War on terror continues...

[SeanAshi]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040228/040228_mideast_hmed11a.hmedium.jpg


GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - An Israeli helicopter fired missiles at a car in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, killing three people — including an Islamic Jihad militant — and wounding 15 others, doctors said.

One of the dead was identified by his family as Islamic Jihad militant Ayman Dahdouh. The other two victims were not immediately identified.

The two missiles targeted a small gray Subaru traveling on a road linking Gaza City with the Jebaliya refugee camp. A thunderous explosion was heard along with the chops of helicopter blades.

Ambulances raced to the scene as a warplane flew overhead, firing flares.

The car was pulverized, and Palestinian security officials strained to keep order around the scene as surging crowds jumped on the wreckage and called for revenge.

The airstrike was carried out in a densely populated residential area, and three children were among the wounded, said doctors at Gaza’s Shifa Hospital. One girl was in critical condition and another boy was seen bleeding from his head.

One of the wounded told The Associated Press from the hospital that a helicopter fired at least two missiles at the vehicle.

Hundreds of people gathered at the hospital to check on the conditions and identities of the casualties. Some gunmen at the morgue were crying.

An Israeli military spokesman said he was checking the report of the airstrike.

Israel has frequently sent helicopter gunships and warplanes to kill Palestinian militants in targeted missile strikes during more than three years of fighting.

The last such strike was Feb. 7, when an attack helicopter fired a missile that shattered a car, killing an Islamic Jihad leader in the vehicle and a 12-year-old boy on his way to school.

[mustamato]

Collateral damage eh?

[AFG]

ah crap response to the Jurusalem bombing

[George W. Bush]

I hope the Palestinians will rise up against Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, and the rest of them

[Kilgor]

Collateral damage eh?

The difference is at least Israel targets are those of a purpose, but of course there is collateral damage.

Suicide bombers dont care, they just want to kill as many people as possible.

[SeanAshi]

I hope the Palestinians will rise up against Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, and the rest of them Doubt that will ever happen but hey...Palestinian civil war breaks out maybe they will just go at each other and not Israel.

Collateral damage eh?
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/0BE94D40-403F-4769-94B3-A55C765AA433/29850/A2BA66A12D804655BEB7A6B7F16242B4.jpg There it is, Al Jazeera web site http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage Although children are never targets sometimes pay the price, Israel regrets the loss of life of the innocence, Palestinian perspective they do not care who dies, women children etc.

[Johnnyringo]

Isn't that true though... the Palestinians will bomb busses, yet splatter pictures of innocent civilians killed by the Isreali's trying to show that they aren't the animals...

Before I get labeled as pro-Isreali let me say both sides SUCK and use the wrong means to protect themselves.

[mustamato]

The difference is that there are some palestinian individuals blowing themselves
up, while the other side uses state-terrorism to assasinate people, regarding
how many innocent children die. All Palestinians can´t be held responsible if some
lunatic blows himself up. But the Israelis can to a highter extenth since they are
a "democratic" country and elect their politicians that take the decisions.

[George W. Bush]

Majority of Palestinians have a huge hard-on for the Jews. They want to drive them into a sea and whatnot. I'm not saying that civilian deaths are acceptable but Israel sees them as collateral damage.

[Johnnyringo]

Aren't those "individuals" then shown as "heroes" on posters and in recruiting tools for others to fill their place? If the Palestinian people weren't behind the militant's to an extent... the problem wouldn't have gotten this far...

Mustamato... are you saying the sole responsibility to end the "war" falls on the Isreali's?

[mustamato]

Mustamato... are you saying the sole responsibility to end the "war" falls on the Isreali's?

No but most of it does. Israel is a so called democracy and a military superpower
in the region. While the Palestinian authority is it just by name, and when they once
upon a time actually had a say in things their work was sabotaged by the Israelis
that decided that Arafat was suddenly a terrorist. Nothing new of course so why
just not ignore old news is beyond me.

Thus there is no authority in the Palestinian territories. And with pressure from
the outside they unite under those groups that exist, Hamas and their friends.
Let us not forget that these groups provide money, healt care, education and so
forth to ordinary palestinians, the option would be nothing. So it´s not especially
strange why the ordinary palestinians support them.

Personally I think that if the Israelis would loosen some of the pressure on the
palestinians, then they would not be as dependent on these groups as Hamas
anylonger, when the real Palestinian authority could get some freedom to act. But
on the contrary, the Israelis only put more pressure on them with the building
of the Berlin Wall 2 etc.

[SeanAshi]

All Palestinians can´t be held responsible if some
lunatic blows himself up Like all heads of state, Arafat is responsible for his peoples actions.
Berlin Wall 2 etc. The security fence is going up to help prevent terrorist from coming into Israel, although its not 100% effective, it will make a differnce, totally diffrent to the Berlin Wall.

[Johnnyringo]

Good fences do not make good neighbors...

How does Hamas give healthcare to ordinary Palestinians? This seems laughable to me considering the fact that the reason helicopter strikes and military incursions into the Palestinian territories occur is because of the likes of Hamas and others?

This question is really going to make me sound like a dumbass... Who funds the militants? Other Arab states? Are they like the IRA... combing through wealthy nations for supporters?

[Kilgor]

Like all heads of state, Arafat is responsible for his peoples actions.

Hes too busy stealing PA funds to line his own pockets.
He doesnt give a **** about "his people"

Btw.. it isnt the berlin wall, you can walk through security points along the wall.

Get your facts straight.

[SeanAshi]

Who funds the militants? Other Arab states?
Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, and alot more.

[UoUo]

Mustamato... are you saying the sole responsibility to end the "war" falls on the Isreali's?

No but most of it does. Israel is a so called democracy and a military superpower
in the region. While the Palestinian authority is it just by name, and when they once
upon a time actually had a say in things their work was sabotaged by the Israelis
that decided that Arafat was suddenly a terrorist. Nothing new of course so why
just not ignore old news is beyond me.

Thus there is no authority in the Palestinian territories. And with pressure from
the outside they unite under those groups that exist, Hamas and their friends.
Let us not forget that these groups provide money, healt care, education and so
forth to ordinary palestinians, the option would be nothing. So it´s not especially
strange why the ordinary palestinians support them.

Personally I think that if the Israelis would loosen some of the pressure on the
palestinians, then they would not be as dependent on these groups as Hamas
anylonger, when the real Palestinian authority could get some freedom to act. But
on the contrary, the Israelis only put more pressure on them with the building
of the Berlin Wall 2 etc.

How much ignorance in 1 post. :cantbeli:

so called democracy
:cantbeli:


their work was sabotaged by the Israelis
that decided that Arafat was suddenly a terrorist :cantbeli:


Personally I think that if the Israelis would loosen some of the pressure on the
palestinians, then they would not be as dependent on these groups as Hamas
anylonger, when the real Palestinian authority could get some freedom to act. But
on the contrary, the Israelis only put more pressure on them with the building
of the Berlin

And what happend between the 1991 until 2001? FFS!!! the palstinian had The chance 2 rise a country 3 years ago....Barak offerd them all!!!

BTW: i told that before..hmm...let's remind you again..
Much much more pal' lives are saved by israeli doctors then the people That lost thier lives by the IDF

[citizen-k]

The difference is that there are some palestinian individuals blowing themselves
up, while the other side uses state-terrorism to assasinate people, regarding
how many innocent children die. All Palestinians can´t be held responsible if some
lunatic blows himself up. But the Israelis can to a highter extenth since they are
a "democratic" country and elect their politicians that take the decisions.

Reading you a person might think Palestinians "lunatics" kill 1-3 Israelis everytime it blows up a bus while Israel is killing 20 kids every time it blows up a car with 3 terrorists in it.

I would like to update you that when a "lunatic" (being funded by the PA, sent by a direct order of Arafat) is blowing himself up it usualy ends with 20 dead Israeli CIVILIANS, while when Israel is blowing up a car it ends up with dead terrorists + 1-3 dead civilians (which were usualy used by the terorrists as human shields)

Maybe you think it's a better idea not to blow up a car risking 3 deads and let 20 other people die for sure, but that's your conscience.

[Elmo]

Citizen-k:
"Maybe you think it's a better idea not to blow up a car risking 3 deads and let 20 other people die for sure, but that's your conscience."


So, one should kill just in case the other one might do it, too?

I want to believe that majority of the people in the area in questions are peaceloving and willing to stop this madness. Unfortunately, it seems, both sides are run by warmongers comparable to well known dictators of the 20th century in regards to their total disrespect for human lives.

When you come to think of it, who really benefits from all this in terms of power? The Israeli conservatives and the Palestinian extremists. As long as things are really violent, they got all the support they need. It's a never-ending circle and THE FENCE is perfect for both sides -it'll help feed agression, yes indeed.

[S'13]

So, one should kill just in case the other one might do it, too?

The people the IDF targets are not trageted because they "might" kill, these are people who have already killed and will surely kill again... :roll:


When you come to think of it, who really benefits from all this in terms of power? The Israeli conservatives and the Palestinian extremists. As long as things are really violent, they got all the support they need. It's a never-ending circle and THE FENCE is perfect for both sides -it'll help feed agression, yes indeed.

Well it doesn't look as if the agression is going to be reduced without a fence, I rather have the Palestinian suicied bombers satay aggressive on the other side of the fence and not blow themselves up in our cities.

[hedgehog]

Simple role reversal.. "Presumed Guilty until proven innocent in the morgue" ...by the way, Arafat is no "real" head of state...there is no state of Palestine.....just people that have been occupied for 50 years. How can the western world condemn suicide bombers yet allow this..? Oh yeah...we make those missles...stupid me. :)

[SeanAshi]

Arafat is no "real" head of state...there is no state of PalestineArafat is the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Palestinian Authorty the offical government of the Palestinian people, and he is still responsible for the terrorist attacks carried out by terror groups Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, he has the ability to arrest terrorist but does not, he is worthles in every way.

[mustamato]

he has the ability to arrest terrorist but does not, he is worthles in every way.

Why do you think he has the ability? Arafat can´t even move within his own
territory without having to pass Israeli checkpoints, and the Israelis have even
forbid him to move within certain areas. To me it seems that Arafats freedom
to act is quite restricted.

[Kilgor]

he has the ability to arrest terrorist but does not, he is worthles in every way.

Why do you think he has the ability? Arafat can´t even move within his own
territory without having to pass Israeli checkpoints, and the Israelis have even
forbid him to move within certain areas. To me it seems that Arafats freedom
to act is quite restricted.

Just because he is restricted to one area, doesnt mean he cannot issue commands to be followed out.

Stop trying to make excuses for this man.

[SeanAshi]

Arafat still retains control of Force 17, couple of months back 3 Americans were killed in Gaza by a terrorist roadside bomb, they were arrested, Arafat not being able to arrest militants is unexceptable, he has the power, he has direct communcations.

[mustamato]

And the Palestinian police can act freely?

[SeanAshi]

And the Palestinian police can act freely? They can arrest militants if given the order, at times Palestinian Police get into shoot outs with the militants, but thats not our problem, while IDF contduct raids its best for the Palestinian Police to run the other way and not interfere, since they wont do their job, Israel will do it for them.

[Seoulstriker]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/0BE94D40-403F-4769-94B3-A55C765AA433/29850/A2BA66A12D804655BEB7A6B7F16242B4.jpg

what kind of injury is that? pressure concussion? it looks like he's bleeding from his nose, and not from his ears so it can't be a pressure concussion. shrapnel? possibly, but that kind of injury would be all over his face and chest (because of how close he must have been to the explosion to get that big of an injury from shrapnel).

can anyone else comment on the injuries? i'm drawing a blank right now. :|

[TALOS]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/0BE94D40-403F-4769-94B3-A55C765AA433/29850/A2BA66A12D804655BEB7A6B7F16242B4.jpg

what kind of injury is that? pressure concussion? it looks like he's bleeding from his nose, and not from his ears so it can't be a pressure concussion. shrapnel? possibly, but that kind of injury would be all over his face and chest (because of how close he must have been to the explosion to get that big of an injury from shrapnel).

can anyone else comment on the injuries? i'm drawing a blank right now. :|
Your right he isnt bleeding from the ears, but when you get a nose bleed it can and often does bleed profusely, from a picture it would be nye impossible to make any accurate or even intelligent diagnoses, he could have bashed his nose or any number of things including some kind of concussive injury.
would need to read the reports from the hospital if they had quoted somewhere.

[Argyll]

Blunt force Trauma?

[Seoulstriker]

yeah, i hadn't thought about an object being hurled towards him from the blast and hitting him in the nose. that would indeed be blunt trauma.

thanks, guys. :)

[SeanAshi]

If he were hit in the face wouldn't there be a gash?

[Seoulstriker]

there might be, there might not be. depends on how strong the blow was. and the bones of children are easily broken, so it wouldn't need to be extraordinarily strong.

[California Joe]

Maybe he got buttstroked in the face.

I'm ruling out "line drive at Little League game" which is what it should be.

[SeanAshi]

Why doesn't Al Jazeera put up pictures on their page of young jews hurt in suicide attacks?

[Seoulstriker]

also why doesn't al jazeera put up high-resolution photos of those 'injured children'. :|

[Maverick77]

Israeil needs to invade palestine and destroy these terror groups were they breed and live.

Take the casualties now and stop this constant killing that will go on forever.

[mustamato]

Israeil needs to invade palestine and destroy these terror groups were they breed and live.

Take the casualties now and stop this constant killing that will go on forever.

Like they have never tried that before. :cantbeli:

[Maverick77]

Israeil needs to invade palestine and destroy these terror groups were they breed and live.

Take the casualties now and stop this constant killing that will go on forever.

Like they have never tried that before. :cantbeli:

Not to the fullest extent.

Theres no way these terrorists militias would be able to stand a Major Isreali army presence inside palestine for awile hunting and killing them everyday.

[mustamato]

Israeil needs to invade palestine and destroy these terror groups were they breed and live.

Take the casualties now and stop this constant killing that will go on forever.

Like they have never tried that before. :cantbeli:

Not to the fullest extent.

Theres no way these terrorists militias would be able to stand a Major Isreali army presence inside palestine for awile hunting and killing them everyday.

How old are you, 15-16? Remember anything from the 80´s? They were occupying
the palestinian territories back in the days. What more can they do. Kill all of them?
Hence the reason to why this intifada going on now is called the second one (the
first one was when then in the 80´s).

[Fox2]

Ah, yes. Another Israel/Palestine thread. Yay. :|

Recently I have been thinking it all through myself, as a descendent of an Israeli-Arab and a pro-Israeli person, here is the conclusion I have come to;

Someone stated earlier in this thread that the majority of Palestinians hate Israelis, etc. This is not the case. Most of the Palestinians infact would like to coexist with Israel. This is evident by looking at the few places where Palestinian and Israeli families come together. There are Israeli-Palestinian schools, cafes, and even entire villages where Israelis and Palestinians come together to eat, learn, and live with each other.

It is a complex situation. On one hand, the Israelis live in a state of fear. They fear for the lives of their children and loved ones because of the Palestinian terror groups. So they are erecting this security barrier to give some sort of security, which in turn can hurt relations between Israel and peaceful Palestinians. On the other hand, the majority of peaceful Palestinians do not condone the terrorist actions, and see this barrier that impedes their way of life by separating their houses from their workplaces, their schools and cities. At the same time, they refuse to accept any sort of responsibility for the actions of the terrorists.

As former Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu said (paraphrase from memory): "Israel would wish for there to be relations and negotiations, that would bring security for both Palestinians and Israelis. But this cannot happen because there are those minority Palestinians who disrupt this process by committing terrorist acts. So there must be security first before negotiations can take place. The security will bring negotiation."

The problem is that the Palestinians that want peace then see this barrier keeping them from living their lives, and so their young men go out and do these terrible things, thinking it will change something.

The dilemna is thus: The Israelis have no choice. The average Israeli is also suffering daily just as the average Palestinian suffers daily. The Palestinians get checkpoints between everywhere they go. At the same time, every Israeli doorstep is a checkpoint. They go through the fear of being killed by some terrorist lunatic every day. Both sides suffer.

There is also the fact that there are more demographics here than just Jewish Israeli and Muslim Palestinian. There are Christian Palestinians and Christian Israelis. I come from a family of the latter.

The Christian Palestinians are the worst off, because they're not only perceived by the rest of the world as terror supporters, but then they also have the Muslims persecuting them as well for being Christian or wanting to coexist with the Israelis.

Obviously, it is a very complex situation and the answer will never be an easy one. You can't really blame the Israelis for wanting to live without the fear of their children being blown up in a bus on the way to school. At the same time, you can't really place the blame squarely on the whole of the Palestinian people. The blame for all this falls on the terrorists, who subvert the peace process, and hurt Palestinians just as much as hey hurt Israelis.

My personal view is that the only way to end this peacefully is the Palestinians that actually want peace would have to resist and fight the terrorists. Once the Palestinians recognize that they are being hurt by the terrorists just as much as the Israelis, there will be more of a chance for peace.

[SeanAshi]

My personal view is that the only way to end this peacefully is the Palestinians that actually want peace would have to resist and fight the terrorists. Once the Palestinians recognize that they are being hurt by the terrorists just as much as the Israelis, there will be more of a chance for peace.
It is not that eazy, the heart of the problem - Temple Mount, Haram al Sharif, holiest site in Judaism, 3rd holiest site in Islam sit on top of each other. http://www.templemount.org/arkcov.gif Don't look inside or you will explode like the nazi's did in that movie. ;)

[Johnnyringo]

Easy solution... abandon religion!
Stop being frigging sheep and think for yourself.

[Truthsayer]

Easy solution... abandon religion!
Stop being frigging sheep and think for yourself.

Amen to that.

[TALOS]

Easy solution... abandon religion!
Stop being frigging sheep and think for yourself.
Problem with that is all men seem to think they are always right so you will still always have confrontation, cuz even without religion humans dont seem to get along too well.

[citizen-k]

Simple role reversal.. "Presumed Guilty until proven innocent in the morgue" ...by the way, Arafat is no "real" head of state...there is no state of Palestine.....just people that have been occupied for 50 years. How can the western world condemn suicide bombers yet allow this..? Oh yeah...we make those missles...stupid me. :)

Correction: Arafat is the "president", "chair man" (leader) of the PA.

He HAD all the power he needed (+ police force which was armed by Israel) in order to control the streets and stop the terror acts.
Not only he didn't stop them - he planed them, funded them and use the police force armed by Israel to attack Israeli cities...

He had his chance and lost it. Now we all need to wait until he will die since the Palestinians will NEVER have a new leader as long as he is alive.

(name one arabic country with a leader on pension)

Like was said here in a previous post, security must come first in order to negotiate with out terror. (Israel doesn't need exploding buses in order to evacuate Gaza - all it needs is to be sure it will be used as a terror base - as it was used after Oslo)

[UoUo]

Ah, yes. Another Israel/Palestine thread. Yay. :|

Recently I have been thinking it all through myself, as a descendent of an Israeli-Arab and a pro-Israeli person, here is the conclusion I have come to;

Someone stated earlier in this thread that the majority of Palestinians hate Israelis, etc. This is not the case. Most of the Palestinians infact would like to coexist with Israel. This is evident by looking at the few places where Palestinian and Israeli families come together. There are Israeli-Palestinian schools, cafes, and even entire villages where Israelis and Palestinians come together to eat, learn, and live with each other.


You are wrong about that...you are talking about israeli arabs that have Citiznship like every other jew or crihstin israeli.

[UoUo]

Easy solution... abandon religion!
Stop being frigging sheep and think for yourself.

Who the **** care about religion right now? the israeili side dosen't fight for religion...stop think like that.

[Elmo]

Not religion?

The instigating factor here is not religion? What is it then? Bad breath?

Too bad we don't have any palestinians posting their comments...but hey, even if somene had such luxury as the internet, their telephone lines are probably bulldozed into pieces.

Yes, I'm a victim of the lying leftist european media and thus incabable of seeing the truth.

[Javehn]

Not religion?

The instigating factor here is not religion? What is it then? Bad breath?

Too bad we don't have any palestinians posting their comments...but hey, even if somene had such luxury as the internet, their telephone lines are probably bulldozed into pieces.

Yes, I'm a victim of the lying leftist european media and thus incabable of seeing the truth.

Can i make a personal attack ? I don't mind the thread, just the person .

First of all , Location :Finland . That would make you (as well as Mustamato) , not compitent to discust this issue (Well , it's pretty clear you are not an "expert" on middle east , nor you have any interest to it ) .
Second : Open MIRC , Undernet. Open channel : Palestine , Pales , Paleb, Rammallah , Jenin , Nablus , that's only the one i know . Internet ? They have ADSL in their home .
Last Israeli Telefon company technicion , that went to repare the lines in Palestinian city, was shot in the head . That technic don't have one luxury . Luxury of life he don't have .

In conclussion : I don't know **** about Finland , but i see strong pattern emmerging here . Shut up .

[George W. Bush]

For some reason I'd live in Israel rather than Finnland. Maybe I like the hot weather.

[UoUo]

Not religion?

The instigating factor here is not religion? What is it then? Bad breath?

Too bad we don't have any palestinians posting their comments...but hey, even if somene had such luxury as the internet, their telephone lines are probably bulldozed into pieces.

Yes, I'm a victim of the lying leftist european media and thus incabable of seeing the truth.


It's not about relgion...for me and most of the people in israel is about Take a bus without blow up.


And who supply them the telephone lines? europe? NOT.

Israel...like we supply them the power..hm..and even gas mask when Iraq bomb us.

[Javehn]

edit

[Elmo]

Javehn,

you are hardly in a position to dictate who is competent to comment on this, or any other topic.

I'd like to let the argumentation be the issue here, not my nationality.

Yes, I'm biased but so are you. It's called difference of opinion.

[Javehn]

Javehn,

you are hardly in a position to dictate who is competent to comment on this, or any other topic.

I'd like to let the argumentation be the issue here, not my nationality.

Yes, I'm biased but so are you. It's called difference of opinion.

you go you . It is called difference of opinion , when you know the facts , but you have your opinion . First off all , you don't even know my opinion . And second , you lack basic information of the conflict . I am hardly in position to comment ? So you do know more about me on this subject ? I see you letting yourself make here posts when you don't know what you are talking about .

Who talking about nationality ? I am saying that the fact you live very far away from the conflict .

[citizen-k]

Not religion?

The instigating factor here is not religion? What is it then? Bad breath?

Too bad we don't have any palestinians posting their comments...but hey, even if somene had such luxury as the internet, their telephone lines are probably bulldozed into pieces.

Yes, I'm a victim of the lying leftist european media and thus incabable of seeing the truth.

The Palestinian side is doing what he does due to religious reasons (open goole, type "jihad" - if your not a Muslim its talking about you too)

Its obvious you have no idea of the situation in Israel so here is a short briefing:
The orthodox Jews in Israel do not join the army and many of them doesn't even vote since they deny the existence of a Jewish state before the messiah's arrival. (according to their belief)
So there goes most of your claim about a religion reason from the Israeli side.

The rest of the population is most of it secular + some "half orthodox" who are the only one's (and they are not a majority - about 10%) who think Israel should stay in the territories for religion reasons.

the rest of the population is Israeli arabs and some others...

The israeli PM is secular, most of the ministers are seculars and 90% of the soldiors in the army are secular - therefor you can understand (I hope) that the Israeli side is not motivated by religious reasons in this conflict.


Israel is only protecting itself from those crazy Euro-supported attacks.

And yes, by "understanding" a person who blows up a school bus full of kids (in order to kill kids) you are supporting his action.

[Elmo]

Javehn,

or should I say Sir Objectivity, because I got this impression that you claim to be above the issue. Your attack on me just doesn't fit into that scenario.

And hey, you brought up the word "Finland" and made remarks about it, not me. It's true that I don't hang around in Gaza strip, though. It's also true that I don't know every single detail about the conflict, I simply base my opinion on the media and have come to think that my symphaty somewhat lies with the palestinians, because state terrorism with all it's rationality sends chills down my spine.

I'd like to stress the word somewhat. The palestinians are to blame as well as the israelis...violence never seems to end over there.

[citizen-k]

Not religion?

The instigating factor here is not religion? What is it then? Bad breath?

Too bad we don't have any palestinians posting their comments...but hey, even if somene had such luxury as the internet, their telephone lines are probably bulldozed into pieces.

Yes, I'm a victim of the lying leftist european media and thus incabable of seeing the truth.

BS

The phone lines are working fine (so does electricity and water) - otherwise it will be very complicated to track down the targets for the "72 virgins on the house" sale.

(its called intelligence - but don't tell! due to my avatar you can understand I know where you live ;) rofl )

[Javehn]

I simply base my opinion on the media

NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYYYYY
NOOOOOOOOOOOO FREEEKING WAYYYY
I never couldn't tell .
MEDIA ISN'T BIASED :| :oops: .
woot

[Elmo]

citizen-k,

I thought the state of Israel was established because there is a religious claim that it is a promised land.

That pretty much makes it a religious issue.

Fundamentally it comes down to religion, whether the Israeli PM is secular or not.

[citizen-k]

citizen-k,

I thought the state of Israel was established because there is a religious claim that it is a promised land.

That pretty much makes it a religious issue.

Fundamentally it comes down to religion, whether the Israeli PM is secular or not.

No

It was established after people agreed Jews should have their own state.
(Guess when why and where it was decided...)

Don't mix history (5000 years old) with religion.
Where do you think this state should have been established other then Israel? The moon?

Give me your house and I'll leave Israel to the Palestinians in return.


I'm secular, I don't hate Arabs for racial reasons (or any reason) but still would be more then happy to push the button which will produce the next 72 virgins series.

[Javehn]

It is as religios as lawfull claim . Jews have never given up on Israel , it is taking legal form in the praises , and in the fact , that Jewish community lived in Israel for the last 2000 years , from time to time getting to Israel . And i thought that Citizen-K made it clear , that ortodox jews against the state of Israel , sence it is bellieved by them , that the state should established by Messia .
And there is no "hooly Jerusalem" mentioned one time in Kurran . Nop , not one time . How it's became suddenly so hoolly for them ? "Palestinians" never considered Israel as their state in , how much , 7 centuries they live in here . No way . It is because their beloved Arabs brother didn't wanted to ecsept them , we got stuck with them , and they decided to call themself Palestinian , sence no one wants them .

I have strange feeling Mr. Nielsen is gonna join this soon .

[Fox2]

You are wrong about that...you are talking about israeli arabs that have Citiznship like every other jew or crihstin israeli.

Yes, that is true of many Israeli-Arabs. But I have also met a lot of Palestinians (or even just arabs) that wish for peace with Israel. It is true. Indeed, I have met also many Israelis (infact almost all) who would wish for peace with the Palestinians.

There are also Christian Palestinians. Who are not Israeli, but Palestinian. Like I said, they are the worst off. Both lumped together with the extremist Palestinians and persecuted by the Muslims. I know some of these people, and been in their homes. The problem I have seen with most of these peaceful Palestinians is that they do not see the cause and effect. They do not see that the homicide bombers hurt them just as much as they hurt the Israelis.

[Elmo]

Can you extract religion out of history as an independent non-political being?

I'd say no.

Also, I woudn't want to go into debating over persecution of the Jews as a justification for the State of Israel. What was decided after WWII stands and that's it.

Today, dreadful things happen all the time and there is no way the both sides
are not to blame for this. My being symphatetic towards the palestinians might irritate you. Too bad.

[Javehn]

Good for you , you are the man . You simpatetic to Palestinians , and all we wanna do is to kill them . We enjoy that , you know . Nothing more fun for me , to see someone house getting buldosed , or a young boy getting killed . That does it for us . We want it to continue without a stop . And we really don't care that because of this every week the autobus is blown . We just too hate ourself and everybody else . Yes , that's how we are . And when i see the ****y condittions some of them live , boy oh boy , i am extatic .
Bomb the Palestinian authority , and raise it with the ground .We fanatic religious jews kill em all , because that's what the messia talled us to do .

What an angel you are , Elmo . You are simpatetic to those suffering Palestinians , while we are bloud thirsty jews don't care about them .
Your ignorence showing .

[mustamato]

What an angel you are , Elmo . You are simpatetic to those suffering Palestinians , while we are bloud thirsty jews don't care about them .
Are you simpatetic to terrorists also ?

This with nationality. Finns are not exactly known to be anti-jew. During world
war 2 Finland was allied with Germany, but didn´t exactly kill of their jews or
anything. After world war 2 Finland was a supporter of the newly independent
Israel. Seems like finns like to cheer on the underdog.

At the moment the underdog is the Palestinians. Since Israel is friend with USA
they don´t need anyone else cheering for them. And I don´t think that just because
you have some sympathy for the Palestinian cause you are a "terrorist-sympathizer".
Personally I think that it´s possible to have both a Palestinian and a Israeli state
existing side by side.

[Javehn]

Allright . Cheer them up , that's your right , no ? But just i thought that there are more then half miliard simpatetic Muslims in the world . EU union that is simpatetic (and now investigating the money that they give to Palestinian authority , and it went to terrorism ) . So how come the Palestinian live in **** condition . It is not llike Africa , where much more people suffering , and no one gives a damn. Everybody is crying how much bad we treat them . So , if everybody is so care , why they still living in **** situation .

Even more , why we giving them , and they spitting back at our faces ? My good friend was killed 9 month ago on Erez zone . That's an Israeli industrial zone , that was build , in order to provide job to Palestinian living in Gaza . Terrorists descuised themselfes as workers , and thrue this zone attacked an army base , and killed 4 soldiers .
2 days ago same thing happend . Somewhere like month ago the same happend . We giving them work , and how they use it ? They **** on us .

I simpatetic to the fact that they live in **** a bit more then Elmo , sence i know how they live . But every help that is given to them , is comming back at us , wit ha little **** on a side. It is mostly the fault of Arafat .

We , don't have nothing against Palestinians as a people . They are made themself underdog , not us . If they want to continue live in **** , that is just their choice .

[mustamato]

To me it seems that both sides need each other. Israel has not exactly a blooming
economy, it needs the Palestinian workers that work for nothing. And the Palestinians
need the money they get, because there are not exactly any major industries
in the Palestinian territories. Nor will there be in the near future.

Arafat will die soon. I don´t think much will change when he dies. There will come
some new dude that the Israelis will blaim everything on, "he doesn´t arrest the
terrorists, he puts all the money in his pockets" etc etc and all those accusations
we have all heard before. If I were the commander of Mossad I would convince
Sharon and his friends about having a calm period and not putting pressure
on the Palestinians, then I would have Arafat killed, "natural causes". And with this
calm period there might come some new moderate more Israel-friendly dude to
power in PA. Then things might look a little better. Perhaps. But the hardcore
islamists wouldn´t be happy of course.

[Elmo]

Javehn,

I could possibly have no idea how it is to live where you do. I'm truly sorry for what you have experienced.

But calling me ignorant on the basis of the fact that I don't agree with you just showed how you lost your composure by going erratic and thus abandoned the basic rules of argumentation.

You can't draw conclusions about my stance out of thin air. I should feel offended by your overreaction.

[Javehn]

I am not calling you ignorent . I am telling you , that you are incompitent to make the dessisions you make about this matter , based on what you saw on TV . That's just not fair , for any side . You shouldn't be offended or something .

[UoUo]

[quote="mustamato"]To me it seems that both sides need each other. Israel has not exactly a blooming
economy, it needs the Palestinian workers that work for nothing.[quote]


Please exsplain yourself..what do you mean not blooming economy?

And BTW: we don't need the pal' workers...with plenty of chinese..warm And nice people..as far as i know.

[Andersson]

It seems to me that people are speaking "different languages" here. When someone raises a certain question, it´s almost impossible for everyone else to see what he or she is really trying to say. You are talking about religion and violence, big issues, and still are not able to avoid some verbal details that really shouldn´t matter.

It´s about killing people. And you are trying to argument, which side is more allowed to do it. The conflict is never going to end if people refuse to listen each other in stead of really trying to understand what causes these violent attitudes - on both sides.

And about the role of the media. It´s obvius that most of the people base their opinions on what they see and hear in media. But to be honest, in western countries the propaganda is almost totally working for Israel. Also here in Finland. We only see evil palestinians bombing innecent jews (which is only half of the truth) and the forces of Israel are uaually shown as saviors and rescuers.

It´d be nice to be an objective voice but it´s not possible for anyone. The cricis is too intense and doesn´t allow any neutral attitudes.

[Elmo]

Javehn,

so I'm incompetent because I don't have first hand experience? I am just a victim of false propaganda?

Fine. I'll go to see a hyphnotizer who'll erase my memory concerning this conflict. Then I'll fly there to see it myself.

Scenario 1: I come to live permanently in your neighborhood. I'll experience opinions similar to yours and will get to know the fear of suicide bombers. I'll adobt your values. Perhaps I'll lose a friend. I most likely became pro-Israeli.

Scenario 2: I go to live permanently in Gaza strip. Will see surgical airstrikes. I'll adobt palestinian values. Will most likely become pro-Palestinian.

However, I'd rather stay here up north and stay slightly symphatetic to Palestinian cause, yet both sides are to blame. Killing is terrible.


Javehn,
By the competence given to me by the Finnish Army Signals Forces, I can tell we are operating on different frequences, no sync.

[Javehn]

Dear god , mate (i ain't no British) , what do you want from me ?

We in Israel don't live in midle ages , or religios fanatic country , or in Africa (i appologise to anybody that might offend him) where people die in masses . We have media , where reporters tells the Palestinian point of view , as well as Israeli . If anything , the amount of Israeli reporters telling the Palestinian side is much bigger then the Israeli (most of our newspapers controlled by Liberals ) . We have high justice court .

Add another option : You enlisted to army , went to Palestinian cities , and wittnessed the missery they live in . As many others , you feel the missery is unjustified . You know what the army does there , so you can compare . You spend some time talking to Palestinians .

Politicians are **** everywhere , what do you want me to say ? But the reason for suffery is not our politics .

I am not shure why you think we out of fase . I am saying that i am more familiar with Palestinians . We are not deaf and blind , we know they are suffering . I would personaly do everything to stop this .

[Argyll]

Here we go again............if this BS keeps up I'll lock it!

I will not speak for the Israeli's here who have to endure the threat of terrorism on a daily basis,having lived under similar conditions I can assure you it is not pleasent,you are constantly on a knife edge,and you simply mistrust everyone who looks at you .

Every single time these threads start up,they end up the same way,and it looks like a pretty familiar pattern invoving a particular Scandinavian country voicing it's displeasure at the Israeli's here............it's getting tiresome and annoying ,what starts off informative soon descends into the rights and wrongs of the Israeli's and the Palestinians from people who are just not aware what it's like to live in fear,where the friendly face waving to you one day is the same face looking down the sights of an RPG at you the next day!!.

These arguments never accomplish anything....other than ill feeling and accusations.............I will start to lock threads that continue to descend into mudslinging with this particular Region of the Middle East

[Elmo]

"The reason for suffery is not our politics."

I could possibly not disagree more. I think your word "politics" differs from mine drastically. As I said, no sync.

[Javehn]

Allright , have it your way .You think no sync , and you know it all about our politics , have it your way . I don't want to stear the moderator , so if you like , just search the archives of forum . It has more then enough information about this matter . Search for Israel , Palestine , or both .

[obd]

Ok lets see and how is Israel supposed to stop the violence when you have Palestinians saying they will never stop until Israel is destroyed and all Jews murdered eh....tell me that Mustamoto. Funny how your rationale is so razor sharp and focused that it ignores all other issues you previously argue for like giving Palestinaisn autonomy etc...Well terror attacks come from areas where they have that autonomy because they use those safe zones to make bombs and organize. Hardly any terror attacks come from Gaza however which is virtualy lockdown,...

so which way do you want it Mustamoto eh......you want Israel to take control and become a ¨occupier¨of more land and a ¨tyrant¨or you want them to lay off and give Palestinains more freedom eh.......... Either way it seems you blame it on them.....at least to me at does........

Fact of the matter is this, if Palestinians were to lay down all weapons and declare to seek peace then there would be peace. If Israel were to lay down its arms then it would be wiped out.

Next fact is that the issue is not just Palestine and Israel. I wish it were so simple but fact is that Arab nations are fueling the war as well because the ysee it as onyl way to acheive their goals of Israel destroyed and a second holocaust of Jews which they failed to ahieve in 50s, 60s and 70s

US simply supplies Israel with weapons so that other nations fear to attack it......Egypt for example has powerful miltary and has attempted several times to organize Israels destruction.......so has Iran, Irak, Syria, and Jordan...so please be a littel fair to Israelis who are surrounded on all sides by enemy naitons..........

[SeanAshi]

How about creating a section on this forum for flaming? :D

[Argyll]

How about creating a section on this forum for flaming? :D


Probably a good idea ;)

[Javehn]

That's actually a good idea , so it work on other forums .