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Yard Ape
02-29-2004, 03:35 AM
ISAF must grow and permanent security must be established through Afghanistan or everything gained through the war will be lost:

Taliban lurches back to power
By HAMIDA GHAFOUR
From Saturday's Globe and Mail (http://globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040228.wtalib28/BNStory/Front/) 28 Feb 04

Shah Joy, Afghanistan — The intimidation tactics are simple, if horribly brutal.

A convoy of about 20 Honda motorcycles surrounds a house, looking for people who support the United States or President Hamid Karzai. If they find one, they kill him. If not, the householders are beaten to serve as a warning to others.

In the village of Shah Joy, about 300 kilometres southwest of Kabul, the return of the Taliban has been swift and harsh, as it is in about one-third of Afghanistan's southern regions where the ousted regime has regrouped and is widely thought to be preparing for a spring offensive against the Karzai government and its U.S. allies.

Even as U.S. and Pakistani forces carry out a major operation against al-Qaeda supporters to the east, the people of Zabul province have come under attack by a much more entrenched enemy. According to officials here, Shah Joy is like 70 per cent of the province — it is either controlled by supporters of the Taliban or completely lawless.

"They come day and night. They are lying near the mountains and sometimes even in the mosques," said Haji Mohammed, a 28-year-old soldier who said his two brothers were severely beaten because he works for the local government.

"My brothers were beaten in the mosque in open daylight. Their hands and feet were tied and the men wanted to take them away. But with the help of the village elders they were released. Since one year I cannot go home. They would not let me live."

Local military officials believe that 700 Taliban fighters — all ethnic Pashtuns — have crossed the border from the Pakistani cities of Peshawar and Quetta, where they are trained and funded. The insurgents have offered a motorbike, AK-47 assault rifle and satellite telephone to anyone willing to steal from, rob or bomb a government target. A successful hit is worth $265,CDN according to military officials. Killing an enemy comes with a $1,200 bonus.

General Ayoub Khan, the security commander for Zabul, says some of the Taliban commanders are Pakistani, although it is difficult to confirm because many extended Pashtun families straddle the border.

"In the Dai Chopan district there are reports of Punjabi commanders," Gen. Khan said.

"We arrested two [Taliban members] a month ago and they told us Pakistani colonels told them to destabilize Afghanistan."

If the Taliban's strategy is to make Zabul too difficult for the central government and international aid agencies to work in, it has worked. The situation is so volatile that the United Nations and large non-government organizations have stopped working in Zabul. According to local officials, Taliban commanders have also issued death warrants against any journalist entering the province.

The villagers of Shah Joy, about two-thirds along the only road from Kabul to the former Taliban base of Kandahar, say they are torn: They can either support a moderate government struggling to rebuild the country, or support the Taliban in a bid to survive.

"They are taking advantage of our poverty," Gen. Khan said of the Taliban. "The administration is weak and incapable of controlling an area, therefore the local people are not relying on them."

Along the main road through the province, the Taliban have set up daytime road blocks. They scrutinize vehicles for potential targets to kill or kidnap. Four engineers working on that road have been kidnapped, and 15 Afghans working for the central government have been killed in the past three months.

Mohammed Azghar, a former member of the Taliban who is now a soldier working for the local government, said that in villages where there are virtually no jobs, and the grape and almond farms have been turned to dust by a seven-year drought, the money is tempting.

"I killed two Taliban commanders and they had 200,000 Afghanis [$6,200] in their pockets and a pistol," he said. "A soldier here does not make that much money. The commanders distribute the money to fighters and say, 'Go burn a school, we will give you money. Go rob a house, we will give you money.'."

Mr. Karzai has replaced Zabul's governor three times in the past 15 months. The previous one survived an assassination attempt at his home. The current one, Mullah Khail Mohammed Hosani, is a former Taliban member who is trying to persuade district commissioners allied to the militants to support the central government instead.

"We are optimistic," he said. "When I met with some tribal leaders they said they are not against the non-governmental organizations but against cruel men in the current administration. In the two decades of war, the government was imposed on the people. I am negotiating with local communities so we can understand each other."

The Americans, on the other hand, are attempting to win the hearts of Afghans with the promise of reconstruction. Next month, the military plans to set up a provincial reconstruction team in Qalat, the local capital. The unit will consist of up to 100 people and provide security and aid to rebuild roads, schools and clinics. It is hoped the team's presence will establish a secure environment, especially in the remote villages, for other charities to return.

"The key thing is reconstruction," said Lieutenant-Colonel Jim Ellifrit, the team's commander. "The stories are getting around the province that Qalat has roads and electricity. When some of those guys realize the country is progressing and they are being left behind, they will ask themselves, 'What are we fighting for?'."

The province has been a hotbed of anti-American sentiment since the Taliban regime collapsed in October of 2001 under heavy U.S. bombing and advancing forces from the Northern Alliance. Senior Taliban members are thought to have sought refuge in the mountains that run from here to the Pakistani tribal areas, where, according to widespread but unconfirmed reports, Osama bin Laden is hiding along with his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Zabul's deputy governor, Malawi Mohammed Omar, said the Americans face a difficult task because they are not talking to the local communities to find out who is an enemy and who is not. Many Taliban fighters are from local villages and it is easy for them to hide in homes of relatives.

"They would not recognize Mullah Omar if he stood in front of them," the deputy governor said. "All the Taliban have to do is put down their gun and say hello — no one would know him. Until the Americans are on the ground, and negotiating with the local community leaders and disarming them, they will not win.

"People are too afraid of the Taliban. But they are not optimistic about the government's future so they support them. If they fight against the Taliban, they will have nothing."

mustamato
02-29-2004, 03:53 AM
"They would not recognize Mullah Omar if he stood in front of them," the deputy governor said. "All the Taliban have to do is put down their gun and say hello — no one would know him. Until the Americans are on the ground, and negotiating with the local community leaders and disarming them, they will not win."

Well. And the odds that US is sending 100.000 soldiers to Afghanistan to
patrol the countryside is not that big I guess. So...

Yard Ape
02-29-2004, 03:58 AM
...And the odds that US is sending 100.000 soldiers to Afghanistan to patrol the countryside is not that big I guess. So...That is why I feel ISAF must grow. The terrorism that was in Afghanistan was an international problem/threat and the international community should shoulder the burden.

mustamato
02-29-2004, 04:08 AM
...And the odds that US is sending 100.000 soldiers to Afghanistan to patrol the countryside is not that big I guess. So...That is why I feel ISAF must grow. The terrorism that was in Afghanistan was an international problem/threat and the international community should shoulder the burden.

Meaning what, that the rest of the world should send 100.000 soldiers to patrol
the Afghani countryside and make them US-loving people? That´s not going
to happen. Afghanistan have been occupied many times but killing of a culture
that is several thousand years old is not done just like that. The British made
a attempt and failed, as did all the rest of them.

Actually "winning" would require a full commitment, no one is interested in paying
for that, either with money or with the blood. USA started the war, let them
finish it, it´s not the "international community´s" responsibility to clean up afterwards,
US had the resources for a full commitment before they decided to attack Iraq.
No it´s just too late to fix the damage.

Mark Sman
02-29-2004, 06:44 AM
If the US pulled out and let Afghanistan plunge further into chaos, the effects would be worse for Europe than the U.S.

This is one reason why the ISAF has such wide support. Another is the simple humanitarian misson to help these people that have been pretty well f'ed over for like a thousand years.

I would like to thank the many countries that have contributed to this effort, but I shouldn't. The people who should thank you are the Afghanis, and many of them do. Many thank Allah that the ISAF is there every day.



Meaning what, that the rest of the world should send 100.000 soldiers to patrol
the Afghani countryside and make them US-loving people?

Lace up your boots good when you leap to conclusions like that. Please find anything in the preceding posts that makes this statement relevant.


USA started the war, let them
finish it, it´s not the "international community´s" responsibility to clean up afterwards,

Very seldom does it seem to be the "international community´s" responsibility. In this case most countries can plainly see that it is in their best interest. That is why so many are there.

The US didn't create Afghanistan's problems. As a matter of fact the people most responsible for Afghanistan being such a dump are the Afghanis. That place was a pit long before the US went there to dig out the A holes that were using the place to organise and train extremist knuckleheads.

I know some folks memories aren't that good, but I'm pretty sure there was some sorta motivating event that led us to invade this Crapistan anyway. Hmmmm, wonder what it was.

Open your mind. Attempt to learn from what you read, not judge it..

Yard Ape
02-29-2004, 06:13 PM
Meaning what, that the rest of the world should send 100.000 soldiers to patrol the Afghani countryside and make them US-loving people?No. The rest of the world should send soldiers to secure freedom for the average Afghani and to ensure that we (as a planet) are not again threatened by terrorists living unchecked in that nation


Afghanistan have been occupied many times but killing of a culturethat is several thousand years old is not done just like that. The British made a attempt and failed, as did all the rest of them. Nobody has suggested 'killing" the culture. Only to establish conditions where democracy, civil rights, and personal security can flourish.


USA started the war, let them finish it, it´s not the "international community´s" responsibility to clean up afterwardsThe US did not go into that war alone. The US was not the only country that had a stake in that war. All of the Western world belonged there.


No it´s just too late to fix the damage.Defeatist?

pAt
02-29-2004, 07:15 PM
i think Canada should expand its role in the afgan mission to probably more mountain ops on the borders and flush out terriost or just send in a company out in the mountains for a week or so

Maverick77
02-29-2004, 07:59 PM
i think Canada should expand its role in the afgan mission to probably more mountain ops on the borders and flush out terriost or just send in a company out in the mountains for a week or so

Without a doubt....

I can go to some places of my province and walk for Months without seeing anyone.

My provice is much smaller than Afghanistan and has 1 million people in it.

So just think about that for a sec 11k men is far from enough.

usa320
02-29-2004, 08:49 PM
I cant see afghanistan going back to how it was before october 7 of 2001.

There is a decent government, some degree of an economy, a national army...ect...

The people tehre are enjoying their new freedoms, and i really dont see them wanting to go back to the old way.

Yard Ape
03-12-2004, 09:48 PM
The people tehre are enjoying their new freedoms, and i really dont see them wanting to go back to the old way.If you look into the current situation, you will see that the people are not enjoying this new freedom outside of Kabul and the reach of ISAF.


There is ... a national armyand it is too weak to exert its influence to bear throughout its own borders. It is very conceavable that the Taliban could coble together a force strongh enough to defeat this military on the battle field.

Vance
03-12-2004, 09:55 PM
USA started the war
:cantbeli:

Flagg
03-13-2004, 01:16 AM
I've spent some time with two guys on exercise recently who were with the Kiwi PRT(Provincial Reconstruction Team) in Bahmian Province.....since they were there...I'll go with what they told me:

the place is a mess

but they're making progress, both with basic infrastructure repair/construction...and with the local populace

but there's still a long way to go until the average Afghani is enjoying even a second world existence

I'm no expert...but these guys make it sound like it's a very long-term engineering and civil affairs effort...as well as a lot of "train the trainer" type law enforcement/security stuff

Sixgun Symphony
03-13-2004, 01:52 AM
We gotta go after the source of their funds. They got too much money and that is causing problems.

Flagg
03-13-2004, 02:12 AM
We gotta go after the source of their funds. They got too much money and that is causing problems.

From what I understand AQ funding mostly comes form the following two sources:

largesse/blackmail/extortion of oil producers/wealth

largesse/blackmail/extortion of drug producers/wealth


Not a simple black and white answer

Ichhabe
03-13-2004, 02:23 AM
We gotta go after the source of their funds. They got too much money and that is causing problems.

From what I understand AQ funding mostly comes form the following two sources:

largesse/blackmail/extortion of oil producers/wealth

largesse/blackmail/extortion of drug producers/wealth


Not a simple black and white answer

One of the largest suppliers for opium and heroine are in Afghanistan.
An intersting question is why wount the international community root that problem out?

And I bet that paying farmers top dollars to end it, will come out must cheaper in the long run than stopping the heroine traffic in Europe and on the American continent.

Backis
03-13-2004, 03:32 AM
We gotta go after the source of their funds. They got too much money and that is causing problems.

From what I understand AQ funding mostly comes form the following two sources:

largesse/blackmail/extortion of oil producers/wealth

largesse/blackmail/extortion of drug producers/wealth


Not a simple black and white answer

One of the largest suppliers for opium and heroine are in Afghanistan.
An intersting question is why wount the international community root that problem out?

And I bet that paying farmers top dollars to end it, will come out must cheaper in the long run than stopping the heroine traffic in Europe and on the American continent.

Note that the Talib's were dead set against poppy growing, and the production of opium during Taliban rule may have been the lowest of the century.

The guys we put in charge after ousting those bastards though, they don't mind the drug money...


BIG mistake dropping Afghanistan before it was finished to go hunting Saddam...

Ichhabe
03-13-2004, 03:44 AM
Backis said:


Note that the Talib's were dead set against poppy growing, and the production of opium during Taliban rule may have been the lowest of the century.

Maybe up to 1998 they were. But as all other criminal organizations that see their money well drain in they understood that it was for them a bad idea and a huge loss of money.
They put out a decree that it was in the interest of Allah that they grew opium so it could be selled in Europe and America. Cause that was a nobel fight, and killing us from within.


The guys we put in charge after ousting those bastards though, they don't mind the drug money...

Afghanistan is not runned from Kabul yet. The warlords in the different provinces are taxing the drug traffic heavilly. Maybe some dollars run in to Kabul, but that I do not know.


BIG mistake dropping Afghanistan before it was finished to go hunting Saddam...

Afghanistan wount be finnished, even if we engaged a million soldiers.
And in my opinion, smoking Saddam Hussein out was more important than going in to Afghanistan.
But that is only my opinion.