Forgotten soldier - Guy Sajer .... one word comes to mind Incredible!

[Johnny_H02]

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4784/157488285601lzzzzzzz5lg.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=157488285601lzzzzzzz5lg.jpg)

Forgotten Soldier
by Guy Sajer (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-ca&field-author=Sajer%2C%20Guy/701-7993839-8505149) (Author)

From Amazon.ca


Editorial Reviews

Life Magazine
"A work of soul." --This text refers to the Paperback (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1574882864/701-7993839-8505149) edition. New York Times
"I don't thin anyone who reads [it] to the end will ever forget it."

I have to start this post off by stating I am well aware of the controversy of this book, that there are those who believe it to be false that it was just a clever novel and not a memior and if you google the book you will find the debate between two US Officers of noteworthey mention who have stirred up the hornets nest on the debate of this books authenticity....

That being said the truth is really up to the reader, and I not only believe this mans story but I applaud it. I have not read a book so powerfull since Erich Maria Remarqes All Quiet on the Western Front. Guy sajer a 17 year old kid whos mother was German and Father was french, lived in in a Alsace area, where it was mostly split of germans and french. He was called into the Wermacht and went to the Russian front as a truck driver, now by the time you are reading this part of the book you are hooked, He then volenteers for the GrossDeutschland division ( Greater Germany Division ) and from here on out as it was in the beggining he shows that he is truely gifted as to how he tells his story, other memiors you are aware you are reading something that has been brought to you through recollection and after thought. This book you walk in sajers boots, you hear the shrieks of the wounded and his desperate cries for an end to it all, you literally feel the earth twist and turn underneath him as shells which never diminish in abundance try to pound him into the same puddle of muck that keeps his head low enough so as he does not lose it.

add to this the frozen environment he was tossed into and you truely are horrified, intrigued, often times I even forgot this was a book and was wondering if Sajer's luck would run out. it truely grabs you by the throat its the most physically exausting book I have ever read and I will read this one many times for years to come. The end of the book which I will not dare spoil even had me close to tears? something books or movies have never done to me. This book is a must have, its a look in the face of war as its meant to be seen, you watch this proud kid go from being just a normal kid to a walking breathing ( barely ) apathetic hopeless shell of his former self, the only thing that keeps him alive is the very faint hopes of seeing his sweetheart who he met on leave, or the very slight chance he can go home again, with no thought to the fact that when he got home he was more terrified then he was at the front.


Trust me, I would encourage anyone to read this book, not just military enthusiests, not just soldiers or any paticular group, everyone and anyone should read this. No other books will compare.

wootwootwoot

[nognig]

I've added to my list of books to read. Thanks for the recommendation.

NN

[Hullebullen]

I have it somewhere in my book pile and it is really a good read...I'd recommend Gotlobb Biedermann's "In deadly combat" and "Tigers in the mud" by Otto Carius. Two very good german ww2 first-hand accounts...

[Johnny_H02]

I have it somewhere in my book pile and it is really a good read...I'd recommend Gotlobb Biedermann's "In deadly combat" and "Tigers in the mud" by Otto Carius. Two very good german ww2 first-hand accounts...
Yeah I am going to lay off the WWII books for a while so far I have read in the last short while

Black Edelweisse - Johan Voss ( a second time )
All Quiet on the Western front - Erich Maria Remarqe ( not WW2 but its still about the german army just a mere generateion befor )
Sniper on the Eastern Front : Memiors of Sepp Allerberger
Grenadiers - Kurt meyer
Meeting of Generals - Tony Foster
Forgotten Soldier - Guy Sajer
Seven Days in Jaunary the 6th SS Nord Division in operation Nordwind - Wolf t Zoefp


Next im reading some books on the Zulu war, just to break the mold a bit.
I have heard both good and bad things of the books you reccomend, I heard Otto Carius's account is rather arrogant ( Tigers were like the Micheal Jordan of the German armed forces though so I cant blame the guy for having a ego )

when I go back to my WWII books I might check out those two you reccomended. Sajers book is far more then just "A Good read" though.

[Hullebullen]

Yeah I am going to lay off the WWII books for a while so far I have read in the last short while

Next im reading some books on the Zulu war, just to break the mold a bit.
I have heard both good and bad things of the books you reccomend, I heard Otto Carius's account is rather arrogant ( Tigers were like the Micheal Jordan of the German armed forces though so I cant blame the guy for having a ego )

when I go back to my WWII books I might check out those two you reccomended. Sajers book is far more then just "A Good read" though.

You should definitely read those two if you like reading first-hand accounts. I've also read quite a few of the german first-hand accounts available in english and those two are among my favourites...

[Kekkonen]

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm
The forgotten soldier: Fact or fiction?

But except those points I have to agree, great book! And since Guy Sajer was speaking from own experience I have no problems with the book really. It's like the novel Unknown soldier (Tuntematon sotilas) by Väinö Linna, the main plot is based on his wartime unit, and so are the soldiers but some parts of the story is made up by the author, but so what, someone that was there during the war knows how it was.

[California Joe]

I read it a long time ago on the advice of the base librarian. I thought it was a great book.

[intrinsic]

Want a good read? Many Rivers I've Crossed- First hand account of a member of the Flak Ablt of the 3 SS panzer division Totenkopf, his time in russia, his capture and his service in the British forces in the Late 50's early 60's! Only 500 copies world wide! many signed with personal dedications by the Author-Werner Volkner

[Johnny_H02]

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm
The forgotten soldier: Fact or fiction?

But except those points I have to agree, great book! And since Guy Sajer was speaking from own experience I have no problems with the book really. It's like the novel Unknown soldier (Tuntematon sotilas) by Väinö Linna, the main plot is based on his wartime unit, and so are the soldiers but some parts of the story is made up by the author, but so what, someone that was there during the war knows how it was.
Yeah but if you read that there are valid points on both sides, both Kennedy and Nash make thier arguments, and I tend to side with the one that favors giving Sajer the benefit of the doubt.

For example I was in Sea Cadets as a teenager, and I cant remember half of the shyte they taught me ( was between 14-17 ) and im 23 now, now throw me in the infantry as a 17year old whos second language was german, in the hell of the eastern front, constant deprivation, starvation, suffering, death, trauma, horror, for a few years of the life of a impressionable teenager?

Then recall those painfull memories years later, trying to comprehend what you lived through and pen them to paper? I seriously doubt a "Accurate" book that can be analyzed by higher ups is possible any more then the General Staff the german army was involved in the welfare of the common soldiers in the field.


I just thinkthat a little slack could be cut to Mr.Sajer, for historical and small errors in the book.

[KB]

Some great books on individual combat experience in WWII; I'd welcome suggestions from others.

German: The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer; enough already said.

German (Luftwaffe): I flew for the Fuhrer by Heinz Knoke: Luftwaffe fighter pilot, largely recounts aerial combat against US daylight bombing in 1943-44.

American (Pacific): With the Old Breed by Eugene Sledge: retired biology professor reminisces of his service with 1stMarineDivision on Peleliu and Okinawa.

American (ETO-Air): Serenade to the Big Bird by Bert Stiles: B17 pilot memoir of service with 91st BG in spring/summer 1944, (later killed over Germany in Nov 1944 flying P51s).

American (ETO-Ground):Our War for the World: Brendan Phibbs. distinguished US heart surgeon's memoirs of service as a infantry battalion surgeon in 1944-45.

American (ETO-Ground); Those Devils in Baggy Pants: Ross Carter. Memoir of paratrooper in 1st Bn, 504th PIR, 82nd Airborne Division.

[Jedburgh]

...there was a thread discussing the authenticity of this book in this forum a few months back: The Forgotten Soldier (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61602)

[Jedburgh]

Some great books on individual combat experience in WWII; I'd welcome suggestions from others.
If You Survive, by George Wilson. The guy was with 4th ID from Normandy to the end of the war. He was the only one of his company at the landings who made it through to the end of the war.

...although not really a first-person combat soldier piece, Brave Men by Ernie Pyle is a must-read for anyone interested in WWII. It's a collection of his newspaper columns from '43 to '44 (for which he won the Pulitzer), in which he writes about combat in Europe from the GI's perspective. Ernie Pyle was killed by enemy fire at Okinawa in '45.

[AngloSino]

Yeah I borrowed Sajer's book back in 2003 from a friend. It's damn good. Very touching and dramatic. His reports of the Eastern front are incredible.

The way he described the artillery blasts from the Red Army, I'll never forget. "It's like getting all the air sucked out of your lungs."

[Argyll]

Great book........ a must read for any Military buff

[KB]

[Brave Men by Ernie Pyle is a must-read for anyone interested in WWII. It's a collection of his newspaper columns from '43 to '44 (for which he won the Pulitzer), in which he writes about combat in Europe from the GI's perspective. Ernie Pyle was killed by enemy fire at Okinawa in '45.

...His filing on 10 Jan 1944 "The Death of Captain Waskow" was incredible.

[Atlantic Friend]

Although the man's political ideals (for which he shows no atonement, not even after what was known in 1946 of the Nazi crimes) are profoundly repugnant to me, I must admit I enjoyed his book, with the exception of his unabashed praise of the Third Reich's moral superiority.


On the technical side, I was a bit surprised that he states the Grossdeutschland division is a light infantry (Leichtinfanterie) outfit, but maybe it's one of the discrepancies since he visibly was in an infantry unit attached to the GD.

[CPL Trevoga]

Although the man's political ideals (for which he shows no atonement, not even after what was known in 1946 of the Nazi crimes) are profoundly repugnant to me, I must admit I enjoyed his book, with the exception of his unabashed praise of the Third Reich's moral superiority.

On the technical side, I was a bit surprised that he states the Grossdeutschland division is a light infantry (Leichtinfanterie) outfit, but maybe it's one of the discrepancies since he visibly was in an infantry unit attached to the GD.

Are you surprised? Guy fought for Grossdeuchalnd for 4 years and you want him to say it was for nothing. All those dudes stayed the same after the war, they just don't say it, but when they get together over a biers it a freaking Third Reicht all over again.

[Johnny_H02]

Are you surprised? Guy fought for Grossdeuchalnd for 4 years and you want him to say it was for nothing. All those dudes stayed the same after the war, they just don't say it, but when they get together over a biers it a freaking Third Reicht all over again.

I take it you have discussed this with many german vet's?

[CPL Trevoga]

I take it you have discussed this with many german vet's?

Lighten up buddy. All I'm saying is that you can't teach an old dog new tricks,
so Sagers position is understandable.

[JoaMei]

Lighten up buddy. All I'm saying is that you can't teach an old dog new tricks,
so Sagers position is understandable.

Most of them are dead anyway.

[Johnny_H02]

Lighten up buddy. All I'm saying is that you can't teach an old dog new tricks,
so Sagers position is understandable.

yeah i wasnt attacking you, I just think its a unfair generalization, I suggest reading "Black Edelwiesse by Johann Voss" it will shed some light on the subject.

[Heinzi]

Thanks for the book tip Johnny.

I have some accounts from German soldiers. But if you want to read them you have to understand the language.

[Johnny_H02]

Thanks for the book tip Johnny.

I have some accounts from German soldiers. But if you want to read them you have to understand the language.

check out this thread for more info on the title.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62735

[Heinzi]

Thanks, checking it out.

For the German speakers a few books (translated the titles as far as I could)


"Seed into the storm"
Memoir form a Waffen SS soldier (joined it illegally with the age of 16).
He survived the war (and the end of the war, as a SS soldier) with a incredible amount of luck, cleverness and willpower. Amazing read.
"Saat in den Sturm", Herbert Brunnegger, ISBN 370200887X
http://www.panzer.shamino.net/pagedata/books/saat.jpg


"Long was the way/route, at the runway 1941-1945"
Memoir of a Antitank gunner at the Eastern front (very interesting details). Like the encounter with KV-1 tanks that crushed some of their AT guns under the tracks(!). Amazing how rare actually the battles against tanks were. Most of the times they were used as ordinary infantry. Included are maps (partially self drawn) and pencil drawings he made between the battles.
"Weit war der Weg, an der Rollbahn 1941-1945", Helmut Martin, ISBN 3800414368
http://www.panzer.shamino.net/pagedata/books/weitweg.jpg


"Beyond the steppe"
A diary from a Wehrmacht soldier on the Eastern front. Very interesting details about the actual encounters with the Red Army.
"Jenseits der Steppe", Wilhelm Eichner, ISBN 3800413485
http://www.panzer.shamino.net/pagedata/books/jenseits.jpg



"The dammed duty"
Memoir from the ordonance officer (literally translation) of Feldmarschall von Manstein.
"Die verdammte Pflicht. Erinnerungen 1932 bis 1945", Alexander Stahlberg, ISBN 3548331297
http://www.panzer.shamino.net/pagedata/books/pflicht.jpg

[Atlantic Friend]

Are you surprised? Guy fought for Grossdeuchalnd for 4 years and you want him to say it was for nothing. All those dudes stayed the same after the war, they just don't say it, but when they get together over a biers it a freaking Third Reicht all over again.

I didn't expect him to say "we did this for nothing", but I had hoped a man writing in the comfort of the 1960s European could show at least some atonement for the crimes that were committed in the name of the same ideals he claims to have been pure...

[ZG 1229]

I have read The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer many times and some whilst on duty overseas. I am currently reading Frontsoldaten by Stephen J Fritz . Fritz uses Sajer's book to back up his own work by quoting Sajer several times. It might as well be about Sajer..
If all of you went on ops, there would be a different story per person, as it is from each persons perspective. Most of you should know and understand this.

[aclark79]

two excellent books are Quartered Safe Out Here: A Recollection of the War in Burma, by George MacDonald Fraiser, same gent who wrote the Flashman novels, about his time in the British Army in Burma. Often overlooked time in WWII.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0002726874.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Second novel is Seven Roads to Hell: A Screaming Eagle at Bastogne by Donald R. Burgett. 101st veteran who also wrote Currahee!: A Screaming Eagle at Normandy, The Road to Arnhem: A Screaming Eagle in Holland and Beyond the Rhine: A Screaming Eagle in Germany

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0891416803.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

All excellent reads but I liked 7 roads to hell the best.

[Johnny_H02]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0891416803.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

All excellent reads but I liked 7 roads to hell the best.
^^ I have read this book 5 times :D and I love it
I love all of Burgett's books infact I was on a forum, I cant remember which but he posts on it.

His books are truely great.

[gaijinsamurai]

I've read Sajer's book a couple of times, and have also read the points that the detractors have made. None of Sajer's minor mistakes or discrepancies have convinced me that the story has been made up.
When confronted on these issues, and accused of having fabricated the story, Sajer responded by basically saying that he didn't care what people thought: the only people whose respect mattered were his fellow GD veterans.
Helmuth Spaeter, the head of the Grossdeautchland Veterans Association, has publicly stated he believes Sajer is the real thing.
The mistakes that Sajer has made are mistakes that almost any veteran would typically make, including myself. I often get dates and places related to Desert Shield/Storm mixed up, forget which shoulder my Army division patch went on, and if you asked me what my Marine unit's exact mission in Desert Storm was, I'd probably have to shrug my shoulders or give you a BS story.
The Forgotten Soldier is probably the best account of war I've ever read.
George MacDonald Frasier's "Quartered Safe Out Here", Sledge's "With The Old Breed", and William Manchester's "Goodbye Darkness" are great accounts of the Pacific Theater.

I'd also recommend "Heaven and Hell", by fallschirmjager Martin Poppel.

[California Joe]

You're right. To me it was simply written in a way that drew me in. I harbor no love for the Nazis in WW2 at all but the way he feels about his comrades and the courage they show during the war should be a universal truth for all soldiers that fight for their friends and their survival. The guy who amazed me was I believe "Weiner" the veteran. If he was an American he'd have been John Wayne in an old war movie. That guy was a stud.

[Buckeye67]

I love all of Burgett's books infact I was on a forum, I cant remember which but he posts on it.

That'd be Trigger Time (http://www.101airborneww2.com). p-)

[Lt. James Anderson]

Yes, Forgotten Soldier is an awesome book. Also all the books by Sven Hassel are just as good ...

[Atlantic Friend]

Are you surprised? Guy fought for Grossdeuchalnd for 4 years and you want him to say it was for nothing.

I kinda hoped he would - after all that was unearthed about the Nazi death camps. But for Sajer, not a word, not a single goddamn word on that.

That's what I cannot forgive the man for, whether he fought bravely or not. When he wrote his book, he HAD to know. And either he chose to disbelieve or he didn't give a rat's ass about his favorite German Reich's genocidal tendencies.

[Johnny_H02]

I kinda hoped he would - after all that was unearthed about the Nazi death camps. But for Sajer, not a word, not a single goddamn word on that.

That's what I cannot forgive the man for, whether he fought bravely or not. When he wrote his book, he HAD to know. And either he chose to disbelieve or he didn't give a rat's ass about his favorite German Reich's genocidal tendencies.
Hey Atlantic I wouldnt reccomend something that wasnt fitting for your point your trying to make, but you should really read this

Black Edelweiss: A Memoir of Combat and Conscience by a Soldier of the Waffen-SS


Book Description
Originally written while the author was a prisoner of the US Army in 1945–46, Black Edelweiss is a boon to serious historians and WWII buffs alike. In a day in which most memoirs are written at half a century’s distance, the former will be gratified by the author’s precise recall facilitated by the chronologically short-range (a matter of one to seven years) at which the events were captured in writing. Both will appreciate and enjoy the abundantly detailed, exceptionally accurate combat episodes. Even more than the strictly military narrative, however, the author has crafted a searingly candid view into his own mind and soul. As such, Black Edelweiss is much more than a "ripping yarn" or a low-level military history. Black Edelweiss joins not only the growing body of German military memoirs, but the more select, more narrowly-focused group of personal memoirs by other Waffen-SS enlisted men. Beyond the microcosmic view of combat these books relate—to the extent that they are honest and candid—such books are important for what they can reveal about their authors’ motivations and reflections on those impulses and their consequences. To date, these works differ significantly.
As it joins the ranks of the books in this genre, Black Edelweiss makes a unique and very important contribution. It is a true, personal account of the author’s war years, first at school and then with the Waffen-SS, which he joined early in 1943 at the age of seventeen. For a year and a half, the author fought as a machine gunner in SS-Mountain Infantry Regiment 11 "Reinhard Heydrich," mainly in the arctic and sub-arctic reaches of Soviet Karelia and Finland, and later at the Western frontier of the Third Reich. The characters in the story are real, and the conversations and actions are recounted to the best of his ability from the short distance at which he wrote the manuscript in 1945–46.
Apart from the piercing insights into the question of why the German soldier fought as he did, what makes this book truly unique is the author’s anguished, yet resolute examination of the dialectic between the honorable and valorous comportment of his comrades and the fundamentally reprehensible conduct of about 35,000 men behind the front lines who nevertheless wore the same uniform.
During his captivity, the author was assigned for a time as a clerk to a US Army Judge Advocate General’s Corps officer, and in the performance of his administrative duties, the author had access to the mounting reams of documentation of the Holocaust. His growing recognition of the involvement of Waffen-SS personnel in the monstrous crimes of that process caused him to dig deeply into his soul, to examine his most intimate and private motivations and thoughts, and to reevaluate the most basic assumptions of his life to that point. The author captured this process and the result in the notes which became this book.
Honestly, forthrightly, and courageously told, Black Edelweiss is a precious gift to historians and other students of World War II. It not only provides a glimpse into the attributes that made the German armed forces a formidable and tenacious foe, but squarely confronts the most painful issue facing German World War II veterans in general, and Waffen-SS veterans in particular.
Supported by 22 photos, 8 maps, and notes
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0966638980/sr=8-1/qid=1154537244/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3918291-7811110?ie=UTF8


believe me its amazing, granted he was in a very hostile area, yet he wasnt in a situation with partisans or a excecution order, but he truely takes everything he learns into account, he trys to justify what he was apart of for the sake of his fallen comrads while at the same time taking responcibility for his part or his hand in the crimes of the Nazi's I truely reccomend this book nothing will open your eyes to the human side of a german soldier of the time like this book will.

[Atlantic Friend]

Hey Atlantic I wouldnt reccomend something that wasnt fitting for your point your trying to make, but you should really read this

[B]Black Edelweiss: A Memoir of Combat and Conscience by a Soldier of the Waffen-SS.

Thanks for the head-up, I'll try to find this book. Either its author was more clever than Sajer, or he was more honest. Either way, I'll have a look !

[Hunterhr]

I kinda hoped he would - after all that was unearthed about the Nazi death camps. But for Sajer, not a word, not a single goddamn word on that.

That's what I cannot forgive the man for, whether he fought bravely or not. When he wrote his book, he HAD to know. And either he chose to disbelieve or he didn't give a rat's ass about his favorite German Reich's genocidal tendencies.

I actually mentioned this issue in a research paper I wrote last semester addressing the brutalization of combat on the Eastern Front. I used Sajer's book for some anecdotal examples of combat on the Eastern Front.

I didn't really go into detail on it as it wasn't the subject of my paper but the primary argument that you get as to why German memoirs don't include such things is that they endured horrible conditions, saw and did terrible things, watched friends die etc. all in the name of their government. They didn't feel what they were doing was evil (the vast majority of them was anyway) and for the most part soldiers such as Sajer were removed from the events of the holocaust (too busy fighting the Soviets).

To admit (even after the fact) that what they did was evil is to repudiate (in their mind) at least, all the sacrifices they made.

It's the same reason you don't read about the atrocities committed by advancing Soviet troops (with exceptions such as Grossman, who was more of an observer than a participant) in their own memoirs.

You tend to see similar trends in accounts from U.S. soldiers who fought in the Vietnam war, although to a lesser extent.

The association of evil (or even pointlessness) with one's sacrifices is a hard cross to bear no matter what side you were on.

I'm not saying that excluding such testimony is right, but that's the biggest argument I've come across as to why it happens. See 'Frontsoldaten' by Stephen G. Fritz, who gives it a much more in depth analysis.

[eindhoven]

I kinda hoped he would - after all that was unearthed about the Nazi death camps. But for Sajer, not a word, not a single goddamn word on that.

That's what I cannot forgive the man for, whether he fought bravely or not. When he wrote his book, he HAD to know. And either he chose to disbelieve or he didn't give a rat's ass about his favorite German Reich's genocidal tendencies.

He doesnt need your forgiveness you narrow minded nard. Retribution and forgiveness all wrapped up in one nice package eh? Do you also descend from heaven with trumpets and fanfare?

I recall the UK never apologized for any of it's empirical enterprises or genocidal tendencies. See, Boer War. Or, really Insert any British Campaign prior to the 20th Century.

His book wasnt written for publication. He wrote it in pencil in journals to help with his nightmares he suffered from and the inner sorrow so present in his interviews on BBC. He was pushed and prodded to publish it, relented and has regretted it ever since. He has shied from exposure but been nagged by professors, media, and nitpicker collectors ever since over such glorious details as a Spandau versus MG or what sleeve he wore a GD cuff title on.

It was a good book and insightful kind of like the one I read, Go to Your God Like A Soldier about serving in the British Infantry throughout history.

[Lt. James Anderson]

He doesnt need your forgiveness you narrow minded nard. Retribution and forgiveness all wrapped up in one nice package eh? Do you also descend from heaven with trumpets and fanfare?

LOL ... That's awesome (I was thinking the same thing). ;)

[Atlantic Friend]

He doesnt need your forgiveness you narrow minded nard. Retribution and forgiveness all wrapped up in one nice package eh? Do you also descend from heaven with trumpets and fanfare?

You know, one things I was taught in life was not to start a debate by calling people "narrow minded nards" because they dare to have a different opinion.

So, I'm not sorry to say, having read his book, I don't have much respect for Guy Sajer or whatever his real name was.

I'm not sorry if I'm not open-minded enough to realize how cool it was to fight for the Third Reich in the Grossdeutschland division.

I'm not sorry if I'm not open-minded enough to realize how neat it was to engage into anti-partisan operations, burning villages.

I'm not sorry if I cannot share Sajer's enthusiasm about how right Hitler was, and how he must be forgiven for having tried to establish a New Order for us all.

I'm also not sorry I can't help wondering why Sajer doesn't find a single thing to say about war crimes the Jewish Holocaust, when he finds time to talk about how the Allies have sold white people to blacks.

But hey, that's probably because, unlike you Eindy (and the good El-Tee), I'm a narrow-minded nard.

(BTW, passages in italics refer to actual chapters of the book)

[Pete031]

I read the book and thought it was amazing.... But it is not about the horrible things that the Nazi's did, it is about a young man in a foreign army doing things that he never imagined. And his struggle for sanity and survival. It was not a book on the holocaust, but a book about a soldiers time on the Eastern Front.

[eindhoven]

You know, one things I was taught in life was not to start a debate by calling people "narrow minded nards" because they dare to have a different opinion.

So, I'm not sorry to say, having read his book, I don't have much respect for Guy Sajer or whatever his real name was.

I'm not sorry if I'm not open-minded enough to realize how cool it was to fight for the Third Reich in the Grossdeutschland division.

I'm not sorry if I'm not open-minded enough to realize how neat it was to engage into anti-partisan operations, burning villages.

I'm not sorry if I cannot share Sajer's enthusiasm about how right Hitler was, and how he must be forgiven for having tried to establish a New Order for us all.

I'm also not sorry I can't help wondering why Sajer doesn't find a single thing to say about war crimes the Jewish Holocaust, when he finds time to talk about how the Allies have sold white people to blacks.

But hey, that's probably because, unlike you Eindy (and the good El-Tee), I'm a narrow-minded nard.

(BTW, passages in italics refer to actual chapters of the book)

Look in the mirror. It is something your own country practiced for a long time which by your logic makes you guilty as well. Your British Empire set up Concentration Camps first which was the model the Germans used.

Antipartisan operations? You mean the ones like the British Empire undertook against the settlers known as Voortrekkers during the Transvaal War?

Burning villages? The Russians burned them as well to leave nothing the Germans could use when they retreated in 41. The Russians killed more of their own people than the Germans did. It wasnt something the Germans invented.

I myself can be nardish. It is a human condition. I just think it rather funny that anyone should need your almighty forgiveness. You bear a degree of intelligence. I would suggest you visit us poor folk when you have a chance to step down from the altar you've built yourself.

Every country on this planet has at one time or another been genocidle. Too suddenly get all lofty and forget your own countries proclivities is, well, nardish.

Here is a lovely tract taking from Wikipedia:
The concentration camps

Boer women and children in a concentration camp. These had originally been set up for refugees whose farms had been destroyed by the British "Scorched Earth" policy (burning down all Boer homesteads and farms). However, following Kitchener's new policy, many women and children were forcibly moved to prevent the Boers from resupplying at their homes and more camps were built and converted to prisons. This relatively new idea was essentially humane in its planning in London but ultimately proved brutal due to its lack of proper implementation. This was not the first appearance of concentration camps. The Spanish used them in the Ten Years' War that later led to the Spanish-American War, and the United States used them to devastate guerrilla forces during the Philippine-American War. But the concentration camp system of the British was on a much larger scale.

There were a total of 45 tented camps built for Boer internees and 64 for black African ones. Of the 28,000 Boer men captured as prisoners of war, 25,630 were sent overseas. So, most Boers remaining in the local camps were women and children, but the native African ones held large numbers of men as well. Even when forcibly removed from Boer areas, the black Africans were not considered to be hostile to the British, and provided a paid labour force.

The conditions in the camps were very unhealthy and the food rations were meager. The wives and children of men who were still fighting were given smaller rations than others. The poor diet and inadequate hygiene led to endemic contagious diseases such as measles, typhoid and dysentery. Coupled with a shortage of medical facilities, this led to large numbers of deaths — a report after the war concluded that 27,927 Boers (of whom 22,074 were children under 16) and 14,154 black Africans had died of starvation, disease and exposure in the concentration camps. In all, about 25% of the Boer inmates and 12% of the black African ones died (although recent research suggests that the black African deaths were underestimated and may have actually been around 20,000).

A delegate of the South African Women and Children's Distress Fund, Emily Hobhouse, did much to publicise the distress of the inmates on her return to Britain after visiting some of the camps in the Orange Free State. Her fifteen-page report caused uproar, and led to a government commission, the Fawcett Commission, visiting camps from August to December 1901 which confirmed her report. They were highly critical of the running of the camps and made numerous recommendations, for example improvements in diet and provision of proper medical facilities. By February 1902 the annual death-rate dropped to 6.9 % and eventually to 2 %.

Counterinsurgency techniques which were applied by the British in the Boer War were later reused by the British to fend off Malayan communist rebels during the Malayan Emergency.

[eindhoven]

You also are not directly qouting, you are paraphrasing which puts your spin on it.

Before I get more guff, I realize it wasnt a policy of extermination handed out to Boer settlers in English Concentration Camps. The policy however did result in mass death and was intended to be cruel. I do have some brain left after my divorce but sadly, no arse left. That was given to her to chew on.

[Pete031]

Every country on this planet has at one time or another been genocidle. Too suddenly get all lofty and forget your own countries proclivities is, well, nardish.


I think that is a wrong statement... I am Canadian, And I don't think this country has ever had genocidle tendancies... Having said that we took part in the Boer war, and yes my regiment has Paarderberg as a battle honor, but I don't think the actions of that day as horrible as they were can be considered genocidle...
My 2 cents

[eindhoven]

Okay, then, too some degree or another every country has either applied or participated in some form of Genocide of another group of people.

[gaijinsamurai]

I thought Atlantic Friend was French. Was I wrong? I'm surprised he hasn't taken part in the Leon Degrelle debate. He is usually very passionate about the subject of the Waffen SS.

[Lt. James Anderson]

I thought Atlantic Friend was French. Was I wrong? I'm surprised he hasn't taken part in the Leon Degrelle debate. He is usually very passionate about the subject of the Waffen SS.

Yes, he's French.


So, I'm not sorry to say, having read his book, I don't have much respect for Guy Sajer or whatever his real name was.

Well, can you respect the courage and everything the guy has been through? Why does he have to apologize for anything? He was just a soldier and fought for what he believed in.

What do you think about French POWs coming back from Indochina? They deserved the treatment they recieved in Marseille?

[Atlantic Friend]

Well, can you respect the courage and everything the guy has been through? Why does he have to apologize for anything? He was just a soldier and fought for what he believed in.

Let me put it that way : I couldn't care less about the individual bravery of Guy Sajer.

He bravely fought for a One Reich, One Party, One Führer world where culture and civilization could be put to the torch by his masters. He bravely fought for a world where Jews, Gypsies, non-Nazi homo******s, Resistants and mentally handicapped people would have been gassed and burned in a furnace somewhere in German-Occupied Europe. He bravely fought for a Better, Brighter, and Racially Pure future, one big, vast, never-ending Holocaust world where his Superior Race could triumph and enslave "lesser" human beings. And even 15 years after his beloved Nazi Germany collapsed, he still was bitching about how the white people had been sold to the negroes by the wretched Allies.

So, maybe good ol' Guy was a really brave soldier, but so were Johnny from Ohio and Peter from Wales, who fought to prevent Guy's dreams to become our world, and I much, much prefer to admire THEM.



What do you think about French POWs coming back from Indochina? They deserved the treatment they recieved in Marseille?

What treatment ? Like, being booed and spat upon, even beaten up for some of them ? Given the fact most of the dockers of Marseille were members of the Communist Party and obey the Communist-controlled CGT union, which of course did its best to hinder the war effort in Indochina, that doesn't surprise me much.

[Atlantic Friend]

I thought Atlantic Friend was French. Was I wrong? I'm surprised he hasn't taken part in the Leon Degrelle debate. He is usually very passionate about the subject of the Waffen SS.

I am - French and passionate about the subject of the SS (Waffen or otherwise). It is a constant source of amazement to me that so many people profess admiration for any part of the SS organization to this day.

You know, there is a small village not far from where I live where you can still see for yourself what swell guys Waffen-SS were. Yep, brave soldiers, they were. It sure takes really brave soldiers to enter a village, round up the population, lock up 642 villagers in the church including 200+ women and children, throw kids and infants into wells, and burn the church after having posted machine-gunners to mow down any villagers trying to escape the furnace. That dead village's name is Oradour sur Glane, and I strongly recomment to visit the place. It has been kept as the "Das Reich" 2nd Waffen-SS Armored Division left it, a real testimony to the bravery of these elite boys who had such cool uniforms and such nice kick-ass gear.

As for Degrelle, as you can imagine, I have no sympathy for him, nor for Ante Pavelic, nor for Pétain, nor for Quisling. But Degrelle was Belgian, and as such I think it's up to Belgians to pass a judgement.

[gaijinsamurai]

Well, I'm sure Vietnamese villagers in the vicinity if My lai probably feel the same about all American soldiers, not just members of one unit from the Americal Division.
I may not agree with you 100%, Atlantic Friend, but I do respect your opinion.