Antimissile defense of Moscow

[Nikolas]

The monitoring system of a space.

Multipurpose РЛС "ДОН - 2Н" (Radar DON-2N)


http://www.arms.ru/rko/Images/don2n3.jpg

http://www.arms.ru/rko/Images/don2n5.jpg

http://www.arms.ru/rko/Images/don2n13.jpg

Inside:

http://www.arms.ru/rko/Images/don2n6.jpg

http://www.arms.ru/rko/Images/don2n15.jpg

Unique opportunities of "DON - 2N" were evidently shown to results of work in the international experiment with detection of the small space objects, spent under program "ODERAX" during which with US Shuttle in a free space microsatellites - metal spheres in diameter of 5,10 and 15 centimeters were thrown out. "DON - 2N" - unique from everything involved in the world of radar-tracking means, could find out and construct a trajectory of the smallest space object - ball in diameter of 2 inches (5 sm).

Carrier of rockets:

http://www.arms.ru/rko/Images/a135-trans3.jpg

I have not found photos of rockets.

[RomanS]

interesting

[Nikolas]

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/soviet/landsat_tm_pushkino_02.jpg

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/soviet/landsat_tm_pushkino_02an.jpg

[duck]

I could imagine the major missile batteries employed around Moscow being of the S-300/400 and Buk M1/M2 kind. Isn't the missile tube part of a S-300/400 platform, or is it more of a thermonuclear thingy?

[AK-Lover]

Don't forget the Gazelle ABM's! There are I think 2 batteries of this kind. I've heard good things about the effectiveness of these late 70's era missiles.

[Nikolas]

It was developed 7 starting complexes for system A-135

2 complexes with rockets 51Т6 (ABM-4 Gorgon). With 18 rockets in each.

5 complexes with 53Т6. In the sum of 64 rockets.


ps.
S-300 and Buk M1/M2
It is antiaircraft defense, not ballistic.

[mustamato]

ps. S-300 and Buk M1/M2
It is antiaircraft defense, not ballistic.

But they are effective against missiles as well, atleast the Buk intercepts
the targets with nearly 4000 km/h and given the warhead, well it´s effective.

[Nikolas]

Yes it so
С - 300 is effective against the small purposes too. Such as tactical missiles, air-ground missiles etc.
The complex in photos is created for defeat of ballistic missiles. Nuclear, for example.

[GazB]

I could imagine the major missile batteries employed around Moscow being of the S-300/400 and Buk M1/M2 kind. Isn't the missile tube part of a S-300/400 platform, or is it more of a thermonuclear thingy?

No. S-300V, now called Antei-2500 was mainly designed to engage tactical ballistic missiles, while the S-300 series (a different weapon) was for aerial and ballistic targets. S-300V is called SA-12, while the rest of the S-300 series is called SA-10 by the west. The S-400 is the SA-20 system. They all have significant anti ballistic missile capability but are not able to intercept ICBMs. The S-300V can intercept targets travelling at 2,500m/s or 2.5km/s (roughly about mach 9), but an ICBM would come in at closer to Mach 15-19. The Systems around Moscow have been regularly tested and is the only operational ABM system and also obviously the most capable.

[Ian H]

Thanks for those, I knew they existed, but nothing else, so this has been very useful.

[Javehn]

during the 70's , a german light one engine plane managed to pass threw most tight air defence in the world , Moscow circular Air defence , and landed in the middle of red square .

[Kingpin]

during the 70's , a german light one engine plane managed to pass threw most tight air defence in the world , Moscow circular Air defence , and landed in the middle of red square .

In 80's. And it didn't pass unnoticed. It was observed long before it crossed into country. Gorbachev just didn't give permission to shot down this plane.

[Sergei]

during the 70's , a german light one engine plane managed to pass threw most tight air defence in the world , Moscow circular Air defence , and landed in the middle of red square .

In 80's. And it didn't pass unnoticed. It was observed long before it crossed into country. Gorbachev just didn't give permission to shot down this plane.

Yeah, after the incident with Korean spy Boeing in 1983, who needed another paranoid cry of "Evil Empire shooting down civilian planes"?
By the way, that german teenager in the plane never figured out that there were two Su-27 on his 6 all the time. :D

[Fox2]

http://www.arms.ru/rko/Images/a135-trans3.jpg

Remember, my Russian friends, it's not the size that counts, it's how you use it! :lol:







Just kidding, ya'll p-)

[GazB]

during the 70's , a german light one engine plane managed to pass threw most tight air defence in the world , Moscow circular Air defence , and landed in the middle of red square .

After going through the grill for shooting down Korean airlines flight 007 I doubt shooting down a Cessna was something any of the generals wanted to do. It was being followed by Flankers and Hips.

[fdt]

I could imagine the major missile batteries employed around Moscow being of the S-300/400 and Buk M1/M2 kind. Isn't the missile tube part of a S-300/400 platform, or is it more of a thermonuclear thingy?

No. S-300V, now called Antei-2500 was mainly designed to engage tactical ballistic missiles, while the S-300 series (a different weapon) was for aerial and ballistic targets. S-300V is called SA-12, while the rest of the S-300 series is called SA-10 by the west. The S-400 is the SA-20 system. They all have significant anti ballistic missile capability but are not able to intercept ICBMs. The S-300V can intercept targets travelling at 2,500m/s or 2.5km/s (roughly about mach 9), but an ICBM would come in at closer to Mach 15-19. The Systems around Moscow have been regularly tested and is the only operational ABM system and also obviously the most capable. How they engage the TBMs? With explosive warhead or with kinetic energy?

[mustamato]

I remember reading about the german teenager, but what happened to him?
Got jailed, was sent home to Germany after a "naughty boy"-lession?

[Marmot1]

during the 70's , a german light one engine plane managed to pass threw most tight air defence in the world , Moscow circular Air defence , and landed in the middle of red square .

In 80's. And it didn't pass unnoticed. It was observed long before it crossed into country. Gorbachev just didn't give permission to shot down this plane.

Yeah, after the incident with Korean spy Boeing in 1983, who needed another paranoid cry of "Evil Empire shooting down civilian planes"?
By the way, that german teenager in the plane never figured out that there were two Su-27 on his 6 all the time. :D

This plane was Cesna piston engine plane... so it was too slow to be followed by Su-27 thay might monitor him but not follow...

Korean spy Boeing???!!! AFAIK it was civilian plane not military and has complet of pasangers on board... are we talking about the same plane (over Sakhalin). That was regular, scheduled civilian plane, of course it entered rusian airspace illegaly but as one post accident report indicated it was due to navigation problems.So it was not a paranoid cry.

KAL 007
On 31 August, 1983* a Korean Air Lines (KAL) Boeing 747 departed Anchorage for a flight to Seoul (KE 007). Soon after departure the aircaft deviated to the right (North) of its planned route. Ultimately, this resulted in penetration of Russian airspace. Approaching Sakhalin Island, the flight was intercepted by USSR military fighters. About half an hour afterwards KAL 007 was hit by at least one air-to-air missile fired by one of the fighter aircraft. The Boeing crashed into the sea, killing all 269 on board

[Sergei]

Korean spy Boeing???!!! AFAIK it was civilian plane not military and has complet of pasangers on board... are we talking about the same plane (over Sakhalin). That was regular, scheduled civilian plane, of course it entered rusian airspace illegaly but as one post accident report indicated it was due to navigation problems.So it was not a paranoid cry.


Yeah, the same plane that got its course missed by some 600 km. :roll: :roll: What kind of pilot gets off the course for 600 km? The pilot was provoking the interceptors and even after several warning shots didn't change his course of flight.
What they don't tell is that 2 weeks before this fateful flight, a similar Boeing with reconaissance equipment was hanging near Soviet borders all the time, scanning the responce time of interceptors and borderlands of Soviet Union.

In this case there are a lot of shady things and one of them is the pilot of the Boeing was employed with a well-known intelligence agency. Concidence?
The trascript of the "black boxes" hasn't revealed anything.
Yes, people died but they were the hostages of political games that are still being played today.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Korean spy Boeing???!!! AFAIK it was civilian plane not military and has complet of pasangers on board... are we talking about the same plane (over Sakhalin). That was regular, scheduled civilian plane, of course it entered rusian airspace illegaly but as one post accident report indicated it was due to navigation problems.So it was not a paranoid cry.


Hmmm AFAIK there was a EC-135 Rivet Joint spyplane few hundred kilometers from that Boeing. So, probably Russians thought that they're shooting down an American spyplane (Pilot launched long-range AA missiles wihtout visual inentification of a target).

I also read that few years earlier there was an identical accident with identical Korean B747. Boeing entered the Russian airspace over Kola pennisula, and continued its flight over Russia. It was intercepted near Murmansk, and forced to land at Afrikanda airfield.

IMHO both Boeings were used as a bait for Russian AD system. When PVO turned on it's radars, communication systems, SA batteries, etc. EC135s were collecting ELINT, COMINT & SIGNIT information.

[Marmot1]

Well not true there was visual regognition since they flied near it.

Sergiey. In 1983 GPS was not common... and when you use instruments that have malfunction you can fly off course much more than 600km also there was US spyplane seen in vivinity And this one was Korean not US, all civilian planes have beacon that sends radio identification signal so radar stations so they know who is flying and this signal was intercepted by soviert radar stations, the truth is that this farry tale about KAL 007 beaing spyplane was created to justify situation and have nothing to do with reality. Hw you would put spying equipment in a plane which is full of pasangers??? there is no place for any serious equipment.

[Russian Texan]

Marmot1, please answer following questions:

1. Why was the autopilot turned off. In case you didn't know all of the civilian airplanes are flown on autopilot.

2. Why wouldn't KAL respond to the radio calls and warning shots?

3. 600 km into Soviet territory is quite a distance you know, not to mention the fact that the plane was manualy diverted from its original course 15 minutes into the flight, how do you explain tha?

4. Why would USSR purposefully shoot down a civilian aircraft?

But what really puts a BS label on your post is the fact that US admitted that there was an electronic reconnaissance aircraft shadowing KAL 007 that had a similar radar signature.

I think that US intelligence/military approached pilots of KAL 007 or maybe the airline itself and worked out a deal where KAL 007 was used as a bait to "light up" russian radars, while american reconnaissance aircraft would register and chart them. They thought to use "Sorry, I got lost" excuse and never considered that USSR might actually shoot it down, but the soviets were pretty much fed up with the constant NATO attempts at recoinnassance flights over the USSR's territory and simply took it to the next level...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

2. Why wouldn't KAL respond to the radio calls and warning shots?


Because there were no warning shots. Boeing was shot down by R-40 long range missile...
But I totally agree with the rest of your post :D

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Well not true there was visual regognition since they flied near it.

There was no visual recognition! :fork:


there was US spyplane seen in vivinity And this one was Korean not US, all civilian planes have beacon that sends radio identification signal so radar stations so they know who is flying and this signal was intercepted by soviert radar stations

Most of civilian air traffic control radars are passive (they recieve a signal from transponder). Military radars use active radiolocation, and military IFF codes are totally different than civilian transponder signals. So on a display of military radar civilian plane is only an unidentified 'spot'. B747 was using civilian codes, Rivet Joint- American IFF code, so Russians had a problem to identify who is who.

[Fox2]

1. Why was the autopilot turned off. In case you didn't know all of the civilian airplanes are flown on autopilot.

I have no knowledge or input into this incident, but I just read this and thought I would comment.

Autopilot, even in the big jumbo jets, is still ****e to problems. Especially in older days, before autopilot guidance systems that could follow a GPS course with several waypoints, the pilot basically would turn a knob for heading. Even if you use the autopilot, if your navigation has somehow been messed up (reading maps wrong, general errors), then it would still not matter, as you are setting the autopilot based on false information. It would be very easy for a large jet to get off course, even 600 km so.

Furthermore, some airline pilots (especially the ones with big egos p-) ) do not use autopilot when they are seated at the front simply because it is an "honor" thing for them. They feel that if they don't actually fly the plane with their hands, then they are not worthy of the title "pilot."

I have no further input on this incident, just thought I would correct that statement.

[Red_Pill]

Guys,

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I would have thought that the details of the shoot-down of KE007 would be commonly agreed upon by everyone by now.

Good info here -> http://aviation-safety.net/specials/kal007/index.htm

Based on this and various other sources, I believe that KE007's flight crew made **VERY** serious errors in cockpit procedure (esp. navigation) during the flight which led to KE007 unintentionally and accidentally violating Soviet airspace.

Similarly, PVO made mistakes. They immediately assumed that KE007 was U.S. RC-135 ELINT aircraft. Although some officers voiced doubts, military rules-of-engagement were applied and never seriously questioned. Despite Soviet claims at the time, PVO made **VERY** poor attempts to confirm the nature of the aircraft and to contact the aircraft.

Examples:

- USSR civilian air traffic controllers were asked by PVO if there were any scheduled Soviet or other commercial flights in the area. Civilian controllers reported that there were no scheduled civil flights expected. They did **NOT** bother to confirm this with their radar plots (which would have showed KE007's transponder echo).

- Radar equipment failures and other problems made tracking of KE007 difficult. As a result, PVO did not have 'eyes-on-target' during the whole intercept.

- PVO expected RC-135 to be flying with lights out, so when interceptors finally sighted KE007 and reported the target was brightly lit, PVO commanders dismissed the report out of hand.

- To confirm the aircraft was not a lost Soviet bomber, the pilot was instructed to interrogate KE007 using his IFF transponder. But KE007, a Western civilian aircraft, did not carry USSR military IFF transponder.

- Since the operating assumption that KE007 was a military aircraft, PVO never thought to contact KE007 using civilian radio frequency.

- PVO pilot fired cannon to attract KE007's attention, but he was too far behind and realized that his aircraft had not been loaded with tracer rounds. It was official policy to load tracers, but "policy" in this case was obviously not being strictly enforced.

KE007 violated Soviet airspace several times. First, when it flew over Kamchatka Peninsula and again in the area of Sakhalin Island. PVO waited to give the order to destroy the aircraft until the last possible minute (knowing full well that destroying a U.S. aircraft, even a spy plane, would result in a major international crisis). PVO finally ordered KE007 destroyed immediately before KE007 left USSR airspace for good. As a result, KE007 **MAY** have gone down in international waters.

The 'rescue' operation was a sad joke. U.S. and Soviet forces constantly got in each other's face. At one point, US naval forces threatened to fire on Soviet aircraft if they approached.
:-(

Basically a lot of people either failed to 'go the extra mile' or were simply sloppy, and the result was an avoidable tragedy. The political manuervering and propaganda war between the USSR and USA afterwards to take advantage of the situation is what I find most depressing.

BTW, you wouldn't believe (well, actually you may) what the leftwing / rightwing consipracy theorists have come up with:

- After being damaged, the KE007 landed safely in USSR territory. In order to cover up their mistake, the USSR imprisoned the passengers and crew in a GULag, and still keeps them there to this today.

Who comes up with this?
<sigh>
:-(

Just my thoughts based on what I've read / learned over the years.

[GazB]

How they engage the TBMs? With explosive warhead or with kinetic energy?

The S-300V had and the S-300 series were later fitted with directional fragmentation warheads that aimed to hit the target directly with a shotgun type blast (we are talking big shotgun blasts... 150kg of HE and shaped fragments of tungsten).


so it was too slow to be followed by Su-27 thay might monitor him but not follow...

I have photos of Su-27s flying in formation with Hind helicopters... what makes you think cessnas fly too slow?


Korean spy Boeing???!!! AFAIK it was civilian plane not military and has complet of pasangers on board... are we talking about the same plane (over Sakhalin). That was regular, scheduled civilian plane, of course it entered rusian airspace illegaly but as one post accident report indicated it was due to navigation problems.So it was not a paranoid cry.

A Boeing that was a huge distance off course flying over a secret Soviet missile test range... I am surprised they let if fly for so long.

BTW The US uses boeings as spy aircraft all the time. A 5am what was the Soviet pilot supposed to do. He fired warning shots with his gun and the airline pilot, who was a former South Korean fighter pilot slowed and tried to force the Soviet pilot to overshoot him (or stall). International law would require the Korean airliner to obey the instruction fo the interceptor and land at an airbase... he chose not to and received a standard response.


and when you use instruments that have malfunction you can fly off course much more than 600km also there was US spyplane seen in vivinity And this one was Korean not US,

Well any pilot worth their salt can tell the difference between flyig over ocean and flying over land. Another question is that the US released radar tracks showing the airliner straying into Soviet territory... why didn't they even try to contact them?


Because there were no warning shots. Boeing was shot down by R-40 long range missile...
But I totally agree with the rest of your post

The aircraft that intercepted the airliner was a Su-15 Flagon. A Flagon can't carry R-40s. Foxbats and Foxhounds carry R-40s(AA-6 Acrids). The Weapons used were 23mm cannon pods for the warning shots and AA-3 (R-98)Anab AAMs.


It would be very easy for a large jet to get off course, even 600 km so.

Ummm... it was the cold war and the territory flown through was about as high security as Area 51 in the US. You wouldn't make such a serious error in such a place. The pilot was not a newbie and was an experienced ex military man.

[Marmot1]

OK gazb how about red pill post???


As for Su-27 flying in formation with hind is it still image or video.... can somebody provide me the minimal air speed for su27

[Uninen]

That "ABM launcher" shown is in fact Topol-M ICBM.. :lol:
And its only contribution to anti missile defences is that it WILL PENETRATE ANY SUCH DEFENCES.. :lol:

[Kingpin]

OK gazb how about red pill post???


As for Su-27 flying in formation with hind is it still image or video.... can somebody provide me the minimal air speed for su27

~200 kph. Enough to stay with Cesna or Hind in formation. They flew at that speed during demonstrations

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

The aircraft that intercepted the airliner was a Su-15 Flagon. A Flagon can't carry R-40s. Foxbats and Foxhounds carry R-40s(AA-6 Acrids). The Weapons used were 23mm cannon pods for the warning shots and AA-3 (R-98)Anab AAMs.

You're right. Sh*t, I don't have good memory... :cantbeli:

[Adri]

OK gazb how about red pill post???


As for Su-27 flying in formation with hind is it still image or video.... can somebody provide me the minimal air speed for su27

~200 kph. Enough to stay with Cesna or Hind in formation. They flew at that speed during demonstrations

it's landing speed is 260-70 km/h so I gess it can go some slower than that, but 60 km/h slower ?

but when it comes to slow, the F-18 is know for slow flying, does any one know how slow ?

[Russian Texan]

That "ABM launcher" shown is in fact Topol-M ICBM.. :lol:
And its only contribution to anti missile defences is that it WILL PENETRATE ANY SUCH DEFENCES.. :lol:

No.
Here is Topol-M
http://plesetsk.org/images/Plesetsk/Topol_M_2.jpg

http://legion.wplus.net/vid.shtml?img=/guide/army/rk/rs12m1-4.wmv&alt=Подвижный%20грунтовый%20ракетный%20комплекс%20РС-12М1%20«Тополь-М»