JAS 39 Gripen C/D

[Resurrection]

http://www.f17.mil.se/images/local/392331.jpg
A pilot boards a JAS 39C fighter

http://www.f17.mil.se/images/local/39233.jpg
Romeo 33 ready. Observe the new horizontal antennas on the fin, which were introduced a few weeks ago.

http://www.f17.mil.se/images/local/060126d.jpg
F 17's first JAS 39D arrives January 23rd, 2005



These pics were from a recent update at F 17's website. Feel free to post more pics of the C/D versions.

[Greek soldier]

JAS-39 C Gripen in Archangel 2005 Airshow, Tanagra Air Base, Viotia

Copyright: The Hellenic Air Force (HAF)

[Resurrection]

Some high-res pics. First two are Czech.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7/09121888ke.th.jpg (http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09121888ke.jpg)

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6470/09459025kl.th.jpg (http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09459025kl.jpg)

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3535/04063285jp.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=04063285jp.jpg)

[Resurrection]

JAS 39C test aircraft carrying three external drop tanks.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9302/09067280qv.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09067280qv.jpg)

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9531/09068559xh.th.jpg (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09068559xh.jpg)


Farewell Airshow at Caslav AFB.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3955/08600472vw.th.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08600472vw.jpg)

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/8711/08532435zt.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08532435zt.jpg)

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7937/08499021op.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08499021op.jpg)

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/7695/08505444yh.th.jpg (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08505444yh.jpg)

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3079/08536986xn.th.jpg (http://img112.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08536986xn.jpg)

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5619/08845421qe.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08845421qe.jpg)

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/4958/08845439dr.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08845439dr.jpg)

[Nickel1106]

just downloaded Gripen CD from gripen.com
got love on that eagle!!
thx for the post
nice work man!!

[J-10]

Nice bird! Video of JAS-39:

http://www.qszj.net/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=103&id=343

[Resurrection]

just downloaded Gripen CD from gripen.com
got love on that eagle!!
thx for the post
nice work man!!
You're welcome. :D Oh yeah the Gripen CD, I almost forgot. Have to download it soon.

Nice bird! Video of JAS-39:

http://www.qszj.net/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=103&id=343

Ah man the download is too slow, could you upload it onto Filefactory?

[mogsniper94]

I am interested in The Swedish military, long ago we had an exchange student from Sweden. I wish i could find the old pics of those S tanks he was assigned too!

Is it comparable to say an F16? Im a ground guy and dont know much about air unless its Marine air.

[Resurrection]

I am interested in The Swedish military, long ago we had an exchange student from Sweden. I wish i could find the old pics of those S tanks he was assigned too!

Glad to hear you're interested. :) Wow, yeah that must've been quite long ago. Here is a pic of it I found:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2781/strv103cmju207ow.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/my.php?image=strv103cmju207ow.jpg)


Is it comparable to say an F16? Im a ground guy and dont know much about air unless its Marine air.

Well the Gripen is a newer design, but I guess they are comparable specifications-wise.

[Nickel1106]

Gripen CD download link here for every MPer :)
http://www.gripen.com/download/18.10deb5ffd9e2557fe7fff3132/gripen.zip 94.47MB
and awesome gripen screensaver http://www.gripen.com/download/18.1ab11b0fac3ac8aec7fff5651/GripenSaver.zip

[J-10]

Quote:
Originally Posted by J-10
Nice bird! Video of JAS-39:

http://www.qszj.net/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=103&id=343



Ah man the download is too slow, could you upload it onto Filefactory?


Sorry, I don't know how to upload it onto Filefactory.:|

Try to download it from mms://www.jxjt.gov.cn/plane.asf
(mms://www.jxjt.gov.cn/plane.asf) 18.4MB

[Kekkonen]

So does anyone have a picture of the cockpit in a JAS 39A? There is plenty out there of the C/D (sales pitch photos from SAAB obviously) but not from the A-version. I remember seeing a photo of a cockpit that I believe was from the A-version and it looked somehow different.

[Nickel1106]

Sorry, I don't know how to upload it onto Filefactory.:|

Try to download it from mms://www.jxjt.gov.cn/plane.asf
(mms://www.jxjt.gov.cn/plane.asf) 18.4MB
yep,Filefactory is slow as hell and the link of it always broken down here......sad:(

[Greek soldier]

So does anyone have a picture of the cockpit in a JAS 39A? There is plenty out there of the C/D (sales pitch photos from SAAB obviously) but not from the A-version. I remember seeing a photo of a cockpit that I believe was from the A-version and it looked somehow different.

The "A" version HUD and display panels were smaller than the "C".

Here is a photo

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1501/cockpit9ed.th.jpg (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cockpit9ed.jpg)

http://www.qedata.se/e_artiklar_bakgrund.htm

[flanker7]

The "A" version HUD and display panels were smaller than the "C".

Here is a photo

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1501/cockpit9ed.th.jpg (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cockpit9ed.jpg)

http://www.qedata.se/e_artiklar_bakgrund.htm


Also, on early A/B models the MFD were monochrome(green) and if I remember correctly on the C/D models are a bit larger. In fact the C/D ,odels have the biggest % coverage of their panel by screens than any other plane and are second only to the F-22 and F-35 in total area covered by MFD!

[Resurrection]

Yup, in the C/D versions the MFDs are 150 x 200 mm and colour.

[saigonsmuggler]

I am interested in The Swedish military, long ago we had an exchange student from Sweden. I wish i could find the old pics of those S tanks he was assigned too!

Is it comparable to say an F16? Im a ground guy and dont know much about air unless its Marine air.
It is a newer design. However the newer blocks of F-16s (Block 50/52+ and 60 - especially the AESA-equipped ones) should be comparable.

The Gripen suffers from a weak engine, light payload and short range and none of which can be easily remedied. It fits fine for Sweden since it can operate from highway stretches and being short-legged, it suits fine as a point defense fighter, again Sweden's defence needs.

IIRC, it has better snap/instantaneous turn rate than the F-16 but worse sustained turn rate. In combat training vs. Norwegian's F-16As, it was about even for each unit for all engagements, however with Gripen International claiming victory AND Norwegian pilots claiming victory. Norwegian pilots claimed that the F-16's superior power (thrust) allowed them to gain the upperhand in most engagements. However, this became a he-said-she-said type of deal.

[Parzival]

In that excersise Gripen won. The norwegian pilots just tried to find excuses but nobody really belived them.

JAS it's a 4-generation fighter while F-16 is 3-generation.
Some F-16's might be equipped with better missils and weapons but as an airplane. Gripen is superior in almost every way.

[Kekkonen]

SOme F-16 might be equipped with better missils and weapons but as an airplane. Gripen is superior in almost every ways.

rofl

It's a combat aircraft dumbass.

[saigonsmuggler]

Ok but like I said, depends on who you ask. Gripen International declared victory but remember that they are VERY aggressive in their marketing of the Gripens.

Whether the Gripen is superior to the F-16 really depends on the needs of the customer. If the customer demands long range and heavy weapon payload with wide selection, the Gripen may not fit the bill.

Yes it is a 4th gen fighter and a very good one at that - no doubt.

[Resurrection]

That exercise was heavily disputed, and I've heard both sides saying they won. So you can't really use that as a source to compare the two fighters.

Saab is currently looking into a more powerful engine, most likely the F414 or EJ200 (with thrust vectoring). This is one of the several other proposed upgrades that Sweden is looking into (others include the AESA radar nicknamed NORA, CFTs, fuselage stretch for greater range, etc).

[signatory]

The Gripen suffers from a weak engine, light payload and short range and none of which can be easily remedied.



Well not really. And be advised that the C/D versions have stronger carriage and wing for even more load. 5 x 2000lbs bombs, two sidewinders and a cannon is not really a light payload for this type of aircraft. (F-35 with only 2x2000 and F-22A with only 2x1000) Instead of one bomb a typical load up would be a large fuel drop tank.
http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/9229/gripengbu6401fq.jpg

Range is not really a problem either, clearly a small jet like that will not get up to SU-30 range with a full load-out, but it is in the F-18 numbers. (Boeing data combat range 550nm) plus it now comes with a refueling probe and onboard oxygene generator and APU.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9174/gripenloadweight8cz.jpg

(F-16 combat radius 295-540 nm (depending on version))

[flanker7]

In my mind the Gripen is like a modern day F-5, small, agile, cheap(relatevly)-especially in operating costs. It's bigger advandage, as i see it, is it's modern electonics and integration of them with each other. Biggest disanvantage is lighter payload and radius of action, but thats because of its small size I guess

[saigonsmuggler]

I have read that the problem with putting in a more powerful engine is that it will further shorten an already short range of the jet. But maybe with newer engines coming out, you can have the cake and eat it too?

[signatory]

In my mind the Gripen is like a modern day F-5, small, agile, cheap(relatevly)-especially in operating costs. It's bigger advandage, as i see it, is it's modern electonics and integration of them with each other. Biggest disanvantage is lighter payload and radius of action, but thats because of its small size I guess

again... what are you comparing the Gripen to ? F-16 @ 5400 kg weapons load on 11 hard points, Gripen @ 5300 Kg on 9 points. Combat radius almost the same. Don't let the small size get to yah on the Gripen, over 30% is carbon composits p-)

[Resurrection]

Bah. Increase # of hard points on the Gripen, put in more powerful engines, add CFTs, and further strengthen the wings/airframe and landing gear. Problem solved. p-)

[Kekkonen]

Bah. Increase # of hard points on the Gripen, put in more powerful engines, add CFTs, and further strengthen the wings/airframe and landing gear. Problem solved. p-)

How many hospitals do you want to close down son?

[Greek soldier]

Actually Gripen International is going to examine these stuff ONLY IF one or more customers demand such modifications. Who's gonna pay? SAAB itslef?? Or the Swedish government (and have a fuss like the nEUROn project??)

BTW, Gripen can now take also the KEPD-350 stand off missile :) :)

[Resurrection]

No. Sweden can't solely rely on export sales to keep the upgrade program alive.

[siberian tiger]

The Gripen is one of my favorite fighters, and for what i have read in previous comments it is not very inferior to the F-16 but that reminds me when some british were making a big party for the RAF Eurofighter beating USAF F-15s on the UK and it is a 30 year diference on the aircraft design also between the Gripen and the F-16, i don`t know what is the exact year that the F-16 become operational but i now that the Israelits used F-16s in Libanon in 1982 so it has more than 23 years.
How about compare the Gripen with the Eurofighter or Rafale? Does the Gripen has any advantage against them besides being cheaper?

[Resurrection]

How about compare the Gripen with the Eurofighter or Rafale? Does the Gripen has any advantage against them besides being cheaper?

Quicker turn-around rate probably. I'm sure signatory could fill you in on all the technical stuff. ;)

[Greek soldier]

Gripen is single-engined and never compare with Typhoon and/or Rafale (twin-engined). Gripen has lower thrust ratio, it is lighter and with less payload. It is a light-weight aircraft.

[signatory]

Gripen is single-engined and never compare with Typhoon and/or Rafale (twin-engined). Gripen has lower thrust ratio, it is lighter and with less payload. It is a light-weight aircraft.

Yes but the question is advantage... what res said, + smaller RCS, smaller noise levels, smaller emittance in several bands, OTIS sight as option.

Against the Rafale a much better in-cockpit data presentation and against the Eurofighter, a stronger landing gear p-) What they have in advantage over gripen is as you said a larger load and all other benefits we know about.

[flanker7]

If one aircraft had advantages in all areas over the rest then you'd probably see only that aircraft flying around. As with all military hardware you compromise in some areas to gain in some others

[signatory]

Actually Gripen International is going to examine these stuff ONLY IF one or more customers demand such modifications. Who's gonna pay? SAAB itslef?? Or the Swedish government (and have a fuss like the nEUROn project??)

BTW, Gripen can now take also the KEPD-350 stand off missile :) :)

The MSI39 (Multi sensor integration) R&D project has been underway and is financed by the state until it expires on 2009-12-31. NORA is part of that project. New engine and larger fuselarge is not on the table and I think this is thinking is based on the older A-design, after BAE and SAAB developed the more capable C/D version and a move towards UCAV I don't see it as anything likely at all even though the gov just commited a further 600 million to new Gripen R&D.

Kept-350 you say...

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6387/gripentaurus4sl.jpg
2xTAURUS KEPD 350, 2xAMRAAM, 2xAIM-9L, extra fuel.

http://www.gripen.com/images/200.37504dfd4ba2d1d2800017/Dig02940.jpg
2 x RBS15 Anti-Ship (land) missile, 2xMaverick, 2xAIM-9L

http://www.gripen.com/images/200.160e069fdd3348d4e800038/CD1_25.jpg
2 x DWS39 capsules (72xCluster bombs each), 2xMaverick, 2xAim9L

http://www.gripen.com/images/200.1b9e7fcfd57a30f46800018/39_101_00407_RT8.jpg
8 x MK82, 2xAIM-9L

http://www.gripen.com/images/200.1b9e7fcfd57a30f46800083/CRW_3840.jpg
GBU-12, FLIR/LDP

http://www.gripen.com/images/200.1b9e7fcfd57a30f468000194/Gripen_P_G_2003_06.jpg
Jet1: 2 x DWS 39, 2xMaverick, 2xAim-9l
Jet2: 4 x AMRAAM, 2xAIM-9L

[Resurrection]

and a move towards UCAV I don't see it as anything likely at all even though the gov just commited a further 600 million to new Gripen R&D.

You're breaking my heart. :(

[siberian tiger]

In the Portuguese Air Force there is only 20 F-16 A\B, a few years ago the Portuguese government have bought another 20 to the USAF and the plane was to upgrade all 40 to the MLU.
But it has been a very slow and painfull program in more or less 3 years there are only about 6 F-16 AM\BM, with this rate i think that when all 40 F-16 finished the conversion the F-16 will be a museum aircraft lol. I thought the MLU a good program, about 10 years ago but not now, for me they should give up the MLU program and buy a recent fighter like the Gripen but the Euros are needed. ;)

[Resurrection]

Why has it taken such a long time to upgrade the F-16s? We haven't upgraded our 200+ JAS 39 A/B fighter jets to the C/D standard, and don't plan to. Because according to the government we don't "need" these planes.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

JAS it's a 4-generation fighter while F-16 is 3-generation.
Some F-16's might be equipped with better missils and weapons but as an airplane. Gripen is superior in almost every way.
Please define the differences between the third and the fourth generation fighters. p-)


btw. anybody remembers this (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62092&highlight=gripen) thread? p-)

[Resurrection]

Oh I almost forgot, our datalink is also another advantage. :)

[Thor]

Please define the differences between the third and the fourth generation fighters. p-)


btw. anybody remembers this (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62092&highlight=gripen) thread? p-)
Please, not this again... West and East have two different systems. If the model setup would have been the other way this too would have been the other way.

[Greek soldier]

Oh I almost forgot, our datalink is also another advantage. :)

The Rockwell-Collins hardware no, but the overall philosophy yes p-)

[Resurrection]

Hmm...? I'm saying it's an advantage as it's superior to NATO's Link 16 system.

[Thor]

and for what i have read in previous comments it is not very inferior to the F-16
F-16 has nothing on Gripen (unless it's the block 60 version and for that you can buy 2 Gripens). p-)


Or the Swedish government (and have a fuss like the nEUROn project??)
The upgrades of Gripen will continue throughout it's life span of some 25 years from now.

[Greek soldier]

Yes, I know. I just stated that the datalink hardware is "made in USA" and "supplied by Bofors" ;)

[Resurrection]

You always have to complicate things. :p

[signatory]

You're breaking my heart. :(

Well, you will be 40 years old before this will happen.... p-)
There's still a small chance we will see a manned jet but only as the leader-ship for unmanned UCAV wingmen or a bomber swarm.

I forgot who said it, possibly a SAAB manager that had a vision of NORA equipped Gripen's as forward 'command and control' jets that feeds target data to UCAV's.

[Greek soldier]

You mean Ake Svensson?? 'Cos he was the one that said "the UCAV technologies will be used for any future Gripen enhancements"

[Parzival]

rofl

It's a combat aircraft dumbass.
Very clever.....very clever. Stupid.

[perdurabo]

In that excersise Gripen won. The norwegian pilots just tried to find excuses but nobody really belived them.

JAS it's a 4-generation fighter while F-16 is 3-generation.
Some F-16's might be equipped with better missils and weapons but as an airplane. Gripen is superior in almost every way.
sorry but you are wrong, F-16 C/D (don't compare with E/F cause they are superior even to EF -no standard wires all on optical fibres AESA radar etc...) carries newer equipment, has wider equipment array, has better radar, can carry more load, have more hardpoints, have longer range, have better dynamics in vertical manovuers and its engine/weight ratio is better, F16 needs less maintance hours per 1 flight hour, its adventage is its datalink and ability to operate from roads. JAS is very good plane but it is small, it matches Swedish defence doctrine very well but it isn't multirole strike fighter like F-16.


How about compare the Gripen with the Eurofighter or Rafale? Does the Gripen has any advantage against them besides being cheaper?
vs. Rafale its cheaper and can operate from roads
vs. Eurofighter it has anti-ground wepons while EF batch 1 is pure fighter
but you try to compare twin engine heavy fighters with small one engine one
and guys generations are bulsh!t moust important things are
engine power
power/weight ratio
climb etc ratios
radar specs
weponary array and its specs
range
cost
cost and time of maintance
compare this and you will see what is better in witch part
for egzample older generation MiG25 definetly has better power/weight ratio and has more power, MiG31 has definetly better radar than Grippen...

[Thor]

sorry but you are wrong, F-16 C/D (don't compare with E/F cause they are superior even to EF -no standard wires all on optical fibres AESA radar etc...) carries newer equipment, has wider equipment array, has better radar, can carry more load, have more hardpoints, have longer range, have better dynamics in vertical manovuers and its engine/weight ratio is better, F16 needs less maintance hours per 1 flight hour, its adventage is its datalink and ability to operate from roads. JAS is very good plane but it is small, it matches Swedish defence doctrine very well but it isn't multirole strike fighter like F-16.
It's a well known fact that poles have a grudge againt Gripen because they had to settle with old F-16's and their neighbours/close nations Czech Republic and Hungary now can outfly them.

I have hightlighted the only two things that are accurate in your post.

More hardpoint are on their way and 5400 vs 5300 is not that big of a deal.


MiG31 has definetly better radar than Grippen...
Nope.

[Thor]

In combat training vs. Norwegian's F-16As, it was about even for each unit for all engagements, however with Gripen International claiming victory AND Norwegian pilots claiming victory. Norwegian pilots claimed that the F-16's superior power (thrust) allowed them to gain the upperhand in most engagements. However, this became a he-said-she-said type of deal.
None of that is true. Gripen have flown against norwegian and american F-16's (in the US) and finnish and swiss F-18's. All with excellent results (just ask the opponents).

If you understood the rivalry between Sweden and Norway you would know why the norwegians now claim things that differ from the mission de-briefings. We always beat them. ;) (And also go figure why the norwegians, as well as the danes, not have excluded the Gripen should their F-35 deal not work out.)

[Kekkonen]

Gripen have flown against Norwegian and American F-16's (in the US) and Finnish and Swiss F-18's. All with excellent results.

Depends who you ask. Pretty naive to trust SAAB.

[Thor]

Depends who you ask. Pretty naive to trust SAAB.
Not the case. If you have multilateral exercises the results are open for every particpating country to see.

[Kekkonen]

Not the case. If you have multilateral exercises the results are open for every particpating country to see.

So where are the results?

[Thor]

So where are the results?
You mean that you, Kekkonen on mp.net, don't have access to debriefings from exercises? I'm surprised.

Go hang with some fly boys and you'll learn stuff.

[Kekkonen]

Go hang with some fly boys and you'll learn stuff.

You mean that Swedish flyboys say that they kick ass? Well I guess we are then back to "depends who you ask". I'd say that perdurabo seems to be quite well-read when it comes to aviation **** unlike you, so I will trust him for now.

[Thor]

You mean that Swedish flyboys say that they kick ass? Well I guess we are then back to "depends who you ask". I'd say that perdurabo seems to be quite well-read when it comes to aviation **** unlike you, so I will trust him for now.
No, fly boys in general. This is not an issue. Just ask them and then accept that we can kick any nation in the world up the ass when it comes to technology (and flying skills). It's we and the americans, the rest of you are just pesants. ;)

Perdurabo (or was it some other wannabe-fly-pole) have gotten his hands beaten bloody before on this. Look in the archives.

[G-Capo]

Jas-39 the wings of your nation!

Freee freee to flyy!

I love the Gripen!

[siberian tiger]

[QUOTE=Thor]No, fly boys in general. This is not an issue. Just ask them and then accept that we can kick any nation in the world up the ass when it comes to technology (and flying skills). It's we and the americans, the rest of you are just pesants. ;)

I Have read that the best fighter pilots in the World are the Israelits and im not talking about exercices lol.

And talking about Israelits i have the idea that the IDF have the best F-16s in the world because it may be a US aircraft and engine but it is Israelit avionics and weapons. How true is that?

[Resurrection]

Psh you guys just wait till NORA is released. And as signatory already stated, the Gripen is not as "light" as you think. Especially not the C/D versions.

[Cifu]

It's a well known fact that poles have a grudge againt Gripen because they had to settle with old F-16's and their neighbours/close nations Czech Republic and Hungary now can outfly them.

Well, Hungary maybe not. Our version of the Gripen called JAS-39EBS HU, not JAS-39C/D. It's a mule, an JAS-39C/D (Lot3) fuselage with the JAS-39A/B (Lot2) wings. At first glance our politicans are choose to get the Gripens as fast as we can - so the planes are become JAS-39A/B (Lot2) types. After the 2002 elections, the new party has revised the original Gripen-contract, and ask the Saab to make the planes capable to use guided bombs, and aerial refuelling. The Saab give this mule-verion to the Hungarians, and the goverment are accept it.

[Resurrection]

Uhmm... why would you do that? Were you in such a desperate need?

[tomcat1974]

Ask the Czechs... they got a butt naked plane..that is not capable to carry the Missiles that they already had.. That's why the Sweeds "generously" offered to sell them AIM-9L, when Czechs alread HAD 9M. And BTW no RWR on the Czech ones...
Hungarian ones are better .. they had full option pack.

SAAB is marketing J39 like cars...Optionals ..;)

Exercice don't mean ****... Romanian Lancers encountered British Harrier in WVR, Dutch F16, Mirage F1 with very good results.. Whata does that means... absolutly NOTHING..

BTW Nice grippen Pictures

[Resurrection]

Some more pics of the C/D version:

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/3507/04103366au.th.jpg (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=04103366au.jpg)

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/4600/04691160cf.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=04691160cf.jpg)

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7803/07731908ep.th.jpg (http://img51.imageshack.us/my.php?image=07731908ep.jpg)

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7001/08310879ka.th.jpg (http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08310879ka.jpg)

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/8565/08425409fl.th.jpg (http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08425409fl.jpg)

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/9136/08425494kw.th.jpg (http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08425494kw.jpg)

[Resurrection]

Ask the Czechs... they got a butt naked plane..that is not capable to carry the Missiles that they already had.. That's why the Sweeds "generously" offered to sell them AIM-9L, when Czechs alread HAD 9M. And BTW no RWR on the Czech ones...
Hungarian ones are better .. they had full option pack.

Sorry but I don't really understand, could you clarify?


BTW Nice grippen Pictures

Thanks. :)

[Resurrection]

Worth noting would be that the Gripens that participated in the SwAF/NoAF exercise were A/B's. Not that it should be used as a source anyway.

[signatory]

Ask the Czechs... they got a butt naked plane..that is not capable to carry the Missiles that they already had.. That's why the Sweeds "generously" offered to sell them AIM-9L, when Czechs alread HAD 9M. And BTW no RWR on the Czech ones...
Hungarian ones are better .. they had full option pack.

Missiles have to pass the operational software configuration certficate before you can load them on, the 9M had simply not been verified while the 9L was.
Czech were offered 9L as an interim solution until 9M had been verified. It's not about 'capable' it's about verification. Same with the C5 AMRAAMS they too had to be verified eventhough the AIM-120B and C versions had previously been verified (Sweden is the only country besides the USA who is allowed to verify amraam integration) I mean it was 11 months from signing contract to first delivery! most airforces have to wait 10-15-20 years!

It's alot of work to verify missiles and the czech were desperate for jets so what can you expect. They also only leased them. SAAB can physically and electronically load up any weapon but that doesn't mean jack unless you verify a missile. Just try to add israeli missiles to a polish F-16 and you'll see. it's possible, just not allowed.



SAAB is marketing J39 like cars...Optionals ..;)

I suppose you're from the Flanker fanclub.

[Cifu]

Sorry but I don't really understand, could you clarify?

The Saab has slow progress on the Gripen weapon migration, the JAS-39A/B planes are fly many years ago - but only with three types of weapons: AIM-9L, AGM-65 (i dont know the exact type) and the RBS-15F. As far as i know, the AIM-120C, and LGB migration are completed, as the several other weapon system (like KEPD-350, DWS39, or even the "dumb" Mk82. bomb, and the Bofors M-70 unguided rockets). But for example the IRIS-T migration is only complete somewhere 2007, because lack of funding, prior this, the AIM-9L the only short-range AAM in the Gripen's arsenal.

The first hungarian Gripen-contract are lack of advanced fighter-capabilites, cannot use precision-guided weapons, not even LGB's. Cannot be refuelled in the air, and the weapon's wich can be used are only AIM-9L and the AGM-65 (Hungary is an land-locked country, so the RBS-15 not an option for us). Promise maded by the Saab for the AIM-120 missiles migration, but only after the planes are arived.
The current hungarian contract are request the aerial-refuelling capabilites, the AIM-120 migration (we are make deal with the Raytheon for the purchase of 48 AIM-120C-5 missiles (yes, only thats few)), the LGB's migration (we are pressumably buying GBU-12's, and Litening containers), but not maded decision on short-range AAM's (wich is hard, because the IRIS-T is the preferred type, but only 2008-2009 time frame are reality, when the missiles are can be combat ready in hungarian planes, but the only option, the AIM-9L are hardly outdated) and the ground-attack weapons (perhaps AGM-65, exact type to be determined).

Why the hungarian goverment accept an mule version?
No real explanation given. The hungarian defense ministry and the Saab are both concentrate on the new capabilities over the old version ("full glass cockpit", aerial refuelling, precision strike capabilites). I presume the Saab are complete at least few of the original contract JAS-39A/B wings, and dont want to drop them into the trash. Perhaps Saab and Hungary make an compromise, between the capabilites and the price. Weaponbusiness are always have dark spots...

[signatory]

Cifu


The Saab has slow progress on the Gripen weapon migration, the JAS-39A/B planes are fly many years ago - but only with three types of weapons: AIM-9L, AGM-65 (i dont know the exact type) and the RBS-15F. As far as i know, the AIM-120C, and LGB migration are completed, as the several other weapon system (like KEPD-350, DWS39, or even the "dumb" Mk82. bomb, and the Bofors M-70 unguided rockets). But for example the IRIS-T migration is only complete somewhere 2007, because lack of funding, prior this, the AIM-9L the only short-range AAM in the Gripen's arsenal.

Again the Gripen is capable of fitting US, european and Israeli missiles but verification is done on a need to deliver basis just cause it's both time consuming and expensive to verify missiles just for the fun of it. This is done when a airforce has requested such a verification or when the aircraft manufacturer feel it's in their best own interest for sales. Like I said above this is done in the usual time frame of 10-20 years from contract.

http://www.gripen.com/images/200.3b5699fd650eb4be80007/Dig02941.jpg
Israeli Pyhton 4 and Darter




Why the hungarian goverment accept an mule version?
No real explanation given. The hungarian defense ministry and the Saab are both concentrate on the new capabilities over the old version ("full glass cockpit", aerial refuelling, precision strike capabilites). I presume the Saab are complete at least few of the original contract JAS-39A/B wings, and dont want to drop them into the trash.

What the... The new gov wanted NATO interoperability including LGB and aearial refueling, this was written in to the added contract in 2003 and the jets are not A/B 'mules' they are C/D versions from trance 3 that were supposed to go to the Swedish airforce. The New wings for C/D were introduced even before the hungarian contract was signed. First version was delivered in september 2002 to FMV.

[G-Capo]

Gripen is not a light fighter.Has the range and payload to compete with any 4th Generation fighter.

Not too mention the price tag is not as much as say a Ef-2000 or Rafale.

[Cifu]

Cifu
Again the Gripen is capable of fitting US, european and Israeli missiles but verification is done on a need to deliver basis just cause it's both time consuming and expensive to verify missiles just for the fun of it. This is done when a airforce has requested such a verification or when the aircraft manufacturer feel it's in their best own interest for sales. Like I said above this is done in the usual time frame of 10-20 years from contract.

This 10-20 years are nonsense, integration of a new weapon for an F-16 are completed in several months, if the weapon are ready....



What the... The new gov wanted NATO interoperability including LGB and aearial refueling, this was written in to the added contract in 2003 and the jets are not A/B 'mules' they are C/D versions from trance 3 that were supposed to go to the Swedish airforce. The New wings for C/D were introduced even before the hungarian contract was signed. First version was delivered in september 2002 to FMV.

You confused the Czech and the Hungarian planes. The JAS-39EBS HU planes are mules. Period. The Czech planes are Lot3 / Trance 3 series JAS-39C/D planes, and those planes are really supposed be to go for the SwAF, but transfered to the export, because the Czech goverment want their planes very soon.
The hungarian press are munched the mule variant around two years ago, when the first hungarian planes are begin to assembly. What i pressume, the Saab are begin to make the wings after the first contract singed in 2001. In 2003 the contract changed, and the prefabricated fuselage parts and wings are become useless, because the JAS-39A/B and C/D has different types of these. The fuselage are sure thing: the JAS-39A/B fuselage are not fit the aerial refuelling, OBOGS, etc. But the wings are can be used, even if the combat payload are maintain in the JAS-39A/B level, and the mule version flight charasteristic are difers from both the JAS-39A/B, and the JAS-39C/D.
What is fact, the JAS-39EBS HU not equal JAS-39C/D...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

MiG31 has definetly better radar than Grippen...

Nope.
OK let's see...
The Gripen's PS-05/A radar max detection range is about 120-140 km, number of simultaneously tracked targets is 6 and the number of simultaneously engaged targets is 4.
In comparison, the MiG-31's Zaslon radar can detect targets up to 200 km (Zaslon-M - 400 km), simultaneously track 10 targets and engage 4 of them.

Sources:
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/mig-31.htm
http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1601&catid=255
http://www.aero-enthusiast.com/AC%20data/MiG-31.html
http://www.aereimilitari.altervista.org/Aerei/Mig-31.htm
http://www.danshistory.com/foxhound.html
http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~junap95/fighters/mig31.htm (http://aeroweb.lucia.it/%7Ejunap95/fighters/mig31.htm)

But you still say that the radar with smaller range, smaller number of simultaneously tracked targets and without the AESA array is better? May I ask why?

[signatory]

OK let's see...
The Gripen's PS-05/A radar max detection range is about 120-140 km, number of simultaneously tracked targets is 6 and the number of simultaneously engaged targets is 4.
In comparison, the MiG-31's Zaslon radar can detect targets up to 200 km (Zaslon-M - 400 km), simultaneously track 10 targets and engage 4 of them.

But you still say that the radar with smaller range, smaller number of simultaneously tracked targets and without the AESA array is better? May I ask why?

You lie out of your nose or at least your info is incorrect on the Gripen radar.

The simultaneously number of tracked targets has never been less than 15 and after Mk3's new computers and MK4 GRETA additional software upg the number is now 28+ (they do not reveal a top number) That's ground and air targets at the same time. It can count and store target data for docked ships in unlimited numbers.

Range is up to 40% higher than the bottom number specified in sales (120km) this is software limitation around the saab concept of don't need it, don't show it. The EriEye airborn radar is another example it has a range beyond 500km but software limited to 350Km in Sweden, 400km for the Greek version. 450km as a sales figure.

Christ, mig-31 is a nice jet but why do you need to spread lies about other countries jet... must be embarrased over the state of the AF or something.

[flanker7]

I suppose you're from the Flanker fanclub

Hey, don't use my name in vane! rofl

BTW, this is a good thread. Sweden is pushing the Gripen for a sale to HAF but I think(I hope) the government will go for the Eurofighter

[Nordmannen]

No, fly boys in general. This is not an issue. Just ask them and then accept that we can kick any nation in the world up the ass when it comes to technology (and flying skills). It's we and the americans, the rest of you are just pesants. ;)

Perdurabo (or was it some other wannabe-fly-pole) have gotten his hands beaten bloody before on this. Look in the archives.

Sweden got crappy economy and a debt in the millions to other countries. Pretty much reminds me of some poor eastern block country whenever I'm there.

If all else fails on the "New plane deal", Norway could just buy SAAB, cancel all deals with Sweden and then move the company to Norway.

[Resurrection]

Sweden got ****ty economy and a debt in the millions to other countries. Pretty much reminds me of some poor eastern block country whenever I'm there.

If all else fails on the "New plane deal", Norway could just buy SAAB, cancel all deals with Sweden and then move the company to Norway. Not that you could do anything about it with that economy of yours.
LOL. It took you long enough.

[DeltaWhisky58]

No, fly boys in general. This is not an issue. Just ask them and then accept that we can kick any nation in the world up the ass when it comes to technology (and flying skills). It's we and the americans, the rest of you are just pesants. ;)

Perdurabo (or was it some other wannabe-fly-pole) have gotten his hands beaten bloody before on this. Look in the archives.

Sweden got crappy economy and a debt in the millions to other countries. Pretty much reminds me of some poor eastern block country whenever I'm there.

If all else fails on the "New plane deal", Norway could just buy SAAB, cancel all deals with Sweden and then move the company to Norway.


Don't you ever give up? SAAB is an automotive manufacturer as well as being the maker of one of the most advanced combat aircraft in the world. Norway has no experience in either field - you can't just "buy" up a company of that level of complexity. Wise up and stop being such a fool.

Thor/Nordmannen - Back off and think some more before your next posts.

[Parzival]

Sweden got crappy economy and a debt in the millions to other countries. Pretty much reminds me of some poor eastern block country whenever I'm there.

If all else fails on the "New plane deal", Norway could just buy SAAB, cancel all deals with Sweden and then move the company to Norway.
Apparently u never been to Sweden, U are also a dumbass.
Than again Norway doesn't know anything about military technology the way SAAB, bofors etc do.....If norway bought them they would be able to build military weapons...HAHAHA....I wish it was that simple.

Your comment is just stupid and you should be banned?

[Resurrection]

Parzival... I think DW handled it pretty well. No need to insult Norway as a country.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Apparently u never been to Sweden, U are also a dumbass.
Than again Norway doesn't know anything about military technology the way SAAB, bofors etc do.....If norway bought them they would be able to build military weapons...HAHAHA....I wish it was that simple.

Your comment is just stupid and you should be banned?

The Moderators decide who will/will not be banned, not you.
Do you want to join the banned list - if not wind your neck in! :bash:

[Greek soldier]

Don't you ever give up? SAAB is an automotive manufacturer as well as being the maker of one of the most advanced combat aircraft in the world. Norway has no experience in either field - you can't just "buy" up a company of that level of complexity. Wise up and stop being such a fool.

Thor/Nordmannen - Back off and think some more before your next posts.

Hedge funds or venture capital institutions can do it and make the so-called "leveraged buy-out". But because such companies (defense) are a matter on national interest, no government will allow to give the 51% and/or the company's management to foreigners.

Example: HDW (vessels, submarines). Previously it belonged to a US Finacial fund (irrelevant sector) but then bought by Thyssen Group (relevant). Again, for national security issues.

PS: Aston-Martin previously belonged to a Greek magnate... and then sold it to Ford.

Just my "business" view...

[signatory]

Phew. Threads about fighter jets and tanks should never go beyond 2 pages...heh someone should invent a autolock mechanism

[Resurrection]

Phew. Threads about fighter jets and tanks should never go beyond 2 pages...heh someone should invent a autolock mechanism

Are you wishing my threads bad luck? :-(

[signatory]

Are you wishing my threads bad luck? :-(

hehehe not at all I wish them good luck :)

[eucalyptus]

Phew. Threads about fighter jets and tanks should never go beyond 2 pages...heh someone should invent a autolock mechanism
Im just suprised that it wasnt the usual signatory-Resurrection-Thor chatter in every thread about Sweden :)
Got more pictures?

[Resurrection]

Im just suprised that it wasnt the usual signatory-Resurrection-Thor chatter in every thread about Sweden :)
Got more pictures?

Hahaha. :lol: Yeah I have some fantastic pics but they're not of the C/D versions, is that ok? Anyway, I'm gonna go to bed soon. So I'll probably try looking for some tomorrow.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

You lie out of your nose or at least your info is incorrect on the Gripen radar.
And what vested interest would I have in lying?


The simultaneously number of tracked targets has never been less than 15 and after Mk3's new computers and MK4 GRETA additional software upg the number is now 28+ (they do not reveal a top number) That's ground and air targets at the same time. It can count and store target data for docked ships in unlimited numbers.

Range is up to 40% higher than the bottom number specified in sales (120km) this is software limitation around the saab concept of don't need it, don't show it. The EriEye airborn radar is another example it has a range beyond 500km but software limited to 350Km in Sweden, 400km for the Greek version. 450km as a sales figure.
You're right. My data were partially wrong- they described the performance of the early PS-05/A variant.

Here are some excerpts from an article published by the Journal of Electronic Defense:


Batch 1 Gripens also received the Rockwell Collins (San Juan, CA) (then Kaiser Electronics) head-up display (HUD) and the Ericsson Microwave (Gothenburg, Sweden) PS-05/A radar. The radar was equipped with a parabolic monopulse antenna developed from the UK's Blue Vixen radar employed by the Sea Harrier FRS.2. The antenna was developed by BAE Systems (then GEC Marconi). Initially, the radar had a range of about 100 km, more or less equal to the Russian MiG-29, the Gripen's potential opponent. However, the larger MiG-29 has a higher radar cross-section than the Gripen, which enables the latter to detect its adversary earlier and gain tactical advantage. The PS-05/A radar on the Batch 1 aircraft used the Ericsson D-80 processor, enabling it to track up to six airborne targets simultaneously and engage up to four of them with the use of AIM-120B AMRAAM missiles. Batch 1 aircraft avionics were integrated with two mission computers, SC-1 and the SMU, and three Mil-Std 1553B data buses.


The next 76 single-seat aircraft were built to the Gripen A Batch 2 standard. They were much improved and represented the first fully operational standard. The avionics system received a single (but more capable) Ericsson mission computer. The radar received a new EP-80E processor, increasing the number of targets that could be tracked simultaneously to 10. Now the radar could perform long-range search; track while scan (TWS); multiple priority target tracking; short-range, wide-angle search and track (combat-maneuver mode); single-target track; and raid assessment. In the air-to-ground mode, the radar could perform long-range search; land and naval priority target track; ground mapping; and surface ranging (for the gun and unguided rockets).


But above all, the Batch 3 is to receive a new Ericsson PS-05/A Mk3 radar, which has just been developed. The radar has a new D-96A high-speed processor with greatly increased computing power. This has enabled some new modes to be incorporated, as well as the ability to track in excess of 20 targets simultaneously (the precise number is classified). The radar range reaches 130-160 km, depending on various factors. In air-to-air search mode, a pilot can select among three patterns of search: 2x120º, 2x60º, or 4x30º. The search rate is 60 degrees per second. An improved radar transmitter and receiver provide good frequency agility and allow variable waveforms: low, medium, and high pulse-repetition frequency (LPRF, MPRF, and HPRF, respectively). The latter mode is used for long-range velocity search (VS) with no ranging, while the MPRF is used for track while scan (TWS).
http://www.edefenseonline.com/default.asp?func=article&aref=07_14_2005_IF_01
btw. The author of the article- Michal Fiszer- is a retired Polish AF officer and a huge Gripen enthusiast.


Christ, mig-31 is a nice jet but why do you need to spread lies about other countries jet... must be embarrased over the state of the AF or something.
As far as I know this thread is about Gripen, and not Brzeczyszczykiewicz's psycho analysis :).
But seriously, I've always been saying that I don't really mind if somebody tries to challenge my data with other ones, taken from credible sources.
Thanks for the informative post and enligtening me about the PS-05/A upgrades- I wasn't aware of their existence (I'm too poor to subscribe all the military/aviation magazines :) )



btw. I've been wondering why some of you guys act so emotional in this and other similar threads. I mean, it's just an airplane, not your wife or girlfriend :) Does it really matter so much to you whether the aircraft A is better than aircraft B, or the other way around?

[Resurrection]

National pride my friend, national pride.

[signatory]

Here are some excerpts from an article published by the Journal of Electronic Defense:

Thanks for that link ! I've been looking for a decent online summary of the radar's capability, as my comments usually only come from memory. But often people demand a source on the net.


btw. I've been wondering why some of you guys act so emotional in this and other similar threads. I mean, it's just an airplane, not your wife or girlfriend :) Does it really matter so much to you whether the aircraft A is better than aircraft B, or the other way around

Lol it's as with sport teams... go into some parts of a city with the wrong colour jersey and you might be killed by fans of a rival team... it's not that I get angry but these type of threads almost always get polluted by 'my dad is bigger than your dad' arguments.. (from fans of both 'teams') after a few years of that the patience run out..

[perdurabo]

No, fly boys in general. This is not an issue. Just ask them and then accept that we can kick any nation in the world up the ass when it comes to technology (and flying skills). It's we and the americans, the rest of you are just pesants. ;)

Perdurabo (or was it some other wannabe-fly-pole) have gotten his hands beaten bloody before on this. Look in the archives.
i don't remeber beeing beaten by someone, but please show me comparison data in tables, maybe i'm wrong.
and BTW chill out noone says grippen is **** so you don't need to be soo agresive
oh and BTW2 i was pilot for short time but because i failed medical exam i can't fly, so you are realy close calling me wanabe-fly-pole i realy want to go back to flying.


It's a well known fact that poles have a grudge againt Gripen because they had to settle with old F-16's and their neighbours/close nations Czech Republic and Hungary now can outfly them.

we don't have grudge grippen scored only 3% less than f16 in our tests, also f16 beeing old was beaten to death first F-16C/D block 50/52 rolled out in 91 and 50/52+ is in froduction since ~2002 oh and for egzample F-16 E/F block 60 has more than 70% of newly designed parts and it first rolled out 2 yeara ago so you can say its old but it just shows your knowledge...

[perdurabo]

thor you said that i said truth about F16 vs Grippen only in hardpoints and payload

Empty weight:
*F-16C: 8,272 kg
*JAS-39C: 6,800 kg

Internal fuel:
*F-16C: 3,160 kg
*JAS-39C: 2,270 kg

Standard weight for air-combat (50% internal fuel, AIM-120*4, AIM-9*2)
*F-16C: 10,900 kg
*JAS-39C: 8,950 kg

Engine and thrust:
*F-16C: F-110-GE-129, 28,984 Ib / 17,155 Ib *1 (Afterburner / Maximal military thrust)
*JAS-39C: RM-12, 18,100 Ib / 12,140 Ib *1 (Afterburner / Maximal military thrust)

# T/W ratio at sea-level, low speed condition:
*F-16C: 1.206 / 0.714 (Afterburner / Maximal military thrust)
*JAS-39C: 0.917 / 0.615 (Afterburner / Maximal military thrust)

did i lied about thrust/weight ratio?
more data will come when i will have more time.

[caridon]

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1029-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-30.html

gives mor info on the j39 vs f16 talk.

read there first. :)

/C

[Resurrection]

Yup I actually did yesterday to jog my memory. And you know what I found out besides the usual stuff? That Greeky is a member there. I knew I had seen that email before.