Nationalities and borders

[Andersson]

What is the point of nationalities and borders between countries? Don´t they just give us a feeling of "us and them", and that way create racism, violence and wars.

I'm not willing to fight for Finnish people just because they happened to be born in the same Counry as I.

Why should I consider a Finn something more valuable than for example a russian? And why should I want things to be better for my nation than some african or asian nation?

I'm from Finland and my life is easy. So, shouldn't I care about the miserable conditions of life in the third world? Should I just be happy for what I've got and give my support to the military forces that try to keep "the others" away?

Should I be as selfish as that?

It's easy to talk about military forces. What could be the best solutions when it comes to defending our nation? Which tanks and helicopters should we buy etc. This is only the surface of the matter but the conversation is totally concentrated on that. Is anyone willing to think, why do we even need weapons. And now you can answer: "That´s the way it is and that´s the way it´s always gonna be. There´s always been violence in the world. It´s in the human nature."

Yeah, sure. That´s easy.

How much money do we have to waste for nothing? How much time?

I'm confused.

[mustamato]

Have you travelled something Andersson, I mean a month with Interrail in Europe
or something like that? If not, do it. You will notice that people are as crazy no
matter from where they are. But there are those small differences in their culture,
and of course language, food and all that, that make Germans unique and different
from in example Italians.

And of course Finns are unique as well. I wouldn´t die for some other Finn I didn´t
know personally, but if Russia would attack and would want to take away the Finns
freedom and would want to "russanize" them, well then I would volunteer. I´m also
for open borders. But I don´t think it´s realistic to think that all people on the earth
can get together in one happy club. There are differences that can´t be ignored,
and the solution with states that rule themselves are thus a necessity in my mind.

[Andersson]

I'm not trying to say that cultural differences should be ignored, of cource not. Every culture is unique and that´s the way it should be.

I admit that I´m not being too realistic. I´m just trying to find out, why there appears to be so much selfishness and intolerance in the world. People are gathering under one certain flag for wrong reasons. That´s my opinion.

When it comes to patriotism, most people define it by military forces, war history and such things. We should be proud of totally different aspects of our culture. Finnish people can eat dark bread and go to sauna without having weapons. Culture shouldn´t be defined by military issues.

And why do we always have to have this image of someone invading us? That is not the right way of building the future, raising children who are likely to inheritate our attitudes.

[RomanS]

Have you travelled something Andersson, I mean a month with Interrail in Europe
or something like that? If not, do it. You will notice that people are as crazy no
matter from where they are. But there are those small differences in their culture,
and of course language, food and all that, that make Germans unique and different
from in example Italians.

And of course Finns are unique as well. I wouldn´t die for some other Finn I didn´t
know personally, but if Russia would attack and would want to take away the Finns
freedom and would want to "russanize" them, well then I would volunteer. I´m also
for open borders. But I don´t think it´s realistic to think that all people on the earth
can get together in one happy club. There are differences that can´t be ignored,
and the solution with states that rule themselves are thus a necessity in my mind.


Russia doesn't need Finland or Sweden. There is nothing to do there. Plus we have our own snow. Stop making yourself sound like an important country of the world there or something.

Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China

[gorg]

Funny, just had a history lesson today on nationalism and the "us and them". It had taken serveral hundred years to think of 'we' as in a nation. Maybe in a few hundred years that will include all Europe.



Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China


Russia? Naee, not anymore not since the Sovjet days

[Pégase]

Russia doesn't need Finland or Sweden. There is nothing to do there. Plus we have our own snow. Stop making yourself sound like an important country of the world there or something.

Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China

that's not a country yet, but u can add EU I think :)

[RomanS]

Funny, just had a history lesson today on nationalism and the "us and them". It had taken serveral hundred years to think of 'we' as in a nation. Maybe in a few hundred years that will include all Europe.



Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China


Russia? Naee, not anymore not since the Sovjet days

Oh yeah, how quickly you forget that THOSE WITH THE NUCLEAR ARSENAL - get to say yes or no.

Otherwise the whole UN and Nato would be in Chechnya now.

[littlefrench]

Have you travelled something Andersson, I mean a month with Interrail in Europe
or something like that? If not, do it. You will notice that people are as crazy no
matter from where they are. But there are those small differences in their culture,
and of course language, food and all that, that make Germans unique and different
from in example Italians.

And of course Finns are unique as well. I wouldn´t die for some other Finn I didn´t
know personally, but if Russia would attack and would want to take away the Finns
freedom and would want to "russanize" them, well then I would volunteer. I´m also
for open borders. But I don´t think it´s realistic to think that all people on the earth
can get together in one happy club. There are differences that can´t be ignored,
and the solution with states that rule themselves are thus a necessity in my mind.


Russia doesn't need Finland or Sweden. There is nothing to do there. Plus we have our own snow. Stop making yourself sound like an important country of the world there or something.

Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China

1)You have forgotten us ! We are not under Britain, we have got the power of veto in UN and we are more rich than you.
2)germany is influent too and is really more opulent than you (and a bit more opulent than us).

The last think which has got Russia is its old influence, its not very adequate army and his veto power.

[Herrmannek]

Russia should worry about their missiles more than rest of the world...

[Sixgun Symphony]

This person talks on both sides of his mouth. First he says that there should be no borders, no nations. Then he says that every culture is unique and that is the way it should be.

This guy needs to make up his mind.

[Elmo]

Rather than listing powerful nations, I'd like to comment this thread with an idea from Rawl's Theory of Justice.

If you were randomly put in a nation in the world, would you like there to be a few dominant and rich countries, a couple of reasonably wealthy countries, and a majority of countries where famine, overpopulation, environmental hazards and unfair trade rules dictate the living conditions...life expectency wouldn't be high. Like our world today.

or

Would you prefer a world with a system of nations more or less equal
in terms of standard of living. Everyone would have at least food and clothing...and some sort of education.

So, roll a dice and see where you end up.

I think this is more what Andersson meant. Why do I have a right to hold to my own, while some have nothing? I earned it? How? By being lucky enough to be born in this rich country? I have a divine right to "defend" my country's interest by killing people? Or do I excuse my actions by saying that I owe it to my grandfather's generation?

[Fenna]

Have you travelled something Andersson, I mean a month with Interrail in Europe
or something like that? If not, do it. You will notice that people are as crazy no
matter from where they are. But there are those small differences in their culture,
and of course language, food and all that, that make Germans unique and different
from in example Italians.

And of course Finns are unique as well. I wouldn´t die for some other Finn I didn´t
know personally, but if Russia would attack and would want to take away the Finns
freedom and would want to "russanize" them, well then I would volunteer. I´m also
for open borders. But I don´t think it´s realistic to think that all people on the earth
can get together in one happy club. There are differences that can´t be ignored,
and the solution with states that rule themselves are thus a necessity in my mind.


Russia doesn't need Finland or Sweden. There is nothing to do there. Plus we have our own snow. Stop making yourself sound like an important country of the world there or something.

Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China

1)You have forgotten us ! We are not under Britain, we have got the power of veto in UN and we are more rich than you.
2)germany is influent too and is really more opulent than you (and a bit more opulent than us).

The last think which has got Russia is its old influence, its not very adequate army and his veto power.

Yeah France has the power of veto in the UN, but does that matter now?

[Sixgun Symphony]

You seem to suffer from a self imposed guilt complex.

Yes, there has been exploitation of "poor nations". But there are nations that have pulled themselves up to become self sufficient if not exactly wealthy by their own merits though they too were once colonized.

Go travel to the poor nations. It is their own corruption and overpopulation that keep them poor.

So if your answer is to flood the wealthy nations with the surplus populations of the fecund poor nations, then you will only drag down all of the word into a Turd World existance.

[Pégase]

Yeah France has the power of veto in the UN, but does that matter now?

do you know the commun point between the nations who have a permanent siege in UN ?

maybe if there was more might and power for UN, everyone on this planet could be under the same banner

but this is deny on what is based the economic politic systems of today, and the Law of the Jungle ...

[citizen-k]

Funny, just had a history lesson today on nationalism and the "us and them". It had taken serveral hundred years to think of 'we' as in a nation. Maybe in a few hundred years that will include all Europe.



Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China


Russia? Naee, not anymore not since the Sovjet days

Oh yeah, how quickly you forget that THOSE WITH THE NUCLEAR ARSENAL - get to say yes or no.

Otherwise the whole UN and Nato would be in Chechnya now.

rofl :hug:

[Elmo]

It's not self imposed guilt, it's recognition of this absurd time we are living in.

Majority of the human race is going down, while the western "civilization" followed up by the pacific rim uses all natural resources, destroys the ozone layer, pollutes the oceans, cuts down rain forests, keeps on building more and more effective ways to kill other people. All this because of our constant need to consume, consume, consume, as long as the economy is growing, everything is ok. Some countries even publically ignore such efforts as Kyoto protocol to do something reasonable for once.

How are the future generations going to look at us? Gee, thank you very much. There isn't any effort to change this course.

And we don't even give the developing countries a chance. Fair trade? Oh no, it's my prrreciousssssssss.....

[UkrainianAmerican]

It's not self imposed guilt, it's recognition of this absurd time we are living in.

Majority of the human race is going down, while the western "civilization" followed up by the pacific rim uses all natural resources, destroys the ozone layer, pollutes the oceans, cuts down rain forests, keeps on building more and more effective ways to kill other people. All this because of our constant need to consume, consume, consume, as long as the economy is growing, everything is ok. Some countries even publically ignore such efforts as Kyoto protocol to do something reasonable for once.

How are the future generations going to look at us? Gee, thank you very much. There isn't any effort to change this course.

And we don't even give the developing countries a chance. Fair trade? Oh no, it's my prrreciousssssssss.....

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
And thats why boys and girls Finns are now officially going to be designated by me as a "disadvantaged people"
What a retard...

[M_S]

Russia is not a superpower,maybe they will be later when they begin to use their resources properly. They can wave around with their missiles but they will hopefully never even think about threatening other countries with them.

The reason why the Western world are so much richer than the rest of the world is to some extent because of colonialism. The western world is superior, but not because of its better civilization, but because its better on orginazied violence.

After taking the biggest portion of the "cake" we sit back and say that we have a better civilization, that we are more humane. If we become poor again for some reason i have no doubt we would counquer other countries and fight eachother as we did just 60 years ago.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Russia is not a superpower,maybe they will be later when they begin to use their resources properly. They can wave around with their missiles but they will hopefully never even think about threatening other countries with them.

The reason why the Western world are so much richer than the rest of the world is to some extent because of colonialism. The western world is superior, but not because of its better civilization, but because its better on orginazied violence.

After taking the biggest portion of the "cake" we sit back and say that we have a better civilization, that we are more humane. If we become poor again for some reason i have no doubt we would counquer other countries and fight eachother as we did just 60 years ago.
sig situation rectified.

[Elmo]

RussianAmerican,

obviously you don't have any substance to add to this thread which seems to frustrate you. Try to contain yourself. This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not an insult forum.

[seventy6er]

Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China

Nice one Permskii! :lol:

[Kilgor]

Russia
China
USA
Britian
India (soon)

So called UN veto's arnt worth the paper their written on.

[UkrainianAmerican]

RussianAmerican,

obviously you don't have any substance to add to this thread which seems to frustrate you. Try to contain yourself. This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not an insult forum.
Dont insult/blame my culture civilization for the ineptitude of some third world loosers.
That will be all.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yeah France has the power of veto in the UN, but does that matter now?

do you know the commun point between the nations who have a permanent siege in UN ?

maybe if there was more might and power for UN, everyone on this planet could be under the same banner

but this is deny on what is based the economic politic systems of today, and the Law of the Jungle ...

There will always be some kind of conflict. Don't matter the system or systems in place.

BTW, I am not a fan of big government. Usually, government is the problem. So I don't like the concept of a global government.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah France has the power of veto in the UN, but does that matter now?

do you know the commun point between the nations who have a permanent siege in UN ?

maybe if there was more might and power for UN, everyone on this planet could be under the same banner

but this is deny on what is based the economic politic systems of today, and the Law of the Jungle ...

There will always be some kind of conflict. Don't matter the system or systems in place.

BTW, I am not a fan of big government. Usually, government is the problem. So I don't like the concept of a global government.
Especially a global governmetn full of oderous dictatorships, like the U.N.

[RomanS]

Russia is not a superpower,maybe they will be later when they begin to use their resources properly. They can wave around with their missiles but they will hopefully never even think about threatening other countries with them.

The reason why the Western world are so much richer than the rest of the world is to some extent because of colonialism. The western world is superior, but not because of its better civilization, but because its better on orginazied violence.

After taking the biggest portion of the "cake" we sit back and say that we have a better civilization, that we are more humane. If we become poor again for some reason i have no doubt we would counquer other countries and fight eachother as we did just 60 years ago.

We don't have to threaten anyone. It seems that the world has a lot more problems with Russia. Its a jelaousy thing. Its ok, we understand.

As for US, god Bless America, and soon Russia will control the other side of the globe. USA controls one side of the globe, and Russia controls the other. And all the problems in the little countries are solved on the phone, while playing golf with each other.

[mustamato]

As for US, god Bless America, and soon Russia will control the other side of the globe. USA controls one side of the globe, and Russia controls the other. And all the problems in the little countries are solved on the phone, while playing golf with each other.

Hardly. I would rather say "USA - EU - Japan". Given that Russia is more or
less dependant on loans from these countries (given thru IMF).

[UkrainianAmerican]

As for US, god Bless America, and soon Russia will control the other side of the globe. USA controls one side of the globe, and Russia controls the other. And all the problems in the little countries are solved on the phone, while playing golf with each other.

Hardly. I would rather say "USA - EU - Japan". Given that Russia is more or
less dependant on loans from these countries (given thru IMF).
E.U. wont save Sweden and FInland from ZEE MAYTEE BEAAAR!!
Muhahahahaha!

[Russian Texan]

Given that Russia is more or
less dependant on loans from these countries (given thru IMF).

And how much do you think Russia owes to IMF, current number please.

Russia has never depended nor needed any loans, certain individuals did. In Russia power means money and all of the "no strings attached" loans are simply ended up in the bank accounts of the corrupt officials who requeted them to their own benefit but the West was/is to dumb to see it.
"No strings attached" are the money that could be spent on anything and those were about 12% of all the loans. The other 82% were "contract" money, which means: we give you $100 mill and you buy $100 mill of our goods.

Basically IMF loans are an overplayed and overeggagerated media myth.
If there is anything that Russia's economy depending on - it is oil, as some people speculate, and since oil is not getting any cheaper, I think Russia is pretty safe.
In the end of the day Russia is one of very few countries that can say "screw you" to everyone, built a fence around it and live happily ever after due to the fact that it is sitting on top of ~40% of all planet's Earth natural resources...
Trust me, do not worry about Russia, it is doing great and better every day :)
BTW, mustamato, Would you remind me please where from European countries get their oil, natural gas, wood, steel, aluminum, ect., you know things like that...?


Of course Rus could have been doing much better if it didn't take on all of the former USSR republics debts and started from scratch but the Russians decided to be generous and noble... Actually it wasn't noble, it was well calculated: we(Russia) take on USSR debts, play pseudo-democracy and you (IMF, European countries, US) give us loans.
In the end of the day westerners were played around like suckers (and indeed they were), some russians became overnight billionaries, some became millionaries and the general population of Russia lost as usual...

My dear European friends, please understand that Russians will never respect you and your countries because all of you are "lohi" by birth... and it is not an insult, it is a diagnosis - simple like that.

[SFontaine]

It's so funny seeing some of these PROUD RED ARMY SOLDIERS getting all nostalgic for the days Russia mattered. News flash guys.. The US and the free world is more concerned with people like Osama Bin Laden and the like now.. You're no longer the big bad guy on the block and you control your country and not much else. You can't even bring Chechnya into line.

[Ozzy]

Dear sirs, let to interfere...
As they say, from the party it is visible better.
And it is visible, that while you argue on distinction of cultures, you grasp, have already grasped, representatives of " the poor countries "
And, they do not ask your opinion, him to spit on the western humanism. I was this summer in Paris, I did not see white persons, was not present saw, it were the American tourists.
In England cities have appeared, which natives of Pakistan have declared closed for white people. The Lord as it is sad, you any more owners in own house.
What for to us Europe? To calm your Arabian nationalists. To us the to calm.

Excuse for the emotional statement

[Jack Mehoff]

As for US, god Bless America, and soon Russia will control the other side of the globe. USA controls one side of the globe, and Russia controls the other. And all the problems in the little countries are solved on the phone, while playing golf with each other.

Hardly. I would rather say "USA - EU - Japan". Given that Russia is more or
less dependant on loans from these countries (given thru IMF).

EU is a country? :lol:

[Jack Mehoff]

Russia
China
USA
Britian
India (soon)

So called UN veto's arnt worth the paper their written on.

Not enough McDonald, Microsoft and Friends for you or what?

[mustamato]

My dear European friends, please understand that Russians will never respect you and your countries because all of you are "lohi" by birth... and it is not an insult, it is a diagnosis - simple like that.

Lohi? That´s salmon in Finnish but I don´t think you meant that. And it´s
not like most Europeans have a huge respect for the Ruskie Bear nowadays
either:

http://www.broderskap.se/tidningen/_artiklar_1999/1699murmansk.jpg

[Russian Texan]

Lohi? That´s salmon in Finnish but I don´t think you meant that.

No, "loh" is russian for certain type of man. An approximate translation would be: "someone who is easy to take advantage of, gullible person, a sucker".

And that is the picture of ....?

Btw, mustamato, how about my IMF question, what's the amount?

[Elmo]

I'm saddened.

This thread started by questioning the nationalistic discourse which manifests itself by military boasting. One of the main questions was: why is my country so much better and even if it really is...let's say wealthier, how have I earned the right to live there, crushing the developing countries with unfair trade and if necessary, weapons. Why is there this everyone for himself -thinking, even when it has nothing to do with you. YOU haven't earned anything by yourself, YOU are not better than anyone in the third world countries.

And here we have the ex-members of a certain ex-country comparing who's ex-country used to have the biggest...everything.

[Andersson]

Funny. Or actually sad.

I started this conversation by wondering, what is the reason for all the hate and frustration. I wanted to gain some serious thinking of the reasons of violence and miltary competing. About wrong effects of nationalism.

And what did I get? You have driven yourselves into an argument about which countries are the most powerful ones. Who rules the world and who doesn´t. Of cource you have also started to insult and ignore each other. Is there any way of making this world a better and more peaceful place as long as it´s all about competing?

After all, we share the same recources, don't we? Wouldn´t it be fear if everyone could get the same amount of them?

[mustamato]

Well there are probably several different explanations to why people are like
they are and why these discussions always turn out like this. Personally I base
my explanation on what I´ve have learnt at the University, and especially in
archeology, and the processual archaelogical methods (of which the
man in link 2 has inspired me most) and anthropology.

In plain english: The human race is still adapted to be a "hunter and gatherer"
and we are adapted to live in small groups of 30-40 persons (think: modern
primitive tribes). The modern society is with other words the same **** but just
more advanced, humans are still "hunters", but just show it differently today.
Today the girls like to shop ("gather") while the boys play football ("hunt") etc.
The ***** size comparisons on Internet forums, well to me it´s kind of "protecting"
the own tribe just as you would protect your friend if someone tried to whoop
his ass. And most people have about 30-40 friends and people they say "hi"
to, just as we are adapted to during millions of years of evolution. Thus I think
personally that it´s inevitable. Well in the perfect world all would be friends,
but that´s unfortunately not possible.

http://www.indiana.edu/~wanthro/theory.htm

http://www.csus.edu/anth/trobriand/depth/GBCV.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processualism (popular view in America)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_processualism (popular view in Europe)

[-Max2-]

As for US, god Bless America, and soon Russia will control the other side of the globe. USA controls one side of the globe, and Russia controls the other. And all the problems in the little countries are solved on the phone, while playing golf with each other.

rofl

Good joke...

And where is Europe ? Dont forget, my Russian friend, that the EU has a similar GDP (about €7 trillion) to US...

[Andersson]

Well there are probably several different explanations to why people are like
they are and why these discussions always turn out like this. Personally I base
my explanation on what I´ve have learnt at the University, and especially in
archeology, and the processual archaelogical methods (of which the
man in link 2 has inspired me most) and anthropology.



Again, I´m totally admitting my idealistic point of view. But I seriously think, that without idealism there wouldn´t be any progress.

I´m also familiar with many theories of sociology, anthropology, philosophy and political sciences, also studied at the university (by the way, this may offer a great weapon to those willing to blaime me, and also you mustamato, of being some smart ass who doesn´t know anything about reality).

It´s good to know the theoretical aspects to base your opinions on. But of course it´s not so black and white.

Again, people have the freedom of choise. I don´t want to believe in some mysterious "human nature".

As much as a will of strenght can be used in distructive acts (as war), it can also be used in good things, such as enviromental an human issues.

We are not doomed to kill each other and compete for recources. We ARE able to share. Obvioulsy inside smaller groups (families). So why not in a bigger scale?

[mustamato]

I guess it was easier in the past when every question like yours could be squeezed in to the paradigm of the day. Like the medieval man that was told every Sunday in the church that the end was near because of the sins of Adam and Eva, and because everything was obviously degenerating compared to the glorious past (the Roman empire).

I don´t really know what kind of paradigm we are living in at the´moment, that´s usually for the future to decide and designate. Scientifically there are more answers today than in the past in most scientific fields, but it also seems that in the humanistic field with history, philosophy and so forth there are today even more questions than before, that can´t be answered. For the history of man, I believe more or less in a linear theory, in a kind of Darwinistic approach to it all.

This professor Burenhult I mentioned has a theory in that the humans got lost on the track about 6000-8000 years ago when they began farming. He has lived with and studied several modern primitive tribes. In these there are no depression, no typical western diseases, no stress, the women are equal etc in contrast to the societies were we with Internet live in. And more importantly relevant to this thread, there are more or less no aggressivnes in the way westerners think of it. Of course the instinct to defend yourself from wild animals etc is built in with every man, but most of the traditional warrior cultures have all been herds or farmers that has been more or less domiciled.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Have you travelled something Andersson, I mean a month with Interrail in Europe
or something like that? If not, do it. You will notice that people are as crazy no
matter from where they are. But there are those small differences in their culture,
and of course language, food and all that, that make Germans unique and different
from in example Italians.

And of course Finns are unique as well. I wouldn´t die for some other Finn I didn´t
know personally, but if Russia would attack and would want to take away the Finns
freedom and would want to "russanize" them, well then I would volunteer. I´m also
for open borders. But I don´t think it´s realistic to think that all people on the earth
can get together in one happy club. There are differences that can´t be ignored,
and the solution with states that rule themselves are thus a necessity in my mind.


Russia doesn't need Finland or Sweden. There is nothing to do there. Plus we have our own snow. Stop making yourself sound like an important country of the world there or something.

Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China

You don't have ice free harbours in the atlantic, and you don't control the baltic sea.

[M_S]

If russia would cut off all its contacts with the rest of the world it would soon fall behind in technology.

[Russian Texan]

If russia would cut off all its contacts with the rest of the world it would soon fall behind in technology.
What makes you think so?

[Russian Texan]

Have you travelled something Andersson, I mean a month with Interrail in Europe
or something like that? If not, do it. You will notice that people are as crazy no
matter from where they are. But there are those small differences in their culture,
and of course language, food and all that, that make Germans unique and different
from in example Italians.

And of course Finns are unique as well. I wouldn´t die for some other Finn I didn´t
know personally, but if Russia would attack and would want to take away the Finns
freedom and would want to "russanize" them, well then I would volunteer. I´m also
for open borders. But I don´t think it´s realistic to think that all people on the earth
can get together in one happy club. There are differences that can´t be ignored,
and the solution with states that rule themselves are thus a necessity in my mind.


Russia doesn't need Finland or Sweden. There is nothing to do there. Plus we have our own snow. Stop making yourself sound like an important country of the world there or something.

Like i said before. There are very few countries that control the live on our planet

USA
Russia
Britain
China

You don't have ice free harbours in the atlantic, and you don't control the baltic sea.

And what difference does that make?

[mustamato]

You don't have ice free harbours in the atlantic, and you don't control the baltic sea.

And what difference does that make?

Would mean quite much in the case of a large-scale conflict. During world war 2
the Soviet baltic fleet was more or less trapped in Leningrad, would be so again.
The Baltic sea is one of the worlds most trafficated waters (especially between
Sweden and Denmark) at Öresund. Lots of $$ and strategic value in controlling
the waters in the case of war. But sadly for Russia it would not be possible.

And if they try, say hello to

http://www.mil.fi/merivoimat/joukot/smmepa/full/kuva09.jpg
... with friends

[Russian Texan]

Would mean quite much in the case of a large-scale conflict
Why? How?

I am sorry to dissapoint you but in case of a
large-scale conflict Russia has the upper hand in firepower...

Say hello to
http://www.skyrocket.de/space/img_lau/ss18_3.jpg

SS 18 ;)

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Would mean quite much in the case of a large-scale conflict
Why? How?

I am sorry to dissapoint you but in case of a
large-scale conflict Russia has the upper hand in firepower...

Say hello to
http://www.skyrocket.de/space/img_lau/ss18_3.jpg

SS 18 ;)

Why don't/didn't you use them in Chechenya and Afganistan?

:) (you don't have to explain, no sane person would use nukes for more than a last retaliation)

[Russian Texan]

USSR shouldn't have been in Afganistan at all.
Chechnya should have been left alone and surrounded with minefields after the evacuation of all russians out of it.

[mack pl]

USA,Russia,China,Britain control the live on the our planet-Permskii :cantbeli: What with France ;) Buahahaha

[tooms]

USA,Russia,China,Britain control the live on the our planet-Permskii :cantbeli: What with France ;) Buahahaha

USA is the single country that "control" the world , and maybe china in the asian region

[perdurabo]

USA,Russia,China,Britain control the live on the our planet-Permskii :cantbeli: What with France ;) Buahahaha

USA is the single country that "control" the world , and maybe china in the asian regionIndia Japan and other countrys will disagree with you :P

[mack pl]

If USA are single country who control world, whats up with Cuba ;) BTW if Britain control live in the world,whats up with f***n Mugabe in Zimbabwe?He dont like british farmers :(

[littlefrench]

USA,Russia,China,Britain control the live on the our planet-Permskii :cantbeli: What with France ;) Buahahaha

USA is the single country that "control" the world , and maybe china in the asian regionIndia Japan and other countrys will disagree with you :P

And france too.
We are as opulent as the Brits and we have got a army as strong as their.
We have got the veto power, the nuclear power and we are one of the most important states of Europa.

[mack pl]

Please, dont start with thread-what do you think about my country ;) BTW if you dont saw that, i wrote about France, so i see how BIG and IMPORTANT is France ;) .So, dont affraid Littlefrench,we dont forget about your country,never ;) France is super hiper country woot BTW veto is f***n ****,you shouldnt(anyone) have it :( Regards.Viva la France,Viva la Pologne :lol:

[UkrainianAmerican]

Wow, this is getting pathetic.
France? India? Japan?
You people sure do know what to smoke.

[mack pl]

Who is pathetic?BTW what you are smoking now?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Who is pathetic?BTW what you are smoking now?
I just finished a filterless Camel blend and didnt drink anything yet.
You?

[Jack Mehoff]

USA,Russia,China,Britain control the live on the our planet-Permskii :cantbeli: What with France ;) Buahahaha

USA is the single country that "control" the world , and maybe china in the asian regionIndia Japan and other countrys will disagree with you :P

"Control" is not the right word, more like "influence". Yes, United States influence pretty much everybody.

[Elmo]

Nation-states are like spoilt little brats. They just want to control the World. Their attitudes towards their best interests are like Gollum with the Ring. Although it's called rational behaviour (maximize the profit) it's irrational in the long run. This planet is going down the gutter.

This kind of greed causes cut corners. Take mad cow's disease for example: people fed their animals with other cows' brains. Yep, someone saved a few pieces of currency but the outcome was a near disaster.

Now, some nations want to make sure no-one will take away their precioussss, so they develope dooms-day weapons. It'll only need one little human error which tend to happen and the human race will obliterate everything they so much want to protect: their insignificant possessions.

Homo Oeconomicus is the peak of evolution. Western democratic model and capitalism are called The End of History. Errare truly humanum est.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Nation-states are like spoilt little brats. They just want to control the World. Their attitudes towards their best interests are like Gollum with the Ring. Although it's called rational behaviour (maximize the profit) it's irrational in the long run. This planet is going down the gutter.

This kind of greed causes cut corners. Take mad cow's disease for example: people fed their animals with other cows' brains. Yep, someone saved a few pieces of currency but the outcome was a near disaster.

Now, some nations want to make sure no-one will take away their precioussss, so they develope dooms-day weapons. It'll only need one little human error which tend to happen and the human race will obliterate everything they so much want to protect: their insignificant possessions.

Homo Oeconomicus is the peak of evolution. Western democratic model and capitalism are called The End of History. Errare truly humanum est.
Where do these people come from?!

[Steve Railsback]

I know that this hasn’t got any thing to do about the topic in this tread, but………..
I think that the trade routs of the world say something about who has influence in this tiny world.
Today the major trade routes in the world are between U.S. Europe and Japan, because these are the major consumer countries/regions. In Asia there are also some emerging markets like the 4 tigers (Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia and Hong Kong….I think)

Some one asked for national debt figures?
• Russia $153.5 billion (yearend 2002)
• USA $862 billion (1995 est.)
• Didn’t find any figures from the EU, UK, France or Germany

[mack pl]

Russian American-i dont smoke anything(its ugly) ;) And like you i didnt drink anything :( Maybe tommorow i will drink few beers :)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Scientifically there are more answers today than in the past in most scientific fields, but it also seems that in the humanistic field with history, philosophy and so forth there are today even more questions than before, that can’t be answered.

IMHO - this is because we are now afflicted with moral relativism & nihilism (especially among the young). When nothing means anything, what do you value or hate? Many people, particularly academics, can no longer even separate "good" from "evil". Everything is relative, since the needle has fallen off the moral compass.


This professor Burenhult I mentioned has a theory in that the humans got lost on the track about 6000-8000 years ago when they began farming. He has lived with and studied several modern primitive tribes. In these there are no depression, no typical western diseases, no stress, the women are equal etc in contrast to the societies were we with Internet live in. And more importantly relevant to this thread, there are more or less no aggressivnes in the way westerners think of it. Of course the instinct to defend yourself from wild animals etc is built in with every man, but most of the traditional warrior cultures have all been herds or farmers that has been more or less domiciled.

Man, I don't know what "modern primitive" tribes he was hanging out with, but this is completely contrary to what I've observed. Don't you watch National Geographic specials? Y'know, where the guys tie rocks to their nads & compete for women based on the longest sac? Tribes in the wilds of Brazil are still conquering & enslaving their neighbors even now. The notion of primitive man being free from "modern" human traits is a myth (well, except maybe for the disease part, but just give that time).

This whole thread is predicated on a notion that I reject. It somehow supposes that if we all just form a circle & agree to disagree, things would be fine. This completely discounts human nature & the action of individuals who act contrary to the goals of the group. Would we all become robots & serve the common good? Just come to an understanding that nobody is to excel & be rewarded more than his neighbor, have things others don't have, etc? Never gonna happen. There will always be a wolf among the sheep.

[Elmo]

This whole thread is predicated on a notion that I reject. It somehow supposes that if we all just form a circle & agree to disagree, things would be fine. This completely discounts human nature & the action of individuals who act contrary to the goals of the group. Would we all become robots & serve the common good? Just come to an understanding that nobody is to excel & be rewarded more than his neighbor, have things others don't have, etc? Never gonna happen. There will always be a wolf among the sheep.

Yes, you have a point there.

However, this shouldn't mean we must abandon these ideals. Economy and profit making has become an end in itself. I want to stress the irrationality of this utilitarian ideology. The climate is going to change drastically. Nothing gets done. Sustainable development is a joke to these people. Kyoto protocol yields to economics way too much and still the government which is responsible for the biggest amount of pollution in the world refuses to ratify it.

There is nothing good in this. Economies are being heaten up by all the wrong reasons. Both the producers and consumers are running after the needs that have to be created and fulfilled in a neverending cycle. Products are designed to break down after the guarantee expires, western households are full of stuff that are not necessary. All this on the expense of the globe. Humans have been here for what...a blink of an eye and have already nearly destroyed the ecosystem.

All this and we can't give developing countries a break. We even refuse to give the third world farmer a chance to sell his products on his own markets!

"I'm not gonna let anyone take anything that I have earned away from ME! Guns! MY COUNTRY needs guns, more guns!"