Top Chechen Rebel killed in Chechnya!!

[Navid]

WOOT WOOOT.. gooo russia!! kill those terrorists.. when i saw the article i was like GOD PLEASE LET IT BE BASAYVE.. anyway the top chechen commander killed is ruslan ruslan galaeyev.. now if this report turns out be tru its great news for russia and the whole world a terrorist is dead.. im sure 16 opr and perminksi or some of fellow brothers from russia could explaine more about this guy.. from what iv read about chechnya he was up there with the mashadov basayves kattabs.. so this is a important victory.. heres the article below.. by the way i hate that pavel idiot!!

Russia says kills top Chechen rebel

By Oliver Bullough

MOSCOW, March 1 (*******) - Russian forces said on Monday they had killed a top Chechen commander, an announcement likely to boost the election campaign of President Vladimir Putin, whose reputation is built on a hardline stance on Chechnya.

But some analysts doubted the news, saying this was the third time Ruslan Gelayev's death had been announced by Dagestan authorities this year. Military commanders could be competing for the kudos of claiming his death since his December raid into Dagestan, which borders separatist Chechnya, they said.

"He was killed on February 28. In the fight we lost two men and he was the only rebel killed," said a spokesman for the Dagestan border guards, who battled Gelayev's rebels before the New Year, losing around a dozen men.

There was no confirmation of the death from separatist news sources, but a representative of the General Prosecutor's office told Russian media Gelayev's corpse had been identified by fellow rebels who had been wounded in the attack.

Gelayev was a top commander of separatists who drove Russian forces out of Chechnya in 1996. Three years later, Putin, then prime minister, sent troops back, driving the rebels into the mountains along the border in a wildly popular war that catapulted him to the presidency.

Putin declared organised resistance over in Chechnya almost exactly four years ago, but rebels have been fighting a bitter guerrilla war ever since and Russian forces lose men daily.

Despite the losses, Putin has refused to modify his hardline stance or enter into talks with people he calls terrorists.

While Putin is sure to welcome Gelayev's death, independent defence analyst Pavel Felgenhauer urged caution over the news.

"Last year he was killed about twice. And this is the third time he has been killed this year, so I think we need to be a bit careful about accepting this," Felgenhauer said.

Moscow is keen to present Chechnya as returning to normal, and has been pressuring the thousands of refugees still living in neighbouring Ingushetia to return home, saying there is no need for them to remain in exile.

Many refugees say they are being forced to return home before the Russian presidential poll on March 14 to make it appear that the conflict is over.

On Monday, Bart camp -- one of three remaining large tent camps in Ingushetia -- was closed as the last families packed up their bags to return to Chechnya, where they have been promised compensation for lost property.

"If we do not go back, we run the risk of not receiving compensation for our house. There are also rumours that the government will agree with the humanitarian organisations and only give out food in Chechnya," said Magomed Musayev from Grozny, explaining why he had chosen to go back home.



03/01/04 12:07 ET

Copyright 2003 ******* Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of ******* content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of *******. ******* shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

[Kingpin]

Killed, killed. This time - in reality. :)

[Kingpin]

I don't know graphic these photos or not. Here:
http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/631978_20040302111344.gif
http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/631979_20040302111344.gif

http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/631981_20040302111526.gif

[Kingpin]

Death of Chechen terrorist Ruslan Gelaev
03/02/2004 13:36
On March 1 in Makhachkala, Dagestan imprisoned Chechen terrorists identified the dead body of one of their most notorious commanders - Ruslan (Khamzat) Gelaev.
The terrorist leader was killed neither by commandos nor by special servicemen, but by two young frontier guards. They ran into him in the outskirts of their native village.

According to Kommersant newspaper, on February 28 Gelaev"s bodyguard and herder took Gelaev to the lower part of Chaekha ravine stretching from Chechen village Bezhty to Pankisskoe ravine in Georgia. There Black Angel (the call-sign of Gelaev) said good-bye to his companions and started climbing the ravine. After losing all his soldiers in unsuccessful raid in Dagestan, Gelaev decided to go through the mountain passes to his main base in Pankisskoe ravine in Georgia where his wives, children and relatives are living. The terrorist leader started most of his raids from Pankisskoe ravine. He recruited people from all the area of the former USSR for his military units.

This time Gelaev failed to reach the ravine. According to the information of the police station in Bezhta village, at the same time two 22-year old local residents - soldiers Abdulkhalik Kurbanov and Mukhtar Suleimanov were climbing down Chaekha ravine. After completing their mandatory military service in a small frontier post, the young men continued guarding the state border on contract basis. The frontier post was only 10 kilometers away from their native village, and the soldiers used to visit the village to have a meal, meet girlfriends or spend a weekend. On Saturday of February 28 Abdulkhalik Kurbanov wanted to visit his wife (he married only two months before), and Mukhtar Suleimanov who was not married decided to make a company to his fellow-soldier.

Even the most experienced frontier guard would hardly recognize Gelaev in the man the two soldiers ran into. Ruffled beard, black shabby pants from jumpsuit, old parka and rubber boots made him look like a beggar, not a dangerous terrorist commander.

It is hard to say what exactly happened. Probably, one of the frontier guards called Gelaev or tried to check his ID - and the militant opened fire from his machine-gun. Gelaev fired point-blankly, probably he was hiding his short-barreled machine-gun under his parka until the very last moment, and both the frontier guards immediately fell bleeding heavily. The bullet hit the head of Soldier Suleimanov and immediately killed him. Abdulkhalik Kurbanov was wounded in his chest, but was able to fire back. His bullets shattered Gelaev"s left elbow and tore away his hand. This did not spot the militant - he killed the soldier with two point-blank shot into his head. Gelaev was holding his machine-gun with one hand.

Black Angel himself had little time to live. The traces on the snow witnessed the last moments of the terrorist"s life.

Immediately after the fight Gelaev ran up to the ravine, but he was able to run only about 50 meters - he became weaker with every step because blood was pouring out of his hand. Gelaev was fighting for life until the very last moment. He stopped, cut off his left hand with the knife and threw it onto the snow. Then he took tourniquet out of his first-aid kit and put it on the wound, made several steps, fell, got up again. He walked another 50 meters and stopped, took a can of coffee out of his pocket and chewed some coffee powder. Probably Gelaev hoped this would give him more strength. Then he took out and bit a bar of chocolate.

Gelaev was grabbling his last meters to the Georgian border. He died in this pose with his hand gripping the bar of chocolate. Policemen looking for the lost frontier guards found his dead body.

[mack pl]

Maybe for Russian he was only dirty terrorist, but he die like a man.He wasnt loser.

[Russian Texan]

Maybe for Russian he was only dirty terrorist, but he die like a man.He wasnt loser.

I am very sorry that you have lost your role model.

The "man" kidnapped kids, tortured prisoners, took women as hostages, killed numerous civilians and even his own man who didn't follow his orders...and you are sympathetic to him?
Poland and Russia will never be friends, as long as there are people like you...

[mack pl]

Relax dude. I dont said i love Gelayev, i only said he die like a man, with gun in hand.BTW i agree, Poland and Russia will be ever friends,but i dont care.

[Russian Texan]

but i dont care.

Does anyone? :)

[mack pl]

Does anyone? Hmmm.I think, NO.

[Russian Texan]

but i dont care.

Does anyone? :)

That was sarcasm...

[mack pl]

Yeah,i know ;)

[Kingpin]

Relax dude. I dont said i love Gelayev, i only said he die like a man, with gun in hand.BTW i agree, Poland and Russia will be ever friends,but i dont care.

Did he have any choice?

[mack pl]

NYET ;)

[Russian Texan]

Just shows you how quickly things can change: one day you are fearsom field commander/warlord with hundreds of people at your disposal and the next day you are dying on the snow from the loss of blood and there is no one to help you...
Of course Saddams situation was even more ironic: from a person with unlimited power and multiple palaces to a manhole...

[OldRecon]

1) Why give the guy/face a name? Just another dead dog, right?
http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/631981_20040302111526.gif

2) Headshot? (At least his melon looks pretty stitched up.)
http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/631979_20040302111344.gif

[mustamato]

Just shows you how quickly things can change: one day you are fearsom field commander/warlord with hundreds of people at your disposal and the next day you are dying on the snow from the loss of blood and there is no one to help you...
Of course Saddams situation was even more ironic: from a person with unlimited power and multiple palaces to a manhole...

Can happen in less dramatic ways as well

http://www.gallerym.com/pixs/photogs/pulitzer/images/boris_yeltsin_russian_elections.jpg

Now he only controll his vodka bottle.

[Russian Texan]

[http://www.gallerym.com/pixs/photogs/pulitzer/images/boris_yeltsin_russian_elections.jpg[/img]
Now he only controll his vodka bottle.

Ha, you should see him now: ever since he qui t- he looks like he is 50 years old and full of energy.

3 worst Russian leaders of the 20th century:
Nicholas II
Gorbachev
Elczin

[Kingpin]

2) Headshot? (At least his melon looks pretty stitched up.)


Autopsy?

[Kingpin]

BTW some video from TV about this case (streaming, left-click)
mms://video.rfn.ru/rtr-vesti/29402.asf

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well at least he didnt cry or cower like a b*tch when his time was up, looks like the Russians gave him some time to "clear his head" if ya catch my drift ;)

1 down....who knows how many others to go.

[AK-Lover]

Nice one RUSSIA! Way to go to those guys that got him! woot woot :D

[anonymous individual]

I feel sorry for Abdulkhalik Kurbanov and Mukhtar Suleimanov....

[Kilgor]

3 worst Russian leaders of the 20th century:
Nicholas II
Gorbachev
Elczin

What was wrong with Gorbachev ???

Ummm... where is stalin in that list ???

[Operation Ivy]

Stalin = Bad :slap:

[George W. Bush]

LOL.. Russia used to have dictators.

[admar2]

3 worst Russian leaders of the 20th century:
Nicholas II
Gorbachev
Elczin

Stalin doesn't make your top 3???

:cantbeli:

[Russian Texan]

3 worst Russian leaders of the 20th century:
Nicholas II
Gorbachev
Elczin

What was wrong with Gorbachev ???

Ummm... where is stalin in that list ???
Stalin is not on the list because it wasn't "A ruler with the highest bodycount" list.
Stalin turned an agricultural, peasant nation that still lived in the 19th century and enjoyed 90% illiteracy rate into industrial and well educated powerhouse, plus significantly expanded its borders.
Now, the methods that he used....but that is the subject of a completely different conversation.

All of those three were weak leaders and didn't cause anything but trouble for Russia.
Nicholas II was way to liberal for a Czar and had no control whatsoever, because of him and his policies Russia has lost naval war with Japan, got involved into WWI for no reason and the highlight of his reign - October Revolution...

Gorbachev was the reincarnation of of Nicholas II and simply let USSR spin out of control and caused much unneccessary suffering to its population. If he was smart he'd look at China as a role model for a transition from communism to capitalism. He just wanted to be popular in the world and obviously succeded: everyone likes him but russians, don't take my word for it - ask any russian that lived through and after "Perestrojka". Couple of years ago one major Russian newspaper had a poll regarding his activities as a leader of USSR - 93% said that he had done a poor job...

Elczin, well, Elczin was simply a constantly drunk moron who almost pushed Russia into complete chaos and anarchy.
His career highlights: destruction of whatever economy was left after USSR, almost complete destruction and starvetion of the military, "blooming" of corruption and organized crime, creation of the "family" (an inner circle whos full time job was taking money out of Russian economy), first Chechen war, those just to name a few. The only smart/good thing that he had ever done, was to name Putin as his successor.

Frankly, given what those guys have done - I am honestly, genuinely surprised that Russia is still on the map...

That list only reflects my views and opinions, other Russians might disagree.

I have tried to explain you guys so many times but you seem never to get it - democracy is not a Russian way to go, they saw it and didn't like it...
Russians need a Czar: strong charismatic leader in charge, that is why they like Putin so much - he is the one....

[Kilgor]

Stalin turned an agricultural, peasant nation that still lived in the 19th century and enjoyed 90% illiteracy rate into industrial and well educated powerhouse, plus significantly expanded its borders.
Now, the methods that he used....but that is the subject of a completely different conversation.



At the cost of 20 MILLION lives ? (and thats the small end of estimates)
He turned Russia into a state of fear, nothing short of Orwell's 1984.
His savage purge of the Red army cost numerious lives, and allowed Hitler to walk into the country basically untroubled. He refused to believe the intelligence given to him that Hitler was likely to invade, even when tanks were massing on the border. Russia would have not suffered as much Nazi pain if the Red Army had been properly ready.

A brutal, murderous, paranoid man who even killed his own wife, = a bad leader.

That fact he purged over 30,000 red army officers , and that it nearly cost him the war makes him a terrible leader.

[Russian Texan]

Stalin turned an agricultural, peasant nation that still lived in the 19th century and enjoyed 90% illiteracy rate into industrial and well educated powerhouse, plus significantly expanded its borders.
Now, the methods that he used....but that is the subject of a completely different conversation.



At the cost of 20 MILLION lives ? (and thats the small end of estimates)
He turned Russia into a state of fear, nothing short of Orwell's 1984.
His savage purge of the Red army cost numerious lives, and allowed Hitler to walk into the country basically untroubled. He refused to believe the intelligence given to him that Hitler was likely to invade, even when tanks were massing on the border. Russia would have not suffered as much Nazi pain if the Red Army had been properly ready.

A brutal, murderous, paranoid man who even killed his own wife, = a bad leader.

All of them are valid points except if not for him there would be no Russia.
What people in the west don't realise that without him, chances are, USSR would have folded during the German invasion. He, through propaganda and brainwashing, made himself a symbol of Russia...
Soldiers jumped on machine gun nests with the words "For Stalin", tanks had "For Stalin" painted on the side of their turrets.
He made an idol out of himself but russians needed an idol/inspiration to accomplish things in 10 years that took other countries 80 years...
Tough times require tough/brutal leaders. Look at US history: A. Lincoln, hardly a white bunny with a fuzzy tail... He was behind the blodiest conflict in the US history but without him there would be no US as we know it...
My point is that everything is relative... I am seeing Stalin as a person who made USSR into the superpower and you are seeing him as murderous dictator, but what you fail to understand, because you don't get russian mentality, without Stalin Russia would still be in the 19th century...
What about Alexander Makedonskij, Julius Ceasar, Chenghiz Khan, Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, what do you think about all of them?
All of them are neck deep in blood of their own countryman but they are viewed and regarded as the Great leaders of their time...

[Sergei]

I feel sorry for Abdulkhalik Kurbanov and Mukhtar Suleimanov....

You see they were brave muslim Dagestani border guards who don't share the wahabism theory of some Chechen bandits. Rest in peace.

[OldRecon]

[All of them are valid points except if not for him there would be no Russia.
What people in the west don't realise that without him, chances are, USSR would have folded during the German invasion. ...

The industrial base necessary for Soviet Unions successfull resistance of the German invasion, was undoubtedly developed during Stalins reign in the late 1920's and throughout the 1930's. And that indeed is his prime achievement in my eyes.
But the price in lives was quite heavy.
Also some of the policies instituted during Stalin's reign were to have far reaching consequences post WW and post Stalin. Especially with regards to the agricultural sector, who still suffer from post effects of the colectivisation campaign of the 1930's to such a degree Soviet Union became dependent on grain imports from the "arch enemy across the pond". Also some areas of science like cybernetics (even though there are no lack of brilliant matematicians in the former Soviet republics) and genetics suffered to such a degree from Stalins attitude (undobtedly influenced by his crony Lysenko) that it became and upphill struggle for Soviet scientists to catch up form many year afterwards.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Stalinstarved over 10 million ethnic Ukranians to death...
They werent really a political enemy, just a bunch of farmers.

[Russian Texan]

genetics suffered to such a degree from Stalins attitude (undobtedly influenced by his crony Lysenko)
So if it was Lysenko's idea, what does Stalin have to do with it?
Lysenko simply resolved his personal grudges through Stalin's hands.
Same thing regarding starvation in Ukraine.

USSR's government didn't just consist of Stalin, there were others behind the scenes who advised/ill-advised him on issues and policies.
Do you think that Stalin even knew what cybernetics of genes were?
No, but others did and because of personal reasons told him lies about those and other sciences.

Do you think that Stalin personaly reviewed cases of each executed person?
He just said that we are surrounded by enemies, which was quite true, just read what Churchill had to say about bolsheviks.
If you want to understand what was happening in USSR during those times, look at Mccarthyism - in a nutshell it is no different.

Stalin did not send all those people to Siberia, russians did.
Let's say you are my neighbor and I don't like you for whatever reason: you beat me up, you have a nicer house and I am jealous, you are better looking, etc. Back in those days, I would simply go to the local police station, write a report about you being a spie, suspicious individual, plotting against a government, etc. Now, police/national security guys just got a memo about internal/external enemies... More people they have arrested - faster they advanced through ranks and more perks of the system they got to enjoy...
To put it simply, people on location just gut overzealous.

Stalin wasn't a genius, he was a ruthless, paranoid man who was good at manipulating people but at the same time, quite often, he was pushed in the desired direction by those close to him. And he didn't mind it, as long as they stayed behind the scenes but once their influence became to obviuos, their voice too loud or they became too popular, he simply got rid of them. It is very similar to the corporate world: some bosses are encouraging bright employees to grow and some create obstacles because of the fear that they might challenge/replace current boss. Stalin didn't like competition...

[Groove]

This dead guy - was he called some kind like "the tractor driver" (sorry i dont know the name in russian language ?

Traktorista ? If it was this MF then big props to russia - otherway i congratulate russia too on killing this Fundamentalic POS !

Groove

[Kingpin]

This dead guy - was he called some kind like "the tractor driver" (sorry i dont know the name in russian language ?

Traktorista ? If it was this MF then big props to russia - otherway i congratulate russia too on killing this Fundamentalic POS !

Groove

No.
"Traktorist" in prison already for several years.

Comment for others: "Traktorist" was one small warlords during 1st Chechen war. But he tortured and killed many Russian soldiers his people captured or bought from other warlords. 4 cases was proven in court and now he's in prison. Don't remember live sentence it was or not.

Gelayev is other one. I posted many pics and couple of videos of Komsomolskoye storming in 2000, also from action in Ingushetiya borders with Chechnya in 2002 and also from Dagestan action this years. This is three cases when Gelayev people fought Russian army. In last case almost all of his people was killed or captured. This can explain why he was alone while encountered border guards.

[GazB]

Can't really include Stalin in a list of the worst three Russians as he was from Goergia...

Also if there were no five year plans there would be no T-34s.

More than that very few people in Russia would be able to build/use/fix mechanised vehicles. Lend Lease would be pointless as sending them Shermans would be pointless if they couldn't fix or drive them... they wouldn't have supply lines for fuel and spare parts etc etc.

The Tsar entered WWI so poorly prepared whole units were sent into combat unarmed and told to pick up a weapon from the battlefield...

Hardly the sort of force to fight WWII with.

[ariweiner]

A member of the General Staff of the ChRI Armed Forces contacted the Chechenpress news agency and confirmed in a special statement that General Hamzat Gelayev has died as a martyr (Insha-Allah!) in an unequal battle with Russian occupiers. The statement says:

"The Chechen people and the Resistance Forces have suffered a heavy loss. In an unequal battle with the Russian occupiers, General of the ChRI Armed Forces Hamzat Gelayev has died as a martyr (Insha-Allah). [Passage in Chechen].

The command of the ChRI AF hasn't yet completed its investigation of the circumstances of the loss of Hamzat Gelayev, but we can state with confidence already today that the majority of the reports on this issue from the Russian media and members of the special services don't correspond to reality. Treachery was involved, the culprits are known and will not escape the sure retribution by the Chechen troops. This is all we can say so far.

The Chechen people has lost and continues to lose many of its glorious heroes. One of them was Hamzat Gelayev. But the place of the killed is taken by new commanders, new heroes. The Chechen Resistance doesn't depend on one name or the other, however hated these names have been for the enemy, because it isn't individual heroes who are fighting against the inhuman and evil Russian aggressors, but the entire Chechen nation, through the hands of its best sons and daughters.

May Allah the Most High help us on His straight path!

Allahu Akbar!

Chechenpress
www.chechenpress.info

[Groove]

Just do us all a favour and stop this freakin`


Allahu Akbar!


Everybody can have own opinion for me but i cant see / hear / read this Allah stuff anymore.

Do you see any1 here writing "Jesus Is Great or God Is Great" here ?

Thx for your cooperating.

Greetings

Groove

[Kilgor]

All of them are valid points except if not for him there would be no Russia.
What people in the west don't realise that without him, chances are, USSR would have folded during the German invasion. ...

I think you should really read up more about the great purge and the early states of the GPW.

It is absurd to say stalin won the war for the USSR.
His purges of the Red Army, and ignorance to realise the current threat of Hilter cost millions of lives. There is no doubt that if stalin actually listened to intelligence and prepared the Red Army that the Russian people people would not have suffered under the Nazi advancement. He and he alone was responsible for the terrible defeats in the early states of the GPW. Its also to be noted that he under the stupid delusion that Hilter would honor the Von Ribbentrop pact.

Stalin didnt win the war, he nearly lost it. His generals did, and the suffering and misery of millions of soviets to put up with such pain.

[Undo]

we can state with confidence already today that the majority of the reports on this issue from the Russian media and members of the special services don't correspond to reality.

This coming from a site containing some of the greatest works of fiction in recent years. Hahahahahaha. That's rich. What the hell does kavkazcenter know about "reality"?

[Argo AdAm]

I have tried to explain you guys so many times but you seem never to get it - democracy is not a Russian way to go, they saw it and didn't like it...
When did Russians see a real democracy in their homeland in real life? I mean not "pseudo-democracy" and not in tv.


Russians need a Czar: strong charismatic leader in charge, that is why they like Putin so much - he is the one....
I know a perfect candidate for Czar who would be loved in Russia - it's Darth Vader ;) He's very charismatic, strongly believes in his powerful empire, in his version of truth, in his version of justice, in his version of law and... in fact he doesn't care about his people.

http://www.gwiezdne-wojny.pl/grafika/e6/roj47.jpeg

or maybe The Great Emperor
http://www.gwiezdne-wojny.pl/grafika/e6/roj54.jpeg

[mack pl]

RT-if Russians dont like democracy, they must be a slave nation :( I hope you are wrong ;) Regards :) BTW good post Argo :)

[Russian Texan]

I think you should really read up more about the great purge and the early states of the GPW.
I think you should read up on what Russia was during Nicolas II and what it became during Stalin.

It is absurd to say stalin won the war for the USSR.
Where did I say that?

His purges of the Red Army, and ignorance to realise the current threat of Hilter cost millions of lives. There is no doubt that if stalin actually listened to intelligence and prepared the Red Army that the Russian people people would not have suffered under the Nazi advancement. He and he alone was responsible for the terrible defeats in the early states of the GPW.
Absolutely agree.

Its also to be noted that he under the stupid delusion that Hilter would honor the Von Ribbentrop pact.
Von Ribbentrop pact was Stalins idea of buing time and it worked.
He knew that Russia and Germany were on a collision course and needed time to prepare equipment wise and recover from purges.

Stalin didnt win the war, he nearly lost it.
Yes
His generals did,
No. My granfather and other common soviet people did.

[Russian Texan]

When did Russians see a real democracy in their homeland in real life?
Never, but can you name a country that did? ;)

[I know a perfect candidate for Czar who would be loved in Russia - it's Darth Vader ;) He's very charismatic,
You have a very weird charisma definition...
strongly believes in his powerful empire, in his version of truth, in his version of justice, in his version of law and... in fact he doesn't care about his people.
But does he practice martial arts? ;)

http://www.gwiezdne-wojny.pl/grafika/e6/roj47.jpeg

or maybe The Great Emperor
http://www.gwiezdne-wojny.pl/grafika/e6/roj54.jpeg
So what's wrong with the Empire? I mean just look at their technology. It is quite obvious that the system works :)

[Russian Texan]

RT-if Russians dont like democracy, they must be a slave nation

Every nations people are slaves of those who rules them ;)
But there are some nations who are always someones "bitch"...

Btw, speaking of slave mentality and being ruled by someone else: how come Poland never rebelled against USSR? I mean - Chechs at least did put up a fight... ;)

[DPGLAW]

As much as I dislike Russia for their Iraq policy (screw with the US) or their people for protesting the war like it was such a big deal; But politics aside, I have to say CONGRATULATTIONS on killing a top chechyn terrorist or warcriminal, whatever term you want to use. I am gld that they got him as the chechyns are not the freedom fighters they say they are, they are a terrorist group and should be treated as such. they attack civilians, set off bombs in public, take hostages, kidnap people,, rape, etc... I would have to say they deserve to be killed as a whole (the terrorists & their supporters). This is in my opinion, akin to our (the US) war on terror against Al Qaeda so I can sympathize with the Russians...kill some mroe of them please, good job

[Kilgor]

I think you should really read up more about the great purge and the early states of the GPW.
I think you should read up on what Russia was during Nicolas II and what it became during Stalin.

You seem to idolise this man, who you think made the USSR so great, but do not realise how much he cost it.

It is absurd to say stalin won the war for the USSR.
Where did I say that?

"What people in the west don't realise that without him, chances are, USSR would have folded during the German invasion. "
With someone at least who listened to his generals, the Nazi's certainly would have gotten as far as they did. With Stalin in power, the USSR nearly did fold !


His purges of the Red Army, and ignorance to realise the current threat of Hilter cost millions of lives. There is no doubt that if stalin actually listened to intelligence and prepared the Red Army that the Russian people people would not have suffered under the Nazi advancement. He and he alone was responsible for the terrible defeats in the early states of the GPW.
Absolutely agree.

Surely, this would make him a bad leader in your eyes ?
Totally military incompetance.


Its also to be noted that he under the stupid delusion that Hilter would honor the Von Ribbentrop pact.
Von Ribbentrop pact was Stalins idea of buing time and it worked.

Did it ?
The Red Army was still woefully ill prepared in the early years, and it nearly cost the war !

He knew that Russia and Germany were on a collision course and needed time to prepare equipment wise and recover from purges.

Agree there.

Stalin didnt win the war, he nearly lost it.
Yes
His generals did,
No. My granfather and other common soviet people did.

And they paid a heavy heavy price for his foolishness.



You seem to idolise Lenin too ?
what do you think of stalins properganda that made him seem like lenin's right hand man ?

The first time stalin was ever seen in public with lenin was at his funeral !

[Russian Texan]

You seem to idolise Lenin too ?
what do you think of stalins properganda that made him seem like lenin's right hand man ?

The first time stalin was ever seen in public with lenin was at his funeral !

Have you ever heard of such things as humour, sarcasm, irony, joke.....?

"Idolizing" is what teenagers do to pop stars, I am not a teenager and I don't care about pop music.
I do not "idolize", I respect and I also give credit where credit is due.

[Kilgor]

well.. i dont see any "credit due" for a man who introduce a system of government that would claim over 100 million lives last century.
But whatever floats your boat I guess
:|

[wholagun]

Btw, speaking of slave mentality and being ruled by someone else: how come Poland never rebelled against USSR? I mean - Chechs at least did put up a fight...


There were numerous times we went against Soviet imposed communistm but im alittle shady on that part of the history so Ill let the other Poles in Poland fill in the details about our efforts at trying to throw off the yoke you put on us.

Czechs suffered large losses Red army was too big. We actually care about the lives of our citizens unlike some, we knew that anything drastic would not work and would only lead to blood shed of many Poles.

BTW, remeber solidarity, we were the first spark that brought your glorious empire down. After solidarity you had E Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia etc.

[Russian Texan]

well.. i dont see any "credit due" for a man who introduce a system of government that would claim over 100 million lives last century.
But whatever floats your boat I guess
:|

100 million, WOW... could you please break down the number?

Ok, lets remove Lenin and later Stalin from the picture, what would be Russia without influence of those people?
You can make any statements, presumtions and guesses as long as you base them on historical facts.

[Kilgor]

|


100 million, WOW... could you please break down the number?

The Black Book on Communism

In France, an 846-page academic study compiled by six distinguished historians has become a runaway best-seller with 70,000 copies purchased in four weeks and a second printing underway. Not available in the U.S at this time, the book is titled Le Livre Noir du Communism (The Black Book on Communism) and it has been the subject of heated exchange in the French Parliament. In addition, articles about it have appeared in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the International Herald Tribune and Commentary monthly for January 1998.

Published on Nov. 8, 1997 - the 80th anniversary of the start of the Russian Revolution - one of its authors, Stephane Courtois of the National Center for Scientific Research, is a self-proclaimed leftist and former Maoist. In his introduction he insists that we can no longer distinguish any conventional difference between Communism and Nazism. As Tony Judt, director of the Remarque Institute at New York University, points out, Courtois notes "those very features of Nazism that we find most repellent have now been proved endemic to Communism from its inception ... mass crimes, systematic crimes, crimes against humanity marked both systems in equal measure."

"The archives and numerous witnesses confirm," says Courtois, "that terror was from the outset a basic feature of modern Communism," where concentration camps, forced labor and terror were elevated to a system of government. Mass murders were not the accidental byproduct of misguided policies but the outcome of willful, sometimes genocidal calculation and intent, adds Tony Judt.

Alain Besancon, the eminent French historian, made a similar point in his inaugural lecture to the French Academy (text appearing in the December 1997 issue of Commentaire). Speaking of The Black Book on Communism, Besancon asked "how is it that, today, the two systems are treated so unequally in historical memory, to the point where one of them, Soviet Communism, though a still-recent presence on the world scene, has already been all but forgotten?"

Where Nazism's crimes affected 25 million, Communist regimes have committed crimes affecting 100 million. Described as the first global balance sheet on Communism, here is how The Black Book of Communism breaks down that figure:

China: 72 million, Soviet Union 20 million, Cambodia 2.3 million, North Korea 2 million, Africa 1.7 million, Afghanistan 1.5 million, Vietnam 1 million, Eastern Europe 1 million, Latin America 150,000.

All these millions of Communism's victims were fathers and mothers, aunts and uncles, grandparents, children or other special loved-ones. Every death was a tragedy, not a statistic. Yet, unlike the world's proper remembrance of the victims of Nazism, little is said today about the fate of Communism's victims.

As Tony Judt comments: "From the point of view of the exiled, humiliated, tortured, maimed or murdered victims, it's all the same. in the sorry story of our century, Communism and Nazism are, and always were, morally indistinguishable. That lesson alone took too long to learn, and it justifies a complete recasting and rewriting of the history of our times."


http://www.mindszenty.org/report/1998/feb98/feb98.html

[mack pl]

RT wrote-

Every nations people are slaves of those who rules them ;)
But there are some nations who are always someones "bitch"...

Btw, speaking of slave mentality and being ruled by someone else: how come Poland never rebelled against USSR? I mean - Chechs at least did put up a fight... ;) .............We rebelled few times against Russia in XIX century,so we arent bitch nation who likes be ruled by some other state.BTW we cannot rebelled against USSR because we have our comunist government and we could rebelled only against them(and we did in 56,70 for example).About Czechs i could said only that,they never rebelled against USSR.In 1968 Czech army did nothing against USSR(and Poland).Hungary rebelled in 1956,but they arent Czechs.BTW in 1980 it was very close to soviet intervention in Poland.But gen.Jaruzelski started action against democratic oposition in Poland,and USSR dont attack Poland.If USSR did that it could be real war.Not all polish army units will be happy to seen soviet units in action against polish ppl.It could be the end of polish comunist gov.Well, history isnt simple,especially Polish history ;) So, i hope you never come to Poland again,because we like Russians,but not the Russian army ;) Regards :)

[Russian Texan]

Kilgor, please do not use general statements from a biased sources as a proof to your argument.
You have said "100 million lives", please break down the number by time and location.
In fact , I think it would be quite interesting to see how other forms of government did: would you please provide a "body count" for monarchy, democracy, etc. - let's try to stay fair & balanced...

Mack pl,
almost doesn't count ;)
You have mentioned "slave mentality" and I have brought up Poland that gave in without a fight.

Now let's look at Russia in the 20th century.
Twice it radically changed its course during 20th century.
Fisrt they were fed up with czarism, said screw it and took up arms.
Then they became fed up with communism, said screw it and rebelled.

If Polish people are so freedom loving, how come they didn't rebell against oppressive USSR regime? Where was their freedom loving spirit?
Americans had a slogan:"Better dead than red" and I am sure they would stand by it. What about polish people, what is there slogan?
Spartans were also outnumbered but they fought....

It is easy to be brave after the fight(Cold War), but what did you do during it?
Polish people allowed themselves to be governed by another country, simple like that.

Here is some pictures from a country that had guts to stand up for itself
"Prague Spring", Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia 1968.
http://img.radio.cz/pictures/historie/srpen682.jpg
http://img.radio.cz/pictures/historie/srpen68_cro.jpg
http://img.radio.cz/pictures/historie/srpen68_vaclavak.jpg
http://img.radio.cz/pictures/ctk0308/srpen681.jpg

[wholagun]

Why is it hard for you too understand that our country would've got razed to the ground by your glorious red army :roll: . If we would fight what good would that do, except lead to more pain and suffering then uder communist rule. We picked the lesser of the two evils.
We left communism first and with our buildings still standing. Had we put up a fight, Warsaw would be like Grozny now.

[Russian Texan]

Why is it hard for you too understand that our country would've got razed to the ground by your glorious red army :roll: . If we would fight what good would that do, except lead to more pain and suffering then uder communist rule. We picked the lesser of the two evils.
We left communism first and with our buildings still standing. Had we put up a fight, Warsaw would be like Grozny now.

I absolutely agree with you, but one of your fellow-countryman brought up the issue of the "slave mentality", that is how the discussion veered off...

My point is: if Polish are such brave and freedom loving nation, why did they put up with USSR?
Chzechs didn't just give in without a fight, neither did Afghans...

[perdurabo]

Why is it hard for you too understand that our country would've got razed to the ground by your glorious red army :roll: . If we would fight what good would that do, except lead to more pain and suffering then uder communist rule. We picked the lesser of the two evils.
We left communism first and with our buildings still standing. Had we put up a fight, Warsaw would be like Grozny now.

I absolutely agree with you, but one of your fellow-countryman brought up the issue of the "slave mentality", that is how the discussion veered off...

My point is: if Polish are such brave and freedom loving nation, why did they put up with USSR?
Chzechs didn't just give in without a fight, neither did Afghans...
Lol R-T Poland wasn't part of USSR so we dcouldn't rebeled aginst them but we had commies and we did rebbeled from the bigining first afther WAR AK members created WiN (Wolność i Niepodległość -Freedom and Independence) and there was a quite big civil war at the end of 40 but commies had russian help and WiN had no help from west so they lost and lots of them where killed then in 50, 70 and 80
put in google.com Solidarność (Solidarity) few times there was tanks on streets...

[Russian Texan]

Czechoslovakia and Afganistan weren't part of the USSR either...

The historic fact is that Poland swallowed it...

[perdurabo]

Czechoslovakia and Afganistan weren't part of the USSR either...

The historic fact is that Poland swallowed it...
the historic fact is that we kicked your ass in 1920 and you sucked in XVII cent :)
again use google and straighten your knowledge...
BTW don't attack us Poland is too small we don't have enough land to dig graves for your divisions ;-)

[Russian Texan]

you sucked in XVII cent :)


rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
Oh my God :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good memory..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mack pl]

I dont mentioned slavic mentality, but you did ;) BTW we rebelled few times against russian,so we could be brave,if we must.You are still talking about Czechs,well,the people in czechoslovakia fight,its true.But it wasnt real rebell,like in Hungary.Poles fight like Czechs against our comunist gov. few times(56,70).I said before,if USSR will sent troops to Poland against ours democratic oposition(Solidarnosc) we could rebelled.But this word-rebell-is not correct i think.because you could rebelled against army who occupied your state.If i remember,Red Army dont ocupied Poland.In my opinion Czech ppl fight only because USSR attack them(Poland too).So,they must do something.I guess polish ppl do somethimg like that too ,if you attack us.But ofcourse talking about civil citizens,not ours army(Czech and Polish).So, i think we love freedom(we always love) and you cannot said we dont because we dont rebelled against USSR.Unfortunately you dont speak polish, my english isnt good,and i have some problem to said what i think :( Regards :)

[wholagun]

I don't know excat number of how many Poles died in uprisings against our communist governmnet, it was not 100 000 as in Czechoslovakia.

There was one in the 50s, another in 70s and then in the 80s there were alot.

In the 80s there was even martial law, martial law was imposed by our own governmnet because the government didn't want Russia troops to come to Poland because that could have led to what happened in Czechoslovakia only 10 times worse. General Jaruselski called Moscow and said that he would handel it, and he did he emposed martial law. When the west found it about the martial law the US and other Western European states emposed economic sactions on USSR and Polish government for martial law. Did you know that Brezniev had plans during the revolts to invade poland in 3 days from all sides - E Germany, South from Czechoslovakia and W from USSR.

Its not that we swallowed communism its that our government clamped down on us not Russian troops.

Stalin famously said that imposing communism to Poland was like
putting a saddle on a cow ;) - meaning we wouldn't take it well.

[Russian Texan]

I dont mentioned slavic mentality, but you did ;)

Are you sure?
RT-if Russians dont like democracy, they must be a slave nation

If i remember,Red Army dont ocupied Poland.
Nope, they were just several divisions stationed there :roll:


In my opinion Czech ppl fight only because USSR attack them
What? :cantbeli:

Czechs stood up because they wanted to be in Charge of their country and not Moscow, naturally moscow had a different opinion.

So,they must do something.I guess polish ppl do somethimg like that too ,if you attack us.
You have had thousands of soviet troops station in your country and Moscow's approval for anything significant, how much more humiliating it could get?

So, i think we love freedom(we always love) and you cannot said we dont because we dont rebelled against USSR.
Oh, I am not saying you don't, I am just saying that you didn't do anything when it was taken away...

[Russian Texan]

Its not that we swallowed communism its that our government clamped down on us not Russian troops.

So how was it different from Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Afganistan?

Stalin famously said that imposing communism to Poland was like
putting a saddle on a cow ;) - meaning we wouldn't take it well.
Yeah, saddles are not meant for cows, they are ment for freedom loving horses - the ones that need to be tamed. Cows can be controlled and milked without a "saddle" ;)

[wholagun]

Sure a cow can be milked but horse can be worked to death in the field.
Wait are you saying that Russia is a real democracy right now? I hope your not, cause Russia is not a true democracy at this point in time.

I don't wanna agrue any more with you, niether side will give way on thier view point so we'll have to agree to disagree

[mack pl]

I dont mentioned slavic mentality, but you did ;)

Are you sure?
RT-if Russians dont like democracy, they must be a slave nation
OK ;) It was sarcasm :)
If i remember,Red Army dont ocupied Poland.
Nope, they were just several divisions stationed there :roll:

Yeah,you have 2 divisions.But we are in warsaw Pact(so they are our allies-buahahaha)
In my opinion Czech ppl fight only because USSR attack them
What? :cantbeli:
I said my english is **** :( I mean-Czech ppl was very angry(lol) at you because you attack them.But like i said only civil ppl done something against you.Well,in polish i could better said what i mean :(
Czechs stood up because they wanted to be in Charge of their country and not Moscow, naturally moscow had a different opinion.

So,they must do something.I guess polish ppl do somethimg like that too ,if you attack us.
You have had thousands of soviet troops station in your country and Moscow's approval for anything significant, how much more humiliating it could get?
:| I must check my vocabulary-i dont understud :(
So, i think we love freedom(we always love) and you cannot said we dont because we dont rebelled against USSR.
Oh, I am not saying you don't, I am just saying that you didn't do anything when it was taken away... We do something, but not against you.Only against ours comunist gov.

[Russian Texan]

Wait are you saying that Russia is a real democracy right now?
Where from did you get that impression?

I don't wanna agrue any more with you,
What's to argue about?

niether side will give way on thier view point so we'll have to agree to disagree
It is not my view, it is a historical fact that Poland did not resist to the Soviet rule unlike some other countries.

[Russian Texan]

To mack pl

Ok, from your previous post it is pretty clear that we are having communication problem due to the language barrier, so lets just drop it.

[mack pl]

Yeah :|

[wholagun]

Where did I get that idea from

Freedome House Oganization. - its the organization that sets the standards for what constitues a democracy and what and what doesn't. They set out criteria for the various levels of democracy, the problem in Russia is the lack of independent media, independent media is very important to democracy and is one of the key criteria.

Click on this and read about Russia, all you gotta do is click the link scroll down to Russia and have a read.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/nattransit.htm

[Russian Texan]

Where did I get that idea from

Freedome House Oganization. - its the organization that sets the standards for what constitues a democracy and what and what doesn't. They set out criteria for the various levels of democracy, the problem in Russia is the lack of independent media, independent media is very important to democracy and is one of the key criteria.

Click on this and read about Russia, all you gotta do is click the link scroll down to Russia and have a read.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/nattransit.htm

You didn't get my question, where did I claim Russia to be a democracy?

[wholagun]

well I asked


Wait are you saying that Russia is a real democracy right now?

I wasn't sure you were saying Russia is a democracy and is more free then Poland and is likes being more free, that is why I asked to which you responded



Where from did you get that impression?

to which I explained and gave you a link to read up on


Where did I get that idea from

Freedome House Oganization. - its the organization that sets the standards for what constitues a democracy and what and what doesn't. They set out criteria for the various levels of democracy, the problem in Russia is the lack of independent media, independent media is very important to democracy and is one of the key criteria.

Click on this and read about Russia, all you gotta do is click the link scroll down to Russia and have a read.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/nattransit.htm

and now you wrote

where did I claim Russia to be a democracy?

So this is a mess and is goen no where, I think we should just drop it.

[Russian Texan]

Wholagun, you see things that are not there :)
To sum it up - Russia never was a true democracy and never will be, simple like that.

[Kilgor]

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.4.GIF

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.TAB1.1.GIF

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.FIG1.8.GIF

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.6.GIF

Only a fool would defend communism.

[Groove]

Will this endless story ever end ?

Russia > all !

Yes im from Poland and you could crush us and any other state in the world just if the russians would like. Can we stop this neverending flame - wars ?

Everybody knows that russia is great - we all can see it on TVs around the world.

Sorry but this Poland-Russia "Tensions" ruins slowly this fine Forum.

*sigh*

Groove

[wholagun]

Will this endless story ever end ?

Russia > all !

Yes im from Poland and you could crush us and any other state in the world just if the russians would like. Can we stop this neverending flame - wars ?

Everybody knows that russia is great - we all can see it on TVs around the world.

Sorry but this Poland-Russia "Tensions" ruins slowly this fine Forum.

*sigh*

Groove

First off, what your from Poland, I didn't know that
secondly, this discussion has been relativly clean, there wasn't as much, if any mug slug back and forth this time.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

It is not my view, it is a historical fact that Poland did not resist to the Soviet rule unlike some other countries.

Yeah, Solidarity was a Hungarian movement, and Walesa come from Yugoslavia.

Poland was the first country that ended with communism. In 1989.

[Groove]

Im from South-East Poland living outside Poland.

[Argo AdAm]

It is not my view, it is a historical fact that Poland did not resist to the Soviet rule unlike some other countries.
In June, 1956, in Polish city Poznań 120,000 protestors demanded “bread, truth and freedom,” and 76 are killed in street fighting.

In December 1970 in Gdańsk the police (militia) and army killed 44 protesting shipyard workers.

In 1980 begun "Solidarity" and in 1981 Polish Prime Ministre declared martial law and few years later... you know

The historical fact is that Soviet generals never trusted too much in Polish army because they knew they haven't full control over it.
This is very interesting:

"In June 1956, major failures of communist state economic policy brought a large-scale uprising of workers in Poznan demanding "bread and freedom." Polish troops refused to fire on the workers, heralding a political upheaval that ended the Stalinist era in Poland. The uprisings of 1956 greatly alarmed the Soviet Union and ultimately reduced Soviet control over the Polish military and internal security agencies. Poland's Security Service (Sluzba Bezpieczenstwa--SB), which had crushed the Pozna workers ruthlessly, was revamped in 1956. The widely unpopular Rokossovskii and thirty-two Soviet generals were recalled to the Soviet Union in spite of intense Soviet diplomatic pressure. At this critical point, Polish units went on alert in response to a massing of Soviet troops and tanks on the eastern border. Incoming party chief Wladyslaw Gomulka skillfully negotiated Poland's position with the Soviets; backed by Poland's demonstrated willingness to defend itself, Gomulka was able to avert an invasion. Just two weeks later, in October 1956, Soviet tanks would roll into Hungary. The Moscow Declaration and the Treaty of December 17, 1956 then stipulated the sovereignty of the Polish communist elite over the Polish military and established limitations on the stationing and maneuver of Soviet forces in Poland. http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guide-study/poland/poland240.html "

[GazB]

Freedome House Oganization. - its the organization that sets the standards for what constitues a democracy and what and what doesn't. They set out criteria for the various levels of democracy, the problem in Russia is the lack of independent media, independent media is very important to democracy and is one of the key criteria.


That is soooo funny. A bit like a few western countries getting together and putting together the declaration of universal human rights. They did so without consulting china, india... or anyone in the eastern (soviet) block... that is only 1/3rd of the worlds population excluded...

Would be interested to know who voted in this Organisation to do the job it does?

According to its own mission statement:

"Founded over sixty years ago by Eleanor Roosevelt, Wendell Willkie, and other Americans concerned with the mounting threats to peace and democracy, Freedom House has been a vigorous proponent of democratic values and a steadfast opponent of dictatorships of the far left and the far right. "

I guess America must be the expert on democracy...


Only a fool would defend communism.

How many have died because of religion? What fool would defend any religion? ...many it seems.


the problem in Russia is the lack of independent media, independent media is very important to democracy and is one of the key criteria.


I have never seen Russian media programs but doubt they could be more biased than the Discovery Channel or CNN. Just because a media group is not state controlled does not make it unbiased...

[Argo AdAm]

Freedome House Oganization. - its the organization that sets the standards for what constitues a democracy and what and what doesn't. They set out criteria for the various levels of democracy, the problem in Russia is the lack of independent media, independent media is very important to democracy and is one of the key criteria.


That is soooo funny. A bit like a few western countries getting together and putting together the declaration of universal human rights. They did so without consulting china, india... or anyone in the eastern (soviet) block... that is only 1/3rd of the worlds population excluded...
So what? Would you consult something about colours with colour-blind persons...?



the problem in Russia is the lack of independent media, independent media is very important to democracy and is one of the key criteria.
I have never seen Russian media programs but doubt they could be more biased than the Discovery Channel or CNN. Just because a media group is not state controlled does not make it unbiased...
Before you compare media situation in Russia and any other western country I suggest you read anything from
- CPJ (The Committee to Protect
Journalists) raport about media in Russia
http://www.cpj.org/attacks00/europe00/Russia.html

- Human Rights & Freedom of Speech in Russia (http://www.slavweb.com/eng/Russia/hright-e0.html)

[Argo AdAm]

Only a fool would defend communism.
Not fool, but person who knows nothing about how communism looks like in reality...

[Kingpin]

Only a fool would defend communism.
Not fool, but person who knows nothing about how communism looks like in reality...

I know how it looks like in reality. I would defend it.

[wholagun]

Well Freedome House is the organization thats accepted by all and it sends observers in elections.

You do need an organization that determines what a democracy is. I mean Iraq held elections with so called opposition parities was Iraq a democracy? I don't care if you aggree with what they have to say, but fact of the matter is they set determine what is and what isn't and its accepted by scholars.

Sure all media is biased but the difference is that CNN is free of poliitcal wrangeling and control. CNN can say what it wants to say a controled media cannot. CNN can call Bush an A Hole and still be on air the next day, ppl would be pissed but there is nothing the government can do about it.

[Elmo]

I know how it looks like in reality.

I'd say you don't. I take you've lived in the Soviet Union?

Soviet Union never reached communism. It was on its way there. There was a promise of communism in the future. The totalitarian system which Soviet Union was, might have been called communist by the demagogues, but it definately wasn't.

The first phase in building a communist society was dictatorship, as Lenin wrote. And that's where it got stuck.

[GazB]

So what? Would you consult something about colours with colour-blind persons...?

Ahh, so India, with an elected government, knows nothing about democracy. Very interesting.

I think a colour blind person would appreciate colour more than most people... BTW colour blind people just can't percieve a few colours... it is not as if they can't see any colour at all and see in black and white. By that definition and American is colour blind as is a Brit. They both have very different styles of democratic government and probably don't understand each others democracy as well as their own.


Before you compare media situation in Russia and any other western country I suggest you read anything from

Have you ever watched American TV? I have seen a bit and it seems very self focused. Any topic on a documentary on the Discovery channel is "the best". At first I though this was an American bias, but then I saw them do a program on a british item that was "the best". Of course I had already seen another program on the American equvelent and that was the best too. They do no research!!!


Well Freedome House is the organization thats accepted by all and it sends observers in elections.

Hmmm, accepted by all? Then why are we disagreeing if I accept them?


You do need an organization that determines what a democracy is.

Why? The US seems to define democracy as anyone who does as they are told or anyone that is currently useful. ie Saddam was useful for a time to counter the evil Iranians. The Chinese were useful to counter the evil commie russians... plus they have lots of consumers... ironic that the US has a better economic relationship with communist China than it does for a Russia that has tried to change to democracy and actually been holding real elections.


I mean Iraq held elections with so called opposition parities was Iraq a democracy?

Communist systems have elections amongst the communist party officials... is communism democratic?


I don't care if you aggree with what they have to say, but fact of the matter is they set determine what is and what isn't and its accepted by scholars.


It is most likely accepted only by those who agree with its findings, and that is all.


Sure all media is biased but the difference is that CNN is free of poliitcal wrangeling and control.

So no one at CNN that holds power has any political beliefs at all... how do you know?


CNN can say what it wants to say a controled media cannot. CNN can call Bush an A Hole and still be on air the next day, ppl would be pissed but there is nothing the government can do about it.


And how often does it do this? How often does it criticise American foreign policy?

[Kilgor]

Only a fool would defend communism.
Not fool, but person who knows nothing about how communism looks like in reality...

I know how it looks like in reality. I would defend it.

So you would defend its deathtoll ?

[Kilgor]

[quote]

And how often does it do this? How often does it criticise American foreign policy?

Happens all the time !!!!

do you think someone like Noam chomsky, Micheal Moore, or many hollywood tendy lefts would be allowed to speak freely in a communist state ????! They would be imprisioned and sent to death.

Even most American Tv debates feature both sides to a debate on issues like foriegn policy !

Seriously dude.. stop kidding yourself

[martinexsquaddie]

well
seeing the old german inner border claymores and dogs to keep people in :(
the old warsaw pact had nothing to recomend it

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Only a fool would defend communism.
Not fool, but person who knows nothing about how communism looks like in reality...

I know how it looks like in reality. I would defend it.

If it was so good, why people from Eastern Bloc were escaping to Western countries?

[Kilgor]

of course there were many high profile defections to the west in the russian military ?

But how many westerners escaped to Russia ??

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

But how many westerners escaped to Russia ??

You know, the Berlin Wall was built to prevent western Berliners from escaping to DDR :D

[hist2004]

CIA Defector Edward Lee Howard was one.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[GazB]

do you think someone like Noam chomsky, Micheal Moore, or many hollywood tendy lefts would be allowed to speak freely in a communist state ????! They would be imprisioned and sent to death.

Yes, of course... Stalin is still in charge and Communism means Stalin.


If it was so good, why people from Eastern Bloc were escaping to Western countries?

And if the west is so wonderful why do people commit suicide?

After so long in isolation and economic blockade the Soviet Union was not a rich country financially. Many rats desert such ships... look at the large European migrations around the world. China's economy is going very well and I believe they don't hold elections.

[Kilgor]

And if the west is so wonderful why do people commit suicide?

.

Thats a pretty silly statement.

and people never got depressed and committed suicide in communist hell holes ?

Of course they did, but never had the free press to hear about such cases. Everything is "wonderful" in communist countries.
Just like in North Korea at the moment, state properganda makes out the country is a living paradise.

[Samed-ogly]

Only a fool would defend communism.
Not fool, but person who knows nothing about how communism looks like in reality...

;)
http://i.xanga.com/kornstar/MP3_downloading_communism.jpg