Waffen SS troops

[Canuck Farrier]

heres some ss trooper photos i came across!just click on the image for a bigger size!

[wehrwolf]

Nice- thank you. :)

[J_NL]

nice picsp-)

[Howitz]

looks like reenactors
cool pics.

[flakbtg500]

Hallo,
great reenactos group! nice photos!
what is its name and locations?

[parabellum]

bosnian muslim SS allies
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/hanjar-book.jpg
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/u-legion.jpghttp://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/mufti.jpg
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/muslimss.gif
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/muf-han.jpg
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/han-arm.jpg
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/handzar/han1.jpghttp://www.srpska-mreza.com/handzar/han14.jpg

[Kingswat]

becareful, someone might say you have a nazi fetish.


great pics though.

[parabellum]

just military stuff on a military forum...p-)

[Canuck Farrier]

The Fighting SS was quite a unit!The Sniper photo is not a reenactor it was taken during the Normandy Campaign hes apparently a memeber of the 12th ss.

[driver]

:roll: Some picture's are very difficult to sie if the are Waffen SS, the only unit in the hole of WOII who wore camoflage clothes.

[americanwolf]

:roll: Some picture's are very difficult to sie if the are Waffen SS, the only unit in the hole of WOII who wore camoflage clothes.

That is partially correct...

They were the only combat forces in the Euopean theater to were camo... Merrils marauders and some marine recon teams in the pacific wore camo when they were island hopping... and from what I read it was pretty effective.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

:roll: Some picture's are very difficult to sie if the are Waffen SS, the only unit in the hole of WOII who wore camoflage clothes.

what about paratroopers?both british and german

[Hullebullen]

what about paratroopers?both british and german

There was a yank unit who wore camo on the western front as well but I think they stopped wearing it because of the possibility of mistaken identity...

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

There was a yank unit who wore camo on the western front as well but I think they stopped wearing it because of the possibility of mistaken identity...

they wore it in normandy but it looked like the ss stuff and i think they had a few blue on blues

[Canuck Farrier]

what about paratroopers?both british and german

Ya i think the Germans had a camo jump smock and ive seen pictures of british and canadian paras wearing a camo jackets

[Macabi]

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/muf-han.jpg
That's the grand mufti of Jerusalem, he was their to confince them of only one thing......

[Atlantic Friend]

SS reenactors ? That's sick. Do they reenact burning villages and killing civilians, too ?

[Beckett]

o great here we go.:roll:

[Fliptape]

its all downhill from here =]

[flakbtg500]

Hallo,
the past year in Italy, has been made a show to live again of historical facts.
In the 1944 near city of Asti, many partisans operated. German Command decided to send an units for destroy partisans units.
During this anti-partigian operation Waffen SS units, make a concrete result but destroy a little town and they carried out the population.
I was, very good show!
best regards
flak
2930
2932
2931

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

its all downhill from here =]

im waiting for it.........

[oregongrunt]

Is that a real picture or reenactors?
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2908&d=1140366020

[nick_ua]

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/waffen_ss_007.jpg
A unit of the 15th Latvian SS Division marching in the city of Riga, summer 1943. Latvia contributed some 150,000 volunteers for the Waffen SS - the most of any other Germany ally.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/waffen_ss_006.jpg
Estonian volunteers in the German Luftwaffe receive decorations, 1943.

Sleeve patch of the Latvian SS
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/waffen_ss_005.jpg


Estonian "Estland" SS Division patch
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/images/estonia_1.jpg

A Latvian SS recruiting poster
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/images/latvia10.jpg

Latvian SS in action on the Eastern Front, 1943 (source: "The SS: Hitler's Instrument of Terror", by Gordon Williamson)
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/images/latvianss.jpg

Latvian SS in action on the Eastern Front, 1943 (source: "The SS: Hitler's Instrument of Terror", by Gordon Williamson)
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/images/latvianss1.jpg

Latvian SS commander Col. Kārlis Lobe
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/images/Pulkvedis_Lobe.jpg

Harald Nugiseks was a platoon leader in 1./Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 46 of the 20th Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr 1) and was one of the only Estonians ever to win the Knight's Cross (Ritterkreuz) - The Third Reich's highest award for valor - for his courageous actions during the battles for Narva. Note the Estonian collar tab patch and his rank of SS-Oberscharfьhrer. (source: "The SS: Hitler's Instrument of Terror", by Gordon Williamson)
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/images/Harald_Nugiseks.jpg

Patch of the Lithuanian Schutzmannschaft-Bataillonen - a paramilitary police force formed by the German Waffen-SS with logistical help of Geheime Staatspolizei (Gestapo).
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/lthuanian3_small.jpg

Latvian Butchers
http://gariga.boom.ru/02092003_h_cukurs_8.jpg
http://gariga.boom.ru/foto.report.ebr.arais.big___________._____.______.jpg


Estonia. aug 20 2004 . Monumnet to honor SS ahs been opened
http://sava4.strana.germany.ru/karaul.jpg
http://sava4.strana.germany.ru/kukriniksi.jpg
After Estonian goverment decided to close it this what happened to Russian Soldiers monument
http://sava4.strana.germany.ru/oskvernen.jpg

[Groove]

o great here we go.:roll:

i bet your family or people from your city or village werent butchered by SS or Waffen SS ? Always keep in mind what they did to the civilians which in their eyes even werent humans at all or humans 2nd class.

[CSAR]

Wow, I didn't know there were that many volunteers from Latvia. 150,000 men ... that has got to be a significant portion of all men fit for military service from a country of that size.

[Beckett]

i wont pretend to know what its like. im not saying they didnt do horrible horrible things. im just saying there reinactors for historical purposes.

[He219]

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/waffen_ss_006.jpg
Estonian volunteers in the German Luftwaffe receive decorations, 1943.
What does the Luftwaffe have to do with this thread?
:roll:

Latvian Butchers
As opposed to Soviet Butchers?
How is this contributing to the thread?


A three day ban for anybody else who starts to flame.

[Lt. James Anderson]

bosnian muslim SS allies
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/hanjar-book.jpg
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/u-legion.jpghttp://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/mufti.jpg
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/muslimss.gif
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/muf-han.jpg
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/han-arm.jpg
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/handzar/han1.jpghttp://www.srpska-mreza.com/handzar/han14.jpg
Along with Croatian "Kama" , the Bosnian "Handzar" was the worst unit of the Waffen SS.

[parabellum]

http://axis101.bizland.com/SSfrenchShield01.jpg
http://axis101.bizland.com/FrenchSSpic1.jpg
http://www.ina.fr/voir_revoir/guerre/photos/images/14_41-59.jpg

[Kitsune]

@Atlantic Friend:

SS reenactors ? That's sick. Do they reenact burning villages and killing civilians, too ?

That was uncalled for. Waffen SS were soldiers not butchers per se. And while it is true that these units did commit warcrimes, even with higher likelihood than the "normal" military since they were polititcal soldiers, there were also quite a few civilians they passed by and quite a few PoWs they took captive without massacring them. As a French one may be angry about Oradour and such, but in the end where is the true moral difference between such deeds and firebombing cities? Both were meant to terrorize the enemy into submission.
In the end it is not fair or just to condemn a soldier just because he was part of the Waffen SS organisation, without looking at the individual, as if the membership to that organisation alone would stamp him as a criminal or a soulless combat android.

[tenda]

really interesting pic's tnxs...p-)

[Cabbage]

Yeah...if you're going to flame...eff off. This is a very interesting thread and the Waffen SS is a unit which you don't find much info about, let alone pics.

Though the only thing I have against threads like these is that non one gives any background, cos you have the odd bod saying "I thought this was photos and video...blah blah".

I want to learn everything I can about this elite unit. So any history, facts etc. please contribute.

Magnificent pics by the way!

[Atlantic Friend]

@Atlantic Friend: that was uncalled for

No, I think that was totally called for. We are talking Nazi troops here. Not German troops, Nazi troops.

People can reenact Wehrmacht as much as they like, it doesn't bother me, even though Wehrmacht units or soldiers did commit some war crimes.

But the SS, Himmler's pet organization that was meant to embody the Third Reich's racial theories ? The SS, which encompassed such civilization highlights like the Gestapo, the SD, and the Totenkopf concentration and extermination camp administration ? Sorry, but no, no sympathy, even though one can rightfully underline that the Waffen-SS were not guarding Dachau. Their brothers-in-arms were, and that is disturbing enough for me.

Sorry if some members feel like I'm raining on their parade here, guys, but while I'm sure the Waffen-SS troops were one hell of a fighting unit, I find it hard to put aside little facts such as Oradour sur Glane or Lidice, or Krakow, and countless others.

As you said, Kit, the Waffen-SS were political soldiers, and I don't think we're doing anyone a favor by glorifying their militray prowess while at the same time conveniently forgetting which political future they had chosen to fight for.

This being said, I won't spoil anyone's fun anymore on this thread, so whoever wants to talk about it, feel free to PM me.

[Lt. James Anderson]

No, I think that was totally called for. We are talking Nazi troops here. Not German troops, Nazi troops.

People can reenact Wehrmacht as much as they like, it doesn't bother me, even though Wehrmacht units or soldiers did commit some war crimes.

But the SS, Himmler's pet organization that was meant to embody the Third Reich's racial theories ? The SS, which encompassed such civilization highlights like the Gestapo, the SD, and the Totenkopf concentration and extermination camp administration ? Sorry, but no, no sympathy, even though one can rightfully underline that the Waffen-SS were not guarding Dachau. Their brothers-in-arms were, and that is disturbing enough for me.

Sorry if some members feel like I'm raining on their parade here, guys, but while I'm sure the Waffen-SS troops were one hell of a fighting unit, I find it hard to put aside little facts such as Oradour sur Glane or Lidice, or Krakow, and countless others.

As you said, Kit, the Waffen-SS were political soldiers, and I don't think we're doing anyone a favor by glorifying their militray prowess while at the same time conveniently forgetting which political future they had chosen to fight for.

This being said, I won't spoil anyone's fun anymore on this thread, so whoever wants to talk about it, feel free to PM me.
STFU ....!

[PeterG]

A bunch of pics - and no, i'm not a nazi...

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3537/untitled41nr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/7897/untitled56vl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/1940/untitled134mh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/6121/untitled259qh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/2156/untitled308sz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/2742/untitled335ku.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/484/untitled343pd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/2333/untitled382hs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/8547/untitled403dp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9871/untitled428xe.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/7889/untitled448hy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/2339/untitled462nl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/9412/untitled630ij.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8026/untitled643rg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3637/untitled658rd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3201/untitled667ja.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4605/untitled673br.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9020/untitled683ax.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/9854/untitled712xq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/623/untitled899es.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2456/untitled917wv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1919/untitled922vv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img433.imageshack.us/img433/2359/untitled972gc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5508/untitled978fk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/3760/untitled987qm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7052/untitled1121cn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/3815/untitled1154zj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2757/untitled1198qx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/5083/untitled1500ma.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7902/untitled1535ui.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/9247/untitled1548dv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/699/untitled1550pu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4611/untitled1713ax.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/8720/untitled3353jn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/879/untitled3452pu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/2033/untitled3467vi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/3996/untitled3505rf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/9282/untitled3511eb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/8820/untitled3528yw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/194/untitled3534nd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9538/untitled3590ns.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9978/untitled3677bx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/7333/untitled3811jh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

No, I think that was totally called for. We are talking Nazi troops here. Not German troops, Nazi troops.

People can reenact Wehrmacht as much as they like, it doesn't bother me, even though Wehrmacht units or soldiers did commit some war crimes.

But the SS, Himmler's pet organization that was meant to embody the Third Reich's racial theories ? The SS, which encompassed such civilization highlights like the Gestapo, the SD, and the Totenkopf concentration and extermination camp administration ? Sorry, but no, no sympathy, even though one can rightfully underline that the Waffen-SS were not guarding Dachau. Their brothers-in-arms were, and that is disturbing enough for me.

Sorry if some members feel like I'm raining on their parade here, guys, but while I'm sure the Waffen-SS troops were one hell of a fighting unit, I find it hard to put aside little facts such as Oradour sur Glane or Lidice, or Krakow, and countless others.

As you said, Kit, the Waffen-SS were political soldiers, and I don't think we're doing anyone a favor by glorifying their militray prowess while at the same time conveniently forgetting which political future they had chosen to fight for.

This being said, I won't spoil anyone's fun anymore on this thread, so whoever wants to talk about it, feel free to PM me.

so what about ss division charlemaine-composed of french volunteers (your country men) who werent nazis but joined to fight the soviets.
and the other foreign volunteers swedes,norwegians,latvians,danes,dutch were they all nazis?

before i get flamed off anyone here whos going to go on about the execution of prisoners-which obviously happened,there were afew allied units where your chances of making it to a pow camp were not very good,101st airborne being quite renowed for it.

and obviously wiping out villages is wrong and theres no excuse whatsoever for it but look at the 4 villages above then think of the CITIES that the allies wiped out with the bombing campaign is that any less brutal and wrong?
but no one goes round saying the raf are as bad as the waffen ss.

[DANJANOU]

:roll: Some picture's are very difficult to sie if the are Waffen SS, the only unit in the hole of WOII who wore camoflage clothes.


No. Many Allied and Axis units had camoflage. As already noted both British/Cdn and German Airborne troops wore camoflaged smocks. Both German (SS and Heer) and Russian units had camoflage uniforms on the Eastern Front.

[Klepto]

No, I think that was totally called for. We are talking Nazi troops here. Not German troops, Nazi troops.

People can reenact Wehrmacht as much as they like, it doesn't bother me, even though Wehrmacht units or soldiers did commit some war crimes.

But the SS, Himmler's pet organization that was meant to embody the Third Reich's racial theories ? The SS, which encompassed such civilization highlights like the Gestapo, the SD, and the Totenkopf concentration and extermination camp administration ? Sorry, but no, no sympathy, even though one can rightfully underline that the Waffen-SS were not guarding Dachau. Their brothers-in-arms were, and that is disturbing enough for me.

Sorry if some members feel like I'm raining on their parade here, guys, but while I'm sure the Waffen-SS troops were one hell of a fighting unit, I find it hard to put aside little facts such as Oradour sur Glane or Lidice, or Krakow, and countless others.

As you said, Kit, the Waffen-SS were political soldiers, and I don't think we're doing anyone a favor by glorifying their militray prowess while at the same time conveniently forgetting which political future they had chosen to fight for.

This being said, I won't spoil anyone's fun anymore on this thread, so whoever wants to talk about it, feel free to PM me.



Meh, each side was pretty horrible in their own way, the Allies just won so history has given the Axis the bum wrap.

[DnA]

No. Many Allied and Axis units had camoflage. As already noted both British/Cdn and German Airborne troops wore camopflaged smocks. Both German (SS and Heer) and Russian units had camoflage uniforms on the Eastern Front.

One American unit in Normandy wore camo uniforms for a short period, but they also lost troops to friendly fire since other allied soldiers thought they were W-SS.


Also, the Waffen-SS is not one unit. The Waffen-SS was made up of 38(?) Divisions, etc. Also, not many W-SS soldiers were Nazis, especially the non-Germans, like the Slavs who were considered sub-human to the Aryan race, etc. An a lot of people were forced into the SS, others joined because they wanted to be part of the best. The Germans also promised freedom, etc from Soviet oppression to a lot of people, all they had to do was join up an help defeat the Russians. Also, not every SS Member commited war crimes, an some Divisions had none of their soldiers commit any war crimes. I believe one SS division made up of Russians had the most war crimes in its name, an they were also involved with putting down the Warshaw Ghetto uprising an were quite brutal.


Anyways, good pics of the Waffen-SS.

[Canuck Farrier]

Some more SS photos The 3rd picture from the left is the 12th ss fighting the canadians in normandy I noticed the guy closest looks like Ray Liotta!The last photo is during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising!

[Morboute]

uhm, just noticed this one.
2942
Seen some pictures of flak guns with white rings on them, each for a downed aircraft. (so the text says in the book)

If its true, then these guys must be really good at aiming!

*edit* then again, they might be full of crap who ever wrote that old book

[Morboute]

*ooooooops duble post*

[Kitsune]

I noticed the guy closest looks like Ray Liotta!
Damnit, you are right! Incredible.
I am starting to believe that Time Machines exist...

[Canuck Farrier]

Damnit, you are right! Incredible.
I am starting to believe that Time Machines exist...

ya never know eh! lolp-)

[v-twin]

Superb pictures!

Fsck politics, they kicked ass and took names, everyone **** their pants when the Waffen SS was coming.
Nothing but respect for them as warriors.

[Canuck Farrier]

Superb pictures!

Fsck politics, they kicked ass and took names, everyone **** their pants when the Waffen SS was coming.
Nothing but respect for them as warriors.

I agree about the respect for them as warrriors.For allied soldiers knowing your going to fight against the ss meant fear and anger.I cant imagine,it would be a frustrating fight!The 12th ss in normandy put up a hell of a fight!

[the dakota kid]

Hello all,

not all of the Lithuanians, Latvians, or Estonians welcomed the Nazis with open arms, but they were very receptive to their dislike of Communists, Russians, and Jews. Many of the people viewed the three as one in the same, but that was not only in the Baltic states. The monument in Estonia is in honour of those who chose to fight Bolshevism. Unfortunately, they also chose to fight under the German flag as well. We all know what happened to them after the war, ie Gulag or the bottom of a pit. Lastly, the "Russian" memorial is to the Soviet soldiers, many of whom were not Russians. Especially in the states, we used to believe that all Soviets/Communists were Russian, but we all know this is not true.

Many of the Baltic states, as well as the Ukraine, continued to fight the Soviets until the 1950's. I believe there is a forest in the Ukraine that was off limits to everyone, simply because of all of the arms that were buried there by either the Nazis or the Soviets.

How would I know as an Ami? I lived for a time near Vilnius, formerly known as the "Jerusalem of the East". When the Soviets arrived, non-Lithuanians were the first to join the Communist Party and to openly support them. When the Nazis arrived, you can guess who were the first to put up against the wall....

FWIW,
tdk

[towelie]

http://presentations.uib.no/web4/legionminner/liten.pdf

norweigan SS propaganda phamplet.

[gadzook]

Waffen SS were only feared due to their fanatical craze for Nazism. While they were usually the best supplied and best fed they were remarkably mediocre as soldiers. You can look through the battle histories of various SS units and see that they were chopped to pieces just as fast as conscript units from occupied countries.

It's interesting that in THE REAL WORLD, the one outside of the internet, the world views the Waffen SS as butchers, murderers and killers. Most SS talk surrounds snappy outfits, totenkopf patches and shiny boots. How lame.

Walk the battlefields of the Ardennes and you will see acres and acres of perfectly manicured cemeteries with the graves of fallen Allied soldiers.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1347/028284ic.jpg

The German cemeteries are largely unkept, ugly and overgrown. Germans, here is the resting place of your superhuman super race. Germans, here lies the graves of your best-of-the-best Ardennes soldiers. Here they are. Forgotten for good reason. Killed by lowly hick American farmboys and hillbillies.

Why don't proud Germans take care of their war dead like other countries? Arent there any Germans proud of all that their country accomplished in World War II? Or is it all just anonymous talk?

[abhor]

I agree about the respect for them as warrriors.For allied soldiers knowing your going to fight against the ss meant fear and anger.I cant imagine,it would be a frustrating fight!The 12th ss in normandy put up a hell of a fight!
I can not condone the things that many of the ss divisions did in the war such as the totenkopf. But not all of the ss divisons were crazed butchers as is widely believed. The 12th ss is a perfect example of some of the finest soldiers in the german army during WW2 (65% of the first battalion was under 18 and only 3% over 25). The 12th ss fought fanatically durring the battle for normandy and was almost always outnumbered. My avatar is a pic of Max Wünsche who was Obersturmbannführer (Lt. Colonel) of the 12. ss panzer division at the age of 29. Despite their youth and inexperience Wünsche's regiment was still credited with destroying 219 tanks from June 6th to mid july 1944, and if thats not proof that they were tenacious warriors I don't know what is.

[jmatucd]

Waffen SS were only feared due to their fanatical craze for Nazism. While they were usually the best supplied and best fed they were remarkably mediocre as soldiers. You can look through the battle histories of various SS units and see that they were chopped to pieces just as fast as conscript units from occupied countries.

It's interesting that in THE REAL WORLD, the one outside of the internet, the world views the Waffen SS as butchers, murderers and killers. Most SS talk surrounds snappy outfits, totenkopf patches and shiny boots. How lame.

Walk the battlefields of the Ardennes and you will see acres and acres of perfectly manicured cemeteries with the graves of fallen Allied soldiers.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1347/028284ic.jpg

The German cemeteries are largely unkept, ugly and overgrown. Germans, here is the resting place of your superhuman super race. Germans, here lies the graves of your best-of-the-best Ardennes soldiers. Here they are. Forgotten for good reason. Killed by lowly hick American farmboys and hillbillies.

Why don't proud Germans take care of their war dead like other countries? Arent there any Germans proud of all that their country accomplished in World War II? Or is it all just anonymous talk?

thank you for the post

[abhor]

Waffen SS were only feared due to their fanatical craze for Nazism. While they were usually the best supplied and best fed they were remarkably mediocre as soldiers. You can look through the battle histories of various SS units and see that they were chopped to pieces just as fast as conscript units from occupied countries.

The waffen ss had a very mixed battle record due to most of the divisons being nothing more then criminals in uniform, sent to pillage, kill, and spread fear with their dispicable acts of violence. When the more political divisions of the ss entered battle they were slaughtered because they were only suposed to police the populace of occupied citys. Although there were a few waffen ss divisions that have a very respectable battle record. But it is rather taboo to glorify any soldiers of the ss due to many divisions being very ratical nazi strongarms who commited horrible acts durring the war, and that i can agree with.

[PeterG]

The waffen ss had a very mixed battle record due to most of the divisons being nothing more then criminals in uniform, sent to pillage, kill, and spread fear with their dispicable acts of violence. When the more political divisions of the ss entered battle they were slaughtered because they were only suposed to police the populace of occupied citys. Although there were a few waffen ss divisions that have a very respectable battle record. But it is rather taboo to glorify any soldiers of the ss due to many divisions being very ratical nazi strongarms who commited horrible acts durring the war, and that i can agree with.

Too many rants and comments now folks. Post more pics!

[Sergei]

Soviet recon was using camo all the time throughout the war. What kind of fetish do people have for Waffen SS?

[v-twin]

It's simple, they were awesome. Their panzer divisions were great. The greatest tank comander in the war was Michael Wittman of the Leibstandarte division.

and then some were sent to pacify villages but that was a common practice with the Soviets as well. So they weren't worse than the NKVD from this point of view.
And I don't want to start a flame

[Heinzi]

The German cemeteries are largely unkept, ugly and overgrown. Germans, here is the resting place of your superhuman super race. Germans, here lies the graves of your best-of-the-best Ardennes soldiers. Here they are. Forgotten for good reason. Killed by lowly hick American farmboys and hillbillies.

Why don't proud Germans take care of their war dead like other countries? Arent there any Germans proud of all that their country accomplished in World War II? Or is it all just anonymous talk?

I visited alot of cementeries in France. Not all are in a bad condition. Many are well kept, but very simple and a bit hidden sometimes.
I like the atmosphere more then some gigantic pompous statues and stuff on the france cementeries.

I know and kew some veterans, even some of the WaffenSS. They are very nice and good men. I cant judge about their actions in the war. The saw and survived to much that they really want to talk about it. The undertone in your post ist pretty ignorant and generalizing. If you lack the kowledge about the WaffenSS units and their development at the end of the war please dont post about them.
Thanks
Heinzi

Great photos.

[InetWarrior]

Soviet recon was using camo all the time throughout the war. What kind of fetish do people have for Waffen SS?

They like skulls and shining leather... Waffen SS look like modern time pirates with SM motives :).

[InetWarrior]

It's simple, they were awesome. Their panzer divisions were great. The greatest tank comander in the war was Michael Wittman of the Leibstandarte division.

and then some were sent to pacify villages but that was a common practice with the Soviets as well. So they weren't worse than the NKVD from this point of view.
And I don't want to start a flame

Too late. Telling me that some Naziwarcriminals were "awesome" is clearly invitation to some flame war...
SS as band of nazicriminals are some kind outlawed military formation. They pacify village and kill POW. Nothing to respect here.
WWII German have many good soldiers but very small amount of heroes. To be a hero you need to fight for a good cause - you know. Ie German officers who were killed after failed attempt to kill Hitler are heroes...
Wittman was good soldier serving Evil empire (simple american description) nothing great in him...

[PeterG]

Too late. Telling me that some Naziwarcriminals were "awesome" is clearly invitation to some flame war...
SS as band of nazicriminals are some kind outlawed military formation. They pacify village and kill POW. Nothing to respect here.
WWII German have many good soldiers but very small amount of heroes. To be a hero you need to fight for a good cause - you know. Ie German officers who were killed after failed attempt to kill Hitler are heroes...
Wittman was good soldier serving Evil empire (simple american description) nothing great in him...

Well, evil empire or the forces of Satan - it is still 'strictly photos&videos'....I didn't know every soldier depicted here had to be a certified 'hero' of democracy, fighting a just war. Is red army troops ok, communism and all? Or were they all just scum? How about veterans of wars considered to have been wrong or unjust - like Vietnam. Would you 'allow' pics of them to be posted here..?

[Argyll]

Read the book "Black Edeilweiss"......not all W-SS were butchers and murderers

[Conga]

My Granduncle served in the Waffen SS (Poland, Greece, Russia) and was captured by the Russians at the end of the war. He was on a train home when they stopped it and arrested everybody with a tattoo on the arm. He spent five years in a POW camp in Azerbaijan.

[Schizo]

Well, evil empire or the forces of Satan - it is still 'strictly photos&videos'....I didn't know every soldier depicted here had to be a certified 'hero' of democracy, fighting a just war. Is red army troops ok, communism and all? Or were they all just scum? How about veterans of wars considered to have been wrong or unjust - like Vietnam. Would you 'allow' pics of them to be posted here..?
The big difference is that Red Armie's soldiers were fighting NOT for communism or Stalin, but for their countrie's and their own personal survival.

Now tell me, what were the Waffen-SS fighting for? What was their final goal?

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

The big difference is that Red Armie's soldiers were fighting NOT for communism or Stalin, but for their countrie's and their own personal survival.

Now tell me, what were the Waffen-SS fighting for? What was their final goal?

the red army was just as bad as any ss unit when they got into germany with the raping and murdering so dont stand there and take the moral high ground.

argyle ive read that book too its awesome another one for you is the twighlight of the gods-a swedish volunteers perspective,he wasnt a nazi but joined to fight the bolsheviks.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

Waffen SS were only feared due to their fanatical craze for Nazism. While they were usually the best supplied and best fed they were remarkably mediocre as soldiers. You can look through the battle histories of various SS units and see that they were chopped to pieces just as fast as conscript units from occupied countries.

It's interesting that in THE REAL WORLD, the one outside of the internet, the world views the Waffen SS as butchers, murderers and killers. Most SS talk surrounds snappy outfits, totenkopf patches and shiny boots. How lame.

Walk the battlefields of the Ardennes and you will see acres and acres of perfectly manicured cemeteries with the graves of fallen Allied soldiers.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1347/028284ic.jpg

The German cemeteries are largely unkept, ugly and overgrown. Germans, here is the resting place of your superhuman super race. Germans, here lies the graves of your best-of-the-best Ardennes soldiers. Here they are. Forgotten for good reason. Killed by lowly hick American farmboys and hillbillies.

Why don't proud Germans take care of their war dead like other countries? Arent there any Germans proud of all that their country accomplished in World War II? Or is it all just anonymous talk?

germans arent allowed to be proud becuase of idiots like you then going on to call them nazis!

[Schizo]

AIRBORNEJOCK,

I'll make it simplier for you:

What were the Waffen-SS fighting for?

And don't start with the 'raping' argument, which was mostly done by second line troops seeking for revenge, after Germans troops burned their village, raped their wifes and killed their children.

[Argyll]

They fought for the same thing any soldier fights for in a war.....Patriotism and Nationalism.......more importantly for the man beside you!!

[East Scout]

Anyone have some detailed color pics of the SS in camo......?

[Atlantic Friend]

so what about ss division charlemaine-composed of french volunteers (your country men) who werent nazis but joined to fight the soviets.
and the other foreign volunteers swedes,norwegians,latvians,danes,dutch were they all nazis?

I proposed people to PM not to change the thread's content and orientation, but since it seems everybody prefers to react to it publicly, I'll go with it.

AirborneJock, Have I said something about German SS being bad while French SS would be cool guys ? IIRC, I said "SS". And for SS I have little love, empathy or admiration, wherever they came from, and however cool their uniforms might have been...

As for the Waffen-SS being noble warriors and the rest of the SS being criminals, I think I remember Josef Mengele being a Waffen-SS medical officer before joining the camp administration.

[East Scout]

uhm, just noticed this one.
2942
Seen some pictures of flak guns with white rings on them, each for a downed aircraft. (so the text says in the book)

If its true, then these guys must be really good at aiming!

*edit* then again, they might be full of crap who ever wrote that old book


They often use those platforms against ground targets and recieved a ring..as i understood it a kill was a kill......

[Inquisitor]

AIRBORNEJOCK,

I'll make it simplier for you:

What were the Waffen-SS fighting for?


I am talking about the case of the Waffen SS Bosnian Division,that was the one and only fighting force Bosnian muslims were offered,while being killed by either Ustashas,partizans and chetniks.

For an example,when the partisans started to accept muslims in their division, and formed muslim partizan brigades, about 2000 Waffen SS troops went in the partizans. Another example was that the Bosnian Waffen SS division was the one and only division that mutinated against it's German officers in France(It's rebellion is still celebrated today). They rebelled because the ones that joined the unit wanted to stay in Bosnia to defend their families. As a matter of fact,the division was sent back to Bosnia in order to prevent further rebellions and mutinations. That was to say in this case nazi ideology had nothing to do with it,it was just about getting in a fighting force that could provide you a rifle so you could defend yourself and your families.

[Big Lebowski]

Anyone have some detailed color pics of the SS in camo......?
heres a couple of different summer versions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/_russia__9841.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss_sturmann1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

the first one was the most used not sure about the second one.

[eucalyptus]

My Granduncle served in the Waffen SS (Poland, Greece, Russia) and was captured by the Russians at the end of the war. He was on a train home when they stopped it and arrested everybody with a tattoo on the arm. He spent five years in a POW camp in Azerbaijan.
Thanks for sharing the story

[foxtrot023]

Or Steel Inferno, which describes the fighting history of the 1ss and 12ss divs during Normandy.

The Waffen SS was the foreign legion for the germans. Except some of its famous divs, like the 1st ss, 2nd ss , the infamous 3rd ss (no prisoners from this unit were taken in the Eastern front, and most came from the totemkoft branch that guarded the concentration camps), the 5thss, 9th ss, 10th ss, 12thss, 17th ss, are all regarded as elite units. Of course due to the fact of being political (ie nazi) soldiers makes them both more fanatical and more brutal, and had a much higher number of both incidents and war crimes. But they also had very good soldiers, like M. Wittmann.

[Vandervahn]

...
The German cemeteries are largely unkept, ugly and overgrown. Germans, here is the resting place of your superhuman super race. Germans, here lies the graves of your best-of-the-best Ardennes soldiers. Here they are. Forgotten for good reason. Killed by lowly hick American farmboys and hillbillies.

Why don't proud Germans take care of their war dead like other countries? Arent there any Germans proud of all that their country accomplished in World War II? Or is it all just anonymous talk?

How about some basic decency...

Germany cares for her fallen, and that is unrelated as to whether Germans are proud of them or not; its a moral obligation.

But with over 5 million dead soldiers from both World Wars there are simply too many graveyards to care for. Its an NGO that does this on behalf of the german people and government.

[East Scout]

heres a couple of different summer versions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/_russia__9841.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss_sturmann1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

the first one was the most used not sure about the second one.

YOU ARE MY GOD!

[East Scout]

LOL the guy pointing looks like "The Shermanator" from American Pie

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

AIRBORNEJOCK,

I'll make it simplier for you:

What were the Waffen-SS fighting for?

And don't start with the 'raping' argument, which was mostly done by second line troops seeking for revenge, after Germans troops burned their village, raped their wifes and killed their children.

you cant tar them all with the same brush,there were obviously a massive percent nazis,but what about the ones who wanted to join the what would have been the special forces of that era,and the ones who joined pure and simply to fight communists.
there are probably a few people who think im a nazi,im not by no stretch of the imagination but being intrested in military history but like them or not the waffen ss are a big part of it.and credit where its due they seen some hardcore action.

[PeterG]

Or Steel Inferno, which describes the fighting history of the 1ss and 12ss divs during Normandy.

The Waffen SS was the foreign legion for the germans. Except some of its famous divs, like the 1st ss, 2nd ss , the infamous 3rd ss (no prisoners from this unit were taken in the Eastern front, and most came from the totemkoft branch that guarded the concentration camps), the 5thss, 9th ss, 10th ss, 12thss, 17th ss, are all regarded as elite units. Of course due to the fact of being political (ie nazi) soldiers makes them both more fanatical and more brutal, and had a much higher number of both incidents and war crimes. But they also had very good soldiers, like M. Wittmann.

The 3rd was definately also an elite unit - infamous or not. It fought with distinction in the Demyansk pocket, at kharkov, kursk, etc. It was in the thick of it on the eastern front for years, and was clearly one of the best divisions the germans had. Read the book 'soldiers of destruction' for the history of this division. And no - it does not defend or apologize crimes comitted by men of the division, it is not an apologist book. But it was still an 'elite' unit in the military sense of the word.
amazon.com link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691008531/102-5694924-2804911?v=glance&n=283155

[Big Lebowski]

some pics of SS Polizei-Division 1941

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-polizei-division__5_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-polizei-division__6_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
tired mortar crew

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-polizei-division__8_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-polizei-division__12_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
officer of polizei division

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-polizei-division__15_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
russian prisoner

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-polizei-division__16_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
Taking more prisoners

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-polizei-division__17_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-polizei-division__18_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

thx to Ivanwss from the axishistory forums for all the nice pics

[East Scout]

@ Big Lobowski...Good pics..Thanks!

[Huhtis]

Please stop the friggen politics because there is people who like to
see the pics.

So heres my contribute:

http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/8961/osp363gt.th.jpg (http://img330.imageshack.us/my.php?image=osp363gt.jpg)

http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/9726/osp265fz.th.jpg (http://img330.imageshack.us/my.php?image=osp265fz.jpg)

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/6092/osp307qs.th.jpg (http://img462.imageshack.us/my.php?image=osp307qs.jpg)

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/5264/osp333vo.th.jpg (http://img462.imageshack.us/my.php?image=osp333vo.jpg)

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/263/osp371vk.th.jpg (http://img462.imageshack.us/my.php?image=osp371vk.jpg)

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/7311/osp388wp.th.jpg (http://img462.imageshack.us/my.php?image=osp388wp.jpg)

Pics are from Osprey`s Men at arms-series Waffen-SS 1. to 5. divisions-book

[Kitsune]

While they were usually the best supplied and best fed they were remarkably mediocre as soldiers.

There were 38 Waffen SS Divisions. And by no means all were extraordinary fighting outfits. Because of the lack of homogenity one cannot say that the Waffen SS as a whole constituted an elite fighting force. Another myth is that they recieved weapons before other units. This is simply not true.

However, some of the Waffen SS outfits (some started out as Regiments and were later turned into Divisions), notably the 1st ("Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler"), the 2nd ("Das Reich"), the 3rd ("Totenkopf") and the 5th ("Wiking") can be rightfully regarded as elite formations. All of these have a battle-record that is simply amazing and outstrips that of any Allied Division. One has to give it to the Nazis that they did not pamper their dearest and send them where the fight was hottest. Especially these mentioned Waffen SS units showed a determination, fighting effectiveness and resilience that cannot be denied (and is by no means "mediocre").

As far as their gear is concerned all of the elite Waffen SS Divisions were well equipped. But once again it is not true that they, or even the 1st Waffen SS Division (who was wearing the Adolf's name in their banner and regarded itself as an elite within the elite) would get the newest stuff before any unit of the normal German military got it. Elite Wehrmacht formations like the Divisions "Grossdeutschland" or "Panzer Lehr" (especially that one) received the best and newest equipment BEFORE any Waffen SS Division.

All of the Waffen SS Divisions mentioned above have been charged with warcrimes, except for "Wiking". (However, since some historians could not believe that an SS outfit without warcrimes is possible, some digging was done. And finally a diary of a Wiking soldier was uncovered that suggessts that even the "Wiking" Division partook in warcrimes. There you have it.)
For example, the Leibstandarte was responsible for the so called Malmedy massacre. "Das Reich" for the destruction of Oradour. "Totenkopf" is especially doubtful since this unit kept contact with the SS "Totenkopf" units whose task was to guard the concentration camps. And so forth.

But once again any notion that these men were completely different in their behaviour than others, being on a constant killing spree and massacring every civilian they could find is simply not true. (And not even the Western Allies authorities on their de-nazification crusade have claimed that, although they weren't exactly timid or otherwise too much inhibited by truth or justice). It has to be admitted that the claim that they wold "have been soldiers just like any others" can be reasoned against. But there are also some things that speak for it.
How ever one may see it, in the end they were human beings, like it or not. Not even the accusation that they were selected for especially criminal or sadistic types of character is true (actually, on the contrary: if you had a criminal record you weren't allowed to serve in those mentioned outfits). They were chosen according to NS racial ideals however and meant to be an racial elite as the Nazi leadership understood that term (hence the demanded minimum size, Waffen SS soldiers, especially those of the LSAH had to be tall guys). It was also tried to motivate them along the sides of the pseudo Germanic mythos the Nazis liked to spread with an high emphazising of loyality.
But when it comes down ot it, their training was not completely unlike that of other units and the weaknesses and strengths they displayed were often all too human as well.


A few links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibstandarte_SS_Adolf_Hitler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Totenkopf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_%28motorised%29_Wiking







Why don't proud Germans take care of their war dead like other countries? Arent there any Germans proud of all that their country accomplished in World War II? Or is it all just anonymous talk?
It is true that for Germans the feeling of shame overshadows the (often amazing) accomplishments of their armed forces in WWII. This has been deliberatly furthered and enhanced by the victorious nations on all sides. It has become next to impossible to discuss their achievements on the battlefield without some a-hole popping up and demanding that the "astrocities and warcrimes have to be mentioned and discussed as well". An aspect that is usually left out altogether when the exploits of Allied troops are discussed. (Even western Allied troops weren't exactly timid and did commit their share of warcrimes, that goes for Americans, British, French and Polish troops as for many others. As far as the Soviets are concerned, their cruelty is often simply staggering. And none of these nations have ever made amends or have even tried to punish the guilty. With good reason. In the end someone could get the idea to term many Allied generals or even leaders of state like Roosevelt and Churchill as "warcriminals" and we don't want that to happen, do we?)

By and large, German graves are well tended. But through all this post-war conditioning Germans have somewhat lost this ability of selective thinking that the members of Allied nations have mastered so well and which allows them to see every soldier fighting for their side as a hero just because he was wearing a uniform at the time...and to just ignore the rest. We simply cannot see our soldiers the same way (although they were not worse humans than the others, this I do claim). This goes especially for the soldiers of the Waffen SS: too many people cannot help but to regard them as criminals and butchers without even knowing anything of that organisation. Myths abound, in which they appear as soulless monsters or supreme fighting machines that cause a shudder running down ones spine. The question how these ominous "Nazis" have managed such an extraordinary feat to turn whole divisions of men into combat androids devoid of any human feelings is not even posed. Its not even about the question wether the NS leadership would have liked that, it is simply that they could not have done it wether they wanted or not. Only if you study the matter en detail one starts to understand that.



Regards,

Kitsune

[Groove]

Once there was a documentary about Waffen-SS in german television. They asked some Waffen-SS vets and some Wehrmacht vets about the 2nd ww. The Wehrmacht guys hated the Waffen-SS soldiers because they were brutal and they made no prisoners. Besides this they were all nazi brain washed.

Btw dont try to distract with such things like " ... what they did at the end of the war..." Ask what they did in the beginng...

They arent normal soldiers.

[Big Lebowski]

nice post kitsune and nice pics huhtis! never seen those in high res. thx

yes groove some where "murders" but not all. take wiking division for example or friekorps denmark.
the majorty where not nazis but fought against bolshevism

and that was a factor in most forgien ss divisions

stop deneing history and live with it.

[East Scout]

Mods Please Stop The Political Bs..there Is A Section For This Is There Not??

[Groove]

im wont post anymore on this topic but calling it political bull**** have a strange taste... especially having a nick like brandenburger.

[He219]

im wont post anymore on this topic but calling it political bull**** have a strange taste... especially having a nick like brandenburger.
Weren't they part of the Abwehr?
Those weren't ze Evil Germans; remember Admiral Canaris and The Eagle Has Landed?
;)

Back on track though, ban hammer is warming up!

[East Scout]

Weren't they part of the Abwehr?
Those were the good guys, remember Admiral Canaris and The Eagle Has Landed?
;)

Back on track though, ban hammer is warming up!

Yes they were...Mostly chosen from Slovic or other tribes considered "untermanchen" by Reich standards but this would allow them to blend easier in certain areas where they would be deployed. Both visulay and with language...They did everyting from Para-borne operation. Mountain operation, Kommando raids to operations that were a kin to modern KSK situations..Name it they did it..Their symbol was a question mark infront of a shield as one just never knew who was a Brandenburg Kommando or where they woudl strike..Many Jopinedthe SS to help in the Ardenne offensive and were in Skorzanies Para units that dressed as US soldiers

SAS recruited many of them after the war to help kick start post war operations to counter the soviet threat.......

Only problem i see with them is there werent enough pictures taken of their operations and training..(there were some) No Im left to my imagination..

[Big Lebowski]

pics of SS Totenkopf-Division 1941

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-div_totenkopf__1_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
marching through russia

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-div_totenkopf__2_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
marching through russia. totenkopf soldiers on their krupp

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-div_totenkopf__4_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-div_totenkopf__6_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ukraine__6_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
ss pak crew (pak36)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ukraine__8_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

[East Scout]

Sorry i had to use this pic for my avatar..The sarcasum of his grin donates to the hopelessness of his situation...........Ill take it down if you wish;-)

[He219]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/Todays%20Pix/30ad665a.jpg
'30 meter abstand' - not even in Italian ...
Two German Nazi SS soldiers admire the Cathedral in Pisa with the famed Leaning Tower in the foreground, in 1943, during the German occupation of Italy in World War II. (AP Photo)

[abhor]

However, some of the Waffen SS outfits (some started out as Regiments and were later turned into Divisions), notably the 1st ("Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler"), the 2nd ("Das Reich"), the 3rd ("Totenkopf") and the 5th ("Wiking") can be rightfully regarded as elite formations. All of these have a battle-record that is simply amazing and outstrips that of any Allied Division. Kitsune
Hmm. Im not sure were you got all of your information but to say that the 3rd totenkopf was an elite fighting group that rivals any allied division is blowing things way out of proportion. There is no record of the 3rd totenkopf ever doing anything that was of extraordinary merit. The only time they were a successful fighting force was when they were along side some of the more battle hardened divisions such as Das Reich, and Panzergrenadier-Division Großdeutschland. For example on the one occasion they were tasked with holding a town in the Demyansk Pocket, they were massacred the mighty third panzer-division totenkopf was brought to its knees and suffered such heavy losses it was reduced to a Kampfgruppe (company). Their battle-record speeks for itself. The 3rd should not have left dachau for combat but because of a deteriorated situation in the barbarosa campaign they were thrust into battle unprepared. lets try not to forget what totenkopf was originally tasked with, they deserve no glorification.

[fantassin]

the 3rd SS Div. was also responsible for several massacres in France in 1940; British POWs in Le Paradis, Senegalese colonial troops near Lyons and several civilians as reprisals for the severe maulings they got at the hands of French and british troops in the North of France in june 1940.

Every time they got a pasting, they would go on a killing spree on the local French population on the folloing day.

Now, that takes courage and is the sign of an elite unit.

[Big Lebowski]

Gen.Heinz Guderian with a SS-Stubaf and SS troops

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/guderian___diefenthal_11.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/guderian___diefenthal_21.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

[East Scout]

Schnelle Hienz! good picture!

[abhor]

Sorry I had to remove the pics. I didn't read the post about not using hot links to other websites.

[PeterG]

Hmm. Im not sure were you got all of your information but to say that the 3rd totenkopf was an elite fighting group that rivals any allied division is blowing things way out of perportion. There is no record of the 3rd totenkopf ever doing anything that was of extraordinary merit. The only time they were a successful fighting force was when they were along side some of the more battle hardened divisions such as Das Reich, and Panzergrenadier-Division Großdeutschland. For example on the one occasion they were tasked with holding a town in the Demyansk Pocket, they were massacred the mighty third panzer-division totenkopf was brought to its knees and suffered such heavy losses it was reduced to a Kampfgruppe (company). Their battle-record speeks for itself. The 3rd should not have left dachau for combat but because of a deteriorated situation in the barbarosa campaign they were thrust into battle unprepared. lets try not to forget what totenkopf was originally tasked with, they deserve no glorification.

This is utter nonsense. The totenkopf performed brilliantly in the demyansk pocket, fighting against staggering odds. Three Soviet Armies composed of 18 infantry divisions and three brigades were tied up for 4 months. The reason the russians didn't crush the demyansk pocket, were mainly because of the totenkopf - and yes, units of them were 'massacred' in combat, in the sense that whole companies fought to the last man....But they held the pocket! And a Kampfgruppe was not a 'company' sized unit - it could be anything up to a corps in size.

[Crassus]

12. SS-Hitlerjugend prisoners in Normandy

http://home.att.net/%7Edelaglio.frank/Warcrimes.jpg

...and this guy probably fell the stairsp-)

http://home.att.net/%7Edelaglio.frank/Btnface.jpg

From:http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/Index.html (http://home.att.net/%7ESSPzHJ/Index.html)

[eucalyptus]

http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/3800/panzer835fs.jpg
http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/5153/peiper046nj.jpg
http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/288/peiper033ny.jpg



http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/8175/lah26td.jpg
http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/9912/hg11ez.jpg

[turska]

Too late. Telling me that some Naziwarcriminals were "awesome" is clearly invitation to some flame war...
SS as band of nazicriminals are some kind outlawed military formation. They pacify village and kill POW. Nothing to respect here.
WWII German have many good soldiers but very small amount of heroes. To be a hero you need to fight for a good cause - you know. Ie German officers who were killed after failed attempt to kill Hitler are heroes...
Wittman was good soldier serving Evil empire (simple american description) nothing great in him...

This is completly matter of side.

A hero to one is a terrorist to another.

[turska]

This is utter nonsense. The totenkopf performed brilliantly in the demyansk pocket, fighting against staggering odds. Three Soviet Armies composed of 18 infantry divisions and three brigades were tied up for 4 months. The reason the russians didn't crush the demyansk pocket, were mainly because of the totenkopf - and yes, units of them were 'massacred' in combat, in the sense that whole companies fought to the last man....But they held the pocket! And a Kampfgruppe was not a 'company' sized unit - it could be anything up to a corps in size.

Totenkopf started badly as most of its men was former camp guards, but it fought better after it had first bought experience with blood.

[Big Lebowski]

not sure i like those comments turska..

please dont start anything, this is a picture thread

[fantassin]

...and this guy probably fell the stairsp-)

http://home.att.net/%7Edelaglio.frank/Btnface.jpg

From:http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/Index.html (http://home.att.net/%7ESSPzHJ/Index.html)

The 12 SS started the Normandy campaign by slaughtering Canadian POWs on the first day of their engagement; better a black eye than a bullet in the neck like those bastards did to the Canucks

[East Scout]

WTF is the hammer?????????????????

[eucalyptus]

WTF is the hammer?????????????????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer

[turska]

not sure i like those comments turska..

please dont start anything, this is a picture thread

Just pointing out that the world aint black and white.

Btw. Why SS started to use camo on the first place?

[Big Lebowski]

pics of SS-Kampfgruppe Nord later to be 6th SS-Division Nord
in Karelia area (finland) 1941

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-div_nord__1_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-div_nord__4_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
climbing

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-div_nord__6_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
resting time

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-div_nord__9_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/ss-div_nord__11_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

Btw. Why SS started to use camo on the first place?
to camouflage them selfs :P

[East Scout]

12. SS-Hitlerjugend prisoners in Normandy

http://home.att.net/%7Edelaglio.frank/Warcrimes.jpg

...and this guy probably fell the stairsp-)

http://home.att.net/%7Edelaglio.frank/Btnface.jpg

From:http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/Index.html (http://home.att.net/%7ESSPzHJ/Index.html)

These lads just got burned by a stiff tall steaming cup of reality.......

[abhor]

This is utter nonsense. The totenkopf performed brilliantly in the demyansk pocket, fighting against staggering odds. Three Soviet Armies composed of 18 infantry divisions and three brigades were tied up for 4 months. The reason the russians didn't crush the demyansk pocket, were mainly because of the totenkopf - and yes, units of them were 'massacred' in combat, in the sense that whole companies fought to the last man....But they held the pocket! And a Kampfgruppe was not a 'company' sized unit - it could be anything up to a corps in size.

You make it sound as if it were 18 divisions against just the totenkopf. The numbers were 100000 thousand well trained and well armed german soldiers vs. 150000 soviet mixed forces most of which were ill equiped civilians recruited into the military with little training. Now lets see here what you are trying to tell me is that the totenkopf with all of their supperior training and equipment did well? huh wow, lets not confuse fanaticism with good soldiering. The 3rd's brothers in arms such as the 12th, 30th, 32nd, 123rd and 290th infantry divisions did quite well sustaining very few losses. While the totenkopf was utterly destroyed taking the brunt of all casualties due to bad leadership and inexperience. So next time you comment make sure you know what you are talking about. What the totenkopf showed in the demyansk pocket was a willingness to die nothing more.

[Esszett]

How about some basic decency...

Germany cares for her fallen, and that is unrelated as to whether Germans are proud of them or not; its a moral obligation.

But with over 5 million dead soldiers from both World Wars there are simply too many graveyards to care for. Its an NGO that does this on behalf of the german people and government.
x 2.
During my time in the Bundeswehr we conscripts had the chance to volunteer to collect money for the "Kriegsgräberfürsorge" (the NGO Vandervahn mentioned, which cares for German war-graves) and there wasn't anyone who didn't volunteer for this service.

@ gazook: I find it very (note: VERY) low to mock the fallen ones of the world wars no matter where they are from, the Allied or German/ Axis side.
After all, most of the ones who died just fought for their country and to defend their families, even the "superhuman Germans":roll: (as if most of the simple German soldiers thought this way), and not for some stupid political idea.
But I guess in your self-rightous world such claims are perfectly justified (hey, have you heard how EVIL all of these EVIL Germans were in WW II (of course this is no racism, since this only happens on the EVIL side!)?).

Yes, I am very biased since members of my family died in this horrible war on German side (not all of them were soldiers).
And I know that not all SS-soldiers were Nazis since one of my grandfathers, who didn't care for politics at all, has told me how the SS tried to recuit him just because he was tall, blonde and blue-eyed, and for no other reason.
Only a lucky coincidence (met my grandma (polish)) prevented him from joining the SS and therefore from being shot on the spot when he was captured in the Ukraine by the Soviets (not that he had survived if he hadn't fled from Soviet prisonship anyways).

[FOLIO]

Outstanding pictures PeterG woot
Tank you for sharing :hug:

[v-twin]

Great pictures dudes.
Congratulations.
As for the discussions, I'll say only this, and please don't reply; I see the Soviets as the greater evil of the period. I don't care who got slaughtered in the German camps, there were different times the same way I don't care who got slaughtered in the Soviet gulags. In both instances innocent people had to suffer. Thank you.

Honor et Patria.

[He219]

http://home.att.net/%7Edelaglio.frank/Btnface.jpg
Anybody else notice the prisoner's left hand? ............^

[eucalyptus]

Yes, he is walking so his right arm is thrusting forward and his left backwards.

[He219]

Yes, he is walking so his right arm is thrusting forward and his left backwards.
Nah. Can't be the superace.
;)

[toki]

Note the helmet cover:
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7902/untitled1535ui.jpg

reminds me of the tested USMC urban warfare camo, that wasn't realized:
http://www.specwargear.com/images/bdu-usmc%20urban%20camo%203.jpg

[abhor]

http://home.att.net/%7Edelaglio.frank/Btnface.jpg
Anybody else notice the prisoner's left hand? ............^

Yeah I noticed his right too :). I think it's just a wierd angle that makes his left hand look awkward.

[Big Lebowski]

pics of SS Totenkopf-Division 1941

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__10_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)
totenkopf flak crew (flak18 "88")

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__9_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__3_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__4_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__5_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__6_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__11_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__14_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)
totenkopf flak crew (flak38 20mm)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__16_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/totenkopf__17_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)
soviet plane shot down

[foxtrot023]

The 3rd was definately also an elite unit - infamous or not. It fought with distinction in the Demyansk pocket, at kharkov, kursk, etc. It was in the thick of it on the eastern front for years, and was clearly one of the best divisions the germans had. Read the book 'soldiers of destruction' for the history of this division. And no - it does not defend or apologize crimes comitted by men of the division, it is not an apologist book. But it was still an 'elite' unit in the military sense of the word.
amazon.com link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691008531/102-5694924-2804911?v=glance&n=283155

I agree, however it was infamous for its death camp origins.

[Hukatus]

Why don't proud Germans take care of their war dead like other countries? Arent there any Germans proud of all that their country accomplished in World War II? Or is it all just anonymous talk?okay there were many estonians who joined waffen SS to fighting against soviet invasion and bolshevism.
a monument was installed to honour these soldiers, the text on the mnument reads: "For Estonian men who fought in 1940-1945 against Bolshevism and for the restoration of Estonian independence"
and just because they were forced to fight under waffen ss flag, russia launched a propaganda campaign to call all these men nazis and the opening of this monument was called gloryfing nazism.
some people will never understand...

also some pictures (http://www.wehrmacht.pri.ee/fotod/waffenss/waffenss.html) of estonians fighting in waffen ss ranks.

[fantassin]

Yes, gorgeous uniforms, beautiful camouflages, lovely haircuts and oh so nice blue eyes....in the service of pure evil.

How funny it's only people who live in places that never had to feel the depravation and horror of the SS rule who think those murderers were anything but the lowest form of uniformed lives.

The "splendid" Das Reich division which drowned mothers and children in wells in Oradour sur Glane and hung civilians from street lights in Tulle; the "fearsome" 12 SS who murdered 134 Canadian POWs in Normandy, sometimes by deliberatly driving heavy trucks on POWs columns being marched to the rear...all those splendid warriors; Peiper who left Normandy with a nervous breakdown after having been an ADC for most of the war; Monhke who was a morphine addict; Fegelein who became a general by marrying Hitler's wife sister and by "courageously" drowning hundred of jews in the Pripet swamps...the list of those perverts is endless.

Quit masturbating over those disgusting criminals, bow your head in respect of their victims and stop posting propaganda pictures of that degenerated cast of barbarians, there are much better things to do.

[duck]

I agree, however it was infamous for its death camp origins.

Let's not forget the sadism and psychopathic attitudes that the unit displayed when mass murdering and raping Russian civilians.

It's a pity that the entire unit was not brought to the sword like some other SS crazies luckily were ( Halberstadt etc. ).

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

Yes, gorgeous uniforms, beautiful camouflages, lovely haircuts and oh so nice blue eyes....in the service of pure evil.

How funny it's only people who live in places that never had to feel the depravation and horror of the SS rule who think those murderers were anything but the lowest form of uniformed lives.

The "splendid" Das Reich division which drowned mothers and children in wells in Oradour sur Glane and hung civilians from street lights in Tulle; the "fearsome" 12 SS who murdered 134 Canadian POWs in Normandy, sometimes by deliberatly driving heavy trucks on POWs columns being marched to the rear...all those splendid warriors; Peiper who left Normandy with a nervous breakdown after having been an ADC for most of the war; Monhke who was a morphine addict; Fegelein who became a general by marrying Hitler's wife sister and by "courageously" drowning hundred of jews in the Pripet swamps...the list of those perverts is endless.

Quit masturbating over those disgusting criminals, bow your head in respect of their victims and stop posting propaganda pictures of that degenerated cast of barbarians, there are much better things to do.

if you dont want to see the pics dont look at them then!

[East Scout]

Yes, gorgeous uniforms, beautiful camouflages, lovely haircuts and oh so nice blue eyes....in the service of pure evil.

How funny it's only people who live in places that never had to feel the depravation and horror of the SS rule who think those murderers were anything but the lowest form of uniformed lives.

The "splendid" Das Reich division which drowned mothers and children in wells in Oradour sur Glane and hung civilians from street lights in Tulle; the "fearsome" 12 SS who murdered 134 Canadian POWs in Normandy, sometimes by deliberatly driving heavy trucks on POWs columns being marched to the rear...all those splendid warriors; Peiper who left Normandy with a nervous breakdown after having been an ADC for most of the war; Monhke who was a morphine addict; Fegelein who became a general by marrying Hitler's wife sister and by "courageously" drowning hundred of jews in the Pripet swamps...the list of those perverts is endless.

Quit masturbating over those disgusting criminals, bow your head in respect of their victims and stop posting propaganda pictures of that degenerated cast of barbarians, there are much better things to do.


relax or call your doctor for some xanex ....your going to die early getting excited like this...post some pics or look at another thread...obviously no one cares so save your breat or contribute ...

[fantassin]

LE PARADIS (Pas-de-Calais, May 26, 1940)

A company of the Royal Norfolk Regiment, trapped in a cowshed, surrendered to the 2nd Infantry Regiment, SS 'Totenkopf' (Death's Head) Division under the command of 28 year old SS Obersturmfuhrer Fritz Knoechlein. Marched to a group of farm buildings, they were lined up in the meadow along side the barn wall. When the 99 prisoners were in position, two machine guns opened fire killing 97 of them. The bodies were then buried in a shallow pit in front of the barn. Two managed to escape, Privates Albert Pooley and William O'Callaghan of the Royal Norfolk Regiment emerged from the slaughter wounded but alive. When the SS troops moved on, the two wounded soldiers were discovered, after having hid in a pig-sty for three days and nights, by Madame Duquenne-Creton and her son Victor who had left their farm when the fighting started. She then cared for them till captured again by another, much more friendly, Wehrmacht unit to spend the rest of the war as POWs. In 1942, the bodies of those executed were exhumed by the French authorities and reburied in the local churchyard now part of the Le Paradis War Cemetery. After the war, the massacre was investigated by the War Crimes Investigation Unit and Knoechlein was traced and arrested. During the war he had been awarded three Knight's Crosses. Tried before a War Crimes Court in the No. 5 Court of the Curiohaus, Altona, in Hamburg, he was found guilty and sentenced to death by hanging and on January 28, 1949, the sentence was carried out. Married with four children, his wife attended the trial every day. (On May 27, 1970 a memorial plaque was affixed to the barn wall and unveiled by Madame Creton in the presence of members of the Dunkirk Veterans Association)

WORMHOUDT ATROCITY (Pas-de-Calais, May 27/28 , 1940)

The day after the Le Paradis massacre, around 100 men of the 2nd Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment and the Royal Artillery, were taken prisoner by the No 7 Company, 2nd Battalion of the SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. At Esquelbecq, near the town of Wormhoudt, about twelve miles from Dunkirk, the prisoners were marched across fields to a nearby farm and there confined in a barn with not enough room for the wounded to lie down. There the massacre began. About five stick grenades were lobbed in amongst the defenceless prisoners who died in agony as shrapnel tore into their flesh. When the last grenade had been thrown, those still standing were then ordered outside, five at a time, there to be mown down under a hail of bullets from the rifles of the executioners. Fifteen men survived the atrocity in the barn only to give themselves up later to other German units to serve out the war as POWs. Bodies of the murdered victims were buried in a mass grave dug up near the barn. A year later, the SS, in an attempt to cover up the crime, disinterred the bodies and buried them in various cemeteries in Esquelbecq and Wormhoudt. In 1947, the War Graves Commission erected headstones over the graves but as most of the bodies bore no identification, their ID tags and pay books being destroyed by the SS prior to the shootings, the names carved on the headstones bear no relation to the bodies buried underneath. Unlike the Le Paradis massacre, the victims of Wormhoudt were never avenged, as after the war no survivor could positively identify any of the SS soldiers involved.

[duck]

Could we have some pictures of Red Army troops on "anti-Partisan" operations among the "Werewolf" population of East Prussia and Pomerania? It's always enlightening to see elite troops at work.

[fantassin]

ORADOUR-SUR-GLANE (Central France, June 10, 1944)

On their 450 mile drive from the south of France to the Normandy invasion area, the 2nd SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich' (15,000 men aboard 1,400 vehicles, including 209 tanks) under the command of SS General Lammerding, arrived at Limoges, a town famous for its porcelain. In the small town of St. Junien (30 kilometres from Limoges) the 'Der Führer Regiment' was regrouping. Following many encounters with the local maquis in which two German soldiers were killed, a unit of the regiment arrived at ORADOUR (believed to be a hotbed of maquis activity) in a convoy of trucks and half-tracks. At about 2 PM on this Saturday afternoon the 120 man SS unit surrounded the village ordering all inhabitants to parade in the market place for an identity check. Women and children were separated from the menfolk and herded into the local church. The men were herded in groups into six carefully chosen local garages and barns and shot. Their bodies were then covered with straw and set on fire. The 452 women and children in the church were then suffocated by smoke grenades lobbed in through the windows and sharpnel grenades that were thrown down the nave while machine-guns raked the interior. The church was then set on fire.

Incredibly, one woman, Mme Marguerite Rouffanche, escaped by jumping through a window, she was the only witness to the carnage in the church. (Mme Rouffanche died, aged 91, in March, 1988) Unspeakable atrocities were committed throughout the village, but some men managed to escape. The commanding officer of the 1st Battalion of the SS Regiment at ORADOUR was thirty-two year old SS Sturmbannführer Adolf Diekmann, a survivor of the Russian Front. He was later killed in the Normandy battle area on June 30 when hit in the head by shrapnel.

[Big Lebowski]

just for the record my granddad was in the danish resistance and i admire him with great respect (RIP)

im not trying to glorify the warcrimes by some ss units and i will not tolerate being depicted as somekind of nazi just because i post pics of "our" history.

[Cabbage]

It's without doubt some Waffen SS soldiers were evil. But I would like to believe most were not. Attrocities were much more widespread and commonplace in those days and not just limited to the Waffen SS. I would advise Fantassin to research the rape and murdering of Italian civilians at the hands of the Free French. Or how about the Red Army who occupied Berlin and began the rape of German women on a mass scale?

If you don't like the thread, you are free to not read it. Thanks.

[fantassin]

THE TULLE MURDERS (Near Limoges, Central France, June 9, 1944)

The day before the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane, the SS murdered 99 men in the town of Tulle in central France. This was in response to activities by the local FTP resistance groups who had attacked and taken over the town. When the 2nd SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich' took over the town they found 40 dead bodies of the German 3rd Battalion/95th Security Regiment garrison troops near the school, their bodies badly mutilated. Other bodies were found around the town, bringing the total German dead in Tulle to sixty-four. Next day, the reprisals began. All males in the town were gathered together and 130 suspects were selected for execution. A number were released because of their youth and the remaining 99 were executed by the Pioneer Platoon of SS-Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 2. Their bodies were hung up on lamp-posts and from balconies along the main streets of the town in the hope that the hanging bodies would deter future attacks by the Maquis and the FTP. More would have been hanged had not the SS ran out of rope. Instead, they rounded up 149 civilians and deported them to Germany for slave labour. Of these, 101 did not return.

[duck]

It's without doubt some Waffen SS soldiers were evil. But I would like to believe most were not. Attrocities were much more widespread and commonplace in those days and not just limited to the Waffen SS. I would advise Fantassin to research the rape and murdering of Italian civilians at the hands of the Free French. Or how about the Red Army who occupied Berlin and began the rape of German women on a mass scale?

If you don't like the thread, you are free to not read it. Thanks.

As for Berlin, at the same time SS units were hanging German schoolchildren ( Flakhelfer ) who deserted their posts and families of alleged deserters because it was "teutonic tradition to punish even the kinship of traitors". But I don't doubt their "Flecktarn" looked cool even while that 16-year old was straggling from the lamppost.

[He219]

fantassin: You've pushed it far enough with your personal diatribe. This is a photo thread and you are blatantly thread-jacking. Evil begets evil and many atrocities were commited at the end of the war, even by Frenchmen (Saint-Julien-de-Crempse). Don't forget about the executions of Germans by resistance fighters and groups of pillaging irregular French forces that entered Germany at the end of the war.


And that goes for you too, duck.

[PeterG]

You make it sound as if it were 18 divisions against just the totenkopf. The numbers were 100000 thousand well trained and well armed german soldiers vs. 150000 soviet mixed forces most of which were ill equiped civilians recruited into the military with little training. Now lets see here what you are trying to tell me is that the totenkopf with all of their supperior training and equipment did well? huh wow, lets not confuse fanaticism with good soldiering. The 3rd's brothers in arms such as the 12th, 30th, 32nd, 123rd and 290th infantry divisions did quite well sustaining very few losses. While the totenkopf was utterly destroyed taking the brunt of all casualties due to bad leadership and inexperience. So next time you comment make sure you know what you are talking about. What the totenkopf showed in the demyansk pocket was a willingness to die nothing more.

Most of the units of six german divisions was encircled yes, by the time of the encirclement they were already exhausted and weakened - and could only be supplied by air. The russians pressed in on them with 15 divisions of fresh troops and an assortment of armor and ski battalions. The most supplies delivered in one day was 286 tons on Feb. 23. For six divisions. Later, it was only half the minimum required. The nucleus of the encircled german forces were the SSTK - and the documents exist to show that the other german units in the pocket desperately requested assistance by the SSTK when the lines were on the verge of collapsing. When they finally broke out on april 20, it was an SSTK batallion who broke through the final russian defensive line.

After the battle, Hitler awarded Eicke the oak leaves, and 11 other SSTK men the knights cross - the most given to any SS division in such a short time, during the entire war. Hitler also stated that he considered the SSTK the main reason the pocket had held out the entire winter, and then broke out.

The SSTK suffered a total of 6674 dead, wounded, missing or sick between jan-april. After beginning the campaign in Russia with 17 265 men. By may they were still in action by Lake Ilmen, and were down to 6700 men when they were withdrawn and rebuildt.

[He219]

The ban stick is swinging.
Anybody else want to try the taste?


This is not a political discussion thread.
Post pictures instead.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/Todays%20Pix/85cfc2a8.jpg
German Nazi SS soldiers are seen operating an antitank gun in the streets of Mariupol, in southeastern Ukraine, in October 1941, during the Nazi German occupation of the Donbass region in the Soviet Union. (AP Photo)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/Todays%20Pix/09469313.jpg
German soldiers are seen in combat in the streets of Ukrainian capital Kiev, on October 18, 1941, during the German invasion of the Soviet Union. (AP Photo)

[towelie]

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7361/4ssnlvolkhov8uh5ka.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3286/000385km.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9261/dasmark19ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img414.imageshack.us/img414/9928/kursk2598uk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img414.imageshack.us/img414/4385/kursk2645ac.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9281/kursk3477ea.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img414.imageshack.us/img414/9411/kursk3521to.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5774/nordmenn9az.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5177/pk657755nv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7343/tigerdrzihtomir9sh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/4213/waffenss1do.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Cabbage]

Thanks He219, commonsense at last!! These were soldiers for God's sake. Not politicians.

Excellent thread by the way. I've learnt alot of new things about them...thanks for everyone contributing.woot

[Canuck Farrier]

Nice photos!

[Big Lebowski]

pics of 1.SS-Infanterie-Brigade in muddy Ukraine 1941

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ss-inf_brig___11_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)
krupp truck

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ss-inf_brig___2_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)
motorcycles in the mud

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ss-inf_brig___17_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ss-inf_brig___10_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/?)
stuck..

[Argyll]

Nobody has denied the W-SS were not guilty of committing atrocities.

The W-SS interest me as I build scale models,and the replicating of some of the patterns is a challenge in it's own,I have perhaps a dozen reference books about them, they were soldiers serving their country, who went to war without Level 4 body armour, in unarmoured vehicles,who were often killed by IED's........they believed in their cause fighting against communism............jump forward 60 years......what's the difference in the cause and beliefs?

[eucalyptus]

who were often killed by IED's.
Ive read about that in the book "Stalingrad" how Russians when abandon their HQ leave it boobie trapped and the explosive would go off after a day even weeks. When they know that most certanly germans would use them.

[towelie]

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4884/fig4germanwaffensscavalry4thss.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/8628/fig5germanwaffensscavalryriver.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/1619/image1l59mq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/3806/image5o30ms.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/1615/image92o5er.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/5796/image93o7ta.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/7906/imagecnp5qc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/6610/imagehvp9ln.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/6713/imagej8c8ez.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5699/imagejkh4ml.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/73/imagejq48ye.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7462/imagerdt1al.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/601/waffensim8gl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Big Lebowski]

forming of Frikorps Danmark june 1941

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/frikorps_danmark__2_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/frikorps_danmark__3_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/frikorps_danmark__6_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/frikorps_danmark__5_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/frikorps_danmark__7_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)
taking oath

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/frikorps_danmark__9_1.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v181/fisso/ww2/?)

[abhor]

Most of the units of six german divisions was encircled yes, by the time of the encirclement they were already exhausted and weakened - and could only be supplied by air. The russians pressed in on them with 15 divisions of fresh troops and an assortment of armor and ski battalions. The most supplies delivered in one day was 286 tons on Feb. 23. For six divisions. Later, it was only half the minimum required. The nucleus of the encircled german forces were the SSTK - and the documents exist to show that the other german units in the pocket desperately requested assistance by the SSTK when the lines were on the verge of collapsing. When they finally broke out on april 20, it was an SSTK batallion who broke through the final russian defensive line.

After the battle, Hitler awarded Eicke the oak leaves, and 11 other SSTK men the knights cross - the most given to any SS division in such a short time, during the entire war. Hitler also stated that he considered the SSTK the main reason the pocket had held out the entire winter, and then broke out.

The SSTK suffered a total of 6674 dead, wounded, missing or sick between jan-april. After beginning the campaign in Russia with 17 265 men. By may they were still in action by Lake Ilmen, and were down to 6700 men when they were withdrawn and rebuildt.

You support your claims well but with so many differing acounts weather it be first person or historian it is hard to make heads or tails of what really went on. And as for the medals and what hitler said about the sstk being the reason that the pocket held out so long it was never unusual for the ss to take more credit then the other divisions as everyone knows they were hitlers prized soldiers. so what it comes down to is you can argue either way with a lot of historical data but its hard to know for sure if it was the sstk that decided the battle. On that note i will most likely look into it in more detail because im pretty sure that the sstk was lacking ablility but you seem to know quite a bit more then i do about the nuances of the sstk. So if you have any recommended readings i would like to check them out.

[Wodan]

Yes, gorgeous uniforms, beautiful camouflages, lovely haircuts and oh so nice blue eyes....in the service of pure evil.

How funny it's only people who live in places that never had to feel the depravation and horror of the SS rule who think those murderers were anything but the lowest form of uniformed lives.



Wrong, I life in such a place(germany), and think have great respect towards those heros!

[Johnny_H]

No, I think that was totally called for. We are talking Nazi troops here. Not German troops, Nazi troops.

People can reenact Wehrmacht as much as they like, it doesn't bother me, even though Wehrmacht units or soldiers did commit some war crimes.

But the SS, Himmler's pet organization that was meant to embody the Third Reich's racial theories ? The SS, which encompassed such civilization highlights like the Gestapo, the SD, and the Totenkopf concentration and extermination camp administration ? Sorry, but no, no sympathy, even though one can rightfully underline that the Waffen-SS were not guarding Dachau. Their brothers-in-arms were, and that is disturbing enough for me.

Sorry if some members feel like I'm raining on their parade here, guys, but while I'm sure the Waffen-SS troops were one hell of a fighting unit, I find it hard to put aside little facts such as Oradour sur Glane or Lidice, or Krakow, and countless others.

As you said, Kit, the Waffen-SS were political soldiers, and I don't think we're doing anyone a favor by glorifying their militray prowess while at the same time conveniently forgetting which political future they had chosen to fight for.

This being said, I won't spoil anyone's fun anymore on this thread, so whoever wants to talk about it, feel free to PM me.
I think if you read more about the subject, that is not really the entire truth in B&W. Read about the 6th SS Nord Division they had a very clean slate, as did a few other regiments and divisions. There were plenty of Divisions that did commit war crimes, and were subsequently punished for it after the war.

But branding all men of the Waffen SS criminals is not the way to understand nor educate yourself on the matter, its easy to just brand the SS runes as the root of all evil that they were all political and ideolgical monsters that killed with no sort of humanity to speak of but this isnt the case bro, that infact the Heer have also a tarnished record there was really no specific branch of the Wermacht or the Waffen SS for that matter that didnt have a "Black Mark" on thier record, furthermore the allies also face this stigma.

Maj.General Harry Foster of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division once remarked ( In referance to Kurt "Panzer" Meyer CEO of the 12SS HJ Division charged with the killing of Canadian POW's in the Falaise Pocket"

The Following is a excerpt from "The Meeting of Generals : Tony Foster"
( Tony is Harry fosters son the author of the book )
I was visiting my father over christmas holidays when word of Meyer's passing arrived. The Radios and Newspapers called the house and were given a brusque "No Comment". Later that evening I asked him to to tell me of his battles against Meyer's 12th SS division, the courtmartial and the death sentence. I asked if there was any doubt in his mind of Meyer's guilt.

"Not the slightest" he replied "He was just as guilty of murder as I was at the time and any serving line officer during a battle. The differance between us and him is we were on the winning side and that always makes a differance.

Had the courtmartial been a shame then? Vindicitiveness by the victor over the vanquished?
My father sighed and sipped his port reflectively. "I don't believe that Meyer pulled the trigger on his captives or gave orders to execute any of them. But I am sure he knew what happend. SS discipline was such that he couldn't help but know. But does that make him guilty of murder anymore then I am guilty for knowing about the German prisoners my troops killed?

"They when did you Convict him?" (Maj.Gen Harry foster was the Judge presiding over Meyers war crimes case)
"Because I had no choice according to those rules of warfare, dreat up by a bunch of bloody barrackroom laywers who never heard a shot fired in anger. IN wartime a commanding officer is responcible for he actions of his men".

"But that's absurd?" ( tony )
"It's also military justice"
"Then where is the truth ? "
"Ah!" He nodded as if the question had troubled him too."I suppose in the final analysis it lies in the conscience of the victor"

Twenty years after that conversation I wrote a letter to Frau Kathe Meyer in Hagen, West Germany. I told her I was seeking the truth. From Frau Meyer, her daughters, her son Kurt who visited me in Halifax, and from scores of officeers and men of the Waffen SS and the Canadian Army, I learned that there are two sides to every story. I leave the matter of truth to the conscience of the reader.

If you read that I thank you, the 12SS Hitlerjugend division was seen as the most fanatical, and crazed bunch of Nazi's that the allies ran up against, yet for all intents and purposes they seem to of just been grenadiers who held against impossible odds. Furthermore there was a case of Kurt Meyer handing out a Death Sentence to one of his grenadiers documented in both books and his trial that he had one of his own men shot for the rape of a French woman. This was done in the company of a great deal of the township and the local french pastor.

Does that sound like the actions of a fantical nazi? who embodied the racial and ideological principles of Heinrich Himmlers madness? or Hitlers for that matter? Sounds more like soldiers put in a impossible situation, and the actions of a few determined the fate of thousends. Such is allot of cases in the second world war which are not limited to and only including the Waffen SS.

Peace


I have a vague feeling Argyll knows what I am talking about,( PM me Argyll, I have some suggestions book wise, and ide like to know if you have any suggestions yourself if you get the time ) but for the others who would label me a nazi apologist or sympathiser, I will kill that right now, I just happend to read about the subject and wish to dispel the fact from fiction.

[Johnny_H]

Einsatzkommandos were not members of the Waffen SS.




I am not saying that the Waffen SS were not without Guilt, and they were by association and in some cases participation of war crimes, and very brutal and grim crimes against humanity. However as an organisation the WAFFEN SS was a Combat Organisation. There were those of the Totenkoph that were recycled from death camps that they make only a small percentage, the Das Reich Division also were a part of war crimes as well as a good few of Waffen SS and yes HEER formations.

So taking vague pictures with no specific referances to fuel an argument that Im sure you're not even sure of is not going to convince anyone that you hold a point we dont and havent already acknoweleged already.

Try to be a little more specific one of your pics specifically says "Exekutions Kommando's" and others are so vague and blurred you cannot make out anything, infact you didnt even referance where you got those pics