Irgun: Acre prison break

[ibstolidude]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Acre.html

I ran across this elsewhere and figured others may appreciate it.

[Argyll]

Good read!!.....

[ex1cdo]

Good read!!.....

I don't think you would comment favourably on the deplorable actions of Hamas or al Queda, would you? Irgun, and the Stern Gang, were every bit as much terrorists. Some examples:

Bombing of the King David Hotel, Jerusalem, 22 July 1946. 91 people killed: 28 Britons, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews and 5 others.

Raid on the British Officers Club, Jerusalem, 1 March 1947. 17 British officers killed, 27 injured.

British Sergeants Martin and Paice. kidnapped and hanged in retaliation for executions of terrorists who had been captured in the Acre Prison raid.

[ibstolidude]

I don't think you would comment favourably on the deplorable actions of Hamas or al Queda, would you? Irgun, and the Stern Gang, were every bit as much terrorists. Some examples:


They were!!! I had no idea, I was reading on their history and their g-tactics because I thought they invented the first cotton candy machine......

And it is a "good read," no different then when I have read detailed accounts of/by the Taliban, the Iraqi insurgents or other forces, against which we have been employed.

Terrorists look to historical models for proven examples of success; only a fool would knowingly limit themselves from examining such "good reads" or worse use examples that are not "good reads" because they are limited in scope and perspective.

Should we also not take the time to read Qutb, Ibn Taimiyah, or even Zawahiri's "Knights...." They all make for "good reads" for understanding the current trends in radical political Islam?


Perhaps, the real problem you have is Argyll's pro-US and anti-UK attitude!

[James]

Veddy interesting read.

[Royal]

Perhaps, the real problem you have is Argyll's pro-US and anti-UK attitude!

Oooowwww :)

[Argyll]

I don't think you would comment favourably on the deplorable actions of Hamas or al Queda, would you? Irgun, and the Stern Gang, were every bit as much terrorists. Some examples:

Bombing of the King David Hotel, Jerusalem, 22 July 1946. 91 people killed: 28 Britons, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews and 5 others.

Raid on the British Officers Club, Jerusalem, 1 March 1947. 17 British officers killed, 27 injured.

British Sergeants Martin and Paice. kidnapped and hanged in retaliation for executions of terrorists who had been captured in the Acre Prison raid.


What part of it was a good read don't you comprehend?.....you think I don't consider articles of historical fact interesting?

[ex1cdo]

What part of it was a good read don't you comprehend?.....you think I don't consider articles of historical fact interesting?

I'm just trying to keep things in perspective for those who read things like this on mp.net that may be unaware of the history of the Irgun.

Perhaps what I should have said was something along the lines of "A very interesting article outlining how a terrorist organization undertook a successful military action against regular forces".

I seem to have offended the sensibilities of a bunch of mods, for which I am greatly sorry.

For a very, very short time.

[ex1cdo]

Oooowwww :)


Didn't hurt me any, I'm not a Brit. Besides, there's been plenty of bickering amongst the English speaking anglo-saxon peoples over the years.

[ibstolidude]

haha - maybe I can start some good rumors.

I'm just trying to keep things in perspective for those who read things like this on mp.net that may be unaware of the history of the Irgun

then feel free to post their history, I'd be surprised if someone doesn't challenge what ever you choose to post. It may proove interesting.

But this is/was a good read.

[GrimReaper]

I don't think you would comment favourably on the deplorable actions of Hamas or al Queda, would you? Irgun, and the Stern Gang, were every bit as much terrorists. Some examples:

Bombing of the King David Hotel, Jerusalem, 22 July 1946. 91 people killed: 28 Britons, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews and 5 others. Top military HQ in Israel

Raid on the British Officers Club, Jerusalem, 1 March 1947. 17 British officers killed, 27 injured. Military target

British Sergeants Martin and Paice. kidnapped and hanged in retaliation for executions of terrorists who had been captured in the Acre Prison raid.executing POWs results in the same measuers.
By the way, the name of this groups was the ETZEL, Irgun Tzvai Leumi - National military organization.

[ex1cdo]

By the way, the name of this groups was the ETZEL, Irgun Tzvai Leumi - National military organization.


By your logic, then, it is legitimate for Hamas or Hezbollah to target Israeli military targets?

[GrimReaper]

Argyll asked this before and got the same answer from most Israelies here. if they would target only military objectives as their as targets then yes, no rational Israeli ( who at least serves in the IDF) will call them terrorists. Thats the difference between terror and valid guerilla. Ofcourse they still have to follow the rules of war,but even if they don't do it to the fullest they could be called legal combatants.
Hizballah has targeted civilian targets almost at the same ratio as it has military ones,and as to hamas there isn't even a discussion.

If you judge the Hagana,Etzel and Lehi as terror organizatons by their actions against arabs, we may have a discussion,even though you seem to fail to understand that the case in pre '48 palestine was a defacto civil war. however being called terrorists, solely due to their actions against british soldiers,HQs and bases is absured. This doesn't mean I condone the way the acted btw, most of it I don't and wouldn't have done myself.

[Royal]

By your logic, then, it is legitimate for Hamas or Hezbollah to target Israeli military targets?

When did he say that the Irgun were a legitimate military organisation?

[ex1cdo]

When did he say that the Irgun were a legitimate military organisation?

He didn't explicitly state that, but lends legitimacy to their actions by claiming these were military targets.

During the second world war, resistance groups doing the same thing were considered heroes by the allies, but criminals by the occupying power. So it is all a matter of perspective, isn't it? Britain was governing the Mandate until the transition to a secular state named Israel. Some people wanted to expedite this and performed acts that were judged as terrorist acts by Britain to encourage the process.

Is this not exactly what is going on in Iraq right now? Call them what you will, insurgents, terrorists, bandits, whatever. They target what they consider military targets: Iraqi forces, police, and coalition troops. In their mind they are fighting against a foreign occupying power and local support therof. Doesn't this sound like what was going on in the Palestine Mandate prior to the establishment of the modern nation state of Israel in 1948? The notable exception, of course, is the targetting of civilians by suicide bombing in Iraq and the collateral damage (how I love that phrase dreamed up by some Pentagon spin-doctor) to civilians when military targets are attacked.

How about the IRA? Was what they did in Northern Ireland legitimate because they mainly engaged British military targets and the RUC?

To keep the record straight, I have no time for the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah, or any other terrorist organization. I find their philosophies and how then attempt to attain their goals to be repugnant and criminal.

It's the old problem. As someone once said, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. It's an argument that nobody is ever going to win.

[ex1cdo]

If you judge the Hagana,Etzel and Lehi as terror organizatons by their actions against arabs, we may have a discussion,even though you seem to fail to understand that the case in pre '48 palestine was a defacto civil war. however being called terrorists, solely due to their actions against british soldiers,HQs and bases is absured. This doesn't mean I condone the way the acted btw, most of it I don't and wouldn't have done myself.

Are the insurgents (or whatever you wish to call them) in Iraq terrorists? Or not, as they primarily engage military and police forces?

[Palmach]

I think that a terrorist organization is defined by it involvement in terrorism, which in turn has been defined as willful and deliberate attack on civilian targets and civilian governmental institutions and personal with an explicit aim bringing about political changes. The latter part has to be somewhat amended in todays world of religious terrorism, but by and large this is an adequet measuring stick.

[GrimReaper]

It's a bit problematic, as I don't know all the details and all the groups, but I think in the Iraq situation there are three levels I need to analyse.
First,If the groups in Iraq target only US/foreign troops and do their best to not hurt civilians, then they are not terrorists but vaild resistance. However I understand that's not the case as they don't plan in regards to civic lives.

The second issue is whether they target their own country military/police forces which I understand are there after valid elections. So in this case the Iraqi elected goverment has a right to classifiy them criminals/terrorists but it can also be consider a civil war/uprising and I would rather describe them rebels as long as its only Iraqi military/police.

Last and the most important, if they target any unarmed civilians on purpose, they are terrorist without a doubt.

I agree very much with your point on partisans during the war.

[Royal]

Are the insurgents (or whatever you wish to call them) in Iraq terrorists? Or not, as they primarily engage military and police forces?

Check your facts. The vast majority of vicitims of insurgent action in Iraq have been civilian. The military casualty figures pale into insignificance in comparison.

[Macabi]

I don't support of all of the Irguns actions. I don't want to comment on them being terrorists or not. I don't intend on a flame-war either, but I just want you to know, that some members of the Irgun and other similar Jewish organisations were holocaust survivors. To them and me the British in Palestine were bad, and I think they had a damn good reason to resist the British there.

Anyway tnx for the good post:)

p.s. What a mastermind escape that was.

[Palmach]

I just want you to know, that some members of the Irgun and other similar Jewish organisations were holocaust survivors. To them and me the British in Palestine were bad, and I think they had a damn good reason to resist the British there.

It gets even more interesting. For instance: in 1939 (or was it 40?) Irgun has declared unilateral cease-fire and the leadership of organization has declared full support for the British war effort, which was warmly received. Numerous members of Irun have joined the British army in various capacities, they were especially prominent in the Jewish Brigade. The degree of cooperation between the Crown and Irgun at the time can be illustrated by following examples:

Military commander of Irgun David Rasiel was killed in Iraq while on diversion and reconnaissance mission for the the British Army in 1941.

One of the Irgun fighters who participated in the Arce break was a former decorated British Commando.