Air Assault Operations?

[Noble713]

Are large-scale/operational-level air assault operations still considered a worthwhile endeavor in full-on conventional conflicts, (I doubt they would be necessary in COIN)? I've somewhat got the impression that they are rarely if ever executed. After all, how many has the 101st done in the past 2 gulf wars?

If they are considered passé, why? Is it an issue of having enough functioning helis available, coordination, risk/vulnerability of the force, what? I ask because I'm trying to design a military from scratch (long story) and I'm debating whether or not they should have formations capable of battalion, brigade, or division-sized air assaults. I figure that if you need to deploy and retrieve infantry quickly across a large area, onto almost any terrain, helicopters may be your best bet.

Why would you need to do this with such a large force, you ask? Perhaps they could be the "fire brigade" for that AO. With helis they have the mobility to redeploy almost anywhere very quickly, and the attack helis ensure that they bring plenty of firepower to bear. Perhaps the commander wants to conduct a massive deep penetration raid, where you lack the forces to advance and relieve them like you would with airborne troops. Dropping 3 brigades of infantry and attack aviation into someone's rear areas and then bugging out after a few hours is bound to throw the enemy into chaos.

Thoughts?

Also, am I going about this the wrong way? Maybe I should work from the top down instead, defining their strategic situation and goals, economic and technological capabilities, etc. first, before jumping into the nitty-gritty of "How many motorized infantry brigades? What about airborne troops? Model the whole military after Marine Expeditionary Forces?".....

[ironcross6]

the history of combat organization is an ever increasing dispersal of forces across terrain. if you look in the napoleonic wars it took a army to manuver, civil war a corps, in WW2 a division, and now it seems to be down to a brigade.

the army had thought of this long before OIF but didnt fully commit. now the division is more of a admin function and commits forces as brigades. i think that the rational is solid and follows the trend.

[mattmayhem]

Read your history books the 101st did a HUGE air assault into Iraq during the 1st Gulf war.

[DnA]

In August, 1990 the Iraqi Army invaded Kuwait. The US responded by deploying troops to Saudi Arabia. with one the first units to deploy being the 101st. The division fired the first shots of "Desert Storm" by taking out Iraqi radar sites on 17 January 1991. After the ground war began, the 101st was ordered to go deep into Iraq and set up a base of operations for further attacks. During the ground war phase of "Desert Storm," the 101st made the longest and largest Air Assault in history. More than 2,000 men, 50 transport vehicles, artillery, and tons of fuel and ammunition were airlifted 50 miles into Iraq. Units from the division Air Assaulted into Iraq and set up Forward Operation Base Cobra. Land vehicles took another 2,000 troops into Iraqi territory west of Kuwait to allow U.S. Armored Forces unrestricted access to Iraq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:101st_Airborne_Division

[ironcross6]

nowhere did i deny the GW1 air assualt and i am well aware of it apparantly more so than you see below. i and noble713 spoke to trends. the overwhelming trend in the US military has been to brigade commitments either in air assualt or mechanized or light infantry.

look at the ops in GW2: the 173 brigade jumped. look at Op Anaconda: it was a composite brigade size force that air assaulted into the Shah-i-kot valley. these could be exceptions due to force cap imposed from above.

it is pretty safe to say the trend is away from the division to independently committed brigades be they airborne, air assualt, or mech.


In August, 1990 the Iraqi Army invaded Kuwait. The US responded by deploying troops to Saudi Arabia. with one the first units to deploy being the 101st. The division fired the first shots of "Desert Storm" by taking out Iraqi radar sites on 17 January 1991. After the ground war began, the 101st was ordered to go deep into Iraq and set up a base of operations for further attacks. During the ground war phase of "Desert Storm," the 101st made the longest and largest Air Assault in history. More than 2,000 men, 50 transport vehicles, artillery, and tons of fuel and ammunition were airlifted 50 miles into Iraq. Units from the division Air Assaulted into Iraq and set up Forward Operation Base Cobra. Land vehicles took another 2,000 troops into Iraqi territory west of Kuwait to allow U.S. Armored Forces unrestricted access to Iraq

FYI: 2000 trigger pullers does not a division make DNA. before you tell me to hit the history books you should learn your TO&E, that is a brigade size unit. the GW1 mission WAS a brigade size operation. they brought the rest of the division in by motor transport. even the 101st doesnt have enough lift capability to send in 3 brigades simultaneously.

[Mastermind]

I participated in huge air assault operations in training, jumping during Operations Golden Arrow in Germany and another operation of unbelievable proportions in Spain in 1967. We had so many C-130's they flew over two drop zones in flights of three with about one minute between for more than an hour continuous. We dropped thousands of men (the spanish jumped with us from C-47's of WWII vintage and using old T-7 'chutes). Anyway...in my opinion, considering the potential for massive casualties from ground-to-air AA arty, I doubt any modern military commander would condiser a large scale operation in Air Drop operation. However, Air Assault, Helicopter Assault is another fish, indeed. I think the rapid and massive low altitude invasion by thousands of Heliborne troops is a very viable type operation in both strategic and tactical operations. Suddenly planting huge numbers of well supplied forces in mass on enemy flanks and in their rear areas or in "denial" positions can so destabilize an opponet, they might completely abandon pre determined defensive or even offensive operations. If you can make your opponent behave eratically, you have him off balance and on the defensive immediately (Isn't this what Blitzkrieg warfare is all about?).Air Assault nearly nullifies any kind of static defenses (as Saddam so quickly learned in both of his encounters). Also, think of the problems potential enemy forces have just knowing you have large divisions of both Airborne and Air Assault types available to your planners. No opponent can think of an operation without deploying huge reserve rear area defenses. On that basis alone, I would include my "Air Mobile" types in at least division strength.

[joshfox0]

Wow that sounds one hell of an exercise Mastermind! do you remember the name of it as i'd love to see any pictures of it?

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

I participated in huge air assault operations in training, jumping during Operations Golden Arrow in Germany and another operation of unbelievable proportions in Spain in 1967. We had so many C-130's they flew over two drop zones in flights of three with about one minute between for more than an hour continuous. We dropped thousands of men (the spanish jumped with us from C-47's of WWII vintage and using old T-7 'chutes). Anyway...in my opinion, considering the potential for massive casualties from ground-to-air AA arty, I doubt any modern military commander would condiser a large scale operation in Air Drop operation. However, Air Assault, Helicopter Assault is another fish, indeed. I think the rapid and massive low altitude invasion by thousands of Heliborne troops is a very viable type operation in both strategic and tactical operations. Suddenly planting huge numbers of well supplied forces in mass on enemy flanks and in their rear areas or in "denial" positions can so destabilize an opponet, they might completely abandon pre determined defensive or even offensive operations. If you can make your opponent behave eratically, you have him off balance and on the defensive immediately (Isn't this what Blitzkrieg warfare is all about?).Air Assault nearly nullifies any kind of static defenses (as Saddam so quickly learned in both of his encounters). Also, think of the problems potential enemy forces have just knowing you have large divisions of both Airborne and Air Assault types available to your planners. No opponent can think of an operation without deploying huge reserve rear area defenses. On that basis alone, I would include my "Air Mobile" types in at least division strength.

operations?you mean excercises

[Mastermind]

Indeed, "Exercises"...that is not jumping into actual combat situations...But, Airborne Exercises of a gigantic scale. That's why I clarified..."in training" in my post. Thanks for the point of accuracy. The first operation in 1966 was "Operation Golden Eagle" and I do not recall the name of the Spanish exercise in summer of 1967. Itwas, no doubt, a NATO exercise, since we jumped with Spanish, British and German Airborne troops.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

Indeed, "Exercises"...that is not jumping into actual combat situations...But, Airborne Exercises of a gigantic scale. That's why I clarified..."in training" in my post. Thanks for the point of accuracy. The first operation in 1966 was "Operation Golden Eagle" and I do not recall the name of the Spanish exercise in summer of 1967. Itwas, no doubt, a NATO exercise, since we jumped with Spanish, British and German Airborne troops.

i was about to re read my history books ref ops happening in spain,didnt mean to nit pick.

[Mastermind]

I had to go out in my old trunk and get the copy of my unit news paper to make sure I was right...It was "Exercise Southern Arrow" and the paper is dated 21 May 1966 so the Exercise took place in the spring, not summer. Please give me a bit of leeway, I'm much older now....that was really a long time ago. I'm about as far away from that time now as Civil war veterans were from their service when the Wright Brothers flew at Kittyhawk.3154 this is a quickie photo but it gets the idea of how old that paper is.

[Mastermind]

I'm not very good at this, as you guys can see...but here is another try

ASt least you can read the headline....and see a bit of the line at the riggers stations.

[RGRBOX]

Wow that sounds one hell of an exercise Mastermind! do you remember the name of it as i'd love to see any pictures of it?

It was called "Operation Market Garden" Mastermind was born from a parachute...rofl

I had to do it Mastermind... i just couldn't resist...

Mastermind was jumping out of airplanes before I was born...

What all units did you serve in Mastermind?

[Hellfish6]

Didn't know the 8th ID had airborne elements.

[Noble713]

So basically, yes there is still a place for large Air Assault ops. I think Mastermind brought up most of the considerations I had in mind for their use.

We've mentioned that divisions are becoming little more than co-ordinating HQs with brigades as the real maneuver elements. Would it be better to put multiple Air Assault brigades under a single headquarters, co-ordinating their use across the entire theater, or have HQs with a mix of brigades (i.e. divisions with 2 Mech. BDE, 1 Motorized BDE., and an Air Assault BDE). I think the latter would complicate logistics, but put assets directly under the control of the commander making use of them, and therefore remove the need for cross-unit co-ordination.

[RGRBOX]

Isn't the UK 16th AA Bde like this... a mix of different elements under one flag..

[USMA_SCUBA]

Even if you're just talking about a BDE Air Assault, thats a whole crap load of fire pissers showing up at one place. Outside the 101, alot of us train to do air movements. Meaning that UH-60s or CH-47s are moving troops into position without necessarily having the Kiowas and Apaches supporting you to make it a full on air assault. Check out the Air Asssault FM. It explains the difference between the two better than I can right now. Hope that helps some.

[DnA]

FYI: 2000 trigger pullers does not a division make DNA. before you tell me to hit the history books you should learn your TO&E, that is a brigade size unit. the GW1 mission WAS a brigade size operation. they brought the rest of the division in by motor transport. even the 101st doesnt have enough lift capability to send in 3 brigades simultaneously.

Um... mattmayhem told you to look at the history books.


I just posted info on the event he was reffering too, an nowhere did I say it was a Division size Air Assualt Operation.

[RGRBOX]

So what is the TO&E of Aviation assests for the 101st...

Oh and by the way, I was checking out some pics on the US Army Web Site last night, and they had one of Iraqi troops loading up on a bird, with some 101st troops guiding them on... they caption read that they were Paratrooper from the 101st... I was thinking that maybe they were from the Pathfinder Company or LRS Company... but the term Paratrooper for the 101st... isn't that a little wrong... I believe it was 3/327th... the unit... but the pic showed a trooper with a Different helment. and he wasn't wearing a 101 patch on his shoulder like the other men in the pic.. but a letter number combo patch...

[AOCBravo2004]

So what is the TO&E of Aviation assests for the 101st...

Oh and by the way, I was checking out some pics on the US Army Web Site last night, and they had one of Iraqi troops loading up on a bird, with some 101st troops guiding them on... they caption read that they were Paratrooper from the 101st... I was thinking that maybe they were from the Pathfinder Company or LRS Company... but the term Paratrooper for the 101st... isn't that a little wrong... I believe it was 3/327th... the unit... but the pic showed a trooper with a Different helment. and he wasn't wearing a 101 patch on his shoulder like the other men in the pic.. but a letter number combo patch...

Don't forget it's a media caption, who knows, maybe the writer of the caption only knows the 101st from what he saw in Band of Brothers and he just instantly stuck the paratrooper tag on anyone in the 101st Air Assault Division.

[RGRBOX]

Don't forget it's a media caption, who knows, maybe the writer of the caption only knows the 101st from what he saw in Band of Brothers and he just instantly stuck the paratrooper tag on anyone in the 101st Air Assault Division.

ISn't there someone who works on that web site really in the fvcking army... ??? little strange... it being the official army web site and all..

[DnA]

Didn't know the 8th ID had airborne elements.


The 509th is the Airborne Regiment of the 8th Infantry. They also ran their own Jump School in Germany aswell, atleast they did in the '60s.