Russia moves S-300 AA Missiles to Belarus...

[HELEX]

...as a reaction to the future NATO Membership of the baltic States and recent AWACS activity in this Area. Russia fears the loss of Kaliningrad.

http://www.n-tv.de/5220169.html

[mustamato]

My german is quite crappy but doesn´t the article say that they have donated
(more) used S-300´s to Belorussia to "strenghten the western border against
NATO".

[Kitsune]

Yeah, its says that rusia gave an "undefined number" of Surface to Air missiles to Belarus as military help. This systems (old but capable to be part of a air defense network, if they are modernized) are to be installed at the western border of Belarus (former western border of the Soviet Union) within half a year.

Let them. See it as a showing of teeth to prevent loss of face.

NATO does not intend to attack them anyway.

[-Max2-]

Stupid reaction from Russia... :roll:

They still didnt understand that the Cold War is over since 15 years ? NATO is no longer an enemy....

[mustamato]

Probably better to donate the SAM´s to a ally with a Russian-friendly dictator
than to left them to rust because you can´t afford to train with them.

[Russian Texan]

Stupid reaction from Russia... :roll:

They still didnt understand that the Cold War is over since 15 years ? NATO is no longer an enemy....

Based on a comments that I have seen on this board, including yours, NATO members are the one who need to realise that Cold War is over...
The truth is that you guys are still afraid and would like for Russia to disappear, sorry not gonna happen ;)
Btw, what is the purpose of NATO nowdays anyways?

[mack pl]

Cold War is over :cantbeli:

[Russian Texan]

Cold War is over :cantbeli:

Really?

[mack pl]

Russian sarcasm and Polish humor-i love it ;)

[Russian Texan]

Russian sarcasm and Polish humor-i love it ;)

May be afterall we can work together... :)

[-Max2-]

Based on a comments that I have seen on this board, including yours, NATO members are the one who need to realise that Cold War is over...

Care to explain ?


The truth is that you guys are still afraid and would like for Russia to disappear, sorry not gonna happen

Afraid of Russia ? :roll: I dont think so...

The Russian Army is only the shadow of itself, and my only fear of Russia now, is a possible accidental launch of an Russian ICBM due to bad maintenance. Thats all...


Btw, what is the purpose of NATO nowdays anyways?

Remember Kosovo in 99 ? And NATO forces are now in Afghanistan, and maybe soon in Iraq. So yes, NATO has still an utility...

[Tengu]

The truth is that you guys are still afraid and would like for Russia to disappear, sorry not gonna happen ;)
Btw, what is the purpose of NATO nowdays anyways?As a european i can say that we are certainly NOT afraid of russia :lol: . The cold war is over and the sovjet union collapsed woot .
And nato still is usefull in conflicts like kosovo, afghanistan,... And lets not forget N korea or china.

[mustamato]

my only fear of Russia now, is a possible accidental launch of an Russian ICBM due to bad maintenance. Thats all...

So true. Some cables that had to be changed on a ICBM but some dude inspecting
them was bribed with a bottle of vodka to sell them on the black market instead. The
risk that Putin would order a nuclear attack is 0%, but a accident can happen.

http://www.dykkersentret.no/turer/bilder/murmansk_2.jpg
Russian navy in Murmansk, the area in the world with most nuclear
power, and the Russians take care of it like this, it makes you scared

[Russian Texan]

Care to explain ?
Not really...

Afraid of Russia ? :roll: I dont think so...
I do, it is not an "open" fear but rather a "subliminal" one: you are living next door to a big guy, don't understand him and don't know what he is going to do next...

The Russian Army is only the shadow of itself, and my only fear of Russia now, is a possible accidental launch of an Russian ICBM due to bad maintenance. Thats all...
Still counts as fear though ;)
Thrue, Russian military is not exactly USSR's military but given their hardware, experience and mentality...
US Russia China

Remember Kosovo in 99 ? And NATO forces are now in Afghanistan, and maybe soon in Iraq. So yes, NATO has still an utility...
US carried/carries the heaviest burden by far...

I still don't get it: USSR is no longer... you guys are not afraid of Russia, so whats the point?

[Russian Texan]

So true. Some cables that had to be changed on a ICBM but some dude inspecting
them was bribed with a bottle of vodka to sell them on the black market instead.
Source? or is it just your usual BS?

http://www.dykkersentret.no/turer/bilder/murmansk_2.jpg
Russian navy in Murmansk, the area in the world with most nuclear
power, and the Russians take care of it like this, it makes you scared[/quote]

What does the old WWII line ship at the navy junk yard has to do with this argument?
Mustamato, when are you going to post your picture?

[wholagun]

I think that if Russia sold its nuclear stuff to the black market nad someone used it or if something got leaked out and made major headway in international press agencies that Putin would be pissed, he'd never let such a thing happen, why cause it looks bad. One reason why I like Putin is he's tough and not lax on this kind of ****. It one or two nuckes go missing its the fault of the person getting bribed and not the governments.

[tooms]

I do, it is not an "open" fear but rather a "subliminal" one: you are living next door to a big guy, don't understand him and don't know what he is going to do next...


Still counts as fear though ;)
Thrue, Russian military is not exactly USSR's military but given their hardware, experience and mentality...
US Russia China





i think, YOU want europeans be scared by current Russia, but i say you like the others here, this country is not enough dangerous to be feared.
russian army is not a giant anymore.

maybe you are a little disappointed because of your nationalism ;)

[Russian Texan]

russian army is not a giant anymore.
So?

maybe you are a little disappointed because of your nationalism ;)
Quite contrary, I think Europeans are disappointed because no one takes them seriously ;)

[tooms]

russian army is not a giant anymore.
So?
it's clear, have they enough material working to attack europe? seriously

maybe you are a little disappointed because of your nationalism ;)
Quite contrary, I think Europeans are disappointed because no one takes them seriously ;)

do you want to compare europe and russia on " which of the both has most inflence in the world" ?

[Russian Texan]

it's clear, have they enough material working to attack europe? seriously
Why would Russia attack Europe?
And if one to reverse the question: Do you think Europe has enough resources to attack Russia?

do you want to compare europe and russia on " which of the both has most inflence in the world" ?
Why, it makes no sence.
Sure Europe can influence the world but Russia can "end" the world ;)

The thing is that Europe will always be dependent on other countries due to the lack of natural resources while Russia can make it on her own, and that is what makes the difference...

[tooms]

i
And if one to reverse the question: Do you think Europe has enough resources to attack Russia?

no

do you want to compare europe and russia on " which of the both has most inflence in the world" ?
Why, it makes no sence.
Sure Europe can influence the world but Russia can "end" the world ;)

if they have enough useful missiles ;), and for how many years ? because they are asking the international community and the funny europeans money to dismantle them ;)

The thing is that Europe will always be dependent on other countries due to the lack of natural resources while Russia can make it on her own, and that is what makes the difference...

and without natural resources ? because they don't have them for the eternity. what will they do ? Europe has natural resources in north fo europe or doesn't has problem to pay them.
it's maybe the last century with oil, it will be the race to develop technologies to replace it ;)

[wholagun]

The thing is that Europe will always be dependent on other countries due to the lack of natural resources while Russia can make it on her own, and that is what makes the difference...


If you look at European trade as in the EU you will notice most the trade is internal, Europe in fact is pretty self sufficient in trade bulk of the trade in done within the EU. EU may not have the resources but the rest of the world doesn't have the know how and equipment to tapp them either.
Besides as was mentioned earlier if Europe runs out of oil or gas they will develop tech around that. EU is the biggest producer of re-useable engery sources in the world.

[Russian Texan]

if they have enough useful missiles
Well, I am sure that out of 25,000 various types of nuclear warheads some have to work ;)

, and for how many years ?
Cosidering that Russia every year fields atleast 10 new Topol Ms and plans to increase the number... ;)

because they are asking the international community and the funny europeans money to dismantle them.
You see, that is where you are wrong: International community is offering Russia money to dismantle its missiles and dispose of other WMD.
I mean if you guys don't want to pay for it - fine, there are plenty of countries in the world who would love to get this problem of Russia's hands ;)
So please, stop kidding yourselfs - you are simply paying off to Russia so nothing happens to your "civilized world"...

and without natural resources ? because they don't have them for the eternity. what will they do ?
Well, last time I checked Russia's natural resources were going to last longer then everyone elses ;)

Europe has natural resources in north fo europe
Yeah sure, but how much? What about strategic materials like titanium, aluminium, etc?

or doesn't has problem to pay them.
But what if no one wants to sell them to you? What about when they become scarce and price becomes forbiding...?

You can't build airplanes with paper euros and you can't build tanks out of euro coins, computers and other electronics also need gold and platinum...

[Russian Texan]

Europe runs out of oil or gas they will develop tech around that. EU is the biggest producer of re-useable engery sources in the world.

So please explain me then why do europeans pay $5 for a gallon of gas, why not to use "re-usable energy sources"?
Would you please also post the picture of that Airbus that is powere by solar batteries...

[perdurabo]

if they have enough useful missiles
Well, I am sure that out of 25,000 various types of nuclear warheads some have to work ;)

, and for how many years ?
Cosidering that Russia every year fields atleast 10 new Topol Ms and plans to increase the number... ;)

because they are asking the international community and the funny europeans money to dismantle them.
You see, that is where you are wrong: International community is offering Russia money to dismantle its missiles and dispose of other WMD.
I mean if you guys don't want to pay for it - fine, there are plenty of countries in the world who would love to get this problem of Russia's hands ;)
So please, stop kidding yourselfs - you are simply paying off to Russia so nothing happens to your "civilized world"...

and without natural resources ? because they don't have them for the eternity. what will they do ?
Well, last time I checked Russia's natural resources were going to last longer then everyone elses ;)

Europe has natural resources in north fo europe
Yeah sure, but how much? What about strategic materials like titanium, aluminium, etc?

or doesn't has problem to pay them.
But what if no one wants to sell them to you? What about when they become scarce and price becomes forbiding...?

You can't build airplanes with paper euros and you can't build tanks out of euro coins, computers and other electronics also need gold and platinum...
i'm allways curious why do we (EU) have to fight with russia? better for both sides is cooperation we have money and tech and you have resources we are buddies:P like we have **** and you have ****** :P rofl rofl
but if russia dosen't want to be buddies EU can allways take resources from other places with paying much for transportation...

[perdurabo]

Europe runs out of oil or gas they will develop tech around that. EU is the biggest producer of re-useable engery sources in the world.

So please explain me then why do europeans pay $5 for a gallon of gas, why not to use "re-usable energy sources"?
Would you please also post the picture of that Airbus that is powere by solar batteries...
hmm it's still future but i see more and more houses with solar pannels on them more and more water/solar/wind/egzothermal power plants and it's Poland not the richest one...

[perdurabo]

Russia fears the loss of Kaliningrad.

Hmm they should be because Kaliningrad was given tho them only for 50 or 100 yrs by afther war threaty. afther that time another conference should say who will be rulling kaliningrad.

[tooms]

You see, that is where you are wrong: International community is offering Russia money to dismantle its missiles and dispose of other WMD.
I mean if you guys don't want to pay for it - fine, there are plenty of countries in the world who would love to get this problem of Russia's hands ;)
So please, stop kidding yourselfs - you are simply paying off to Russia so nothing happens to your "civilized world"...

do you mean if international community doesnt pay, they are ready to sell them to North korea ? Talibans ?

[Russian Texan]

like we have **** and you have ******
That is very interesting and disturbing comparison :roll: :lol:

From what I understand, Putin is EU oriented and wants to be friends given that it will be mutually beneficial and equal relationship...

As for solar panels and other "alternative sources", it is all in the remote future. One thing is to power a neighborhood with the wind energy but providing power to plants, factories, cars, airplanes, ships, etc. is a completely different story

[Russian Texan]

Russia fears the loss of Kaliningrad.

Hmm they should be because Kaliningrad was given tho them only for 50 or 100 yrs by afther war threaty. afther that time another conference should say who will be rulling kaliningrad.

Trust me Russia will never give up Kaliningdrad, the location is waaay to strategic...
That is one thing that can potentialy cause problems between EU and Russia.

[Argyll]

How about some data on the S-300's?

[HELEX]

@Russian Texan


One thing is to power a neighborhood with the wind energy but providing power to plants, factories, cars, airplanes, ships, etc. is a completely different story

Thats no Point, if you have energy you can produce synthetical Fuel from a lot of Materials. For example in WW2 Germany used carbon and Water to produce Fuel for Vehicles. The Point is is Fossile energy ist still cheaper...

[Russian Texan]

do you mean if international community doesnt pay, they are ready to sell them to North korea ? Talibans ?

Not the Russian government itself, no but people who have acces to WMD might be willing to do some business on a side...

Think about it:
You are a colonel who is in charge of some military instalation that stores chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. You get paid $100 a month, your wife is constantly nagging that you don't make enough money, your kids wear old stiched up clothing and you can't even buy candy for them, your life is miserable... Then one day some "businessman" approaches you and offers you a large sum of money, he offers you a ticket to a better life...
Some would say no and some would give in. You see, the "colonel" doesn't care that those WMD can be used against "civilized westerners", his immediate family problems were solved...

[Kingpin]

How about some data on the S-300's?

Which one you interested in:
S-300P (SA-10 Grumble) or S-300V (SA-12a Gladiator and SA-12b Giant)? :)

[wholagun]

Europe runs out of oil or gas they will develop tech around that. EU is the biggest producer of re-useable engery sources in the world.

So please explain me then why do europeans pay $5 for a gallon of gas, why not to use "re-usable energy sources"?
Would you please also post the picture of that Airbus that is powere by solar batteries...

EU states pay 5 Euro a gallon because of high taxes which are then used to pay for infastructure and what not.

Denmark will/or is recieving half its electricity from wind power. In Poland alone we gotta spend 10 billion euros in the next 10 years or so on reuseable energy to be inline with the EU rules.
As for cars and stuff using non reuseable fuel, Europeans and japanese (two states with the least amount of resources) are the ones that are leading the way in fuel cell tech and other tech like hydrogen cars. As with all tech its expensive in the beggingin but cheaper as you go on. Russia should screw Europe and look at its back in Siberia where it has all th resources and keep an eye on China and other South East Asian country that are just itching to get those resources.

[Argyll]

All of them please,only thing I know about them is that they got me every time I used to Play "flanker 2"!!!! ;)

[perdurabo]

like we have **** and you have ******
That is very interesting and disturbing comparison :roll: :lol:
hehe rofl rofl rofl

From what I understand, Putin is EU oriented and wants to be friends given that it will be mutually beneficial and equal relationship...

it's good for both sides :) but now russia is cutting gas to belarus to controle it and poland is suffering :]
As for solar panels and other "alternative sources", it is all in the remote future. One thing is to power a neighborhood with the wind energy but providing power to plants, factories, cars, airplanes, ships, etc. is a completely different story
yes i said so it is future but not so far 50yrs? who thought about internet 50yrs ago? :)


Trust me Russia will never give up Kaliningdrad, the location is waaay to strategic...
That is one thing that can potentialy cause problems between EU and Russia.

Yes it's true. but it will be in future more and more isolated poland in EU next Baltic states...


Thats no Point, if you have energy you can produce synthetical Fuel from a lot of Materials. For example in WW2 Germany used carbon and Water to produce Fuel for Vehicles. The Point is is Fossile energy ist still cheaper... yes but synthetical fuel isn't future future is in Hydrogene fuels and electricyty, Oil is too precious to loos it in burning process remember that all plastic and stuff is made out of oil...

[HELEX]

@perdurabo

That is no real big problem, all what you need for producing plastics could be synthesized from ordinary Water and carbon! Energy is the Keypoint!!


Some Info:


MOSCOW - Russia will supply the modernized S-300 surface-to-air missile systems to Belarus soon, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Ivanov said after a meeting of the two countries’ defense ministry boards on Wednesday.

He said work in this direction continued, and only formal details remained. Mr. Ivanov expressed confidence that the decision about the transfer of the S-300 systems would be approved by the government soon, and the contract with the state-owned arms export agency Rosoboronexport would be signed.

“This step is important not just for Belarus but also for Russia, for the effective defense of common air space,” Mr. Ivanov said. He stressed that the issue of renting or selling the missile systems was not of principal importance, so far. “What is important is that these systems will be in service use, and they will guard the airspace of the Union State,” Mr. Ivanov stressed.

For his part, Belarusian Defense Minister Leonid Maltsev said that the adoption of a joint military doctrine had helped raise the relations between the two ministries to a new qualitative level. He stressed that the Russian and Belarusian defense ministries had made significant progress in such areas of cooperation as the harmonization and unification of legislation in the sphere of defense, military service and the social protection of the military.

A S-300 surface-to-air missile system is regarded as the calling card of Russian air defense. It is designed to protect military units, strategic military targets and civilian targets from ballistic and cruise missiles, unmanned aircraft and air strikes. It can hit targets at a distance of 7-100km, at a height of 25-30km, and flying at a speed of 300 meters per second.

[oldsoak]

The EU, US and Russia should be far more interested in co-operation instead of trying to negate each other. There are people out there who have ideologies that can justify plunging the West ( and I include the Russians in the term West ) back into instability and turmoil. Like it or not, we're all getting into the same boat.

[Russian Texan]

How about some data on the S-300's?
How about a video


S300 PMU
http://www.aviation.ru/www.rusarm.ru/video/S-300PMU.wmv

Range up to 200km (depending on the missile)
Altitute of engagement 10m to 30km
Speed 2km/sec
Limited anti ballistic capability, ability to detect and engage stealth aircraft.
reported kill ratio 0.8-0.93 vs aircraft and 0.8-0.98 vs tomahawk type cruise missiles.

S300V
http://www.aviation.ru/www.rusarm.ru/video/S-300V.wmv

and a link about it
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-300v.htm

[Russian Texan]

A S-300 surface-to-air missile system is regarded as the calling card of Russian air defense. It is designed to protect military units, strategic military targets and civilian targets from ballistic and <a href="http://go-all.com?go=cruise" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: cruise';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">cruise</a> missiles, unmanned aircraft and air strikes. It can hit targets at a distance of 7-100km, at a height of 25-30km, and flying at a speed of 300 meters per second.

Actually range is up to 200km and speed is 1.7-2km/sec.

[Russian Texan]

Like it or not, we're all getting into the same boat.
True, but who is going to be the wheelman? ;)

[perdurabo]

Like it or not, we're all getting into the same boat.
True, but who is going to be the wheelman? ;)
no no the question is who will be "******" and will put coal into steam-machine and who will bend over to satisfy Jack MehOff

[Russian Texan]

no no the question is who will be "******" and will put coal into steam-machine and will bend over...
That is so politically incorrect :roll: and so funny rofl rofl rofl

[Kingpin]

All of them please,only thing I know about them is that they got me every time I used to Play "flanker 2"!!!! ;)

Switch to Lock On. It have prperly modeled missiles.
Or better play IL-2 - this plane very difficult to be shot down :) :) :)

[mack pl]

Do you heard about IL 110 ???(im not sure is that correct number)If im not wrong it was some project from 80's.

[SeanAshi]

Based on a comments that I have seen on this board, including yours, NATO members are the one who need to realise that Cold War is over...
The truth is that you guys are still afraid and would like for Russia to disappear, sorry not gonna happen Isn't Russian trying to make Chechnya disappear? ;)

[Loco]

no no the question is who will be "******" and will put coal into steam-machine and will bend over...
That is so politically incorrect :roll: and so funny rofl rofl rofl
This is a very interesting issue, I think, because it has a parallel history with situations of the past, the identification of a whole race with a condition. The words "esclavo", "slave" and "slav" share the same origin, actually they had the same meaning. 800 years ago the arabs, those sand "******s", had the bad habit of buying slavs in eastern europe and they were sent to and sold all along mediterranean sea, and when they controlled they south of Spain, they had thriving slave markets in ports like Almeria and Málaga in which slavs were sold to other hispano-muslim kings or to the northern christian kingdoms of Spain, so in one moment of history, the hispano christians who talked a latin language stopped of using the old latin word of "servus" for using the word "esclavo" or "eslavo" because most of the slaves they bought or captured to arabs were slavs and themselves said they came "from Esclavonia", so when they re-exported those slavs to France or Flandes they didn´t say anymore "siervos" or "servus" but "esclavos" or "eslavos", hence the origin of the word "slave".

[martinexsquaddie]

I think most of eastern europe did'nt enjoy being part of the warsaw pact and most people would like russia to be slightly more stable.
its a big country and if its anything like the ukraine I'd be worried about it :(

[wholagun]

@ Loco. Yes the Slavs were slaves but don't generalize. Only Balkan area Slavs were used as slavs the slave trade did not go up past Czech Rep and Hungary.

[Midav]

My view is this: If the Russians and Belarus want to do this, then let them.

It's inside their borders and their right. NATO isn't going to attack them but, if this is like a baby blanket for them to feel more comfortable, who cares?

It's their right.

[Piotrek]

Well Loco - I think that was more then 800 years ago. Few days ago I read an interesting article about the beginnigs of Poland - it seems that the main source of money for polish (or mayby not yet polish) dukes was selling prisoners cought during tribel fights etc. ther was even duty on the border for "exporting" the slave.

Hey - Wholagun - Hungarians are not slavs!.

[AK-Lover]

Russia still has the ability to do this:
http://www.disastershelters.net/images/resources/bomb.jpg
:P
And this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/740000/images/_741415_victory300.jpg
Ah, always loved to see those May Day parades! woot And this one was in 2000! :P

[martinexsquaddie]

yeah but these days its just the one rank of soldiers rofl

[perdurabo]

no no the question is who will be "******" and will put coal into steam-machine and will bend over...
That is so politically incorrect :roll: and so funny rofl rofl rofl
This is a very interesting issue, I think, because it has a parallel history with situations of the past, the identification of a whole race with a condition. The words "esclavo", "slave" and "slav" share the same origin, actually they had the same meaning. 800 years ago the arabs, those sand "******s", had the bad habit of buying slavs in eastern europe and they were sent to and sold all along mediterranean sea, and when they controlled they south of Spain, they had thriving slave markets in ports like Almeria and Málaga in which slavs were sold to other hispano-muslim kings or to the northern christian kingdoms of Spain, so in one moment of history, the hispano christians who talked a latin language stopped of using the old latin word of "servus" for using the word "esclavo" or "eslavo" because most of the slaves they bought or captured to arabs were slavs and themselves said they came "from Esclavonia", so when they re-exported those slavs to France or Flandes they didn´t say anymore "siervos" or "servus" but "esclavos" or "eslavos", hence the origin of the word "slave".
in XVII wars on tosdays ukraine area meany ppl was cached and send to work as a slaves Poles/Lithuanians(if they where noble mane they ussually where payed off and could go free), Russians(the cheapest one- sorry mates that is true), Cossacs (ussually for hard work like gallerys and coal mines) Nogajs (one of mongols tribes their women was moust preciuos) and meany others...

[Sergei]

Stupid reaction from Russia... :roll:

They still didnt understand that the Cold War is over since 15 years ? NATO is no longer an enemy....

Well, according to some neocon freaks, things are not as rosy as you describe.

//....If in the beginning of 90's the talk was about the threat to democratic processes in Russia, now there is a talk about the threat of Russian nuclear arsenal and the possibility of Russia to recover and strengthen its armed forces. In such a way you can talk only about a POTENTIAL ADVERSARY. ..//-- http://www.ng.ru/politics/2000-02-11/1_dictat.html

//...Secretary of State M. Albright says openly that the main task of american foreign policy is MANAGE THE PROCESS OF DISINTEGRATION in the post-Soviet area//.

//Margaret Thatcher about Russia in one of the meetings in 2003 (http://www.iraqwar.ru)
"We shall leave no more than 15 mln. of slavs and employ them in the agriculture business" //

//…From the European point of view there were always too many slavs - Margaret Thatcher openly discussed a possibility to carry out her dream: create an artificial famine to reduce the population of USSR, in order for it to be 15 times less the current level. It is characteristic that Thatcher's ideas were met warmly and with understanding in Europe…//-- http://courier-pmr.narod.ru/n_2_2/first_ln.htm

//Russia's natural resources should belong to the international community, as Russia can't properly manage them anyways// Richard Perle, the prince of darkness

So judging by all those "open-minded" folks, I think we better keep our weapons ready and our gunpowder dry.

I back Putin 100% on this, just in case certain neocon freaks will get nasty and decide to do some **** a-la Kosovo style.

[fdt]

The worst part of all the discussions here concerning the "Russia vs rest of the World" are employing all the "national prides" and "who rules the world" crap.... where in fact all the real and dillusional ambitions are rather a matter of making sensible business.

Myth No 1: "Russia has nukes so it must be treated as a World rules maker".

Yes Russia has nukes, so what. All it can do is destroy the World or it's part. What good would come from it for Russia? Russia is a power (now limited because of difficult internal issues) not because of Topols, but because is a country that has large territory and vast natural resources that are vital for the rest of the World (Europe in particular). Well managed those resources can give Russia (heck, why no Russian ever writes Russian People? it's always Russia in their writings...) the means to develop it's economy and to rise the overall living standards. At the other hand Europe (and the World) can benefit from this good russian resources management, having a reliable (so far it varies) source of energy and raw materials. Europe will pay real money, Russia can turn those incomes as a leverage not only to produce new weapons (and making the super-rich oligarchs richer) but also to help the Russian society to develop (construction of residential, transport, medical and social infrastructure). Developed, the Russian economy can become less independent on raw materials and weapons exports. Economy development brings more budget income and increases the military capacities... it is always this sequence. Russia has nukes but it doesn't make it a World Power, Russia is a strong country but has a potential to become a World Power as it begins to manage it's resources well and will join the World Economy on equal terms.

Myth No 2: "NATO is a danger for Russia".

No it's not anymore... because today it's a different NATO. For some Russians NATO is still presented as a anti Russian bloc, but now it's a organization that needs to exist, because it has proved that is a useful tool for keeping a peace. It's needed because there is too many things uncertain in contemporary World, and NATO has a potential to hold those uncertainities when they can possibly turn into ****. It was RussianTexan who wrote: "I do, it is not an "open" fear but rather a "subliminal" one: you are living next door to a big guy, don't understand him and don't know what he is going to do next... " Yes, and that is a point. Russia seems to many as an unpredictable country and everything what's uncertain makes people wary. Is it so difficult to understand? We are not affraid of Russian govt, we are not affraid of Russian People we are affraid of the unpredictable Russian policy. I can assure You, that when You Russians make Your policy more predictable... Your worry about NATO will diminish or even disappear... Furthermore on both sides the balance of fear will drop into a much lower level. It's not the point who is more affraid, the point is not to fear and start living side by side.

All those fears on boths sides create lots of unnecessary (and expensive) movements that make the common living more difficult. A Kaliningrad issue is a good example here (I live 40 km from the Oblast' border). Russia says it must have a free unchecked transit to K. It's the matter of sovereignity over the territory and our honor says Moscow. No it isn't. Why is Russia try to impose this condition as it would never agree on it's own? The answer is "because we are the world power". And the pride madness begins. Can't it be solved? Yes it can if You assume that Your sovereignity is as important as other countries sovereignity. It's not an issue of honor but a question of finding a good "technical" solution to respect botrh sovereignities. No need to raise the national hysteria but to sit and find a consensus (such as simplified control procedures of border control)... by the way You can deliver Your nukes to K. unchallenged via sea transport, why do You need to deliver it via rail or roads? Would You let the other county transport his nukes via Your soil? I doubt that.

Another issue is a question of visas for Russian citizens on EU entry. Russian govt again says: it's an honor issue while it is not. Poland was a country that opposed entering the visa regime for Russians, Byelarussians and Ukrainians. We don't see the threat, because we had no visas for 14 years and nothing bad was happening. EU says if You wanna enter You must impose that, so we finally did as EU joining was a multi issue deal. But why EU is affraid of Russians coming there without visas? They say: It's not the Russians problem, but the problem of Chinese, Afghani, Pakistani etc... who enter Russia without the proper control, they would pass the Poland (we are not attractive to them so far :D ) and they will go to Germany, France or Britain to seek refuge. Russian govt tells his citizens "it's a discrimination" but it does nothing to tighten a control over the illegal immigration on his own territory. Is it a fake threat? Look at the far east of Russia... how many Chinese, N.Korean etc. illegals lives there. Soon there will be more of them there than Russians. Nobody in Russia notices that?

In conclusion. There are lots of issues to be solved, but all of them may be solved with use of boring negotiations. When arranged, both EU and Russia can well profit of collaboration. Raising the emotional issues (for the internal policy use?) leads us to nowhere fueling stupid tensions that are not based on facts but rotten old ideologies and propaganda of "good" old cold war times.

Cold war is over, whether some want it or not. It's time to think about our children not the dead guy lying in the tank with chemicals.

[Sergei]

:roll:

[fdt]

Myth No 2: "NATO is a danger for Russia".

No it's not anymore... because today it's a different NATO. For some Russians NATO is still presented as a anti Russian bloc, but now it's a organization that needs to exist, because it has proved that is a useful tool for keeping a peace.
Sure, bombing the living **** out of serbian and albanian civilians sounds like a plan. NOT!
Different in what respect? It is still an alliance to counter-balance Russia. Maybe the dying part will be done by newly acquired members but the actual reason why NATO should exist is gone.




It's needed because there is too many things uncertain in contemporary World, and NATO has a potential to hold those uncertainities when they can possibly turn into ****.
And that is why I like NATO where it is - in the crosshair of my gun, not closer.



Furthermore on both sides the balance of fear will drop into a much lower level. It's not the point who is more affraid, the point is not to fear and start living side by side.

The balance of fear will drop only when some western politicians will drop a practice of "Might is Right" and "Law of the Jungle"-Realpolitik approach to deal with small countries. Otherwise, Russia is better be armed. If it wasn't for Russia's nukes and other weaponry, NATO would be flying bombing raids into Chechnya and other parts of Russia today, a rehearsal of Kosovo scenario. No? Tell me one thing, is it pointless for me to try to discuss with You (because You know better anyway) or is that a sort of twisted invitation to discuss things seriously and in good will? Your remark about having the NATO in Your crosshair needs to be appended that for that reason NATO may feel that the best place for You is in theirs (ours) crosshair. You really feel comfortable with that? Do You really want Your children (if You have them) to live like that or You want to leave them a Worrld being safer place?
You say Serbia and Kosovo, I will say Pridniestrovie, Abkhasia, Georgia, Nagorno Karabakh.... will such a dispute lead us somewhere?

[Sergei]

:roll:

[fdt]

Tell me one thing, is it pointless for me to try to discuss with You (because You know better anyway) or is that a sort of twisted invitation to discuss things seriously and in good will?

Consider it anyway you like it, just don't tell stupid tales about NATO being a knight in shining armor. These are stories for teenagers with pimples. The real purpose of the bloc is to influence political decisions, sometimes with the measure of military force is necessary.



Your remark about having the NATO in Your crosshair needs to be appended that for that reason NATO may feel that the best place for You is in theirs (ours) crosshair. You really feel comfortable with that? Do You really want Your children (if You have them) to live like that or You want to leave them a Worrld being safer place?
I want my children to live without fear of being bombed any chance some daddy in Europe decides it is high time to do the training for his pilots. Just the way I grew up knowing we will waste anyone who would wish to repeat Hitler and Napoleon. If that requires keeping an aggressive bloc in the crosshair of the gun, that is the way to do it.




You say Serbia and Kosovo, I will say Pridniestrovie, Abkhasia, Georgia, Nagorno Karabakh.... will such a dispute lead us somewhere?

Which tells me you don't know jack**** about any of the mentioned conflicts.
Let me enlighten you a bit.
Nagorny Karabakh - an ethnic conflict between ethnic Armenians and Azerbaijanis.
Pridnestrovie - been there, done that, pro-Romanian Moldova fighting against Pridnestrovie whose citizens didn't want to associate themselves with Moldova. They still don't.
Abhasia-Georgia - internal conflict of Georgia with its breakaway part which wishes to stay with Russia.

What are the similarities of these conflicts with Kosovo 1999? Similarities are obvious - a foreign power involved (more of less directly, dependent on the actual resources of the interveining power) in local conflicts, supporting one side against other. I didn't mention Chechnia purposely because it is a conflict within the Russian Federation... those mentioned were outside Russian borders. Another similarity is Abkhaz didn't want to be within Georgia, Russians didn't want to be in Moldova, Armenians didn't want to be in Azarbaidjan and..... Albanians didn't want to be in Serbia (Yugoslavia). Right? Or I am mistaken that there were no Russian Involvement in Pridnestrovie (What was Lebed' doing there?) , Nagorno Karabakh and Abkhasia? Realpolitik in all cases, effect the same in all cases... civil wars stopped (but the military presence of the powers interveining remained to date). Unless You will call it a peacemaking it still is a realpolitik that is not subject of NATO monopoly. Difference was only that Russians didn't bomb (as Yanks prefer to do it) but supplied their sides with arms, training and well paid "volunteers"...

[HELEX]

Not a single shot will be fired, first there will be demonstration to join Europe, if the people of Kalingrad then are asked if they want to belong to Russia or to Europe every sane person will choose Europe. So Russia can do nothing. Sending Troops is impossibel, becaus NATO rules the sea.

Very simple. p-)

[fdt]

Not a single shot will be fired, first there will be demonstration to join Europe, if the people of Kalingrad then are asked if they want to belong to Russia or to Europe every sane person will choose Europe. So Russia can do nothing. Sending Troops is impossibel, becaus NATO rules the sea.

Very simple. p-)Nobody will ask the Oblast' inhabitants this question. It's a part of Russian federation... period (tochka).

[HELEX]

Nobody will ask the Oblast' inhabitants this question. It's a part of Russian federation... period (tochka).

They will ask themself, like in all the other countries before.... :lol:

[Sergei]

Similarities are obvious - a foreign power involved (more of less directly, dependent on the actual resources of the interveining power) in local conflicts, supporting one side against other.
It is obvious only to your damaged brain.


Nagorno Karabakh and Abkhasia? Realpolitik in all cases, effect the same in all cases... civil wars stopped (but the military presence of the powers interveining remained to date.
If you think Nagorny Karabakh and Abkhasia are over, you should quit smoking that pipe of yours.


Albanians didn't want to be in Serbia (Yugoslavia).
And that's why they decided to slaughter serbian population of Kosovo? And later were helped by NATO. Great stuff. Care to mention how many serbians live in Kosovo today? I will tell, just 120 people closely guarded by KFOR all the time, their safety is not guaranteed at all.
Chechnya - the scenario would be the same if Russia's armed forces were as humble as Yugoslavian armed forces.



Right? Or I am mistaken that there were no Russian Involvement in Pridnestrovie (What was Lebed' doing there?)
Of course there was involvement, what would you do if you had to guard huge amounts of weapons and ammo on the territory of Moldova if it were to be acquired by terrorists. 14th Army inherited stockpiles of weapons and ammo enough to arm a whole freaking NATO contingent in Europe.



Unless You will call it a peacemaking it still is a realpolitik that is not subject of NATO monopoly.
Stopping bloodshed without indiscriminatory bombing of all the warying parties is called "peace-keeping".



Difference was only that Russians didn't bomb (as Yanks prefer to do it) but supplied their sides with arms, training and well paid "volunteers"...
Why blame the yanks again? Last time I checked many NATO members flew bombing or support missions on Belgrad. And that includes Germans, British, Italians.

[Sergei]

Nobody will ask the Oblast' inhabitants this question. It's a part of Russian federation... period (tochka).

They will ask themself, like in all the other countries before.... :lol:

Wishful thinking. I don't see any demonstrations, do you?

[HELEX]

Wishful thinking. I don't see any demonstrations, do you?

I did not say it will happen now or tomorrow but I´m sure in the next 10 Years...

[mustamato]

Nobody will ask the Oblast' inhabitants this question. It's a part of Russian federation... period (tochka).

They will ask themself, like in all the other countries before.... :lol:

Wishful thinking. I don't see any demonstrations, do you?

I think it will change, with the surrounding countries in EU they will get richer,
and all that. Right now Kaliningrad is like some 3rd world country while the
other countries around it is living in the real world. Kaliningrad is hm, hold
back by Russia, with their geographical position they could benefit from the other
EU-countries surrounding them.

Kaliningrad being part of Europe:

http://www.chemie.tu-freiberg.de/~herzog/Ostpreussen/KoenigsbergHundegatt.jpg

And being part of Russia:

http://www.reise-nach-ostpreussen.de/Koeberg/KOEBG4.JPG

If I were living there I wouldn´t have a hard time deciding on what part of
the world I would like to belong to.

[Russian Texan]

They can demonstrate as much as they want, but is it going to change anything?
Although the biggest "garantor" that Kaliningrad will stay part of Russia is not the Russian government or its military,but certain people who have very profitable "businesses" in Kaliningrad because of its location and sea port.
So as soon as any european official opens his mouth or gets serious about calling for action to push russians out of Kaliningrad, trust me - his family members will start to disappear, house might catch on fire, car accident might happen, some unpleasant facts from his/her past might get revealed, things like that...
There is way too much money to be made in Kaliningrad ;)

[mustamato]

There is way too much money to be made in Kaliningrad ;)

And there would be more money if they were not part of Russia, but a indendent
state and a member of EU. Well it will not happen in the near future, but maybe some
time. It´s not like they need Russia, it´s Russia that needs them.

[Durandal]

Completely off topic...sort of...

We bought a tractor from Belorussia...

Not a bad ride...a little rough around the edges buch half the price of a John Deer and about 75% of a New Holland...

[Russian Texan]

[quote=Russian Texan]There is way too much money to be made in Kaliningrad ;)

Naive child, if Kaliningrad becomes part of "law obiding, regulated rules and policies Europe" most of those "businessman" will loose the money. that is exactly why it will never happen...

[mustamato]

Completely off topic...sort of...

We bought a tractor from Belorussia...

Not a bad ride...a little rough around the edges buch half the price of a John Deer and about 75% of a New Holland...

And the country is ruled by a dictator...

http://fepn.ru/prize/img/lukashenko.gif

Good to see that not only the Russians support him :)

[Russian Texan]

Completely off topic...sort of...

We bought a tractor from Belorussia...

Not a bad ride...a little rough around the edges buch half the price of a John Deer and about 75% of a New Holland...

And the country is ruled by a dictator...

http://fepn.ru/prize/img/lukashenko.gif

Good to see that not only the Russians support him :)

He is also a hockey player, so I bet Canadians like him too ;)

[mustamato]

[quote=Russian Texan]There is way too much money to be made in Kaliningrad ;)

Naive child, if Kaliningrad becomes part of "law obiding, regulated rules and policies Europe" most of those "businessman" will loose the money. that is exactly why it will never happen...

Says the kid with a "special edition" car from 2002. I think the people living
in Kaliningrad that even can´t afford a Lada is of a different opinion.

[Durandal]

No, this dictator...

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dmiguse/Russian/mg1.gif

I never said WHEN we bought, just from whom...

[Russian Texan]

People who decide what is "Go" what what is "No go" in Kaliningrad do not drive Ladas but mostly armored 7 series and S600 ;)
Trust me, once Europe decides to move into kaliningrad it will step on some toes, and those toes belong to "businessman" that got their start in the "wild west meets wild east" of 90's Russia...

[oldsoak]

Sounds like your are describing mafia types. How can one have a state run by these types ? ( I would have thought that the Russians and their allies would have had a VERY firm grip on these types )

[mustamato]

Sounds like your are describing mafia types. How can one have a state run by these types ? ( I would have thought that the Russians and their allies would have had a VERY firm grip on these types )

Hm. And there is a difference between RussianT´s wet dreams and real life.
These "businessmen" (oligarks) have lost much of the influence they had under
the weak Yeltsin, and the claim that it is them that will decide wether Kaliningrad
will or will not be a more integrated part of the western world in the future is naive.

[fdt]

And that's why they decided to slaughter serbian population of Kosovo? And later were helped by NATO. Great stuff. Care to mention how many serbians live in Kosovo today? I will tell, just 120 people closely guarded by KFOR all the time, their safety is not guaranteed at all.

- Cool. Your estimates must have some basis. Pls reveal them. :cantbeli:

Of course there was involvement, what would you do if you had to guard huge amounts of weapons and ammo on the territory of Moldova if it were to be acquired by terrorists.

- Terrorists from which side? :cantbeli:

Stopping bloodshed without indiscriminatory bombing of all the warying parties is called "peace-keeping".

- Good advice: no indiscriminatory bombing, shelling, firing. Not only NATO should take this seriously. :cantbeli:


Nagorno Karabakh and Abkhasia? Realpolitik in all cases, effect the same in all cases... civil wars stopped (but the military presence of the powers interveining remained to date.
If you think Nagorny Karabakh and Abkhasia are over, you should quit smoking that pipe of yours.

- Full scale fighting stopped, skirmishes may happen sometimes. Where did I write that Karabakh and Abkhasia "are over"? Who misled You telling that I smoke?

Sergei. I tried to be aware of becoming emotional while discussing with You. Unfortunately You couldn't keep Yourself up in similar manner. Pity. You write obvious nonsense as the stuff about 120 Serbs in whole Kosovo and blame me for writing bulls*it. Well in that case I wish You all well, but I don't see any point to carry on that "dialogue" while You are not a bit willing to listen and to discuss. You always know best... With such an attitude You may fool some people who don't know the region... to argue with me You would have to learn more about the topics.

P.S. I have been to Kosovo numerous times after the 1999 war - in business. I've been talking to many Serbs and Albanians (who certainly are not the angels). It happens that one of my friends is a girl from Smirnovland that remembers the time of war very well (as she was 20 then)... and last but not least, the Armenian guy I buy the bread from in the corner shop happens to be a vet of the Karabakh war (seen the pics he showed me to prove it).... so pls spare me mumbling such as "what can You know".

Bud' zdorov Seriozha.

[fdt]

Sounds like your are describing mafia types. How can one have a state run by these types ? ( I would have thought that the Russians and their allies would have had a VERY firm grip on these types )

Hm. And there is a difference between RussianT´s wet dreams and real life.
These "businessmen" (oligarks) have lost much of the influence they had under
the weak Yeltsin, and the claim that it is them that will decide wether Kaliningrad
will or will not be a more integrated part of the western world in the future is naive.Are You sure that there are no new oligarkhs? C'mon... Getting rid of the "old" doesn't mean that there are no oligakhs at all... They simply are the "new style" "new russkies". :lol:

[Russian Texan]

Just shows one more time how clueless you are, I wasn't talking about oligarhs, "businessman" is a very different type of people ;)
Bill Gates might have the money, but does he have the power.... ;)


[quote]Sounds like your are describing mafia types. How can one have a state run by these types ? ( I would have thought that the Russians and their allies would have had a VERY firm grip on these types )
Oldsoak, in Russia there is a very fine line between a government and a mafia and sometimes that line is indistinguishable ;)
There always was, is and will be mafia in Russia, it is part of the society/mentality.
Mind that Russian mafia is nothing like you have seen in a "Godfather".
In fact there is more than just one: there are police mafia, military mafia and political mafia and they are constantly fighting for power & money.
Yelczin years were the years of political mafia, now it is time of police mafia.
Just to give you an idea how much power they have - first war in Chechnya was started by mafia.
All of it might sound very strange and alien to you, but mafia is an integral part of the Russian society.
From what I heard China has very similar situation.

[Loco]

@ Loco. Yes the Slavs were slaves but don't generalize. Only Balkan area Slavs were used as slavs the slave trade did not go up past Czech Rep and Hungary.

in XVII wars on tosdays ukraine area meany ppl was cached and send to work as a slaves Poles/Lithuanians(if they where noble mane they ussually where payed off and could go free), Russians(the cheapest one- sorry mates that is true), Cossacs (ussually for hard work like gallerys and coal mines) Nogajs (one of mongols tribes their women was moust preciuos) and meany others...
:roll:
I wouldn´t pretend to generalize, even I didn´t know the huge scale of this practice, ignored to me, but it´s true that the term "slave" replaced the word "servus" and today everybody talk of slaves or esclavos although much people don´t know the word´s origin, so is the same changing "******"(from "negro"(black) a portuguese and spanish word :oops: ) for
no no the question is who will be "slav" and will put coal into steam-machine
Anyway, everybody have queens and prostitutes, kings and slaves(or servus!) in our genealogical trees. But talking about relationship between east/west, I´d like listening opinions of people from Chekia, Slovakia, or Rumanía, etc, but sadly they don´t visit this forum, I wonder if they are so suspicious about Russia or EU or USA or Poland like polish and russians are. My conclusions, reading differents opinions, is that:
1.Polish in general have suspicion of russians more that germanies. In my opinion, I´d understand perhap some kind of hate or resentment about recent past, but more regarding germanies than russians, but clearly Russia is not a threat for Poland, or it is but in the same sense you can state Austria is a threat for Greece or France for Portugal.
2.Russia shows a clear melancoly about its recent past. Russia is not the 1º power ex aequo with USA and it won´t be in the next 50 years, not because of decadence but because China is growing, and will got the gold medal in about 25-30 years, no more. But Russia has all kind of natural resourcea, territory s and the know-how, it´s a question it only deppends on they own to become an organized, free and fair society, that it´s: a richer and comfortable society than is just know. Who knows? It´s very possible that in the future Russia will be the main destiny point for inmigrants, just like now is USA and EU, so in 80 years since now, Russia could be nº1 again, this time I hope not only in terms of military power but of richness an social advances. What I don´t like is that some russians only miss the strengh and imperialism of Soviet Union, 70 years of PCommunist only for that??? Soviet Union had some things good that it seems as if they are forgotten. It seems as if cinism replaced idealism. Btw, a Russia well developped and balanced would be clearly a partner of EU, an that´s a goooood thing, and talking about military, every year Russian and Nato members walk a step closer in terms of cooperation and celebrating trainings together.
3.The others: Clearly, neither former Nato members don´t see Russia as a threat, nor is in the mind of any Nato member. Reading that russians don´t want being attacked again like in the times of Napoleon or Hitler reminds my of the elephant being afraid of the mouse, please...And, btw, Russia was less times invaded that it was invader towards the east and the west, and it wasn´t Russia the only target of Napoleon or Hitler. Btw, Napoleon only spent 6 months in Russia, but he was 4 years in Spain and left this country leveled, and it´s true that far more grognards died in Spain that in Russia p-) But certainly, spanish don´t have nightmares of Napoleon 2 centuries ago nor they called them "frogs" or any other stupid word, umm, well, we call them "gabachos", but it´s a word more affectionate than insultant.

[He219]

Mikhail Ivanovich Kalinin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Kalinin)
:cantbeli:

http://pirmojiknyga.mch.mii.lt/parodos/Karalimiges/karalh.jpg
Ostpreußen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia).

[fdt]

Mikhail Ivanovich Kalinin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Kalinin)
:cantbeli:

http://pirmojiknyga.mch.mii.lt/parodos/Karalimiges/karalh.jpg
Ostpreußen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia). Not anymore man... It is now: Oblast', Mazury, Warmia and Pomezania. C'est passe...

[Sergei]

You all forget, gentlemen, that Kaliningrad possess a major naval base and other military installations, so the question would be quite tricky for European politicians.
In what respect would you admit Kaliningrad into EU? As an independent state or as a part of Lithuania or Poland? What happens to russian population in Kaliningrad oblast? Do they get purged like serbians in Kosovo?

[fdt]

It's a fact that some people in germany have a dreams about "invisibly" stealing Oblast' from Russia. They say "Russian now are quietly returning us all the pieces of art that they have taken after the WWII, so in a few years they will be more willingly to consider returning us the Konigsberg"... Well let them dream. They are "sure" that if asked Russian population of Oblast' would cheerfully vote to separate from Russia and to join the territory to EU, but they seem to ommit one little detail.... noone will ask the Russian population of Oblast' whether they want or don't want to separate from Russia. That's all... so stop dreaming. Konigsberg will remain Kaliningrad. And to add from Polish point of view - noone here (what considers all states in region) wants to change borders for the sake of some outdated German sentiments... no way.

[oldsoak]

Do the Russians get purged in it becomes part of the EU ? - absolutely not ! Any Russian ( or anyone else ) who can prove that they were living in Kaliningrad at the time it entered the EU should have the option of choosing whose passport they want to carry and then its back to "life as usual". Why get rid of good citizens ? not to mention the immorality of pushing out someone on the basis of their race. The question of the military facilities is a tricky one, and I dont think there is a good answer.

[fdt]

Do the Russians get purged in it becomes part of the EU ? - absolutely not ! Any Russian ( or anyone else ) who can prove that they were living in Kaliningrad at the time it entered the EU should have the option of choosing whose passport they want to carry and then its back to "life as usual". Why get rid of good citizens ? not to mention the immorality of pushing out someone on the basis of their race. The question of the military facilities is a tricky one, and I dont think there is a good answer.There are various kinds of purges, as for example Rwanda way and Bradford way...

[Sergei]

Do the Russians get purged in it becomes part of the EU ? - absolutely not ! Any Russian ( or anyone else ) who can prove that they were living in Kaliningrad at the time it entered the EU should have the option of choosing whose passport they want to carry and then its back to "life as usual". Why get rid of good citizens ? not to mention the immorality of pushing out someone on the basis of their race. The question of the military facilities is a tricky one, and I dont think there is a good answer.There are various kinds of purges, as for example Rwanda way and Bradford way...

I meant the easy way, like all Russian citizens should leave Kaliningrad area and then the population of Germany or Poland (even Lithuania) would move in on its territory to repopulate it.

[oldsoak]

No reason for the Russian people to leave, anyone who is hardworking and honest should be welcomed and encouraged to stay - Kaliningrad could become a melting pot of european cultures - people could be as inclusive or distinctive as they please !

[fdt]

No reason for the Russian people to leave, anyone who is hardworking and honest should be welcomed and encouraged to stay - Kaliningrad could become a melting pot of european cultures - people could be as inclusive or distinctive as they please !Who will decide who is "hardworking and honest" and therefore "should be welcomed and encouraged to stay". I assume that the same people will have powers to decide who is not "hardworking and honest" and therefore "should NOT be welcomed and encouraged to stay". :cantbeli:

Please, spare us beautiful words... start talking difficult details. Tell us all how do You imagine this Kaliningrad's separation from Russia? Are You going to buy it like Louisiana or Alaska? rofl

[oldsoak]

Kaliningrad can only be part of the EU if the inhabitants wish it - otherwise it wont work. How that happens I havent a clue - that why it is up for discussion. Heck, they might not want to join. The words are beautiful as you call it because I like to wish people well.

[fdt]

Kaliningrad can only be part of the EU if the inhabitants wish it - otherwise it wont work. How that happens I havent a clue - that why it is up for discussion. Heck, they might not want to join. The words are beautiful as you call it because I like to wish people well.Well, the inhabitants of Kaliningrad might even wish to join EU, but the problem is that present lawful ruler of the territory - Moscow, doesn't (and will not ever) want it to separate. What would You do then? Inhabitants want, Moscow doesn't want... are You going to put sanctions on Russia (including Kaliningrad) or bomb Kremlin? Please... wishing well is a good thing, devil hides in details... Think of it this way: if You wish well to the people of Kaliningrad and all the rest of the World, wouldn't it be better not even to mention the separation... huh?

[He219]

It's a fact that some people in germany have a dreams about "invisibly" stealing Oblast' from Russia. They say "Russian now are quietly returning us all the pieces of art that they have taken after the WWII, so in a few years they will be more willingly to consider returning us the Konigsberg"... Well let them dream. They are "sure" that if asked Russian population of Oblast' would cheerfully vote to separate from Russia and to join the territory to EU, but they seem to ommit one little detail.... noone will ask the Russian population of Oblast' whether they want or don't want to separate from Russia. That's all... so stop dreaming. Konigsberg will remain Kaliningrad. And to add from Polish point of view - noone here (what considers all states in region) wants to change borders for the sake of some outdated German sentiments... no way.

Sentiments? Königsberg; founded in the 13th century by the Teutonic Knights, 1457 to 1618 became the residence of the Prussian 'Hochmeister' and in 1701 Kurfürst Frederick III von Brandenburg became King Friedrich I (whose son was Frederick the Great) at the Königsberger Schloss.

Prussia was the largest territorial unit within the German Empire and the German Republic. From the late 18th century, Prussians dominated Germany both politically and in terms of population, and was the core of the unified German state formed in 1871 at the Hall of Mirrors in the Versailles palace near Paris.

My Grandmother was born in Königsberg. It became 'annexed' by the Soviets. And you talk about 'stealing' ....

:roll:

[fdt]

It's a fact that some people in germany have a dreams about "invisibly" stealing Oblast' from Russia. They say "Russian now are quietly returning us all the pieces of art that they have taken after the WWII, so in a few years they will be more willingly to consider returning us the Konigsberg"... Well let them dream. They are "sure" that if asked Russian population of Oblast' would cheerfully vote to separate from Russia and to join the territory to EU, but they seem to ommit one little detail.... noone will ask the Russian population of Oblast' whether they want or don't want to separate from Russia. That's all... so stop dreaming. Konigsberg will remain Kaliningrad. And to add from Polish point of view - noone here (what considers all states in region) wants to change borders for the sake of some outdated German sentiments... no way.

Sentiments? Königsberg; founded in the 13th century by the Teutonic Knights, 1457 to 1618 became the residence of the Prussian 'Hochmeister' and in 1701 Kurfürst Frederick III von Brandenburg became King Friedrich I (whose son was Frederick the Great) at the Königsberger Schloss.

Prussia was the largest territorial unit within the German Empire and the German Republic. From the late 18th century, Prussians dominated Germany both politically and in terms of population, and was the core of the unified German state formed in 1871 at the Hall of Mirrors in the Versailles palace near Paris.

My Grandmother was born in Königsberg. It became 'annexed' by the Soviets. And you talk about 'stealing' ....

:roll: So what? There are no Germans who live there, there is only some infrastructure built long time ago (not much left though). What are You going to tell us? That it's a sufficient reason to change the borders? What about Wroclaw, Szczecin, Gdansk, Elblag, Olsztyn, Elk... don't You want it too?

My grandparents were born respectively in Lvov and Vilnius but I don't think that it's a sufficient reason to send my son to war for the sake of regaining those lands for Poland... For what? In both those cities lives quite a bunch of Polish nationals (how many Germans lives now in Kaliningrad?) so I would have a better reason to demand the return of the cities to Poland, but I don't want it anymore. I don't want another war and expulsions, I don't want another purges and "aussiedlung" in this part of Europe in the name of fact that someone was born somewhere. I can look at the old pictures in family album as well as I can go there as a "sentimental" tourist. That's all I want to do for the sake of my sentiments. It seems that we are sharing the same emotional burden but You are not able (and/or willing) to name it properly. These are sentiments now and they are not worth even a drop of blood that would have to be spilled to change the present borders. Are You ready to send there Your son as a soldier to fight for Your "right"?

P.S. Ever heard of Potsdam Conference?

[GazB]

The Kaliningrad pocket can't join the EU or NATO. I had heard that both the EU and NATO have decided that Russia cannot join either organisation and the Kaliningrad pocket is Russian territory. The only two viable solutions are a berlin type situation or an annexing... the latter would be an act of war however and I don't think NATO or the EU is ready for that.

[Schwabo Elite]

@He219

Don't forget Austria. Since the rise of Prussia those two territorial states of the first German Empire (up to 1806) have fought several wars (Fritz vs. Sissi ;) ) and Austria was the dominant power in Germany together with Prussia until it was bet in the German war of 1866 at Königsgrätz.
They both competed for supremacy, but unlitmately Austria failed to build up a good infratructure, industry and its allies, mostly the southern German states such as Bavaria and Swabia weren't a match for the Prussians and their allies.

@all

Kaliningrad/Königsberg was part of Germany until annexed by the SU. Germany, and that means the current Federal Republic of Germany, decided to accept its current eastern borders after the reunification. Though Kaliningrad is a special case, since it was occupied by Russia and not the SU in total, which means that is now an enclave surrounded by EU/NATO members.
It is true that the EU agreed with Russia that it is not possible for Ru to join the EU. Same for the NATO. However the EU might change that in a few decades. Who knows...

SE

[GazB]

My Grandmother was born in Königsberg. It became 'annexed' by the Soviets. And you talk about 'stealing' ....


I am sure if Germany went to all the former soviet states and repaired all the damage Germany did during WWII and brought all the people Germany killed back to life they would have given back Konigsberg.

[martinexsquaddie]

IF thevresidents of kalingrad want to join the eu
whats moscow going to be able to do?
slighty harder to do a cheneya with the world's press watching :(

[fdt]

My Grandmother was born in Königsberg. It became 'annexed' by the Soviets. And you talk about 'stealing' ....


I am sure if Germany went to all the former soviet states and repaired all the damage Germany did during WWII and brought all the people Germany killed back to life they would have given back Konigsberg.I think that this is a good and constructive proposal. I think Poland could join that tripartite solution with Germany and Russia, but it would rquire to make it sixpartite as there would be a need to invite the Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine... Damn me, I have forgotten the Czechs and many others... rofl

[GazB]

IF thevresidents of kalingrad want to join the eu
whats moscow going to be able to do?
slighty harder to do a cheneya with the world's press watching

Except that its main reason for existance is that it is a port used for a naval base and a rather large percentage of those who live there are fairly patriotic Russians who are either in the direct service of Russia or are family members of someone who is.

A bit like everyone in Guantanimo voting to give the base back to Castro...

[Sixgun Symphony]

Stupid reaction from Russia... :roll:

They still didnt understand that the Cold War is over since 15 years ? NATO is no longer an enemy....

Based on a comments that I have seen on this board, including yours, NATO members are the one who need to realise that Cold War is over...
The truth is that you guys are still afraid and would like for Russia to disappear, sorry not gonna happen ;)
Btw, what is the purpose of NATO nowdays anyways?

This is a good post.

NATO has outlived its mission, the Cold War is over and the Soviet Union is gone. Yet the actions of our policy makers has me wondering if they might have a nostalgia for the Cold War. I can not comprehend their reasons for this encroachment on Russia.

It has been said by others that the US led war on Serbia was part of this US/NATO encroachment on Russia. I hope not, but when people talk about moving bases from Germany to Poland, it seems obvious that it is so.

IMHO, our troops should be pulled out of Europe and brought home to secure our southern border with Mexico.




BTW, what is with the Lenin poster on your sig line?

[martinexsquaddie]

well if there is a treaty covering kalingrad going to be bad news for russia :lol:
otherwise its not a problem to anyone in europe more worried about russian getting back on its feet economicaly and politically.
sort things in the west we take for granted checks and balances in the political progress a free and independant press and a lot less poverty
maybe 50 years people will stop worrying about russia. at the moment its like a trailer park full of heavily armed rednecks parked up against the eu
of course europes worried about it :(

[Loco]

http://personnages.free.fr/images/Kant.jpg
The most illustrous citizen of Königsberg by far, it would be a good idea giving his name to his city, so germans would be happy and russians wouldn´t be so suspicious, any way, a man like Kalinin doesn´t deserve giving his name nor a desert village and if russians want that territory helds a russian name, it´s sure they could find any other more accurate. And about EU, well, people can talk whatever they want, but there is no point in Kalinin/Königsberg joining the UE in anyway.

[fdt]

http://personnages.free.fr/images/Kant.jpg
The most illustrous citizen of Königsberg by far, it would be a good idea giving his name to his city, so germans would be happy and russians wouldn´t be so suspicious, any way, a man like Kalinin doesn´t deserve giving his name nor a desert village and if russians want that territory helds a russian name, it´s sure they could find any other more accurate. And about EU, well, people can talk whatever they want, but there is no point in Kalinin/Königsberg joining the UE in anyway. Well, but how do You think it would be properly to name the Kaliningrad after Kant? Kantstadt? Kantburg? Kantberg? Kantgorod? Kantogrod? :D Can't?

[Russian Texan]

BTW, what is with the Lenin poster on your sig line?

I just like getting a "knee jerk" out of some people and it gets even better if they click on it :)