German court convicts man for insulting Islam

[annihilation]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060223/wl_nm/crime_religion_germany_dc_2


A German court on Thursday convicted a businessman of insulting Islam by printing the word "Koran" on toilet paper and offering it to mosques.
The 61-year-old man, identified only as Manfred van H., was given a one-year jail sentence, suspended for five years, and ordered to complete 300 hours of community service, a district court in the western German town of Luedinghausen ruled.
The conviction comes after a Danish newspaper printed cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammad -- sparking violent protests around the world from Muslims who saw the images as sacrilegious and an attack on their beliefs.
Manfred van H. printed out sheets of toilet paper bearing the word "Koran" shortly after a group of Muslims carried out a series of bomb attacks in London in July 2005. He sent the paper to German television stations, magazines and some 15 mosques.
Prosecutors said that in an accompanying letter Manfred van H. called Islam's holy book a "cookbook for terrorists."
He also offered his toilet paper for sale on the Internet at a price of 4 euros ($4.76) per roll, saying the proceeds would go toward a "memorial to all the victims of Islamic terrorism."
The maximum sentence for insulting religious beliefs under the German criminal code is three years in prison.

[Laworkerbee]

Ok that is offensive and in bad taste but does that really warrant jail time?

I mean everyone should be free to be an asshole

[LaoSexMachine]

I don't agree but it's their law their country. Now they need to STFU about our death penalty.

[Weasel]

I don't agree but it's their law their country. Now they need to STFU about our death penalty.
Yes, death penalty is nearly the same as one year of jail. :roll:

[Thor]

Like I've said before, Germany is the most anti-democratic country in the EU. It's in a totally degenerated stage.

[ed316]

But you don't see us here in the states being up in arms about your law concerning "freedom of speech". People in living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[towelie]

pretty stupid decision

[Macs.]

Insulting religious beliefs is a crime, so it be.


Like I've said before, Germany is the most anti-democratic country in the EU. It's in a totally degenerated stage.


Democracy sucks, anway. rofl

[s005288]

The toilet paper idea was good, the jail idea was bad.

[Bob the Drunk]

I would post a reply but I would probably get banned again.

[Thor]

Insulting religious beliefs is a crime, so it be.



Democracy sucks, anway. rofl
Nice suit

http://www.ftd.de/asset/Image/Migration/2005/haider_gr,1.jpg

[Ericsson]

Man !! that as to to the stupidest thing i ever herd
getting 1 year in jail for that...what the **** is wrong whit Germany
it's totally retarded.. where do they sale that toilet paper i will go and by it right now
and by the way i,m also for the return of the dead penalty to my country
all does yellow belies Islamic fundamentalist should get
expelled from Europe ...I challenge any of you to go to a mosque and listen to the
retarded thing that they say or just read the Koran just read it !!!!!!! man
it's so full of disreputable facts...one Iranian toll me that if you read carefully
you will found out that Mohamed was Gay..
anyway all religion are stupid... it makes people narrow minded..

[Kitsune]

1) The statement that Germany is "the most anti-democratic state in the Eu" is complete nonsense. Likewise the comment about its alleged degeneration. People stating such things should heed a certain bible word. Namely, the one with the splinter in your neighbours eye and the beam in your own.
No further comment.

2) About the case: the man was NOT send to jail. The punishment is suspended, meaning that he can go home. He only has to serve time in prison if he repeats the offense within five years. (Offering toilet-paper with the imprint "Koran" on it for sale, that is.)
This verdict was given because the judges regarded his deed not as a satire or a voicing of his own opinion but as a flat offense that is likely to lead to unrest. And this "offending religious beliefs in a way that is likely to start violence and unrest" is a punishable act in Germany. In other words, it's forbidden to behave like a troll. It may be decadent from the Swedish point of view, but that is the way it is. Some internet websites have similiar decadent rules, I have heard.

3) This has nothing to do with American weapon's laws and the habit of certain Europeans to complain about them.

4) It has also nothing to do with any politics of the German government regarding Iran. Or anything else. Judges in Germany are completely independent in their decisions. (This separation of executive and judicative is one of the basic democratic principles, by the way.)

5) My personal take: I don't like it. If I were King of Germany (which would turn Germany into an absolutist monarchy), I would introduce complete freedom of speech like in America. From that moment on everyone could sell toiletpaper with the imprints "Koran", "Bible" or "Dianetics" on it. One could even claim that the Holocaust didn't happen or that the world was created in five days and by ones own grandfather at that. That would lead to protests from Israel and howls of protests from certain groups within Germany, but I wouldn't care. (However, I wouldn't introduce capital punishment nor American weapon's laws, because the first is barbaric and the second plain stupid. In my humble opinion, of course.)
But, alas, I ain't King of Germany.







Not yet, at least...

[Vandervahn]

Nice suit

http://www.ftd.de/asset/Image/Migration/2005/haider_gr,1.jpg


I like the tie, too (but he´s austrian...)

and even though you said before that Germany´s the least democratic nation that doesnt make it true... apart from that anti-discrimination laws don´t exactly have an influence on the quality of a democracy :roll:

[khukuri]

Even I as a muslim see a one year crime as crazy!
Even thou he was an asswhole. A big fine would be okay.

[Thor]

I like the tie, too (but he´s austrian...)

and even though you said before that Germany´s the least democratic nation that doesnt make it true... apart from that anti-discrimination laws don´t exactly have an influence on the quality of a democracy :roll:
It's how a society treats it's 'enemies' that defines it's democratic commitment.

What state in the EU is more anti-democratic then? I think Austria is slightly less bad. Someone mentioned Poland before but I can't really see them throwing people in jail for 'insulting' muslims.

[Kitsune]

He didn't get one year for christs sake. He got a SUSPENDED punishment of one year. That means he can go home. If he commits the same crime again within the next five years, ONLY THEN he has to serve time. (He has to do 300 hours of community service, however. That's something like one to two afternoons of four hours each, per week, for the next one year. That might help him to get the urge to print something on toiletpaper under control).
It's not that easy to get send to prison in Germany. And if, the punishments are usually quite mild.

[Kitsune]

Thor wrote:
What state in the EU is more anti-democratic then?
@Thor: How about Sweden? Not? Are you sure? Prove it. What is so much better in Sweden?

"Anti-democratic" means "actively against democracy". That's a ludicrous statement about Germany. "Un-democratic"...that would be a better choice of words and would imply that in Germany the people cannot take part in the choosing of their governments. Analysing it, the conclusion is "wrong statement". In Germany they can. And the influence of economic elements, while not zero, is far lower than in the "super-democracy" USA.
The next attempt might be to say, that the punishments are too severe in Germany. But even before one decides wether this statement is true, one can remark that this, even if it would be so, has nothing to do with how democratic Germany is. An absolutist monarchy (zero% democratic) can have mild laws, while a hypothetical direct democracy in which every law is not passed by a parliament but by a direct vote of the people (in other words, this state could rigthfully claim to be more democratic than any other that exists on the planet right now...hey it could even claim to be the only REAL democracy in existence) could feature brutal and draconic punishments.
And as far as the statement is concerned: it's wrong. Germany's laws are, compared to those of other states in the EU, mild. Prisoners are treated well. Actually it's one of the best states of the EU to get incarcerated in. (With the possible exception of Sweden of course).

[Laworkerbee]

He didn't get one year for christs sake. He got a SUSPENDED punishment of one year. That means he can go home. If he commits the same crime again within the next five years, ONLY THEN he has to serve time. (He has to do 300 hours of community service, however. That's something like one to two afternoons of four hours each, per week, for the next one year. That might help him to get the urge to print something on toiletpaper under control).
It's not that easy to get send to prison in Germany. And if, the punishments are usually quite mild.

300 hours of picking up garbage for being an asshole sounds fair, I guess

[soprano]

HEy the guy in vermont only got 60 days in jail for rapeing a young girl and this has to spend a year in jail.WHAts the WOrld comeing to?????????

[JoaMei]

HEy the guy in vermont only got 60 days in jail for rapeing a young girl and this has to spend a year in jail.WHAts the WOrld comeing to?????????

Did you read the Posts above? He will only go to Jail if he does it again.

[evanfitz]

300 hours of community service sounds pretty good.

[One?]

Be anti-semtic and get 1 year jail, insult islam and get 1 year jail. I don't see a problem with that. Good call germany.

[shocker1]

I guess the Hindus will want all beef eaters arrested too. That guy should come to America and sell his toilet paper.:)

[Alphonse]

I guess the Hindus will want all beef eaters arrested too. That guy should come to America and sell his toilet paper.:)
ONLY Hindus don't eat beef. They don't object to others eating beef.

[perdurabo]

Someone mentioned Poland before but I can't really see them throwing people in jail for 'insulting' muslims.
well for saying that our president is like inqisition you can go to jail, also all gay parades etc are now forbidden(not officially but unoficially they don't get permiosion), they even wan't to forbid in-vitro :roll: :roll: :roll:

[annihilation]

Be anti-semtic and get 1 year jail, insult islam and get 1 year jail. I don't see a problem with that. Good call germany.
How does either of those 2 acts if non violent warrent jail / probation time of any sort. Also what about insulting christianity, do you get jail / probation time for that?

[quorthon]

Oh teh noes!!! The koran on toilet paper... by the prophets beard...this is a grave insult... off with his head!

Would he have got the same sentence if he printed the Bible/Dianetics/Edda/whatever instead? I don't think so.

Politically correctness gone berserk...

[Kitsune]

How does either of those 2 acts if non violent warrent jail / probation time of any sort. Also what about insulting christianity, do you get jail / probation time for that?
According to German law, the act to blatantly offend a religion in a manner that can give rise to unrest and violence is a punishable offense (especially if someone seems to want to achieve just that). The respective paragraph is old and has not been created recently because of the cartoon affair or something. In other words, if someone would offer to sell toiletpaper with the imprint "Jesus Christ" on it over the Internet he would have broken the same law. And could therefore been punished the same way. And if anyone feels injustly treated he can make an appeal before a regional supreme court, and, if that's not enough, before the federal supreme court. Only if those say that you would be an a-hole, it's final.

[Angel]

Yeah what about Christianity. It is one of the most oppressed religions in the world and beat up religions and yet the Germans go crazy over some old guy insulting the Muslims? let him...

[Bluezoo]

According to German law, the act to blatantly offend a religion in a manner that can give rise to unrest and violence is a punishable offense (especially if someone seems to want to achieve just that). The respective paragraph is old and has not been created recently because of the cartoon affair or something. In other words, if someone would offer to sell toiletpaper with the imprint "Jesus Christ" on it over the Internet he would have broken the same law. And could therefore been punished the same way. And if anyone feels injustly treated he can make an appeal before a regional supreme court, and, if that's not enough, before the federal supreme court. Only if those say that you would be an a-hole, it's final.

Well said Kitsune.

Just curious, who intitiates the Compliant in court when this offense is committed? I mean, is this offense classified in Germany as a private crime where a citizen comes and files a Complaint in court or it is classified as a public crime per se where the State, motu propio initiates the Complaint and files the Information in court?

Regards,

Blue

[annihilation]

According to German law, the act to blatantly offend a religion in a manner that can give rise to unrest and violence is a punishable offense (especially if someone seems to want to achieve just that). The respective paragraph is old and has not been created recently because of the cartoon affair or something. In other words, if someone would offer to sell toiletpaper with the imprint "Jesus Christ" on it over the Internet he would have broken the same law. And could therefore been punished the same way. And if anyone feels injustly treated he can make an appeal before a regional supreme court, and, if that's not enough, before the federal supreme court. Only if those say that you would be an a-hole, it's final.


Thanks for the info. On another note, Germany has a ban on scientology (not like i dont agree with that) but how can one "religion" get protection from the law while another "religion" can not?

[Freibier]

Thanks for the info. On another note, Germany has a ban on scientology (not like i dont agree with that) but how can one "religion" get protection from the law while another "religion" can not? Scientology isn't considered a religion here, it's considered as scam.

[annihilation]

Scientology isn't considered a religion here, it's considered as scam.

I do agree its a scam, but most organizations that clam to be a religion are. How will germany distingush the difference.

[Stryker]

Scientology isn't protected in Germany, because the German federal labour court decided, that scientology doesn't act like a religion but like for-profit organization. Also scientology is obeserved by the national intelligence service in some federal states, because they see the danger, that scientology is a threat for the constitutional order of Germany.

[Count Lippe]

Yeah what about Christianity. It is one of the most oppressed religions in the world and beat up religions and yet the Germans go crazy over some old guy insulting the Muslims? let him...

If some cristian feels offended in his beliefs, he can sue those who are responsible, just like that guy, wo most likely was sued by muslims to whom he tried to sell that TP.

[Wodan]

Insulting religious beliefs is a crime, so it be.



Democracy sucks, anway. rofl

quoted for truth, I think most germans will agree here.

[Freibier]

Oh and one of the reasons why he was convicted at all was the fact that he sent the TP to mosques.
If he'd just sold it over the internet, he could've got away with it as satire.
Sending it to the mosques on the other hand was considered a active insult and therefore punishable.

[Vandervahn]

quoted for truth, I think most germans will agree here.

:roll:

Why are you in the JU then if not for the democratic process?

[Wodan]

:roll:

Why are you in the JU then if not for the democratic process?

well IF we are forced to have democracy, then we should at least be ruled by the CSU..

[Count Lippe]

well IF we are forced to have democracy, then we should at least be ruled by the CSU..

You should have joined the DVU, son...:roll:

[Vandervahn]

We arent FORCED into a democracy. It was the will of the people, or need I remind you of the Novemberrevolution and the Weimar Republic? Thats the only reason why the National Socialists could even rise to power: in perfect democratic tradition they were elected because a sufficient number of Germans felt they would represent their political ideas (they certainly weren´t elected because people wished a Tyrant...).

Certainly the Western Occupation powers wouldnt have accepted anything else than a democracy in 1949 - but would the Germans have chosen anything else? The special status of the Nobility was rejected in 1919, and with the fresh impression of the 3rd Reich the Germans would also not have accepted a new "peasant" Dictator (with all those people who had lost everything and were conveniently blaming it on the Nazis).

Today Germany could choose its path on its own, but I´d like you to try and find any significant number of Germans that would prefer an autocracy over the democracy... apart from that, Germany isnt RULED, it is GOVERNED ;)

[Kitsune]

Bluezoo wrote:
Well said Kitsune.

Just curious, who intitiates the Compliant in court when this offense is committed? I mean, is this offense classified in Germany as a private crime where a citizen comes and files a Complaint in court or it is classified as a public crime per se where the State, motu propio initiates the Complaint and files the Information in court?

Regards,

Blue



@Bluezoo:

No, this is actually a public offense. That means that technically the public prosecutors, or state attorneys as Asmerican's call it, have the duty to persecute anyone who breaks that law.
However, given the nature of this very special kind of law violation, which is to offend someone, it is not the most dire of crimes and persecutors may feel that they have better things to do. Especially if no one seems to feel offended the persecutor may have a hard time to make his case...
But in this special case a lot of people did. The toiletpaper selling action did not went unnoticed (it happened last summer) and finally it was decided to put it to trial. The good thing is, they got over with it fast...within one day the verdict was past. Better than wasting our tax money in a months long affair over some printed toiletpaper.

[Kitsune]

@Vandervahn:

I think that Wodan wanted just to point out the Bavarian perspective of things. I know that it is not always easy, but at least try to tolerate them... ;-)

[Bluezoo]

Thanks Kitsune.

[Prometheus]

And if anyone feels injustly treated he can make an appeal before a regional supreme court, and, if that's not enough, before the federal supreme court. Only if those say that you would be an a-hole, it's final.

Not sure if it's really final then, IMO an appeal at the European supreme court for human rights would be also possible in this case.

[kinghk]

5) My personal take: I don't like it. If I were King of Germany (which would turn Germany into an absolutist monarchy), I would introduce complete freedom of speech like in America.


They have something called hate crime in the US, AFAIK that means that they don't have a total freedom of speech.

[Vandervahn]

Werent there some new US laws against "annoying" on the Internet recently?

[Pan_Grzegorz]

Yes, death penalty is nearly the same as one year of jail. :roll:

What's wrong with death penalty ?

[Count Lippe]

What's wrong with death penalty ?
Read the thread about tookie that some necrophile recently decided to dig out...

[Weasel]

What's wrong with death penalty ?

Nothing. Killing is pure fun. woot

[BarkingSquirrel]

ONLY Hindus don't eat beef. They don't object to others eating beef.Apparently you've forgotten those muslim prisoners in britian who got pork taken completely off the menu for all prisoners since the muslims didn't eat it, to hell with what the other people eat.

[Wodan]

Nothing. Killing is pure fun. woot

woot :D

Have to agree here, same reason why I eat meat.

(I dont really like the taste, but the more meat I eat the more animals will be killed)

[Freibier]

woot :D

Have to agree here, same reason why I eat meat.

(I dont really like the taste, but the more meat I eat the more animals will be killed)
If stupidity would hurt, you'd scream all day

[Wodan]

If stupidity would hurt, you'd scream all day


what a well-balanced predication