[Info request] Future Belgium LPD/LHD

[Mangusta CBT]

I have read that Belgium planned a new LPD/LHD ship, someone have more information ? :hug:

[1Cie GevGn]

Yes. It will be hugely overpriced, hugely ineffective, hugely not compatible with other countries, and in the end sold for a hugely unjustifiably low price.

(As a matter of fact, I don't know anything about it. But I'm not far off, I can tell you ;) )

[Greek soldier]

Is this LPD/LPH going to be from the Netherlands (Royal Schelde - ENFORCER SERIES)??

[Resurrection]

Wtf, now Belgium is getting one? :-(

[sp2c]

Is this LPD/LPH going to be from the Netherlands (Royal Schelde - ENFORCER SERIES)??

yes that was the plan afaik, or something similar but after signing an memorandum of understanding with Damen the Belgian government decided they didn't want it after all and stopped the project

I think there's still a lawsuit going on about it somewhere

[Greek soldier]

Thanks sp2c for the info. I guess the Belgians may opt for the French "Sirocco" variants...

[Mangusta CBT]

Some 3D simulation ?

[Greek soldier]

Royal Schelde ENFORCER SERIES

http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/

[Mangusta CBT]

Wow !! :hug:

[Greek soldier]

Ti ringrazio anche per le novita'!!

Thank you too for the news!!

[sp2c]

here's a blurp I found and translated (so don't bother me about the grammar) can't really find anything else usefull for now


Flahaut blunders and taxpayer ends up paying for it

The sale of two M-frigates of the Dutch avy is for now the end of the line of an incredible sage, of which not all details have been revealed yet. Bart de Wever and Patrick de Grootte have sunk their teeth into this dossier and asked a whole series of concrete question to the appointed minister Flahaut. It is of course clear as daylight that the taxpayer is once again going to have to pay for this ministers bad policy.

What are we talking about?

Under Flahaut the navy has changed it's basic option three times over the course of the past 5 years. The first plan forsaw (among others) the construction of four new coastal minesweepers. The coastal minesweeper-program (KMV) scheduled at a cost of 295 million Euro and in 1994 the maincommision was granted to SKB (an antwerp shipbuilding company). After completing the first fase however the project was cancelled. The Rekenkamer (I dunno how to translate) estimated the cost at that point at 28,293 million euro. Above that came a claim for damages of around 37 million Euro that the main contractor SKB demanded from the Belgian goverment as compensation for breaking the contract. We were informed that the Belgian government has allready been found guilty in this claim. Patrick de Groote asked parliament a series of questions to come up with the precise costs of this KMV program.

The KMV-program was abandoned for a whole new option: the navy no longer needed coastal minesweepers, but a strategic transportship. This project would executed together with Luxembourg and became known as the BLST-project (Belgian-Luxembour Strategic Transportship). The original view of the program was the purchase and redesign of a RoRo-ship (Roll on, Roll off) to dismount troops and aidworkers. The choice for this program was tailor made to the French company Direction Generale des Construction Navales, where Flahaut wanted to place the order. The ministers council stopped him however and demanded a public contract. With the list of burdons that had to be created because of this, Flahaut had to accomidate the wishes of every armycomponant. So the vessel had to accomadate 1700 vehicles, a floating hospital and a complet helicopterdeck, ... the contract was - to the regrets of Flahaut - not won by the French friends, but by the Dutch shipbuilder De Schelde. But because the costs kept rising and reached nearly 250 million euro, the ministers council once again intervened and the whole project was stopped in the beginning of 2003. Consequence of this: a damage claim from the Dutch shipbuilder De Schelde. To avoid this for the time being the procedure of the behemoth was never officially cancelled. About this episode in the saga Patrick de Groote once again asked a number of concrete questions to the apointed ministers. After cancelling the BLST-project the rifle was changed to a different shoulder once again. There was no longer a need for coastal minesweepers, but there also was no more need for a strategic transportship. From now on the army seemed to have a need for frigates. They then started searching and ended up with the Dutch navy that wanted to sell a number of frigates in order to modernize it's own fleet and adjust it to the current international context. According to the Dutch navy the frigates they are about to sell to Belgium were no longer usefull, because they were designed to "timely intercept Soviet nuclear submarines, because of this they were equiped with an advanced, towed sonar. This thread has subsided and the towed sonar is not suited for operations in coastal waters." In other words: the Belgian government is buying frigates that the Dutch government no longer deems usefull. At the same time The Belgian navy is selling it's current frigates to Bulgaria. With the money from this sale the discared Dutch frigates will be modernized by ... the Dutch shipbuilder De Schelde. Again there are a number of questions that can be asked. Is this contract supposed to be a way to have De Schelde drop it's claim about the BLST-project? What are the costs of the modernization? Why choose for frigates that need three times more crew then the current frigates?
These questions have allready been asked by Patrick de Groote.

Conclusion

Flahaut's way of doing business is clearly not with any longtermvision, as a matter of fact there really isn't any vision at all! Like in other dossiers from the military the minister is led by other things then caring for the efficiency of the armed forces.

The lack of knowhow with which one and other has been dealt, calls for revenge. Everything Flahaut touches, turns into a heap of rubble: - instead of 10 modern minesweepers we now have 6 modernized ships and a heavy lawsuit; - instead of a strategic transportship we got a megalomane project that only resulted in a huge lawsuit; - instead of modern frigates we are getting secondhand vessels, that are very expensive to operate and no longer suited for current tasks. What remains is a minister who is incapable and rules his ministry like a sungod. His personal preferences and favoritism are dropping the military in rapid pace from one salesadvanture into anoter. The result is a financial mess which the taxpayer is going to have to pay for. The N-VA wants to bring this to the attention hoping prime minister Verhofstadt will finally find the strenght to end the reign of Flahaut. Now that PS- chairman Di Rupo has sad that he'd personally opened the hunt on the parvenu's ([b]what the hell are those???[b]), this would be the time to act on it.
http://www.politiek.net/hermes/12375

there's some factual errors though so I don't know how accurate it is.

the Karel Doorman frigates for instance do not need 3 times the crew of the Wielingen Frigates (that would be 460 sailors!!!) in fact it needs a little less and it can perform more tasks because of automation. Additionally the frigates aren't old, the oldest one is 10 years old and hasn't even had it's scheduled midlife update, the navy want's those to get them up to speed with the current tasks but our defence minister is allmost as big a screw up as Flahaut is and he just wants to sell them all in exchange of patrolboats which can do the same job a lot cheaper ... god only knows how he figures that'll happen but that's how the man feels and he's the one spending the budget. But it's definately not the navy that want's to get rid of them, they want to redisign them and they are still considered among the best multirole frigates out there so if you absolutely want to have second hand frigates then these are the ones you want.

[solidarnosc]

That "article" is a press statement of the NVA (New-Flemish-Alliance) a small seperatist Flemish party. The M of M-fregat stands for multipurpose so it is nonsende to say it the only thing it can do is chasing soviet subs. The reason the Dutch are selling them is because they need cash not because they are no longer usefull. Even so. It is not because the Dutch can't use them Belgian navy can't use tham. Dutch navy has a new generation of fregates and are keeping 2 Doormans.

[sp2c]

indeed, they've been invaluable in anti drug trafficking operations in the west because they are not bound by brown waters for instance.
one has also been used to supply aid in New Orleans etc. etc. they are very good ships and it's a step up from the Wielingen class for the Belgian navy.

but that's the only article I could find with at least a little credibility)

just sad to see the Belgian gvt waste so many money for no apperant reason, I heard the M frigates won't get goalkeepers because they are too expensive!

[siberian tiger]

Well just a simple question, i thought that LPD is to transport anphibious forces but i have the idea that in Belgium there aren`t Marines!!!!
What forces are going there? Mech Infantry, Para-Commandos....

[dez000]

Para-Commandos do amphibious landings, they did an amphibious assault on Kismayo, Somalia together with the US marines.

[Supe]

Well just a simple question, i thought that LPD is to transport anphibious forces but i have the idea that in Belgium there aren`t Marines!!!!


I suppose Belgium identified a requirement for native sealift capablity to facilitate movement of troops and materiel. A dedicated Marine outfit is not necessary. The Australians have found with the 2 x ex Newport LST's the benefits of owning decent amphibious capability and are now in the process of buying two LHD's. They certainly proved their worth in humanitarian mission to Aceh following the Tsunami and in regional security operations such as the one conducted in the Solomon Islands. There are no Marine units in the ADF structure. I suspect the Belgians will find an LPD handy for peacekeeping/alliance maintaining operations.

[sp2c]

or go for one of the smaller LHD's then you'll be able to embark 10 or so helicopters with 4 helo spots and about 400 paracommando's

[Koen]

@ sp2c, your "article" is not correct at all... the whole context is wrong, if the N-VA hears "Walloon"/"socialist"/"defence spending" in one sentence they flip...
The coastal minehunters/sweepers is a relict of the cold war, then it was important to keep the waterways to Antwerp open for allied shipping, so there was a need for these ships.. the belgian navy had such ships, and needed new ones, so a program was started to make them, but unfortunatelly the cold war ended and the programm was cancelled. This sotry dates from the early '90 and Flahaut has nothing to do with it.

The strategic transportship was at first meant as just a transport ship, not a "Bateau de projection et commandement" or amphibious assault like the "Rotterdam", it would only serve to support amphibuous ops by allies or to ship aid after disasters... but the whole idea was a bit overstretched for the belgian defence.

The M-fregates will have the "Goalkeeper" system, since belgian navy personnel will start training on this system this year.

Belgium has no marines, but the paracommando's have a tradition in this ; Vis in '43, channel islands & walcheren in '44 and kismaayo in '92, they have allways trained for this with the dutch marines "zeekamp".
These guys are in for everything as long as there's action to be expected.