Those Guns Look Familiar

[Skaman]

Many soldiers in the main force of Haitian rebels attempting to overthrow President Jean-Bertrand Aristide are armed with American M-1 and M-14 rifles given to Haiti in the 1980s. The turncoat militia — the Artibonite Resistance Front, formerly known as Aristide's loyal Cannibal Army — is hardly the first foreign military force to get its hands on a stockpile of U.S. weapons. Here are some conflicts of the past few years that the U.S. has unwittingly armed.

Turkey
Turks got 100 Black Hawk and Cobra helicopters from the U.S. before Gulf War I and used them against the Kurds.

Afghanistan
In the 1980s anti-Soviet mujahedin got Stinger missiles and Chinese-made AK-47s, later used by the anti-U.S. Taliban.

Colombia
M-16s that the U.S. gave to the Colombian army in the 1990s to combat drug trafficking are now in the hands of terrorists engaged in human-rights abuses.

Nicaragua
American arms transferred to anti-Sandinista contras in the '80s are being used by active death squads across Central America

Nations need to be more weary of whom they are arming. This problem is not solely an American foreign policy fault, but should be dealt with nonetheless. The ramifications of such economic interests and weapon sales should be taken more seriously.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040308-596162,00.html

[Flagg]

Controls Ineffective in Limiting Canadian Arms Exports
by Ken Epps


Each year the report on the export of Canadian military goods cites the government guidelines used to "closely control" arms exports. Analysis of the 1993 report shows that close control has failed again to prevent Canadian military exports to countries that fall into two guideline categories—countries "involved in or under imminent threat of hostilities," and countries "whose governments have a persistent record of serious violations of the human rights of their citizens."

The latter category includes the qualification "unless it can be demonstrated that there is no reasonable risk that the goods might be used against the civilian population." Because export control decisions are not disclosed, the means by which government officials demonstrate some or no reasonable risk is unknown. However, the qualification demonstrates that the government makes no assessment of the political support that arms shipments of any kind imply for a military known to abuse its own citizens.

An examination of Canadian military exports to the Third World in 1993 reveals that six countries, or one-fifth of the twenty-nine Third World recipients, were directly involved in hostilities during the year. In each country—Bangladesh, Cambodia, India, Kenya, Peru, and Turkey—the internal conflicts, with government troops pitted against rebel or secessionist forces, all began years earlier (see Ploughshares' Armed Conflicts Report 1993).

A parallel examination reveals that over half the Third World recipients of 1993 Canadian arms exports were persistent human rights violators during 1992. In her report on World Military and Social Expenditures, Ruth Leger Sivard lists countries by degree of officially sanctioned violence against citizens during 1992. Sixteen of the Third World recipients of Canadian military goods last year were listed in the top, "frequent" official violence, category. The value of Canadian arms to these countries, which include Saudi Arabia, exceeds $230 million, more than two-thirds of total non-US Canadian military exports for 1993.

The level of promotional activity and government support for the export of Canadian military and dual-use goods to the Third World suggests that Ottawa shares the industry view that the international arms market represents a commercial opportunity to be exploited. Despite statements while in opposition, including the call for "a plan that would encourage Canadian defence companies to adjust and move away from dependence on military production and export," the now governing Liberal Party continues to endorse the scramble for Third World arms sales born of the many suppliers chasing the few expanding markets. Instead of insisting, and assisting, on plans to wind down military production in favour of civilian goods at Cold War facilities like Saint John Shipbuilding and Oerlikon Aerospace, Ottawa is spinning out job dependence on arms sales—and increasing Third World militarization in the bargain.

If Canada is to help rein in the uncontrolled global arms trade that was the subject of much government leader lamentation (including Canadian) after the Gulf War, it is time for Ottawa to show some international leadership by tightening export controls and withdrawing Canada from objectionable markets. An obvious first measure would be to end the use of Canadian military equipment for overseas sales promotion—i.e., the planned sales tours of the Canadian patrol frigates and the loans of other equipment such as ADATS and LAVs—to potential foreign military customers for testing. Additionally, the Liberals could do worse than to re-embrace as a government the 1992 recommendations of the Parliamentary Subcommittee on Arms Export they welcomed while in opposition. These recommendations included developing a public list of countries, based on Project Ploughshares' "Military Commodity Country Control List," that would be the sole legal recipients of Canadian military exports. To be included on the list, a country would need to meet recognized standards, including standards for human rights, that would exclude most of the reported Third World countries to which Canada currently is promoting military goods.

Severely limiting the acceptable market for Canadian arms exports would go a considerable distance toward preventing military goods from reaching human rights violators and countries involved in—or close to—war. The effect would be limited, however, unless greater end-use controls were placed on dual-use equipment. If existing regulations remain unchanged, there is nothing to prevent ongoing sales of Canadian commercial equipment, such as transport helicopters that clearly add to military capacity, to military forces that would not be able to receive military-classified equipment.

While the efforts of industry and government aim to boost Canadian arms sales to the Third World, there are many other suppliers, in the industrialized world and increasingly in the developing world, that are competing for the same markets. And the longer Canadian companies attempt to stay in the running, the more Ottawa will be subject to louder calls for support, including calls to relax export control standards. Success in the world arms market could mean that Canadians will face a future arms export picture shaped by arms sales to many objectionable customers. The time has come for an approach to Canadian military exports that will withdraw Canadian jobs from dependence on supplying repression and conflict.

I encourage you to fix the problem in your own backyard Duci...before focusing on the problems found in other countries....

How does the saying go...."Those that live in glass houses shouldn't open their big F'n mouths?" Or something like that....

Oh by they way...while you're cracking down on Canadian Arms Exports maybe you can give us a hand down here....the first couple of New Zealand Army LAV III units delivered from it's Canadian Manufacturer keep breaking...I hope these lemons come with a money back guarantee

[James]

Those guns were all Deimacos exported from Canada. The USA has a spotless record.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Joking aside I know for a fact that the LAV III is also being sold to Saudi Arabia.

Then there's the redesigned M16 A3s and A4s we have Diemaco to thank for redesigning with their C7s. That we so (brutally) used against poor Saddam's army.

Face it arms trade is the way it is indescriminate. Granola crunching libbys wanting to end it some magical way are just fooling themselves if they think it will bring peace to the world. If America arms dealers hadn't armed them someone else would have, grow up.

[WARPIG]

Bah ha! Nice try dicamus. It is a problem and should be looked at but, don't think for a minute that the rebels would have hesitated even if they showed up with sticks and machetes.

[Durandal]

Yeah, no doubt. These situations happen regardless of what weapons are lying about or even lack of weapons.

The problem is not an armed population. It is a society that is uneducated, never TRULLY known democracy, has a average age of death around 50, 90% of the wealth controlled by .5% of the population, and the amount of corruption that has been tolerated by all "leaders" of that nation...

[Trigger]

haaaaaaaank!!
Can I bring a class action lawsuit against ducimus19?

There was no 'Surgeon General's warning' preceding it and after reading it, I'm paralyzed from the neck up!

[Skaman]

Joking aside I know for a fact that the LAV III is also being sold to Saudi Arabia.

Then there's the redesigned M16 A3s and A4s we have Diemaco to thank for redesigning with their C7s. That we so (brutally) used against poor Saddam's army.

Face it arms trade is the way it is indescriminate. Granola crunching libbys wanting to end it some magical way are just fooling themselves if they think it will bring peace to the world. If America arms dealers hadn't armed them someone else would have, grow up.

That’s like saying an alcoholic will find alcohol anyway, so why can’t I give him a bottle of Whiskey? By doing this, one is only contributing to the problem.

[Trigger]

They give clean needles to junkies don't they?

[Jack Mehoff]

Many soldiers in the main force of Haitian rebels attempting to overthrow President Jean-Bertrand Aristide are armed with American M-1 and M-14 rifles given to Haiti in the 1980s. The turncoat militia — the Artibonite Resistance Front, formerly known as Aristide's loyal Cannibal Army — is hardly the first foreign military force to get its hands on a stockpile of U.S. weapons. Here are some conflicts of the past few years that the U.S. has unwittingly armed.

Turkey
Turks got 100 Black Hawk and Cobra helicopters from the U.S. before Gulf War I and used them against the Kurds.

Afghanistan
In the 1980s anti-Soviet mujahedin got Stinger missiles and Chinese-made AK-47s, later used by the anti-U.S. Taliban.

Colombia
M-16s that the U.S. gave to the Colombian army in the 1990s to combat drug trafficking are now in the hands of terrorists engaged in human-rights abuses.

Nicaragua
American arms transferred to anti-Sandinista contras in the '80s are being used by active death squads across Central America

Nations need to be more weary of whom they are arming. This problem is not solely an American foreign policy fault, but should be dealt with nonetheless. The ramifications of such economic interests and weapon sales should be taken more seriously.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040308-596162,00.html

A bank robber was a U.S. military veteran and I blame U.S. military because they trained him, but they could not "predict" his post-military "occupation".

[WARPIG]

Joking aside I know for a fact that the LAV III is also being sold to Saudi Arabia.

Then there's the redesigned M16 A3s and A4s we have Diemaco to thank for redesigning with their C7s. That we so (brutally) used against poor Saddam's army.

Face it arms trade is the way it is indescriminate. Granola crunching libbys wanting to end it some magical way are just fooling themselves if they think it will bring peace to the world. If America arms dealers hadn't armed them someone else would have, grow up.

That’s like saying an alcoholic will find alcohol anyway, so why can’t I give him a bottle of Whiskey? By doing this, one is only contributing to the problem.

That isn't accurate dicamus.. no one is handing out weapons and ammo. If you want to use an analogy try saying that "even though it is illegal to sell booze to minors, kids get alcohol anyway." "or even though people with prior felony convictions cannot be in posession of a firearm, street gangs and criminals still manage to get hold of more guns than can be tracked." " even though most narcotics and controlled substances are illegal to use..... "

Want some more examples or can you figure it out?

Your are on to a valid point dicamus but your looking at it from the wrong angle boss. Adjust fire. You'll get it.

[Undo]

[quote]Controls Ineffective in Limiting Canadian Arms Exports
by Ken Epps



Hahahahaha. Awesome. Flagg gets a gold star for this one. Ignorant people (Dic) with their "holier than thou" BS attitude.

Hey Dic, maybe you should stop pointing fingers to the south and focus on your education. It seems to be somewhat...lacking.

Sorry. Out of character post, but c'mon.

[Skaman]

They give clean needles to junkies don't they?


Which is wrong. It is only prolonging suffering rather than curbing an issue.

[Skaman]

Controls Ineffective in Limiting Canadian Arms Exports
by Ken Epps


Each year the report on the export of Canadian military goods cites the government guidelines used to "closely control" arms exports. Analysis of the 1993 report shows that close control has failed again to prevent Canadian military exports to countries that fall into two guideline categories—countries "involved in or under imminent threat of hostilities," and countries "whose governments have a persistent record of serious violations of the human rights of their citizens."

The latter category includes the qualification "unless it can be demonstrated that there is no reasonable risk that the goods might be used against the civilian population." Because export control decisions are not disclosed, the means by which government officials demonstrate some or no reasonable risk is unknown. However, the qualification demonstrates that the government makes no assessment of the political support that arms shipments of any kind imply for a military known to abuse its own citizens.

An examination of Canadian military exports to the Third World in 1993 reveals that six countries, or one-fifth of the twenty-nine Third World recipients, were directly involved in hostilities during the year. In each country—Bangladesh, Cambodia, India, Kenya, Peru, and Turkey—the internal conflicts, with government troops pitted against rebel or secessionist forces, all began years earlier (see Ploughshares' Armed Conflicts Report 1993).

A parallel examination reveals that over half the Third World recipients of 1993 Canadian arms exports were persistent human rights violators during 1992. In her report on World Military and Social Expenditures, Ruth Leger Sivard lists countries by degree of officially sanctioned violence against citizens during 1992. Sixteen of the Third World recipients of Canadian military goods last year were listed in the top, "frequent" official violence, category. The value of Canadian arms to these countries, which include Saudi Arabia, exceeds $230 million, more than two-thirds of total non-US Canadian military exports for 1993.

The level of promotional activity and government support for the export of Canadian military and dual-use goods to the Third World suggests that Ottawa shares the industry view that the international arms market represents a commercial opportunity to be exploited. Despite statements while in opposition, including the call for "a plan that would encourage Canadian defence companies to adjust and move away from dependence on military production and export," the now governing Liberal Party continues to endorse the scramble for Third World arms sales born of the many suppliers chasing the few expanding markets. Instead of insisting, and assisting, on plans to wind down military production in favour of civilian goods at Cold War facilities like Saint John Shipbuilding and Oerlikon Aerospace, Ottawa is spinning out job dependence on arms sales—and increasing Third World militarization in the bargain.

If Canada is to help rein in the uncontrolled global arms trade that was the subject of much government leader lamentation (including Canadian) after the Gulf War, it is time for Ottawa to show some international leadership by tightening export controls and withdrawing Canada from objectionable markets. An obvious first measure would be to end the use of Canadian military equipment for overseas sales promotion—i.e., the planned sales tours of the Canadian patrol frigates and the loans of other equipment such as ADATS and LAVs—to potential foreign military customers for testing. Additionally, the Liberals could do worse than to re-embrace as a government the 1992 recommendations of the Parliamentary Subcommittee on Arms Export they welcomed while in opposition. These recommendations included developing a public list of countries, based on Project Ploughshares' "Military Commodity Country Control List," that would be the sole legal recipients of Canadian military exports. To be included on the list, a country would need to meet recognized standards, including standards for human rights, that would exclude most of the reported Third World countries to which Canada currently is promoting military goods.

Severely limiting the acceptable market for Canadian arms exports would go a considerable distance toward preventing military goods from reaching human rights violators and countries involved in—or close to—war. The effect would be limited, however, unless greater end-use controls were placed on dual-use equipment. If existing regulations remain unchanged, there is nothing to prevent ongoing sales of Canadian commercial equipment, such as transport helicopters that clearly add to military capacity, to military forces that would not be able to receive military-classified equipment.

While the efforts of industry and government aim to boost Canadian arms sales to the Third World, there are many other suppliers, in the industrialized world and increasingly in the developing world, that are competing for the same markets. And the longer Canadian companies attempt to stay in the running, the more Ottawa will be subject to louder calls for support, including calls to relax export control standards. Success in the world arms market could mean that Canadians will face a future arms export picture shaped by arms sales to many objectionable customers. The time has come for an approach to Canadian military exports that will withdraw Canadian jobs from dependence on supplying repression and conflict.

I encourage you to fix the problem in your own backyard Duci...before focusing on the problems found in other countries....

How does the saying go...."Those that live in glass houses shouldn't open their big F'n mouths?" Or something like that....

Oh by they way...while you're cracking down on Canadian Arms Exports maybe you can give us a hand down here....the first couple of New Zealand Army LAV III units delivered from it's Canadian Manufacturer keep breaking...I hope these lemons come with a money back guarantee


Source? I just want to take some further reading in this if it is indeed accurate.

[WARPIG]

Try some further thinking instead. Whether or not Flagg's source is credible is about as liable as your source being credible. The point is, there is no justification to point to the US for arms sales issues. It is a problem that everyone is faced with. Whether it is against the law, supported by the government, or ignored completely.. the market and demand for weapons will never get smaller.

I noticed how you pick and choose which analogy or comment you choose to argue. In regards to the several analgies and comments I have provided.. your silence is sufficient.

[Durandal]

They give clean needles to junkies don't they?


Which is wrong. It is only prolonging suffering rather than curbing an issue.

That is not what they are saying Vancouver. The spread of Hep C and HIV is down as is the rate of overdoses. Keep in mind also that this program is not ONLy shared needles but superized use. Drug use is down according to interviews I have head with the Mayor (former city coroner and police chief).

His argument is that you can pump as much money into fighting drugs as you want and it will never completely solve the problem and that the fight should be three fold. Education, Control, Safe Use (IF you are going to use it). They are preparing to go as far as to POSSIBLY intorduce a City Heroin facility with the expressed intent of driving the pushers ut of business.

My opinion on the whole matter is mixed. I think providing clean needles is as important as providing condoms to the public at large, BUT I have to see independent (and unbiased) reports that support his claim that their rather radical (the first in North America) attempts help...

[Beowulf]

They give clean needles to junkies don't they?

Baaaziiing!

Edit: regardless of the merits of the program the response hilarious

[Midtown]

if they want arms, they are going to get them one way or another, we just have to hope we can aim better.

[Haiw]

[quote]Controls Ineffective in Limiting Canadian Arms Exports
by Ken Epps



Hahahahaha. Awesome. Flagg gets a gold star for this one. Ignorant people (Dic) with their "holier than thou" BS attitude.

Hey Dic, maybe you should stop pointing fingers to the south and focus on your education. It seems to be somewhat...lacking.

Sorry. Out of character post, but c'mon.
*points west*
One thing's for sure; we ain't guilty of this.



Not in the last place because we don't have any weapons manufacturers. :P

[WARPIG]

[quote]Controls Ineffective in Limiting Canadian Arms Exports
by Ken Epps



Hahahahaha. Awesome. Flagg gets a gold star for this one. Ignorant people (Dic) with their "holier than thou" BS attitude.

Hey Dic, maybe you should stop pointing fingers to the south and focus on your education. It seems to be somewhat...lacking.

Sorry. Out of character post, but c'mon.
*points west*
One thing's for sure; we ain't guilty of this.



Not in the last place because we don't have any weapons manufacturers. :P
*points at his sig quote*

[Flagg]

Here's the source of my cut and paste:

http://perc.ca/PEN/1995-07-08/s-epps.html

More recent Canadian Arms Export data:

http://www.ploughshares.ca/content/MONITOR/monj03f.html

http://www.ploughshares.ca/content/MONITOR/monm02g.html

http://www.ploughshares.ca/content/MONITOR/monm98a.html

I found the bits about large arms sales to Saudi Arabia quite interesting.....as well as smaller discrete sales to such wonderful countries as Zimbabwe.

Maybe consider writing some emails to your local Canadian MPs about stopping this horrible Canadian problem rather than forcing us to read your constant ramblings on "The World According To Ducimus"

PS: Please send more Canucks to fix our broken Canadian LAV IIIs..they're still broken

[Haiw]

[quote]Controls Ineffective in Limiting Canadian Arms Exports
by Ken Epps



Hahahahaha. Awesome. Flagg gets a gold star for this one. Ignorant people (Dic) with their "holier than thou" BS attitude.

Hey Dic, maybe you should stop pointing fingers to the south and focus on your education. It seems to be somewhat...lacking.

Sorry. Out of character post, but c'mon.
*points west*
One thing's for sure; we ain't guilty of this.



Not in the last place because we don't have any weapons manufacturers. :P
*points at his sig quote*
If you're refering to the flee-ing one; you should be ashamed of poor quote knowledge... it's from Monty Python!

[Sixgun Symphony]

Many soldiers in the main force of Haitian rebels attempting to overthrow President Jean-Bertrand Aristide are armed with American M-1 and M-14 rifles given to Haiti in the 1980s. The turncoat militia — the Artibonite Resistance Front, formerly known as Aristide's loyal Cannibal Army — is hardly the first foreign military force to get its hands on a stockpile of U.S. weapons. Here are some conflicts of the past few years that the U.S. has unwittingly armed.

So the Haitian government got M-1 and M-14 rifles. What of it?


Turkey
Turks got 100 Black Hawk and Cobra helicopters from the U.S. before Gulf War I and used them against the Kurds.

Turkey is a member of NATO. That means they are your allies too. Maybe you ought to ask why NATO still exists when the Cold War has been over for more than a decade now.

Afghanistan
In the 1980s anti-Soviet mujahedin got Stinger missiles and Chinese-made AK-47s, later used by the anti-U.S. Taliban.

Must I remind you of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan? Should I mention the Cold War too?

Colombia
M-16s that the U.S. gave to the Colombian army in the 1990s to combat drug trafficking are now in the hands of terrorists engaged in human-rights abuses.

We should be helping the Columbian Army to fight the scourge of the narco-traffickers and marxist insurgents. Of course there will be some rifles captured by narco-traffickers and marxist insurgents but that is minor compared to the good that is done by helping the Columbian Army.

Nicaragua
American arms transferred to anti-Sandinista contras in the '80s are being used by active death squads across Central America

Do you mean anti-communist death squads? You must think that the marxist insurgents are the good guys

Nations need to be more weary of whom they are arming. This problem is not solely an American foreign policy fault, but should be dealt with nonetheless. The ramifications of such economic interests and weapon sales should be taken more seriously.

This is nothing more than a bash America thread. You should be focusing on the problems you got at home.

[Merik]

Proven fact that Russia, France, and Germany sold more weapons combined than the US did to Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war. How many times have we been down this road already douchebag? By keeping the subject dragging on and on your losing more and more credibility(if you still have any).

[WARPIG]

[quote]Controls Ineffective in Limiting Canadian Arms Exports
by Ken Epps



Hahahahaha. Awesome. Flagg gets a gold star for this one. Ignorant people (Dic) with their "holier than thou" BS attitude.

Hey Dic, maybe you should stop pointing fingers to the south and focus on your education. It seems to be somewhat...lacking.

Sorry. Out of character post, but c'mon.
*points west*
One thing's for sure; we ain't guilty of this.



Not in the last place because we don't have any weapons manufacturers. :P
*points at his sig quote*
If you're refering to the flee-ing one; you should be ashamed of poor quote knowledge... it's from Monty Python!

I mean my quote.. sorry for not being clear.
To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915) I was referring to the comment about ...

*points west*
One thing's for sure; we ain't guilty of this.



Not in the last place because we don't have any weapons manufacturers. :P

[Resevoir Hogs]

This is nothing more than a bash America thread. You should be focusing on the problems you got at home.

Uhhh ya that's what Ducimus does

I find you ignore it long enough it becomes like that annoying background sound on an old TV.

There are certain things people can count on to happen. Sun rises in the East sets in the west. Viruses mutate to become immune to our immunity to them. Ducimus critisizes the closest and strongest ally and defender of his nation and preaches his pascifist granola crunching ways to an audience of internet folk who don't care.