Could Japan invade Hawaii during ww2,

[Jeremiah]

Could Japan have taken the hawaiian islands during the attack on pearl harbor, And if they did manage to take the islands how would this effect the outcome of the pacific war. discuss

[soprano]

Not sure i know to much about the japanese force at the time or if they had assault ships to land obviously they wanted to cripple the pacific fleet to slow the eventual retaliation of the US forces.I've always heard and believed that japan needed the oil we were not selling them so they could carry on with there conquest of the pacific.

My sister went to pearl harbor 2 years ago and did the whole tour i went last year and took the regualar tour when she went she said the guide had mentioned the japanese didnt destroy the oil wells there in hawa!! because they were not smart enough or just didnt have the oppurtunity.

I think though they wanted us to fight them on there own turf and defeat us there that way once we retreated they could biuld up there forces and then have there way with the US but speaking of actually takeing hawaii at the time of pearl harbor i dont think it was possible because they had there forces occupied elswhere i really believe they would have come back to hawaii if the US was defeated!

[Asheren]

Yes they would be able to do it. Problem was that carriers weren't there. It would make US operations much more difficult but still all books i read about it say it woulbe be almost impossible to invade US main land due to extremly long supply lines. Propably they wouldn't be even able to hold it for extendend period of time.

[duck]

At that time it would have been a waste of Japanese resources. What they needed was oil and other commodities and those were available in SE Asia. I also believe it was necessary to take Wake and Midway first. American subs and planes operating from those bases could have wrecked havoc on an invasion fleet.

[Reaver180]

No, they wouldn't have been able to do that. During Pearl Harbor they utilised the maximum of their naval air arm and needed nearly all of their replenishment and logistics ships for that. Adding to that, an alert Pearl Harbor in the case of an invasion presented a sufficiently large defense to any invasion.

[a deadly fart]

I thought the Japanese was only looking to cripple the Pacific fleet and force the US to sue for peace with Japan with the ideal that the US would rather focus on the European front. So doubtful that they would have wanted to invade Hawaii. If they had such a hard time holding parts of Alaska (or was it some islands near Alaska) I doubt they would seriosly think of moving on Hawaii. That and troops would have been better spent pushing the US and Europeans out of Australia and to push on in China in an attempt to link up with Axis forces.

[ogukuo72]

No, they wouldn't have been able to do that. During Pearl Harbor they utilised the maximum of their naval air arm and needed nearly all of their replenishment and logistics ships for that. Adding to that, an alert Pearl Harbor in the case of an invasion presented a sufficiently large defense to any invasion.

I think Reaver is right. It's an "either or" kind of thing. The Japanese could have invaded and occupied Oahu, but they would not have been able to support their Southeast Asia operations and their Philippine operations. Something would have to give, especially in terms of logistics and air support. Southeast Asia was more important in Dec 1941, because that's where all the resources Japan needed were.

[Asheren]

It deppends remmember that japanese had such ideas like towing supplies for troops behind warships. They had enough forces to invade in short time after pearl harbour but not to hold it, they could land and then try to peace with US in a rule we leave hawaii you leave something else.

[ogukuo72]

If the Japanese had sent troops to invade Hawaii, it would not have enough for the Philippines operation. Much of its forces were tied up in China and in Southeast Asia.

[duck]

I just read some article on the battle of Midway that included a mention of Japan planning an invasion of Hawai in late fall 1942.

[Para]

If when they struck Pearl Harbour in 1941 they had also put a large force ashore then they might just have pulled it off. Like many of these things it is always full of so many ifs and buts

[ed316]

No. A big invasion force will be detected and the Pac fleet will mobolise to meet it.

[ogukuo72]

Ed is right. Most probably. Just an interesting titbit: the Japanese troop convoy from Formosa (Taiwan) that was to invade Malaya was detected by the US Naval Intelligence, but not the First Carrier Strike Force.

[KEEPER0311]

Yes they would be able to do it. Problem was that carriers weren't there. It would make US operations much more difficult but still all books i read about it say it woulbe be almost impossible to invade US main land due to extremly long supply lines. Propably they wouldn't be even able to hold it for extendend period of time.
Well the japanese werent always all to concerned about supporting troops that they had landed on islands. In many causes soldiers were landed without any real means of resupply.

[Gav]

No. A big invasion force will be detected and the Pac fleet will mobolise to meet it.

Thiere would have been no Fleet left, if the Japanese had launched a land assualt immediatly after the air attack thay would have anighalated the already battered and totaly suprised forces. Of course holding any ground after any regrouping by the US and its Alies would have been a problem.

I imagine that not destroying the oil on the island was not an accident and may shed light on what plans the Japs had in stall for Pearl.

[ed316]

Thiere would have been no Fleet left, if the Japanese had launched a land assualt immediatly after the air attack thay would have anighalated the already battered and totaly suprised forces. Of course holding any ground after any regrouping by the US and its Alies would have been a problem.

I imagine that not destroying the oil on the island was not an accident and may shed light on what plans the Japs had in stall for Pearl.


To do an amphibious landing you have to get close enough to the beach. You got to have supply ships of every kind. Japan didn't have over the horizon amphibious capability. Did they even have Higgens type boat?

A fleet to conquered Hawaii will be vastly more then the one that was sent to Pearl Harbor.

[Para]

America failed to notice a dirty great battle fleet approaching Hawaii, now if they brought a number of troopships with them and landed the troops from large barges along the coast then with the air support from their carriers they just might have pulled it off. Now America would also had a problem in supplying Hawaii from the mainland with a large Japanese force around the islands and fighting on the Island. Like so many things it is just speculation

[Para]

Ed136 how do you think the Japanese captured the all the other large island chains in the Pacific. All they would need was ammunition the food they would have taken from the locals, they would go all day on a handful rice some thing the Allied forces would not do.

[ed316]

Ed136 how do you think the Japanese captured the all the other large island chains in the Pacific. All they would need was ammunition the food they would have taken from the locals, they would go all day on a handful rice some thing the Allied forces would not do.

They didn't really capture most of it. Just landed there with no resistance. To take Hawaii you are going to have a big force. People on land would see it.

How would they resupply their troops when the bullets run out? Look at when Marines went to take Japanes held islands. The defenders knew what was comming. You have to have battleships to doften up targets. Besides the carrier fleets was not even in Pearl..

Marines who fought the Japanese sometime went days without eating and they fought through it.

[ogukuo72]

I've been to Oahu before, and it's not the easiest terrain to fight over. It's very broken, with high and steep volcano slopes and narrow passes that could be very easily defended. The Japanese would likely find themselves in big trouble.

Remember, in the first months of the war, when the Japanese were at their most combat effective, and swept Allied forces away, they had the most difficulty with the American forces on Wake Island and on the Philippines. That's where their offensive fell behind schedule. If they committed to invading and holding a faraway island, they will likely be making a strategic mistake.

[Gav]

[quote=ogukuo72]I've been to Oahu before, and it's not the easiest terrain to fight over. It's very broken, with high and steep volcano slopes and narrow passes that could be very easily defended. The Japanese would likely find themselves in big trouble.

You may be correct but it would be the japanese that would then be defending if they took the island.

The Americans would not have defenses for these areas in place. An air attack wasnt even in there mind let alone a full scale seabourne land force

[Mastermind]

I think that a very bold invasion of Oahu might have just been pulled off. but, let us not forget the drubbing the Jap invasion forces recieved at Wake. although they took the island they were stunned to find only a hand full of Marines and construction workers gave them a pretty hard time of it. I know the PH assault was pre-Wake, but they very well might have underestimated the strength of the american forces. However, they did not underestimate the Phillipine US forces and went through them like feces through a goose. My speculation on the matter is a musing of the concept "What If" they had attacked with invasion at Pearl first and did a holding action on the Phillipines. Certainly Mac was not going to be in any condition to harm any Jap communications for some time. The thousands of infantry used in the Phillipine operation could have almost certainly takne Hawaii considering the damage the US fleet and Air Corps recieved after the initial attack. Also, it is odd the Japanese Navy had such a habit of hitting and running (I'm thinking of the PH attack, the Aleution fiasco, the Port Moresby attack, and the Leyte Gulf miracle). The army was much more tenacious. I consider the disaster at Midway a complete failure of the Japanese Naval commanders on scene...they completely lost sight of their original goal of drawing the American carriers out to fight, by their enthusiastic attack on the island itself.

[ogukuo72]

I think the American forces on the ground gave a good account of themselves against the Japanese in the Philippines. The problems lay with the American commanders' decisions to abandon much of the grounds, and instead defend the few island fortresses in the Bay of Manila.

[Mastermind]

Yes, in looking over the history of the defense of the Phillipines, I had to conclude Macarthur was not the commander his reputation displayed. His behavior later in Korea at Inchon gave away his nervousness under fire. The man was a great administrator..but as a tacticion, he was a miserable failure. Retaking the Phillipines was something of a waste of men and material, aside from the political advantages. It certainly did nothing to help the people of the Phillipines nor to shorten the war...in fact, it may actually had had the reverse effect on the war, draining vital supplies and men from the original objective, destruction of Japan proper. It sure saved Big Mac's reputation in the Phillipines, though...and he really was one to love getting his reputation massaged...too bad it cost so many Americans and Phillipinos their lives.

[ogukuo72]

Yes, in looking over the history of the defense of the Phillipines, I had to conclude Macarthur was not the commander his reputation displayed. His behavior later in Korea at Inchon gave away his nervousness under fire. The man was a great administrator..but as a tacticion, he was a miserable failure. Retaking the Phillipines was something of a waste of men and material, aside from the political advantages. It certainly did nothing to help the people of the Phillipines nor to shorten the war...in fact, it may actually had had the reverse effect on the war, draining vital supplies and men from the original objective, destruction of Japan proper. It sure saved Big Mac's reputation in the Phillipines, though...and he really was one to love getting his reputation massaged...too bad it cost so many Americans and Phillipinos their lives.

Hmm. Interesting points. I guess there's always two sides to Big Mac (haha! :lol: Good one!).

He did pull off some strategically impressive operations, like Inchon and the island hopping campaign in South Pacific.

At the same time, he did make strategically disastrous mistakes, such as in Philippines 1941 when he decided to abandon most of Luzon to the Japanese despite the fact that American and Philippine troops had been doing well up to that point (he might have some reason, but not many historians seemed to have explored this part of history). In Korea, after the huge successes of Inchon and the UN counter-offensives in 1950, he failed utterly to anticipate and counter the Chinese intervention in the winter of 1950.

I think MacArthur had sound strategic reasons to retake the Philippines. Taking it did effectively cut Japan off from Southeast Asia, and the resources it desperately needed to fight a war. It might also be argued that the submarine campaign of winter 1944/5 achieved pretty much the same results for far less casualties, but there's no way Allied planners could have known that in Spring 1944.

Another good reason for fighting in the Philippines in 1944, was also that it forced the Japanese to fight there, away from the Pacific. With its larger land mass, it was easier for the Americans to fight there then the confined space of the Pacific Islands. If the Japanese had not been forced to fight in the Philippines, how much more bloody would the Pacific Island campaigns have been.

Finally, there's the post-war period to think about. The US never claimed to be a colonial power, but the Philippines was a colony in all but name. To reclaim legitimacy with the Philippine people, it was important for the US to retake the Philippines from Japan. MacArthur probably realised this, even if he did not said so explicitly. The moves he made upon his return to the Philippines had all the hallmarks of a Roman Emporer returning to claim his lands.

[totchan]

Taking Hawaii would have been possible. After reading At Dawn We Slept one understands the lack of equipment in the pacific. once pearl would be taken the oil storage and facilities would help Japan in the same way it enabled Us forces to continue fighting with out having to pull back to the west coast. Midway and wake were wholely useless in doing much damage as without surface forces they barely controlled the area in range of their meager fighter forces. Pre war treties kept their arms levels very low. Only immediate threat of war got half a squadron of F4Fs sent to wake. Only knowledge of immenent attack got more equipment for Midway.

While the Enterprise actually approaching Pearl at time of attack Her aircraft were attempting to land during attack . Had Japan attacked pearl to stay sinking enterprise would have been easy. Saratoga I think was on teh west coast but without being able to berefueled from Pearl steaming ranges would be vastly curtailed.

I a not sure of West coast fuel stocks but I doubt their immediate availability.

As far as ground forces go I don't think there was much more than a Division on the Islands. Weapons and Ammo were not spread around the Islands to repel invasion.

As far as landing craft the Japanese never had dedicated boats like the higins ,LST,LCM orLVTs they used launches from what I remember. possibly armoured up front.

As to Mcarthur HE fouled up by the numbers in the Phillipines. Weapons stores in places like Cavite were lost or blown in place. like many other armies he fought in the way he was taught. roads were often defended while enemy troops simply flanked defenders. He had almost a week before Japan attacked yet he was made 1 of only 5 five star generals and was a holder of the MOH. Likely these things plus politiacal connections and his availability kept him from a court Martial like Kimmel. But he did learn fast and while the return may have been unnecessary to the ovrall conduct of the war Its political ramifications can't be over looked. The phillipines was a major base for US orcs during flareups during cold war.

My two cents

[Mastermind]

On invasion of the Phillipines: I think the Japanese forces there wre pretty much contianed as an effective fighting force without the invasion. The US fleets at the time of Lete invasion were overwhelming and the Japanese navy had already been substancially reduced as a viable threat to US strategic plans. A holding action (fake invasion...small incursions, etc)) rather than a massive landing might have been helpful if necessary at all. I don't see any way the Japanese could have transferred masses of troops from the Phillipines to smaller island campaigns since they had no way of knowing which islands the US would attack next and once the US attack on any target island was underway, no reinforcement fleet could possibly get through withour extreme hazard.

On invasion of Hawaii: The oil stocks there could have greatly helped the Japanese, indeed. But, I doubt it could be considered worth the costs...really unknown...because the prestige of landing and taking Hawaii certainly would have been worth it. However, I doubt the USa forces would have allowed the oil stocks to be captured...porbably would have dynamited it first. Also, I believe I have read there was dissappointment in the Japanese command that the tank farms had not been hit and there was strong argument to launch another attack with the sole purpose of destroying the oil. This merely displays the Japanese had no intention of invading, anyway (IMHO).

[little fatso]

my 2 cents:

-the U.S. aircraft carries could not come to pearl harbour if the japs landed....
-the damaged ships would be either salvaged or destroyed by the japs....
-meaning the carriers would have to go somewhere else up-north....
-or risk loss be jap ships around pearl....
-meaning they would not be able to support the invasion of midway in time....
-meaning they would have no real naval way to support austraila....
-meaning it would have probably been invaded by the japs.

the whole pacific could have been lost.

[Mastermind]

Little Fatso...that was about 4cents worth- I think you are probably right on your assessments.

[totchan]

The Japanese never intended to invade Pearl. The whole point was to give other fleet elements and army units time to consolidate SE asian natural resources which Japan lacked. Tehperiod expected from The Pearl attack was 6 months. The Japanese wrongly believed once they controled the resources they could sue for favorable peace. the whole point of even fighting the US was over Roosevelts attempts to impede raw materials from reaching Japan. Yammamoto's paln although conceived in 1940 was not put into action until early months of 41.

ALthough Yammamoto had likely the best understanding of America industrial capabilities most on the war council knew its true size. Only cultural misconceptions hindered truly understanding US response to forein attack especially from a non white nation seen as inferior.

[duck]

Again wondering: What natural resources were there at Pearl/Hawaii? The Japanese troops fighting for control of Malaysia and Singapore were inferior in numbers to their Allied opponents and with Singapore in Allied hands any Japanese fleet aiming for Indonesia and ultimately Australia would have been severely delayed or even defeated.

The Midway operation was only started once SE Asia was firmly in Japanese hands and more to establish a defensive perimeter, I believe. If Japan had taken Port Moresby and isolated Australia, who knows...

[little fatso]

Again wondering: What natural resources were there at Pearl/Hawaii? The Japanese troops fighting for control of Malaysia and Singapore were inferior in numbers to their Allied opponents and with Singapore in Allied hands any Japanese fleet aiming for Indonesia and ultimately Australia would have been severely delayed or even defeated.

The Midway operation was only started once SE Asia was firmly in Japanese hands and more to establish a defensive perimeter, I believe. If Japan had taken Port Moresby and isolated Australia, who knows...

the natural resource was oil.....and lost of it enough for the whole pacific fleet, the japs were supposed to have destroyed the emence oil and fuel dumps near pearl in the 3rd wave attack. This attack was called off for the reason of concern about the pilots fatigue begining to show. If the 3rd wave when forward....the US would be in a sticky situation.

but the midway op yes you are right....but if the fuel was destroyed or pearl was taken, there would be no south pacific fleet.