Shotguns

[XASA]

I've a Mossberg 590 and never, never experienced any problems with it. I'd be interested in hearing from others their opinion of it and other combat shotguns, especially the new Benelli.

[bindingcleft]

Has anyone used a duckbill? If so, what's the difference in recoil. What's the lifetime of the duckbill choke?

[Legion]

Who has what and what do you like?

I just put a Winchester Model 1300 Walnut Field 12ga. on layaway for dove season. I've shot old Model 12's in the past and they seem to do pretty well.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/images/512917m.jpg

[Frens]

here is my Anti Zombies Shotgun ;)

http://snafu.altervista.org/HPIM1105.JPG
Franchi PA8

[Legion]

here is my Anti Zombies Shotgun ;)

http://snafu.altervista.org/HPIM1105.JPG
Franchi PA8

Silly zombies! I hear in Land of the Dead they figure out how to use weapons.

[HoboWithAK]

Nova 12 gauge 24" in Max Hardwood. I like it because it was cheap, it is very reliable, durable, and chambers all sizes of 12G. Recoil is a wee bit stiff, though.

[Legion]

Nova 12 gauge 24" in Max Hardwood. I like it because it was cheap, it is very reliable, durable, and chambers all sizes of 12G. Recoil is a wee bit stiff, though.

Is it accurate? From the little I've read the guns that are chambered for the 3 1/2 inch shells have trouble with the 2 3/4 and 3 inch stuff. Or maybe it's just Mossbergs. I had a 24" Mossberg 835 Utli-Mag on layaway, and found out it was primarily a turkey gun and had problems with groups with the 3 and 2 3/4 inch shells. From what I read it was very accurate with the magnum shell but hurt the shooter just a bit less than the bird.

[TuNeRsHaRk]

Saiga 12 :P

http://www.krebscustom.com/RawPhotos/10-25-04/krebssaiga12conversion.jpg

[Yarrick2]

for me it's a toss up between the USAS-12 and the SPAS-12 p-)

[JTAR7242]

http://img79.echo.cx/img79/2917/m1014f6cq.jpg

M1014 JSCS (Benelli M4 Super 90)

[Former Gold Falcon]

12 gauge double barreled coachgun.

Do them with "Style"!

T.

[ibstolidude]

that Super 90M4 comes with a shorter b. w/integrated fore grip and collapse stock - it is great.

[Seraphim]

+1 for Benelli M4 Super 90.

[ebola.EOD]

Franchi PA8
http://www.berettadefence.com/images/PA8E_maxi.jpg

Pump action rules :)

[Otsoa]

I have one of the Charle Daly pumps and so far I have had no problems using 2 3/4 or 3 inch shells. I have put through all sorts of loads from light bird shot to 000 buck to slugs and no problems yet. Mainly got it for a camp/truck gun. If I get another pump then it will be a Remmy 870 due to the amount of accessories that are available for it.

Here is a link to a pic of the Charles Daly model that I have http://www.charlesdaly.com/images/firearms/shotguns/pump/large/Fld%20Slug%20Tactical.jpg

[gaijinsamurai]

I've got a Browning Auto-5 for hunting and a Remington 870 for hunting zombies.

[HoboWithAK]

Nova 12 gauge 24" in Max Hardwood. I like it because it was cheap, it is very reliable, durable, and chambers all sizes of 12G. Recoil is a wee bit stiff, though.

Is it accurate? From the little I've read the guns that are chambered for the 3 1/2 inch shells have trouble with the 2 3/4 and 3 inch stuff. Or maybe it's just Mossbergs. I had a 24" Mossberg 835 Utli-Mag on layaway, and found out it was primarily a turkey gun and had problems with groups with the 3 and 2 3/4 inch shells. From what I read it was very accurate with the magnum shell but hurt the shooter just a bit less than the bird.

I haven't patterned with the bird/buck/00 or grouped with slugs, but i've had no trouble keeping everything on target, and i'm on beat with 2 3/4 and 3" number 8 when I shoot clays.

Remember, the Nova is a do-all when it comes to shells. Some magnum shotguns are not rated or even designed to chamber 2 3/4 or 3" and therefor you may have trouble with them.

A little more on the Nova i'll say. It is a little bit heavier than a non-synthetic 870, handles better than a 1300 (in my opinion), and does kick a bit because the poly stock is hollow. However, you can fix that with aftermarket pads or Benelli's mercury tube recoil system. The sights on it are bead and fiber wire, which makes it very easy to aim for me. Usually, I don't even need to check the bead, looking at the fiber optic tip has kept me on the skeet very well for snapshots. The action is smooth and easy, but the pump forend sits a little bit too far forward for my tastes. The massive ejector has not failed me once, it throws empty cases forward and down with enough force to kill small animals- I like it. The feed ramp is a polished lightweight aluminium that locks up and down very crisply. The barrel is held on by a nut that screws on to the end of the tube after dropping the barrel in place with the ring over the magazine tube, which makes for easy disassembly. However, I haven't seen any Nova 12g barrels for sale, so the quick change possibility is there, but I haven't tried it. The choke is a screw in type that requires the use of an included tool to tighten completely. Mine came with four different chokes- full, modified, modified field (or whatever they call it) and rifled. The chokes are all a polished stainless steel and have resisted corrosion. The entire trigger assembly is poly along with the outer receiver/stock (note that the stock is a permanent part of the receiver). The saftey is a simple bar type easily accessable by the trigger or index finger. The bolt release is on the right side infront of the trigger assembly, and it functions in an upwards fashion. It is very stiff which is good for it's position, and you may bump on it while firing. Everything external except for the feed ramp, magazine tube (black) and bolt (black) is covered in the Advantage hardwood (edit- it is Atvantage HD, not Max 4) laminate which is very nice. It's base color seems to be a moderate dark kahki with mixes of branches and a contrast of dead and green leaves. I like it, it will do very well in the woods. It also provides basic "shoot me black" cover in green areas, but does not blend with green as you would find with grass or dense foilage.

It has a few 100 packs of 2 3/4 number 8 birdshot, and handfull of 3 and 3 1/2 turkey loads and rifled slugs through it. The chokes carbon up rather quickly but a quick wipedown after firing restores the finish. I have not cleaned the weapon since I first shot it and the barrel seems fine. The chamber and feed ramp are black, but there is no noticeable carbon buildup. No faults in the action, only had one FTE which I think was a short stroke. All I did was pull the pump back while using the stop-feed button, eject the spent plastic, put the unfired round down the tube, and relock the bolt. I haven't been able to inspect the internals for wear due to the poly receiver and not having the correct tools to disassemble. Basically, all is still running fine and I think this is going to be one hell of a durable machine.

[BeltFedLMG]

saiga 12.

[delta bravo]

I have a M12 Winchester that has been passed down through the family… It over 80 yrs old... I got to tell you... It feels better than any mosberg* or benelli I have ever fired…. If it was done right to start with…. Keep it… I say

I say the Model 12 is the best shotgun ever... what say you?

[nagant_m44]

Franchi SPAS-15 and Saiga 12

Basically any shotgun with a removable magazine

[Legion]

I have a M12 Winchester that has been passed down through the family… It over 80 yrs old... I got to tell you... It feels better than any mosberg* or benelli I have ever fired…. If it was done right to start with…. Keep it… I say

I say the Model 12 is the best shotgun ever... what say you?

Yeah the Model 12 is what I have hunted with for years (it was manufactured in the '30s). They are reliable and pretty acurate, but they are punishing to shoot. After a few boxes of shells I have a nice bruise to show off. Still a fine shotgun.

[gaijinsamurai]

I'd love to have an old Model 12 or a Model 97.

[snake]

Mossberg 590

Be Safe

[shadower]

Here is my favorite one.
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh22-e.htm

[Geezah]

Silly zombies! I hear in Land of the Dead they figure out how to use weapons.

Yeah, they're not that great with them. LOTD isn't as good as the remake of DOTD, no sense of impending doom, plus you felt like the movie had been rushed.

[usafbalad]

I have a Winchester "Ranger" and a H&K Fabarm FP6.

I will get pics of my Fabarm sometime this weekend and post them.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gun-collection/aaa.sized.jpg

The other shotgun is my friends Benelli. I'm not quite sure of the model, but I know he added a mag tube extender on it.

[Geezah]

Me and my 12
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/461_1114704082_bsc(4)(medium).jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/461_1113311155_100_03101(small).jpg

[TuNeRsHaRk]

Some more saiga 12 pics
http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976542356-1.jpg

http://www.kimme-korn.de/files/a11_saiga12_ganz.jpg

http://www.sportarms.com/images/DSC_2777.JPG

http://faq.guns.ru/images/saiga12new.gif

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Russian_Chechnyan_conflict/chech41.jpg

[HoboWithAK]

I have a Winchester "Ranger" and a H&K Fabarm FP6.

I will get pics of my Fabarm sometime this weekend and post them.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gun-collection/aaa.sized.jpg

The other shotgun is my friends Benelli. I'm not quite sure of the model, but I know he added a mag tube extender on it.

It's a Benelli Nova H20. Nickle plated and stainless steel parts to be used in high corrosion areas such as near water, especially salt water, and in high humidity areas like jungles.

[Seraphim]

I have a Winchester "Ranger" and a H&K Fabarm FP6.

I will get pics of my Fabarm sometime this weekend and post them.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gun-collection/aaa.sized.jpg

The other shotgun is my friends Benelli. I'm not quite sure of the model, but I know he added a mag tube extender on it.

Nice Ar's you got there...I thought I had at least one pic of one of the shottys, but you can just see a glimps of it under the Ar. You can see the sidesaddle and the folding stock...I hate the folding stock.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/Sinasta/IMGP0632.jpg

[CMEPTb]

Remington 870

http://img223.echo.cx/img223/7092/rifles37xg.jpg

[Nick Fury 2002]

My Favorite

Mossberg 590 with Aimpoint and 6 position M-4 buttstock
http://a0.cpimg.com/image/40/AF/49526080-3281-020000C1-.jpg

[Geezah]

My Favorite

Mossberg 590 with Aimpoint and 6 position M-4 buttstock
http://a0.cpimg.com/image/40/AF/49526080-3281-020000C1-.jpg

That is a shweet set up woot

[oldsoak]

Geeez Geezah - you must have ninja rabbits over there..... :lol:

[wiking]

A mate of mine has a Remington 870, sweet gun.

I prefer 2 barreled side-by-side shotguns (my grand dad has one)
But my dad prefers the over-under setup, he's said if he's going to by a shotgun that's the one he wants

[perdurabo]

http://www.artemix.com.pl/img/32/3211241_1.jpg
not that i'mshooter or hunter but i would choosesomething like this for hunting or sport

[Durandal]

http://www.vaapensport.com/novslug.jpg

I also own a NOVA. I love it. Its a solid pump gun. It feeds and ejects all three main shell sizes JUST fine. It bucks like a mule on the 3.5" rounds though. Then again, almost ANY pump gun will...nothing new there.

My Nova also has a tube extension, ghost ring sights, and tactical sling. The gun is accurate out to 100 yards with the sights, using slugs and sabot.

My other shotgun that I shoot is a stock Remington 870. My bird gun.
http://www.sources.com.ar/armas/largas/escopetas/QJ12-104.gif

And then, these three are in my collection.

http://homepage.mac.com/thesw0rdofroland/.Pictures/Yaya/NewGuns/1001.jpg
A Winchester Repeating Arms 12 ga. Model 1887, number 4740 out the roughly 16 000 manufactured.

Below that is a damascus double barrel pre-1880 12 ga. with etching and woodwork...slightly used, slight patina. Custom work...

Last is a reproduction late 1800s Remignton pump 12 ga, produced in 1908 possibly earlier. Worth little but in great condition.

[Legion]

Nice collection Durandal.

I shot one of these this weekend. First time I had ever seen a bolt action shotgun.

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/7424082033/e8eb5540daa8a18cfba813b71e930017.jpg

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/7424082033/fc691afdabf278d3d381d0005cf74faa.jpg

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/7424082033/771cd07b8c2da9d2bf81457bb3180e1e.jpg

It's a Mossberg & Sons 183T .410.

[supercontra]

Does anyone know what shotgun Angelina Jolie is using in Mr and Mrs Smith. I don't recognize it.

[Durandal]

Does anyone know what shotgun Angelina Jolie is using in Mr and Mrs Smith. I don't recognize it.

A Fabarm...SDASS Tactical
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sdass_tact.jpg

Been thinking about getting one, but I do not need a pump right now. Benelli M1 is the next shotty.

H&K was the sole importer/manufacturer of Fabarm shotguns in the U.S. but seems to have dropped them in favor of a more profitable civilian oriented Merkel.

[CQB_Operator]

I got a Benelli M1 Entry
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8990/benellim1entry5hx.jpg

but I like the M4 a lot
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/3144/benellim40km.jpg

[Geezah]

H&K was the sole importer/manufacturer of Fabarm shotguns in the U.S. but seems to have dropped them in favor of a more profitable civilian oriented Merkel.

I didn't think H&K were civilian friendly prefering to focus the majority of their time on military sales?

[One_A]

Me and my 12
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/461_1114704082_bsc(4)(medium).jpg

What brand of stock/grip is that?

[Geezah]

What brand of stock/grip is that?

It's a Speed Feed III stock, purchased from Arizona Gun Runners (http://www.arizonagunrunners.com/Products/SpeedFeed/speedfeed3tacticalmagtss/speedfeed3tacticalmagtss.html)

[Durandal]

Well, the still aren't technically I suppose.

Merkel is the the low end of the rifles and shotguns they now distribute. Including if I am reading everything correctly, Grulla, and Johannsen. The last two companies are big time custom gun makers. Merkel does too, they just run about 12K a gun rather than 16K. Merkel's sales were about 150 million USD, mainly to Europe, just to give you an idea.

Their largest sales are in double barrel (usually over/under guns) shotguns.

This kind of stuff:
http://www.merkel-waffen.de/jagdwaffen/drilling/drilling_neu2.jpg

http://www.grullaarmas.com/imagenes/royal/purdey_g.jpg

[TacoDelRio]

Does anyone know what shotgun Angelina Jolie is using in Mr and Mrs Smith. I don't recognize it.

A Fabarm...SDASS Tactical
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sdass_tact.jpg

Don't worry about the FABARM.... kinda crappy.... we had to sell ours ot another distributor just to get rid of it. Kinda a cheap knockoff of a Remington 870.

[NaOH]

http://www3.telus.net/tejones/pair.jpg

14" 870 along with my DPMS M4.

WHo says we can't own guns in Canada. rofl

[TacoDelRio]

http://www3.telus.net/tejones/pair.jpg

14" 870 along with my DPMS M4.

WHo says we can't own guns in Canada. rofl

I hate you Canuckians and your lack of SBR laws! :bash: ;)

[Otsoa]

http://www3.telus.net/tejones/pair.jpg

14" 870 along with my DPMS M4.

WHo says we can't own guns in Canada. rofl

Hey NaOH, thinking of getting one the 12 inch barrels for the 870 from Dlask? Should make for an interesting looking shotgun. Great for backpacking too :D

[Otsoa]

double tap :oops:

[Geezah]

http://www3.telus.net/tejones/pair.jpg

14" 870 along with my DPMS M4.

WHo says we can't own guns in Canada. rofl

I hate you Canuckians and your lack of SBR laws! :bash: ;)

I have to agree with Mr. Skorotsnoy on this one, nice looking shotty.

[Legion]

http://www3.telus.net/tejones/pair.jpg

14" 870 along with my DPMS M4.

WHo says we can't own guns in Canada. rofl

Looks like a Scattergun Technologies (http://www.wilsoncombat.com/s_professional.asp) 870.
http://www.wilsoncombat.com/images/product/SPRO-A.jpg

[Durandal]

Yeah x2...

Too bad its an NFA gun here in the States...

[NaOH]

Looks like a Scattergun Technologies 870.

Remington 870 Wingmaster with a factory Police 14" barrel.

I added tritium sights (to both this and the 18" barrel), jumbo safety, extra strength spring/follower, +1 extension for the 14" and a +2 extension for the 18" (all Scattergun/Wilson Combat) and the Surefire 618.

I passed on the 12.5" barrel as I thought it would be to short with the Surefire on there.

[Legion]

Looks like a Scattergun Technologies 870.

Remington 870 Wingmaster with a factory Police 14" barrel.

I added tritium sights (to both this and the 18" barrel), jumbo safety, extra strength spring/follower, +1 extension for the 14" and a +2 extension for the 18" (all Scattergun/Wilson Combat) and the Surefire 618.

I passed on the 12.5" barrel as I thought it would be to short with the Surefire on there.

Very nice!

[StukaJr]

Just came back from the gun store:

http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/images/0250668.gif


12 gauge Pump Action w/ Speed-Feed® synthetic stock, Ghost Ring Sights, 9-shot capacity, 20" cylinder bore barrel, parkerized finish.

10 days and this baby is all mine!

I've opted for a standard synthetic field stock though - I'll be replacing it with a SpeedFeed III stock or a SpeedFeed IV Junior for the shorter stock pull. Love the ghostring sights though - can't wait to take it to the range.

Will post my pics - for now, just thought I revive this thread p-)

[Durandal]

PHAT MOSSBERG

Hey, nice superfly Mossberg there. I like. :D

[KEEPER0311]

I personally shoot a Remington 870 12g Wingmaster w/ 3" chamber, 28" Barrel and a variable choke. I love it fired several thousand rounders through it and haven't had any problems with it. Strudy and very reliable.

[Durandal]

I just shot a NFA Saiga 12 ga...12" barrel, shortened gas return...a nice custom job 10 rnd mags from Russia.

Problem was, only magnums would cycle it. Normal 2.75" rounds, like No.7 game loads would not cycle the thing.

The gun looks damn sexy though. Had a custom threaded end with a muzzle break and everything.

[Roaming East]

Benelli M3 Super 90. Pump action smooth as silk while skeet shooting semi is faster than a remingtion 1100.
Kinda long though. otherwise a mossberg Cruiser

[Robroy]

Fabarm tactical

[StukaJr]

Posted this image before, but here it is again:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1751/mossberg3yo.jpg

Installed a SpeedFeed III stock - otherwise, straight out of the box 590A1, waiting for an OD Tac sling and a parkerized heat shield. I know that Mossberg doesn't deem heat shields necessary on their 590A1 models since the barrel is thicker, but in reality it's easy to leave some skin on the barrel after just 5 regular loads... That's personal experience. Otherwise, works very nice and smooth like butter.

The only beef is the parkerized finish that scratches way too easily - the follower left nice scratches through it on the magtube and even on the bottom of the barrel - that's after no more than 500 cycles. The plastic grip of the follower even managed to rub off most of that park in a wider pattern - that's plastic... I can only imagine these babies becoming chrome after a month of real work.

[NaOH]

http://www3.telus.net/tejones/m8701.jpg

http://www3.telus.net/tejones/m8702.jpg

I added a Mesa Tactical stock to my 870 shown a couple pages back. Percieved recoil is far less than the Remy stock and muzzle flip is next to nothing with the straight stock.

Exactly 32" end to end with the stock collapsed.

I love that stock/adapter!

[NaOH]

http://www3.telus.net/tejones/870motion.gif

Playing with a gif editor. Pretty low muzzle rise for a 14".

[Durandal]

A little more on the Nova i'll say. It is a little bit heavier than a non-synthetic 870, handles better than a 1300 (in my opinion), and does kick a bit because the poly stock is hollow. However, you can fix that with aftermarket pads or Benelli's mercury tube recoil system.

I have an 18" NOVA with Ghost ring sights and tube extension. I ditched the mercury recoil compensator. The thing did not work at all.

I like the gun though. Even with the shorter barrel, the gun is accurate at 100 yards with slugs and sabot.

I have stopped shooting anything over 2 3/4" though. Its not enjoyable.

Benelli's newer autoloader handles the the larger rounds quite well.

Next on the list is a Beretta over-under for clays.

[M3 Ultra]

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/usas-12.jpgThis will clean up a trail or alley or room.


http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/usas-12.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/usas-12.jpghttp://world.guns.ru/shotgun/usas-12.jpghttp://world.guns.ru/shotgun/usas-12.jpghttp://world.guns.ru/shotgun/usas-12.jpg
USAS-12 with 20 rounds drum magazine

[Sayeret]

Does anyone have any suggestions of any shotguns that are less than $300 and they like?

[maw]

pump: remington 870 (get one with a steel receiver)
semi: i love the saiga, get a bare bones one to start with and upgrade the stock etc later.

[onefast93z28]

I love my Mossberg 500 persuader, can't short stroke it like an 870, I'd go with a mossy 500/590 or a remington 870 if it were me.

[TacoDelRio]

I love my Mossberg 500 persuader, can't short stroke it like an 870, I'd go with a mossy 500/590 or a remington 870 if it were me.

Ditto.

But how the hell do you say that you cna't short stroke a Mossberg? I've done it before.

Remington 870's are the best deal, if you consider aftermarket support.

[onefast93z28]

I'll rephrase, its harder to short stroke a 500 because than an 870, like I said I would feel good with both.

[MarineLAR]

I have a Hatsan aimguard 12 guage pump. Its pretty good for $195. You get what you pay for I guess.

[StukaJr]

As far as Mossberg vs Remi debate rages on - it's purely personal prefference... 870's tend to outweigh Mossberg's offerings in popularity as much as 5 to 1 in the price range you've selected. The price you've set for yourself - I'd go for a 870 Express and might even have a little left over for some tactical refinements. Express is known to be a little rough in action and build, but it's solid and built to last - cheaper Mossbergs tend to be smoother but not as durable if you are somewhere cold/planning for a rough-n-tough treatment.

With that said, I love my 590A1 as a field gun - it's heavy, absorbs recoil well, 8+1 ammo capacity, I can top it off without risking the elevator to catch my thumb in process, the receiver is pre-tapped to accept a top weaver rail, ghost ring factory sights make for quick acquisition... The trigger is a little furhter forward than 870 but not as forward as Winchester models. I can reach the action release with middle finger while trigger finger in place and safety with the thumb. A little trickier with PG stock, since the hand position changes - I've learnt to halfazz a position on the PG grip that maintains the accessebility of both levers.

If not for a shoddy park job - it'd be an absolutely phenomenal gun to own. And the price is about 450-550 range :D

Edit: Shoddy, not shotty

[TacoDelRio]

As far as Mossberg vs Remi debate rages on - it's purely personal prefference... 870's tend to outweigh Mossberg's offerings in popularity as much as 5 to 1 in the price range you've selected. The price you've set for yourself - I'd go for a 870 Express and might even have a little left over for some tactical refinements. Express is known to be a little rough in action and build, but it's solid and built to last - cheaper Mossbergs tend to be smoother but not as durable if you are somewhere cold/planning for a rough-n-tough treatment.

With that said, I love my 590A1 as a field gun - it's heavy, absorbs recoil well, 8+1 ammo capacity, I can top it off without risking the elevator to catch my thumb in process, the receiver is pre-tapped to accept a top weaver rail, ghost ring factory sights make for quick acquisition... The trigger is a little furhter forward than 870 but not as forward as Winchester models. I can reach the action release with middle finger while trigger finger in place and safety with the thumb. A little trickier with PG stock, since the hand position changes - I've learnt to halfazz a position on the PG grip that maintains the accessebility of both levers.

If not for a shoddy park job - it'd be an absolutely phenomenal gun to own. And the price is about 450-550 range :D

Edit: Shoddy, not shotty


That being said, I'd also have chosen the Mossberg before the Remington, but I do not dislike my Remington. A shotgun is really alot like a sandwich: you gotta be real retarded to screw it up!

But, I like the 590A1, comes with nice ghost ring sights, 9rd capacity, etc. The finish isn't great, but I paint most of my guns, so who cares.

[StukaJr]

^^ Once my 590A1 gets a decent sheen to all the action worn parts, I'm considering a little experiment with my trusty airbrush and Gun Kote (it'll be a whole different subject on the paint when I seriously begin to consider).

Most importantly, try a fit for a Shotgun and find one that fits you (heck, that's true for any gun)... Shotguns can be tailored, but the basic designs are somewhat suited for a particular size and build. Like, the Winchester Models are great but the trigger design is prohibitive for small hands like mine or the pump handle on 870 is easier to reach since the handle overlaps the receiver when pumped (there are pros and cons to that, again). I'm 5'9" and I get more of a bladed stance with 590A1 than with 870. If you have ammunition prefference - some shells, like the Aquilla mini's, work in a select few models from even less makers. Certain accessories are also cheaper or non-existent for some models.

When I eyed the 590A1 first - I've opted to build it into "21st Century Trenchgun" - all that's missing now is a nice M9 Bayo :)

[Laconian]

Does anyone have any experience with optics on shotguns? I am building a Remington 870 and am debating between ghost ring sights or some kind of ACOG or EOTECH. I am just wondering if they will stand up to recoil of 00 Buck and slugs.

[Seraphim]

Maybe both if they can co-witness. I've seen people use Aimpoints, Eotech and Trijicon reflex sights.

[TacoDelRio]

I had a red dot on my 870. It was fast. Was removed after a trip through the snow. Oops.

Just curious, but how do people co-witness? I find it to be the most confusing and busy sight picture. Why not just remove the red dot altogether if it breaks or runs out of batteries?

Red dots make targetting faster than with iron sights. Why bring iron sights into the mix again, and waste batteries? Am I missing something?

[HoboWithAK]

Cowitnessing is really only necessary for combat applications. Just think, you are in the middle of engaging a target and for whatever reason your optic dies. Are you going to take the time to remove and secure it, or just flip up the irons and keep shooting? A lot of the time, the iron sights are fixed so you always are co-witnessing.

[SMGLee]

Cowitnessing is really only necessary for combat applications. Just think, you are in the middle of engaging a target and for whatever reason your optic dies. Are you going to take the time to remove and secure it, or just flip up the irons and keep shooting? A lot of the time, the iron sights are fixed so you always are co-witnessing.

Modern day red dot are pretty durable, you be hard pressed to see it go down. then again is it does, you should always transition to your blaster.

even if a blaster isn't available, the optic window on your optic can act as an emergency sight.

I run EOTech on my shotties.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/CLT-006.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/CLT-004.jpg

[Seiran]

Nice shotguns you have there.

[akmarksman]

I am thinking of getting a Mossy 500 and adding the siderail(Redfield makes one) and mounting a EoTech on it. The reticle IMO is better for shottys..you've got that 65MOA and the 1MOA..useful.
(Of course I'll be adding either a Surefire rail with a vertical grip or a dedicated Surefire forend)

[sergey31]

This is a good red dot/reflex sight, I have in on my Mossberg 835
https://www.nafan.com/hosted/graphics/products/1/600/atn-corp-cmp-dusrs.jpg

[Jippo]

I'm not the Eotech fan, but I must say that for shotguns it is the dogs bollocks.

Great in that job.


-jippo

[scrybe]

I have an Aimpoint on my AR but don't have any experience with optics on shotguns. I will say out of common since though, that an ACOG on a shotty would be money that could be put to better uses. You don't need a magnified optic on a scattergun. Now if you were planning on shooting slugs, I can see how it may be a good option, but not for CQB type stuff.

[Angelwings]

I used a aimpoint m2 and a docter for awhile in my m3 shottie.
Slower than the irons on the ranges typical with shotguns. Didn't like it.

So my recommendation would be - keep the irons and use your money or the optic sight for something else.

[sergey31]

Reflex/Red dot sights are MUCH faster then any iron sights, it's all about practice and knowing what it is. It also aids in keeping both eyes open and increased observation of your target environment. Also they're helpful in low light conditions.
I found them to me quicker on the target then anything and that includes skeet & trap shooting.

[Angelwings]

No they are not. They are faster for the inexperienced. Iron sights are harder to master but in shotties the application is mostly in much shorter distances and getting redpoints are slower and not needed.

I have also shot my share of clays but I concentrate on offensive shooting. I didn't make my comment up, it specifically concerned redpoints on shotties and it was based on experience. Just like yours.


Reflex/Red dot sights are MUCH faster then any iron sights, it's all about practice and knowing what it is. It also aids in keeping both eyes open and increased observation of your target environment. Also they're helpful in low light conditions.
I found them to me quicker on the target then anything and that includes skeet & trap shooting.

[sergey31]

Slower than the irons on the ranges typical with shotguns.


They are faster for the inexperienced. Iron sights are harder to master but in shotties the application is mostly in much shorter distances and getting redpoints are slower and not needed.

So which is it?
If they are faster for the inexperienced then seems to me "experienced" one should be even more faster with em since he is experienced.

There is a good reason for the popularity in reflex tactical sights on shotguns. There are more pros then cons and more and more law enforcement & military begin adopting and issuing them.
With a reflex sight you can accurately hit target up to 50 yards away and I'm not talking about with bird-shot ammo. And there is a reason why it's called reflex sight.

[theholeinthedonut]

I'm using an Aimpoint M2 on my Benelli M-4 shotgun and I'm quite happy with it. I don't think an ACOG will make much sense on a shotgun as it is designed to be used as well over short distances as over long distances, something that won't happen with your shotgun. I want to try my new EOTECH 551 on the shotgun but haven't had the time to do so yet. Maybe next week.

Ciao
Tom

[Angelwings]

Inexperienced in shooting. And 50 yds is not typical shotgun engagement range. And I've not seen any significant increase of redpoints in mil/leo shotguns. My points still stand.



So which is it?
If they are faster for the inexperienced then seems to me "experienced" one should be even more faster with em since he is experienced.

There is a good reason for the popularity in reflex tactical sights on shotguns. There are more pros then cons and more and more law enforcement & military begin adopting and issuing them.
With a reflex sight you can accurately hit target up to 50 yards away and I'm not talking about with bird-shot ammo. And there is a reason why it's called reflex sight.

[TacoDelRio]

I still think co-witnessing is a waste. I've tried it, bugs the **** out of me.

If it breaks, you can have a throw-lever mount on it. Remove it in a very short period of time (couple of seconds), and bam, you're done. I just think co-witnessing is something brought up by gun guys with too much money, and not actual combat veterans. I could be wrong, so who cares it's just an opinion.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Are you kidding...people buy aftermarket sights for shotguns? I went to the gun store and saw a shotgun with ghost rings and I thought it was the most funny/ridiculous thing ever. I'd suggest going and shooting skeet now and again...sights...on a shotgun, hilarious! Remember the effective range for a shotgun must be less than half a football field even with the stronger loads. Are the sights just for asthetic quality? Shotgun=point, business end go boom, things die...put a bead on it.

I'm sure I've offended some people now...but what is the logic behind putting extra sights on shotty?

[Durandal]

Are you kidding...people buy aftermarket sights for shotguns? I went to the gun store and saw a shotgun with ghost rings and I thought it was the most funny/ridiculous thing ever. I'd suggest going and shooting skeet now and again...sights...on a shotgun, hilarious! Remember the effective range for a shotgun must be less than half a football field even with the stronger loads. Are the sights just for asthetic quality? Shotgun=point, business end go boom, things die...put a bead on it.

I'm sure I've offended some people now...but what is the logic behind putting extra sights on shotty?

Ease up there dummy...think before you talk.

I have an 18" Benelli Nova 12 ga. It has ghost ring sights. Its zeroed out to 100 yards. I'll hit a 8" target every time.

See...not all shotgun are used to shoot clays or birds. p-)

With that said I would not bother with ANY sights if you are shooting trap. No one that is good at clays, be it skeet, trap, sporting clays or any variant there of actually uses sights...any sights other than point and aim. You get to the point you simply know where your shot goes.

I love my ghost ring sights. They work for what they are intended...target shooting and deer. A reflex sight will achieve the same thing, I simply do not see the need to blow 300.00 USD on a battery sight when the ghost rings work just as well. For that money I can get another gun...or part of a gun...or 4 used Enfields, Mausers, Nagants, etc...

[TacoDelRio]

I agree with alot of that, Polish. I don't even have a bead on my shotgun, broke off last year (in the snow with everything else), so I'm even faster than you! :-0

Ghost rings, however, are friggin' fantastic. Especially with slugs. You aim with slugs, point with shot. Can't get consistent hits with slugs without ghost rings. Or you spend a ****load of money on ammo until you get good with it.

[sergey31]

Reflex electronic sights are designed with a specific advantage in mind and they work pretty well on handguns too.

It GREATLY helps in low light conditions where iron sights are pretty much useless. Some of them (like the one I use has light sensor and will adjust automatically to light condition)

It keeps your head and eyes elevated a bit above the weapon barrel for a better view of the potential target(s). Better visibility.

It has supperior accuracy advantage over iron sights over 20+yd not to mention faster follow up shots. Not all shotgun shooting is under that distance and if you rely only at point blank range then yah you don't need ANY sights, but that's not professional but very novice like.

SWAT in my city use EOTec on shotguns (not sure what model)

[LoTek]

Hi,

What works great are Tru-Glo Fiber Optic sightmounts for the front sights on shotguns.

http://nas4.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/040838000/40838047/pix1325932453.jpg

[TacoDelRio]

Hi,

What works great are Tru-Glo Fiber Optic sightmounts for the front sights on shotguns.

http://nas4.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/040838000/40838047/pix1325932453.jpg

As long as it isn't mounted to a Wimpchester....... WHOOPS! Did I say that? ;)

[Angelwings]

Good informed opinions. This should all be very nice if we were talking of guns in general. The original question was about shotguns.

Shotgun sights do not block ones view. Shooting in darkness is mostly tactical lights and nvgs in mil/leo use anyway. If one can recognize the target at the engagement range, the shotgun sights are very much usable. Usually not so at greater distances but can you really make a positive id either. And if not seeing the sights properly is of concern then fiber sights are available and tac lights should be considered anyway, not only for target recognition.

Preparing for point blank range engagement. Who does that? Shotgun sights work great for the intended ranges.

As for superior accuracy I already made a comment about novices getting better results with optics.

I've also seen some ct/leo units that use optic sights on shotguns, but no signicant increase so far anywhere. The scene is not unanimous(spelling?) on this subject and with the current use most gun experts I respect say optics are not needed. And the question is a somewhat debatable because the mil uses shotties mostly for breaching anyway.

This is what I'm trying to say, putting money on shottie optics can be put to better use elsewhere. There will not be a significant improvement for a skilled scattergun shooter.



Reflex electronic sights are designed with a specific advantage in mind and they work pretty well on handguns too.

It GREATLY helps in low light conditions where iron sights are pretty much useless. Some of them (like the one I use has light sensor and will adjust automatically to light condition)

It keeps your head and eyes elevated a bit above the weapon barrel for a better view of the potential target(s). Better visibility.

It has supperior accuracy advantage over iron sights over 20+yd not to mention faster follow up shots. Not all shotgun shooting is under that distance and if you rely only at point blank range then yah you don't need ANY sights, but that's not professional but very novice like.

SWAT in my city use EOTec on shotguns (not sure what model)

[TheShootist]

Well said Angel. I've spent a lot of time behind a shotgun- granted almost all of it was shooting some form of clays or birds. About the only place where optics excel is shooting turkeys (50-60yd shots). Ghostrings are great for longer shots with slugs, or with rubber bullets. However in most situations the key will be practice with mounting the gun and developing a "sight picture" that will forever be burned into your subconscious. Really the only purpose of beads on a shotgun is to ensure that the shooter has the gun properly mounted- after that the sights shouldn't even be noticed.

[sergey31]

Shotgun Benelli M4 used by U.S military and many U.S Law Enforcement agencies comes with rail to accept optics. I believe that was designed with something in mind.
http://club.guns.ru/images/hkm4/1.jpg
http://www.mts.net/~jhipwell/images/m4pistol.jpg

If I'm not mistaking, a shotgun speed course record was won by someone using modified Saiga 12 and some type of reflex sight.

[thatguy96]

Hi,

What works great are Tru-Glo Fiber Optic sightmounts for the front sights on shotguns.

I'm gonna be honest with you, I've used them before and hated them.

[StukaJr]

I have Mossberg 590A1 with a 20" barrel, cylinder bore - Foster slugs are average at that range, but the premium slugs that have use a plastic shotcup which remains with the slug in place are incredibly on target, even over 100 yard range... This is not to mention the rifled barrels, loaded up with Sabot slugs. Ghost ring Sights allow for quicker acquisition - even if I don't use the rear ring at closer range, the large front post is a lot quicker to pick up than a bead... Larger epoxied beads are also quicker.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong. If training without good sights can produce results, wouldn't same amount of training with better sighted weapon produce better marksmanship?
Sights are for improved aiming - shotguns are aimed fire weapons...

[TheShootist]

Depends on your definition of "good" sights- In law enforcement some ridiculous amount of shootings occur under the 10 foot line, and I'm sure the same holds true for combat situations. At this range, with practice you won't need sights, it's comes down to muscle memory and hand/eye coordination- just like a pitcher throwing a baseball.

[TacoDelRio]

Depends on your definition of "good" sights- In law enforcement some ridiculous amount of shootings occur under the 10 foot line, and I'm sure the same holds true for combat situations. At this range, with practice you won't need sights, it's comes down to muscle memory and hand/eye coordination- just like a pitcher throwing a baseball.

True, but still, you pay some $50 more for ghost rings, and those sights make it easier to put slugs and shot onto a target at "other" ranges. It makes up for the $$$ of ammo you'd spend getting used to it.

[akmarksman]

No one has mentioned it..but what about SWAT/SRT/HRT teams that have on gas masks..you can't always get the proper sight alignment when you go to mount that shotty to your shoulder.

That's the plus side to a red-dot sight..the downside is battery..unless you use a ACOG Tri-power..(3 illumination sources)

[TacoDelRio]

No one has mentioned it..but what about SWAT/SRT/HRT teams that have on gas masks..you can't always get the proper sight alignment when you go to mount that shotty to your shoulder.

That's the plus side to a red-dot sight..the downside is battery..unless you use a ACOG Tri-power..(3 illumination sources)

Good point.

SWAT/LE teams have a slight advantage over infantry, in regards to changing batteries, supplies, and some time, even though stuff happens "alluvasudden".

[akmarksman]

I know the Marines use the new Benelli M1014..which has a rail..I'm guessing for those times they're MOPP'ed...or a peeqy..(AN/PEQ)

[GuiltySpark]

I'm modying an 870 tactical 12.gauge.

So far I replaced the buttstock with a synthetic pistol grip one.
I'm looking to put on a side saddle, barrel shroud, replace the front forestick with one of the forestock/maglite combos. Probably also looking at picking up a pistol grip folding stick (folding along the top of the reciever instead of the side).

Does anyone know of any good quality companies that sell this stuff? (preferably Canadian) I wasn't too happy with the company I got the stock off of. Costed almost half as much as the gun and it actually looked used.

Anyone have any pics of their modified shotguns?

[ThePunisher]

Remington actually began their own production of a similar tactical shotgun, the 870 MAX. It has an extended mag tube, pistol grip stock, ghost ring sights, and a surefire forend grip. It's pretty nice.

http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/870pmax.htm

I don't know about the reliability of any of the other companies, but the Surefire dedicated forend light is an excellent light system.

[TacoDelRio]

I've got a top folding CHOATE stock. Don't know where to get them anymore, sorry.

As for a fore-end, go with a Surefire. Don't get some grabass piece of crap fake cheap maglite deal. You'll be wasting money. Believe me, I used to sell 870's and people used to buy sh*t accessories for them and complain when their ATI stock broke in half.

I've got a Surefire RAS deal on mine, since it's cheaper (already had a light) and I could put a vert grip on it (makes this thing a friggin' jackhammer).

I put a heat shield / shroud on mine. First time in the field, if flew off after about 4 rounds, tearing my front sight off and flying into the snow in the desert. I saved the shield, put it back on, and it flew back off a few months ago in the desert. Waste of money. There are better shrounds out there, but I dunno, I just wear gloves. Sometimes you get burned, oh well. Mossberg has much better ones already installed. I don't know of any good ones aftermarket-wise for an 870.


Here's mine:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/TacoDelRio/f378caff.jpg
Heat shield and sh*tty truglo sight installed (before the second flight of the shield)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/TacoDelRio/7d81cb44.jpg
Minutes after the thing flew off. The saddle came off too. Piece of crap. Then again I do kinda beat the living snot out of my tools. :)

Sorry if I didn't spell anything properly, or punctuate it. I type fast and no longer care about my spelling. :)

[GuiltySpark]

Thanks for the link.

Nice pics.

I liked the look cool factor of the top top folding stock but I'd probably end up shooting it too much like that and get smashed in the face.

[I saw a kid shatter his nose. He used a hack saw and sawed the bareel and stock off his maverick 12.gau and tried to shoot it] :)

I'll probably pick up the top folding one just to **** around with it but I think i'll stick to the pistol grip with full stock.

I'm torn between getting a barrel shroud with the ghost rings already attached and getting some kinda holosight. Since I'm in Canada the barrel extention isn't really an option, considering i'm suposed to only have 3 rounds in it. If I opt for the ghost ring sights I think it may be more worth while to actually get them attached to the receiver.

I'll throw up some pics when I add a few more things on.

[TacoDelRio]

Got a link to the shroud with sights? I hope it isn't the one I think it is (ATI)...

I like my folding stock. I do lots of mountainclimbing and training, so it's nice to have the stock folded out of the way strapped to my rucksack. If you're purely shooting, I'd go with a full stock. Folding stocks are there for portability, since I carry it around alot more than I shoot it.

[BrigN96]

Hope the links work:

• Ace (http://www.riflestocks.com/index2.htm)
• Advanced Technology (http://www.atigunstocks.com/) (ATI)
• Aimtech (http://www.aimtech-mounts.com/)
• Bell & Carlson (http://www.bellandcarlson.com/)
• Boyds' (http://www.boydboys.com/BrowseEbus/Sterlingall.asp)| Boyds' (http://www.boydboys.com/BrowseEbus/Replacementall.asp)
• Butler Creek (http://www.butlercreek.com/)(Michael's of Oregon)
• Cavalry Arms (http://www.cavalryarms.com/shotgunsystems.html)
• Choate Stocks (http://www.choatestocks.com/) | Choate Machine & Tool (http://www.choatemachinetool.com/)
• Factory Tactical (http://www.factorytactical.com/default.html)
• GG&G (http://www.gggaz.com/)
• HiViz (http://www.hivizsights.com/)
• Hogue (http://www.getgrip.com/)
• Knights Manufacturing (http://www.knightarmco.com/) (KAS)
• Knoxx Industries (http://www.knoxx.com/)
• Lasermax (http://www.lasermax.com/)
• Meprolight (http://www.meprolight.com/)
• Mesa Tactical (http://www.mesatactical.com/)
• MMC (http://www.mmcsight.com/)
• Precision Sights (http://www.precisionsights.com/)
• Sage (http://sageinternationalltd.com/)
• Sidearmor (http://www.sidearmor.com/cart/catalog/category_8_Shotgun_Equipment_page_1.html)
• Speedfeed (http://www.speedfeedinc.com/)
• StockShox (http://www.stockshox.com/)
• SureCycle (http://www.surecycle.com/)
• SureFire (http://www.surefire.com/)
• TacStar (http://www.tacstar.com/tacstar/index.htm)
• Truglo (http://www.truglo.com/)
• Vang Comp Systems (http://www.vangcomp.com/)
• Wilson Combat (http://www.wilsoncombat.com/)
• XS Sights (http://www.xssights.com/)

Webshops
• Gun Accessories (http://www.gunaccessories.com/ShotgunStocks/index.asp)

For Remington 870-freaks
• Remington MCS (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/870mcs.htm) | Mil. Shotguns (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/870.htm)
• Remington LE (http://www.remingtonle.com/shotgun/shotguns.htm) (Law Enforcement)

[aclark79]

KNoxx industries makes great stocks, recoil reducing. If you want a pistol grip stock, get the Knoxx specops, AR-15 colapsable withrecoil reduction. You'll find that all the folding stocks are really uncomforatable to shoot if you shoot with any kind of check weld.

Messa Tacticle or Scattergun Tech make great rails and saddle carriers

The tac-star saddle carrier works great, and its fairly cheap. Its the only tac-star part I'd install, the rest are low quality in my opinion.

IF your going to get a light, get the surefire forend, its exspensive, but worth it. Its a rock and won't break. everything else is a compromise.

Barrel shrouds aren't nessesary, if your shooting that much (in real life, not the range) your probably already screwed, but they do look cool.

[Geezah]

It's not a Rem but Mossy, it gives you idea of what you can do to a stock shotty.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_03101Small.jpg

Surefire forward grip with light, SpeedFeed stock, Sidesaddle, and Specter tactical sling.
Also sandblasted the shotty and refinished in Guncote OD Green.

[ABNINF]

I love Spectre slings. I've got their MOUT sling. Absolutely wonderful. Of course I bought it back when they were CQB Solutions.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3466/aag7hm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Geezah]

I love Spectre slings. I've got their MOUT sling. Absolutely wonderful. Of course I bought it back when they were CQB Solutions.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3466/aag7hm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Same here, I've dealt with them before and after, a great bunch as well, I had a pretty weird request a while back for them(I thought it was weird) and they came through for me.
Would recommend them to anyone looking for a well made sling and at a decent price.

[Laworkerbee]

Myself having used MrSkorotsnoy's ugly assed shotty I have to say it was one of the most effective point and shoot weapons I've ever held in my hands. That doesn't mean I still don't want to puke just looking at the poor thing :)

[TacoDelRio]

Myself having used MrSkorotsnoy's ugly assed shotty I have to say it was one of the most effective point and shoot weapons I've ever held in my hands. That doesn't mean I still don't want to puke just looking at the poor thing :)

Haha!!! It's ugly but it works. And it works after all that sand, especially since I got rid of that "high speed" follower that jammed up easily. Piece of crap.

I have one of those CQB solutions / Spectre Gear slings, good setup, got it for M16A2/A4's, worked pretty well.

[Redguy]

I'm looking to buy a 12 gauge pump action shotgun for my brother as a wedding gift. Any recommendations? i'd like to find some thing under $500, i could do more but im not as rich as i'd like to be.

[Limeyfellow]

Perhaps the most recommended and well used shotgun of all time. The Remington 870. I guess every police force in the US, plus others around the world for decades, plus dozens of militaries can't be wrong.

[scrybe]

Depends on what you intend him to use the shotgun for; hunting, plinking, or defense.

If you are thinking something tactical, the main three in your price range are the Remington 870, the Winchester 1300, and the Mossberg 590. You should easily be able to get either of those three for under $500.

[ABNINF]

The 870 is a strong gun, and well known. You can get from just about any place for less than $500.

[onefast93z28]

Always been a fan of the mossberg 500 here

[ABNINF]

The new Mossberg's are pretty good, I've got an 870, but it's the last Remington I'll own, after the way I was treated by their customer service. I'm gonna buy a Benelli next.

[Redguy]

The gun would be for home defence.

[USMC-to-be]

870s are way under $500, try about $250-$300. I've got 2, I love em, real smooth.

[punchinout]

Remington 870 like every one else said, its a great solid shotgun, great action, much better than Mossberg or a comprable winchester. they usually go for about250-300+, at big 5, where i happen to be employed, if you have 'em wherever you are from u can get a 870 for around 260-280 on sale.

[Death.]

Remington 870 mos-def. Super cheap,super reliable, super kickass.

[AmericanImperialist]

rem 870 as others have said or a mossberg 590

[DizBukHaPeter]

You could also try for a benelli nova

[onefast93z28]

I'm not sure about gunstores around you but by me a Mossy 590 is hard to come by. The 500 Special Purpose fills the role for me.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3897/dsc01845mod8kn.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01845mod8kn.jpg)

[Anthony91]

870s are way under $500, try about $250-$300. I've got 2, I love em, real smooth.

Well I kinda know why, because of where you live.

Also ditto on the 870 my dad has one of them......and it is.....teh N00b PWN3r!!!

[TacoDelRio]

Remington 870. Sold a sh*tload, never had a return or repair. Can't say the same about the Benelli Nova's.

Newer Remington 11-87's and 1100's had problems with feeding. The feeding gate button thingy (professional terms here) would sometimes get stuck far up in the chamber.

870? No problems.

[Aussie E]

Benelli Nova
Take 3.5" shells, has recoil buffer and is synthetic. Here in Vegas you can get one under $300. Nice shot gun, also has magazine cut off.

[KEEPER0311]

I'm looking to buy a 12 gauge pump action shotgun for my brother as a wedding gift. Any recommendations? i'd like to find some thing under $500, i could do more but im not as rich as i'd like to be.
My personal preferance is a Remington 870. Had mine for 4 years, and been shooting them my entire life. Great gun. They normally go for about $300 - $350.

[KEEPER0311]

Remington 870. Sold a sh*tload, never had a return or repair. Can't say the same about the Benelli Nova's.

Newer Remington 11-87's and 1100's had problems with feeding. The feeding gate button thingy (professional terms here) would sometimes get stuck far up in the chamber.

870? No problems.
Yep, my dad has had his 870 for over 20 years, hasn't had a problem yet! :)

[chris450]

i have been using a maverick 88 for the past 5 years with no problems..and its much cheaper than the above...

but i guess i would go for the remigton if i could....
my budget is a little tight

[KEEPER0311]

i have been using a maverick 88 for the past 5 years with no problems..and its much cheaper than the above...

but i guess i would go for the remigton if i could....
my budget is a little tight
The 870 isn't the most expensive, but also not the cheapest, but in the long run you'll save money you dont have to spend on repairs.

[StukaJr]

I love my Mossberg 590A1 - it should come right under $500 - has ghost ring and high vis front post, heavy walled barrel, bayo lug, pre-tapped receiver, metal trigger guard and safety, it's damn heavy, so the recoil is easier to handle... 8+1 ammo capacity and the rest that sepparates Mossberg lovers from the 870 lovers - like the shell elevator that doesn't catch your thumb and easier to reach release button.

590 wins over the 870 express in quality of the build, but then the latter has a lot better upgrade options. My only gripe about the Mossberg is their crappy parkerized finish on the loading tube and the barrel - mine has begun wearing off around the action almost immideately... But the latter model 590A1's I see have the matte black finish unlike my dark grey park finish so I think the problem was solved in the later models.

[Ea$y-8]

Get a SPAS-12 :)

http://www.xsi.co.za/shady/Spas12.jpg

[maw]

if you get an 870 get the police or one that has a steel receiver, it'll last waaay longer then one of the alloy quail/attorney hunting ones.
right now, i lovin' the saiga and the winchester sx2 practical.

[ed316]

870 at Wal mart is under $250. Can't go wrong

[THE JACKAL]

remington 870 tactical
http://www.wilsontactical.com/guns/Ichi011A_1_3.jpghttp://www.wilsontactical.com/guns/Ichi011A_1_3.jpg

[ABNINF]

Yep, and for $1100 anyone can own one.

[TacoDelRio]

I love my Mossberg 590A1 - it should come right under $500 - has ghost ring and high vis front post, heavy walled barrel, bayo lug, pre-tapped receiver, metal trigger guard and safety, it's damn heavy, so the recoil is easier to handle... 8+1 ammo capacity and the rest that sepparates Mossberg lovers from the 870 lovers - like the shell elevator that doesn't catch your thumb and easier to reach release button.

590 wins over the 870 express in quality of the build, but then the latter has a lot better upgrade options. My only gripe about the Mossberg is their crappy parkerized finish on the loading tube and the barrel - mine has begun wearing off around the action almost immideately... But the latter model 590A1's I see have the matte black finish unlike my dark grey park finish so I think the problem was solved in the later models.

X2

If I had the money, and the need for another shotgun, then I'd go with the Mossberg 590A1. Right around $500 bucks. COmes with a 9rd tube, ghost rings sights, good basic stock, and a bayonet lug. I know some people think bayonet lugs are pointless, but it doesn't add any weight, doesn't get in the way, and why the hell not?

I might add that if you buy a Remington 870, form my experience the original Remington followers feed the most reliably. I've treated my 870 rougher than any gun I've ever seen treated by any other human being, and the Choate follower I replaced the original with woudn't feed.

Have fun.

[Durandal]

Benelli Nova
Take 3.5" shells, has recoil buffer and is synthetic. Here in Vegas you can get one under $300. Nice shot gun, also has magazine cut off.


I own one (and a 870 and a 1100). I like the gun. Was my first home defense gun (my other shotguns are hunting/sport guns).

However, just take the gun as is, do not waste any time on their "recoil" compensators. Complete pieces of crap. They add a whopping 16oz of weight to the gun and achieve negligible if any reduction in recoil. Then you are stuck with a pound of mercury laying around in your basement.

That does not come stock with the gun though. A good gun outside of that.

[East Scout]

Ive had two Mossberg 88s..BOTH were POS....They are made cheap to move fast as thier low price is attractive as is its black sexy swat look....I dont have a problem with other MB modles just the Maverik 88s...

Remington 870 all the way..

[Silent 6]

I have a remington 870 wingmaster that was purchased for my father when he was 14 years old....he's 61 this year. It has lasted through the years because of the HIGH quality of the parts/components. It still has the original wood hardware.

http://www.gunbroker.com/

There's an 870 "express" which is of cheaper quality and cheaper components, avoid that like a $5 tijuana hooker. You might get the same bang for your bucks, but in the end it'll just mess you up.

[dangerdan87]

I like auto's better. Shoot faster, easier to keep on target, load faster...
I say Remington 1187!

[wiking]

Probably blasphemy for most yanks, but a somewhat fancy S\S would make a sweet presant. Especially if you had the time to have it ingraved with a name or date, and some patterns on the metal of it.

[TacoDelRio]

Lots of "Yanks" buy side-by-sides and over-unders. That's more for sport, not security.

Plus they're expensive as a mofugga 99% of the time, unless you buy a Huglu from Turkey or whatnot.

If he's a wingshooter, then O/U's are nice. Cowboy action shooter? S/S.

[USMC-to-be]

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976365277.htm

Here ya go, great blaster.

[Chuck6d]

We just got these at the local shop. They are sweet! They go for just over $400.


http://froogle.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44184974

[Durandal]

Lots of "Yanks" buy side-by-sides and over-unders. That's more for sport, not security.

Plus they're expensive as a mofugga 99% of the time, unless you buy a Huglu from Turkey or whatnot.

If he's a wingshooter, then O/U's are nice. Cowboy action shooter? S/S.

I have a Stoeger O/U. Nothing top of the line by ANY stretch, it only cost about 275.00. It does the job when shooting clays and dove.

I'd love to pony up on a nice Berreta for 3600.00, but I simply do not spend enough time shooting clays.

[ABNINF]

My best friend, who's in Iraq right now, bought a 20GA Franchi O/U before he left, and took it bird hunting a few times. Great gun, he knocked down a s***load of birds.

[dangerdan87]

I'm tellin ya....go semi....
Pumps might be "in"...but I semis seem so much better.
I shoot.....I shoot A LOT....
Its a bit harder to keep on targer and have speedy follow-up shots with a pump, and re-loading isn't all that fun...
With semi's, its easier to stay on target and have follo-up shots because your only using 1 hand and not 2.

Pumps might have that DELTA FORCE RECON NAVY SEAL PMC look....but all for all, semi's are alot easier.

[TacoDelRio]

I'm looking to buy a 12 gauge pump action shotgun for my brother as a wedding gift. Any recommendations? i'd like to find some thing under $500, i could do more but im not as rich as i'd like to be.

Original post.

He wants a pump JACKASS!!!! p-)
I would rather have a semi, but with how I treat my guns, a semi wouldn't last too long before it became a straight-pull bolt action shotgun.:-(

Durandal, I hear ya. My shotgun looks like sh*t, but it hits stuff when I point it and make boom booms. I've sold quite a few of the Hugle and similar cheapo over-unders (IE, ones we normal folks can afford), and have heard not one complaint, minus a scratched stock.

[dangerdan87]

Original post.

He wants a pump JACKASS!!!! p-)
I would rather have a semi, but with how I treat my guns, a semi wouldn't last too long before it became a straight-pull bolt action shotgun.:-(


cleaning only takes minutes...

[TacoDelRio]

cleaning only takes minutes...

True, but you hafta clean the auto more often than the pump action, from my experience. My experience lies with Benelli M1's, which are a bit finicky in sand. I bury my 870 in sand, shake it out for a few seconds, and then go to work on some targets.

I'm going off topic. I'm speaking of the shotgun as a weapon, not a sporting tool.

Either way, I endorse the Remington 870 100%.

[StukaJr]

Auto vs Pump has a range of pro's and cons, so one can't be an absolute best without considering all the needs and wants of the shooter.

$500 limit is a good reason why an Auto is cost prohibitive in this case. Finicky on ammo is also a downside for some Auto's - apart from trying to load 2" Aquila shells in brass first, my Mossberg eats and spits about anything. Also, ask yourself how far you want your shotgun to shoot - most pumps can swap a rifled barrel in 15 seconds without any tools. Also, that barrel won't cost you an arm and a leg...

Don't get me wrong - I love Auto's but this is a wrong thread for it :)

[ALBANIAN]

Fabarm Sdass cal 12

[ALBANIAN]

Fabarm Sdass cal 12 Magnum

[wiking]

Auto vs Pump has a range of pro's and cons, so one can't be an absolute best without considering all the needs and wants of the shooter.

$500 limit is a good reason why an Auto is cost prohibitive in this case. Finicky on ammo is also a downside for some Auto's - apart from trying to load 2" Aquila shells in brass first, my Mossberg eats and spits about anything. Also, ask yourself how far you want your shotgun to shoot - most pumps can swap a rifled barrel in 15 seconds without any tools. Also, that barrel won't cost you an arm and a leg...

Don't get me wrong - I love Auto's but this is a wrong thread for it :)

Just came home from the hunting licence class, never knwe how fast you can pull a barrel off a pump before.

[Durandal]

He wants a pump JACKASS!!!! p-)

No $hit man. People are simply stupid. Even if he did want a semi, all he could afford, that was solid and reliable for under 500.00 is a Saiga...which is not a bad box mag shotty either.

But I digress...


Durandal, I hear ya. My shotgun looks like sh*t, but it hits stuff when I point it and make boom booms. I've sold quite a few of the Hugle and similar cheapo over-unders (IE, ones we normal folks can afford), and have heard not one complaint, minus a scratched stock.

Yep, for what I do the inexpensive models are just fine. Nearly impossible to break and shoot straight...as needed for game and sport loads. :)

I was at one of the NRA Range Development seminars down in tlanta last October and we toured a Sporting Clays Range...skeet, trap, and 5 stand areas. It was a gorgeous range. Capable of holding national tourneys too, something like 48 or 60 fields...it was amazing. It was a public range, membership was available to anyone (which is sometimes rare in that area), but the pro-shop sold not a single O/U for less than 6 grand. I was amazed. They though the low end Berreta's, which sell for like 1800.00, maybe a bit more, were junk guns...

Now I have handled good O/Us, so don't get me wrong, I know you are getting an exceptional gun at 10K, but I neither compete nationally nor make enough money to even begin to justify wet dreams about the dam things.

[Durandal]

Fabarm Sdass cal 12

Yeah, FABARM...

Do not take this advice. H&K stopped selling them, mainly because of quality issues and decided to do nothing but high end sporting shotguns.

Nor is there much in the way of support for FABARM in the U.S.

Remington is simply the single best way to go regardless of what route you want to go. Sort of the AR of shotguns in some ways. If you want a hunting gun. Swap out the barrel and do it. If you want a home defense gun...do it! If you want something in between, rock and roll...crap loads of accessories, everyone has one, gunsmiths know 'em, and the company actually does a crap load of business...unlike FABARM.

[wiking]

No $hit man. People are simply stupid. Even if he did want a semi, all he could afford, that was solid and reliable for under 500.00 is a Saiga...which is not a bad box mag shotty either.

But I digress...



Yep, for what I do the inexpensive models are just fine. Nearly impossible to break and shoot straight...as needed for game and sport loads. :)

I was at one of the NRA Range Development seminars down in tlanta last October and we toured a Sporting Clays Range...skeet, trap, and 5 stand areas. It was a gorgeous range. Capable of holding national tourneys too, something like 48 or 60 fields...it was amazing. It was a public range, membership was available to anyone (which is sometimes rare in that area), but the pro-shop sold not a single O/U for less than 6 grand. I was amazed. They though the low end Berreta's, which sell for like 1800.00, maybe a bit more, were junk guns...

Now I have handled good O/Us, so don't get me wrong, I know you are getting an exceptional gun at 10K, but I neither compete nationally nor make enough money to even begin to justify wet dreams about the dam things.

I know the whole serious sport shooter craze for expensive kit.
There has allways been this opinion among the old sods in the Norwegian sport shooting community that for hunting or range shooting, if it wasn't a mauser or a krag jørgensen, then you were defenitely not serious. And these days, to try and compete with just about anything other than a Sauer is frowned upon, show up with a semi auyo and you risk being treated as an leper.

That's the problem with those kind of shooters. If it doesn't cost more than your car, then it's crap. Depending on what car you drive of course (or if you want a Purdy or H&H shotgun)

[TacoDelRio]

We got in a single FABARM pump action, with the carbon fibre stuff. THing is, the carbon fibre was painted on. It would scratch off! Looked like sh*t. Sat on the shelf forever, had to sell it to another dealer to get rid of it.

It was basically a clone of a Remington 870. Not as smooth (action). Not a good deal. The forearm blocked the loading port/hole/whatever when it was racked to the rear to open the action.

P.O.S.

Remington 870 seems to be a recurring theme in here.... cheap..... reliable... available..... BUY IT NOW! :)

[GuiltySpark]

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6170/sg3zr.jpg

870s are pretty good. Cheap and you can modify the hell out of them.

I just got a pistol grip (and ripped off for it) and heat shield.
The heatshield was a BITCH to put on! i had to twist and bend and clamp the metal then spend 4 hours filing down my front forestock to get the thing to fit, made a hell of a mess.

Going to throw a few more things on it. Might pick up the top folding stock for it too and mount it on this one or buy a whole new one.

[StukaJr]

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6170/sg3zr.jpg

870s are pretty good. Cheap and you can modify the hell out of them.

I just got a pistol grip (and ripped off for it) and heat shield.
The heatshield was a BITCH to put on! i had to twist and bend and clamp the metal then spend 4 hours filing down my front forestock to get the thing to fit, made a hell of a mess.

Going to throw a few more things on it. Might pick up the top folding stock for it too and mount it on this one or buy a whole new one.

Eh, good luck with that HeatShield, Spark - let us know how it stays on when you shoot... Is that an ACE or TacStar?

I know that TacStar shields don't stay in place - they find their way forward until they push up against something on the barrel, usually a bead sight... Seeing that the heatshield has sights on it - I'm not quit sure if you can trust them until it settles. Is there anything on that heat shield that would prevent the forward movement, other than a tight fit? Because, tight fit won't be enough once it goes boom.

Here is the Mossberg Heatshield on 590A1:

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/3183/moss023ss.jpg

Note, that the bolts pass through a plastic "T" piece, that presses up against the barrel ring, the heatshield does not bulge... The heatshield is meant for 500/590 series and the 590A1 barrel is too fat to properly use the provided screws - I had to stretch it over the top, bang it on, then clamp it back into shape and then use 4 cut down alen screws and JB Weld to permanently attach the screws to the plastic piece... (I know - ghetto)

First time I used the putty with tensile strength of 900 psi and it lasted through well over 200 slugs - damned Remington Sluggers did it in, in the end... The shield stayed on, but the putty began to crack and fall away. JB Weld has almost 4 times the tensile strength.

With this said, I lost all of the alure of the Heat Shield - other than looking cool, they are really worthless... Just get a pair of gloves - using 590 with bare hands is no fun - I always end up with cut fingers and blisters anyhow. Cleaning the crud from beneath the shield is no fun either - this gun will stay as modern looking trenchgun, but I'm through :)

P.S. Note the "silver" loading tube - that's old Mossberg "Military" park job... With that said, this is not the problem on the new 590A1's that you can tell from solid black color...

[GuiltySpark]

It's from ATI. I've heard their *censored**censored**censored**censored*, after ordering it :)

All the sanding and filing sucked ass, I think it would have been much easier to just buy a different forestock instead of using the factory one.

I'm sure the sights are right out to lunch, figured id just try it for the hell of it. Once I shoot I'll mention how it holds up. So far my opinion of 'universal parts' aren't very high. I might run some wire under and through the headshield to try and keep it attached to the barrel and to tighten it up.

[TacoDelRio]

Yeah ATI is kinda........ utter crap. They make good parts for airsoft shotguns, since there's no recoil, and often no abuse.

Mossberg makes good sights, for cheap, if you are thinking of upgrading to ghost rings. WIlson COmbat's Trak-lok's are great too, as are LPI's from Italy.

[StukaJr]

I'm sure the sights are right out to lunch, figured id just try it for the hell of it. Once I shoot I'll mention how it holds up. So far my opinion of 'universal parts' aren't very high. I might run some wire under and through the headshield to try and keep it attached to the barrel and to tighten it up.

You might have to sodder/epoxy some kind of a knob to the barrel - unless you really really tenshion... My friend really twisted his screws on it - the only difference were the scratch marks on the barrel as the shield edged itself forward with every shot... Fortunately, the scratches were transfer scratches -870 finish is really tough

[wiking]

Just back from the range now, was out to try some shots as part of the hunting licence class. Shot some caly pigeons. Even hit a few :)

Double barrel, side-by-side. Old school and traditional, works for me. But a pump might be in the future, never knew S/S cost that much more. But i'll probably inherit my grandads S/S anyways, so i don't know.

I'd like a silencer for the .22 bolt-action though, makes for a lot more fun range work and hunting.

[James]

Lots of "Yanks" buy side-by-sides and over-unders. That's more for sport, not security.


Ja, I have a beautiful Browning Superposed that was made in 1960.

For a plane jane pump gun, Remington 870 police model is good to go. I have one of those too.

[wiking]

The damned shame here in norway is that you cant put a folding stock or a pistol grip on a shotgun here. You can extend the mag tube capacity, but for hunting you are supposed to limit the capacity of it to 2 shots (in chambered, one spare).

But i'm not sure if i liked the double barrel, was both a bit anoying and cumbersome to have to break it all the time.

[Hollywood!]

I cant figure out what Im doing wrong, any help would be greatly appriciated.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/Hydroponic2112/shoesting027.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/Hydroponic2112/shoesting029.jpg

It looks like the Fore-end tube isnt long enough?...

[LTLopez]

contact surefire! I put one on a Mossberg 590 and had no problem installing it myself. It is longer than the standard handguard that was on the original 590.

[Hollywood!]

Problem fixed (hopefully), seems Mossberg makes 2 different fore-end tube lengths, 6 3/4" and 7 3/4". I found a 7 3/4" on ebay so hopefully itll fix the problem.

[TacoDelRio]

Good luck with that dude. Those RIS fore-ends are great with a vert grip. You'll turn your Mossy into a jackhammer!

[Geezah]

When considering a firearm for self-defense or home protection, most people think about handguns. While handguns do have a role to play in personal protection, most notably conceal/carry where legal, the majority of experts you ask will tell you the best choice for defending home and property is a shotgun.

Two primary reasons to consider a shotgun as a defensive firearm are safety and effectiveness. Handgun bullets penetrate walls with sufficient retained energy to harm a person in an adjacent room, or even an adjacent residence. The bulk of a shotgun blast's energy is expended in the target or wall material, minimizing the danger to others.

The psychological impact that staring down the business end of a 12-gauge has on a criminal is something that law enforcement personnel have known for decades, and many a would-be criminal has surrendered to police or fled the home of an intended victim upon hearing the distinct "click-clack" of a pump-action shotgun racking a round.

More people are realizing the utility of a shotgun in personal defense, and many shotgun makers have catered to this market by offering versions with extended magazines, rail mounts and shortened barrels. But there is a less expensive way to obtain a shotgun tailored to defense than purchasing a whole new gun.

When I started hunting nearly three decades ago I went out and bought my first shotgun. The purchase wasn't based on fit, finish or even function. I got what I could afford. Naturally as I became more knowledgeable about firearms and more deeply involved in shooting sports I upgraded to shotguns more suitable to my needs, but that old Winchester Model 120 Ranger pump gun still sat idly in the gun safe.

I was browsing through a sporting goods catalog a couple of weeks ago when I came across a couple pages of shotgun accessories designed to turn sporting pump-action shotguns into tactical models. I decided to give my shotgun a complete makeover.

Advanced Technologies, TacStar and Knoxx are among the companies that make tactical conversion equipment. I'm not really much of a gunsmith, so I was relying on the "No gunsmithing needed" statement on the packaging that all the parts would assemble easily.

The complete overhaul of the Winchester Model 120 was surprisingly easy, taking only about two hours. It might have been completed in less time had I not needed to run to the hardware store for a screwdriver long and wide enough to loosen the main screw holding the rear wood stock to the action and barrel assembly. I also learned the importance of installing tactical upgrades in a certain order. If you'll be upgrading the factory forestock with a pistol grip stock I recommend you do that first. I installed the rear folding stock first, but then had to remove it to extract the trigger assembly so I could put on the forestock. For a complete tactical makeover I suggest the following assembly order: forestock, magazine extension, rear stock, shell holder and finally tactical light or laser. I used both Advanced Technologies and TacStar products to complete the project, all of which fit precisely in place.

As the pictures clearly demonstrate, I now have a rather intimidating piece of home-defense hardware. Controlling the gun during firing isn't as hard as I'd anticipated. In fact, I took it to a local shooting club and had them throw some clay pigeons. After nailing the first one out of the trap, everyone wanted to try my mean-looking shooting machine. It shot 50% of the clays that day, which isn't bad for a shotgun with a slug barrel and open rifle sights. It's a home-defense tactical shotgun, and it has all that's needed to fulfill that role just fine.

Link (http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1300&dept_id=156930&newsid=17010156&PAG=461&rfi=9)

......................

[Hollis]

Geezah, great post but no pictures...

I think the concensus is a shot gun is best for home general defense.

[Durandal]

Geezah, great post but no pictures...

I think the concensus is a shot gun is best for home general defense.

I second that...

No. 7 sport loads...

[Geezah]

I agree and my shotty is the only firearm that currently resides 24/7 outside of my gun safe.
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/461_1113311155_100_03101(small).jpg

[Hollis]

I have a Mossberg 590, I stack the rounds first with 3 rds of #8 promo loads, Then 2 #5's, the 00 alternate with slug. I figure if I am shooting more than 3 rds I am in deep do do.

Opinion on the first rounds is for least amount of penetration, Keep in mind the blast at point blank range is deadly. Geezah, yep same here it is not in the safe. I would not use a semi auto for home protection, I can keep my slide back (acts like a safety and on a 97, jacking it forward with the trigger squeezed it will fire..... Care is needed, the round is setting loose on the loading lever.) Sometimes I switch off shotguns to my '97 or 870.


I don't like lights yet, my house has several electronic clocks that provide sufficient light when my eyes are completely adjusted to the dark.

[Geezah]

I don't like lights yet, my house has several electronic clocks that provide sufficient light when my eyes are completely adjusted to the dark.

I'm sold on the lights, while illuminating the area you would want to shoot at, it can also temporarily blind someone if you were to shine it in their face. The pressure switch allows for a quick on/off and would also mask your movement if they were to shoot where they last saw a light, given you the chance to step to the side without being seen.

I also own two Steamlight Scorpions which I love.

[Herrmannek]

Article isn't good IMHO :) Shotguns inside rooms are as dangerous as pistols... loud rocking slide isn't goint to put you nowhere.. to protect yourself well you need good penetration shotgun or not, and if you want to pierce humans you must agree on piercing walls... Shot have no time to spread so aiming is as vital as with handguns.. IMHO shotguns are as good as pistols... whatever suits someone...

[Hollis]

I'm sold on the lights, while illuminating the area you would want to shoot at, it can also temporarily blind someone if you were to shine it in their face. The pressure switch allows for a quick on/off and would also mask your movement if they were to shoot where they last saw a light, given you the chance to step to the side without being seen.

I also own two Steamlight Scorpions which I love.

Geezah, Thanks for the comment, I am re-thinking my OLD-DOG habits. I have one light I picked up, it is in the safe. I am not darkness avoidance and work real good in the dark. My wife calls me a bat. When I was over seas, I saw lights as a aid for the enemy. It is easier to walk into a lighted structure than away from one. So my bias was developed over there.

I know many who like lights, I am still looking...

Thanks again.

[bluffcove]

a non lethal load as the first few rounds could cause problems legally,

If you didnt need to kill the bloke why did you fire a weapon at him?
If your life isnt in sufficient danger to warrant a lethal response why are you using a firearm?

[Hollis]

a non lethal load as the first few rounds could cause problems legally,

If you didnt need to kill the bloke why did you fire a weapon at him?
If your life isnt in sufficient danger to warrant a lethal response why are you using a firearm?

Non lethal?... even the blast is lethal, The idea of small shot is NOT to keep on killing other people in other rooms. I don't live alone in a bunker. The ranges would be in a house, how long is your longest corridor?, Shoots would probably be less than 15 feet. #8 is more than lethal enough. The loads are based on anticipation of what the most possible even would be like. If I had to leave my house, I could quickly eject the #8's and get to the stuff with more range. The stock on the 590 also carried 4 extra rounds.

[Geezah]

a non lethal load as the first few rounds could cause problems legally,

If you didnt need to kill the bloke why did you fire a weapon at him?
If your life isnt in sufficient danger to warrant a lethal response why are you using a firearm?

If you feel your life or the life of a family member or third party is at risk, then you can use lethal force. If the bad guys lives or dies is not the issue, the issue is too stop the threat.
Most everyone over here suggests putting the bad guys lights out to make sure you don't have to face them in a civil court.

I have #4, OOs and Slugs available on my side saddle and stocks tubes, so I have pretty much everythign I need for a party.

[StukaJr]

This article mixes too much together - no way Knoxx and ATA/TacStar products should be mentioned in the same sentence without suggesting the clear supperiority of former to the latter. The "universal" concept is great, but "one size fits all" often means that the accessory is not meant to properly work on a given model shotgun. Too many TacStar/ATA accessories have worked poorly or even showed lack of design - perfect example are the Heatshields that launch forth off the barrel... It's like someone designed a heatshield without taking into consideration inertia force nor ways to mount it on the barrel - should have copied the actual Mossberg Heatshield which works :)

As for the "folding pistol grip stock" - I think those are also known as cheek busters... My friend installed it on his 590 and got a fat lip almost immideately - ended up putting the original stock on. Not sure about other TacStar accessories, but I've been leaning away from them more and more.

I'm "yes" on lights for a Home Defense gun - and since I need two hands to opperate it, then I need that light on the weapon. Having white walls, I can bounce the beam off of walls and the ceiling to create a daylight effect so I'm not limiting my vision to the cone of the light. I've temporary blinded myself with surefire beam through closed eyelids so it's a weapon on its own. In the end, it's like "a <something witty> - I'd rather have it and not need to use it, then need to use it and not have it."

[AFJROTC55]

um, i have been seriously considering putting a collapsible AR style stock on my shot gun when i convert it, i have a Moss 600 AT and im not sure i can convert that so im probly gonna end up buying a 590, but end result im still converting it, im not sure if anyone has experience with AR style collapsible stocks on shotguns, if so the input would be greatly appreciated, and for something on duty, would optics, like an EO be a good investment or just some good ghost-rings?

1*

[StukaJr]

um, i have been seriously considering putting a collapsible AR style stock on my shot gun when i convert it, i have a Moss 600 AT and im not sure i can convert that so im probly gonna end up buying a 590, but end result im still converting it, im not sure if anyone has experience with AR style collapsible stocks on shotguns, if so the input would be greatly appreciated, and for something on duty, would optics, like an EO be a good investment or just some good ghost-rings?

1*

Those stocks work great - the recoil is transferred straight back and adjustable LOP is not something shotgun shooters are acustomed to.

The problem with putting any kind of PG buttstock or AR-type PG stock on a Mossberg shotgun, is that your safety is no longer reachable with the thumb while keeping the shooting hand on the grip. Mossberg safety is designed around a regular rifle stock - of course, it's possible to still hold a PG stock Remington shotguns work better with these kinds of stocks since the safety remains on the trigger guard.

If you are getting a 590 - spend a little more and get a 590A1. Metal trigger guard and safety are worth the hassle, plus I believe the receiver is steel (?). Ghost Rings sights on Mossbergs are very much to my liking - really shrink the target acquisition time.

[AFJROTC55]

thanks, and yes, you bring a very valid point, the safety issue would be a concern, i have relatively large hands so im not sure it would be a problem but there is definetely some merit to what you said, an 870 or a 590A1 are definetely a good consideration for buying,

ghost rings will probably be sufficient, its just that i can definetely tell the difference from shooting clays and shooting targets, a bead just isnt good for shooting stationary targets as far as im concerned.

1*

[Geezah]

I never engage the safety on my 500, I don't keep shells in the magazine, so it's not really a problem, for me anywho.

[AFJROTC55]

right now, me either, i store it unloaded and with the action open and children arent a factor so i really have no reason to engage the safety as of now, but i cant speak for later on down the road.

1*

[Hollis]

There is a lot to home defense/protection than any one single article can cover. If a person thinks buying a firearm is all there is to it.............. they are completely lost, and the best thing for them to do is not..........

Not all homes are the same, and located in the same environment. Not every one is comfortable with the same "firearm" or style.

Like I mentioned earlier I am in the OLD-DOG stage of learning. I know what I can and can not do, it is not a matter of finding out what is in the inner me. What can and will work for me is based on my personal and learned experiences based on 57 years, and some of that in very hostile places. I doubt if I will ever use a firearm against another living human in the future, the odds are it will be a four legged pest, that I will have to deal with. (a cougar took down our llama last January).

There are a number of good books, when accompanied with competent training, practice and really knowing yourself then would be a good time to put a plan of home protection in place.

My training is based on having been a combat Marine, 0353/0311 and LEO training and degree. I also hunt and shoot regularly. For me, in a home defense situation sights are unimportant, target recognition and situational awareness is everything. I would sight over my barrel, forming a "sight picture" can cause or will cause tunnel vision. With practice not using sights is not a issue, we are not talking about 1/2 minute groups. At 15 feet, a 6 inch group is fine, that is something like 40 inches of angel at 100 Yards.

I think shooting should be completely innate, with out have to think about it, ones attention should be completely on the situation and insuring what the target is or is not. To many family members find themselves as a victim when the shooter can not identify their own foot or even a family member from a intruder. Lethal force should be the last solution, and only when there are no other options. Geezah pointed this out.

There are many physical aspects that need to be considered and no forum or book can cover all of it, such as:

How fast do you become alert when woken up? How much are your thoughts fear driven? Do you panic easy?

And if your ever in a lethal shooting, may heaven and the Laws be with you. The only consoling aspect may be that you saved a life of a love one, by taking out the bad guy. A TV is not the same.

[Jippo]

Article isn't good IMHO :) Shotguns inside rooms are as dangerous as pistols... loud rocking slide isn't goint to put you nowhere.. to protect yourself well you need good penetration shotgun or not, and if you want to pierce humans you must agree on piercing walls... Shot have no time to spread so aiming is as vital as with handguns.. IMHO shotguns are as good as pistols... whatever suits someone...

Shotgun is the weapon that porduces the largest trauma from close ranges. The difference with pistol and shotgun is that shotgun actually has one-shot stopping potential even if not hit in the central nervous system which even the biggest handgun calibers lack. Shotgun hit can cause instant shock-effect.


-jippo

["Royal-with-Cheese"]

anyone know how to put a rail on a mossberg 500?

preferably without drilling etc.

found a barrel with a rail that extends back over the reciever on the mossberg page, but they don't have it as a 12"

i guess it would be kinda pointless to put a red dot on a pump gun, but who cares?!!? makeover time!

[wamp]

There is a lot to home defense/protection than any one single article can cover. If a person thinks buying a firearm is all there is to it.............. they are completely lost, and the best thing for them to do is not..........

Not all homes are the same, and located in the same environment. Not every one is comfortable with the same "firearm" or style.

Like I mentioned earlier I am in the OLD-DOG stage of learning. I know what I can and can not do, it is not a matter of finding out what is in the inner me. What can and will work for me is based on my personal and learned experiences based on 57 years, and some of that in very hostile places. I doubt if I will ever use a firearm against another living human in the future, the odds are it will be a four legged pest, that I will have to deal with. (a cougar took down our llama last January).

There are a number of good books, when accompanied with competent training, practice and really knowing yourself then would be a good time to put a plan of home protection in place.

My training is based on having been a combat Marine, 0353/0311 and LEO training and degree. I also hunt and shoot regularly. For me, in a home defense situation sights are unimportant, target recognition and situational awareness is everything. I would sight over my barrel, forming a "sight picture" can cause or will cause tunnel vision. With practice not using sights is not a issue, we are not talking about 1/2 minute groups. At 15 feet, a 6 inch group is fine, that is something like 40 inches of angel at 100 Yards.

I think shooting should be completely innate, with out have to think about it, ones attention should be completely on the situation and insuring what the target is or is not. To many family members find themselves as a victim when the shooter can not identify their own foot or even a family member from a intruder. Lethal force should be the last solution, and only when there are no other options. Geezah pointed this out.

There are many physical aspects that need to be considered and no forum or book can cover all of it, such as:

How fast do you become alert when woken up? How much are your thoughts fear driven? Do you panic easy?

And if your ever in a lethal shooting, may heaven and the Laws be with you. The only consoling aspect may be that you saved a life of a love one, by taking out the bad guy. A TV is not the same.

Very nice post Hollis. I worked in a gunstore for a couple of years before joining the Corps and the most common question when people came in was "I need a gun for home defense". It seems like alot of people just wanted the biggest handgun/rifle with all the bells and whistles attached. Took awhile to explain to people that a $250 Mossberg 500 was a better route then the chrome plated .50 Desert Eagle that they wanted.

[Herrmannek]

Shotgun is the weapon that porduces the largest trauma from close ranges. The difference with pistol and shotgun is that shotgun actually has one-shot stopping potential even if not hit in the central nervous system which even the biggest handgun calibers lack. Shotgun hit can cause instant shock-effect.


-jippo
Of course shotgun with proper ammo will do better damage than pistol, but one-shot stoping potential without hitting vital areas is pure myth...

[Geezah]

Of course shotgun with proper ammo will do better damage than pistol, but one-shot stoping potential without hitting vital areas is pure myth...

I dunno, #4s at close range I'm sure would turn what ever they hit to mince meat.

[Jippo]

Of course shotgun with proper ammo will do better damage than pistol, but one-shot stoping potential without hitting vital areas is pure myth...

It works with animals. :) It is based on the shock effect in several places simultaneously causing nervous system to overreact and shut down. And I didn't say not hitting vital areas, but central nervous system, they are different things. Handgun round through human heart is not one stop hit, but the person can still act for 7-10 seconds after that. It's a looooong time at close range!


-jippo

[Herrmannek]

Handgun round through human heart is not one stop hit, but the person can still act for 7-10 seconds after that. It's a looooong time at close range!


-jippo
Shotgun round through human heart is not one stop hit, but the person can still act for 7-10 seconds after that. It's a looooong time at close range!

[AFJROTC55]

no, i would say pretty much, a 00 slug to the heart is a one stop hit, thats just me though.

1*

[StukaJr]

anyone know how to put a rail on a mossberg 500?

preferably without drilling etc.


590 receivers come pre-tapped for the rail - have to choose over the ghost ring sights though. Not sure about the 500...



found a barrel with a rail that extends back over the reciever on the mossberg page, but they don't have it as a 12"

i guess it would be kinda pointless to put a red dot on a pump gun, but who cares?!!? makeover time!

Do you mean 12ga? That's odd. Other companies make barrels for the Mossbergs - give them a look as well. Don't think there is a quality rail for the Mossbergs that would mount in the manner of 870 - at least not when I looked.

Just be careful what kind of red dot you choose - those chineese POS red dots go offline permanently in one shot with 12ga :) Red dot won't hurt - anything beats aiming with the bead... unless it's a broken red dot that is.


Shotgun round through human heart is not one stop hit, but the person can still act for 7-10 seconds after that. It's a looooong time at close range!

That's usualy reserved for handgun bullets perforating the heart - comparing shotgun to pistol trauma is a lost cause. I don't believe anybody would consider that quote for 12 ga slugs! Shotgun is a long arm - it delivers more velocity, projectile weight, temporary cavity, caliber and energy dump than the most powerful handgun - I'm not even talking about defense sensible handgun.

Remaining threat after a hit to the heart is reserved for PCP induced attackers and Grizzly bears. Leaving bears alone, it's a head shot or disrupting the nervous system - a 12 ga slug delivers enough of a "shockwave" to disrupt the spine while leaving little left of the heart... An ounce of lead almost 3/4" of an inch in diameter and travelling at 1500+ fps

I don't know anybody crazy enough to hunt bears with semi-auto pop guns.

[maw]

i've killed deer and wild boar/pig with shotguns. while i've only used slugs on the deer i've nailed boar with buckshot. i'm not talking about little porky pigs mind you, think 300-400 pound porkers. buckshot nails those big piggies in one. first time i did it i found a whole new level of respect for the shotgun.

shotguns are awesome, especially if you practice and get fast with them.

my personal preference for hd is a short assault rifle with a silencer. failing that i'll grab an 870.

[CFMIKE]

ive got a mossberg mariner with the stainless finish and a pistol grip great weapon not somethin i would want to be on the wrong end of.

[ZaakM433]

I think claymores and AT mines with modified fuses do best for most home defenses. You can set them up before you go to sleep each night and you dont have to worry about any intruders, or your cat/dog. It might seem a little inconvenient but its not that bad, just dont do it while you are groggy before your morning cup of coffee/coke/tea/blood (for the goths).

[Hydro]

Shotgun round through human heart is not one stop hit, but the person can still act for 7-10 seconds after that. It's a looooong time at close range!


You've always got the second option: FFF - Fire til the F*cker Falls!

[ZaakM433]

You've always got the second option: FFF - Fire til the F*cker Falls!

Also known as the Three Fs, 3F, F3, F³, FTTFF, or spray and spray.

[aclark79]

I love my remington 870. Only additions are a surefire forend, sidesadle and a knoxx recoil reducing stock. I have a one point sling that I love, much better than a 3 point for what I'm doing. (IE I'm not guarding anything and I'm not humping through downtown Iraq) A number of guys at my last job made fun of me for adding a recoil reducing stock, but I say use whatever you can, its not like there is a rule book you have to follow in real life. Why should I punish myself when at the range and why shouldn't I give myself every advantage.

For the record I use slugs and 00, low recoil rounds. Slugs on the side saddle

http://www.pbase.com/aclark79/image/64617314/large.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/aclark79/image/64617327.jpg

(old stains on an old carrying case)

http://www.pbase.com/aclark79/image/64617333.jpg

crappy quality picture, but it gives you an idea of where the gun hangs with a sling. Works great.


Ok as far as lights go, here is my apartment with only the alarm light and the light from the computer speakers and microwave:

http://www.pbase.com/aclark79/image/64617340.jpg

Now same thing with surefire

http://www.pbase.com/aclark79/image/64617346.jpg

And what the other person would see, its even more powerfull than this picture shows, as I was blinded by the reflection and actually couldn't tell if I was looking at the center of the light.

http://www.pbase.com/aclark79/image/64617351.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/aclark79/image/64617320.jpg

Why not right?

[11B101ABN]

Here's the skinny:

1) A light is an absolute necessity on a long gun. Proper target ID is also an absolute. The light shold be used in a 'trobing type of fashion, use it sparingly in a steady burn.

2) Mixing ammo in the mag is a no no. I use 00 reduced recoil ammo and if I need to select a specialized munition, I can perform a selction drill. Train, train, train. There ARE liability issues in regards to using the appropriate ammo for the threat that is before you.

3) Kinetic energy munitions (bean bags) are a specialty round and are NOT appropriate for a deadly force encounter. deployment of the "bags" should only be undertaken when you have somone with a lethal force option at the ready.

4) In my experience, single point slings on shot guns( full length) is pointless. A shotgun is front heavy and difficult to mange without a good 2 or 3 point sling. A traditional 2 or 3 point also offers the added benefit of platform stabilization. transitions are often hindered by single point slings due to the swinging of the barrel or the barrel slamming on the ground if you assume a kneeling position.

5) Aimpoints and Eotechs absolutely have a place on a shotgun. Ultimately it boils down to faster target aquisition and higher hit probability.

6) When you use a side saddle, try to go "brass down' as this will allow you to remain oriented toward the threat and will not cause your non- firing hand to obstruct your sight picture. It will also allow for economy of movement during reloads/ selection drills.

The above is based on my 13 years of military experience and 11 years of law enforcement experience and training, take it for what it's worth.

Later.

[Geezah]

my personal preference for hd is a short assault rifle with a silencer. failing that i'll grab an 870.

I would love to use one of my "ASSault Weapons" but the "anything black brigade is evil" would have a field day with it. That's why I only have the shotgun out, less fuel for the media fire;)

[Geezah]

Here's the skinny:

1) A light is an absolute necessity on a long gun. Proper target ID is also an absolute. The light shold be used in a 'trobing type of fashion, use it sparingly in a steady burn.

2) Mixing ammo in the mag is a no no. I use 00 reduced recoil ammo and if I need to select a specialized munition, I can perform a selction drill. Train, train, train. There ARE liability issues in regards to using the appropriate ammo for the threat that is before you.

3) Kinetic energy munitions (bean bags) are a specialty round and are NOT appropriate for a deadly force encounter. deployment of the "bags" should only be undertaken when you have somone with a lethal force option at the ready.

4) In my experience, single point slings on shot guns( full length) is pointless. A shotgun is front heavy and difficult to mange without a good 2 or 3 point sling. A traditional 2 or 3 point also offers the added benefit of platform stabilization. transitions are often hindered by single point slings due to the swinging of the barrel or the barrel slamming on the ground if you assume a kneeling position.

5) Aimpoints and Eotechs absolutely have a place on a shotgun. Ultimately it boils down to faster target aquisition and higher hit probability.

6) When you use a side saddle, try to go "brass down' as this will allow you to remain oriented toward the threat and will not cause your non- firing hand to obstruct your sight picture. It will also allow for economy of movement during reloads/ selection drills.

The above is based on my 13 years of military experience and 11 years of law enforcement experience and training, take it for what it's worth.

Later.

Cool Post, thanks

[Durandal]

my personal preference for hd is a short assault rifle with a silencer. failing that i'll grab an 870.

Just curious...

Which gun?

Which manufacture for the silencer and how much trouble did you get local leo signing off on the form 4?

[Durandal]

Here's the skinny:

1) A light is an absolute necessity on a long gun. Proper target ID is also an absolute. The light shold be used in a 'trobing type of fashion, use it sparingly in a steady burn.

2) Mixing ammo in the mag is a no no. I use 00 reduced recoil ammo and if I need to select a specialized munition, I can perform a selction drill. Train, train, train. There ARE liability issues in regards to using the appropriate ammo for the threat that is before you.

3) Kinetic energy munitions (bean bags) are a specialty round and are NOT appropriate for a deadly force encounter. deployment of the "bags" should only be undertaken when you have somone with a lethal force option at the ready.

4) In my experience, single point slings on shot guns( full length) is pointless. A shotgun is front heavy and difficult to mange without a good 2 or 3 point sling. A traditional 2 or 3 point also offers the added benefit of platform stabilization. transitions are often hindered by single point slings due to the swinging of the barrel or the barrel slamming on the ground if you assume a kneeling position.

5) Aimpoints and Eotechs absolutely have a place on a shotgun. Ultimately it boils down to faster target aquisition and higher hit probability.

6) When you use a side saddle, try to go "brass down' as this will allow you to remain oriented toward the threat and will not cause your non- firing hand to obstruct your sight picture. It will also allow for economy of movement during reloads/ selection drills.

The above is based on my 13 years of military experience and 11 years of law enforcement experience and training, take it for what it's worth.

Later.

Fantastic post...

Speaking with no law enforcement experience I disagree with the flashlight and reflex site. Only because training overcomes the need for both of them. There is almost no need at all for a reflex site shooting at a target that is less than 7m away. You shoot enough rounds and you know where the where the shot will fall.

The flashlight has its merits for certain and I am not trying, in anyway to understate its value, but its a fancy tool with batteries. Anyone who plans on using the shotgun for home defense, should be able to do it with the just the gun AND a loaded tube and nothing else. The same principle applies to the aimpoint/eotech.

So, there is my disagreement, I hope, logically put.

[11B101ABN]

Fantastic post...

Speaking with no law enforcement experience I disagree with the flashlight and reflex site. Only because training overcomes the need for both of them. There is almost no need at all for a reflex site shooting at a target that is less than 7m away. You shoot enough rounds and you know where the where the shot will fall.

The flashlight has its merits for certain and I am not trying, in anyway to understate its value, but its a fancy tool with batteries. Anyone who plans on using the shotgun for home defense, should be able to do it with the just the gun AND a loaded tube and nothing else. The same principle applies to the aimpoint/eotech.

So, there is my disagreement, I hope, logically put.

I can get with you on the reflex sight.

I heartily disagree with you on the necessity of the flashlight. Wtih the understanding that this is a HD gun, I can think of no more compelling reason to have a light. Target ID. The absolute need for knowing what you are shooting at and/or what is making that "bump in the night".
Training will have no impact on the need to know what/ who you are confronting.

[Sabre]

Well, should my alarm and locks not deter a would be 'home invader', I have with me at all times my twin pump action MkI fists with topmounted forehead! p-)

[Hollis]

I can get with you on the reflex sight.

I heartily disagree with you on the necessity of the flashlight. Wtih the understanding that this is a HD gun, I can think of no more compelling reason to have a light. Target ID. The absolute need for knowing what you are shooting at and/or what is making that "bump in the night".
Training will have no impact on the need to know what/ who you are confronting.

I don't need a flashlight in my house, If I was a duty officer I agree with you. Your in unknown areas a lot. I know my house and it has sufficient lighting from the numberous electric clocks, on stove, micro wave, stereo, TVs etc. I also know what my famly members look like. (yep sound stupid, but in a LEO situation, until interviewed who is who is not always known)

Also I stack my loads for a reason, As A LEO we used #5's at the time only(believed to be the best compromise of pattern and effectiveness), Also LEO does not have choices outside the policies of the department.

I never run into any thing.

Also, besides, I have other options if the need arises.

[Geezah]

Well, should my alarm and locks not deter a would be 'home invader', I have with me at all times my twin pump action MkI fists with topmounted forehead! p-)

I knew a guy that locks and alarms would do little to deter;)

[Hollis]

I knew a guy that locks and alarms would do little to deter,)

I read somewhere, that signs of having a alarm, whether you do or don't isn't the issue, has some deterrent of "casing" a place out.

One of our best alarms is the "DOG" alarm. Our Llama did OK, until a cougar got him.

Part of the problem we all live in different kinds of places, then add to the that the uniqueness of our individualities there is no one solution or way or mythology. We can also add to that the randomness in which the bad guy may "come at us". The bad buy could be a kid, junkie, predator, etc. Some burglars have been know to walk up to a house, knock if no answer try the door knob if unlocked entered, if locked try another house. Most burglars do not want anyone home. The "cat burglar" is often the most dangerous. Some will sneak in, steal and leave with out disturbing anyone, some will not.

There is no one way or situation that is a constant in a HD scenario. One fact is known burglars will avoid areas where citizens are known to actively participate in their own personal defense. If you live among sheeple, expect being visited by the wolves.

[Durandal]

I can get with you on the reflex sight.

Honestly, I come from a family of trap and skeet shooters, though, admittedly I never took it up myself at any serious level. Shotguns are like pistols a good shooter never actually uses the sights (regardless of the type of sights) unless you are hunting or target shooting (which I do). My Ghost ring sights do just fine for that.

The reflex sights are good for what they are, there is no denying that, its just the way I was taught...good shooters use iron sights anything over 300 yards gets a scope. Thats not to say that I do not approve of reflex sights or scopes. I own and use both.


I heartily disagree with you on the necessity of the flashlight. Wtih the understanding that this is a HD gun, I can think of no more compelling reason to have a light. Target ID. The absolute need for knowing what you are shooting at and/or what is making that "bump in the night".
Training will have no impact on the need to know what/ who you are confronting.

I think, much like the reflex sight, this is a matter of environment and personal attitude more than anything. I am not a trigger happy guy or some noob that thinks a semi-automatic rifle with a silencer is the best HD weapon. If someone was in our home its an intruder, my fiancee and dog sleep in the same room with me at night. Waking with no light and I have excellent night vision. If I used the flashlight once I would need to keep it on since my eyes do not readjust as quickly as some. I am not night blind or anything but damn if a single light doesn't screw up my vision. I also live in the city with lots of ambient light. I.D.ing someone would be no problem.

It might be different if I had a child right this moment or a bigger home.

I think a lot of it has to do with a person's awareness of their surroundings, the familiarity with those that live in the home with them and how comfortable they are with defending those people and themselves.

I am not saying that a flashlight does not have its value, but I will argue that it is not a necessity for everyone.

I hope that makes sense...I'm enjoying this conversation.

[Jippo]

One of our best alarms is the "DOG" alarm. Our Llama did OK, until a cougar got him.


I'm sorry but I'm laughing at you and your dead llama! Sinister humour! :)


-jippo


Ps. And truly sorry about your llama, and I hope that you will get that pesky cat someday!

[Hollis]

I'm sorry but I'm laughing at you and your dead llama! Sinister humour! :)


-jippo

No problem he was a really comical llama, Great animal, but a sad end, I had to put him down, he was badly damaged.

H,

[Sabre]

Well, I doubt it would beat a llama, but apparently geese are supposed to be great guard-creatures.

Keveaton_05: Unfortunately I don't sleep with my boots on at home, but I do have a M8 bayonet lying around somewhere...

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

i think i picked a bad gun to upgrade but i might be wrong, i have an 870 express magnum (the one that takes 3 and 1/2" shells along with 3 and 2 3/4). hopefully not but ive never considered buying a light for it but after reading everyones comments it does make sense for it to have a light for home defense purposes.

anyone know what my options are for lights? also does anyone know if i can up the cap? although im gonna agree with Hollis, after three rounds if things arent goin good for ya, you might be screwed!

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

also one thing if i could remember how to post pictures on here...at close range your choice of rounds may not matter too much. i did massively extensive damage to a 55 gal drum with sporting clay rounds. blew chunks out of it, however the penetration sucked but steel reacts differently than human flesh. from 7-8 ft out.

[maw]

that's the question isn't it. i haven't had much luck with sbr ar's. especially once you mount a can on. if only ar's had an adjustable gas port.
so i started to lean towards the ak-105 (aac make a silencer called the krinkov in 5.45 that's based on their proven ranger design). then i fired the ak-102 and discovered it had virtually no recoil, i was going to put one of my ar cans on it but the thread pattern doesn't match. i was contemplating getting a quick mount adaptor made, but now due to the proliferation of piston operated ar's by pof, lietner-wise, hk and colt i'm leaning back to a sbr ar. choices, choices, choices.
but to answer your question about which gun, out of the guns i own i think my favorite short "assault rifle" weirdly enough it's the ak-105. it's very light and fast handling and the cartridge is nothing to scoff at.

the local leo (sheriff) in my county is a complete prick so in the past i've had to go the corporate path or list some property i've got in the next county over. i know the sheriff's brother from dove and goose hunting so it's pretty easy. i think i prefer the corporate option tho, it easier and faster.


Just curious...

Which gun?

Which manufacture for the silencer and how much trouble did you get local leo signing off on the form 4?

[AFJROTC55]

i hit on this subject earlier the other day and ironically enogh, i picked up latest issue of G&W for LE and one of the big articles in it was on the Mossberg 590A1, nothing but praise.

1*

[11B101ABN]

Honestly, I come from a family of trap and skeet shooters, though, admittedly I never took it up myself at any serious level. Shotguns are like pistols a good shooter never actually uses the sights (regardless of the type of sights) unless you are hunting or target shooting (which I do). My Ghost ring sights do just fine for that.

The reflex sights are good for what they are, there is no denying that, its just the way I was taught...good shooters use iron sights anything over 300 yards gets a scope. Thats not to say that I do not approve of reflex sights or scopes. I own and use both.



I think, much like the reflex sight, this is a matter of environment and personal attitude more than anything. I am not a trigger happy guy or some noob that thinks a semi-automatic rifle with a silencer is the best HD weapon. If someone was in our home its an intruder, my fiancee and dog sleep in the same room with me at night. Waking with no light and I have excellent night vision. If I used the flashlight once I would need to keep it on since my eyes do not readjust as quickly as some. I am not night blind or anything but damn if a single light doesn't screw up my vision. I also live in the city with lots of ambient light. I.D.ing someone would be no problem.

It might be different if I had a child right this moment or a bigger home.

I think a lot of it has to do with a person's awareness of their surroundings, the familiarity with those that live in the home with them and how comfortable they are with defending those people and themselves.

I am not saying that a flashlight does not have its value, but I will argue that it is not a necessity for everyone.

I hope that makes sense...I'm enjoying this conversation.

The reflex sights I use on duty are for close quarters engagements. I have to shoot on the move to qualify with my M-4, for example, and the Aimpoint really helps with shot placement. I have to qualify in a similar fashion with my 870, although I only use iron sights for that, a reflex sight of any type will not allow me to secure it in the rack in my patrol car.

As far as the light issue, Live and let live. I will endorse a light on any weapon used for HD. I have a light on all of the weapons that I use on and off duty. I am familiar with the floorplan in my home and know who is in it. My Surefires can afford me that split second I need to " dazzle' my adversary and allow me to a) subdue him, or, b) kill him. It is just another tool in my toolbox.

And to add, I agree, I like some lively civilized debate. A rare enough thing on these forums some times.

[Jippo]

but to answer your question about which gun, out of the guns i own i think my favorite short "assault rifle" weirdly enough it's the ak-105. it's very light and fast handling and the cartridge is nothing to scoff at.

For CQB 7.62x39 is a good round, packs a lot more bunch than the 5.45 and it actually can be silenced completely unlike 5.45. With 13gram(vs. 8g (124gr) bullet of the traditional M43 round) bullet it'll be subsonic but will have significant energy on target.


-jippo

[Durandal]

also one thing if i could remember how to post pictures on here...at close range your choice of rounds may not matter too much. i did massively extensive damage to a 55 gal drum with sporting clay rounds. blew chunks out of it, however the penetration sucked but steel reacts differently than human flesh. from 7-8 ft out.

I think shooting sport loads at a steel drum from 5 to 8 feet away has to be one of the more dumb and dangers things I have heard people do on this forum.

You are LUCKY you did not get a trip to the hospital.

[Hollis]

As far as the light issue, Live and let live. I will endorse a light on any weapon used for HD. I have a light on all of the weapons that I use on and off duty. I am familiar with the floorplan in my home and know who is in it. My Surefires can afford me that split second I need to " dazzle' my adversary and allow me to a) subdue him, or, b) kill him. It is just another tool in my toolbox.

And to add, I agree, I like some lively civilized debate. A rare enough thing on these forums some times.

I agree with you, and I can very much endorse the notion of people having a light with their HD weapon. As I have mentioned before, what works for me, may not work for another, and I set it up for the way I do things. I am also a OLD-DOG and like the old tricks, I am still very open on lighting, I have on that fits on the rail of a pistol.. I may take it out of the safe and add it to the pistol that keeps the shotgun company. I keep a 30-30 ready, for four legged pests, along with a S/S 20 guage for tree top raiders (eastern grey squrrels that stip the bark off the top of trees and breaks the wife bird feeders).

I think it is important for new Home defenders to study, learn, pratice and become aware at all the possibilities out there along with the legal issues.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

I think shooting sport loads at a steel drum from 5 to 8 feet away has to be one of the more dumb and dangers things I have heard people do on this forum.

You are LUCKY you did not get a trip to the hospital.

i wasnt worried about it...is it bad that ive done worse? and how would i learn without a little experimentation?

[Hollis]

i wasnt worried about it...is it bad that ive done worse? and how would i learn without a little experimentation?


Best way to learn is read and heed.

second best way is see it happen to another

Third is to have it happen to you. IMHO, there are somethings you never want to have happen to you.

In Cowboy action shooting we use Promo SG loads, at Pepper poppers, Steel silouettes. at (I AM A GUISSIN") 20 feet. SASS requires basic safeties, among them is glasses and ear protectors.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

well i dont do it anymore...i should probably get into competitive shooting instead

[Hollis]

well i dont do it anymore...i should probably get into competitive shooting instead


Try Cowboy Shooting not much real competition, more on the fun side. The Guys I shoot with are laid back and fun orientated. There are the IPSC types, very good, very competitive.... not my style.

edited to add...... Google, SASS. (Single Action Shooting Society)

[Kaapeli]

What do you think about .410 caliber shotguns for home defence?
A gunshop was selling a purpose built .410 home defence shotgun and according to the sales pitch it was supposed to pack more punch than a .44 magnum but still have a much lower recoil than .12 gauge so it's easier to operate.

[Hollis]

What do you think about .410 caliber shotguns for home defence?
A gunshop was selling a purpose built .410 home defence shotgun and according to the sales pitch it was supposed to pack more punch than a .44 magnum but still have a much lower recoil than .12 gauge so it's easier to operate.

First of all, 410 is more costier to shoot, a 20 guage would be a better choice if a 12 recoil is objectionable.

If you can try them out, have a friend let you shoot theirs, maybe that would help you make a decission on what guage.

I own a 410 too, so If it was me, I would say buy it, and if it does not seem to fit your needs add a 20 guage to your collection... But then I feel more is better. Gun never get jealous of the other guns that you own.

[maw]

ebr make a 220 grain sub sonic round in 7.62x39 that still cycles the action. hmmm, i have a pair of ak-104's, might be interesting to try that load. getting a silencer would be tricky, for the sake of evaluation could try a .308 can with a thread adaptor.


For CQB 7.62x39 is a good round, packs a lot more bunch than the 5.45 and it actually can be silenced completely unlike 5.45. With 13gram(vs. 8g (124gr) bullet of the traditional M43 round) bullet it'll be subsonic but will have significant energy on target.


-jippo

[Jippo]

If you are in North America, you might want to give these guys a call:

http://www.canadiantactical.ca/

They should have some Finnish supressors in the inventory, made for various AK models.


-jippo

[Hollis]

ebr make a 220 grain sub sonic round in 7.62x39 that still cycles the action. hmmm, i have a pair of ak-104's, might be interesting to try that load. getting a silencer would be tricky, for the sake of evaluation could try a .308 can with a thread adaptor.

A Ak will work, accuracy will not be as good. The heavier bullet will require something like a 1 in 8 twist. That round makes for a good sub sonic load. Problem with bigger case is case size and the "lower" charge of powder that is used.

.308 can will work..... Sub sonic loads and a can is pretty impressive. It would be nice if can were easier to obtained, Biggest complaint with shooting is noise.

[maw]

[QUOTE=HOLLiS;1834711]A Ak will work, accuracy will not be as good. /QUOTE]

bro i hear you, but we're talking home defense here. the ebr rounds are supposed to be .5 moa, even with a sloppy bolt and a tired barrel if i get 3 moa at a hundred i'm good. the main thing is that if an intruder/zombie/commie snuck into my house that i have the firepower to hurt their feelings.

[akmarksman]

getting back on topic...

You want a AR style stock..then go with Mesa Tactical..
http://www.mesatactical.com/sc_index.php?cPath=31

Mesa Tactical's AR-15 stock and grip adapters, with mounting points for Picatinny rails, shotgun shell holders, and other accessories, are manufactured for the Remington 870, Mossberg 500/590, and Winchester 1300. They are multi-function single-point mounting devices which form the core of Mesa Tactical's systems approach to tactical pump shotgun conversions.
Each adapter is cast and machined from aircraft quality aluminum. After mil-spec Type III hard anodizing, HeliCoil? stainless steel thread inserts are installed in the accessory mount point threads for maximum strength, durability, and reliability. "Flush cup" receptacles for push-button sling swivels are machined into the top and both sides of the adapters.
We offer two lines of AR adapter: High-tube and Low-tube. The High-tube adapters mimic the geometry of an AR-15 rifle, which means they can accept any buttstock or grip made for the AR-15. This also requires that the stock elevation is rather high, too high to use receiver- or barrel-mounted sighting systems. This is why High-tube adapter kits include a top Picatinny rail, so that an optical sighting system can be mounted on the gun.

http://www.mesatactical.com/images/high_tube_and_low_tube.gif
With the Low-tube adapters we have lowered the stock elevation by about an inch. This allows the use of receiver-mounted sights or even the bead sight. However, the geometry is no longer the same as an Ar-15, which slightly limits the variety of buttstocks and grips supported. For example, only buttstocks that feature a receiver extension secured by an end plate can be fitted to the Low-tube adapters; and grips with upper rear extensions will not fit.
No gunsmithing or modification of the basic shotgun is required for installation, which normally takes less than 30 minutes.


I recommend these stocks over the cheap plastic AR type stocks..
and if you wanted..you could use a MAGPUL AR stock..or whichever kind you want..

and if you don't have a Surefire integrated weaponlight or a rail setup with a Surefire..why not?..

Game load shotgun shells are effective for close range without the overpenetration of 00 Buck..

[StukaJr]

i wasnt worried about it...is it bad that ive done worse? and how would i learn without a little experimentation?

Just don't hurt anybody else in the process of experimenting...

[StukaJr]

http://www.mesatactical.com/images/high_tube_and_low_tube.gif



The "High Tube" set up will block or at least make the access to the safety harder on Mossberg model shotguns. I have also tried the "High Tube" set up in person and didn't find it to my liking - really rear heavy, the rail not going flush with the receiver and I don't trust a rail that only has one connection point for its great length... All in all, there was way too much steel and plastic added to a shotgun just to avoid drilling and tapping the receiver...



Game load shotgun shells are effective for close range without the overpenetration of 00 Buck..

I thought it was discussed to death that gameloads will still penetrate sheetrock but won't penetrate enough in the flesh?

[Jippo]

A Ak will work, accuracy will not be as good. The heavier bullet will require something like a 1 in 8 twist.

1:8 is normal AK twist. There are some stability problems with heavier rounds, but that is down to the individual weapon and even weather. :)


-jippo