What if at Pearl Harbor

[a deadly fart]

Well watching the mail call episode on the Pacific War I started to wonder what would the US have done if our carriers were not out at sea but were docked and sunk. Do you think the US wouldve still gone to war or would we have sued for peace?

[usm2b]

hell yeah, we still would have gone to war. If might have gone very, very different though.

[Leftcoaster]

It would only have added to the directed fury, and the possible length of the Pacific war, I'd envision. Hard to imagine America at that point in time accepting having been even partially conquered.

Could the loss of those carriers have meant that Japan would remain on top militarily in the Pacific over the long term? I don't see how, not unless America just gave up. Japan's existing industrial capacity and potential capabilities wouldn't seem close to matching what the U.S. could muster, and even though the Japanese would require more troops percentage wise due to their occupation needs, they again couldn't match what a fully mobilized America could suit up.

[Minardiau]

Even after Coral Sea and Midway. Japan still had more carriers then the combined US Pacific and British Eastern Fleets.

Throughout 42 the US was lucky to have 1 carrier in service at any one time. It wasen't until mid 43 that US naval dominance was secured. For the life of me I can't understand why the Japanese even after Midway diden't try to seek a major naval battle to destory the US fleet.

Of course the US and British could replace carriers. The Japanese could not. By Augest 45 British had 6, US 24 and Australia was in the process of getting 2. Against the Japanese 4.

Then the US had 60 something escort carriers.

[Chulo]

i belive america would have been even more pissed off and hit harder. considering the whole of North america would be an "island" they would have played a defensive game in the pacific for like 2 or 3 years untill a carrier force was build up then swarmed the whole pacific with multiple strikes and overwhlemd the japanese. Lets face it, there was nothing that could match the manifacturing capability of the united states, a liberty ship in less than a month? man they would have had over 10 carriers in one year if they put their back into it.

[Mastermind]

The answer, of course, is "Yes", America would have gone to war. There was to be no quarter after Pearl Harbor, regardless of the loss. Don't forget, at the time, the AC carrier was still, basically, an unproven class of ship...the Battle ships still reigned supreme. The loss of the battle ships was as devastating a blow as could have been concieved at the time. The outcome of the war, including the time table of ending it in Aug of 1945 was not likely to have been off set very much regardless of the loss at Pearl. It would have had no effect on the buildup of overwhelming sea power or the Manhattan Project or the development of the B-29. In fact, it might have actually hastened it. I do think it might have altered the idiotic "Island Hopping" campaign, which in my opinion, was simply bloody dress rehearsals for the ultimate goal of attacking Japan proper. The weakness of Japan was her ocean communications system and we were inevitably going to destroy that with our massive industrial production. Japan of 1941 was doomed the instant the first plane launched toward Pearl.

[JVeld]

H3LL YEAH !!! .....it would have taken longer a lot longer but we would have kicked butt at the end !!!

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Interesting question.

People always say that Yamamoto's surprise attack plan for Pearl Harbor was a brilliant tactical move, but strategically foolish. Japan had no way to contain the industrial might of a fully mobilized US. Yamamoto's plan did not call for the conquering of the US - just for US to give up on defending all the areas Japan had conquered, and dropping the blockade.

I think the US would have realized this, and realized the consequences of capitulation. If I remember right, the US did not declare war on Japan - they pretty much stated that Japan's actions meant that they had created a state of war between the two nations. I don't think that would be any different under the new scenario.

That being said, I think the US would have had a much harder go of it. Japan would have gained a better foothold in all their areas of conquest, and the resources there as well (oil, etc.). They would have gained time - maybe even enough time to get some of their next-generation weapons systems on line. Imagine a war where both the US and Japan had developed and deployed nukes, jet aircraft, radar. Yikes.

[Mastermind]

I think if the Japanese had actually invaded the islands after the attack they might have been in a postion of forcing the US to bargain. This, in conjunction with their rapid taking of the Phillipines would have been such a shock as to force the issue. Also, the west coast was litterally defenselss at the time...If the Japs had shown up with an invasion fleet outside of San Francisco or LA at the time, there might have really been a different outcome to the Pacific war. Think what this and a battleship bombardment of vital cities of the west coast would have done to the American psyche.

[Atlantic Friend]

I think the situation would have been more precarious for US forces if instead of the ships the Japanese forces had concentrated on the fuel tanks and repair docks. That would have closed PH as a functioning Pacific naval base for a while, forcing the USN to "retreat" to either Australia, the Samoa or the West Coast.

[Mastermind]

Why didn't the Japanese invade Hawaii? Just striking and running was not going to do it and they had to know that.

[Atlantic Friend]

Why didn't the Japanese invade Hawaii? Just striking and running was not going to do it and they had to know that.

At first they were suppose to have a second and third bombing run against the drydocks and other port installations, to close down PH for a larger period of time.

But Admiral Nagumo, who was the striking fleet's commander, was anxious to learn that the US carriers were at sea, and feared they could be mounting a raid against his own carriers, which would be caught with their pants down. Thus he decided to interrupt the bombing after the first wave of planes came home, and turned his ships away from PH.

As for invasion, I don't know, probably they thought the logistics would be all too burdensome and vulnerable to US naval action.

[ElHombre]

Thus he decided to interrupt the bombing after the first wave of planes came home, and turned his ships away from PH.

there was a second wave. it was the third which was called off, before the japanese pilots had a chance to strike the oil tanks at pearl. if that had happened, the US fleet would have had to pull back to the west coast. that's the biggest factor which would have prolonged the war the most, even more than the loss of the carriers.


As for invasion, I don't know, probably they thought the logistics would be all too burdensome and vulnerable to US naval action.

the japanese actually didn't plan that far ahead. their main strategic objective was the east indies. the strike at pearl was mainly to knock out the biggest threat to the seizure of it. there was a letter written by a japanese admiral noting how well operations in the pacific had gone since dec. 7 which ended with, 'now what?'.

[Kaplanr]

So you lose the carriers at PH, what happens to Oz and NZ? Do the Nipponese invade them?

[vryhpyammoadded]

It probably would have added another year to the Pacific war and given US Fleet Submarines a lot more publicity what with taking the brunt of the naval war a bit longer.

[Abolith]

I don't think it would have made much of a difference. out of all the BB's japan hit 90% were back up and in battle condition in under 6 months. If the carriers had been there it would have only spread out the damage among the ships even more than it already had. I think that the carriers and BB's would have been battle ready in 6-8 months and then the war would have continued in more or less the same fashion.




Of course thats not the way it happened so it really doesn't matter.

[Kilgor]

The what if question is ...

"what if japan didnt attack pearl habour"

[Chulo]

u.s would still join the war, and they would still fight the japs in the pacific .. maybe no less than 2 years more of a diffrence

[Flagg]

It probably would have added another year to the Pacific war and given US Fleet Submarines a lot more publicity what with taking the brunt of the naval war a bit longer.

I agree with your rationale.

The accomplisments of US submariners in the Pacific theatre often sits in the shadows of the carrier battles and island-hopping.

The bigger the loss at Pearl Harbour, the greater the need to respond.

Industrial rampup and rationalization for the war effort was enormous, a larger loss at Pearl Harbour would have simply cracked the whip even harder.

It could also have potentially impacted the agreement between Churchill and Roosevelt on emphasizing the defeat of Germany first, and maybe some more Russians would have died waiting longer for a second front.

I think Midway would have been taken, Japan might have chosen NOT to waste resources "on the left flank" in Alaska as there would have be no need....and those additional resources could have been used to focus more on the edge of Japan's empire in Northern Australia, New Zealand, or maybe even Russia...all speculation in any case.

The end result would clearly have been the same, just taking a bit longer. Japan still would have eventually seen its forces suffer attrition its industrial capacity could not replace and it would not have changed Japan's vulnerability to US subs targeting critically needed strategic resources like oil.

[Kilgor]

u.s would still join the war, and they would still fight the japs in the pacific .. maybe no less than 2 years more of a diffrence

I dunno.. there was a strong feeling of isolationalism in the states. It might have been a hard sell with the public

[Chulo]

I dunno.. there was a strong feeling of isolationalism in the states. It might have been a hard sell with the public
except for the fact that u.s was already feeding england, u-boats were hunting the atlantic and in common intrest they would not stand by as singapore falls and oz is under real threat. Weather the public would fully support it? i dont think so, i agree with you, but the trend of the global war there was no way a nation as america would not get involved

[Kilgor]

Yes, they were doing the lend lease thing, and some american boats had been sunk by uboats, but it was a big step to full out war and industrial mobilization.

Japan made the choice easy, and then hitler was stupid enough to make it even more simple.

If germany hadnt declared war on the US, there would have been political dramas too.

[soprano]

I dunno.. there was a strong feeling of isolationalism in the states. It might have been a hard sell with the public

HEy you are pretty right about this thinking i just got this WW2 dvd over christmas that was not the usual stuff they did have the combat footage but also much differant it had a lot of polls from the american public and what they thought about years leading up to the war and during the war it also listed military strength numbers ect..........

verey intresting stuff i'll check it out tommorow again and post the numbers and polls if you guys would like!

[a deadly fart]

At first they were suppose to have a second and third bombing run against the drydocks and other port installations, to close down PH for a larger period of time.

But Admiral Nagumo, who was the striking fleet's commander, was anxious to learn that the US carriers were at sea, and feared they could be mounting a raid against his own carriers, which would be caught with their pants down. Thus he decided to interrupt the bombing after the first wave of planes came home, and turned his ships away from PH.

As for invasion, I don't know, probably they thought the logistics would be all too burdensome and vulnerable to US naval action.

See if the Carriers were there the other wave of attack wouldve messed up the oilwells and drydocks. There wouldve been a lot less fight in the US at that point I think.

In the end history will stay as is and we are all free to wonder what if...

[Kilgor]

HEy you are pretty right about this thinking i just got this WW2 dvd over christmas that was not the usual stuff they did have the combat footage but also much differant it had a lot of polls from the american public and what they thought about years leading up to the war and during the war it also listed military strength numbers ect..........

verey intresting stuff i'll check it out tommorow again and post the numbers and polls if you guys would like!

From memory, it was something like 9/10 americans wanted no involvment in a european war.

[Chulo]

From memory, it was something like 9/10 americans wanted no involvment in a european war.
appertntly that ratio seems to be the standard number they put out there in any poll about war.. lol!

[Ian H]

Don't forget, at the time, the AC carrier was still, basically, an unproven class of ship...the Battle ships still reigned supreme. The loss of the battle ships was as devastating a blow as could have been concieved at the time.


I think this is an important point. The evolution of carrier fleets into the war winning force they became principally came about due to experience gained at the battles at the Coral Sea and Midway. With fewer carriers the US would probably not have engaged in these, therefore not learned the best strategies to employ carriers for much longer, if at all. The composition of the US Navy would probably have been very different to how it was in reality.

[Mastermind]

Regardless of the military losses, the US fighting spirit seems to operate on an inverse proportion to her intitial military losses. The losses at Hawaii, in the Philipines, at Wake all were very devastating to the American military circumstance. Also, the American Navy was really ill equipped at the time. The carrier aircraft were practically obsolete anacronisims as compared to the enemy aircraft, in all classes. The American carriers were well built and well designed, perhaps better than the enemy classes. But, so few in number as to be a pitiful comparison...the miracle at Midway, truly was a stroke of good luck rather than a true engagement between rival naval forces. The Japanese commanders, in my opinion, were the military equivalent of three additional American carriers at least.

Regardless, I think the only way the Japanes could have altered the conflict outcome would have been to concentrate forces against the American mainland and to invade Hawaii immediately and maintain contact until the Americans called for a cessation of hostilities. I just don't think the American public would have mentally stood up to that immediate threat. This is considering the psychological impact the Japanese had at the time of practically being invincible militarily.

[Atlantic Friend]

So you lose the carriers at PH, what happens to Oz and NZ? Do the Nipponese invade them?

There was a real threat of invasion of Northern Australia by Japanese forces, IIRC. Wasn't Guadalcanal a potential stepping stone for such an operation ?

[totchan]

Actually The Japanese MAde it across half of the Island of Papua New Guinia to the north of Austrailia. The mixed US and Aussie forces from Port Moresby Plus wins in Coral see and against supply convoys kept Austrailia clear. Most Austrailian troops had been sent to North Africa.

Guadalcanal would have enabled JApanese aircraft to cut off or at least make supplying Austrailia difficult.

[little fatso]

america would go in a different direction. During ww2 the ETO was considered more important than the pacific.

More resources would go into the pacific than europe or maybe america would only fight in the pacific.

[XShipRider]

If I remember right, the US did not declare war on Japan - they pretty much stated that Japan's actions meant that they had created a state of war between the two nations.


http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/japwar.shtml
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/dec/dec01.htm#joint
http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/documents/1941usjapan.htm
(note that last one is a canadian website)

I believe the Joint Resolution of December 8, 1941 is a true declaration
of war, or as close to that animal as you're going to get.


Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the state of war between the United States and the Imperial Government of Japan which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared.

[Limeyfellow]

A war between the US and Japan was only a matter of time, even if they had not attacked Pearl Harbour then. The oil and resources embargo on the Japanese by the US was bound to cause Japan to use its military and it was a matter of antgonising them into a first strike to justify a declaration of war. If they did get the aircraft carriers it might have delayed things for several months at most. The failure was not getting the oil tanks and such.

[Mastermind]

Limeyfellow...do you think the war could have been avoided at all? Do you think the US (Roosevelt administration) actually worked toward a goal of inviting an attack. I suspect the President may have actually seen a war with Japan as a way to counter US isolationists. I wondered what your thoughts were on this.

[arcohawk]

If all of the u.s. carriers where destroyed at pearl harbor along with the eight battleships there the japanese navy and war council would have been enbouldend to then invade midway island. Having destroyed our carriers along with their aircraft and crews it would have been fairly easy to
overwhealm the midway defenders. After taking midway the japanese
imperial navy under Yamamoto would then have been pushed by Tojo
to invade haweii with thier entier navy. This would massive naval invasion probably would take place in early 1943, We the u.s. would have been
waiting and preparing for this attack and would turn pearl harbor and hickham, wheeler fields into unsinkable aircraft carriers. The navy and army aircorps would send hundreds of fighters dive bombers heavy bombers and dive bombers. We would have also sent hundreds of thousand of marines and regular army infantry to beef up the islands
defences. In short the japanese imperial navy would have the fight of thier lives on their hands if they tried to invade the hawein islands, a total blood bath, trying not to loose all thier carriers to u.s. navy dive bombers,
and torpedo planes, and fighters. Even for the sake of argument they did
get past the 800 or so u.s. aircraft, thier amphibious landing would have been up againt well-armed, well fed, determind u.s. defenders, along with an armed civilian defence. I can tell you after sinking all of our carriers
on dec 7th 1941 the japanese would have been stupid enough to invade haweii, and in the process learn that the American fighting spirit.....the willingness to die for ones country is a thousand times greater than that of a cowardly samurie cocksucker!!!

[Chulo]

If all of the u.s. carriers where destroyed at pearl harbor along with the eight battleships there the japanese navy and war council would have been enbouldend to then invade midway island. Having destroyed our carriers along with their aircraft and crews it would have been fairly easy to
overwhealm the midway defenders. After taking midway the japanese
imperial navy under Yamamoto would then have been pushed by Tojo
to invade haweii with thier entier navy. This would massive naval invasion probably would take place in early 1943, We the u.s. would have been
waiting and preparing for this attack and would turn pearl harbor and hickham, wheeler fields into unsinkable aircraft carriers. The navy and army aircorps would send hundreds of fighters dive bombers heavy bombers and dive bombers. We would have also sent hundreds of thousand of marines and regular army infantry to beef up the islands
defences. In short the japanese imperial navy would have the fight of thier lives on their hands if they tried to invade the hawein islands, a total blood bath, trying not to loose all thier carriers to u.s. navy dive bombers,
and torpedo planes, and fighters. Even for the sake of argument they did
get past the 800 or so u.s. aircraft, thier amphibious landing would have been up againt well-armed, well fed, determind u.s. defenders, along with an armed civilian defence. I can tell you after sinking all of our carriers
on dec 7th 1941 the japanese would have been stupid enough to invade haweii, and in the process learn that the American fighting spirit.....the willingness to die for ones country is a thousand times greater than that of a cowardly samurie cocksucker!!!

wow.. humm... i belive the bushido code was more instilled in the japanese the americans.. and no one can deny the japanese's willingness to die..

[arcohawk]

Did the laws and codes of bushedo help the japanese on tarawa or iwo jima, no of course not just because you have a little gold crasamthimum
on you rifle or carry a porly made samurie sword doesn't make you superhuman or fight any better, and I don't care how many times you swear your life to the empeorer, you still can't bet a well armed
well fed well trained u.s. soldier . . . . . . . . period!

[dj_1911]

Did the laws and codes of bushedo help the japanese on tarawa or iwo jima, no of course not just because you have a little gold crasamthimum
on you rifle or carry a porly made samurie sword doesn't make you superhuman or fight any better, and I don't care how many times you swear your life to the empeorer, you still can't bet a well armed
well fed well trained u.s. soldier . . . . . . . . period!

Please stop. You're just fueling the idea some people have that Americans are a bunch of arrogant loudmouths. For the record, I think your comments are asinine. :bash:

[California Joe]

Jesus, lighten up Francis, and take an English class or two.

[Kilgor]

A war between the US and Japan was only a matter of time, even if they had not attacked Pearl Harbour then. The oil and resources embargo on the Japanese by the US was bound to cause Japan to use its military and it was a matter of antgonising them into a first strike to justify a declaration of war. .

Yeah... it was totally wrong of the US to slap the embargo on japan in response to their attacks on china. :roll:

[Minardiau]

To the question.

Not alot.

Throughout 1942 the US rarely had more then one fleet carrier in operation at any one time. The key battles in the Solomons were faught using BB's and Cruisers due to both Japan and the Allies having land based planes in the area so there would not have been a change in the Solomons IMO

By the time the Japanese were ready to push on the South Pacific new US battleships had been transferred to the Pacific and despite Midway and Coral Sea the BB's still provided the biggest threat to naval and land forces.

In all honesty the complete destruction of the US Pacific Fleet would of spurned America onto even a bigger war footing. As it was the US only used up roughly 20 percent of it's available war capacity in the Pacific.

[chuckster]

I believe we had the Wasp and the Ranger were deployed on the East coast at the time and thus would have survived. I believe they were a little smaller than the rest of the fleet carriers, but could have been brought to the Pacific if needed. Also I believe the Hornet was just being completed on the East coast and would have been available shortly after Pearl Harbor. I'm not sure about the status of the Yorktown at this time.

Also to consider, while all the battleships at Pearl were put out of action they were by no means total losses. Several were back in action in just a couple months. While the Enterprise and the Yorktown were lightly armored ships, the Lexington and Saratoga were built on battlecruiser hulls. I don't think all four of these carriers would have been total losses and at least a couple of them may have been operating again shortly.

If the US carriers had been at Pearl Harbor on December 7, it would have been bad but the US could have mustered some flight decks for service fairly soon.

[Mastermind]

The war would not have been prolonged a single day. The B-29 was already on the drawing board...the Nuclear project (Manhattan) was going to be developed accordingly and on time, since it was primarily developed to use against the Nazis, not Japan. Once the US had the bomb, it was going to be over. Clearly, Japan was not going to ever invade the West Coast of North America...thus the real threats to the Pacific nations, Austrailia and NZ and SE Asia were merely temporary at best...Japan would have been made to heel on time..Aug 7th was going to be the prelude to the end, no matter what.

I know, some may think the lack of island bases in the Pacific would have delayed such an attack...I doubt that seriously..New carriers and a massive fleet would have made the difference...just Guadalcanal and Tarawa might have been avoided....once that massive fleet was built and oeprational, we could take any island base we selected...and would have been able to protect it. Don't forget, Japan was ultimately isolated, not by BB's or CV's ...it was isolated by Submarines! MM

[AK74]

FYI the pearl harbor attack was never a "surprise" attack, a telegram was relayed to the US embassy pior 1 Hour before the japs handed the yankees their butts.

the telegram was an official "letter of engadgement" , a nice letter to say " we are going to whoop ass one hour later, be prepared!"

In other words, its sort of a"LEGAL" way to start war.

what happened? the american translater took his/her sweet time to translate and 5 hours later , it was finished and so was pearl harbor.the rest is history.

I bet not alot of americans knew this. If Japan can censor and rewrite their history books, so can USA.

[Loki77]

FYI the pearl harbor attack was never a "surprise" attack, a telegram was relayed to the US embassy pior 1 Hour before the japs handed the yankees their butts.

the telegram was an official "letter of engadgement" , a nice letter to say " we are going to whoop ass one hour later, be prepared!"

In other words, its sort of a"LEGAL" way to start war.

what happened? the american translater took his/her sweet time to translate and 5 hours later , it was finished and so was pearl harbor.the rest is history.

I bet not alot of americans knew this. If Japan can censor and rewrite their history books, so can USA.

Are you nutt????

[AK74]

Are you nutt????

call me what you want but history is history.Ignorance is bliss A la American style!

[Loki77]

call me what you want but history is history.Ignorance is bliss A la American style!

Do you can supply the existence of the Japs telegram???

[AK74]

Do you can supply the existence of the Japs telegram???

i will piss off lots of Americaans if i do so here.

you can find it at the Japanese war museum in Tokyo if you ever get a chance to go there. i had.

[Connaught Ranger]

i will piss off lots of Americaans if i do so here.

you can find it at the Japanese war museum in Tokyo if you ever get a chance to go there. i had.

Hallo Gentlemen:)

there was a telegram sent to the US by Japan, but it was sent knowing that by the time it was received and acted upon and the hugh time difference to send a response to Pearl it would be too late to stop the attack.

And the Japanese Military Code had been cracked as well by US Military Inteligence, again the reason for the delay in alerting Pearl was the hugh distance involved, the message had to be sent via cable and through various relay stations in code, then deciphered and relayed to the various officers on duty (during a weekend in a paradise location)

On the same day the Japanese hit other targets and made landings in many other places, one reason for no landing at Hawai, lack of available resources, you cant be in all places at the same time with you limited numbers. As well as the hugh amount of men stationed in China.

DECLARATION OF WAR.

"Mr. Vice President, Mr. Speaker, members of the Senate and the House of Representatives:

Yesterday, December 7, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by the Naval and Air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with the nation, and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its Emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

Indeed, one hour after Japanese Air squardrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese Ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. And, while this reply stated, that it seemed useless to continue the existing dimplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or of armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago.

During the intervening time the Japanese Government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaian Islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday the Japanese Government also launched an attack against Malaya.

Last night Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.

Last night Japanese forces attacked Guam.

Last night Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.

Last night the Japanese attacked Wake Island.

And this morning the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has therefore undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

As Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense, that always will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people, in their righteous might, will win through to absolute victory.

I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.

With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. So help us God.

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire.

Franklin D Roosevelt - December 8, 1941.

Connaught Ranger

[charliepage]

FYI the pearl harbor attack was never a "surprise" attack, a telegram was relayed to the US embassy pior 1 Hour before the japs handed the yankees their butts.

the telegram was an official "letter of engadgement" , a nice letter to say " we are going to whoop ass one hour later, be prepared!"

In other words, its sort of a"LEGAL" way to start war.

what happened? the american translater took his/her sweet time to translate and 5 hours later , it was finished and so was pearl harbor.the rest is history.

I bet not alot of americans knew this. If Japan can censor and rewrite their history books, so can USA.

Actually it was sent many hours AFTER it happened. I believe the president wanted it sent beforehand but it wasn't.

Unless you can provide some proof of this of course?

[Minardiau]

It's very well known the Japanese Ambassador and his entourage were held up when they went to deliver the the decleration of war.

[Connaught Ranger]

Actually it was sent many hours AFTER it happened. I believe the president wanted it sent beforehand but it wasn't.

Unless you can provide some proof of this of course?

Even with 24 hours prior warning I doubt the American forces in Pearl would have been ready to stop an attack, they probably would have managed to shoot down a few more planes, but to get a Naval Station the size Pearl on a war footing would take weeks. Not to mention the whole of Hawai.

So called "Defense Plans" look good on paper but implamenting them from scratch, especially on a base that was considered a dream posting takes time.

Connaught Ranger

[AK74]

It's very well known the Japanese Ambassador and his entourage were held up when they went to deliver the the decleration of war.

held up by who? americans?:cantbeli: rofl

[Kilgor]

FYI the pearl harbor attack was never a "surprise" attack, a telegram was relayed to the US embassy pior 1 Hour before the japs handed the yankees their butts.

the telegram was an official "letter of engadgement" , a nice letter to say " we are going to whoop ass one hour later, be prepared!"

In other words, its sort of a"LEGAL" way to start war.

what happened? the american translater took his/her sweet time to translate and 5 hours later , it was finished and so was pearl harbor.the rest is history.

I bet not alot of americans knew this. If Japan can censor and rewrite their history books, so can USA.

Actually it was in the movie Tora Tora Tora.

:lol:

[oldsoak]

The outcome would never be in doubt, but it may have delayed the ability to get the A-bomb to Japan for the inevitable outcome. I wonder what the knock on effect would have been on lend-lease bearing in mind that the US may have felt the need for more resources to build up the Pacific fleet and forces. This may have had repercussions on what could have been supplied to the Allies for some time afterwards.

[Mastermind]

I think the American response to the danger Japan posed was correct. In reality, Japan was in a lose-lose situation. It was Japan leadership that failed to properly assess the situation with the USA. Yamamoto was not the only leader who knew what the consequinces would be if Japan attacked the USA directly. Considering the atmosphere of appeasemment and anti-war that was going on in the USA at the time prior to PH, Japanese with more foresight would have realized they had effectively checked any further American advances. There were other sources of oil than the USA even at the time. Going to war with the USA in the manner they did was so audacious they had to know there would be massive repercussions they would simply not be able to resist.

MM Opinion.

[Murray B]

They probably could not dock the whole Pacific Fleet at one time and wouldn't if they could. As it was the Japanese got pretty much what they were going after.

Don't forget the battleship and not the carrier was king of the sea at that time. Battle groups were formed around battleships and that is where the top admirals of any navy always rode. Only junior admirals would ride on a ship with those little tiny aero-planes.

Only young officers thought the carriers were any good. Many older men did not believe that a four and a half ton aircraft could do much harm to a 45,000 ton ship. The ship is 5,000 to 10,000 times more massive than the aircraft, after all.

Japan probably figured that the U.S. Navy would not risk its carriers without battleships to protect them and would stay out of the war. Nobody, not just Japan, expected that the U.S. navy would kind of spontaneously invent the carrier centric battle group. What was even more surprising was that they beat the tar out of the Japanese Navy using mostly carriers and cruisers as their big ships. Guess they just didn't know it couldn't be done, so they did it anyway.

It wound up that the four and a half ton planes did make some big holes in the massive ships just like the young guys said they would. The Japanese and all their battleships were defeated by a severely hamstrung U.S. Navy.

This is a very strange story, but true.

[Belrick]

Aye, theres much talk about the industrial might of the US during WW2 but the fact remains it was the US pre-war fleet that defeated the IJN in 1942-43, putting Japan on the defensive for the rest of the war.

[Murray B]

Actually it was sent many hours AFTER it happened. I believe the president wanted it sent beforehand but it wasn't.


If it had been sent before hand then the mission could not have been so succesful. Even one hour would allow for many aircraft to be in the air and maybe even a ship or two to be moved out of the harbour. Japanese losses would have been huge.

No, I think the Japanese intentionally delayed the message and then lied about it later. It was not the first time that an Axis nation lied about something.

[charliepage]

If it had been sent before hand then the mission could not have been so succesful. Even one hour would allow for many aircraft to be in the air and maybe even a ship or two to be moved out of the harbour. Japanese losses would have been huge.

No, I think the Japanese intentionally delayed the message and then lied about it later. It was not the first time that an Axis nation lied about something.

I'm not disagreeing with you, that's what I have heard they said though I don't know if I believe it or not. ;)

[timetraveller]

Interesting question.

People always say that Yamamoto's surprise attack plan for Pearl Harbor was a brilliant tactical move, but strategically foolish. Japan had no way to contain the industrial might of a fully mobilized US. Yamamoto's plan did not call for the conquering of the US - just for US to give up on defending all the areas Japan had conquered, and dropping the blockade.

I think the US would have realized this, and realized the consequences of capitulation. If I remember right, the US did not declare war on Japan - they pretty much stated that Japan's actions meant that they had created a state of war between the two nations. I don't think that would be any different under the new scenario.

That being said, I think the US would have had a much harder go of it. Japan would have gained a better foothold in all their areas of conquest, and the resources there as well (oil, etc.). They would have gained time - maybe even enough time to get some of their next-generation weapons systems on line. Imagine a war where both the US and Japan had developed and deployed nukes, jet aircraft, radar. Yikes.


Yes a brilliant tactical move .. but if there was plans to invade the islands ..Think of what could have been ???

And i'm surprised there wasn't multiple strikes against Pearl because they had advantage as the US didn't exactly know where the Jap fleet exactly was ...or it's numbers tho that remains for debate about the stories that the US Admin knew exactly b4 hand ???
Truth will never be told of who knew what, It's only rumours that exists today .

[Mastermind]

Yes, Congress gave the President a declaration of war the next day.

However, let us go back and try wearing Japanese boots in the years 1938-41. Japan was experiencing a fantastic industrial expansion. And, Japan had shown itself to be the big guy on the Pacific block. The United States had shown unimaginable weaknesses over the last decade. The Panay incident, in my opinion, was really the clincher to approval of the of the PH attack plan. Imagine the Japanses Generals reaction to the giant USA mewling like a sick kitten over the outrageous attack on their legitimate presence in China. The Generals must have been in a state of disbelief and were more than a little convinced that the USA would probably sue for a deal rather than going to actual war witha much bigger/bolder attack. This is especially true when you look at events going on in Europe. Hitler was showing huge balls at the time and it was looking terrible for the Britian. They must have been fairly certain the USA, with such a weak military and such sissy (in their minds) leaders, would stay at home and repeat the usual response to outrage.

Don't forget the huge "peace" lobby and general attitude throughout the USA at the time. Even recent speeches by FDR had swornAmerica would stay out of war...practically at all cost! Folks back home in the USA were holding anti-military rallies almost weekly and several "Peace" candidates had just won seats in congress and the Senate. If the nation (USA) had demonstarted a stronger military stance and the people had shown more strength and determination facing our avowed enemies I really do not think PH would have ever happened.

Hey, re-reading this gives me the willies...sounds almost exactly like today, huh?
MM

[LazerLordz]

Yes, Congress gave the President a declaration of war the next day.

However, let us go back and try wearing Japanese boots in the years 1938-41. Japan was experiencing a fantastic industrial expansion. And, Japan had shown itself to be the big guy on the Pacific block. The United States had shown unimaginable weaknesses over the last decade. The Panay incident, in my opinion, was really the clincher to approval of the of the PH attack plan. Imagine the Japanses Generals reaction to the giant USA mewling like a sick kitten over the outrageous attack on their legitimate presence in China. The Generals must have been in a state of disbelief and were more than a little convinced that the USA would probably sue for a deal rather than going to actual war witha much bigger/bolder attack. This is especially true when you look at events going on in Europe. Hitler was showing huge balls at the time and it was looking terrible for the Britian. They must have been fairly certain the USA, with such a weak military and such sissy (in their minds) leaders, would stay at home and repeat the usual response to outrage.

Don't forget the huge "peace" lobby and general attitude throughout the USA at the time. Even recent speeches by FDR had swornAmerica would stay out of war...practically at all cost! Folks back home in the USA were holding anti-military rallies almost weekly and several "Peace" candidates had just won seats in congress and the Senate. If the nation (USA) had demonstarted a stronger military stance and the people had shown more strength and determination facing our avowed enemies I really do not think PH would have ever happened.

Hey, re-reading this gives me the willies...sounds almost exactly like today, huh?
MM

Like they say, history repeats itself in strange ways.

[Murray B]

I'm not disagreeing with you, that's what I have heard they said though I don't know if I believe it or not. ;)

The history books are full of political fluff.

What I think the Japanese were aiming for was not war with the U.S. but an agreement. All they needed was for the U.S. to sign a non-agression pact with the Axis countries, stop supplying Allied nations with war materials, unfreeze Japanese assets and sell some oil. They did not even need the U.S. to surrender.

The Japanese probably did not think the Americans would risk sending out battlegroups without battleships to face some of the largest battleships in the world. The Japanese were mistaken because the Americans at the time were just crazy enough to do exactly that. [They couldn't have been too crazy though because they did wind up winning the war.]