Knight's Cross with Golden Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds...

[Ea$y-8]

After the intended victory of the Third Reich Planned to had out 12 of these awards to their greatest heroes. Although at the end of the war when the 3rd Reich was on its death bed one award was given to Hans Ulrich Rudel the famed Stuka Ace. However this left 11 awards unpresented. So who in your opinion deserved one of these awards?

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/medals-german/kc-gold-with.jpg

My choices are...

1. Hans Ulrich Rudel
2. Erich von Manstein
3. Michael Wittmann
4. Adolf Galland
5. Kurt Student
6. Otto Skorzeny
7. Albert Kesselring
8. Heinz Guderian
9. Paul Hausser
10. Joachim Peiper
11. Otto Carius
12. Karl Dönitz

honorable mentions go to, Hans Hube, Walther Model, Ernst Barkmann, Erwin Rommel and a few others.

[ed316]

Sido..............................

[Johnny_H]

10. Joachim Peiper

I would contest this one, Ide rather see Kurt Meyer or Max Wunshe nominated.

[TheRussian1]

what about Erich Hartmann? he desreved the medal more than any other luftawaffe ace- he had over 350 victories

[Johnny_H]

what about Erich Hartmann? he desreved the medal more than any other luftawaffe ace- he had over 350 victories

Agreed perhaps more then Galland infact.
Galland if im not mistaken was taken out of the air early on cause the Reich didnt want to lose him.

I stil want to read his book.

its called "The first and the last" or something like that.

[Ea$y-8]

I would contest this one, Ide rather see Kurt Meyer or Max Wunshe nominated.

Good point, but ol' Peiper deserves at least a "honorable mention". And Goering, Himmler and Heydrich would not even deserve at little star sticker for anything they did during the war but they would all probably get this award.

[Johnny_H]

Good point, but ol' Peiper deserves at least a "honorable mention". And Goering, Himmler and Heydrich would not even deserve at little star sticker for anything they did during the war but they would all probably get this award.

The thing is the more I read into peiper the more the myth of peiper is dispelled, so really there are more deserving people to be read about.

[Abolith]

what about Erich Hartmann? he desreved the medal more than any other luftawaffe ace- he had over 350 victories


damn right.. the number one all time air to air ace.

[Midav]

damn right.. the number one all time air to air ace.

A lot of German vets I spoke to (not all) do not see Erich Hartmann as being the best, but rather, Werner Mölders, Adolph Galland and others as being better.

Reason being, Hartmann got the majority of his kills on the eastern front and the Germans equalled three Soviet pilots to one British/American pilot.

Please, not wanting to start a flame, as I disagree... 352 kills is NOTHING to sneeze at.

Am just the messenger...

[Kitsune]

Am just the messenger... ...and these guys usually get killed...p-)

However, Hartmann was at the end transferred to the West. And he managed to shoot down 6 American planes, if I am not mistaken. Five Mustangs were shot down by him during one day. So, considering the high training standards of american pilots, he may have been a reasonable good Pilot after all. ;-)

[Midav]

...and these guys usually get killed...p-)

However, Hartmann was at the end transferred to the West. And he managed to shoot down 6 American planes, if I am not mistaken. Five Mustangs were shot down by him during one day. So, considering the high training standards of american pilots, he may have been a reasonable good Pilot after all. ;-)

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html

Sorry, nope p-)

My Opa flew JU-88's out of Greece during WW2. He got to meet Werner Mölders and was even escorted by him several times. He had a high respect for the man.

He respected Hartmann, but not on the level of that of other German Aces. I heard the same from other German vets. Not saying all are like that, but just the ones I encountered. And please... I have all the respect in the world for Hartmann. Just relying the experience I had.

Btw, my mother inherited many pictures My Opa took during WW2.. among them is one of Mölders. Will see if I can borrow it sometime so I can scan it and post it. :)

[TheRussian1]

the disparity between allied and greman aces is so big:
hartman has 352 kills, the highest allied ace, Kozhedub, comes out at 62.

[wiking]

I really don't think people like Himmler and Goering would have gotten this medal. After all Hitler, unlike most dictators who wear medals from their shoulders to their knees (and if their country doesn't have enough medals for it, they invent more), he himself only wore his WW1 wound badge. (And maybe a WW1 service medal?)

Beyond Whittmann and Rommel i know far to little about any Germans who'd deserve a medal like this.

Any U-boat commanders that made it all the way through the war though, just surviving the whole war as a u-boat crewmember would be good enough to get this thing, considering their casulty rate of a good 90% or more.

[California Joe]

Michael Caine for that Eagles Dare thing......

You seem to be really enthusiastic about all things Nazi........

[Ea$y-8]

the disparity between allied and greman aces is so big:
hartman has 352 kills, the highest allied ace, Kozhedub, comes out at 62.

Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/Ivan-Kozhedub.jpg

- Made 62 kills including one ME 262
- 330 combat missions
- 120 aerial engagements
- He met up with a flight of B-17s being attacked by Luftwaffe and tired to help when two P-51 started attacking him. He was then forced to shoot them down.
- Won many medals including:the Order of Lenin twice, seven Orders of the Red Banner, Order of Alexander Nevsky, two Orders of the Red Star, Order of the Patriotic War First Class and last but not least hero of the Soviet Union

http://www.avia-hobby.ru/publ/sovaces/color/La/pre/Kozhedub_La5F.jpg

The La 5 - his aircraft

[TheRussian1]

kozhedub was the HSu three times...as did Pokrishkin.
The only people who got 4 HSU's were Zhukov, and Brezhnev. The latter obviously did nothing to deserve even one HSU.

[Ea$y-8]

kozhedub was the HSu three times...as did Pokrishkin.
The only people who got 4 HSU's were Zhukov, and Brezhnev. The latter obviously did nothing to deserve even one HSU.

No, Brezhnev did nothing to deserve a piece of paper with a little gold star on it. He was Political commissar in WWII. He ended the war as chief political commissar of the 4th Ukrainian Front, until it got into Prague after the German surrender. later in 1946 he left the Red Army as a Major General. When he became head of the USSR he promoted himself to Marshal of the Soviet Union and gave himself all these medals (few of which were deserved)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Leonid_Brezhnev_as_Marshal.jpg

[Kilgor]

My choices are...

1. Hans Ulrich Rudel
.

Rudel was truely a amazing pilot, but a unrepentant nazi till the end of his life.

[CPL Trevoga]

I vote for Heinz Guderian.

[Ea$y-8]

Rudel was truely a amazing pilot, but a unrepentant nazi till the end of his life.

So was Otto Skorzeny...

[Count Lippe]

Sido..............................

No, Bazz Sultan Hengst deserves it even more!p-)

[Royal]

I really don't think people like Himmler and Goering would have gotten this medal. After all Hitler, unlike most dictators who wear medals from their shoulders to their knees (and if their country doesn't have enough medals for it, they invent more), he himself only wore his WW1 wound badge. (And maybe a WW1 service medal?)

No. He wore his iron cross and his wound badge.

[wiking]

No. He wore his iron cross and his wound badge.

ok. But he still only wore what he himself EARNED in war.
He wasn't one for covering himself in medals, and i doubt he'd let people like Himler and Goering do it either. Depends if Hitler was still alive then though.

[Ea$y-8]

Himmler and Goering would more than likely get one for political reasons (they didn't deserve it but they would get it).

[dangerdan]

I wouldnt like any of them nominated....theyre Nazis...

[Freibier]

I wouldnt like any of them nominated....theyre Nazis... Well, it's a nazi award ;)
Sepp Dietrich would've got one for sure

[driver]

1. Helmut Lent (The most successful nightfighterpilot)
2. Otto Kretschmer
3. Eric Topp
4. Joachim Peiper
5. Rudolf Mühlbauer (822 at sea under combat conditions)
6. Eric Hartmann (shutdown 352 planes)

[duck]

For military achievement, I would've awarded von Treschkow or von Stauffenberg if they could have pulled their thing off. Honorable mention to Admiral Canaris for intelligence support.

[Bombtrack]

You seem to be really enthusiastic about all things Nazi........

my thoughts as well

[supercontra]

Rudel was truely a amazing pilot, but a unrepentant nazi till the end of his life.
That would definitely not stop him from getting the medal.
My vote goes to Skorziny and Guderian.
(Also to Rommel but he sort of disqualified himself)

[Macs.]

Michael Caine for that Eagles Dare thing......

You seem to be really enthusiastic about all things Nazi........

We have the cooler Uniforms.

[Kilgor]

That would definitely not stop him from getting the medal.
My vote goes to Skorziny and Guderian.
(Also to Rommel but he sort of disqualified himself)


Of course not, but the admiration after the war is questionable then.

[bravo45]

Hi all!
I joined the forum after reading this thread only to ask; How can you possibly not have mentioned Hans Joachim Marseilles. Usually its pilots like Hartmann that people miss because of his obscurity/long prison time. Though for me his unbreakable will makes him all the more deserving. But Marseilles is the one word answer that shuts up anyone argueing that German pilots were not so good afterall. Galland says of him, 'His achievements were previously thought impossible.'
I could go one, but I'd leave it there, maybe everyone just forgot.

[gaijinsamurai]

I was thinking of Marseilles as well. I'm glad you mentioned him, even if you had to resurrect an old thread to do it.
My choices would be Manstien, Model, Guderian, Galland, Hartmann, Rommel, and Rudel.

[DanteXavier]

Certainly Hartmann, and I'd include Guderian and Rudel. Rommel was worthy to.

[Kilgor]

Important to remember that Hartmann went to the eastern front in late 42, this time was very different to the early killing spree's of the early days.

[bravo45]

Oops, I didn't know how old was, I just searched something on google (don't remember what) when I came across this, read throught signed up and left a note to myself to mention Marseilles. But judging by more posts, probably the interest in the topic is has not dried up yet.

Agree Kilgor! I was pretty surprise to find that out for the first time. It was no turkey shoot when he was assigned to the JG 52, as many would have others believe. But part of the credit should also go to the setup where a new pilot was nurtured and not left to learn his way on and in particular those who helped Hartmann find his own and become the most succesful pilot of all times.

[gaijinsamurai]

Tiger ace Otto Carius probably deserves mention too.......