(UK)Gun cop missed 15yd shot

[Geezah]

A DOWNING Street armed cop opened fire on a pistol-wielding thief from just 15 yards — and still MISSED.
The bullet whizzed past the man, who had threatened officers on a busy street. Realising his lucky escape, he dropped to the ground and surrendered.

The suspect had smashed a window and grabbed jewellery from a Chanel store in Knightsbridge, West London.

As he tried to flee on a moped he was dragged off by police who had responded to an alert.

The armed cop, returning from a Downing Street shift to his squad’s Chelsea HQ, opened fire but missed.

A source said: “The street was very busy, it’s a wonder no one was hit. All hell has now broken loose. The question is, how the hell did he miss.” A probe has begun.


A MAN aged 27 is due before magistrates today on firearms and burglary charges.

Link (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006110337,00.html)

WTF.......what distance do these guys have to qualify at, and why the hell is he carrying a firearm if he can't hit his mark at 15yd, especially, if he is stationed at Downing Street?

[joe mama]

Link (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006110337,00.html)

WTF.......what distance do these guys have to qualify at, and why the hell is he carrying a firearm if he can't hit his mark at 15yd, especially, if he is stationed at Downing Street?

I'll agree that cops should have to meet pretty high standards for shooting, higher, I suspect, then most of them actually are held to, based on when I've seen them shoot. However, this "how the hell did he miss" reaction is not that far from the kind of thinking that no one should ever fire because they might miss, combined with the thinking that anyone trained (even though the people who have this opinion usually know NOTHING about what that training entails) must be able to shoot the eyes out of a fly at 1000 meters with a handgun while riding a horse. Backwards.

Geez, I know you know how complicated real world shooting can be, and it's not that big a surprise that anyone might miss a shot like this (assume the thief was moving or whatever), so I'm not attacking your reaction, because yours is the same as mine - the cop SHOULD have hit this shot. I'm attacking the comment in the article and the attitude it implies.

[Geezah]

As this Officer is stationed at Downing Street, home of the Primeminister, I personally believe he should be able to shoot the eyes out of a fly at 1000meters.
Just imagine if this was one of the SS that is stationed at the White House that did not hit his mark, maybe I'm not being realistic by believing his abilities with firearms should be higher, but I think this is a major problem.

[Greek soldier]

???? From 15 fecking yards???? Not even 14 metres??

I thing Downing Street (and Londoners) should start worrying...

[Rakki]

now they will take all the guns away from the armed police and give them nerf bats!

[Hollis]

Sounded like it worked for everyone. Maybe for all those hard ass killers out there, shooting someone is no big thing, like wiping your nose. I bet the Office had a high pucker factor, this may have been his first opportunity to puncuate another human being or getting puncuated himself. So don't be so hard on him.

It may also say something about the training. Who knows maybe they give a guy a hand gun and box of shells and tell him, "When you retire we want the pistol back and a half box of shells."

[Geezah]

Sounded like it worked for everyone. Maybe for all those hard ass killers out there, shooting someone is no big thing, like wiping your nose. I bet the Office had a high pucker factor, this may have been his first opportunity to puncuate another human being or getting puncuated himself. So don't be so hard on him.

It may also say something about the training. Who knows maybe they give a guy a hand gun and box of shells and tell him, "When you retire we want the pistol back and a half box of shells."

Where the shooting took place is extremely busy, the Police Officer is lucky he didn't hit any innocent bystanders, and if he missed due to not liking the idea of shooting an armed criminal let alone stationed at Downign Street, he needs to give his firearm up, IMHO.

[WarriorMonk]

35 feet seems kinda far for a pistol...

[Geezah]

35 feet seems kinda far for a pistol...

Actually it's 45', but at the range I frequent to zero my rifles, their pistol range is 25yrds(75').

[Hollis]

he needs to give his firearm up, IMHO.

Yes there seem to have been a improper match made. Maybe next time they could give that officer a unloaded whistle with proper training accourse.

One of my thoughts too, a bullet fired, always hits something.

[big_les]

Who says it was a pistol? If he was a routinely armed downing street type, wouldn't he have an MP5 carbine (ie single shot short mag job)?

Either way it sounds pretty poor.

[StukaJr]

A source said: “The street was very busy, it’s a wonder no one was hit. All hell has now broken loose. The question is, how the hell did he miss.” A probe has begun.

Well, the cop fired once and missed once - I'm sure there are no users on this board that have missed at least once in their life in the training situation. Maybe he is a regular holepuncher on the range. Finally, if he took "I just couldn't stop shooting" defense US Cops take - I'm sure things would have been fine, because 9 bullets in the BG's body and 1 bullet unaccounted for raises no eyeborows... That would be "Good Shooting"?

LA and NYC cops miss all the time - should I remind of incidents where up to hundreds of shots were fired, less than 10 hitting their target from ranges of 25-30 feet?

[B Inman]

Nobody got hurt.

The suspect is in custody

Good result.

Training need identified - more time on range for shooter.

[Durandal]

Link (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006110337,00.html)

WTF.......what distance do these guys have to qualify at, and why the hell is he carrying a firearm if he can't hit his mark at 15yd, especially, if he is stationed at Downing Street?

Not that unusual actually. Happened in Ohio. Two Sheriffs deputies and two scumbags...lots of shots no hits.

[Geezah]

Not that unusual actually. Happened in Ohio. Two Sheriffs deputies and two scumbags...lots of shots no hits.

I could understand if he was an average run of the mill PO, but he is stationed at Downing Street, I would hope and expect the Officers there are super cops, but judging by what happened here they are not.

[Yimmy]

Some of you people could use "smelling the roses"...

These are just normal policemen, who passed a course and got into VIP protection duties. They plan out security around the VIP's activities, and stand around for hours on end with nothing to do but wait. Many will likely go through their entire career without needing to fire a shot in anger. It is hardly surprsing that the man missed his first shot at nearly 15m's with a hand gun, when the target was likely moving.

It was only a few months ago that a bored armed police officer in the city managed to chamber his weapon, remove his safety catch and discharge it - accidently. That is what happenes when you are bored and you fiddle.

If the PM takes his security seriously, he should ask the Queen for a Guards detachment.

[DeathForSale]

Jesus, imagine if he had an MP5, rat-tat-rat-tat.......ooppppssss

[Greek soldier]

These are just normal policemen, who passed a course and got into VIP protection duties.

I know that for VIPs Greek Police trains some men to VIP protection schools (a.k.a bodyguard schools). And they get evaluated.

[dobrodan]

Jesus, imagine if he had an MP5, rat-tat-rat-tat.......ooppppssss

As far as I know, most Western European police-forces are only assigned semi-auto weapons (MP5s included). So not very likely.

However, with a two-hand weapon, chances of hitting the target increases considerably. And if firing a burst from 16m away, the robber would very likely have been hit with some of the bullets.

[DeathForSale]

As far as I know, most Western European police-forces are only assigned semi-auto weapons (MP5s included). So not very likely.

However, with a two-hand weapon, chances of hitting the target increases considerably. And if firing a burst from 16m away, the robber would very likely have been hit with some of the bullets.
At Heathrow I always see them with MP5's so I assumed they were full auto. Thanks for the correction. Here cops in Serbia carry AK's!

[BiZ]

At Heathrow I always see them with MP5's so I assumed they were full auto. Thanks for the correction. Here cops in Serbia carry AK's!

Not all MP5 varients have burst or auto selection.
Even a fair few US LE Agencies only issue semis.

Corbis close up of UK Police MP5.
http://xs71.xs.to/pics/06106/4215573285.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs71&d=06106&f=4215573285.jpg)

[PeterG]

It is actually quite difficult to shoot accurately with a pistol, doubly so i imagine, when the adrenaline is flowing...Being a pretty good with the G3 rifle in the army, i was very surprised at how poor i did the first time i fired the glock. And all the other times i've fired pistols and revolvers as well, for that matter!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Hey Geezah I miss shots with my enfield at less then 50 yards.

Your point?

apart from I'm a *censored**censored**censored**censored* shot?

:)

[Pindeho]

last I heard, only 2 members of SO19 shoot privately. Now this is the met, what should we expect. But his proficiency should be called into question.

[Geezah]

Hey Geezah I miss shots with my enfield at less then 50 yards.

Your point?

apart from I'm a *censored**censored**censored**censored* shot?

:)

My point in all this is, the PO has obviously passed what ever qualifications POs need to to carry firearms, given the majority of Officers do not carry any type of sidearm that fires a projectile, and seeing as he passed the qualifications and is stationed at Downing Street concerns me.
Now, as far as comparisons I would not compare this Officer to normal beat Officers over here, because these Officers are not part of the layers of protection that take care of the Primeminster/President.

And Min, I sure all that Latex plays a major part in why you can't hit you mark at 50tds with your Enfield p-)

[Mastermind]

I have seen quite a bit of combat in person ...and I have been shot at by seasoned enemy forces. I have been missed by the best hundreds of times and I have missed them hundreds of times. For every enemy I killed, I must have discharged thousands of rounds. I have been a Prison Guard, recieved police weapons training, and have been through civilian weapons handling training. I have many friends who are cops and some who have killed in the line of duty...they all say the same thing...they never really aimed...they just instinctively shot...their training did very little good in the heat of the moment. I have seen footage of cops and bad guys shooting at each other at point blank range and missing over and over. Combat shooting is not what everyone who has never done it thinks it is. It is not shooting at nice paper targets on a safe and secure shooting range. Combat shooting is really, really difficult to do with even the slimist degree of accuracy. Adreanline pumps you up, you shake and rattle and dodge and move and under those circumstances, hits are more a matter of blind luck than determined skill. I think it was Wyatt Earp who said (paraphrasing, of course) that the man who wins a gun fight is not the man who is the quickest or the man who is the best shot...but the man who has the best nerves.

I think the guy who missed is still a hero. He tried. That

[Mastermind]

I have seen quite a bit of combat in person ...and I have been shot at by seasoned enemy forces. I have been missed by the best hundreds of times and I have missed them hundreds of times. For every enemy I killed, I must have discharged thousands of rounds. I have been a Prison Guard, recieved police weapons training, and have been through civilian weapons handling training. I have many friends who are cops and some who have killed in the line of duty...they all say the same thing...they never really aimed...they just instinctively shot...their training did very little good in the heat of the moment. I have seen footage of cops and bad guys shooting at each other at point blank range and missing over and over. Combat shooting is not what everyone who has never done it thinks it is. It is not shooting at nice paper targets on a safe and secure shooting range. Combat shooting is really, really difficult to do with even the slimist degree of accuracy. Adreanline pumps you up, you shake and rattle and dodge and move and under those circumstances, hits are more a matter of blind luck than determined skill. I think it was Wyatt Earp who said (paraphrasing, of course) that the man who wins a gun fight is not the man who is the quickest or the man who is the best shot...but the man who has the best nerves.

I think the guy who missed is still a hero. He tried.

[Mastermind]

I have seen quite a bit of combat in person ...and I have been shot at by seasoned enemy forces. I have been missed by the best hundreds of times and I have missed them hundreds of times. For every enemy I killed, I must have discharged thousands of rounds. I have been a Prison Guard, recieved police weapons training, and have been through civilian weapons handling training. I have many friends who are cops and some who have killed in the line of duty...they all say the same thing...they never really aimed...they just instinctively shot...their training did very little good in the heat of the moment. I have seen footage of cops and bad guys shooting at each other at point blank range and missing over and over. Combat shooting is not what everyone who has never done it thinks it is. It is not shooting at nice paper targets on a safe and secure shooting range. Combat shooting is really, really difficult to do with even the slimist degree of accuracy. Adreanline pumps you up, you shake and rattle and dodge and move and under those circumstances, hits are more a matter of blind luck than determined skill. I think it was Wyatt Earp who said (paraphrasing, of course) that the man who wins a gun fight is not the man who is the quickest or the man who is the best shot...but the man who has the best nerves.

I think the guy who missed is still a hero. He tried. That took guts.

[Yimmy]

I have seen quite a bit of combat in person ... I have been a Prison Guard...their training did very little good in the heat of the moment.

May I ask what combat you saw, I assume you were also in the forces in addition to a prison guard?

And their training must have been of very poor quality if it didn't help.

[Oddbod]

All this "well, he tried" stuff doesn't wash. Nor does the excuse of "stress of the moment."
This officer is being paid a hell of a lot more than a Beat Officer because he is supposed to be a LOT better trained for a specific duty.
If the thief had been a terrorist attempting to assassinate the PM, then he would possibly have missed then as well.
More training needed.

PS There is more than one Police Force in the UK that will NOT consider an officer for firearms duty if he has "civilian" firearms experience!

[ogukuo72]

Have anyone here tried shooting at a moving target with a pistol before?

[Hollis]

Me thinketh Mastermind's computer has the hickups.

After farts on a shooting is just that.. It worked out. No loosers. Why belabor a situation?

[MrScruff]

Funny, only last week I was having an argument with Geezah about why civilians should not be armed.

[Lokos]

...and I have been shot at by seasoned enemy forces. I have been missed by the best hundreds of times and I have missed them hundreds of times.

Which war? Which seasoned enemy forces?

Lokos

[Durandal]

Have anyone here tried shooting at a moving target with a pistol before?

Or moving and shooting at a target moving.

Most cops can't. Lets be honest.

I am not belling the LE guys and gals out there protecting us civvies, but lets be honest. A police officer doesn't get trained like some FBI HRT sniper.

[Para]

The Police always claim to be so good, but they do make a hell of lot of mistakes

[Geezah]

Funny, only last week I was having an argument with Geezah about why civilians should not be armed.

Are we now comparing LE to Civvies, and I thought the arguement was over arming more LEOs, and your reason against it was that you didn't like the idea of getting shot going for a Tic Tac?

If LE are not routinely armed because they only save firearms for the best of the best(also because the UK wants to maintain and unarmed force), then because of this train of thought I see a problem. The Officer in question should not be armed, until a, he has requalified or b, give an aduacate explanation why he did not hit his mark.
Trying to compare armed civvies to LE, is just bloody silly, I could probably say with some confidence that I have more range time in than the Officer in question!

[MrScruff]

Are we now comparing LE to Civvies, and I thought the arguement was over arming more LEOs, and your reason against it was that you didn't like the idea of getting shot going for a Tic Tac?
No, it was about allowing all civvies to carry arms after someone was mugged on a towpath actually. Now you're complaining about a trained officer missing a single shot but were more than willing to let civilians carry and use handguns with nothing but a gun license.


Trying to compare armed civvies to LE, is just bloody silly, I could probably say with some confidence that I have more range time in than the Officer in question!
Ever had to draw your weapon on someone and then take the decision to end that person's life? While considering the risk that person poses to the public and whether this outweights the consequences of you firing? I haven't, but I do not blame this guy for a single second and would feel instensly sorry for him had he injured someone besides the criminal.

Oh crap! The paper target is moving slowly towards me while I stand with my shiny glasses and ear defenders on!

[Yimmy]

If anything we should be asking why the officer used his pistol (his secondary weapon), instead of his MP5 carbine with associated scope.

Or alternatively, why he wasn't issued an MP5.

[Geezah]

Are we now comparing LE to Civvies, and I thought the arguement was over arming more LEOs, and your reason against it was that you didn't like the idea of getting shot going for a Tic Tac?

No, it was about allowing all civvies to carry arms after someone was mugged on a towpath actually. Now you're complaining about a trained officer missing a single shot but were more than willing to let civilians carry and use handguns with nothing but a gun license.

I firmly believe that law abiding citizens should be given the choice to carry firearms for self defense,so long as they fall within set guidelines.Why is this such a problem?

And just why are you trying to compare this to a firearms qualified Police Officer that is stationed at Downing Street missing his mark, where is there any type of comparison?

Nice Red Herring!




Trying to compare armed civvies to LE, is just bloody silly, I could probably say with some confidence that I have more range time in than the Officer in question!

Ever had to draw your weapon on someone and then take the decision to end that person's life? While considering the risk that person poses to the public and whether this outweights the consequences of you firing? I haven't, but I do not blame this guy for a single second and would feel instensly sorry for him had he injured someone besides the criminal.

This is where your training should kick in, it should be like auto-pilot, for him given where he is stationed and the fact he carries a firearm in a country that does not like the idea of an armed Police Force, this should be first nature!
As to whether or not I have drawm down on anyone, the anwser to that is no, I hope I never have to, but hopefully my range time will do the talking for me if it evers come down to it.



Oh crap! The paper target is moving slowly towards me while I stand with my shiny glasses and ear defenders on!

What.......another one of your melodramtic comments, is this directed at me or the Police Officer that missed his mark?

[LaoSexMachine]

If anything we should be asking why the officer used his pistol (his secondary weapon), instead of his MP5 carbine with associated scope.

Or alternatively, why he wasn't issued an MP5.

If he can't hit a target from 15 yards away he shouldn't be having a gun.JMO

[Mastermind]

Sorry 'bout the 'puter craziy posts...crap happens.

I Served in Vietnam with B Troop, 2nd Sqdrn, 17th Armored Cav, recon, 101st Airborne division 1967 through 1968...decorations = Purple Heart (x2) (wounded in left arm and again in the legs by schrapnell..once from RPG the other from 57mm recc rifle fire)), 2 Bronz Stars (1 with "V" device), Army Commendation Medal and Vietnamese Medal of Valor ...among other lesser decorations. I was one of two men who made it all the way through the tour without having to be evacuated because of wounds or death of the men in the original debarcation.

I served 12 years as a Prison Guard in the New Mexico State Penitentiary.

I have shot at moving human targets with just about every fire arms in the arsenal from .45 AP to .50 cal MG. I can tell you honestly, well trained as you like, I never met anyone that can shoot straight (like on a shooting range) when the enemy is shooting back. There are no real life "Dirty Harry" types out there...none that I ever met anyway. And I met some pretty darn good people in combat, both friendly and enemy.

If you think I am off base on this, let me hear from you after you have engaged an enemy that is returning fire at 15 yards or so....you might be the exception to my experience.

[Yimmy]

not all DPG guys get issued with MP5's i don't know if you've ever seen them but they stand there and look pretty with a glock 17 for 8 hours then go home they aren't SO19

Yes, well, perhaps they should be issued carbines - otherwise they are rather limited in the amount of diplomat protecting they can do.

[ogukuo72]

People seem to have a mistakened impression of what a CPT does. It's to get the PUP out of - as the Americans might say - Dodge City, not engage in a shoot-out with the assailants. That's where the CAT comes in, to pull the PUP's AOTF.

(And if you haven't had enough, I can drop some more accronyms and terms to show how "in the know" I am!)


Or moving and shooting at a target moving.

Most cops can't. Lets be honest.

I am not belling the LE guys and gals out there protecting us civvies, but lets be honest. A police officer doesn't get trained like some FBI HRT sniper.

But seriously, Durandal nailed the issue. Most cops and soldiers couldn't make that kind of shot in highly complex situations like that. They're simply not trained to do that. It's easier for a soldier in fact, because he didn't have to worry about civilians, where a stray shot might end up etc, and he's usually armed with a rifle.

Shooting a moving target often involves leading the target. Anyone who has done trap shooting or gone hunting will tell you it isn't the easiest thing, even when stationary and armed with a rifle with a good scope. And if the cop finds that he's in a crowd, and leading a target would mean aiming away from a target (possibly towards civilians in the background), well, I'm not sure if it is responsible of him to fire off that round.

[Geezah]

People seem to have a mistakened impression of what a CPT does. It's to get the PUP out of - as the Americans might say - Dodge City, not engage in a shoot-out with the assailants. That's where the CAT comes in, to pull the PUP's AOTF.

(And if you haven't had enough, I can drop some more accronyms and terms to show how "in the know" I am!)



But seriously, Durandal nailed the issue. Most cops and soldiers couldn't make that kind of shot in highly complex situations like that. They're simply not trained to do that. It's easier for a soldier in fact, because he didn't have to worry about civilians, where a stray shot might end up etc, and he's usually armed with a rifle.

Shooting a moving target often involves leading the target. Anyone who has done trap shooting or gone hunting will tell you it isn't the easiest thing, even when stationary and armed with a rifle with a good scope. And if the cop finds that he's in a crowd, and leading a target would mean aiming away from a target (possibly towards civilians in the background), well, I'm not sure if it is responsible of him to fire off that round.

Given the situation,and the fact this took place in Knightsbridge(my ex used to work in Harvey Nichols and I know the area well) he should not have fired his sidearm if he was not totally sure of hitting his mark, IMHO.

My whole beef here is the amount of training these guys get, in my mind they should be the British equivilent of the SS stationed at the Whitehouse,imho.

[ogukuo72]

Given the situation,and the fact this took place in Knightsbridge(my ex used to work in Harvey Nichols and I know the area well) he should not have fired his sidearm if he was not totally sure of hitting his mark, IMHO.

My whole beef here is the amount of training these guys get, in my mind they should be the British equivilent of the SS stationed at the Whitehouse,imho.

Yes, I think this criticism is closer to the mark. The policeman shouldn't have fired the shot at all.

[Belrick]

Link (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006110337,00.html)

WTF.......what distance do these guys have to qualify at, and why the hell is he carrying a firearm if he can't hit his mark at 15yd, especially, if he is stationed at Downing Street?

How many Royal noses are there in an imperial yard? 2.165 or 3.76?

Man its grand to see articles using such a brilliant measurement system such as how many hectares to the gallon etc.

[Belrick]

Yes, I think this criticism is closer to the mark. The policeman shouldn't have fired the shot at all.

Could the police officer have fired and missed his mark and potentially hit innocents if police officers wern't armed?

[Geezah]

Could the police officer have fired and missed his mark and potentially hit innocents if police officers wern't armed?

I get where you're going with this but given the current State of the World and there are plenty of nutjobs carrying firearms(procured illegally) and the threat of Global Terrorism you need an armed detterant.
The crim he engaged was armed, nuff said......

[Durandal]

I agree with Geezah in this regard. Engage with force an armed perp.

Just do not expect every cop to be a marksman. There are to many cops needed to assume they will all be a crack shot, especially in circumstances that make the shot difficult.

[joe mama]

Could the police officer have fired and missed his mark and potentially hit innocents if police officers wern't armed?

Yeah, this would have gone much better if the officer wasn't armed, and then couldn't have possibly hit innocents and the criminal, still armed (since he's a criminal and wouldn't care how many laws you have that say he can't be armed, and the average joe can't be armed, and the cops can't be armed), started shooting innocents. The officer could have said "stop that" in a firm voice. And if that didn't work, he could have said "stop that or I shall be forced to say 'stop that' again".
An armed cop MIGHT miss a dangerous criminal and hit an innocent. He also might crash his car into a group of infants and grandmothers and puppies waiting at a bus stop. I'd rather have those slim risks so that, when needed, the officer is armed. I, unlike you, apparently, don't live in a fantasy land where all criminals really have a heart of gold and will never hurt anyone that doesn't threaten them and the criminals obey the laws saying they can't be armed.

[joe mama]

How many Royal noses are there in an imperial yard? 2.165 or 3.76?

Man its grand to see articles using such a brilliant measurement system such as how many hectares to the gallon etc.

GRIN, you got me with that one. Even if yer an antigun bastid, yer a funny one!
;)