View Full Version : Chavez wants the Netherlands Antilles
Venezuela has had it's eye on the Antilles for ages
DEN HAAG
It seemed to come out of nowhere: minister Kamp from the Defence department who told parliament that he wasn't expecting Venezuela to take over 'our' islands Curacao, Aruba and Bonaire with military force. But a war with the South American country isn't entirely unthinkable. Venezuela has had it's eye on the nearby downwind islands for a while and president Chavez is investing a lot of money in weapons. The minister acknowledged that Chavez wants to boost his reserve army from 100.00 troops to 2 million. Kamp said that the Netherlands will try to use political and diplomatic means that Chavez will eventually pose a serious threat to Aruba and the Antilles.
The comparison with the Falklands war between Great Brittain and Argintina in 1982 springs to mind, were the Brittish defended their Falklands islands off the coast of Argentina from an eager Argentinian government, that had laid claim on the islands for years. "The claim Venezuela has made on the downwind islands has been there for century's, " according to Gert Oostindie of the royal institution for Taal-, Land- and Volkenkunde in Leiden. "Not untill the seventies of the last centuries did the Venezuelan government give this claim up. As long as the Netherlands are in control, Venezuela would not claim the islands anymore."
But with the rise of power from the populistic president Hugo Chavez another wind has started blowing. Chavez openly argues with the United States, has strong ties with communist Cuba and holds close (business) contacts with other enemies of the US, like Libia, Syria and Iran.
Furthermore a Dutch Curacao poses a threat in his eyes. Chavez claims to have secret documents that the US wants to invade Venezuela from this island to force him out of power. "For this reason an invasion might go down well in the nationalistic country," according to Oostindie.
Bovendien is een Nederlands Curaçao in zijn ogen een gevaar. Chávez zegt geheime documenten te hebben waaruit blijkt dat de VS vanaf dit eiland Venezuela wil binnenvallen om hem af te zetten. „In het nationalistische land zou een invasie daarom wel eens goed kunnen vallen,” zegt Oostindië. "Though Chavez is probably not that stupid. He would be invading an EU- and Natocountry."
If it does come to a military confrontation, the population of the ABC-islands shouldn't worry too much. Chavez may want to invest millions in Russian and Chinese jets and bombs, the navy however posesses only one ship according to Kamp, and it's a secondhand one at that. An attack with it should be easily countered by the Dutch armed forces.
The strenght of the Venezuelan army however is a bit bigger that that single vessel according to the website defensieforum.nl. The country seems to have multiple navy ships and besides the ordered Mig fighters it posesses 22 F16's. According to a number of experts this means that Venezuela does have a chance of military succes. The Netherlands simply does not have enough troops on the bases on Aruba and Curacao to counter a large offensive. And the permenantly stationed navy frigate will have a hard time dealing with a large scale fighter attack.
There is however a scenarion to retake the ABC islands after an occupation. This would have to be done from the 1000 kilomaters distant upwind island st. Maarten. The scenario has been set up for an IT-course for defence employees. In short the Netherlands will start with bombing the Venezuelan navy and airforce to bits after which the 6 operational frigates will steam up towards the ABC islands.
http://www.limburger.nl/Index
if I were Chavez I'd wait untill the upcoming ultra left government has sold what's left of our military and it's smooth sailing from there :D
I find it unlikely that he'd try anything but I'm disapointed in our defenceminister that he does not use this as a tool to get some more funding for the military.
I say bring'em on, I've never been to the Antilles and I really want to go :D
ed316
03-10-2006, 05:57 PM
*coughOperationJustCausecough*
G-Capo
03-10-2006, 06:02 PM
Old news never going to happen.His Navy does not have the right equipment to pull such a operation off.
Any military build up could signal the Colombian Navy to high alert over disputed waters with Venezuela.
*coughOperationJustCausecough*
I don't get it
EvanL
03-10-2006, 06:04 PM
Netherlands wouldn't stand a chance at that. Venezuala has way too many people in it's armed forces and the Nederlands is too far away.
G-Capo
03-10-2006, 06:06 PM
Netherlands wouldn't stand a chance at that. Venezuala has way too many people in it's armed forces and the Nederlands is too far away.
The Netherlands alone could not hold off the Venezuelens,Although I doubt such a bold operation from Chavez.But this is considered EU territory would draw in some of the best Navies in the world [UK,France]
ed316
03-10-2006, 06:07 PM
I don't get it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Just_Cause
Resurrection
03-10-2006, 06:08 PM
How does the Venezuelan Navy look like? Any amphibious capability?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Just_Cause
I know what operation just cause is, I just don't see the relevance here
How does the Venezuelan Navy look like? Any amphibious capability?
they have 4 LST's that can transport 200 marines and their vehicles and 6 Lupo frigates afaik and a number of small missile boats that could be usefull (it's not that far away from the mainland)
Resurrection
03-10-2006, 06:11 PM
they have 4 LST's that can transport 200 marines and their vehicles and 6 Lupo frigates afaik and a number of small missile boats that could be usefull (it's not that far away from the mainland)
You guys are f*cked.
Midav
03-10-2006, 06:13 PM
Chavez needs a good Dutch rub p-)
Netherlands wouldn't stand a chance at that. Venezuala has way too many people in it's armed forces and the Nederlands is too far away.
they are very small islands, simply flooding them with people won't work because they are going to have to sleep in tents while we bomb them from st Maarten ;)
Especially if minister Kamp gets his cruise missiles ... hell we could bomb Caracas with those :D
I'm pretty sure we could still kick them off the islands, the big question is wether or not the current political climate anybody want's to make a case for actually going to war
Resurrection
03-10-2006, 06:14 PM
Of course it's a reason to go to war. Don't you guys have citizens living there?
we are about the get an ultra left government!
nuff said
G-Capo
03-10-2006, 06:16 PM
Any bombing on a South American nation would draw the US in with the Rio accords...In other words one bird lands in Venezuela USN will have to get involved.
Ea$y-8
03-10-2006, 06:18 PM
Hugo Chavez is talking really big. Who is he to think he can order european countries and America around??? Since when did Venezuela become a superpower that can order people around. I think a "Just Cause" styled operation is in order to go in and "correct" him.
Resurrection
03-10-2006, 06:18 PM
Has there already been an election? And why the hell would you want (not saying you do) an ultra-left government?
wulfstan
03-10-2006, 06:19 PM
This is like some strange war game, Venezuala v Nederlands. Personally i would love to see the Oranjes kick their ass, but i have a view of the modern Dutch not putting up much of a fight...
ed316
03-10-2006, 06:20 PM
I know what operation just cause is, I just don't see the relevance here
America is not to keen about tensions in our backyard. Noriega did a lot of sabre ratteling before 41 acted.
Has there already been an election? And why the hell would you want (not saying you do) an ultra-left government?
nope, just the city governments (don't know the english words) and that's been an overwhelming success for the left side! National elections are set next years.
We (well not me, I'm horrified by the thought) want an ultra left government because the current right'ish government sucks
anyways, maybe we should get the Peruvians to give us back our Cruiser :)
http://www.marine.nl/images/7%20kruiser%201953-1973_tcm10-13995.jpg
America is not to keen about tensions in our backyard. Noriega did a lot of sabre ratteling before 41 acted.
yeah no offense but we don't have that much faith in the US in our colonial affairs ... I do hope we're not going to depend on American promises this time around
Resurrection
03-10-2006, 06:27 PM
You Dutch... http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/5875/tsk5co.gif
Greek soldier
03-10-2006, 06:28 PM
sp2c, if necessary, we'll lend you the Kortenaer frigates ;) ;)
But no need, the Walrus class submarines kick ass! And they are indeed capable units :) :)
Resurrection
03-10-2006, 06:29 PM
The return of the smileys.
Ea$y-8
03-10-2006, 06:29 PM
America is not to keen about tensions in our backyard. Noriega did a lot of sabre ratteling before 41 acted.
Chavez and Noriega will probably meet the same fate... being ousted and thrown in prison for the rest of their lives.
G-Capo
03-10-2006, 06:32 PM
Two totally different cases...
Resurrection
03-10-2006, 06:33 PM
Easy you seem too tense for a 16 year old. Let's go have some fun in the babes thread.
ed316
03-10-2006, 06:34 PM
Two totally different cases...
but you know what I'm getting at though.
Violet Fashion by Mindy
03-10-2006, 06:34 PM
Netherlands wouldn't stand a chance at that. Venezuala has way too many people in it's armed forces and the Nederlands is too far away.
They said that about the Falklands man.
G-Capo
03-10-2006, 06:35 PM
but you know what I'm getting at though.
Yes of course,But the Noreiga was a drug pusher with an army full of thugs and a population of a country less than most US states.
I say we expand our air and naval presence on the islands ... 1 or 2 LCF's, a sub and a dozen F16's should even the odds a bit :)
chopsticks
03-10-2006, 07:22 PM
I say we expand our marine corps too. Heck, I say we expand the entire dutch military...
true that ... but I don't see it happening
fortunately we have a new LPD well on it's way :D
Honcho
03-10-2006, 07:40 PM
I say we expand our air and naval presence on the islands ... 1 or 2 LCF's, a sub and a dozen F16's should even the odds a bit :)
I personally see a great threat from the probable elections of the left-wing parties.
if pvda and groenlinks will get power, say goodbye to our military and say goodbye to a whealthy netherlands. they will *censored**censored**censored**censored* up everything!
yes I'm horrified too but one should allways look at the bright side of life
if they put me out of a job I will live out the rest of my live living of welfare and playing hockey ... either that or I get the guys together and we do a military coup ;)
I'd appoint myself to general and call myself prime minister sp3c ... next stop, Netherlands New Guinnea ;)
remo williams
03-10-2006, 07:44 PM
shyte in one hand and want in the other,then see which fills up faster..he's got high hopes,but it's good to have big dreams.p-)
Graspol
03-10-2006, 08:15 PM
I predict a riot.... lalalalalalala
Serious though. If Venezuela would attack and occupy the Antilles,i foresee a resemblance with the Falklands. I.e we kick them off the isles by force!
Jani.R
03-10-2006, 08:41 PM
I predict a riot.... lalalalalalala
Serious though. If Venezuela would attack and occupy the Antilles,i foresee a resemblance with the Falklands. I.e we kick them off the isles by force!
How many carriers do you guys have? :|
Greek soldier
03-10-2006, 08:42 PM
They only have one LPD "Rotterdam" and the soon-to-be-ready LPD "Johan De Witt".
carriers?
hahahaha screw that
http://www.investinsxm.com/images/airport.jpg
G-Capo
03-10-2006, 09:01 PM
Airfields can be taken out by Special Forces,or the mile long runways can be impacted with airfield busting bombs :(
I suppose we would station our own troops to prevent nasty surpises from special forces and st Maarten is out of range of Venezuelan aircraft :P
well their F16's could hit it in theory but they couldn't get home ... we on the other hand have KDC10 tankers :)
Greek soldier
03-10-2006, 09:20 PM
How many LCF frigate do you have. I know that they operate the SM-3 missile.
4 and they do not operate the sm3 missile (yet), Tomahawks have been aproved though
Greek soldier
03-10-2006, 09:27 PM
WHy not? Is the crew still under training or there is a "bureaucratic" problem with the US approval?
At least, yes, you have Tomahawks and it is a priviledge for your Navy to have them.
the SM-2 blockIII is the standard setup but there's rumours that we are going to buy SM-3 but this needs to be aproved first (it's all about the money).
Tomahawks have been aproved but we haven't placed any orders yet so no we don't have them atm
Greek soldier
03-10-2006, 09:39 PM
Do you have at least the RAM or the ESSM? 'Cos our improved Kortenaer frigates (2 actually) will get either of two systems
goalkeeper pwnz RAM
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/qatar/images/qatar5.jpg
and they do have Evolved Sea Sparrows as well, all work with the new APAR radar
rgm-84 Harpoon is allso installed
Greek soldier
03-10-2006, 09:47 PM
At least you have a system that can intercept an aircraft in a range max. 65 kms. ;)
and can start hitting land targets at double that range ... let's see mister Chavez top that muhahahahaha
then there's Tomahawks in the near future :)
BloodyTalon
03-10-2006, 09:58 PM
carriers?
hahahaha screw that
http://www.investinsxm.com/images/airport.jpg
My friend, you don't know the true value of a proper carrier group! It's an airbase, firebase, beachhead, missle silo, etc. rolled into one. And the best part is how mobile they are. And unlike a static airbase you can move it at any moment to avoid attack. Chavez's forces wouldn't stand a chance against a good carrier group.
with the cash we'd be willing to spent on a carrier I'd rather put my money on an airport the enemy can't reach thank you ;)
I know a carrier group would be usefull but our current defence budget simply does not allow it (unfortunately) but there's still a very persistant rumour about a possible LHD (rotary wings only) we might start building from 2008
G-Capo
03-10-2006, 10:25 PM
Venezuela has aerial refulers aswell,They are will with in range :)
really?
what type?
F16 is not hose and drogue
maybe we need to place a patriot battery around the airport then :)
and have an LCF cruise in between the islands
M1A2U2
03-11-2006, 02:30 AM
Dont worry guys, the US wont let the lefties mess around with out allies, especially in our backyard.
ArchDeacon
03-11-2006, 03:13 AM
We've been waiting for a good reason to step on this cucaracha for a while, I think an invasion of your islands would qualify.
just don't sell aircraft to the enemy this time around and we'll be plenty happy
SeanAshi
03-11-2006, 05:59 AM
How about another Operation Summer Pulse? Seven carrier battle groups would make you think twice about doing anything stupid.
well problem is ... we don't have 7 carriers ;)
there's Carribean Lion in may
Large exercise in the Carribean
http://217.18.64.165/imageview.asp?bestandid=1003384
Defence is holding the excercise Caribbean Lion 2006 from the 23rd of may to the 15th of june in the Caribean. With this excercise the Netherlands will develop, together with the overseas territories, her ability to deploy landoperations in an international environment. The excercise will be under the command of the Royal Netherlands Navy.
The Netherlands will take part with units of all the armed forces, among which many ships, marineunits, tanks, armoured vehicles, aircraft and a platoon Marechaussees. According to the current planning there will also be units from Belgium, Canada, France, the United Kingdom and the United States taking part.
The excercise will takes place on and around several caribbean islands, including Curacao, Aruba, st Maarten and Guadeloupe. In total there will be about 4000 troops taking part of which about 1500 will be put ashore.
http://www.landmacht.nl/toon.asp?id=103852
The_Frans_Bauer_3000
03-11-2006, 07:13 AM
What's the matter with you people?
Just paradrop my ass into Venezuela and I'll take care of the entire thing.
BAUER-POWER!!!
that would be inhuman ... amnesty would be all over us!
Ruledbyjames
03-11-2006, 08:43 AM
Here is a list of the ships used by the Dutch Navy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ships_of_the_Royal_Netherlands_Navy
and Marine corps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Marine_Corps
Victis Honor
03-11-2006, 09:11 AM
Hell this woud be a great reason to get a larger defense budget, that way we can finally get those Thawks. And the marines on the isles will give a hell of a account against any invaders, with the help of the local militia. (or whatever they are called)
they are called Antillian volunteer corps this year ;)
I say we arm them and train them to dutch standards, call 'em Koninklijk Nederlands Antilliaans Leger (KNAL :) ) and let them kick chavez of the beaches :D
Victis Honor
03-11-2006, 09:19 AM
KNAL great i like it, i hope he waits a few years so i can finish my education i woud hate to go to war halfway in it. And to top it of its a mechant naval ebucation (marof) so i woud problabe join the navy.
G-Capo
03-11-2006, 11:33 AM
Is the Netherlands that boring that you guys actually want war?
in one word?
yes :)
no not really but if I had to choose between going to war and Chavez planting his flag on our soil?
G-Capo
03-11-2006, 12:31 PM
Lets just say there's a better chance of Congo attacking Australia,Then there is of Chavez attacking you guys :)
Resurrection
03-11-2006, 12:33 PM
If that wasn't exaggerating I don't know what is.
:p
Lets just say there's a better chance of Congo attacking Australia,Then there is of Chavez attacking you guys :)
I know ... don't tell anybody else though, we might get a higher defence budget out of Chavez' tough talk :D
maybe we can finally get that LHD the navy's been asking for!
G-Capo
03-11-2006, 03:39 PM
If that wasn't exaggerating I don't know what is.
:p
He does not have the military resources nor capacity to take the islands and hold off a Netherlands assault.In 5-10 years sure but not know.
he definatly has the means to take the islands, keeping them is indeed a different matter even if we have to do it all by our lonesome
remember, there's only 2 marine (infantry) companies and a single M frigate (hr. ms. van Amstel afaik) stationed and a light tender (hr. ms. Pelikaan) there on permanent basis
Empulse
09-18-2008, 08:55 AM
Especially if minister Kamp gets his cruise missiles ... hell we could bomb Caracas with those :D
Do you know whether they have actually been purchased? Tried to figure out but have been unsuccessful. Also would it be Toma's or JASSM?
the proposal was for both afaik, tomahawks on the LCF and JASSM on the F16
the Tomahawk deal is off the table at this point but the purchase JASSM has been approved by parliament december last year or something like that
Maskirovka
09-18-2008, 05:31 PM
The Netherlands simply does not have enough troops on the bases on Aruba and Curacao to counter a large offensive. And the permenantly stationed navy frigate will have a hard time dealing with a large scale fighter attack.
What military bases does the the dutch have on the Netherland Antilles and where exactly are they based? Also wondering what they have stationed there in peacetime except that frigate.
BTW, I thought Aruba and Curacao had voted to be more or less independent. What obligations does the Netherlands have to come for their defend? IMO, if you have decided to be sovereign you can´t count on the "mother"nation to run to your defense and kiss your boo-boos away. You can´t have the cookie and eat it at the same time...
Jurinko
09-18-2008, 05:49 PM
I would love to hear hard-left European government begging US for military help roflbut with commies you never know, they might make alliance with Chavez and Ortega instead :)
Who dosent want Curacao? Me wants too! But realistic... That would give the US a reason to invade, and they might just be looking for one...
http://www.curacao-travelguide.com/photos/curacao.jpg
i dont think he is that stupid, going to war with the Netherlands is going to war with Europe, and with all the other Nato countries. if he does do it on one day, well then i guess i gave him to much credit.
delio
09-18-2008, 06:54 PM
The Netherlands Antilles: It's the new Miami!
The only Venezuelans invading the Netherlands Antilles are upper middle class Venezuelan tourists. That includes those that got their money by robbing before Chavez came to power, as well as the horde of barrio nouveau riche, that've gotten to where they are by robbing immediately sense Chavez came to power. The former probably includes FAV fighter pilots taking a break from Chavez and the former. In latin America America nouveau riche are specially hated by the stablish 'cultured' class. Venezuelan fighter pilots - as is the general rule in Latin America - come almost exclusively from the families with sangre azul. You know, the socially prominent, wealthy families so well described in Gabriel Garcia Marquez' best works.
1) What are the capabilities of Venezuelan Air Force to conduct aerial anti-ship operations?
2)Are there any land-based ASM's that could be moved to ABC islands after marine landings?
3) Are the Otomat SSM's still operational in the Venezuela Navy frigates?
Does Hugo pack enough punch to keep the Dutch fleet away if he takes the ABC islands and stations?
It is more difficult for the Royal Dutch Air Force to conduct aerial operations as well if there is a squadron of F-16's in Curacao.
Empulse
09-19-2008, 04:41 AM
What military bases does the the dutch have on the Netherland Antilles and where exactly are they based? Also wondering what they have stationed there in peacetime except that frigate.
BTW, I thought Aruba and Curacao had voted to be more or less independent. What obligations does the Netherlands have to come for their defend? IMO, if you have decided to be sovereign you can´t count on the "mother"nation to run to your defense and kiss your boo-boos away. You can´t have the cookie and eat it at the same time...
As a matter of fact, the US has two forward operating locations on the Netherlands Antilles, one on Curaçao and one on Aruba. Surprisingly, I had never heard anything about these bases in the Dutch mainstream media. According to internet sources these bases are used to fight FARC from.
Chavez fears these bases will be used by the US to launch an attack on Venezuela from. Hypothetically speaking he might be right as the islands are only 50 kilometers away from the Venezuelan coast.
Chavez, moreover, claimed that everything within 300 nauthical miles from the Venezuelan coast belongs to Venezuela, causing some uproar in the Netherlands.
Dutch government officials assured Venezuela that the Netherlands will not allow the US to use their bases for a military assault on them. In reality we will all know that we would allow the US to do so. Particularly because it would be in our interest to see Chavez gone, thus eliminating the possibility of an invasion of these Dutch islands.
The Netherlands has one naval base and a military base on Curaçao and another military base on Aruba. As far as I know there are two companies of marines, a frigate, a replenishment ship, two Canadian leased surveillance aircrafts and three coastal cutters.
I don't know whether we have military bases on the SSS islands (Sint Maarten, Sint Eustatius and Saba) nor do I know if we or the US has permanently military aircrafts deployed.
Not quite able to defend itself. However, if indications are there they want to invade these islands, the navy would be able to defend itself, particularly if they will get the cruise missles installed on the frigates. Additionally, the minister of foreign affairs has stressed more money is required for the military which hopefully will b approved. Recently, a second LPD was constructed and the number of marines will be increased.
I would love to hear hard-left European government begging US for military help roflbut with commies you never know, they might make alliance with Chavez and Ortega instead :)
I don't get it, are you suggesting the Dutch government is hard left communist or something?
In any case, we don't beg ... never have, probably never will and us asking the US for help would be a nice change of pace
Calanen
09-19-2008, 08:21 AM
i dont think he is that stupid, going to war with the Netherlands is going to war with Europe, and with all the other Nato countries. if he does do it on one day, well then i guess i gave him to much credit.
I dont think so, I think its just going to war with the Dutch. But that is enough. And Venezuala will lose.
Empulse
09-22-2008, 12:20 PM
Do you think any Walrus class subs will or are going to be deployed to the area since these Russian ships are heading for Venezuela now?
Some off topic info on the Walrus class:
http://www.heiszwolf.com/subs/walrus/walrus07.jpg
During this exercise the [I]Walrus (2) penetrates the US screen and 'sinks' many ships, including the US aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The submarine launches two attacks and manages to sneak away. To celebrate the sinking the crew designed a special T-shirt. Other ships that are sunk by the Walrus (2) during this exercise are: USS Boise SSN-764, Ro?m DDG-70, R? DDG-61, Ville De Quebec FFH/FFG-332, Stephen W. Grooves FFG-29, Holstein F-216, Vella Gulf CG-55, Mount Whitney LCC-20.
jupiter
09-22-2008, 12:38 PM
Is the Netherlands that boring that you guys actually want war?
Who said"If you want peace, be prepared for war'?
Do you think any Walrus class subs will or are going to be deployed to the area since these Russian ships are heading for Venezuela now?
Some off topic info on the Walrus class:
http://www.heiszwolf.com/subs/walrus/walrus07.jpg
During this exercise the [I]Walrus (2) penetrates the US screen and 'sinks' many ships, including the US aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The submarine launches two attacks and manages to sneak away. To celebrate the sinking the crew designed a special T-shirt. Other ships that are sunk by the Walrus (2) during this exercise are: USS Boise SSN-764, Ro?m DDG-70, R? DDG-61, Ville De Quebec FFH/FFG-332, Stephen W. Grooves FFG-29, Holstein F-216, Vella Gulf CG-55, Mount Whitney LCC-20.
they are there every now and again, I'm sure that if this thing flares up there will be a sub waiting
but it's not all that likely
LineDoggie
09-22-2008, 01:38 PM
they have 4 LST's that can transport 200 marines and their vehicles and 6 Lupo frigates afaik and a number of small missile boats that could be usefull (it's not that far away from the mainland)
Some Limpets would work nicely on those.... Then he can start on Dugout Canoes
donllano
09-22-2008, 03:34 PM
Despite recent purchases, the current state of the Venezuelan Navy is not very good. Last time I checked, both their submarines (Type 209) are in drydock and have been there for a couple of years and I think only two or three Lupo's are currently operational. The other ones are also in drydocks and also for a couple of years.
Some Limpets would work nicely on those.... Then he can start on Dugout Canoes
I think the local economy is based on fishery and tourism afaik
in the current political climate I think mining these waters may be politically 'unwise' ;)
personally I'd say clustermunitions like the ones used in the MLRS should be able to keep the beaches 'clean' for a while (untill they are targeted and destroyed) but I think we recently decided they are in fact pure evil
FlintHillBilly
09-22-2008, 05:43 PM
Easy you seem too tense for a 16 year old. Let's go have some fun in the babes thread.
Can you take my hand and show me where the babes thread is?! Didnt know one was here... haha
drunken sailor
09-22-2008, 06:30 PM
Does anyone here think that Putin is crazy enough to help Chavez try and seize the Islands?
I really don't think that sending the Russian flag ship on a suicide mission is Putin's style but who knows.
One thing I do no is that many Americans would be ticked to have their vacation spot ruined. I have never been there but I hear the trade winds can be pretty annoying after awhile.
Chavez and his mouth need to be squashed.
Benke
09-22-2008, 08:45 PM
Chavez considers Guyana should be part of his territory.
LineDoggie
09-22-2008, 09:10 PM
Whats Spanish for "Lebensraum"?
Fiber
09-23-2008, 01:33 AM
I'm going to St Maarten next year. Should I brush up on my Spanish?
Russian_dude
09-23-2008, 05:34 AM
One-on-one I think Venezuela will soon have the capability to take the islands and then hold them. However obviously not against the US.
widi243
09-23-2008, 06:39 AM
i dont think he is that stupid, going to war with the Netherlands is going to war with Europe, and with all the other Nato countries. if he does do it on one day, well then i guess i gave him to much credit.
Yeah but for now Geaorgia's case show that military Europe is totaly useless and this makes Chavez more courageous in their's operations.
His new ally give him encourage too.
I am fairly sure that there were no European militaries involved in "Georgia's case" unless you consider the Georgians Europeans in which case you would be right
but I may have missed the pressrelease on that one
RSone
09-23-2008, 07:00 AM
One-on-one I think Venezuela will soon have the capability to take the islands and then hold them. However obviously not against the US.
I know this is oversimplifying it, but we can quite easily float out on the carribean and shell the venezuelans. The RNLAF can operate out of Sint Maarten/Surinam/French Guyana and US controlled areas. after the shelling, bring in the marines and the army with the LPD's/JSS and air assets and retake the islands. Then steam up to Venezuelan coast an exact a little retaliatory campaign on Chavez and his croneys.
In the event of a quickly deteriorating situation in the West(as we like to call it) you can bet on it that the MOD budget will go up, allowing for more long range precision strike assets(the RNLAF is already looking into buying cruise missiles such as the JASSM) like the TACTOM's and VOLCANO shells for the LCF's.
That is, if our government has not completely lost it's balls by the time this scenario could become a reality
Whats Spanish for "Lebensraum"?
El hábitat
muttbutt
09-23-2008, 10:20 AM
One-on-one I think Venezuela will soon have the capability to take the islands and then hold them. However obviously not against the US.
Except of course the Dutch have a military that's been toughened and experienced in Afghanistan....several thousand battled up Dutchmen, Vs Hugo's shiny toy brigades...hmmm I think I'll put my money on the cloggiesp-)
aed1980
09-23-2008, 10:25 AM
This is the beginning of the end for chavez, excellent news!!!
Dispatcher
09-23-2008, 10:34 AM
This is the beginning of the end for chavez, excellent news!!!
Dude....
Check the date of the first post in this thread.
Enough has been said over these plans. Personally; Hugo's more then welcome to liberate the islands from the evil, meddlesome, colonials from the Netherlands, who actually want something to say about how their money is spent.....
He can fix their problems like he fixed the Venezuelan's problems.
Oh, wait. :roll:
aed1980
09-23-2008, 10:35 AM
Dude....
Check the date of the first post in this thread.
Enough has been said over these plans. Personally; Hugo's more then welcome to liberate the islands from the evil, meddlesome, colonials from the Netherlands, who actually want something to say about how their money is spent.....
He can fix their problems like he fixed the Venezuelan's problems.
Oh, wait. :roll:
I still think this is excellent news, dude.
Empulse
09-23-2008, 10:57 AM
Of course the Russians are not going to help Chavez the idiot to invade the Netherlands Antilles. That doesn't mean that our country won't observe the Russian fleet, being so close to Dutch territory.
If Chavez tries, however, he'll have to plan. His plans will likely be shortly after known to US intelligence. They will either let him try and then hit back, or they will inform the Dutch government to take the necessary preparations and send in the 4th fleet for support if required.
If our navy has enough time to get there, surely they'll be more than capable to destroy his misserable navy. Particularly with airsupport from Dutch F-16s from the SSS islands or Suriname.
What would be the most interesting, however, is what Colombia would do if such event would take place.
Empulse
09-23-2008, 11:10 AM
Dude....
Check the date of the first post in this thread.
Enough has been said over these plans. Personally; Hugo's more then welcome to liberate the islands from the evil, meddlesome, colonials from the Netherlands, who actually want something to say about how their money is spent.....
He can fix their problems like he fixed the Venezuelan's problems.
Oh, wait. :roll:
Are you really that ignorant? The Dutch government donates hundreds of millions of Euros to the Netherlands Antilles every year and you are wondering they want to be in charge of the spending?
In all the years that most islands of the Antilles could decide themselves what to spend the money on, the money disappeared as a result of corruption or was invested in crappy projects.
We have to train the Antilles police forces, we have to pay and train the coast guard, which stop drugs smuggling.
The local officials have shown to be incapable of handling the finance so we will have to do it ourselves. Most of the inhabitants agree with that.
There's a part, of which you perhaps belong, that wants to be independent. The candidate for the party that wants to declare independence has been in jail for corruption nor does he have enough support to get his independence.
I personally wouldn't mind if they would become independent. Let them try and I guarantee they will end up in a worse state they are in now and will shortly after start begging for money and support. :)
Viva la revolution aight? The lefties would love to see Chavez taking control.
Dispatcher
09-23-2008, 11:24 AM
Are you really that ignorant? The Dutch government donates hundreds of millions of Euros to the Netherlands Antilles every year and you are wondering they want to be in charge of the spending?
In all the years that most islands of the Antilles could decide themselves what to spend the money on, the money disappeared as a result of corruption or was invested in crappy projects.
We have to train the Antilles police forces, we have to pay and train the coast guard, which stop drugs smuggling.
The local officials have shown to be incapable of handling the finance so we will have to do it ourselves. Most of the inhabitants agree with that.
There's a part, of which you perhaps belong, that wants to be independent. The candidate for the party that wants to declare independence has been in jail for corruption nor does he have enough support to get his independence.
I personally wouldn't mind if they would become independent. Let them try and I guarantee they will end up in a worse state they are in now and will shortly after start begging for money and support. :)
Viva la revolution aight? The lefties would love to see Chavez taking control.
Sarcasm. It just doesnt work if the other party doesnt get it.
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc147/Hammertime12_photos/Smileys/36_20_1.gif
Ghelp
09-23-2008, 11:31 AM
Hmm Colombia would probably try and solve the crisis politicly I don't see us getting involved maybe to provide base for US and or Dutch aircraft and provide supplies.
Empulse
09-23-2008, 11:55 AM
Sarcasm. It just doesnt work if the other party doesnt get it.
I actually wrote I hope you are being sarcastic but then removed it. My apologies, I just wasn't sure and took the wrong door apparently p-).
m.i.t
09-23-2008, 12:36 PM
Will Holland fight for islands in case of invasion attack ?
Dispatcher
09-23-2008, 12:43 PM
I actually wrote I hope you are being sarcastic but then removed it. My apologies, I just wasn't sure and took the wrong door apparently p-).
No worries. p-)
Will Holland fight for islands in case of invasion attack ?
Yes. Without a doubt. But first we will debate the matter to the death. And our leaders will use strong language, like "Thats not nice", "Hey!" and if those dont work; "We will go to the UN if you dont pull back".
Then we have to debate, for a month or two, the ROE, build enough ships, buy enough jets. Then we will be all set for the expulsion from our islands of the Venezuelan hordes!
Just in time for 2025, me thinks.
That will teach Chavez!
(Sarcasm intended!)
oswald
09-23-2008, 12:54 PM
Send the Queen! She'll teach those basturds!
Dispatcher
09-23-2008, 12:56 PM
She'd stick her gun up Hugo's pooper.
And pull the trigger.
oswald
09-23-2008, 01:04 PM
I like her. http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg254/oswald621/smilies/yes.gif
m.i.t
09-23-2008, 01:08 PM
Was NATO for defend lands of members? Mr. Chavez should be warned which Holland is one of the nato members..
Actually it was neutral in Falkland war .Maybe it will be neutral again.
NATO charter doesn't cover the Netherlands Antilles afaik
also NATO wasn't neutral during the Falklands war, it was still allied to the United Kingdom ... just didn't get involved in it
Dispatcher
09-23-2008, 02:06 PM
NATO charter doesn't cover the Netherlands Antilles afaik
also NATO wasn't neutral during the Falklands war, it was still allied to the United Kingdom ... just didn't get involved in it
Has to do with the parallel beneath which the islands are situated afaik. And some clause in article 5 on colonial territory.
RSone
09-24-2008, 09:50 AM
The US 'd get involved though. Can't remember the name of the declaration/accord, but it basically means the US reserves the right to intervene in the carribean/south america, if things go south.
I'd hope the Gov. (particularly Balkie and co, if they're still in power when this should take place) show some nuts when this happens, but after the recent controversy about MOD van Middelkoop(he admitted to draftdodging because he'd "feel miserable in the army" and his slightly strange view on the world) i'm not so sure anymore.
There is little connection between the The Netherlands and the Antillean Islands in question. Several smaller islands have voted to become municipalities and as such, a direct part of The Netherlands proper. The larger islands are pretty much autonomous, but are tied to us by a financial "umbellical cord", if you will. That and tourism is pretty much the only connection. The Antilleans in The Netherlands are viewed as a largely criminal bunch(which isn't entirely unjustified, but in reality it's largely contained to the younger segment of the group. The entire group can be classified as underprivileged however) and the corruption on the home island isn't helping in generating a positive view of the Antilles either.
The military is for the largest part, made up of ethnic Dutch and I don't really think there is much animo from the Homefront to send the boys and girls out to reclaim some "boevennest", as Wilders put it. I predict the sentiment among the general population will be something along the lines of "let them take care of their own buisiness, we weren't needed before, so we are not needed now"
Violet Fashion by Mindy
09-24-2008, 10:16 AM
The US 'd get involved though. Can't remember the name of the declaration/accord, but it basically means the US reserves the right to intervene in the carribean/south america, if things go south.
Monroe Doctrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine
The Monroe Doctrine is a U.S. doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._doctrine) which, on December 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2), 1823 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1823), stated that European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) powers were no longer to colonize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas) or interfere with the affairs of the newly independent states of the Americas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas). The United States planned to stay neutral in wars between European powers and their colonies. However, if later on these types of wars were to occur in the Americas, the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) would view such action as hostile.
Hmm. So the US would side with Chavez. Nice
LEGEND
09-24-2008, 10:17 AM
Last year I was on a diving boat off the coast of St. Thomas, a submarine emerged pretty close to us. I was told by the captain that it is a Dutch navy sub. So Dutch do have assets in the immediate vicinity, the sub probably has enough punch to stop the 4 landing craft of the Venezuelan navy.
brokenclog
09-24-2008, 10:18 AM
The fight will be over swift, and it will be bloody. Venezuela's heart will weep by the sounds of the many clogs marching through Caracas, and its citizens will all perish from forced labour in our cheese factories....(This is obviously a joke. The Dutch military found clogs to be unpractical...)
In all seriousness though, Venezuela is basically surrounded by countries that hate their guts and will attack whenever they get a reason. I don't think Hugo will be that stupid. Then again...He is really not that bright...
RSone
09-24-2008, 10:20 AM
It's a public secret that the Walrus SSK's patrol around the Carribeans. Counter-narcotics operations and no doubt, gathering INTEL on the Venezuelans and the Russians. With an M class, and a Walrus SSK(both can be/are fitted with Harpoon) you can take out the majority of the VZ surface assets if your lucky.
loko01563
09-24-2008, 10:59 AM
Any bombing on a South American nation would draw the US in with the Rio accords...In other words one bird lands in Venezuela USN will have to get involved.
What like they did when Britain tore Argentina a new arsehole?
RSone
09-24-2008, 11:01 AM
Any bombing on a South American nation would draw the US in with the Rio accords...In other words one bird lands in Venezuela USN will have to get involved.
You really think Uncle Sam would rather help Hugo Chavez over one of it's oldest allies?
loko01563
09-24-2008, 11:04 AM
You really think Uncle Sam would rather help Hugo Chavez over one of it's oldest allies?
Thats my point mate, the Rio accords dont mean **** and never have when it comes to friendly and dare i say it white governments. Gringos together and all that.
RSone
09-24-2008, 03:09 PM
What military bases does the the dutch have on the Netherland Antilles and where exactly are they based? Also wondering what they have stationed there in peacetime except that frigate.
BTW, I thought Aruba and Curacao had voted to be more or less independent. What obligations does the Netherlands have to come for their defend? IMO, if you have decided to be sovereign you can´t count on the "mother"nation to run to your defense and kiss your boo-boos away. You can´t have the cookie and eat it at the same time...
Aruba and Curacao are autonomous parts of the Kingdom. It's really hard to explain, but under the current system we are a Federated Democratic Monarchy, with the Netherlands having BY FAR the most say in the "federation"(or commonwealth, if you like that better)
By the Charter for the Kingdom of The Netherlands, the Kingdom(read: The Netherlands proper) is responsible for the defense of it's subordinate territories. In practice, this means that the Netherlands is responsible for the defense of the entire kingdom, as the Antilles do not have any appreciable military apparatus, save for a local militia trained by the RNLMC.
We are legally and traditionally bound to defend the islands, as it was our responsability to defend Surinam and Indonesia and any other colony we have had over the course of history. It would be considered "dishounourable" to just pull out of our obligations with these micro-nations of sorts, seeing as they're not able to stand on their own(which, in this case, is entirely their own fault)
The Surinamese will follow us to the gates of hell if push comes to shove, so we can count on them if we actually go to war. As i see it, the preferable solutuion is a preventive strike, disabeling Venezuelans main mode of delivering a expeditionary force; it's navy. Take out the navy while it is in port/drydock and Chavez loses 90% of his capability to strike at the Antilles. Our Airforce and the Navy's AAW destroyers can take care of the VZ airforce and any paradrop assets.
If need be, this can be combined with a air campaign to take out the rest of Venezuela's military infrastructure,without damgaging the civilians. This will ensure they do not try a second time, and might be effective tool for a change of regime, since it would be humiliating "defeat" for such a machismo focussed culture. We would have to make clear deals with the US and the Colombians about their involvement, as it may or may not be wishfull that they become involved directly.
Ghelp
09-24-2008, 08:51 PM
Any conflict would most likely have Chavez rallying his leftist lackies in the region (Ecuador,Nicaragua,Bolivia,Cuba etc etc) basically most of the region.If you remember when we bombed a FARC camp in Ecuador,Chavez and Ecuador began massing troops on our border threatening us with invasion.Then we had Nicaraguan naval vessels threaten one of our Western islands with Invasion aswell.So things can go from bad to worse very quickly.Luckily it all cooled off thanks to the Dominican president's wonderful political skills.
Ghelp
09-24-2008, 08:55 PM
Thats my point mate, the Rio accords dont mean **** and never have when it comes to friendly and dare i say it white governments. Gringos together and all that.
Colombian President Uribe with American President Bush.I guess we are screwed if Obama wins then huh?
(sarcasm)
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Cr22D6Sl2wN/610x.jpg
Honneur et Patrie
09-25-2008, 04:42 AM
s i see it, the preferable solutuion is a preventive strike, disabeling Venezuelans main mode of delivering a expeditionary force; it's navy. Take out the navy while it is in port/drydock and Chavez loses 90% of his capability to strike at the Antilles. Our Airforce and the Navy's AAW destroyers can take care of the VZ airforce and any paradrop assets.Wow, wow, wow, easy... I don't see any EU or NATO country (even the USA) supporting Netherland in an agressive strike. If Curacao or Aruba is attacked, it's an other thing, I'm sure that France, Great Britain and some other nation will support and take part in any military action to protect the Netherland Antilles. I'm sure Chavez know that!
Then we had Nicaraguan naval vessels threaten one of our Western islands with Invasion aswell.I suppose your navy was not frightened?rofl Nicaraguayan navy hardly count three Dabur-class, two Rodman-101 (for fishing police, without any armement) and less than 60 small boat (Piranha-style outboard) which can only carry a few sailors. Very good to capture drug-runner and illegal fishing vessel, but not suitable to support a serious amphibious operation. Your Navy Infantry is a skilled one, with a lot of combat experience, so I would not be a nicaraguayan sailor if the confrontation happens!
RSone
09-25-2008, 05:14 AM
Wow, wow, wow, easy... I don't see any EU or NATO country (even the USA) supporting Netherland in an agressive strike. If Curacao or Aruba is attacked, it's an other thing, I'm sure that France, Great Britain and some other nation will support and take part in any military action to protect the Netherland Antilles. I'm sure Chavez know that!
I suppose your navy was not frightened?rofl Nicaraguayan navy hardly count three Dabur-class, two Rodman-101 (for fishing police, without any armement) and less than 60 small boat (Piranha-style outboard) which can only carry a few sailors. Very good to capture drug-runner and illegal fishing vessel, but not suitable to support a serious amphibious operation. Your Navy Infantry is a skilled one, with a lot of combat experience, so I would not be a nicaraguayan sailor if the confrontation happens!
I'm not talking about actually striking before anything serious happens, but if the situation deteriorates beyond a point of no return, a preemptive strike would certainly be preferable over a protracted campaign against a entrenched enemy in a densely populated civilian area. The Dutch government would be looking to minimize Antillean casualties as much as possible, so ideally the battle would be fought before VZ forces reach the islands.
I think a crippling strike against the Venezuelans might dissuade any of their leftist friends to go to war with Chavez and against us. Even though our Armed Forces have gotten smaller compared to the Cold War era, they are still very much capable of crashing a party or two. If things go south, South America must know we are willing to defend our interests in the region, however small they might be.
Deurzakker
09-25-2008, 05:39 AM
Invading should be easy for Chavez, if they were to station 30.000 troops on the island and immidiatly start digging in with the aid of Cuban advisors I don't see how the Dutch could do more long term wise than bomb targets on Curacao and implement a sea blockade.
But there is no way the Dutch would block food as they have over 100.000 citizens on the island, so it could take years and there would be no invasion...
RSone
09-25-2008, 05:59 AM
Invading should be easy for Chavez, if they were to station 30.000 troops on the island and immidiatly start digging in with the aid of Cuban advisors I don't see how the Dutch could do more long term wise than bomb targets on Curacao and implement a sea blockade.
But there is no way the Dutch would block food as they have over 100.000 citizens on the island, so it could take years and there would be no invasion...
That's why I said a preemptive strike is the most preferable solution. The only other option that does not cause a sizeable number of civvy casualties when Chavez holds the islands, is to mount a retaliatory strike on Venezuela. Which will be hard to do if Chavez can put his forces smack bang in front of the coast,on the freshly captured Antilles.
The military defense of the Antilles is pretty much based around deterrence. With a M-class or 1-2 OPV's,the marine garrison unit and the Walruses that may or may not be operating in the area,any potential attacker would be faced with heavy casualties. Question is: Will those casualties be heave enough to dissuade the potential agressor from attacking?
jupiter
09-25-2008, 10:24 AM
Venezuelan or Colombian members can tell us how things are in Venezuela. If it's bad internally, then Chavez, as lunatic as allways, may launch an invasion, in the grounds that uncle Sam is preparing some sort of invasion or provocation from that Islands. As ilogical as it sounds, well, everybody knows Chavez.
Eoin666
09-25-2008, 10:44 AM
We are legally and traditionally bound to defend the islands, as it was our responsability to defend Surinam and Indonesia and any other colony we have had over the course of history. It would be considered "dishounourable" to just pull out of our obligations with these micro-nations of sorts, seeing as they're not able to stand on their own(which, in this case, is entirely their own fault)
The Surinamese will follow us to the gates of hell if push comes to shove, so we can count on them if we actually go to war. As i see it, the preferable solutuion is a preventive strike, disabeling Venezuelans main mode of delivering a expeditionary force; it's navy. Take out the navy while it is in port/drydock and Chavez loses 90% of his capability to strike at the Antilles. Our Airforce and the Navy's AAW destroyers can take care of the VZ airforce and any paradrop assets.
One interesting point is "what if" Venezuela annexed western Guyana, which it claims almost as regularly as the Antilles (along with Trinidad!), and during the upheaval Suriname attempts to take eastern Guyana, which it also claims still, irrespective of UN ruling. Would the UK put pressure on the Dutch to put pressure on the Surinamese??
"Guyana was in border disputes with both Suriname, which claimed the land east of the Corentyne River in southeastern Guyana, and Venezuela which claims the land west of the Essequibo River as part of Guayana Esequiba. The dispute with Suriname was arbitrated by the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea and a ruling in favor of Guyana was announced in September, 2007"
RSone
09-25-2008, 11:13 AM
One interesting point is "what if" Venezuela annexed western Guyana, which it claims almost as regularly as the Antilles (along with Trinidad!), and during the upheaval Suriname attempts to take eastern Guyana, which it also claims still, irrespective of UN ruling. Would the UK put pressure on the Dutch to put pressure on the Surinamese??
"Guyana was in border disputes with both Suriname, which claimed the land east of the Corentyne River in southeastern Guyana, and Venezuela which claims the land west of the Essequibo River as part of Guayana Esequiba. The dispute with Suriname was arbitrated by the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea and a ruling in favor of Guyana was announced in September, 2007"
We would indeed pressure the Surinamese, even going as far as directly intervening in a potential conflict between Suriname and it's neighbours. There is a relatively close relationship between the two countries, but not to the degree that we can still tell them what to do. There is no reason for us to support any hostile annexation of Guyanese territory.
Ghelp
09-25-2008, 03:38 PM
I suppose your navy was not frightened?rofl Nicaraguayan navy hardly count three Dabur-class, two Rodman-101 (for fishing police, without any armement) and less than 60 small boat (Piranha-style outboard) which can only carry a few sailors. Very good to capture drug-runner and illegal fishing vessel, but not suitable to support a serious amphibious operation. Your Navy Infantry is a skilled one, with a lot of combat experience, so I would not be a nicaraguayan sailor if the confrontation happens!
I know they would not match us in a face to face.But remember we had Venezuela massing on our east and Ecuador on our Western fronts with Nicaraguans threatening our Islands some hundred miles away.
We only have a small unit on the Island with an air base.They would be able to hold out though since the Nicaraguans are not a threat to us in any way.
alexz
09-25-2008, 04:05 PM
if I were Chavez I'd wait untill the upcoming ultra left government has sold what's left of our military and it's smooth sailing from there :D
I find it unlikely that he'd try anything but I'm disapointed in our defenceminister that he does not use this as a tool to get some more funding for the military.
I say bring'em on, I've never been to the Antilles and I really want to go :D
Is that St. Maartin the French/Dutch island?
Been there twice and can't wait to go there again :)
I suppose your navy was not frightened?rofl Nicaraguayan navy hardly count three Dabur-class, two Rodman-101 (for fishing police, without any armement) and less than 60 small boat (Piranha-style outboard) which can only carry a few sailors. Very good to capture drug-runner and illegal fishing vessel, but not suitable to support a serious amphibious operation. Your Navy Infantry is a skilled one, with a lot of combat experience, so I would not be a nicaraguayan sailor if the confrontation happens!
warfare is not a game you can solve by matching numbers on paper, being frightened or not by your enemy has nothing to do with it
you need to be prepared for the worst possible/plausible case scenario
pacifist
09-25-2008, 04:21 PM
My money is on Holland winning.
Chavez is a moron.
The Ambassador
09-27-2008, 09:56 AM
Relax. I live in Venezuela, the military here is poorly trained and unmotivated. The officer corps has been politicized with promotions based on revolutionary fervor, not professional ability.
The Netherlands' ABC islands are a convenient whipping boy for when the general population is bored with Chavez bashing Colombia, Spain or the evil American Empire.
Of the six Lupo class frigates only two are operational. None of the submarines are sea worthy. Just as the Argentine junta needed to distract its population in 1982 by invading the Falklands Chavez could, in theory, invade the ABCs.
The most sensible way would be simultanious airdrops of units of the parachute regiment in Maracay using the national airline 737's as drop ships and then reinforce by sea.
The dutch would them mobilize every fire brigade in the low country issue them cricket bats and chase the Venezuelan invaders in to the sea.
Lord Helmet
09-27-2008, 10:54 AM
Why would they use 737s if they already have C-130s?... the 42nd Paratrooper Brigade uses those for all their jumps.
RSone
09-27-2008, 10:54 AM
Ofcourse we'd beat Chavez' army. The question is, are "we" (the general population) willing to send out GI joe and jane for a bunch of islands that have brought us more crap than good? The government would react, but would it be a popular effort? I'm not so sure.
And we don't play cricekt. Sjoelen FTW!!!
I've been told the islands are not suited for largescale paraops
something about the wind and the terrain making it more likely to drop into the sea then anywhere else
alexz
09-27-2008, 12:12 PM
I don't see the dutch coming close to winning that war. However, did someone say
article 6? Chavez is am idiot but not stupid enough to get NATO on his ars,
but then again.....
Ghelp
09-27-2008, 02:56 PM
I don't see the dutch coming close to winning that war. However, did someone say
article 6? Chavez is am idiot but not stupid enough to get NATO on his ars,
but then again.....
I don't believe NATO covers those islands.
Martel
09-27-2008, 03:37 PM
Chavez wants the Netherlands Antilles
And I want a Ferrari, but who cares ?
RSone
09-28-2008, 05:09 AM
I don't see the dutch coming close to winning that war. However, did someone say
article 6? Chavez is am idiot but not stupid enough to get NATO on his ars,
but then again.....
Based on a naval engagement alone, we'd defeat the VZ navy so fast it wouldn't be funny. Chavez just has a lot of people(and lately a bit of money) to throw around, we have quality and experience.
If he defeats the garrison forces(which remains to be seen, you never know how the venezuelan people are going to react when their sons and daughters start taking casualties) and digs in properly before we can get there, it's another story. It might take a while, but we are very much capable of crashing Chavez' party on our own. Mr. Conscription might pay us a visit, after his long absence.
alexz
09-28-2008, 11:25 AM
The geographical proximity goves VZ the edge in my opinion.
Of course the dutch navy is more advances and better trained but what aerial support will they have? VZ can lay mines, at sea and on the beach to halt advancment and supplies and I don't see the dutch public supporting the war as soon as the first casulties
return home in caskets.
Does the dutch Antiles fall under article 6 below?
Article 6 (1)
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
The geographical proximity goves VZ the edge in my opinion.
Of course the dutch navy is more advances and better trained but what aerial support will they have? VZ can lay mines, at sea and on the beach to halt advancment and supplies and
I'd assume there'd be airsupport flying out of st Maarten ... would take some effort to make the airfield suitable for use by F16's and KDC10's but it shouldn't pose to much problems ... biggest problem is the range they'd have to overcome
proximity is also a deterrant, any counterattack could just as easily hit the Venezuelan mainland, think airraids and such
I think we should simply outlast the Venezuelans, just lobby hard for sanctions and just do some small scale pinpoint attacks (both against the islands and against Venezuela proper) to keep them on their toes ... and hopefully increasingly unhappy
in the meantime we start outfitting a fleet strong enough to sweep them off the islands and maybe take some Venezuelan land (prefferably with oil :D) for a while ... whatever we do it needs to hurt bad!
because simply kicking them off is not enough we need to make them not want to try that again in the future
I don't see the dutch public supporting the war as soon as the first casulties
return home in caskets.
this is based on?
Does the dutch Antiles fall under article 6 below?
Article 6 (1)
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
no
Ghelp
09-28-2008, 12:30 PM
I don't see the Dutch taking any Venezuelan land.But Alexz does provde a good point.Also in the air the Venezuelans have F-16's along with Su-30's and a SAM system being built.It would not be the easiest thing to hit the Venezuelan main land that is if the Venezuelan Su-30 Flankers do nto intercept the obvious path of the Dutch Air Force.
that's where the best airdefence frigates in the world come in ;)
Ghelp
09-28-2008, 01:11 PM
It would be difficult giving Venezuela's spree of weapon purchases. But obviously I would support the Dutch.Just hate to see any dead in war.
I'd hate to see this particular war alltogether but if it has to happen I'd be somewhat (not entirely) confident we could pull it off
RSone
09-28-2008, 03:10 PM
The geographical proximity goves VZ the edge in my opinion.
Of course the dutch navy is more advances and better trained but what aerial support will they have? VZ can lay mines, at sea and on the beach to halt advancment and supplies and I don't see the dutch public supporting the war as soon as the first casulties
return home in caskets.
History has proven the Dutch public is quite happy to accept war if territorial integrity of our country is at stake. It's not that much of a stretch to include the Antilles in this notion. Every man women and child in this country is aware that those islands are "ours" for better or for worse.
We have had casualties on a unfortunately regular base now in Afghanistan and there has not been a public outcry about the operation. It's not a very popular mission, but people have not exactly been rioting in the streets about the deployment.
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