SS Handschar

[DeathForSale]

After reading a certain post from a member of this board in the Waffen SS pictures thread, defending the role of the SS Handschar I feel compelled to give a little "colorfull" background info on this SS unit.

Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organises recruitment to Bosnia's SS division
During the Second World War in Yugoslavia, as with the Catholic Church in Croatia, many Muslim clerics in Bosnia and Kosovo were willing accomplices in the genocide of the nations Serbian, Jewish and Roma population. From 1941 until 1945, the Nazi-installed regime of Ante Pavelic in Croatia carried out some of the most horrific crimes of the Holocaust (known as the Porajmos by the Roma), killing over 800,000 Yugoslav citizens - 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Roma. In these crimes, they were helped by Muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia and Kosovo who were openly supported by the Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini. A notorious anti-Semite, he openly encouraged Muslims to join Nazi units that would be later implicated in genocide and crimes against humanity - the infamous Hanjar (or Handschar) 13th Waffen SS division. One of these crimes was the The Massacre at Koritska Jama Gorge, in Bosnia during 1941. The Nazi's also established a puppet state in Serbia under General Milan Nedic, who along with the Cetniks also particapated in the Holocaust in wartime Croatia (which included Bosnia) and Serbia.

What united al-Husseini and the Third Reich was a common hatred of the Jewish people. The Nazis had taken al-Husseini under their protection following the wartime invasion of Iraq. He was to spend most of the war living in a luxurious suite at the Hotel Adlon in Berlin. Hitler had enjoyed quite a following among the nationalist youth of Egypt during the war, after Nassiri Nasser, the brother of the future president of Egypt, had published an Arab edition of Mein Kampf in 1939, describing its author as the "strongest man of Europe". Not surprisingly, Egypt became like Argentina after the war - a safe haven for SS war criminals who fled there after the war. Many were keen to help President Nasser in his attempts to destroy the State of Israel. There is evidence that the shadowy ODESSA network helped many of them to Egypt. Apart from Syria - who still host the wanted SS war criminal Alois Brunner, it was in Egypt that the Post-war Arab links to the ODESSA network were strongest.

Many of the victims of the Holocaust/Porajmos were murdered in the Second World War's third largest death camp - Jasenovac, where over 200,000 people - mainly Orthodox Serbs met their deaths. Some 240,000 were "rebaptized" into the Catholic faith by fundamentalist Clerics in "the Catholic Kingdom of Croatia" as part of the policy to "kill a third, deport a third, convert a third" of Yugoslavia's Serbs, Jews and Roma in wartime Bosnia and Croatia (The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Vladimar Dedijer, Anriman-Verlag, Freiburg, Germany, 1988).

The most senior Muslim cleric to be involved in the Holocaust/Porajmos was Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (Edition 1990, Volume 2, Pages 706 and 707), made a substantial contribution to the Axis war effort by organizing "in record time" recruitment to Muslim SS units in Croatia that would be involved in some of the worse atrocities of the Second World War.

Altogether, it is estimated that some 20,000 Muslims fought in the Hanjar (Sword) SS Division, which fought against Yugoslav partisans led by General Tito, and carried out police and security details in fascist Hungary. The Nazi's recruited two SS divisions from Yugoslavia's Muslim population: the infamous Bosnian 13th Waffen Hanjar (or Handschar) SS division, and the Albanian Skanderbeg 21st Waffen SS division. SS conscription in Yugoslavia during the war produced 42,000 Waffen SS and police troops

The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust states:

They participated in the massacre of civilians in Bosnia and volunteered to join in the hunt for Jews in Croatia . . . The Germans made a point of publicizing the fact that Husseini had flown from Berlin to Sarajevo for the sole purpose of giving his blessing to the Muslim army and inspecting its arms and training exercises.

[DeathForSale]

The SS Handschar division like the SS Skanderbeg Division participated in many war crimes in Yugoslavia in the second world war. Along with with the Ustashe, the SS Handschar divsion took part in the massacre in the Koritska Jama Gorge in Herzegovina during May/June 1941. Such war crimes were not isolated in wartime Yugoslavia, and the pro-Vatican Ustashe regime were not the only ones carrying them out: General Milan Nedic, who had been a Minister of War in the pre-war Royalist government of Yugoslavia, led the pro-Nazi quilsing state of Serbia during the war. Like in wartime Croatia, Nedic presided over a regime that particpated in the ruthless exterminated Serbia's minority Jewish and Roma populations.

The purpose of this article is to document the war crimes of the Bosnian Muslim SS Handschar division. The events at the Koritska Gorge are one of sveral alleged to have been carried out by this unit. A merchant Milija Bjelica escaped alive from Koritska Gorge. The following is his account of the massacre (From Dedijer, p155-164). I have footnote before you read this account: A reader of Flame in Bosnia has kindly supplied me with information which calls into question the accuracy of some of the detail in this article. He told me that there were no families called Glavinic was living in Kljuc, and that he has visited that village "a million times" and there are families such as Mehic, Custovic, Skaljic, etc but not Glavinic. Why is this important ? Because Dedijer claims that the order to carry out this massacre was signed by a member of the SS Handschar division called Muharem Glavinic, the Hodza "from the neighboring village of Kljuc".

Anyway, here is Dedijer's account of the Massacre at Koritska Gorge.

At the end of May 1941, a truck carrying 30 to 40 armed people stopped one day in front of the elementary school in the village of Korita. One could see right away that this was no regular unit of the army of the newly founded NDH, about which there were terrible reports in the air. They wore very colorful paramilitary suits, but wore a Fez as a symbol of the membership in Islam. Soon we were sure that these were mainly our neighbours - Muslim's from Kula Fazlagic, Gracanica, and Gacko, who called themselves gendarmes.
At first they chased the children out of the school so they could have the place for themselves; then some of them went to the house of my father, Mihajlo Bjelica; back then we had a shop and a cafe on the street that led from Bileca to Gacko. I worked in the shop, my brother Adam (Golub) worked in the cafe.

The unwelcome guests entered the two shops in a gruff manner and posted on the door an order that we were not to sell alcoholic drinks to anyone but them and threatened that any contrary behavior would be punished on the spot with death. The order was signed by their commander Muharem Glavinic (so they called him), the Hodza from the neighboring village Kljuc.

The next two or three days were spent in anxious expectation. We lived the first of June of this terrible year of war in uncertainty. It was Sunday, a beautiful sunny spring day, which I will never forget. On this day, the Ustasha horde of the Hodza Muharem Glavinic arrested two young men, Boro and Andrija Svorcan above the village Korita in Pitoma Gradina near the border of Montenegro. They bound them with their hands at their backs and drove them to Gacko as they mercilessly hit them with their fists and the rifle butts and kicked them with their feet. On the morning of the 2nd of June, on the next day, the Ustashe got some back-up from Gacko with the Gauleiter Kreso Herman Tonagal at their head. In addition to the above mentioned young men that they had driven to Gacko on the previous day, they were carrying more people arrested along the way. Shortly thereafter Ustasha patrols appeared throughout the whole village and demanded that all men between 16 and 60 come to the Sokolski Dom [=community house, translator's note] to a meeting at which the chief of the Ustasha government in Zagreb would explain who would be permitted to cross the border into Montenegro and whose permission would have to be obtained, and would tell them other regulations of the new government. They especially emphasized that hidden weapons and military equipment had to be brought along and threatened with death anyone who declined to do so. Since our pasture lands and tillable land lay scattered between the estates of the neighboring Montenegro villages, the people thought this assembly to be reasonable and normal for the given circumstances and obeyed without argument. Anyone who grumbled and hesitated got yelled at in a stern voice by the Ustasha patrols: "What are you waiting for? You heard the order!" and were forcefully brought to the Sokolski Dom.

Around 4:00 p.m. on this fateful day, a larger group of Ustashe came into our cafe with Kreso Herman Tonogal heading them. My brother Golub and I served them drinks, of course without getting paid. As soon as they had warmed themselves a bit, the Gauleiter Tonogal called: "Enough! Take them away!" Some of the Ustashe pointed their guns at us and shouted: "Hands up!" After a thorough search, they asked us where the money, our storage area, and the keys for the shop and the cash register were. We showed them everything without argument and asked the Gauleiter for permission to say goodbye to our father, who was lying upstairs on his sick bed. We hoped that they would allow this and planned to escape. But as he must have read our thoughts, the Ustasha shouted gruffly: "No way!" With great effort, I suppressed my anger, turned calmly to him, and said:

"Sir, it is sad that they are arresting us with no reason whatsoever. We have been earning our living here honestly and with great effort. Everyone who has been in here we have treated fairly and hospitably with no concern for their religion; for the duration of the former state, neither I, my father, nor my brother have ever hurt a fly, not to mention committing any harm to a human being. Your armed people know that, too; just ask them."
"I know who you are and how you are, but I can't help you; I can't help the fact that you are Serbs, that you belong to the people among whom the new laws of the state make no distinction. You are all guilty for what happened during the time of the former Yugoslavia, and you will pay for it, everyone of you, down to the last." This was his answer, and then he called: "Forward!"

At this command, the henchmen shoved us crudely with their rifle butts and drove us into the great hall of the Sokolski Dom, which was stuffed with arrested people, our neighbors. At the doors, two guards were posted and at the window a machine gun. One Ustasha came in with us and informed the arrested people that the meeting would be held only when everyone was there, right down to the last man, and when the head of the Ustasha government was there from Gacko.

We sat in the humid and clammy room on the bare floor. In the worried faces of the people, one could see a terrible fear, like people who are condemned to death. All night long we did not sleep and spoke in whispers about what would happen to us. Most of them found consolation in the hope that they would be hauled off to do compulsory labor or put into some sort of a camp, the way the Austro-Hungarian government did in the First World War. When day came, we asked a guard why the meeting was not being held and when they would release us. He answered that the Gauleiter was not there and that no one would be released without him.

In the course of the 3rd of June, women came with bags and blankets, but they were not allowed to have contact with us; the guards brought the things in and gave them to those for whom they were meant. I will never forget the moment when Gojko Bjelica cut into a piece of smoked lamb and cried: "No one from my family will get out of this alive; I don't have a brother anymore; only one of us will survive - severely wounded." Although I was never superstitious, Gojko's talk this time seemed uncanny.

In fear and confusion, we spent one more sleepless night from the 3rd to the 4th of June. On Wednesday the 4th of June, suddenly the Gauleiter Tonogal came in the morning and informed us in a threatening voice that all those who would surrender their hidden weapons - "We know that you have some," he shouted angrily could go home right away, while those who refused would have to go into forced labor. After he left, I looked through a hole in the side door and saw what was happening outside. I saw how the Ustashe were getting into formation; there were enough there. Their oldest ones stood in front of the ranks; one of them said something. During the whole time of his speech, the others were holding their left hand on their breast. Later I learned that the Moslems, according to their religious customs, did this when they took oaths to kill nonbelievers, since this was an act pleasing to God.

After administering the oath, the Gauleiter with a pistol shot gave the sign to begin the massacre. Here I must mention that there is no truth in the talk that some Ustasha guards gave us a clue in any way as to what awaited us and this allegedly gave us the possibility to escape. Quite the contrary. Their behavior toward us was inhuman - like that of a henchman. It is true that not all of them hit us and tormented us in the same manner (some apparently avoided it), but none of them defended us. Since all leading Ustasha personalities at this time publicly called for the slaughter of the Serbs and for their expulsion from the land, it is hardly believable that those who came to Korito did not know why. It is much more likely that they all had appeared voluntarily for this pogrom, firmly convinced that now the Serbian people in the NDH and of course in Herzegovina would be grubbed out like weeds. That's why they hastened to beat the others out in grabbing their possessions.

When the sign was given to begin the slaughter, some Ustashe pushed their way in to us and commanded: "Sit down!" After each of us sat down right where we were standing, they led one after the other into the cloak room, where five chosen henchmen, probably volunteers, were waiting. One of them (Becir Music) cut a wash line (not wire, as some people maintain) into pieces and gave these to Alid Krvavac from Gacko, who with two helpers whose names I do not know, bound the victims' hands behind their backs; at first singly and then in threes - back to back. With a pistol in his hand and in a new airforce uniform, Serif Zvizdic from Gacko observed their work.

When it was my turn, my brother Golub was already bound. Once they had searched me thoroughly, they tied my hands behind my back and then they tied me and Golub together back to back. Then they brought Gavrilo Glusac in, searched and bound him the same way as me and finally tied him sideways to us. Since we were standing with our backs to each other, we could not move, so they simply pushed us into the adjoining room, or better said, the torture chamber, which was already full of bound people. There they beat us and abused us terribly and searched us for weapons, equipment, money, and gold jewelry. While doing it, they constantly emphasized that those who confess and would do what was demanded of them would be released immediately. Only Vidak Glusac fell for this trap. He yielded after gruesome torture and confessed that he had a gun.

They immediately untied him, acted as if they would let him go to fetch the gun and said: "Go and get the gun. Don't worry. We will bring you home right away, while all the others will go into forced labor."

Vidak Nosovic, who was crying like a child, turned to a young and beautifully dressed Ustasha and asked him to loosen the bonds of his hands just a little which were pulled so damned tight that the rope around his swollen hands couldn't be seen anymore. But the Ustasha replied cold bloodily: "You deserve that. I don't feel sorry for you." Then he turned to me and said "I feel sorry only for these two brothers, because they will die innocent." He lit a cigarette and put it in my mouth. Vidak begged him in the name of Allah and in the faith of the prophet to give him a cigarette, too, but the Ustasha didn't listen to him, just as if this was some wild animal in front of him instead of a human being. When he had left our presence. I spit the burning cigarette over to Vidak, who somehow picked it up from the floor with his bleeding mouth.

Filip Svorcan, when they were tying him up, asked the Hodza Muharem Glavinic to look through his papers carefully. He would be able to see quite clearly that he (Film) served 15 years with honors as the commander of the police station, which could easily be proven. The Hodza grabbed his pistol and screamed in rage: "*censored**censored**censored**censored* your 101 Serbian crosses. Just wait an hour, and l will read you the whole book of Serbian regulations." (This was told to me later by Jakov Milovic, who was in the same group with Filip and who managed to flee from the outer edge of the Koritska Jama.)

During that whole fateful June night, the quietness of the spring was again and again shredded by the tormented human screams coming from the Sokolski Dom mingled with the roar of Mumo Hasanbegovic's truck from Avtovac, with which the henchmen took groups of 25 to 30 people one after the other up to the Kobilja-Kopf as far as the gorge Golubnjaca, where they killed them (at first mostly with blunt instruments) and threw them into the abyss.

When it was the turn of me, my brother Golub, and my godfather Gavrilo Nosovic (I think we were in the fourth group), the Ustasha pushed us in over boards into the truck, which had driven up to the door. After us they pushed in eight or nine more groups of three and then closed the tailgate of the vehicle. There were only three Ustashe on the truck: one in the cab with a machine gun directed at us, the second in the right-hand corner and the third in the left corner, both with cocked guns. The cab door was hardly closed when the truck took off. It crept slowly past our shop, on which the moon was shining. The first thing I noticed was the torn-down monument of the volunteers of Solan from the village of Korita, which was close by; then the icon of St. Nikola (on the day of St. Nikola, we had had our christening celebration), which was hung on the shop where formerly the business stood. I became afraid that they had also hauled my family off someplace and perhaps had killed them. Since we were moving on the road to Gacko, there was still a slight hope that they were taking us to a hearing there.

But when the truck stopped just before the gorge Golubnjaca on the Kobilja-Kopf surrounded by Ustasha who were armed to the teeth, it was quite clear to us that this was to be an execution site, where these henchmen would slaughter us like cows or club us like rabbits. The helpless people suddenly became restless; desperate cries and tumult arose: some cried like children when they thought of their poor children, wives, and parents; others gnashed their teeth in helpless despair, while others spit in the faces of their henchmen and cried out defiantly: "You crooks will answer dearly to God and to humanity with blood for your outrageous deeds!" Fired with rage, the Ustashe hit us with their fists, feet, rifle butts, the blunt edge of axes, and other objects to try to subdue the wailing and to be able to carry out their slaughter in peace.

[DeathForSale]

The bright moonlight lying on the rocky peaks of the Bjelasnica and Troglav mountains sank into darkness and was lost in the horror of what was expected. To our misfortune, we three (l, my brother Golub, and my godfather Gavrilo) were sitting close to the cab of the truck, since we were the first to be thrown into the truck, and now were the last in turn for the slaughter. So we had to watch the tormented deaths of 27 neighbors, friends, and godfathers and to be convinced that people are worse than the most bloodthirsty animals. This horrifying sight on the rim of the Koritska Jama brings tears to my eyes yet today, rips me from the deepest sleep, and accompanies me like a shadow throughout my whole life. I can find neither peace nor calm, especially since among the murderers our acquaintances and nearest neighbors were most active: Halid Voloder, the servant Mumo Hasanbegovic from Avtovac, Dervo Custovic, shepherds from the village of Kljuc Hodza Muharem Glavinic from Begovic Kula near Trebinja, Velija Hebib from Kljuc, Sucrija Fazlagic from Kula Fazlagic, Atif Hidovic, Velija Dzunkovic from Hodinic and the son of Sukrija Tanovic, who had come to Gacko from Tuzla, who by slaughtering innocent people could avenge his father, who had been killed by the band of Maja Vujovic after the First World War.

Contrary to the previous groups, they tried to kill us not with wooden hammers (they probably didn't think they could kill so many people this way before dawn), but shot us by using only two bullets for each group of three. The henchmen placed us in threes, tied back to back at the edge of the gorge in such a way that one of us at the tip of the triangle was turned with his face to the gorge, the second to the right, and the third to the left. The shots, which came from close up, were fired into the temples of the two standing at the sides and hit the back of the head of the one facing the gorge. Apparently the henchmen did not check to see whether all three were mortally wounded each time, but instead just immediately threw them into the 20-meter-deep gorge, causing anyone who was not dead to perish there in torment. From some, they had first taken articles of clothing - the pay for their efforts, because the Koran, as they said aloud, didn't permit undressing the dead.

These Ustasha bandits hauled one group of three after the other from the truck to the edge of the gorge, from where ugly curses and blunt blows, together with painful cries of helpless people fell on our ears.

The tormenting wait, which seemed to us to be unending, was finally at an end. The Ustashe dragged us roughly from the truck and pushed us to the entrance of the gorge, all the time hitting us mercilessly. Our attempts to escape the blows or to fend them off really awakened the base instincts of these monsters in human form. Once they had gotten us to the edge of the gorge, they placed me with my face to the abyss, Golub facing the one henchmen, Gavrilo the other. Both henchmen were waiting with guns loaded for the signal to shoot us in the head from close up. I saw sparks at the muzzle of the murder weapons and I heard the shots that threw us to the ground. Although my right shoulder was burning, I was conscious; I noticed that I was not mortally wounded. One bullet had flown past my collar without injuring my neck while the other had penetrated my right shoulder. I heard Golub and Gavrilo die gurgling and tried to think what to do. I felt the murderers loosen the strings on my shoes. I thought that they would perhaps untie my hands to get my coat (I was wearing a long coat and Golub had one of leather), and that that would give me a chance to escape. And indeed they did begin to untie our hands as they were removing my shoes. At this moment, I could hear a commanding voice say: "What are you guys doing there?"

"These are Golub and Milija. We want to get their coats," answered the one who was in the process of untying our hands.

"There's no time for that, and it isn't allowed; stop it and throw the bodies down," said the same man in a stern voice.

But the henchmen did not want to give up their booty. Without thinking of the Koran, they untied our hands and took off our coats. Although my hands were free, I could not move my right arm; it felt like I was still tied. When they picked us up from the ground to toss us into the abyss, I cried out in despair: "Kill me. I am still alive!"

"You won't stay alive. *censored**censored**censored**censored* your Montenegrin mother," hissed the murderer and plunged a bayonet into my breast - fortunately on the right side.

When I regained consciousness, I learned that I was at the bottom of the hollow on a heap of bodies. I was terribly thirsty and slowly got used to the darkness. Somehow I managed to pull my left, uninjured arm out from under my body. With its help, I pulled out my right, completely immobile arm. Carefully I felt around me. Everywhere there were only bodies. There was something sticky on my hand. I began to shiver from the cold. In the heap of bodies, someone was gasping as if he were snoring. The horrifying feeling to be on a heap of dead people forced me to find a safe place, no matter where. I heard something that sounded like water dripping, which instilled even more the feeling of thirst in me. I stared in that direction and felt my way to a little split in the cliff and stuck my head in. In vain I tried to get a few drops of water into my dry mouth. Suddenly I heard the rattling of the motors, then people running back and forth and screams of pain, then the cracking of guns and the dull sound of victims rolling down the cliff. They fell like logs all around me, like the stones that the shepherds of Korita used to throw into the gorge to frighten the pigeons. This process was repeated about ten times in brief spurts; then there was dead silence in the Koritska Jama.

Once the truck had taken off in the direction of Korita, I noticed that someone was scraping along the walls of the cliff. He found my hiding place, laid himself between my legs, and rested his head on me. I felt his head with my good hand and asked: "Who are you?"

He gave a start, quickly composed himself and answered: "it's me!"

By his voice I recognized Vidak Glusac and said: "For God's sake, Vidak. How did you get here? Didn't the Ustashe release you after you confessed to having a gun?"

"Oh no!" cried Vidak. "Those scoundrels broke their promise; after I surrendered the gun, they brought me back again and put me in the truck. Then they drove me to the gorge and threw me in alive."

Three more times the truck came to the gorge from the Sokolski Dom loaded with the other unfortunate ones, and the massacre was continued in the same way. At first we could hear curses mixed with cries of pain, then the crack of guns, dull blows, and finally the bodies rolling down the face of the cliff. The heap of bodies at the bottom of the gorge got higher and higher. From there we could hear the last gasps of the victims who were not yet dead; with our help, a few managed to escape death.

When in the twilight of 5 June the last group had been liquidated, we determined that a total of eight people had survived this fateful night: Milija Bjelica, Radovan Sakota, Dusan and Acim Jaksic, Rade Svorcan, Vidak and Vlado Glusac, and Obren Nosovic. With an insane fear, we were sure that the bodies of our wives, children, and elders were lying there before us. We breathed a sigh of relief and for a moment forgot this darkest human insanity that we had survived under miraculous circumstances, when into the pit fell our bags, the blankets, and other things that our women folk had brought while we were imprisoned in the Sokolski Dom. Also various tools fell down: axes, hammers, adzes, with which the henchmen had killed their victims. Some hand grenades also followed, which fortunately fell into the cliff wall high above us and exploded there. Finally a whole heap of rock debris came tumbling down. We also heard derisive calls like: "Haman, didn't we find you a nice hiding place and covered you with a nice soft blanket."

A while later we heard the bells of a big herd of cows passing the Koritska Jama in the direction of Kula Fazlagic. While the gorge of Golubnjaca was still steaming from the blood of the murder victims, the murderers ran into the village like beasts of prey to plunder the animals and other mobile belongings of their victims, thus leaving the orphaned children, wives, and weak old folk without a drop of milk. Later I read in an Ustasha report that on this occasion 5,294 head of small and large animals were driven from Korita. I maintain that the number was greater by far, for the village of Korita had been famous for its wealth of animals, especially goats and sheep.

We spent all of 5 June in the gorge and didn't try to do anything. Only in the evening twilight, when everything was still, did Dusan Jaksic and Radovan Sakota, who were not seriously wounded, try to get out of the gorge. First Radovan Sakota laid me so that the water would drip on any face from the side; I managed to get individual drops into my mouth. Dusan and Radovan used axes and rope that the Ustashe had thrown into the gorge and they succeeded in climbing out. We waited in fear for what would happen then; we were afraid that Ustasha guards had been placed around the gorge. Only when a belt was thrown down from above (we planned it thus) did we know that everything was OK. This again aroused our hopes for rescue.

But we had to wait for a long time yet in the dark grave of so many people and in the unbearable stench of blood and bodies. Again on 6 June, the Ustashe plundered the village and liquidated the arrested Milosevics from the village of Nemanjica and the Milovics from Zagradac near the school in Korita. Along with the Milosevics and the Milovics, Radovan Sarovic from Stepen was killed on this day, while the mutilated bodies of Dorda Glusac and Branko Kovacevic were found later at the wall of the Trkljina. On the Kubilia headlands, they shot seven of the Milovics, while three men (Radovan, Blagoje, and Lazar) were able to escape; the brothers Milovan and Dusan Milosevic managed to escape from the courtyard of the school at Korita, so that the news of the Ustasha crimes was spread like the wind throughout all of northeast Herzegovina. Armed people from Gornje and Donje Crkvice, Vrbica, Somina, Crni Kuk, and other neighboring villages rushed to the Koritska Jama to rescue the survivors. All the adults of the Kurdulija fraternity joined them, who knew this area well. After they had gotten strong backup from Gacko and Bilece, a group came to the gorge. As long as I live, I will remember the moment when we heard the strong voice of Todor Micunovic from Crkvice: "Oh Milija, try to be patient. Don't worry, we will get you out of here." Soon the brave and bold Petar Kurdulija climbed down on a rope into the gorge. From up above they called to him that he should tie me first, because I was the most seriously wounded; then one after the other, as many as they could; apparently they were afraid that stronger units of the Ustasha or of Italians could come. But I asked Petar to take up the 16-year-old Rado Svorcan first, because his mother had only him, while mine had two children. Only after I heard a determined voice from above: "Don't worry, Milija, you will all get out," did I consent to being the first to be pulled up. Petar wrapped the rope around my belly, tied my broken right arm to my breast, and told me that I had to hold the rope tight with my left hand and kick myself out from the cliff with my legs. That's how I was pulled up from the gorge of Golubnjaca, which since this terrible event has been known as Koritska Jama, the common grave of Svorcan, Bjelica, Glusac, Nosovic, Jaksic, Sakota, Milosevic, Milovic, Kovacevic, and all the others - in all, over 150 victims. While the others were being pulled out, there was a misunderstanding: someone called out that an Italian, motorized column was coming from Bilece. The rescue was thus interrupted; only Obren Nosovic was still in the gorge. But our rescuers waited. When the error was cleared up, Ljubo Kurdulija, later a fearless warrior whose heroic deeds were the talk of all of Herzegovina, climbed down into the gorge and brought Obren up.

After I had been brought up into the daylight, I could hardly believe that I had escaped death, which had been hovering before my eyes for almost five whole days (I was arrested on 2 June). I heard and recognized the voices of my rescuers, among whom was my mother. She asked about Golub, and I only looked at her. Obren Nosovic's son pulled at my sleeve and asked: "Uncle is my father still alive?"

"One Obren Nosovic is alive. But I don't know which one, since both had been thrown into the gorge," I replied with great effort.

They immediately put me onto a horse and we took off. In the saddle, I managed to hold out until we got to Mrda Kurduliga's house, which was not far away. There they had prepared a stretcher, on which they carried me to the house of Vulo Micunovic in Crkvice. Soon the other survivors from the village of Korita came there. The residents of Crkice and the members of other neighboring Montenegrin villages welcomed us as kindly as their grandfathers had done in the past. They shared not only their homes with us, but also the last piece of bread. Armed men went to Gacko immediately, where, as they told us, battles had begun against the Ustasha For that, the surviving inhabitants of the village of Korita will forever be grateful to them.

We who had survived the massacre in the Koritska Jama were examined by Dr. Vojo Dukanovic and Dr. Jovan Bulajic. Vojo gave me a shot for blood poisoning and told Vulo Micunovic, in whose house I was, to get me to the hospital in Niksic as quickly as possible and to have me operated on there, because it was the only way to save any life. That is what happened. Micunovic and the Kraljevics brought me to Miksic on a stretcher with the help of other residents of Crkvice; with us came also the two doctors mentioned above. Thanks to their connections, I was taken into the hospital and operated on immediately. I was in treatment for 48 days.

(Quoted in Dedijer, p155-164)

First-hand testimony of survivors and eyewitnesses is compiled in this shocking and graphic account of the crimes committed during World War II at the largest death camp in Yugoslavia. At the small Croatian town of Jasenovac, the fascist "Independent State of Croatia" (a satellite state of the Nazi Third Reich) constructed a concentration camp where more than 200,000 people, mostly Orthodox Serbs, were systematically murdered. Among the participants in this genocide were members of the Roman Catholic Clergy, from the Franciscan monk who became the camp commandant to the infamous Archbishop Stepinac, the spiritual advisor to the fascist state appointed by Pope Pius XII. Vladimir Dedijer, a close associate of Marshall Tito, has collected irrefutable documentary and photographic evidence, attesting to thousands of atrocities and the complicity of the Catholic Church in these crimes. The events described in this important volume provide a historical context to the current conflict in Yugoslavia and shed light on the motivations behind the apparently senseless ethnic and religious strife which is tearing Yugoslavia apart. The massacre at Jasenovac was the terrible culmination of centuries-old animosities between Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats, and a dark episode in the history of the Church, one that the Church has attempted to hush up for fifty years. The late Vladimir Dedijer held many high state offices in the government of Yugoslavia, including the post of official delegate from Yugoslavia to the United Nations. He was considered a leading authority on genocide in the twentieth century and, together with Jean-Paul Sartre, chaired the Bertrand Russell International Tribune on War Crimes. Dedijer was also a highly-respected scholar of modern history, who taught in universities throughout the world, and the author of many books, among which is his widely acclaimed biography of Tito. ". . . the range of evidence he presents of genocide in Croatia is impressive.. . . a great deal will be found within its pages to stimulate thought and new debateand for some, it will probably prove to be quite uncomfortable."

[TheRussian1]

good stuff man.....
yugoslavians suffered more than anybody, save the poles and soviet peoples during the war...

[DeathForSale]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/Handschar-13th-SS-Division-Emblem.png

[DeathForSale]

My greatgrandfather on my Mothers side of the family was sent to Jasenovac where he died at the hands of the Ustase. His brother was in the Chetnik movement and was killed in Bosnia fighting the Handschar. If there is one thing I despise it's the SS, especially the Handschar.

[Crna Legija]

I'm lay down 2:1 that this thread is locked within 10 minutes.

Any takers? D4S?

[-CROAT-SOLDIER-]

Well it is "Somewhat" interesting information,History is a good thing to remember and not to forgetting the past,But I know his intentions is to start a little something and my level of Idoicy is not as high as his so Im not going to play his little game and get banned for it.

[TheRussian1]

I'm lay down 2:1 that this thread is locked within 10 minutes.

Any takers? D4S?

I take your odds and raise you a pie.

[California Joe]

So far it's just historical, not a flame war. I'm sure Lokos or some of the other WWII historians may want to post about it......

[DeathForSale]

I gave you my reason for opening the thread. I compared to "Crna Legija" am the last one (after my recent "vacation" from the forum) am the last one to try and start something. This thread is not aimed at any specific national group but is an view of an SS unit and it's crimes. If Holocaust related stories are viewed as being provocative then please by all means report me to an moderator.

[ed316]

So far it's just historical, not a flame war.....

But you know better.

[DeathForSale]

So far it's just historical, not a flame war. I'm sure Lokos or some of the other WWII historians may want to post about it......
Thanks Cali for cutting short him short before others got in on it.

[-CROAT-SOLDIER-]

Well I have seen this guy in quite a few flame wars,So if you do not mean to create any flame wars sorry for that comment man.

[DeathForSale]

Well I have seen this guy in quite a few flame wars,So if you do not mean to create any flame wars sorry for that comment man.
Thats true I have been in a few "flame wars" as Lokos said I get a bit "excited" at times. But know that I have a grip of this forum and it's workings and politics I beleive you'll see me as a one of the cooler heads who prevails.

[Ea$y-8]

Thanks, I was always into the classic (first 12) SS divisions. But it is nice to hear about this one.

[-CROAT-SOLDIER-]

Thats true I have been in a few "flame wars" as Lokos said I get a bit "excited" at times. But know that I have a grip of this forum and it's workings and politics I beleive you'll see me as a one of the cooler heads who prevails.
Thats good,I just dont like people that create things like this over the net,Its quite worthless and dumb,I just jumped to a conclusion that you were starting a flame war because of what ws said in another thread.Sorry for jumping at you like that nice talking to you,Im out.

[DeathForSale]

Thats good,I just dont like people that create things like this over the net,Its quite worthless and dumb,I just jumped to a conclusion that you were starting a flame war because of what ws said in another thread.Sorry for jumping at you like that nice talking to you,Im out.
For sure, no problem man.

[DeathForSale]

Thanks, I was always into the classic (first 12) SS divisions. But it is nice to hear about this one.
I'll dig up some more info later. Hopefull Lokos will find this thread. That Serb bro is like an living dictionary for military history.

[Ea$y-8]

I'll dig up some more info later. Hopefull Lokos will find this thread. That Serb bro is like an living dictionary for military history.

So is Kitsune he is smart as hell on it as well. Lokos and him often clash.

[GuiltySpark]

So who are the good guys?
The serbs, Croats or bosnian-muslims?

[Crna Legija]

http://forum.crnalegija.com/

If you guys are that interested in our evil SS/baby killer units, take a look at the url above. Learn to read the language and ask some of the more believable people on what the true story is. However, I doubt anyone on this forum cares as to what really happened and is happier to read the drivel D4S put forth. Simple things amuse simple minds :)

Remember, there are 3 sides to the story. Ours, theirs and the truth. It's a pity that the truth usually takes a backseat to the spindoctors, armchair e-historians and bull*censored**censored**censored**censored* artists that are prevalent on forums.

[Sgt Kanderer]

So who are the good guys?
The serbs, Croats or bosnian-muslims?

They were muslims, they trained in France in 1943 at Villefranche de Rouergue , where some of them revolts or deserts and were executed by other menbers of the division.

At this time the "grand Mufti of Jerusalem" Hadj Amin el Hussein was in Berlin and called for a Djihad against the jews.

At the end of war The remaining troops of the Handschar (13° SS) and the Prinz Eugen (7° SS), and Croats Ustache (50 000 trops) were executed at Maribor. They surrendered to the brits and were braught back to the Yougoslavian resistants & commnunist troops.

[Thor]

I'll dig up some more info later. Hopefull Lokos will find this thread. That Serb bro is like an living dictionary for military history.
Soviet style.. :)

Anyway, interesting read. Cheers

[BHM]

There is book called "Himmler`s Bosnian Division" by Georg Lepre, guy have checked all sourcees from Belgrade`s war museum to German archives.
If you want a truth read his book, privious post are little "colored".

Let me just give you a little example how history is written in former YU.
As you may or may not be aware Bosnia was included in NDH (indipendent State of Croatia) created by nazies, so one can say that 13`th was a croatian division. When someone start talking about crimes commited by 13`th, croatian historians say that wasn`t a Croatian unit. But in France in at Villefranche de Rouergue each year some former maquies celebrate a day when 13`rebbeld against nazies. On that ocassion Croatia sends it`s millitary delegation each year, suddenly when something positiv is said about unit they say it was a croat division and that croats rebbeld against nazies.

What I have written is just to show how history in balkans is potrayed.

As I said read the Book and when you finnish you will be aware why bosniaks joined unit, it has nothing to do with nazism or jews but more with a bunch of "bearded" man called chetniks, there are some very intersting paralels with things from recent Yu war.

Mister DeathForsale wrote following:

"the SS Handschar divsion took part in the massacre in the Koritska Jama Gorge in Herzegovina during May/June 1941."

How is that possible if division is formed in 1943, Time travel maybe? Tjeck your dates you are talking nonsense.



Now I`ll quote something from a book: Page 317:

"The divisions combact record has been much malinged by many post war historians who in reality have prepetraded little if any actual reasrch on the subject."

Now somthing about why bosniaks joined division just to illustrate that bosniaks have not been nazies or fundamentalists sarving for blood as some would like to show, but rather victims of one other as blood thirsty ideology as nazism.

Page 15-16:

"Despite of Pavelic`s assurances of eqality, it wasn`t long before many Bosnian Muslims became dissatisfied with Croatian rule. "not one single Muslim" complained an Islamic leader, "occupied an influental post in the (local) administration. Even worse was the fierce fighthing that broke out between goverment forces and their allies on one side, the Partisans on another, and the Chetniks on the third. A number of Ustasa units belived the Muslims to be communist sympthizers and burned their villages and murderd civilians, while Chetniks accused them of taking part in Croatian Anti_ortodox excsses and preformed simmilar atrocities.
One german source states thatby 1943 (year of forming of division) over 100.000 Muslims had been killed (wich is 9% of total som of Bosnian muslims at the time) and 250.000 were refugees. "the Muslims" remarked one German General , "bear the special status of being persecuted by all others"

From thing above it`s easy to conclude why people joind 13`th, further they have been promised that they will fight in bosnia only.

again on page 317:

"It is obvious that German leadership and the Bosnians held different priorities. "The Bosnian volunteers were promised that they would be engaged only within their own lands".

And a little tabel to show how "mulims" where part of Ustasha regime, serbs like to say that all bosniaks where member of Ustashe truth is that not even 2% was with ustashe

goverment Post

Ministers: Catolics: 18 Muslims:2
State-Secretaries: Catolics: 6 Muslims:0
Peples rpresentativs: Catolics: 193 Muslims:13
Foreign Ministry: Catolics: 49 Muslims:2
finance Ministry (high Officials): Catolics: 159 Muslims:2
Ministry of interior: Catolics: 53 Muslims:0
(these are official recods from 1942)

You can self do a math, but if you listen serbian historians you will gat totaly oposit picture.

This thread is again a shining example how some people want to make recent tragedy in Bosnia "relativ" always mentonig 13`th or mujaheedin. Explaining their "heros" "handwork" as a deffence against nazis of fundamentalists. But i must say they improved themself from obvious naked attacks to cover it "as historical disscusion"

And just like mujahedden never wolud have come to Bosnia if Not for atrrocites commited by Mladic and his "chetniks" of 1992 , same way 13`th would never come to exsistence if not for Mihajlovic and his chetniks of 1942, history indeed is reapating itself.

[Freibier]

good post BHM

[Gorstak]

There is book called "Himmler`s Bosnian Division" by Georg Lepre, guy have checked all sourcees from Belgrade`s war museum to German archives.
If you want a truth read his book, privious post are little "colored".

Let me just give you a little example how history is written in former YU.
As you may or may not be aware Bosnia was included in NDH (indipendent State of Croatia) created by nazies, so one can say that 13`th was a croatian division. When someone start talking about crimes commited by 13`th, croatian historians say that wasn`t a Croatian unit. But in France in at Villefranche de Rouergue each year some former maquies celebrate a day when 13`rebbeld against nazies. On that ocassion Croatia sends it`s millitary delegation each year, suddenly when something positiv is said about unit they say it was a croat division and that croats rebbeld against nazies.

What I have written is just to show how history in balkans is potrayed.

As I said read the Book and when you finnish you will be aware why bosniaks joined unit, it has nothing to do with nazism or jews but more with a bunch of "bearded" man called chetniks, there are some very intersting paralels with things from recent Yu war.

Mister DeathForsale wrote following:

"the SS Handschar divsion took part in the massacre in the Koritska Jama Gorge in Herzegovina during May/June 1941."

How is that possible if division is formed in 1943, Time travel maybe? Tjeck your dates you are talking nonsense.



Now I`ll quote something from a book: Page 317:

"The divisions combact record has been much malinged by many post war historians who in reality have prepetraded little if any actual reasrch on the subject."

Now somthing about why bosniaks joined division just to illustrate that bosniaks have not been nazies or fundamentalists sarving for blood as some would like to show, but rather victims of one other as blood thirsty ideology as nazism.

Page 15-16:

"Despite of Pavelic`s assurances of eqality, it wasn`t long before many Bosnian Muslims became dissatisfied with Croatian rule. "not one single Muslim" complained an Islamic leader, "occupied an influental post in the (local) administration. Even worse was the fierce fighthing that broke out between goverment forces and their allies on one side, the Partisans on another, and the Chetniks on the third. A number of Ustasa units belived the Muslims to be communist sympthizers and burned their villages and murderd civilians, while Chetniks accused them of taking part in Croatian Anti_ortodox excsses and preformed simmilar atrocities.
One german source states thatby 1943 (year of forming of division) over 100.000 Muslims had been killed (wich is 9% of total som of Bosnian muslims at the time) and 250.000 were refugees. "the Muslims" remarked one German General , "bear the special status of being persecuted by all others"

From thing above it`s easy to conclude why people joind 13`th, further they have been promised that they will fight in bosnia only.

again on page 317:

"It is obvious that German leadership and the Bosnians held different priorities. "The Bosnian volunteers were promised that they would be engaged only within their own lands".

And a little tabel to show how "mulims" where part of Ustasha regime, serbs like to say that all bosniaks where member of Ustashe truth is that not even 2% was with ustashe

goverment Post

Ministers: Catolics: 18 Muslims:2
State-Secretaries: Catolics: 6 Muslims:0
Peples rpresentativs: Catolics: 193 Muslims:13
Foreign Ministry: Catolics: 49 Muslims:2
finance Ministry (high Officials): Catolics: 159 Muslims:2
Ministry of interior: Catolics: 53 Muslims:0
(these are official recods from 1942)

You can self do a math, but if you listen serbian historians you will gat totaly oposit picture.

This thread is again a shining example how some people want to make recent tragedy in Bosnia "relativ" always mentonig 13`th or mujaheedin. Explaining their "heros" "handwork" as a deffence against nazis of fundamentalists. But i must say they improved themself from obvious naked attacks to cover it "as historical disscusion"

And just like mujahedden never wolud have come to Bosnia if Not for atrrocites commited by Mladic and his "chetniks" of 1992 , same way 13`th would never come to exsistence if not for Mihajlovic and his chetniks of 1942, history indeed is reapating itself.


The Book is great, some "historians" should read it.

[eucalyptus]

Meh at, amazon.com it costs 39.95$, anyone got any cheaper price?

[DeathForSale]

Guys no matter what you say, there is no justification for creating an whole SS DIVISION. Not just an regular Werhmaht-style formation but an SS DIVISION. And that they needed to defend themselves from "big-bad bearded chetniks" is a very, very weak argument. Please stop polluting this thread with that garbage. Save the holocaust didn't happen stories for somewhere else please. Yeah, defending themselves right. I guess Germans who joined Totenkopf were just also defending themselves from the big-bad jews and other undesirable races. :roll:

[Johnny_H]

Guys no matter what you say, there is no justification for creating an whole SS DIVISION. Not just an regular Werhmaht-style formation but an SS DIVISION. And that they needed to defend themselves from "big-bad bearded chetniks" is a very, very weak argument. Please stop polluting this thread with that garbage. Save the holocaust didn't happen stories for somewhere else please. Yeah, defending themselves right. I guess Germans who joined Totenkopf were just also defending themselves from the big-bad jews and other undesirable races. :roll:

well they didnt argue any National Socialist ideals, here it was purely history.
The Handschar Divisions combat record is sketchy at best from what Ive read which is very little but please "Death for Sale" as you are the one who started this thread arguing its purely historical and to do with this unit DO NOT turn it into "Waffen SS are nazi baby killing monsters or Regular soldiers debate" because we have at least two other threads with that exact issue.

thx
in advance.

[Il-28]

there is no justification for creating an whole SS DIVISION.
:| What a dumb statement...

Really DFS, your state 'Hey if they are SS, they are all butchers and criminals' simply sucks. I'm not justifying crimes which some of SS divisions did, but looking at them through a prism of crimes, is simply dumb. Same thing with Crna Legija/Black Legion thing you explained to Resurrection in other thread. Yes, they also did crimes, but their main task was fighting Chetniks & Partisans in Herzegovina and Central Bosnia, not killing and butchering civilians like you want to show them.

but please "Death for Sale" as you are the one who started this thread arguing its purely historical and to do with this unit DO NOT turn it into "Waffen SS are nazi baby killing monsters or Regular soldiers debate" because we have at least two other threads with that exact issue.
X2

[BHM]

Guys no matter what you say, there is no justification for creating an whole SS DIVISION. Not just an regular Werhmaht-style formation but an SS DIVISION. And that they needed to defend themselves from "big-bad bearded chetniks" is a very, very weak argument. Please stop polluting this thread with that garbage. Save the holocaust didn't happen stories for somewhere else please. Yeah, defending themselves right. I guess Germans who joined Totenkopf were just also defending themselves from the big-bad jews and other undesirable races. :roll:

As I said a 13`th SS division has nothing to do with Jasenovac or Herzegovina it never operated in Herzegovina... They operated in North-easatern Bosnia and partly in Srem.
I do not remember saying anything about holocaust?
But if you insist - Handzar division HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HOLOCAUST.
Divizion was formed in 1943 sent to training up to november 1943 when they returned to Bosnia, until that time almost all Yews where alreday deported to Jasenovac so please will you explain me how is possible that Handzar division can do anything in 1941, 1942 and first half of 1943 if unit DID NOT EXIST at time, please explain, please, your post is again a shining example how "history" is written in Balkans.

Crime you have describet was commited by ustasha forces and for your information FAZLAGICA KULA is only place in Herzegovina where muslims in mayoriti joined Ustase .
I`ll give you my home town Mostar as example out of about 800 muslim families (by aftername) only two joind ustase (one is SADZAK, another is KULAGLIC and again not whole family joined but rather some members of family , here I think of men of course) so again you can do a math out of 18.000 people in Mostar at a time 11.000 where Bosnian muslims. Every fifth man from Mostar joind partizans, Mostar`s own partizan battalion numberd 1800 fighters (note that it`s not only unit where peple of Mostar served there is also eastern Herzegovina partizan brigade wich many people from Mostar joind), more than 60% where muslims some of them where named "national heros": Safet Mujic, Brothers Fejic, Hasan Rizikalo, Avdo HUMO (wich survived war, intersting thing is that his brother`s son was commander of 41`st Mostar brigade of Bosnian army in recent war), Adem Buc, Brothers Lakisici, Hasan Zahirovic Laca.... and many others all data you can find in a book "Mostar Battalion 1941-1945", my own grandfather was a member, thanks to that two of his brothers ended in Jasenovac he has never ever seen them. And then some "historian" tryes to show me how my ancesstors where nazies or ustasha.

[DeathForSale]

Some of you seem insulted by my hostility towards the SS units. SS units were formed as elite fighting formations because of their extreme loyalty to Hitler and following of Nazi ideals. This is a fact. Although Handschar may not have been formed to solely kill Serbs, Jews, Gypsies etc. They sure were adept at it and had no problem doing it.

[DeathForSale]

well they didnt argue any National Socialist ideals, here it was purely history.
The Handschar Divisions combat record is sketchy at best from what Ive read which is very little but please "Death for Sale" as you are the one who started this thread arguing its purely historical and to do with this unit DO NOT turn it into "Waffen SS are nazi baby killing monsters or Regular soldiers debate" because we have at least two other threads with that exact issue.

thx
in advance.
No the other thread is dedicated to pictures of the SS. Waffen SS are killers and fanatical soldiers at the same time. I opened this thread in response to what one person said in the pictures thread about the Handschar, that they were formed to counter "Serbian murdering Chetniks." I opened this thread to show the crimes they commited, and to show what they were "best at." All of these things are historical facts. If you don't like to admit the SS commited attrocities then why don't you join stormfront or something which would be suited to you're tastes.

Regards,
DFS

[DeathForSale]

In the fall of 1942, SS Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler and SS-General Gottlob Berger approached Hitler with the proposal to raise a Bosnian Moslem SS division. Himmler thought that Moslem men would make perfect SS soldiers, as Islam "promises them Heaven if they fight and are killed in action." According to Chris Bishop, "Himmler convinced himself that Balkan Muslims were neither Slavs nor Turks, but were really Aryans who had adopted Islam." (Source: "SS: Hell on the Western Front. The Waffen SS in Europe 1940-1945", 2003. p.70). He believed the Muslims of Bosnia to be the same, racially, as the Croatians, and saw the Croatians as descended of Gothic and Persian stock.

Hitler formally approved the project on 10 February 1943. Artur Phleps was charged with raising the division. The Croat fascist Ustashe objected to the recruitment of an exclusively Muslim formation. They were worried about possible independence and considered the Muslim areas a part of their "Independent State of Croatia". As a compromise the division was called "Croatian" and included at least 10% Catholic Croats.

Amin al-Husseini was involved in the recruitment effort.

The uniform worn by the division was regular SS issue, with a divisional collar patch showing an arm holding a Scimitar, over a Swastika. On the left arm was a Croatian armshield (red-white chessboard). Headgear was the fez, in field grey (normal service) or red ("walking out"), with the Reich's eagle and the SS skull emblazoned. Non-Muslim members could opt to wear the regular SS mountain cap. The oval mountain troop Edelweiss patch was worn on the right arm.

The division had a Muslim Imam for each battalion and a Mullah for each regiment. It was the largest of the Muslim oriented divisions (21,065 men). It conducted operations against Communist partisans in the Balkans from February 1944.


Bosnian Muslim (Bosniak) and Croat soldiersThe Handschar division was mainly commanded by German officers. In late 1943, it was sent to train at Villefranche-de-Rouergue, in Aveyron, France. On September 17-18, 1943, a number of soldiers staged a mutiny, killed eight German officers, but were soon subdued by the Germans. The Germans blamed it on three suspected Communists who had infiltrated the division and downplayed the whole affair, stating that only some 14 soldiers participated in it. The captured mutineers were executed.

Nevertheless, the 13th was the only SS division that ever had a mutiny, and this was the first armed revolt against the Germans within the main Nazi system. A few of the mutineers escaped and helped form the French resistance in the area. The remainder of the division was soon relocated to Germany where they completed their training and in February 1944 shipped back to Bosnia.

[DeathForSale]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ea/Hanjar_div_Himmler_Sauberzw.jpg/695px-Hanjar_div_Himmler_Sauberzw.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Han-arm.jpg

Lineage
Kroatische SS-Freiwilligen-Division (Mar 1943 - July 1943)
Kroatische SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division (July 1943 - Oct 1943)
SS-Freiwilligen-Bosnien-Herzegowina-Gebirgs-Division (Kroatien) (Oct 1943)
13. SS-Freiwilligen-Bosnien-Herzegowina-Gebirgs-Division (Kroatien) (Oct 1943 - May 1944)
13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar (kroatische Nr. 1) (May 1944 - May 1945)

Commanders
SS-Oberführer Herbert von Obwurzer (1 Apr 1943 - 9 Aug 1943)
SS-Gruppenführer Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig (9 Aug 1943 - ? June 1944)
SS-Brigadeführer Desiderius Hampel (? June 1944 - 8 May 1945)

Chief of Staff
SS-Sturmbannführer Erich Braun (1 Mar 1943 - 1 July 1944)
SS-Sturmbannführer Einer (? July 1944 - ? July 1944)
SS-Sturmbannführer Johann Boy Petersen (? July 1944 - ? July 1944)
SS-Hauptsturmführer Otto Reuter (1 Aug 1944 - ? 1945)
SS-Sturmbannführer Siegfried Bernhard Sander (1 Mar 1945 - ? Mar 1945)
SS-Sturmbannführer Hamm (? Mar 1945 - ? Mar 1945)
SS-Sturmbannführer Siegfried Bernhard Sander (24 Mar 1945 - ? 1945)

Quartermaster
SS-Sturmbannführer Desiderius Hampel (3 Oct 1943 - 22 Oct 1943)
SS-Sturmbannführer Johann Petersen (? Apr 1944 - 2 July 1944)
SS-Hauptsturmführer Otto Reuter (2 July 1944 - 1 Aug 1944)
SS-Sturmbannführer Johann Petersen (1 Aug 1944 - 1 Mar 1945)

Area of operations
Yugoslavia (Mar 1943 - July 1943)
France (July 1943 - Jan 1944)
Germany (Jan 1944 - Mar 1944)
Yugoslavia (Mar 1944 - Sep 1944)
Hungary (Jan 1945 - Apr 1945)
Austria (Apr 1945 - May 1945)

Manpower strength
Dec 1943 21.065
June 1944 19.136
Dec 1944 12.793


Knight's Crosses awarded

4



Holders of high awards

Holders of the Knight's Cross

Holders of the German Cross



Order of battle

SS-Waffen Gebirgsjäger Regiment 27

SS-Waffen Gebirgsjäger Regiment 28

SS-Waffen Artillerie Regiment 13

SS-Panzerjäger Abteilung 13

SS-Aufklärungs Abteilung (mot) 13

Waffen-Gebirgs Pioneer Abteilung der SS 13

Waffen-Gebirgs Nachrichten Abteilung der SS 13

Waffen-Flak Abteilung der SS 13

SS-Nachrichten-Abteilung 13

Kroatische SS-Radfahr-Battalion

Kroatische SS-Kradschützen-Battalion

SS-Divisionsnachschubtruppen 13

Versorgungs-Regiment Stab 13

SS-Verwaltungs-Battalion 13

SS-Sanitäts-Abteilung 13

SS-Krankenkraftwagenzug

SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Veterinär-Kompanie 13

SS-Feldpostamt 13

SS-Kriegsberichter-Zug 13

SS-Feldgendarmerie-Trupp 13

SS-Feldersatz-Battalion 13

SS-Kraftfahr-Lehr-Abteilung 13

[DeathForSale]

http://13sshandzar.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/atrocity1.jpg
Murdering Serbs

http://13sshandzar.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/aganovic-pavelic.jpg
Moslem leader Hadzi Aliefendi Aganovic promised his people loyalty to the Poglavnik and the NDH.

http://13sshandzar.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/gorazdemilitia.jpg.w300h379.jpg
Muslims militia's from Gorazde


http://13sshandzar.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ustasaimam.jpg
An Muslim imam administering the oath for his men

http://13sshandzar.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fuehrer-mufti.jpg.w300h184.jpg
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem tried to persuaded Hitler to help his Bosnian brothers

[DeathForSale]

Bosnian Muslims and the NDH (Independant State Of Croatia)




Nazi Germany attacked Yugoslavia in April 1941 as a move to protected her southern flank from British after an anti-Nazi coup in Belgrade. The Balkan country surrendered in a few days after the attack because its backwardness and its intern weakness.



German troops in Sarajevo city hall on April 16, 1941.

After that successful blitzkrieg, Hitler and his Axis partners - Italians, Bulgarians, and Hungarians - sliced that poor country for themselves. At Hitler's order, the provinces of Yugoslavia of Croatia, Bosnia, Herzegovina and parts of Serbia were created as a pro-Nazi satellite state, Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska (NDH, the Independent State of Croatia). To rule this state, the Nazis appointed a local sadist fascist leader. His name was Ante Pavelic, the leader of a pro-Catholic terrorist organization, the Ustasa (the Insurgents).

In fact, although have a name Croatia, this satellite country was a pluralistic country. The dominant ethnic groups in this country were the Catholic Croats, the Orthodox Serbs, and the Moslem - the descendants of the Slavs who became Moslem during Turkish rule. Then, the centuries hostilities between the groups exploded and became a massacre. In barbaric fashion, the Ustasa storm troopers massacred the Serbs people and the other minorities group. Between 1941-1945, the Ustasa were supposed have been killed 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Gypsy.

How about the Bosnian Moslems?

During the Ustasa's frenzy killings, the Bosnian Moslem have not been their target. In fact, the Ustasa tried to get their support against the Serbs in numbers in NDH. As Pavelic's Culture and Education Minister, Mile Budak, said in July 6, 1941, the Ustasa considered the Bosnian Moslem as an integral part of the NDH:

"The Croatian State is Christian. It is also a Moslem State where our people are of the Mohammedan religion."

So, the Ustasa considered the Bosnian Moslems as the Croats who embraced Islam religion. Pavelic even ordered the construction of a mosque (called the Poglavniks Mosque after his official title) in his efforts to secure the loyalty of the Bosnian Moslems.

Many, but certainly by no means all, of Bosnian Moslems responded to the fascist Croat authorities, as they had responded to all outside occupiers since 1878, with cautious cooperation or at least passivity. Some of the Moslem population actively supported the Ustasa regime.




Moslem leader Hadzi Aliefendi Aganovic promised his people loyalty to the Poglavnik and the NDH.

On August 1941, a Moslem delegation went to the Poglavnik Ante Pavelic in order to make a statement of loyalty to the new state. The man behind the scene was Reis-al-Ulema Fahim Efendi Spaho (later in 1942 he was disappeared) who favor to made Bosnian Moslems as Croats-Nazi allied. The Ustasa themselves eager to integrating the Moslems into Croatian community. According to a famous expression of Pavelic, the Bosnian Moslems would have constituted "the flower of Croatia."

As a good gestures Pavelic appointed many Bosnian Moslems as officials of the NDH. In fact, the vice-president of the NDH were Bosnian Moslems, i.e. Kulenovic brothers from Bihac. From April to November, 1941, the Vice-President was Osman Kulenovic. Then, he had been replaced by his brother, Dzafer-beg Kulenovic, who occupied that post from November, 1941 to April, 1945. The latter also known as the president of the Jugoslovenska Muslimanska Organizacija (Yugoslavian Moslem Organization, JMO) and was the political leader of Bosnian Moslems.

Another high ranking Moslems in the NDH government was Dr. jur. Mehmed Alajbegovitch, or Alabegovic. During the NDH existence he became General Consul of the NDH at Munich; Croatian Minister for War Damaged Places ["skrbi za postradale Krajeve"] mid 1943- late 1944; Croatian Minister of Foreign Affairs, late 1944-May 1945.

Beside them, there were eleven Moslem political leaders of the JMO were invited to be part of the Sabor, the Ustasa NDH parliament in Zagreb. The Ustasa Commissioner for Bosnia-Hercegovina was Bosnian Moslem Hakija Hadzic (before the war he was a member of Croatian Peasant movement in Bosnia-Hercegovina).




Moslem militias from Gorazde

So, the NDH was a Croatian Catholic and Bosnian Moslem state, and the Bosnian Moslems become an integral part of it. From that fact, it was not surprising if there were many Bosnian Moslems who participated in the Ustasa cruelty action. The Ustasa itself recruited tens of thousand Moslem men to their regular or semi-regular army. Beside the Moslems also formed purely Moslem formations, like the Moslem Volunteer Legion, better known as Hadziefendiceva Legija (Hadzieffendic Legion), under Mohammed Hadzieffendic; the Zeleni Kadar (Green Cadres) the Nazi formation created by deserters from the Domobranci (Croatia Home Guard), led by Neshad Topcic; Mladi Muslimani (Young Moslem); Huska Miljkovicas Moslem Army; and the Gorazde-Foca milicijas (policing units). Their duties were not only to guard Moslem villages or to helped the Axis troops to fight the guerilla alone, but also actively participated in Ustasas policy to exterminated the Serbian peoples and other minorities in NDH.

[Crna Legija]

The Ustasa were insurgents and storm troopers? In their OWN country???

hahahaha

Let me guess, Pavelic was Darth Vader and Hitler was the Emperor LMFAO

Love your work D4S, keep it coming. The fine tradition of MPcomexdians.net continues. Classic!

[BHM]

Well, well you are improving, this is much better from your first posts......
but still some totaly wrong or twisted facts

What we have above are some interesting dates, as you can self see in your posts stands that division is formed in 1943 been on training and shiped back to bosnia in 1944 so how is possible that they commited crime in 1941 as you wrote in your first post?

Regarding ustasha I already posted some numbers, If fact that some of bosniaks joind ustasha proves that bosniaks where nazies. I can say the same regarding NEDICEVCI in Serbia, they where formed by German got help from Germans, even infamous gerilas chetniks cooperted with germans and ironicly with a HANDZAR DIVISION itself, yes you have read corectly 13`th Handzar division, this cooperation is very well described in a book "Himlers Bosnian division" what is very intersting is that after this "joined opertion" against partizans in North-Eastern Bosnia first big desertations from handzar division started to happen. I am just sory that i do not have a scanner to scan you a picture showing German officers from 13`th handzar division with chetniks. Talking about historical irony here you got one of the greatest .........


Huska Miljkovic and his milita (huska´s army) joind partizans in 1943 he was never a meber of ustasha, partizan, domobrani or any other formation until 1943 He was killed by ustashe. Area under his control is also known as Unska Opertivna Grupa NOVJ (una operational group of nationoal-liberation army of Yugoslavia). What he did until 1943 is protecting Cazinska Krajina only, he did not participated in any crime against serbs or anybody else.
Yong Muslims where not an armed formation, that is stupidity.

Now some pics
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4913/borciunskeoperativnegrupe1721t.jpg
huska`s militiaman

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3954/huskamiljkovic23224mi.jpg

bold guy in the center is Huska himself, tjeck military library in Belgrade there are at least two known books about Una operativ group and huska´s militia, nazi or ustasha I do not think so...

about Green Cader, hehe nazies? They where simply militia formed from muslim mebers of Domobrani and domobrani where not a nazi organization or units.

[Hessian]

Then after all that was done to them ( the serbs ) what did they do... they turned around in 1945 and did the same thing to the Germans they captured and their fellow country men... Then not to many years ago they did it again?

Nice bunch.

[Crna Legija]

Then after all that was done to them ( the serbs ) what did they do... they turned around in 1945 and did the same thing to the Germans they captured and their fellow country men... Then not to many years ago they did it again?

Nice bunch.

Sssssh Hessian. Don't tell the truth, it's getting in the way of a good story!

[asch]

According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (2nd tome, if i remember correct):

SS Handschar participated in the massacre of civilians in Bosnia and volunteered to join in the hunt for Jews in Croatia.

and projecting your arguments to present time - participating in organisation such as Al-Qaeda don't make you terrorist (if you not committed some terroristic acts). am i understand you right?

[DeathForSale]

Thank you BHM for sticking to articles, even thought I may disagree with you and you with me we can show it intellegently.

Crna Legija and Hessian, keep it up numbnuts, you're posts have been forwarded to mods.

[Crna Legija]

Yes O hooded assassin. Your wish is my command...

Keep up the comedy company routine sport, it's always good for a show'n'tell around the office :)

[Thor]

According to Chris Bishop, "Himmler convinced himself that Balkan Muslims were neither Slavs nor Turks, but were really Aryans who had adopted Islam." (Source: "SS: Hell on the Western Front. The Waffen SS in Europe 1940-1945", 2003. p.70). He believed the Muslims of Bosnia to be the same, racially, as the Croatians, and saw the Croatians as descended of Gothic and Persian stock.
Not aryan, aryan descent.. That's a big difference. Basically Himmler declared them as bastards.

[BHM]

Not aryan, aryan descent.. That's a big difference. Basically Himmler declared them as bastards.

Himmler`s bosnian division page 17:


"the "ReichsfUhrer"had always reserved the ranks of his organization for Aryans exclusively, it appears that he subscribed to theories advanced by both Croatian and German nationalists that the "Croatian" people, including the Muslims, ehere not etnich slavs but progeny of "pure Aryans" of either Gothic or of Iranian descent"

hehehhe what a stupidity, nazis where really flexsible when in need of cannon fodder.

Himmler was inspierd by succeses of Bosnian infantry regiments in WWI:

page 18:

" Himmler endavord to restore what he called "an old Austrian" tradition by reviving the Bosnian regiments of former Austo-Hungarian army in form of Bosnian - muslim SS Dvision. Once raised, this divison was to engage and destroy Tito`s Partizan forces operating in NORTHEASTERN Bosnia, thus restoring local "order". To be sure, Himmlers primary concern in the region was not security of the local Muslim population, but welfare of etnic German settlers to the north in Srem. "Srem is granary of Croatia, and hopefully it and our beloved German settelments will be secured. I hope that the area south of Srem will be liberated by.... the bosnian Division... so that we can at least restore partial order in this ridiculous (Croatian) state"

[Mastermind]

What a very interesting personal story. It just continues to reinforce my belief that we learn from history and can thus better survive the future. People who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Let us all be hopeful this particular bit of history is not repeated.

[DeathForSale]

Here is an excerpt from an old film of the Croatian concetration camp Jasenovac, the narrator explains how thousands upon thousands of Serbs, Jews and Gyspies were murdered with hammers, saws and other gruesome methods. And how the bodies were dumped in the mud and on the grounds of the camp and left to rot in the sun.

WARNING GRISLY IMAGES
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8171451847731316843&q=jasenovac

[Maresciallo]

My greatgrandfather on my Mothers side of the family was sent to Jasenovac where he died at the hands of the Ustase. His brother was in the Chetnik movement and was killed in Bosnia fighting the Handschar. If there is one thing I despise it's the SS, especially the Handschar.

I have relatives tha were thrown alive in the "foibe" in 1945, bys serbs, only because they were Italians! And if I remember well, a serb died some days ago when he was convicted for genocide.
And, thousands of serbs served in SS too, where they were distinguished more as nazi and massmurderers. A reputation that we have seen under our eyes in the 90ies, that was true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Volunteer_Corps

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=90

[Inquisitor]

There is book called "Himmler`s Bosnian Division" by Georg Lepre, guy have checked all sourcees from Belgrade`s war museum to German archives.
If you want a truth read his book, privious post are little "colored".

Let me just give you a little example how history is written in former YU.
As you may or may not be aware Bosnia was included in NDH (indipendent State of Croatia) created by nazies, so one can say that 13`th was a croatian division. When someone start talking about crimes commited by 13`th, croatian historians say that wasn`t a Croatian unit. But in France in at Villefranche de Rouergue each year some former maquies celebrate a day when 13`rebbeld against nazies. On that ocassion Croatia sends it`s millitary delegation each year, suddenly when something positiv is said about unit they say it was a croat division and that croats rebbeld against nazies.

What I have written is just to show how history in balkans is potrayed.

As I said read the Book and when you finnish you will be aware why bosniaks joined unit, it has nothing to do with nazism or jews but more with a bunch of "bearded" man called chetniks, there are some very intersting paralels with things from recent Yu war.

Mister DeathForsale wrote following:

"the SS Handschar divsion took part in the massacre in the Koritska Jama Gorge in Herzegovina during May/June 1941."

How is that possible if division is formed in 1943, Time travel maybe? Tjeck your dates you are talking nonsense.



Now I`ll quote something from a book: Page 317:

"The divisions combact record has been much malinged by many post war historians who in reality have prepetraded little if any actual reasrch on the subject."

Now somthing about why bosniaks joined division just to illustrate that bosniaks have not been nazies or fundamentalists sarving for blood as some would like to show, but rather victims of one other as blood thirsty ideology as nazism.

Page 15-16:

"Despite of Pavelic`s assurances of eqality, it wasn`t long before many Bosnian Muslims became dissatisfied with Croatian rule. "not one single Muslim" complained an Islamic leader, "occupied an influental post in the (local) administration. Even worse was the fierce fighthing that broke out between goverment forces and their allies on one side, the Partisans on another, and the Chetniks on the third. A number of Ustasa units belived the Muslims to be communist sympthizers and burned their villages and murderd civilians, while Chetniks accused them of taking part in Croatian Anti_ortodox excsses and preformed simmilar atrocities.
One german source states thatby 1943 (year of forming of division) over 100.000 Muslims had been killed (wich is 9% of total som of Bosnian muslims at the time) and 250.000 were refugees. "the Muslims" remarked one German General , "bear the special status of being persecuted by all others"

From thing above it`s easy to conclude why people joind 13`th, further they have been promised that they will fight in bosnia only.

again on page 317:

"It is obvious that German leadership and the Bosnians held different priorities. "The Bosnian volunteers were promised that they would be engaged only within their own lands".

And a little tabel to show how "mulims" where part of Ustasha regime, serbs like to say that all bosniaks where member of Ustashe truth is that not even 2% was with ustashe

goverment Post

Ministers: Catolics: 18 Muslims:2
State-Secretaries: Catolics: 6 Muslims:0
Peples rpresentativs: Catolics: 193 Muslims:13
Foreign Ministry: Catolics: 49 Muslims:2
finance Ministry (high Officials): Catolics: 159 Muslims:2
Ministry of interior: Catolics: 53 Muslims:0
(these are official recods from 1942)

You can self do a math, but if you listen serbian historians you will gat totaly oposit picture.

This thread is again a shining example how some people want to make recent tragedy in Bosnia "relativ" always mentonig 13`th or mujaheedin. Explaining their "heros" "handwork" as a deffence against nazis of fundamentalists. But i must say they improved themself from obvious naked attacks to cover it "as historical disscusion"

And just like mujahedden never wolud have come to Bosnia if Not for atrrocites commited by Mladic and his "chetniks" of 1992 , same way 13`th would never come to exsistence if not for Mihajlovic and his chetniks of 1942, history indeed is reapating itself.


AWESOME POST BHM.

Pretty much says everything I had to say.

Yay,they were such nazis that they mutinated against nazis... true nazis indeed

[DeathForSale]

I have relatives tha were thrown alive in the "foibe" in 1945, bys serbs, only because they were Italians! And if I remember well, a serb died some days ago when he was convicted for genocide.
And, thousands of serbs served in SS too, where they were distinguished more as nazi and massmurderers. A reputation that we have seen under our eyes in the 90ies, that was true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Volunteer_Corps

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=90
First off, you are trying to incite an flame war. You're post smells of napalm. Second of all this thread is about the SS Handschar and associated comrades. If you, Italian right-winger I have a feeling, want to prove to everybody how bad Serbs are feel free to open another thread. If you keep on like this I can promise you you're time here will be short lived.

[Inquisitor]

DeathforSale,since I see you are bringing up Jasenovac in this thread which has NOTHING TO with this thread,may I start posting about some nice things committed by the "anti-fascist chetniks"? (lol)

[DeathForSale]

AWESOME POST BHM.

Pretty much says everything I had to say.

Yay,they were such nazis that they mutinated against nazis... true nazis indeed
A small number of them, that number was quickly put down, the division finished it's training and was put on combat duty in Bosnia. I don't see why you are trying to sell me the lot of bad apple even if there is only one good one. They may not have been Nazis, but that doesn't make right their crimes against the "Non- Arayan" populations.

[Inquisitor]

may you quote me where I said their crimes were justified? I'd like to see that

[DeathForSale]

DeathforSale,since I see you are bringing up Jasenovac in this thread which has NOTHING TO with this thread,may I start posting about some nice things committed by the "anti-fascist chetniks"? (lol)
This thread was started, as I have said several times already in response to you're comment in another thread about how the SS Handschar "wasn't bad" to simplify it. Since the SS Handschar was an integral part of the Nazi plan in the Balkans, which of course included the Croatians and their concentration camps, so yes Inquisitor it is related. If you feel like opening another thread about how Serbian Royalists killed innocent and undefended Croats and Muslims then go right ahead *sigh* But please no more personal bickering on this thread.

[DeathForSale]

may you quote me where I said their crimes were justified? I'd like to see that
You said they were their solely to protect the Muslim populations from big bad Chetniks, you're tone implied that you beleived the formation of this unit was acceptable irregardless of it's "role" in the Balkans theater.

[Inquisitor]

This thread was started, as I have said several times already in response to you're comment in another thread about how the SS Handschar "wasn't bad" to simplify it. Since the SS Handschar was an integral part of the Nazi plan in the Balkans, which of course included the Croatians and their concentration camps, so yes Inquisitor it is related. If you feel like opening another thread about how Serbian Royalists killed innocent and undefended Croats and Muslims then go right ahead *sigh* But please no more personal bickering on this thread.

no DeathforSale as I could post the reasons why many muslims joined the ranks of that Legion I am not willing to do it, so people could comprehend more, I don't want any more flame wars. I find completely childish of you opening this thread,but whatever,I am used to guys like you

You said they were their solely to protect the Muslim populations from big bad Chetniks, you're tone implied that you beleived the formation of this unit was acceptable irregardless of it's "role" in the Balkans theater.

and in fact,I do believe so.

The point is,lol, you really act...stupid... saying they were created to commit crimes, it's like me saying chetniks were created to commit crimes.

They were officially created for a reason, but the true plans were different.

[DeathForSale]

no DeathforSale as I could post the reasons why many muslims joined the ranks of that Legion I am not willing to do it, so people could comprehend more, I don't want any more flame wars. I find completely childish of you opening this thread,but whatever,I am used to guys like you



and in fact,I do believe so.

The point is,lol, you really act...stupid... saying they were created to commit crimes, it's like me saying chetniks were created to commit crimes.

They were officially created for a reason, but the true plans were different.

I act stupid saying they were formed to create crimes? Gee I guess SS units were their to hand out choclates and flowers right? You don't want an flamewar then stop coming in and making smartass remarks, Inquisitor. :bash:
If you want to "discuss" this further, then please PM me.

[Inquisitor]

I act stupid saying they were formed to create crimes? Gee I guess SS units were their to hand out choclates and flowers right? You don't want an flamewar then stop coming in and making smartass remarks, Inquisitor. :bash:
If you want to "discuss" this further, then please PM me.

..seriously,wtf? LOL, we are in the SS Handschar thread in the historical section of the forum,and I shouldn't discuss about the reasons why they were being created here?and PM you?

no you guess wrong they were created because Hitler tought of muslims as invincible warriors so he liked the idea. Even Pavelic opposed the idea,since that would mean a pure bosnian muslim unit(thus not controlled by croats). In the end he had to agree,at least the division was named "croatian". Now, why muslims joined has been perfectly explained by BHM so I need not to repeat myself. The division even had to be sent back to bosnia because it didn't want to fight in france,simply because those who joined did it because they wanted a formation of their own to protect their homes.

[DeathForSale]

Okay so you're viewpoint is Muslims joined the SS Handschar to protect themselves and their families right? Then why all the slaughtering of innocent Serb civilians?

[Inquisitor]

Okay so you're viewpoint is Muslims joined the SS Handschar to protect themselves and their families right? Then why all the slaughtering of innocent Serb civilians?

I would guess the same of chetnik crimes?

[DeathForSale]

Well herein lies the problem, the Chetniks were formed on to protect Serbs and fight to restore the Serbian monarchy therefore the pledge "Za Krajla i Otadzbinu Sloboda ili Smrt" For King and the Fatherland Freedom or Death. They may have commited crimes against the Muslim and Croat population but considering the precedent set by the Germans against our countrymen, what was it for every dead soldier of the reich (which I assume would include Ustasha) 100 Serbs would be killed? I can't say I can blame General Draza who received an medal from an US veterans organization for rescuing American airmen by the way. You're attempts at making the word Chetnik a derogatory term for Serbs was/is in vain for those who prefer to look at history with a scrutinous eye.

Regards,
DFS

[Inquisitor]

Well herein lies the problem, the Chetniks were formed on to protect Serbs and fight to restore the Serbian monarchy therefore the pledge "Za Krajla i Otadzbinu Sloboda ili Smrt" For King and the Fatherland Freedom or Death. They may have commited crimes against the Muslim and Croat population but considering the precedent set by the Germans against our countrymen, what was it for every dead soldier of the reich (which I assume would include Ustasha) 100 Serbs would be killed? I can't say I can blame General Draza who received an medal from an US veterans organization for rescuing American airmen by the way. You're attempts at making the word Chetnik a derogatory term for Serbs was/is in vain for those who prefer to look at history with a scrutinous eye.

Regards,
DFS

they were paid for every soldier.

And you are totally getting out of the subject, I told you the reasons why chetnik committed crimes on others were the same why the handzar did on serbs. Get it?

P.S. I like how for chetniks you use the word "may" committed crimes. At least we admit the crimes our side did, you should try to do the same.

[DeathForSale]

Well even if they did commit crimes it doesn't really matter does it? They were on the "right side" of history.

[Inquisitor]

Well even if they did commit crimes it doesn't really matter does it? They were on the "right side" of history.

well,westeners don't give 2 *censored**censored**censored**censored*s if some thousands bosniak were slaughtered as long as you saved 500 american pilot so I guess it doesn't matter for them. But for us it does,and a lot,and u know it.

[DeathForSale]

And you killed hundred's of thousands of ours over the period of many years. If we were to play it even steven than there wouldn't be many Muslims left would their? See how pointless it is?

[BHM]

Only right side in Yugoslavia during WWII after my opinion where Paritizans wich where a mulitenic army, and even partizans where not angels , they did not show much mercy to captured chetniks,ustasa, Germans..........

[BHM]

And you killed hundred's of thousands of ours over the period of many years. If we were to play it even steven than there wouldn't be many Muslims left would their? See how pointless it is?


Just tell me what are you accusing bosniaks of, Ustasha crimes? That was not a "bosniak" regime, nor a bosniak state, Turkish crimes? I am not a turk, Recent War? number of victimes is in at least 6 bosniaks to 1 serb.
Just what is that bosniaks did to you during history, what bloody hundreds of thousands? We are not TURKS got it!!!!!! and even your "history" during turkish rule is myth if all of that serb historians claim is truth than serbs would have been eradicated 300 years ago..........

Are you aware of what are you doing? If bosniaks as people are quilty for crimes commited muslim members of ustasha (and they where less of 10% of muslims in ustasha units) than you and whole of Serbian nation is even more quilty for what happend only 11 years ago.

[Il-28]

His logic when it comes to SS units:

I act stupid saying they were formed to create crimes? Gee I guess SS units were their to hand out choclates and flowers right?

His logic when it comes to 'his' Chetniks:

Well herein lies the problem, the Chetniks were formed on to protect Serbs and fight to restore the Serbian monarchy therefore the pledge "Za Krajla i Otadzbinu Sloboda ili Smrt" For King and the Fatherland Freedom or Death. They may have commited crimes against the Muslim and Croat population but considering the precedent set by the Germans against our countrymen, what was it for every dead soldier of the reich (which I assume would include Ustasha) 100 Serbs would be killed?

I'm not suprised, this is tipical biased thinking. Everyone who likes WW2 history should not take you for serious.

Let me repeat myself again: I'm not justifying crimes which Ustasha regime did, but your way of thinking is simply dumb.

[Il-28]

Well even if they did commit crimes it doesn't really matter does it? They were on the "right side" of history.

:cantbeli:

[Saranof]

The above quote I think, summerises Deathforsales view of this topic

[DeathForSale]

:cantbeli:
I'm guessing you're not Russian? Right IL? Oh wait I see Austria, brithplace of................................

[DeathForSale]

The above quote I think, summerises Deathforsales view of this topic
What ran out of arguments for the gay community in the other thread so you have to come in here and start *censored**censored**censored**censored*? So far we have been having a heated debate, while you're comment is nothing but a weak attempt at an personal swipe at me. SO if you have nothing to add about Handschar, NDH, Ustashe, Chetniks, WW2 etc. I would kindly ask you to feck off.

Regards,
DFS

[DeathForSale]

Just tell me what are you accusing bosniaks of, Ustasha crimes? That was not a "bosniak" regime, nor a bosniak state, Turkish crimes? I am not a turk, Recent War? number of victimes is in at least 6 bosniaks to 1 serb.
Just what is that bosniaks did to you during history, what bloody hundreds of thousands? We are not TURKS got it!!!!!! and even your "history" during turkish rule is myth if all of that serb historians claim is truth than serbs would have been eradicated 300 years ago..........

Are you aware of what are you doing? If bosniaks as people are quilty for crimes commited muslim members of ustasha (and they where less of 10% of muslims in ustasha units) than you and whole of Serbian nation is even more quilty for what happend only 11 years ago.
Irregardless of whether you think you are not Turks or this or that can we agree on one thing at least, that the killing of civilians on any side is wrong and that the Handschar commited a fair number of crimes and move on?

[Il-28]

I'm guessing you're not Russian? Right IL? Oh wait I see Austria, brithplace of................................

...Hitler. So what?

I'm not Russian, not even Austrian.

[Crna Legija]

It's Ustasa, not Ustasha. There is no h.

At least get the spelling right, chetnik.

[DeathForSale]

IL-28
Check you're pm.

[TheRussian1]

after this thread, I'm not surprised the mods decided to lock all Balkan related topics.

[DeathForSale]

It's Ustasa, not Ustasha. There is no h.

At least get the spelling right, chetnik.
Sorry I insulted you with my incorrect spelling. But in english, the S in our language is spelt sh.

Regards,
DFS

[Crna Legija]

Well when you refer to us baby killers, then do so in our language.

You sir, are most uncouth.

[DeathForSale]

Okay Crna Legija, you're side didn't do anything, you were just protecting you're selves, the concentration camps and the dead is all Serbian and Communist propaganda etc. :roll:
Happy now?

[Johnny_H]

No the other thread is dedicated to pictures of the SS. Waffen SS are killers and fanatical soldiers at the same time. I opened this thread in response to what one person said in the pictures thread about the Handschar, that they were formed to counter "Serbian murdering Chetniks." I opened this thread to show the crimes they commited, and to show what they were "best at." All of these things are historical facts. If you don't like to admit the SS commited attrocities then why don't you join stormfront or something which would be suited to you're tastes.

Regards,
DFS

LMAO
wow well that was ... angry wasnt it?
First off I will have you know, that I am not a Neo-Nazi, nor am I any sort of Nazi sympathiser so you can can that **** right now, your obvious attempt to lure me into a pissing contest has failed, you can see for yourself just look at my posts in the other threads concerning the krauts in the second world war, and you will see my reasons are purely for historical interest, I just make it a point to read and study from all sides not just the "Good Guys" vs "The Bad guys" the "Red VS Blue" as yourself and many chose to view history.

I never ONCE said that Waffen SS units were not political soldiers of the Nazi party or ONCE denied these units were guilty even if by association with the crimes of the Nazi Party. So Nice try but im not one of these kids that will fall into a row with you cause you chose to ignore or selectivly quote people to make your point and aggrivate them into a argument.

I hope this was informative cause its all I am going to say on the Subject.

Peace


( PS I still maintain that the Handschar Div, is more of a symbolic unit that thier combat record really was not that impressive, but meh somone feel free to prove me wrong. )

[DeathForSale]

LMAO
wow well that was ... angry wasnt it?
First off I will have you know, that I am not a Neo-Nazi, nor am I any sort of Nazi sympathiser so you can can that **** right now, your obvious attempt to lure me into a pissing contest has failed, you can see for yourself just look at my posts in the other threads concerning the krauts in the second world war, and you will see my reasons are purely for historical interest, I just make it a point to read and study from all sides not just the "Good Guys" vs "The Bad guys" the "Red VS Blue" as yourself and many chose to view history.

I never ONCE said that Waffen SS units were not political soldiers of the Nazi party or ONCE denied these units were guilty even if by association with the crimes of the Nazi Party. So Nice try but im not one of these kids that will fall into a row with you cause you chose to ignore or selectivly quote people to make your point and aggrivate them into a argument.

I hope this was informative cause its all I am going to say on the Subject.

Peace


( PS I still maintain that the Handschar Div, is more of a symbolic unit that thier combat record really was not that impressive, but meh somone feel free to prove me wrong. )
Sorry If I come of as biased because I probably am, as I have noted before my family was personally on the receiving end of the Ustasa. Now, going away for 'personal stuff' and to the combat record of the Handschar, If you look at who they really faced it is not much of a suprise.

[Johnny_H]

Sorry If I come of as biased because I probably am, as I have noted before my family was personally on the receiving end of the Ustasa. Now, going away for 'personal stuff' and to the combat record of the Handschar, If you look at who they really faced it is not much of a suprise.

No worries man, like i said Im not a easily provoked person. Especially on a net forum, of course people are going to have differant opinions. Furthermore you are well within your rights to not want to hear someone who could be considered a "SS Fanboy" tell you about all the situations where the waffen SS wasnt involved with crimes, see the real bottom line is this..

The SS as a organisation on the whole including the military wing the Waffen SS was branded on good judgment a "Criminal organisation" no one contests that if anyone does contest that they need thier heads checked.

Certain Divisions were involved in crimes both against civilians and fellow soldiers alike, and certain divisions, kampfgrupps, regiments etc were not involved in such activities, the ones who were of course overshadow those who werent and that is history as it is written. The Truth really lies in the middle somewhere there is no one side of this argument that is more right then the other, both sides can make just as compelling arguments against the other.

So that being said, I just try to remain objective, if we are talking about Das Riech, Totenkoph ( just as two examples, furthermore Totenkoph troops did rotate from camps or so Ive read ) and such then I will certainly discuss crimes committed, but I also am willing to explore the fact that not every waffen ss recruit, soldier, general, officer was a crazed murdering criminal, some were just professional, and outstanding leaders/soldiers.

I hope I have at least made my position a little more clear, which I have done in two previous threads already. So DFS I really dont blame you for not liking topics were Waffen SS troops are in anyway shape or form showed in a non negative light, but you have to realise that someon can have a differant opinion of some of these soldiers without being a Nazi apologist or sympathiser, its just someone who is chosing at that point in time to take a look at perhaps those less guilty then most.

Peace

[BHM]

Irregardless of whether you think you are not Turks or this or that can we agree on one thing at least, that the killing of civilians on any side is wrong and that the Handschar commited a fair number of crimes and move on?


Hehehehehehehehe

So one day Serbs say we are Turks, second day we are Serbs, third... will you at least decide....

We can agree cimes did happend but you really can not say they commited crimes in Herzegovina or Western Bosnia if they never operated there, and ceartenly not in 1941, as I said chek your history.

You know how it`s done, bunch of bosnian/croatian soliders killes ( or Nato bomber drops a bomb on the willage) 6 people, in the willage next to it people is talking about 39 at least until it comes to Belgrade TV it`s at least 150, and two years after in history book in Serbia it standes 400, that`s how you right history....You of course won Battle of Kosovo in 1389 as you won in 1999 (Milosevic said: We said that we will not give up Kosovo and we DIDN`T gave up Kosovo), In WWI you where a best army of course (fact that you ended in Greece does not matter) again WWI was a classic example how Serbs "win the wars but loose a peace" (it is anotehr way around really).
Turks opressed serbs for 500 hundred years (fact that you cept fate, leanguge, and costums does not matter of course, somteimes I really wish they wher little more like a Spanish inquizition (this is morbid I know but I think you really need a cold splash of water in the face, think man, think)), Kraljevic Marko - great serbian warrior (fact that he was a turkish vassal doesn`t matter)
Chetniks wictims of WWII, thats all communist/fundamentalist lie Mr.Dedier lied of course in his memoars, Tito damn him - foreign agent baist aginst a Serbs.
Srebrenica - that is French agents job trying to accuse Serbia(thats what Krstic defence told us in Hauge), People in sarajevo bombed them selfs, Manjaca had 10.000 prisoners, that`s for their seafty of course, people on fotografs in "Times" it was just a bunch of ill people, they had anorexia, that`s why they are so thin.
It`s NATO`s fault that milion albanians are on refuge......
End so list goes on and on....

It is really pointless to discusse anything with you if you belive your dellusions. I never met bosniak saying we won the war against Austria in 1878 even if we fought them for three months, nobody ever said we won it and became "haven`s people" like Serbs did with Kosovo and almost any other battle or war in their history, any of our Generals accused of crimes in last war was sent in Hauge after two days, you are still hidding Mladic and Karadzic after 10 years.

shall I go on?

I appologize for getting of the track but I relly needed to tell him some things, and on the end I really must say that you just proved me right when I wrote in my first post that you started topic not for "pure historical reasons" ,you proved me right 101%.

Regarding combact analasis of 13`th SS division:


Himmlers Bosnian Division page 317:

Quote:
"During the division`s initial months in combact, i.e. before the collaps of the southeastern front, it proved to be more than a match for its enemies, as was admmited by all parties concernd. The experiment only desintegrated in autumn of 1944 with rapidly deterirating Axis military situation."

As I understand divison really had not time to prove itself, it came in operativ service in the end of 1943 to february 1944 Germany was already loosing the war, and Bosniaks really didn´t wanted to go anywhere but Bosnia.

Now little quote from page 316:

Quote:
"Indeed to many Muslims at this time, the Allied powers were an enemy, for it was they who supported the Serbian Cetniks, PERPETRIOTS of most of Anti-Muslim violence in Bosnia (it was not until the power politics of Teheran in November 1943 that a big three finaly abonded Mihailovic)"

page 316-317:

"looking back on his days in division, Imam Ibrahimovic stated:

"We had witnessed what Cetniks had done and were detemined to aid our counutrymen, This strid us to join the division. Who else was in position to help us?"


Here you got a reasons for bosniaks joining 13´th. End of story!!!!!

[Maresciallo]

I prefer the book Himmler's Black Order, wrotten by Robert Lumsden.

[Maresciallo]

Guys no matter what you say, there is no justification for creating an whole SS DIVISION. Not just an regular Werhmaht-style formation but an SS DIVISION. And that they needed to defend themselves from "big-bad bearded chetniks" is a very, very weak argument. Please stop polluting this thread with that garbage. Save the holocaust didn't happen stories for somewhere else please. Yeah, defending themselves right. I guess Germans who joined Totenkopf were just also defending themselves from the big-bad jews and other undesirable races. :roll:

Wehrmacht never accepted other citizens that were not german citizens. Initially French personel was included at Heer, but later it became SS Charlemagne.
The diference between a real SS Unit with the same status of German SS,w ere units that had non German commanders. As Dutch, French, Belgium, Serbija, etc. These were SS units that were considered by Himmler as reliable, and when something is prefered by Himmler.
P.e. you serbs make a great rumor about Skenderbeg Division.
Skenderbeg as Hanschar was exactly a Division der Wafen SS, not a Waffen SS Division. Skanderbeg was created at march 1944, only 3000 persons, and some of them were sailors of Kriegmarine, and they had GERMAN Commanders.
Serb SS was created in 1941, they had forever Serb Commanders, and they menaged the Death (for sale) lager of Zemun (infamous for its mafia and terrorists, and mass murderers).
You serbs must learn to look the realty in a different way.

[BHM]

Himmlers Black order is about SS in whole while the book I am talking about is about 13`th only....

[Maresciallo]

Himmlers Black order is about SS in whole while the book I am talking about is about 13`th only....

yes but it is very detailed for foreign SS members.

[DeathForSale]

Hehehehehehehehe

So one day Serbs say we are Turks, second day we are Serbs, third... will you at least decide....

We can agree cimes did happend but you really can not say they commited crimes in Herzegovina or Western Bosnia if they never operated there, and ceartenly not in 1941, as I said chek your history.

You know how it`s done, bunch of bosnian/croatian soliders killes ( or Nato bomber drops a bomb on the willage) 6 people, in the willage next to it people is talking about 39 at least until it comes to Belgrade TV it`s at least 150, and two years after in history book in Serbia it standes 400, that`s how you right history....You of course won Battle of Kosovo in 1389 as you won in 1999 (Milosevic said: We said that we will not give up Kosovo and we DIDN`T gave up Kosovo), In WWI you where a best army of course (fact that you ended in Greece does not matter) again WWI was a classic example how Serbs "win the wars but loose a peace" (it is anotehr way around really).
Turks opressed serbs for 500 hundred years (fact that you cept fate, leanguge, and costums does not matter of course, somteimes I really wish they wher little more like a Spanish inquizition (this is morbid I know but I think you really need a cold splash of water in the face, think man, think)), Kraljevic Marko - great serbian warrior (fact that he was a turkish vassal doesn`t matter)
Chetniks wictims of WWII, thats all communist/fundamentalist lie Mr.Dedier lied of course in his memoars, Tito damn him - foreign agent baist aginst a Serbs.
Srebrenica - that is French agents job trying to accuse Serbia(thats what Krstic defence told us in Hauge), People in sarajevo bombed them selfs, Manjaca had 10.000 prisoners, that`s for their seafty of course, people on fotografs in "Times" it was just a bunch of ill people, they had anorexia, that`s why they are so thin.
It`s NATO`s fault that milion albanians are on refug