European countries that never had Waffen SS divisions? [Archive]

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SerbPVO

03-11-2006, 02:25 AM

Can anyone name the countries where Nazi Germany didnd't have these domestic collaborators?

Ea$y-8

03-11-2006, 02:39 AM

Can anyone name the countries where Nazi Germany didnd't have these domestic collaborators?

England and Ireland for starters.

PeterG

03-11-2006, 02:45 AM

Why not list those countries who HAD 'divisions'..?

Crna Legija

03-11-2006, 02:47 AM

Croatia :)

tyovan4

03-11-2006, 03:05 AM

Technically, the British did have an SS unit. The British Free Corps.

Very, very small but it did exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Free_Corps

Sgt Kanderer

03-11-2006, 03:58 AM

M1A2U2

03-11-2006, 03:58 AM

Because almost all European countries had divisions. India also had a division. Their unifrom included a turbin.

Sgt Kanderer

03-11-2006, 04:00 AM

the numbers are only for the troops enlisted in the Waffen.

AROUETLJ

03-11-2006, 08:30 AM

Malta, Cyprus, Portugal. I doubt whether some nationalities would have been accepted as "Aryans", though.

perdurabo

03-12-2006, 04:23 AM

you forgot about Poland ;) we didn't had waffen-ss

Jakkech

03-12-2006, 08:35 AM

Malta, Cyprus, Portugal. I doubt whether some nationalities would have been accepted as "Aryans", though.
Well, it actually didn't matter that much. Finnish were classified as descendants of mongolians'.

AROUETLJ

03-12-2006, 11:06 AM

Yes but there's a limit to what the Nazis can accept.

theholeinthedonut

03-12-2006, 11:15 AM

Reichsdeutsche : considered as german citizens (Germany, Austria, Sudetes, Alsace & Lorraine (French), Luxembourg, sud Tyrol) : 400 000 troops

Volksdeutsche : considered as fereigner germans : (Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Banat Yougoslavia, Poland, Lithania ) : 300 000 Troops

Nordiqs :
Finland : 4 000
Danmark : 6 000
Norway : 8 000
Nederland : 40 000
Belgians : 25 000 (flemish)
Sweden : 300
Latvia : 25 000
Estonia : 15 000

Occindentals :
France : 10 000
Belgians : 9 000(Walloons)
Switzerlan : 700
UK : 100
Italia : 10 000

Slaves :
Russia : 18 000
Belorussia : 10 000
Ukrania : 30 000
Cosaques : 30 000
Turkmènes : 15 000
Goergia : 3 000
Armenia : 3 000
Tatars : 10 000
Kirgiz : 2 000
Uzbeks : 2 000
India : 5 000

Central & Balkans :
Slovenia : 6 000
Albania : 4 000
Serbians : 4 000
Bosnians : 20 000
Greece : 1 000
Czech : 5 000
Hungary : 40 000
Bulgaria : 3 000
Romania : 5 000

From L Van Greelen & F Steiner (germans), G Stein (US), and F Duprat (France).
Alltough the Germans considered the Luxemburgers as "Reichsdeutsche", the Luxemburgers themselves were radically anti-german. Alltough many were found in the Wehrmacht, as they were considered Germans, they didn't have a choice, many of them deserted and most that stood only did so because they wanted to spare the familly the consequences of their desertion.
The number of volunteers in the SS was very low, maybe a few dozens or so.

Schizo

03-12-2006, 11:16 AM

Slaves :
Russia : 18 000
Belorussia : 10 000
Ukrania : 30 000
Cosaques : 30 000
Turkmènes : 15 000
Goergia : 3 000
Armenia : 3 000
Tatars : 10 000
Kirgiz : 2 000
Uzbeks : 2 000
India : 5 000

Now, what are these Slaves? You meant Slavs, right?

And except Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Cossaks the list has nothing to do with Slavs.

Sorry, but this list is full of crap.

~~~~

03-12-2006, 11:25 AM

INDIA?!?

where the hell did they take them from?!?

Schizo

03-12-2006, 11:26 AM

INDIA?!?

where the hell did they take them from?!?

From India? p-)

~~~~

03-12-2006, 11:40 AM

From India? p-)

smuggled??

mountainbear

03-12-2006, 11:54 AM

INDIA?!?

where the hell did they take them from?!?

They were mainly prisoners of war from the North-African campaign.

Atlantic Friend

03-12-2006, 12:09 PM

you forgot about Poland ;) we didn't had waffen-ss

Didn't you have Polish people drafted, as Volksdeutsche non-German nationals ?

~~~~

03-12-2006, 12:17 PM

They were mainly prisoners of war from the North-African campaign.

that's interresting... thanks for the info.

a little offtopic but I 've found recently some information about a 30000 men strong brazilian division that fought alongside with the allies in the italian campaign during WW2. did you know that? well I didn't...

Atlantic Friend

03-12-2006, 12:19 PM

that's interresting... thanks for the info.

a little offtopic but I 've found recently some information about a 30000 men strong brazilian division that fought alongside with the allies in the italian campaign during WW2. did you know that? well I didn't...

Both Mexico and Brazil declared war on Nazi Germany, and yes, Brazil sent troops to the European Theater.

Sgt Kanderer

03-12-2006, 12:39 PM

Now, what are these Slaves? You meant Slavs, right?

And except Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Cossaks the list has nothing to do with Slavs.

Sorry, but this list is full of crap.

Sorry wrong translation !!!

I didn't make the list! just post it!

Ruledbyjames

03-12-2006, 12:56 PM

What about the Koerians captured on D-day? I thought they were SS. I could be wrong though.

Lazarou

03-12-2006, 01:48 PM

Finnish were classified as descendants of mongolians'.

Yes but we became "Honorary Aryans" (Ehrenarier) after the Winter War.
Ironically, the closest genetic relatives of Finns are found in Estonia, Flanders and Germany.

Count Lippe

03-12-2006, 01:57 PM

Now, what are these Slaves? You meant Slavs, right?

And except Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Cossaks the list has nothing to do with Slavs.

Sorry, but this list is full of crap.

Maybe they're in a list of peoples that fall under the Untermenschen BS cathegory...?

Maresciallo

03-12-2006, 02:38 PM

Serbia 15 000. One of the first Strange SS Units, they had non German commanders (sign of absolute fidelity to nasism). Serb SS managed the death lagers of Zemun and Pristina, and were distinguished on exterminating Jews. Only 10% of Jews from Serbia survived the war (70% in Kosva, 100% in Albania).

tkks

03-12-2006, 02:56 PM

Yes but we became "Honorary Aryans" (Ehrenarier) after the Winter War.
Ironically, the closest genetic relatives of Finns are found in Estonia, Flanders and Germany.Maybe wrong thread to discuss this, but just this week there was a program on tv about how Finland was habited, and they said we are closest to the Estonians and Swedes. Quite the same still.

Brzeczyszczykiewicz

03-12-2006, 04:06 PM

Didn't you have Polish people drafted, as Volksdeutsche non-German nationals ?
Some Polish citizens (the term "Poles" doesn't fit there- by signing the Volksliste they declared themselves as native Germans) from the provinces incorporated directly into the Reich were drafted into the Wehrmacht. They have been sent on the Western front and were deserting commonly in order to join the Allied armies. There were also some militia ("Sonderdienst") and self-defence (202 Schutzmannschaftsbataillon) units composed of the Polish Volksdeutsche volunteers who were known for their atrocities commited on the Polish, Jewish and Ukrainian population.

There was no ethnically Polish Waffen-SS unit throughout the whole war. The Germans were aware of that they're deeply hated by the Polish population so they have never tried to create such units. However in 1942 they made an attempt to create a Waffen-SS unit composed of the Polish highlanders ("Gorale") whom they considered as being the closest to the Aryan race among the Polish sub-humans. They managed to amass around 200 people and sent them to Trawniki base where they were to recieve their basic trainig. Half of the volunteers deserted while on the road, the remaining half started fighting with the Ukrainians who trained at the same base. Only 12 of them finished their basic training and Germans abandoned the whole idea...

KrajinaKNN

03-12-2006, 05:11 PM

Inquisitor

03-12-2006, 05:24 PM

hahahahhaa yes yes now go back to your village called Tirana or will u wait till USA leaves so we can kick your ass back

I believe he's italian.

DnA

03-12-2006, 05:46 PM

What about the Koerians captured on D-day? I thought they were SS. I could be wrong though.

*Koreans

They were in Ost Battalions in the Heer/Wehrmacht, not SS.

Lazarou

03-12-2006, 06:38 PM

Maybe wrong thread to discuss this, but just this week there was a program on tv about how Finland was habited, and they said we are closest to the Estonians and Swedes. Quite the same still.

Genetists say the Belgians are our closest relatives according to our genes. Estonians, Swedes and Germans come close too.

http://www.tiede.fi/arkisto/artikkeli.php?id=278&vl=2002
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_people

...but of course these mathematical models are not 100 % accurate. And our genes seem to change all the time; first the Swedes said we were Mongoloids, then the Germans told us we were Aryans, then our post-WW2 far-left scientists claimed we were some "insignificant people from Volga" and now they say we're Belgians. Confusing, eh? ;)

Lurps

03-12-2006, 06:50 PM

And to be precise, the Belgian Flams.

Ruutiukko

03-12-2006, 06:54 PM

Well, technically speaking there were no Finnish SS Divisions, Division Viking had also Norwegians and citicens of other countries. 4000 is not quite a division ;)

Lurps

03-12-2006, 07:01 PM

Well, technically speaking there were no Finnish SS Divisions, Division Viking had also Norwegians and citicens of other countries. 4000 is not quite a division ;)And the 4000 sounds pretty high to my knowledge, unless it includes men that went to Germany after the-44 armistace, then there wouldnt be any documents on Finnish end.

Il-28

03-12-2006, 08:54 PM

They were in Ost Battalions in the Heer/Wehrmacht, not SS.

Osttruppen p-)

ogukuo72

03-12-2006, 10:55 PM

DeathForSale

03-12-2006, 11:02 PM

I believe he's italian.
I beleive he is firefighter from ze' moon!

Lokos

03-13-2006, 01:41 AM

Serbia 15 000

He is obviously referring to the Srpski Dobrovoljacki Korpus - the shock troopers of the Nedic regime. Most of the initial cadre was drawn from the ZBOR organization and refugees from Croatia. The SDK was formed on 17 September 1941, but was only transferred under SS authority in November 1944, due to a branch-of-service redistribution by ethnic group. However, this relationship with the Waffen SS only ever existed on paper, and never went beyond paperwork.

Finally, as a combat formation (engaged near-continuously from late 1941 until 1945), it did not run any 'death camps'. Your allegation is a proposterous lie.

Lokos

DeZzErX

03-13-2006, 05:03 AM

And to be precise, the Belgian Flams.

You're my family :hug:

Quite weird tho, since we are actually closely related to the Dutch too :p

I wonder how the hell our genes got all the way over there. Unless you guys have the same Frankish ancestors lol

tkks

03-13-2006, 05:19 AM

Genetists say the Belgians are our closest relatives according to our genes. Estonians, Swedes and Germans come close too.

http://www.tiede.fi/arkisto/artikkeli.php?id=278&vl=2002
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_people

...but of course these mathematical models are not 100 % accurate. And our genes seem to change all the time; first the Swedes said we were Mongoloids, then the Germans told us we were Aryans, then our post-WW2 far-left scientists claimed we were some "insignificant people from Volga" and now they say we're Belgians. Confusing, eh? ;)But is that the latest knowledge, because that program I saw was very new and the said that "according to the latest researches".

Anyway, still even few decades ago politics had a lot to do with the way how Finns were "placed on the map". In the beginnig of 20th century Swedes boosted their own ego and aryanism by saying that Finns were from Mongolia. A bit later Germans said Finns are aryans because they benefited from that. In the seventies those far-left scientist benefited, when they came up with that Volga-theory.

None of those theories were really based on real science. Real scientific results, based on genetic heritage, show that majority of Finnish genes come from Central Europe, some from Eastern Europe, but nowhere that far as that Volga-theory claimed. And there are differences between people living in Western and Eastern Finland.

Maresciallo

03-13-2006, 06:30 AM

hahahahhaa yes yes now go back to your village called Tirana or will u wait till USA leaves so we can kick your ass back

so you kill some more children???? I beleive you! Sllobo was not the last serb massmurderer!

PsihoKekec

03-13-2006, 06:32 AM

There was also idea to create Slovenian WaffenSS division, but it never got to a start becouse it was hard enough to fill domobrans (collaborationists) units, so there was no slovenian SS unit.

AROUETLJ

03-13-2006, 06:57 AM

Well, I don't think the Spanish or Italians have had a SS Division, despite being facist countries, whereas countries like Holland and France - supposedly liberal countries - had contributed SS troopers.

No, Italy did have an SS Division. And while there was no Spanish SS unit as such, some Spanish volunteers did join other SS units.

By the end of the war, the definition of "Aryan" had become so wide that the Nazis themselves showed how inconsistent their theory was. As soon as you start classifying people according to some model of "perfection", you're down to just a handful, and you can't form an army out of half a dozen supermen.

Lurps

03-13-2006, 07:28 AM

You're my family :hug:

Quite weird tho, since we are actually closely related to the Dutch too :p

I wonder how the hell our genes got all the way over there. Unless you guys have the same Frankish ancestors lolWell there are theories that Finland has gotten most of its population from central Europe. It could be just a one small tribe splitting in two with others going west, others to the north. Theres probably been wawes of imigrants during different periods. The mystery is how we speak a finno-ugric language. This is actually a very interesting subject.

AROUETLJ

03-13-2006, 08:10 AM

Isn't the Finnish language related to Hungarian?

Atlantic Friend

03-13-2006, 08:30 AM

Isn't the Finnish language related to Hungarian?

Not 100% sure, but I think you might make a confusion here with the group of languages called Finno-Ugrian.

Snoshi

03-13-2006, 08:34 AM

nooo there goes an other balkan flame war...

Lurps

03-13-2006, 08:46 AM

Isn't the Finnish language related to Hungarian?Yes, but they are a bit distant. Finnish and estonian belong to the finnic branch and hungarian to the ugric branch. And genetically from totally different stock. Its really interesting how these three languages have survived new populations coming to the area, ending up changin their language to these finno-ugric ones.

foxtrot023

03-13-2006, 10:02 AM

No, Italy did have an SS Division. And while there was no Spanish SS unit as such, some Spanish volunteers did join other SS units.

By the end of the war, the definition of "Aryan" had become so wide that the Nazis themselves showed how inconsistent their theory was. As soon as you start classifying people according to some model of "perfection", you're down to just a handful, and you can't form an army out of half a dozen supermen.

Spain had a division but in the german Heer, the 250th Inf. Div. The Spaniards didn´t cared a fig about Nazi´s theories in race, but they really wanted to payback the SU for their help to the republicans in the Spanish Civil War.

Some Spaniards did join the SS, and were grouped some in the 9th div some with the french and belgians.

Maresciallo

03-13-2006, 11:41 AM

Spain had a division but in the german Heer, the 250th Inf. Div. The Spaniards didn´t cared a fig about Nazi´s theories in race, but they really wanted to payback the SU for their help to the republicans in the Spanish Civil War.

Some Spaniards did join the SS, and were grouped some in the 9th div some with the french and belgians.

Italian was 29 Div. Waffen SS

Limeyfellow

03-17-2006, 05:58 PM

England and Ireland for starters.

While they never had SS troops there were SS units made up of English and Irish troops and there was that conspiracy in Ireland to let German troops invade as a stepping stone.

cinoeye

03-20-2006, 03:50 PM

He is obviously referring to the Srpski Dobrovoljacki Korpus - the shock troopers of the Nedic regime. Most of the initial cadre was drawn from the ZBOR organization and refugees from Croatia. The SDK was formed on 17 September 1941, but was only transferred under SS authority in November 1944, due to a branch-of-service redistribution by ethnic group. However, this relationship with the Waffen SS only ever existed on paper, and never went beyond paperwork.

Finally, as a combat formation (engaged near-continuously from late 1941 until 1945), it did not run any 'death camps'. Your allegation is a proposterous lie.

Lokos
You are right, thank you for the input. Serbian did't have any ideological connection with the NAZI. But it is true, they did have some formations under the occupation. Nedic Zandarms where some sort of police(as well as today or before the ww2) and same we had the same situation all over the occupied Europe. SDK was only politicly based armed formation, but primary mission was to fight communists.
I'm realy suprised not to see Bosnia or Croatia on that list.
The 369th Reinforced Infantry Regiment, 369th "Devil's" Division, 373rd "Tiger" Division, 392nd "Blue" Division, the Croatian Airforce Legion, The Croatian Naval Legion, the 13th Waffen SS Mountain Division "Handschar", the 23rd Waffen SS Mountain Division "Kama", "Croatia" Police Regiments 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, Police Anti-Tank Company "Croatia", and Gendarmerie Division "Croatia". As well, the Light Transport Brigade and Croatian Legion both served under Italy during WWII.
http://www.feldgrau.com/pk-63030-1.jpg
http://www.jasenovac.org/images/e_SS-HRiBSN.jpg

Zapp Brannigan

03-20-2006, 06:11 PM

For those actually interested in history, rather than flame-fests:

The Waffen SS originally couldn't recruit from German citizens (Reichsdeutsch) who had not already completed military service. So they began recruiting from Volksdeutsch, who being citizens of other countries weren't subject to conscription into the Wehrmacht. In some cases, this was controversial. Hungary, for example, had a large ethnic German population and felt the SS was stealing recruits from Hungary's own military.

After the war started, the SS also recruited foreigners whom it considered properly Aryan, mainly from various conquered countries. These included Danes, Norwegians, Dutch and Flemish Belgians, as well as Swiss and Swedes.

Non-"Aryans" were not acceptable to the Waffen SS at this time. Thus, the Walloon Legion and the French Volunteer Legion, for example, were originally German Army units. So-called "Eastern Peoples" (Ostvoelker) were also recruited into volunteer units in the Army and Luftwaffe after the invasion of the USSR (though some, like the Ukrainian Gruppe Nachtigall, existed before the invasion). Eastern Peoples units included Slavic units, such as Cossacks, Russians, Byelorussians and Ukrainians, and non-Slavic units, including Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Armenians, Ossetians, Tatars and various Central Asians. Some came from territories overrun by the Germans, others from among Soviet POWs. There were also Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian units. Croatians, as Slavs, were originally not in the SS - SS units recruited in the Balkans were originally from Volksdeutsch there.

As the SS expanded and became thirsty for more power, the "Aryan" standard was relaxed and the Waffen SS began recruiting from various occupied peoples. Also, entire units, such as the Walloon Legion and Georgian Legion, were transferred to the SS. This also happened with the Charlemagne Assault Brigade (Sturmbrigade "Charlemagne"), the French legion in the German Army. Sturmbrigade Charlemagne was transferred to the Waffen SS and beefed up with French fascist militiamen and members of the Vichy version of the Gestapo, but was never truly a division in strength.

The British Legion, by the way, was tiny and no more than a propaganda tool. The Indian Legion was slightly larger, but never significant. German efforts to raise Irish units among POWs failed.

As was noted by another poster, the Germans never made an effort to recruit Poles for the Wehrmacht or the Waffen SS, though some classified as ethnic Germans ended up getting conscripted. Czechs (Bohemians and Moravians) were also exempt, but Sudeten Germans were not. Slovakia was nominally independent, so it had its own armed forces. Greeks were probably the only other nationality in occupied Europe not recruited or conscripted. Serbs generally weren't recruited into German formations, but as Lokos notes, the SDK was absorbed by the Waffen SS in November 1944 (though they never adopted SS uniforms and as Lokos mentions it was more administrative than anything else).

By the way, those Georgians, Russians and Central Asians captured in Normandy were Army, not Waffen SS. They included the 265. Infanterie Division's 634. and 800. Ostbataillonen, the 716. Infanterie Division's 642. and 439. Ostbataillonen. the 711. Infanterie Division's 781. Ostbataillon, the 346. Infanterie Division's 630. Ostbataillon and the 709. Infanterie Division's 649., 561., and 795. Ostbataillonen. The 708. Infanterie Division had a Cossack regiment, but it apparently did not deploy with the division to Normandy.

Regarding Spaniards, after the Division Azul returned to Spain, a number of Spanish soldiers volunteered to stay, forming the Légion Azul. In late 1944, what was left of the Légion Azul was transferred to the Waffen SS, forming the Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101. A second company, the Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 102, was formed in March 1945. These units were destroyed in Berlin while serving in the 11. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nordland, a mainly Danish and Norwegian unit.

So, to sum up, many European nationalities were represented in the Waffen SS, even if only in a technical administrative sense, and even more in the Wehrmacht as a whole. Poles, Czechs and Greeks were the only major nationalities in occupied Europe generally exempt from German recruiting or transfers en masse.

Zapp Brannigan

03-20-2006, 06:20 PM

While they never had SS troops there were SS units made up of English and Irish troops and there was that conspiracy in Ireland to let German troops invade as a stepping stone.
There have only been documented two Irishmen in the Waffen SS: SS-Unterscharführer James Brady and SS-Mann Frank Stringer. Both served in Otto Skorzeny's SS-Jagdverband Mitte.

The Britisches Freikorps was, as I mentioned, tiny. It probably had no more than 25-30 members (not all British; there were a few Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans).

There were also perhaps a handful of Americans, mainly Volksdeutsch.

cinoeye

03-20-2006, 08:33 PM

Zapp Brannigan, great post, but still one qestion:What are the other non-major nationalities next to Poles, Greeks and Czech?

Zapp Brannigan

03-21-2006, 03:40 PM

Zapp Brannigan, great post, but still one qestion:What are the other non-major nationalities next to Poles, Greeks and Czech?
There are lots of smaller nationalities in Europe. In many cases, they were not treated any differently than their countrymen of whatever country they were from. Thus, the Germans didn't really distinguish among Norwegians and Sami, or Bretons and French, or Frisians and Dutch (or Frisians and Germans, for that matter). I don't think the Germans treated Kashubians in Pomerania any differently than Poles: they were both Slavic second-class subjects of the German Reich.

In other cases, they did distinguish. Thus, Walloons were treated differently than Flemings, with the latter being considered "Aryan". Flemings began to be recruited into a Waffen SS legion in late 1940, after Belgium was occupied. Walloons, by contrast, were treated as an occupied people until the invasion of the Soviet Union, when a Walloon Legion was authorized as an Army unit, not SS. This was Infanterie-Bataillon 373. It was in June 1943 that the Walloons were transferred to the Waffen SS, as SS-Sturmbrigade Wallonien (which later became 28. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Wallonien).

After the invasion of the Soviet Union, the Germans began forming ad hoc volunteer units from Soviet POWs and peoples in the occupied territories. For the most part, these were organized on ethnic lines. Russians, Ukrainians, Russian and Ukrainian Cossacks and other Slavs had their own units. Other ethnicities had either separate units, such as the Armenian Legion, the Azerbaijani Legion and the Georgian Legion, or were lumped into multi-ethnic units such as the North Caucasian Legion, Turkestani Legion and Volga Tatar Legion.

Thus, in many cases, you cannot identify a separate ethnically-based unit, but people of that nationality were recruited into the Wehrmacht or Waffen SS. Of regions actually under German occupation or influence (i.e., excluding Malta, which someone already mentioned in this thread), I don't know if you can easily pick out every minority and say whether they were recruited separately, recruited as part of a larger national unit, or not recruited at all. Probably the most significant which comes to mind are the Gypsies, who like Jews were targets of extermination.

Lithuanians did not form their own separate legions like the Latvians and Estonians, but a fair number of Lithuanian police and local defense units ended up fighting the Soviets.

Slovenes, as PsihoKekec noted in post #43, did not form a separate SS unit, but the SS did take over the Slovensko Domobranstvo in 1943, which by 1944 had a strength of about 11,500. This was from the part of Slovenia which had been given to Italy in 1941. In the parts of Slovenia incorporated into Germany (Lower Styria, Carinthia and Upper Carniola) in 1941, local units were mainly raised from ethnic Germans. But the 24. Waffen-Gebirgs-(Karstjäger-)Division der SS evolved from local "Karstwehr" or "Karstjäger" units which included Italians, Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Germans and Ukrainians.

An overview, although somewhat incomplete, organized by country and unit is here: http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=307

Lokos

03-21-2006, 05:15 PM

High quality contributions, Zapp.

Kudos.

Lokos

lightfire

03-21-2006, 05:35 PM

Lithuania never had a Waffen SS division.

Cyclop

03-22-2006, 01:52 PM

As far as I know there was not a single unit where only Austrians served - they were everytime mixed with germans.

Zapp Brannigan

03-23-2006, 11:47 PM

As far as I know there was not a single unit where only Austrians served - they were everytime mixed with germans.
After the Anschluss, Austria ceased to exist. It was divided into seven Reichsgaue of Germany - Wien (Vienna), Niederdonau (Lower Danube), Oberdonau (Upper Danube), Salzburg, Steiermark (Styria), Kärnten (Carinthia) and Tirol (Tyrol). These regions formed two military regions - Wehrkreis XVII (Vienna) and Wehrkreis XVIII (Salzburg).

Since Austria had no separate existence, there were officially no separate purely Austrian units. But the Wehrmacht had a basic regimental system - divisions maintained depots and drew troops from replacement units in those depots. Thus, units raised in Wehrkreis XVII and Wehrkreis XVIII were mainly manned by Austrians, even though they had no official "Austrian" status. Among these were:

2. Gebirgs-Division - formed in 1938 in Innsbruck from the 6. Division of the Austrian Bundesheer
3. Gebirgs-Division - formed in 1938 in Graz from the 5. and 7. Divisionen of the Austrian Bundesheer
4. leichte Division - formed in 1938 in Vienna from the Schnelle Division of the Austrian Bundesheer; became the 9. Panzer-Division in 1940.
45. Infanterie-Division - formed in 1938 in Linz
262. Infanterie-Division - formed in 1939 in Wehrkreis XVII
137. Infanterie-Division - formed in 1940 at Döllersheim
100. leichte Infanterie-Division - formed in 1940 at Döllersheim; renamed 100. Jäger-Division in 1942 and destroyed at Stalingrad
297. Infanterie-Division - formed in 1940 in Bruck an der Leitha.
327. Infanterie-Division - formed in 1940 in Vienna
717. Infanterie-Division – formed in 1941 and renamed 117. Jäger-Division in 1943.
243. Infanterie-Division – formed in 1943 at Döllersheim
334. Infanterie-Division – two of its regiments were raised in 1942 in Wehrkreis XVII and Wehrkreis XVIII. It was destroyed in Tunisia in 1943.
183. Volks-Grenadier-Division - formed in 1944 at Döllersheim
188. Reserve-Gebirgsjäger-Division - formed in 1944 in Innsbruck
One unit did have a connection to Austrian military tradition. This was the 44. Infanterie-Division, formed in Vienna in 1938. The division was destroyed at Stalingrad in January 1943. A new 44. Division was raised in June 1943 and named the (44.) Reichsgrenadier-Division Hoch- und Deutschmeister. The division's Reichsgrenadier-Regiment Hoch- und Deutschmeister carried the traditions of the k.u.k. Infanterie-Regiments Hoch- und Deutschmeister Nr. 4. That imperial regiment's traditions are currently carried by the Jägerregiment Wien "Hoch- und Deutschmeister" (http://www.bmlv.gv.at/organisation/beitraege/jgrw/index.shtml), which does not consider the Wehrmacht unit to be part of its heritage (the regimental history runs from 1696 to 1938 and then picks up from 1956 to today).

Although the troops of these divisions generally came from the former Austria, their officers, like most German officers, routinely moved from division to division, and had no specific Austrian background. Also, Austrian Bundesheer officers who became Wehrmacht officers often went on to command units far from Austria.

Three Austrians became colonel generals in the Wehrmacht - Luftwaffe Generaloberst Alexander Löhr and army Generaloberste Erhard Raus and Dr. Lothar Rendulic. Löhr commanded, among others, Luftflotte 4, Oberbefehlshaber Südost and Heeresgruppe E. Raus led XXXXVII Panzerkorps and 4., 1. and 3. Panzerarmeen. Rendulic led XXXV. Armeekorps and 20. Gebirgsarmee.

Nineteen Austrians reached General, including General der Gebirgstruppe Julius "Papa" Ringel and General der Infanterie Edmund Glaise von Horstenau, who was German Plenipotentiary General in Croatia. 41 rose to Generalleutnant. 98 made Generalmajor, including Generalmajor Erwin Lahousen, Edler von Vivremont, who headed the sabotage section of German military intelligence. One made rear admiral.

The highest ranking Austrian in the Wehrmacht, though, was a field marshal. Retired k.u.k. Feldmarschall Eduard Freiherr von Böhm-Ermolli, who made field marshal as commander of an army group in the Imperial Austrian Army, was given honorary rank as a field marshal in the German Army in 1940 and made colonel-in-chief of a German infantry regiment in 1941.

["k.u.k.", by the way, means kaiserlich und königlich, or "imperial and royal", and indicates an Austro-Hungarian Army or Navy unit or officer.]

Cyclop

03-24-2006, 03:59 AM

Wow! Thank you very much for your posting. I find it quite interesting, that there were foreign wehrmacht units with only some german officers, but in the units with austrian soldiers there were always a big group of germans.

Koen

03-24-2006, 08:41 AM

And our genes seem to change all the time; first the Swedes said we were Mongoloids, then the Germans told us we were Aryans, then our post-WW2 far-left scientists claimed we were some "insignificant people from Volga" and now they say we're Belgians. Confusing, eh? ;)[/QUOTE]

Welcome my newest brothers.... I shall honour you all tonight with a few bottles of Wodka and get a sauna organised ,ok ?

Zapp Brannigan

03-24-2006, 01:23 PM

For Austrians, there is one other unit to add: SS-Verfügungstruppe-Standarte "Der Führer" was raised in Vienna in March 1938. It joined the other regiments of the SS-Verfügungstruppe in the invasion of Poland.

These regiments were formed into a division in April 1940, becoming the first division-sized SS formation, the SS-Division Verfügungstruppe. In February 1941, the division was renamed SS-Division "Reich" and in October 1942 this was changed to "Das Reich". A month later, it became a mechanized division, the SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Das Reich", and in October 1943 it was made an armored division, the 2. SS-Panzerdivision "Das Reich".

When the division was renamed "Reich", SS-Standarte "Der Führer" became SS-Regiment "Der Führer". The regiment was almost completely destroyed in the first winter in the Soviet Union, reduced to 29 men by January 1942. It was filled with replacements and when the division was mechanized in late 1942, it became 4. SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment "Der Führer". This unit was responsible for the massacre of the village of Oradour-sur-Glane, France.

The unit is an example of how the Waffen SS treated German nationality, though. Although originally raised in Vienna, no distinction was made in later assignments among Germans and Austrians. When it was destroyed in the invasion of the Soviet Union, replacements came from all over the Reich, not just from the former Austria. So while originally mostly made up of Austrians, by 1944 it was just another German unit, with a Tirolean here, a Berliner there, and a Rhinelander over there.

The commander of the regiment at the time of the massacre was an Austrian, though. SS-Standartenführer Sylvester Stadler was from Fohnsdorf in the Steiermark and had joined the SS well before the Anschluss. Stadler lived out his life after the war in Bavaria, dying in 1995 at age 84.

The other commanders of "Der Führer" were Germans. Stadler's predecessor, Otto Kumm, was from Hamburg, and Stadler's successor, Otto Weidinger, was from Würzburg. Kumm's predecessor, the man who raised the regiment in Vienna and led it until 1941, was Georg Keppler, born in Mainz and a veteran of World War I. Like Stadler, all lived long lives. Keppler died in 1966 at the age of 72. Weidinger died in 1990 at the age of 75. And Kumm was the last Waffen SS general to die, passing away at age 94 two years ago yesterday (March 23, 2004).

Cyclop

03-24-2006, 01:26 PM

Impressive! Is there anything you do not know about the wehrmacht?

Uninen

03-24-2006, 03:05 PM

Finland : 4 000
Not anywhere near that number actually only about 1400.

Finnish Volunteers in the Wehrmacht in WWII (http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=19)

Also see:

Freiwillige - The Foreign Volunteers (http://www.feldgrau.com/main1.php?ID=7)

Zapp Brannigan

03-24-2006, 07:08 PM

Finland : 4 000Not anywhere near that number actually only about 1400.
Most of the numbers in that list appear exaggerated. The sources aren't the most reliable.

From L Van Greelen & F Steiner (germans), G Stein (US), and F Duprat (France).
George H. Stein's The Waffen SS: Hitler's Elite Guard at War, 1939-45 is generally considered to be objective.

SS-Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner commanded the Wiking Division of the Waffen SS, which was the division formed originally of German, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian and Finnish volunteers. After the war, he was one of the founders of HIAG (Hilfsgemeinschaft auf Gegenseitigkeit der ehemaligen Angehörigen der Waffen-SS e.V.), the association of Waffen SS veterans. He wrote two books, Die Armee der Geächteten ("The Army of Outcasts") and Die Freiwilligen der Waffen-SS: Idee u. Opfergang ("The Volunteers of the Waffen SS: Idea and Sacrifice"), which were apologiae for the Waffen SS.

Lothar van Greelen was a penname used by former SS-Untersturmführer Lothar Greil for the book Verkauft und verraten: Westfront 1944. Greil was another member of HIAG who also published a number of books under his own name, including Gloria mundi: Invasion 1944, Oberst der Waffen-SS Joachim Peiper und der Malmedy-Prozess and Slawenlegende: Die deutschen Opfer einer irrigen Geschichtsbetrachtung ("The Slavic Legend: The German Victims of a False Historical Conception"). The last book argued that Slavs were really a Germanic people.

Steiner and Greelen/Greil basically pushed the view of the Waffen SS as a pan-European and anti-Communist force, defending Western civilization from the Bolshevik hordes, and claimed the Waffen SS was essentially independent of the Allgemeine SS and innocent of Nazi crimes. SS-Oberstgruppenführer Paul Hausser, another HIAG founder and one of the highest-ranking Waffen SS commanders, also adhered to this argument after the war, and titled his memoirs Soldaten wie andere auch: Der Weg der Waffen-SS ("Soldiers just like any other: the way of the Waffen SS").

The only "F Duprat (France)" I know of with any connection to Third Reich historiography is François Duprat, a notorious Holocaust revisionist and one of the founding members of Jean-Marie Le Pen's Front National. Duprat wrote the article "Le mystère des chambres à gaz" (The Mystery of the Gas Chambers") and published the French language version of Richard Harwood's Did Six Million Really Die? ("En est-il vraiment mort six millions?"). Duprat was assassinated in 1978.

The best book on the Finnish contingent in the Waffen SS is reputedly Mauno Jokipii's book Panttipataljoona: suomalaisen SS-pataljoonan historia, but it is not available in English. There is also a website, "Finns of the Wiking" - Finnisches Freiwilligen Bataillon der Waffen-SS - A Pictorial History of the Finnish Volunteer SS-Battalion (http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/2130/index.htm).

MrX

04-01-2006, 06:00 AM

Lithuania never had a Waffen SS division.

Yes, because lithuanian bastards had own formation of murderes: the Shaulis, which f.g murdered 70-120.000 Jews and Poles at Ponary...

MrX

04-01-2006, 06:28 AM

I don't think the Germans treated Kashubians in Pomerania any differently than Poles: they were both Slavic second-class subjects of the German Reich.

Exactly, first mass murder in WWII was at Piasnica in October and November 1939 where 12-15.000 Kashubians and Poles were murdered by Germans. Most Kashubians from higher classes ended at Piasnica. But later, at the end of WWII, some Kashubians were forced to sign Volksliste and were incorporated to Wehrmacht.

Uninen

04-01-2006, 03:49 PM

Most of the numbers in that list appear exaggerated. The sources aren't the most reliable.
And others are way below what they infact were. But this is MPnet, so no wonder the accurate info is lacking here.

psychoticweazel

04-13-2006, 01:50 PM

England and Ireland for starters.

Wrong! There were a few British Waffen SS soldiers...hell there was even an Indian Waffen SS detachement!