Activists in Iran say U.S. strategy hurts their work

[kraf001]

Activists in Iran say U.S. strategy hurts their work (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002863686_iran14.html)



TEHRAN, Iran — Prominent activists inside Iran say President Bush's plan to spend tens of millions of dollars to promote democracy here is the kind of help they don't need.

In a case that advocates fear is directly linked to Bush's announcement, the government has jailed two Iranians who traveled outside the country to attend what was billed as workshops on human rights.

Two others who attended were interrogated for three days.

The workshops, conducted by U.S.-based groups, were held in April. But Iranian investigators did not summon participants until last month, about the time the Bush administration announced plans to spend $85 million "to support the cause of freedom in Iran this year."

"We are under pressure here both from hard-liners in the judiciary and that stupid George Bush," activist Emad Baghi said as he waited for his wife and daughter to emerge from interrogation last week.

The fallout illustrates the challenge facing Washington as it seeks a role in a country where U.S. influence is unwelcome even by many who share the same goal.

"Unfortunately, I've got to say it has a negative effect, not a positive one," said Abdolfattah Soltani, a human-rights lawyer recently released from seven months in prison.

After writing in a newspaper that his clients were beaten while in jail, Soltani was charged with offenses that included spying for the United States.

"This is something we all know, that a way of dealing with human-rights activists is to claim they have secret relations with foreign powers," said Soltani, who co-founded a human-rights defense group with Nobel laureate Shirin Ebadi. "This very much limits our actions. It is very dangerous to our society."

Activists said the Bush initiative demonstrates the chasm that often separates those working inside Iran for greater freedoms — carefully calibrating their actions to nudge incremental changes in a hostile system — and the more strident approach of many Iranian exiles who often have the ear of Washington.

"Our society is very complicated," said Vahid Pourostad, editor of National Trust, a reform newspaper. "Generally speaking, it is impossible to impose something from outside.

"It seems to me the United States is not studying the history of Iran very carefully," Pourostad said. "Whenever they came and supported an idea publicly, the public has done the opposite."


awesome, now that Mr. Bush was nice enough to tell the whole world how he is the one backing the opposition in Iran we could all look forward to democratic changes. The only problem is that nobody will listen to them because ppl will think they are US puppets and the government will have no problem getting rid of them. all government has to do is to charge them with treason and say they found some of Bush's $85 million in their pocket... absolutely brilliant, democratic Iran here we come! :cantbeli:

[G-Capo]

You dont live in Iran so you have nothing to worry about luckily.
How is Toronto this time of season :)

[kraf001]

You dont live in Iran so you have nothing to worry about luckily.
How is Toronto this time of season :)
I am an Iranian (by citizenship status) but for now you can have fun doing guess work on where I live... then again, I have my very own MP.net stalker that means I must have done/said something right!

[Resevoir Hogs]

awesome, now that Mr. Bush was nice enough to tell the whole world how he is the one backing the opposition in Iran we could all look forward to democratic changes. The only problem is that nobody will listen to them because ppl will think they are US puppets and the government will have no problem getting rid of them. all government has to do is to charge them with treason and say they found some of Bush's $85 million in their pocket... absolutely brilliant, democratic Iran here we come! :cantbeli:

Okay so you are mocking Bush for trying to help promote democracy in Iran?! Why don't you get mad at the Iranian government for being total basturds and jailing or killing people who want freedom and rights? Place blame where it is due I say. It's the Mullahs and the totalitarians who control Iran who should be dragged out into the street and shot. Not these ordinary Iranians who only want to have freedom and their basic human rights respected.

[kraf001]

Okay so you are mocking Bush for trying to help promote democracy in Iran?! Why don't you get mad at the Iranian government for being total basturds and jailing or killing people who want freedom and rights? Place blame where it is due I say. It's the Mullahs and the totalitarians who control Iran who should be dragged out into the street and shot. Not these ordinary Iranians who only want to have freedom and their basic human rights respected.
I enjoy the fact that there are political prisoners in my country because I believe the lack of such prisoners in a country is not because of the good nature of the government rather it means the critics are powerless and their criticism is weak.. political prisoners are strong evidence of a society being awake and makes me proud to see how my country is standing up for itself and taking steps towards reform and eventually democracy without any need to import such notions from abroad, aiming for a homegrown version instead..

I am mad at Bush and all the Western powers trying to pose as creators of democratic movement in Iran, taking away credibility from such movements... while coverage on political prisoners is followed by reformist media and majority of ppl passionately (this is the prime reason why government can't easily kill these figures as oppose to Shah and Savak) branding these movements as Western could easily kill the public interest..

so answer to your question is, Iranians are pretty angry about what the government does (however, having been through a failed revolution we have adopted a different approach in changing the government) but what Bush is saying will probably destroy most of that anger as most of the anti-governmental activities can be easily shown guided by the US therefore an act of treason now that US claims supporting them. then I wouldn’t be so sure of ppl get angry about government hurting these ppl!

[Resevoir Hogs]

I enjoy the fact that there are political prisoners in my country because I believe the lack of such prisoners in a country is not because of the good nature of the government rather it means the critics are powerless and their criticism is weak.. political prisoners are strong evidence of a society being awake and makes me proud to see how my country is standing up for itself and taking steps towards reform and eventually democracy without any need to import such notions from abroad, aiming for a homegrown version instead..

You ENJOY the fact that there are political prisoners?! WTF yea that's great. People are being imprisoned and tortured for speaking their mind and being opposed to the government. Here that is called freedom of speech and it is a necessity to having a free democratic society. Your "home grown" version of government isn't democracy if people are imprisoned for political beliefs. You sir are sick if you truely are proud of your government imprisoning political dissidents. I will not waste my time speaking to someone who thinks that the torture, imprisonment and killing of political disidents is something to be proud of.

[kraf001]

You ENJOY the fact that there are political prisoners?! WTF yea that's great. People are being imprisoned and tortured for speaking their mind and being opposed to the government. Here that is called freedom of speech and it is a necessity to having a free democratic society. Your "home grown" version of government isn't democracy if people are imprisoned for political beliefs. You sir are sick if you truely are proud of your government imprisoning political dissidents.
I hope one day you at least try to read what is written.. for your own sake!

[Resevoir Hogs]

I hope one day you at least try to read what is written.. for your own sake!

First of all it is EXTREMELY HARD to read what you have written because of your lack of skill in the english language. Either you are using a online translator or you simply do not understand how to form a proper english sentence. If you want to rephrase and explain what this sentence means I'd be more than happy to address it.

I enjoy the fact that there are political prisoners in my country because I believe the lack of such prisoners in a country is not because of the good nature of the government rather it means the critics are powerless and their criticism is weak.. political prisoners are strong evidence of a society being awake and makes me proud to see how my country is standing up for itself and taking steps towards reform and eventually democracy without any need to import such notions from abroad, aiming for a homegrown version instead..

What I could do for my own sake is ignoring retarded sentences that don't make sense. LEARN to speak English if you intend to post on a english site.

[Resevoir Hogs]

How bout you explain to us what you mean by:
"political prisoners are strong evidence of a society being awake and makes me proud to see how my country is standing up for itself and taking steps towards reform and eventually democracy without any need to import such notions from abroad, aiming for a homegrown version instead.."

If I misinterpreted this as you being proud of your country's record of imprisoning, torturing and killing political disidents then I'll retract my original comment.

BTW that was a run-on sentence; learn to use periods!!

[kraf001]

First of all it is EXTREMELY HARD to read what you have written because of your lack of skill in the english language. Either you are using a online translator or you simply do not understand how to form a proper english sentence. If you want to rephrase and explain what this sentence means I'd be more than happy to address it.


What I could do for my own sake is ignoring retarded sentences that don't make sense. LEARN to speak English if you intend to post on a english site.
well I don't really care if you understand it or not as I know even if Shakespeare tried to write what I wrote and even if it was a wallpaper in your room you still wouldn't understand... it is not the improper English that stops you from understanding it...

[Resevoir Hogs]

well I don't really care if you understand it or not as I know even if Shakespeare tried to write what I wrote and even if it was a wallpaper in your room you still wouldn't understand... it is not the improper English that stops you from understanding it...

I have already given you an example of a sentence (an improper run-on sentence) which, according to you, I missed the meaning of. If by that sentence you didn't mean you are proud of your government imprisoning, torturing and killing political disidents, then what did you mean by it. Let me remind you what you wrote.


I enjoy the fact that there are political prisoners in my country because I believe the lack of such prisoners in a country is not because of the good nature of the government rather it means the critics are powerless and their criticism is weak.. political prisoners are strong evidence of a society being awake etc....

English is my first language and I have a far better grasp of it than you, perhaps if you didn't choose to speak in continuous run-on sentences then this misinterpretation of your words might not happen. It would be far easier to read if you simply used PROPER sentences. Screw shakespear and wallpaper, all I'm asking for is you to clarify your remarks, because you claim I misinterpreted them.

[kraf001]

sorry but knowing the level of your grasp in any Iran related matters I don't really care if you get what I wrote or not... it would be more practical teaching my socks how to speak French than having a fruitful conversation about Iran with you.. I rather wait until someone that actually cares about what I wrote demands further explanation... then I’d be more than happy to improve what I wrote!

[Resevoir Hogs]

sorry but knowing the level of your grasp in any Iran related matters I don't really care if you get what I wrote or not... it would be more practical teaching my socks how to speak French than having a fruitful conversation about Iran with you.. I rather wait until someone that actually cares about what I wrote demands further explanation... then I’d be more than happy to improve what I wrote!

The conversation isn't about Iranian politics you tard. It is about you clarifying what you wrote. Now stop pussyfooting around the issue and explain to us what you meant by the sentence I highlighted.

It's very simple, even you should be able to comprehend it. Are you or Aren't you proud of your government's record of imprisoning, torturing and killing political opponents? Because this sentence seems to me to mean that you in fact are.


I enjoy the fact that there are political prisoners in my country because I believe the lack of such prisoners in a country is not because of the good nature of the government rather it means the critics are powerless and their criticism is weak.. political prisoners are strong evidence of a society being awake etc....

That is what I have been trying to clarify for the last few posts. How bout anteing up to what you wrote.

[ed316]

I enjoy the fact that there are political prisoners in my country because I believe the lack of such prisoners in a country is not because of the good nature of the government rather it means the critics are powerless and their criticism is weak.. political prisoners are strong evidence of a society being awake and makes me proud to see how my country is standing up for itself and taking steps towards reform and eventually democracy without any need to import such notions from abroad, aiming for a homegrown version instead..



kraft, So I take it you don't support freedom and dissent. That's what makes a country free. To speak your mind and not be afraid the government is going to arrest or kill you. You don't know what democracy is.

[Resevoir Hogs]

kraft, So I take it you don't support freedom and dissent. That's what makes a country free. To speak your mind and not be afraid the government is going to arrest or kill you. You don't know what democracy is.

That's exactly what I was saying, thank you. Kraf like I previously said, you are a disease on humanity if you're actually proud of Iran's government imprisoning, killing and torturing political dissidents.

[kraf001]

kraft, So I take it you don't support freedom and dissent. That's what makes a country free. To speak your mind and not be afraid the government is going to arrest or kill you. You don't know what democracy is.
sure I support freedom of speech (not to be mistaken with freedom of discrimination) but nothing comes free, the cost of having freedom of speech is not getting paid $85 million from the US.. the cost of such freedom is having ppl who dare to speak their mind even if it means going to jail for it... that is what makes me be proud, sharing the same heritage with Abdi (former 1979 hostage taker), Ganji (active revolutionary in 79), Aghajari, etc... because they speak their mind and want a democratic Iran even if it means spending their life in prison... now if Bush wants to come out and say such noble ppl are under his pay roll then of course I am gonna be angry and just like the activist from the article I am gonna call him an idiot, because he is one!

[ed316]

You just prove that you don't understand freedom and democracy. You just prove that you support the Mullahs. Iran is not a democracy and never will be if the mullahs hold the real power.

[Resevoir Hogs]

sure I support freedom of speech (not to be mistaken with freedom of discrimination) but nothing comes free, the cost of having freedom of speech is not getting paid $85 million from the US.. the cost of such freedom is having ppl who dare to speak their mind even if it means going to jail for it... that is what makes me be proud, sharing the same heritage with Abdi (former 1979 hostage taker), Ganji (active revolutionary in 79), Aghajari, etc... because they speak their mind and want a democratic Iran even if it means spending their life in prison... now if Bush wants to come out and say such noble ppl are under his pay roll then of course I am gonna be angry and just like the activist from the article I am gonna call him an idiot, because he is one!

Where did Bush claim that those people you speak of are on his payroll? Do you have a link to such a statement?

There IS a difference between funding democratic movements in Iran and claiming to be behind every single democratic word in Iran. Frankly I haven't seen Bush do that, not in the article you posted nor anywhere else.

[kraf001]

Where did Bush claim that those people you speak of are on his payroll? Do you have a link to such a statement?

There IS a difference between funding democratic movements in Iran and claiming to be behind every single democratic word in Iran. Frankly I haven't seen Bush do that, not in the article you posted nor anywhere else.
well article is clear in English I suppose... you can read what the activist is saying and he is no ordinary one either, he is a co-worker of Shirin Ebadi (holder of peace Nobel prize)...

the point is if a new strong democratic movement was born in Iran tomorrow it could be easily concluded that they are getting some of that $85 million.. making it easy for Iranian government to counter such movements.. it doesn’t even have to be new, even the old opposition parties can be easily branded as US puppets…

[toad]

Bds...................

[kraf001]

You just prove that you don't understand freedom and democracy. You just prove that you support the Mullahs. Iran is not a democracy and never will be if the mullahs hold the real power.
woooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!!! just because you don't know the figures I named, doesn't mean you should make wild speculations...

[Resevoir Hogs]

well article is clear in English I suppose... you can read what the activist is saying and he is no ordinary one either, he is a co-worker of Shirin Ebadi (holder of peace Nobel prize)...

the point is if a new strong democratic movement was born in Iran tomorrow it could be easily concluded that they are getting some of that $85 million.. making it easy for Iranian government to counter such movements.. it doesn’t even have to be new, even the old opposition parties can be easily branded as US puppets…

Although in the article the activist may "claim" that, it does not make it so. I don't see anything wrong with Bush or the US funding people within Iran who are supporting democracy and freedom. However, I do not see that as being them claiming responsibility for the democratic movement in Iran.

Now I do understand why to some Iranians being funded by the US may look like a bad thing. But if there isn't any (or sufficient levels of) funding coming from within Iran for democratic change then where would the money come from?!

At least the US is using it's money for something of a good principle, supporting democracy. Unlike the past policies of supporting dictatorial regimes to get resources from them.

[Resevoir Hogs]

woooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!!! just because you don't know the figures I named, doesn't mean you should make wild speculations...

The sentence you wrote did sound like you were proud of the Iranian government imprisoning and killing dissidents. Just accept that your sentence was confussing and gave people the wrong impression. The fact more than one person misinterpreted it should tip you off to that fact.

[ed316]

woooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!!! just because you don't know the figures I named, doesn't mean you should make wild speculations...

But you do support the imprisonment of political dissidents. That says it all. i stand by my statement that you don't know what freedom and democracy is.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Karf if that is indeed what you were saying then both I and ED are correct to respond in the way we have. However if that was not what you meant then how bout you clarify that point for us, once and for all.

[kraf001]

Although in the article the activist may "claim" that, it does not make it so. I don't see anything wrong with Bush or the US funding people within Iran who are supporting democracy and freedom. However, I do not see that as being them claiming responsibility for the democratic movement in Iran.
Emad Baghi is a credible man when he says the policy is doing more harm than good then I can't disagree with him... wish you guys could read some of his work!


Now I do understand why to some Iranians being funded by the US may look like a bad thing. But if there isn't any (or sufficient levels of) funding coming from within Iran for democratic change then where would the money come from?!

there are enough rich Iranians to fund such movements... I highly doubt anyone that has a "true" democratic Iran on his agenda would accept any help from US anyways... like it or not this money will either be wasted on unpopular LA based opposition or MEK related groups... most influential democratic movements in Iran consist of Khatami era reformists which means that Bush has already refused cooperating with them…


At least the US is using it's money for something of a good principle, supporting democracy. Unlike the past policies of supporting dictatorial regimes to get resources from them.
looking at the past I'd be more than suspicious about the nature of democracy that US would support in Iran... if the next government is US aligned then we are set for a time travel to 1942 and should look forward to birth of a new Khomeini perhaps this time instead of Islamic, he'll be communist!

[kraf001]

But you do support the imprisonment of political dissidents. That says it all. i stand by my statement that you don't know what freedom and democracy is.
I don't support the act of imprisoning political dissident, how can I support both prisoners and ppl who put them in prison at the same time?... how can I support Emad Baghi and Mullahs at the same time? :cantbeli:

I said I enjoy the existence of political prisoners in Iran... as any Iranian should enjoy having ppl with guts who will say what they think even if they end up in the prison... they are in prison because their criticism is valid and ppl who are being criticized are not strong enough to take them head on... for example Aghajari was poisoned couple of years ago over his open criticism of government, and in his court they ruled on his execution.. they even set a date but protests in university (he was a university lecturer) forced the appeal court to call off the execution and they released him after a short while... now that is what Iranians need, more ppl like Aghajari but imagine if the students were shown that Aghajari had some of that $85 million in his pocket (assuming that Bush made the statement back then).. do you think anyone would have protested then?

[Resevoir Hogs]

I don't support the act of imprisoning political dissident, how can I support both prisoners and ppl who put them in prison at the same time?... how can I support Emad Baghi and Mullahs at the same time? :cantbeli:

I said I enjoy the existence of political prisoners in Iran... as any Iranian should enjoy having ppl with guts who will say what they think even if they end up in the prison... they are in prison because their criticism is valid and ppl who are being criticized are not strong enough to take them head on... for example Aghajari was poisoned couple of years ago over his open criticism of government, and in his court they ruled on his execution.. they even set a date but protests in university (he was a university lecturer) forced the appeal court to call off the execution and they released him after a short while... now that is what Iranians need, more ppl like Aghajari but imagine if the students were shown that Aghajari had some of that $85 million in his pocket (assuming that Bush made the statement back then).. do you think anyone would have protested then?


See what you SHOULD have said is "I appreciate the sacrifice that dissidents make." Not "I enjoy having poltical prisoners in Iran." That sounds like you enjoy them being in jail. Do you see now how we misunderstood your statement?

[ed316]

I don't support the act of imprisoning political dissident, how can I support both prisoners and ppl who put them in prison at the same time?... how can I support Emad Baghi and Mullahs at the same time? :cantbeli:

I said I enjoy the existence of political prisoners in Iran... as any Iranian should enjoy having ppl with guts who will say what they think even if they end up in the prison... they are in prison because their criticism is valid and ppl who are being criticized are not strong enough to take them head on... for example Aghajari was poisoned couple of years ago over his open criticism of government, and in his court they ruled on his execution.. they even set a date but protests in university (he was a university lecturer) forced the appeal court to call off the execution and they released him after a short while... now that is what Iranians need, more ppl like Aghajari but imagine if the students were shown that Aghajari had some of that $85 million in his pocket (assuming that Bush made the statement back then).. do you think anyone would have protested then?

Alright then. Just check your english next time so we aren't confuse.

[kraf001]

See what you SHOULD have said is "I appreciate the sacrifice that dissidents make." Not "I enjoy having poltical prisoners in Iran." That sounds like you enjoy them being in jail. Do you see now how we misunderstood your statement?
that should have been cleared by followed sentences like "the cost of such freedom is having ppl who dare to speak their mind even if it means going to jail for it"... I think you guys quit reading after the first sentence!

[kraf001]

Alright then. Just check your english next time so we aren't confuse.
English is my 4th language and I only came to use it in last 3 years of my life... perhaps the next time you read something written by me (or anybody that doesn't have English as the mother language) you should try more to get the actual meaning... meanwhile I'll try to get better!

[Resevoir Hogs]

that should have been cleared by followed sentences like "the cost of such freedom is having ppl who dare to speak their mind even if it means going to jail for it"... I think you guys quit reading after the first sentence!

Look just make your ideas more clear, use proper sentence structure and don't bittch when people mistake your ideas when they weren't clear in the first place.

[ed316]

English is my 4th language and I only came to use it in last 3 years of my life... perhaps the next time you read something written by me (or anybody that doesn't have English as the mother language) you should try more to get the actual meaning... meanwhile I'll try to get better!

How can I understand it if you guys can't type it? I'm sorry but I'm not a mind reader.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Neither of us are mind reader's, Kraf. We can't find meaning in something that is soo confussing. Just don't be surprised or insulting when people mistake what you say. In the mean time, please look up what a run-on sentence is and attempt to improve your english. I say this because it is the most common mistake you are making and is the biggest barrier in understanding your posts.