Europe frets as Poland heads down populist path

[Asheren]

Europe frets as Poland heads down populist path
By Ralph Atkins, Jan Cienski and George Parker
Published: March 15 2006 02:00 | Last updated: March 15 2006 02:00

Nationalist rhetoric, economic protectionism, tense relations with European partners and now a fierce battle with the country's central bank: Poland's conservative government is realising some of the worst fears of Europe's political and business leaders about Warsaw's new direction.
The battle between Poland's nationalist Law and Justice party government and Leszek Balcerowicz, the central bank president, is the latest incident to spread concern across the EU.
There was widespread consternation following last year's Law and Justice party victory, which propelled the new president, Lech Kaczynski, on to the European stage on the back of a campaign widely perceived to be populist and Eurosceptic.
The new government's first months sent mixed signals. Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz, the prime minister, scored a victory during December's EU budget summit in Brussels by dint of tenacious negotiating. Strained relations with France improved and the economy continued to grow strongly.
At the same time, gaffes such as agriculture minister Krzysztof Jurgiel saying he was too proud to negotiate for a better deal for Poland's sugar beet farmers, an inept battle over VAT rates, and a badly received programme on European energy security undercut the image of Polish competence.
In recent weeks, Law and Justice, led by the combative Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the president's twin brother, has accused doctors, lawyers, judges, prosecutors, judges and journalists of shady ties to outside interests and the communist past. Those attacks, for domestic consumption, aroused little attention abroad.

Full article at:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/98ec0108-b3c8-11da-89c7-0000779e2340.html

This article caused small sstorm in Poland mostly amongst PiS, LPR and Selfdefence politicians. Intresting thing is that Blacerowicz is backed up in this "Bank War" not only by oposition (mostly PO and SLD) but also by economists and UE. He is also supported by former president Lech Walensa who also recently said that PO leader words:" PiS is no more i see only Lepper in first row." are true and PiS is sliding fast towards populism. It is very significant mark showing that peoples connected to "Solidarity" are turning their backs on Kaczynski brothers.

[Mastermind]

So, if "populist" means conservative...it means "Nationalist"? Would that mean , one who believes in protecting and supporting his or her nation? Wow...I'm a "Populist"....

[Asheren]

Nope just teake some social ideas from your (|) without saying from where you want $ for them. Talk a lot about fighting coruption, foregin agents, lustration and how it is all commies fault etc. Add some conservative BS that make father Rydzyk and radical catholics wet. Serve it with bulding new better IV cw and national intrest BS sauce. You got our current government policy.

[toki]

So, if "populist" means conservative...it means "Nationalist"? Would that mean , one who believes in protecting and supporting his or her nation? Wow...I'm a "Populist"....
I suppose you're not a politician. You have no big audience or power. Populism is a way to gain power by getting as many people as possible behind you with great rethorics and more radical, easy understandable views. Your real political values fall behind your promises. Populism is practised by simplifying complex problems and offering easy solutions, and in addition populists often play with the self confidence of their voters, speak they need enemies. People want simple solutions and populists offer that - now, not in distant future. The "greatest" populists were the Nazis. But is has not much to do with your political compass. There can be leftist populists or far right populists.
But they all have one thing in common, they are big speakers.

[Mastermind]

I'm an anti-populist...I absolutely hated Bill Clinton...who by your definition above, was a Populist...am I right?

[caridon]

I'm an anti-populist...I absolutely hated Bill Clinton...who by your definition above, was a Populist...am I right?

Depends on your point of wiew.

clinton wasent realy inte the "simple solutions for complex problems" style.
so on that acount he was not a populist.

However he was a good speaker.

Now bush fits the bill much clearer.

/C

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

Ok, I am confused. I understand that the Kaczynski brothers are assholes. But what they are doing, is it good or bad for Polish national interests?

[RS_Leo1A5]

"Nationalist"? Would that mean , one who believes in protecting and supporting his or her nation?
Nope, that's a "Patriot".
A "Nationalist" believes all other countries but his own are "inferior", "primitive" or "enemies" (combinations possible). Therefore, in his eyes friendly coexistence and equal cooperation are impossible. Instead, his country (and rightfully so since it's superior!) should dominate and guide/rule all other countries, forcefully if need be.

Basically, nationalism is like racism but concerning countries.

[daily666]

Ok, I am confused. I understand that the Kaczynski brothers are assholes....

x2

all they do is fight and threaten everyone, they fight (chronological order):

1) Opposition
2) Lawyers
3) Journalists
4) Bankers (mainly the Central Bank smthg like FED)
5) ... waiting who's next in their crosshairs

all they do is ruin what we've menaged to get (investors, GDP growth, low inflation) in the last couple of years. They would do much better by not spoiling what is going on. Now everyone is afraid what's gonna happen next. To me the ruling coalition (PiS/LPR/Selfdefence) are a bunch of a**holes.

[Pan_Grzegorz]

Ok, I am confused. I understand that the Kaczynski brothers are assholes. But what they are doing, is it good or bad for Polish national interests?

Their government definately won't be very good for Poland, but shouldn't be tragic either, so for Poles usual mess, just like every other government after 89.
The difference is that they often are not "nice enough" for foreign partners, so they are strongly criticized by the media, both foreign and Polish, however for Poles the most important is that they don't have any serious program for economy, so we will probably still have 3-4% GDP growth, which in current situation is pathetic - should be 6-8%.

[cut]

I'm an anti-populist...I absolutely hated Bill Clinton...who by your definition above, was a Populist...am I right?

yes, third way advocates like Bill Clinton and Tony Blair are populists

[RS_Leo1A5]

From a German point of view it is very strange that after all the support Germany gave to Poland's becoming a EU member the Poles elect a government with a very publicly portrayed deep-seated mistrust and enmity towards Germany and the EU.

[Pan_Grzegorz]

From a German point of view it is very strange that after all the support Germany gave to Poland's becoming a EU member the Poles elect a government with a very publicly portrayed deep-seated mistrust and enmity towards Germany and the EU.

I've already seen such comments from Germans. Do you guys serious think that voters in Poland make their decisions based on a fact If a leader of some party loves Germany or not ?
Twins were elected mostly because last left wing government was very corrupted, they understood that, made fight against corruption one of their most important issues, aded some stupid promises for piseants and other such groups and that gave them victory.

BTW EU enlargement is good for Germany too, check German export to Poland and its growth rate. That would never happen If wasn't good also for Western Europe.

[haschmich]

Do you guys serious think that voters in Poland make their decisions based on a fact If a leader of some party loves Germany or not ?

BTW EU enlargement is good for Germany too, check German export to Poland and its growth rate. That would never happen If wasn't good also for Western Europe.

1. YES, polish voters loved the anti-german rhetoric during the vote campaigning. why would the politicians do it otherwise??

2. HALT! the by far biggest advantage of EU membership clearly has Poland, not the old members. dont you try to make it all look even - thats just pathetic. i also am pro polish eu membership, but get the facts straight! the big advantage for the old eu members are in the far future so taking those in account today is nonserious.

[Pan_Grzegorz]

1. YES, polish voters loved the anti-german rhetoric during the vote campaigning. why would the politicians do it otherwise??

Which anti-German rethoric ? Any proofs or just usual stuff spread by your anti-Polish media.
Besides how the hell you know what Polish voters "love" ?




2. HALT!


Hande hoch !


dont you try to make it all look even - thats just pathetic.


What ? I told you, check the export from "old EU" to "new EU" or even only the growth of that export - that alone much more than these cash from EU for new members, which is usually wasted on stupid donations for peasants.

[Asheren]

In some part of society ani-german sentiments are still strong but this are mostly old peoples who lived throu nightmare of WW2 and were feed by anty-german propaganda in commie times. This are also young nationalists who hate germans but they also hate russians, muslims and (insert random nation here). Problem is that from this part of society comes most disciplined electorate. Amongst peoples 60 years old and older frequency can reach even 70-80% while in 18-30 only 20-30% vote. In Poland two largest poverty groups are young families and poorly educated peoples. Many economists claim that young peoples situation is bad because government(all political options) intentionaly mantain pro-old social politic to get this at last small part of this most disciplined part of our electorate.
PiS won mostly because of two facts.
1. Black PR they exploited deep rooted phobias and complexes from various part of our society. Hatred for Germans, Fear of foregin capital etc.
2. Victory for PO was almost certain soo large part of their electorate didn't vote because it was certain.

Actualy fault for UE uneven benefits is on both sides because of protectionism. Many decision from economical view point were completly idiotic and aimed only to protect certain branches (usualy unatractive and inefficient) of their economy. To be exact to protect peoples employed there officialy, unoficialy to protect various lobbies intrests.

Here is another article that is partialy connected with this UE problem.


One state's nationalism is another's posturing
Published: March 16 2006 02:00 | Last updated: March 16 2006 02:00
http://news.ft.com/c.gif
Alarm bells are ringing in Brussels at the rise of economic nationalism across the European Union. This month the main offender is Poland but last month it was France and, before that, Italy and Spain were guilty of threatening to raise new barriers to the free movement of capital across their borders.

The fear is of a domino effect that will spread across the EU and steadily undermine the authority of the European Commission as the guardian of the single market and its common competition policy.
Coming on top of last year's annus horribilis for the EU, when the French and Dutch voted No to the constitutional treaty, a pandemic of protectionism is the last thing the organisation needs.
But there is also a danger of exaggerating the threat. Is there a serious trend to unravel the single market, or are we simply seeing the classic manoeuvring of weak national governments pandering to fickle electorates?
There are differences between the nationalism of big member states and of smaller ones, as there are between the old member states and the new.
Take the contrasting cases of France and Poland. On the face of it, they are behaving in an alarmingly similar fashion. Three years ago, before Poland became a full EU member, commentators in France asked: Who lost Poland? President Jacques Chirac had told the new member states it was a good time to "shut up" over Iraq.
"Today the question is rather: why are the Poles copying the French?" says Dominique Moïsi, senior adviser at the French Institute for International Relations. "In their arrogance and their tough negotiating tactics they seem to be behaving like a pupil of France in its worst years."

Full article at:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4cfec338-b491-11da-bd61-0000779e2340.html

[Pille1234]

Thanks for the insight Asheren.

[Pan_Grzegorz]

1. Black PR they exploited deep rooted phobias and complexes from various part of our society. Hatred for Germans, Fear of foregin capital etc.


Asheren - I agree with most of your post, but could you explain me the part about "Hatred for Germans".

[Asheren]

Hatret might be a bit to big word Germanophobia would be propably better term.

[toki]

Hatret might be a bit to big word Germanophobia would be propably better term.
No clear thinking german thinks every or (better) most poles hate germans in general. But facing an anti german sentiment is nothing new for most germans when abroad. You are used to it and if you have a little bit of brain left you don't take it personal.

But as a matter of fact populists are able to canalize sentiments and blow it out of proportion. That's the way it is.

[Mastermind]

I do not understand "Germanophobia" sentiment among Europeans. Germans have well proven they are never going back to the "old ways" and they are progressive, generous and quite industrious....what is the problem - specifically - other EU people have with Germans?

[toki]

I do not understand "Germanophobia" sentiment among Europeans. Germans have well proven they are never going back to the "old ways" and they are progressive, generous and quite industrious....what is the problem - specifically - other EU people have with Germans?
OK i'm german so i'm probably the wrong person to ask. But i think it's not that bad. And actually i think it is nothing rational at all. It's just in the heads of some people and it won't go away. Your not in the position to change it.

I for example had weird moments in the Netherlands. An example: Dutch friends needed to tell a bartender to give me my change after i talked german with a friend. He had obviously a problem with me being german, but it's is really no big deal. It's in the heads of some people. You can just act normal and don't think about it. I have friends who had the same in england (f****in krauts :lol:). My cousin had a problem with the family of his polish girlfriend - Wedding in poland and an uncle didn't want to share a table with "the german". etc etc., but it's not that big issue. That are singular incidents.

I think americans face sentiments in other countries, too. But you should just not make the mistake and let it be your personal problem and accuse everyone around you.

[Pan_Grzegorz]

No clear thinking german thinks every or (better) most poles hate germans in general. But facing an anti german sentiment is nothing new for most germans when abroad.

According to official polls 32% of Poles like Germans, 33% don't like, the rest is neutral, so It's not bad - much better than Russians and let's say these generally not very popular nations. German opinion about Poles ? I would be really surprised If that was better. Last time I heard Poles were only better than Gypsies.

I noticed that German media lately have been playing the "victim card" in relations with Poland screaming "anti-Germanism" all the time without any serious reason.
What the hell next ? We will attack German radio station like in 39 ???

[Mastermind]

It happens that I believe the last salvation for the western civilization will be Germany/Poland and the Balkans....I have complex reasons for that belief. But, folks really need to start pulling together if we are going to get our fat our of the Mulsim fire.

[XShipRider]

Depends on your point of wiew.

clinton wasent realy inte the "simple solutions for complex problems" style.
so on that acount he was not a populist.

However he was a good speaker.

Now bush fits the bill much clearer.

/C
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=populist

I guess that would depend on which dictionary you use. Bush goes
against the grain on so many issues he can hardly be deemed
"populist." Popular and populist should not be confused. I'm not
questioning his leadership just his populism.

The founders of the US feared populist government, read: majority rule,
because they saw it as mob rule, nothing more. Thus we have a republic
form of government to keep mob rule at bay.

Personal belief - Europeans are losing their identity through establishment
of the EU. Maybe this is what the Poles want to avoid. Keep in mind, I'm
a US citizen who has never been to Europe. I only have the Internet to
keep me informed of EU issues. Lord knows you get nothing from any
of the so-called mainstream media.