Any Pictures or information of hired Soldiers in Iraq?

[HELEX]

Foreign Companies use mercenaries from Sandline Intl. and others as Bodygards or to protect certain Buildings/Pump station and so on. Are there any Pictures or sth. of these Forces?

[Argyll]

Try calling them Private Military Companies,or Security companies and you might get,a little more respect in the answer!!
There are quite a few forum members who work in the Private sector,and some who will do so in the future ;) ,calling the Mercenaries may not go down too well!

Also I think you may find that they may approach the job with the same proffesionalism as what the SOF community does,and they'll keep as low a profile as possible..

However there was some pics of a Serbian called "Misha" who was a sniper in the Jugoslav Army who was a bodyguard for some Iraqi,and his pics were posted a few days ago

[Ratamacue]

I don't know, TP may well like the idea of being called a "mercenary." ;)

[Argyll]

I don't know, TP may well like the idea of being called a "mercenary." ;)

I wouldn't bet on it Rat!! ;)

[ibstolidude]

Foreign Companies use mercenaries from Sandline Intl. and others as Bodygards or to protect certain Buildings/Pump station and so on. Are there any Pictures or sth. of these Forces?

There are ALOT of pictures on this site of PMC in various locations from various companies. Plenty of Contractors. Perhaps if they are not identified to you, it would because they choose not to be.

Other than that good luck.

[HELEX]

My english is far away from being perfect, so I was thinking mercenaries was the right Word.... No offense.

[Tributal]

FYI, in many countries it's illegal to be a mercenary. However, it's perfectly legal to be an employee of a PMC. Hence all the fun titles such as independent contractors, civilian logistic support, and whatnot. Just leave the M-word be. ;)

[EYE SPY]

how about we call a spade a spade, and forget this nonsensical PC-Crap.

After all, isnt it Political Correctness that most military-minded people rail against.

[Tributal]

how about we call a spade a spade, and forget this nonsensical PC-Crap.

After all, isnt it Political Correctness that most military-minded people rail against.True, though one occupation is illegal (and in many cases has been for quite some time) and one is not, so it really isn't about being PC.

The thing is that a PMCs doesn't just sign up anyone and bring'em on board. They verify that you have military background and that you are suitable for the job at hand - loner psychos need not apply. The PMC also does their work on a contracting basis where they apply for work and therefore has the opportunity to scrutinize between jobs that are "good" (such as helping set up a nations army or providing security for a company) and jobs that are "bad" (slaughtering innocent civilians etc.)

Mercenaries on the other hand are often single individuals that will go were there's money to be made, or just for the thrill, but who often don't care about why there's fighting. A good example would be the Balkans where individuals would show up and join either side just for the thrill of it.

[Trident-za]

I discovered today that it is illegal for South Africans to be members of any "mercenary/security company" etc. Apparently there are several South Africans currently in Iraq.... and the governement is planning on charging them all for "criminal activities".

[Argyll]

Another slant on this Eye Spy is that most these PMC's are not employed by the Iraqi's,but the USG,their role is not that of a fighting unit,but more of a Close Protection/Security role,they can however aquit themselves quite admireably if needs must!!

2ndly most PMC's are very close knit squads who have "worked " as a squad for sometime,perhaps from parent units,the last thing you want in a team is a guy you know absoloute nothing about,will this guy check your six,are his drills slicker than Castrol GTX?,does this guy know what you eat for breakfast.It's all about mutual trust and respect.......the exact opposite of being a mercenary,where nobody really gives a sh*t where you've come from or your credentials

[Tributal]

I discovered today that it is illegal for South Africans to be members of any "mercenary/security company" etc. Apparently there are several South Africans currently in Iraq.... and the governement is planning on charging them all for "criminal activities".Ouch.

[EYE SPY]

Whatever you want to call it, it is a dangerous trend.

PMC's and their personnel are accountable only to their direct employer, The Pentagon.

These organizations do not have any oversight, accountability or authorization from the Congress.

FYI, Congress is the leading institution that allocates funds, passes laws and declares wars.

At least, they used to. :(

[Trident-za]

Whatever you want to call it, it is a dangerous trend.

PMC's and their personnel are accountable only to their direct employer, The Pentagon.

These organizations do not have any oversight, accountability or authorization from the Congress.

FYI, Congress is the leading institution that allocates funds, passes laws and declares wars.

At least, they used to. :(

I suspect that this is why such activieties are illegal in South Africa - too many "skilled" people have been plying their trade in places like Angola/Sierra Leone/Congo. This is done for the highest bidder, not necessarily for the "morally right". Iraq is a different story, but the point remains the same.... these companies are not always under government control. Imagine if some really rich South American druglord hired a "security company" consisting of delta/sas types to help him out? Not likely, but its a worry for governments.....

[Tributal]

Whatever you want to call it, it is a dangerous trend.

PMC's and their personnel are accountable only to their direct employer, The Pentagon.Depends. Few (if any) of the PMC's are directly employed by the Pentagon. I would guess that most PMC's in Iraq are there as protection for other companies (such as KBR of Halliburton - though I know KBR convoys get U.S. military protection) and as such they're not there to directly help with the war effort but rather with the rebuild and logistic support. Therefore PMC's are not replacing troops and they are not performing combat operations in place of regular troops.

I'm sure a lot of people doesn't like the fact that the U.S. military is providing convoy protection to non-government entities, and they would be even more upset if the U.S. military handled ALL the protection of these companies - that's where the PMC's come in.


These organizations do not have any oversight, accountability or authorization from the Congress.And they shouldn't have, unless they replace military troops.

[Trident-za]

Tributal, what you say is true, but your are only looking at the Iraq situation. I KNOW that Executive Outcomes had, and used, helicopter gunships in both Angola and Sierra Leonne. They were heavily invovled in combat operations. This is the danger.... in places other than Iraq where the moral lines are blurred, security companies can be, and are, hired by the highest bidder, and not just for convoy protection. Iraq is not the whole world.... and there are "security companys" employed all over. Some are there for the right reasons, some are not. It's a difficult thing for governments to deal with.

[Tributal]

Tributal, what you say is true, but your are only looking at the Iraq situation.Yes, because that was what EYE SPY's argument was about - the lack of U.S. government control over CMP's. Since the U.S. doesn't use PMC's in place of regular troops there is no need for congressional oversight etc. However, let's say that the U.S. chose to use a PMC instead of sending the Marines to Haiti, then such oversight would be needed.



I KNOW that Executive Outcomes had, and used, helicopter gunships in both Angola and Sierra Leonne. They were heavily invovled in combat operations. This is the danger.... in places other than Iraq where the moral lines are blurred, security companies can be, and are, hired by the highest bidder, and not just for convoy protection. Iraq is not the whole world.... and there are "security companys" employed all over. Some are there for the right reasons, some are not. It's a difficult thing for governments to deal with.I agree, however my point was that most governments will not employ a PMC in place of their own military. The U.S. for example would not employ a PMC to fight it's own wars.

That there are PMC's who are hired by local warlords etc is a separate issue where (as you correctly stated) a PMC is taking the place of regular units. There are cases where a contry's militariy has begun a revolution and the country's leader contracts PMC's to bring back control. However, whether or not the leader is good or bad is a separate discussion (some leaders seem good but turn out to be bad - only history will tell.)

In Angola and Sierra Leone - who did the PMC's fight for? More often than not PMC's prefer to work for someone who can and will pay them (as opposed to some mercenaries that are just in it for the "glory") - this usually means that whomever they work/fight for is established financially, and that often limits it to goverments or big business.

We might think that it's wrong for a PMC to get involved in a certain conflict, whereas "the good guys" in the country actually need the help from the PMC. It's easy for us outsiders to criticize a PMC, but they wouldn't be there if someone didn't want them there. Don't know if my point is getting across...

[Trident-za]

I see what you are saying, and I agree.

The US clearly wouldn't hire a PMC in place of their own military. How about some place like Haiti or Zimbabwe or Liberia? Would they? Damn, imagine if al-queda could get a group of disillusioned ex-SF troops to fight with them.....

To some extent I think we are talking at cross-purposes - you are alluding to the Iraq situation, I'm talking about "generally". I also think that the Iraq situation is to some extent unique, and that PMCs are needed there.

[EYE SPY]

Tributal,

What do you think is gonna happen if say one day, a few rent-a-cops get in a firefight, and one of them does something extremely stupid. Perhaps a dozen or so civilians get caught in the crossfire.

Who do you think is gonna get the blame, do you think the Iraqi's, or any government in the world is gonna accept that, these guys were not American personnel. Please. Having these people in Iraq is just a liability more than anything else.

Why shouldnt the government assign US troops as security for these reconstruction teams. isnt the US in the peacekeeping and reconstruction stage now? If so, it is a non-issue if US troops are providing security for KBR, Halliburton or whatever.

Furthermore, there have been rumors recently, infact posted on this very board, that PMC "contractors" have been providing security to American Lt. Colonels, and other officers.

It all stinks to me.

[Trident-za]

Tributal,

What do you think is gonna happen if say one day, a few rent-a-cops get in a firefight, and one of them does something extremely stupid. Perhaps a dozen or so civilians get caught in the crossfire.

Who do you think is gonna get the blame, do you think the Iraqi's, or any government in the world is gonna accept that, these guys were not American personnel. Please. Having these people in Iraq is just a liability more than anything else.

Why shouldnt the government assign US troops as security for these reconstruction teams. isnt the US in the peacekeeping and reconstruction stage now? If so, it is a non-issue if US troops are providing security for KBR, Halliburton or whatever.

Furthermore, there have been rumors recently, infact posted on this very board, that PMC "contractors" have been providing security to American Lt. Colonels, and other officers.

It all stinks to me.

Hmmm... I'd never thought about it from that perspective. But, if all PMCs were removed from Iraq, the military requirement from the US would go up a lot. Would this be politically acceptable? (Curious)

[EYE SPY]

if we are really in it, to win it. so to speak, the political consequences of a few extra companies of infantry for security of these private logistics companies is trivial.

NOTE, im not saying anything against organizations setting up trash collection, or road maintenence or some other engineering or government service type operation. By all means the army shouldnt have to rely on its civil engineers, legal eagles and civil affairs personnel to set up Iraqi sewage systems, civil law and reopening schools.

but please, there is no reason that there should be PMC personnell running around with guns. leave that to the Army and Marines

[Tributal]

Tributal,

What do you think is gonna happen if say one day, a few rent-a-cops get in a firefight, and one of them does something extremely stupid. Perhaps a dozen or so civilians get caught in the crossfire.

Who do you think is gonna get the blame, do you think the Iraqi's, or any government in the world is gonna accept that, these guys were not American personnel.To stay with Iraq for argument's sake - seeing as though innocent civilians get shot on a daily basis, or get killed by local factions in car-bombs etc., I really think that's a non-issue. Kinda like how U.S. troops killed a bunch of Iraqi police officers by mistake a few months ago. Though the war is won the fighting isn't over - and **** happens.



Please. Having these people in Iraq is just a liability more than anything else.I disagree.



Why shouldnt the government assign US troops as security for these reconstruction teams. isnt the US in the peacekeeping and reconstruction stage now? If so, it is a non-issue if US troops are providing security for KBR, Halliburton or whatever.Since mom and dad John Q Public doesn't like the idea of their son/daughter getting shot in some far-away land while providing protection for a private company that is raking in money from government contracts this remains an issue.

People can get behind the forcefull removal of a tyrant, and they can get behind bringing peace to a foreign country. But it is very hard to get people to get behind using their sons & daughters as protection for private companies.

Also, given the amount of money these companies (such as KBR) earn they can afford their own protection - hence the use of PMC's. The PMC's are there for protection, not for combat. The U.S. military is better used trying to help bring peace to the country than to worry about protecting some civil engineer who is getting paid $10,000/month to coordinate the re-wiring of the Baghdad phone system.



Furthermore, there have been rumors recently, infact posted on this very board, that PMC "contractors" have been providing security to American Lt. Colonels, and other officers.Well, you can't fault the PMC's for the U.S. military hiring them to protect their officers. If you want to criticize anyone it should be the military/government.

[Argyll]

I seriously think you have a very limited knowledge of PMC's and their employees.
I also believe you're underestimating them too especially the work they're doing in Iraq right now

If there was no PMC's operating in Iraq right now,the place would be in an even bigger shambles than what it is,the Coalition would be stretched so thin that casualties would be rising faster than a "*****" at 6 am!!
You would have to effectivley double the amount of troops there,to provide protection for Contactors and the likes during the reconstructing of Iraq,the Army is not a protective force it's a fighting force,you want protection,then this is when you need UN troops.........lots of them.

[California Joe]

if we are really in it, to win it. so to speak, the political consequences of a few extra companies of infantry for security of these private logistics companies is trivial.

NOTE, im not saying anything against organizations setting up trash collection, or road maintenence or some other engineering or government service type operation. By all means the army shouldnt have to rely on its civil engineers, legal eagles and civil affairs personnel to set up Iraqi sewage systems, civil law and reopening schools.

but please, there is no reason that there should be PMC personnell running around with guns. leave that to the Army and Marines

The people who actually know because they ARE involved may want to correct me but from what I have seen the security contractors are always highly trained former military. Mostly spec ops combat veterans. Older men who know their jobs very well and don't get rattled easily. Total professionals. I believe that they have a maturity and a focus that may not necessarily be present in an 18 year old marine or army grunt that doesn't want to be there and sees terrorists on every street corner. You pay for pros.

[Tributal]

I see what you are saying, and I agree.

The US clearly wouldn't hire a PMC in place of their own military. How about some place like Haiti or Zimbabwe or Liberia? Would they?I'm not the person to ask about U.S. foreign and/or military policy, but I doubt they would.



Damn, imagine if al-queda could get a group of disillusioned ex-SF troops to fight with them.....Well, I doubt they could get a PMC to work for them, but individual mercenaries is whole different ball park.



To some extent I think we are talking at cross-purposes - you are alluding to the Iraq situation, I'm talking about "generally".I agree. Since EYE SPY referred to Iraq I felt that it would be best to continue the argument in regards to that situation. However, I'll readily agree that there are PMC's out there that have chosen the wrong battles, but it's hard for us to speak on why they chose this way or that way.

[Tributal]

The people who actually know because they ARE involved may want to correct me but from what I have seen the security contractors are always highly trained former military. Mostly spec ops combat veterans. Older men who know their jobs very well and don't get rattled easily. Total professionals. I believe that they have a maturity and a focus that may not necessarily be present in an 18 year old marine or army grunt that doesn't want to be there and sees terrorists on every street corner. You pay for pros.I would have to agree with this statement. There are PMC's out there who should close shop ASAP, but at the same time there are PMC's out there who really know their ****. With good performance comes a good reputation, and based on that reputation more and more potential employees will come. The really good PMC's can therefore have their pick of whom to hire. They can weed out the 18-year old hot shots and keep the 35 to 40-year old (or whatever age criteria they use (if any)) SpecOps-veterans.

[Trident-za]

This is why I say Iraq is a bit different to the "general" issue of PMCs. I doubt that Iraq could be stabilized without the use of PMCs. As an older guy who reads the bull**** written by gung-ho people on this forum everyday I'm quite pleased that the PMCs are in a position to hire only experienced military personnel.

On the issue of PMCs in Iraq I agree with Argyll and CJ. Generally speaking, and especially with regards to Africa, I have major doubts, though..... and I can understand the reluctance of some governments to condone this kind of activity. How many Nazis from the Waffen SS were used as "consultants" by various companies in years past for activities that weren't especially "kosher" ?? (forgive the example).

[TriggerPuller]

I don't know, TP may well like the idea of being called a "mercenary." ;) No Iam not a Mercenary! I dont take money to help overthrow some faraway Government. I take money to protect interests vital to the interests of the US. As for the rest of this I will stay out but this does seem to be one of the more mature discussions I have seen in a while.

TP

[Trident-za]

Trigger Puller wrote:
As for the rest of this I will stay out but this does seem to be one of the more mature discussions I have seen in a while.


Agreed.... no flaming so far - this what this forum should be about - a genuine discussion of issues.

On a side issue, TP - you are Sgt. Rock from SOCNET? I enjoy reading your posts :)

[Tributal]

As for the rest of this I will stay out but this does seem to be one of the more mature discussions I have seen in a while.Might have something to do with at least two of us who've posted back and forth being a "little" older. ;)

Could you tell us anything (without violating opsec/persec) about your background prior to getting into this field? No is a perfectly legitimate answer.

[TriggerPuller]

As for the rest of this I will stay out but this does seem to be one of the more mature discussions I have seen in a while.Might have something to do with at least two of us who've posted back and forth being a "little" older. ;)

Could you tell us anything (without violating opsec/persec) about your background prior to getting into this field? No is a perfectly legitimate answer. How about this: 8 years USMC AD. Top graduate at Executive Security International(bodyguard school) 600 hours of training and schooling and certified as a CPS (certified protection specialist)recognized by the Colorado Board of Higher Education. Rangemaster/instructor for an indoor target range. Security consultant and instructor for a PMC(95% former SpecOps of some sort).United States Jui Jitsu champion (sponsored by the Kodokan of Japan) and currently instructor in Filipino Martial Arts. And a few other things!!

TP

[TriggerPuller]

Trigger Puller wrote:
As for the rest of this I will stay out but this does seem to be one of the more mature discussions I have seen in a while.


Agreed.... no flaming so far - this what this forum should be about - a genuine discussion of issues.

On a side issue, TP - you are Sgt. Rock from SOCNET? I enjoy reading your posts :)Yep that be me!! Thanks.
take care

TP

[Tributal]

Could you tell us anything (without violating opsec/persec) about your background prior to getting into this field? No is a perfectly legitimate answer. How about this: 8 years USMC AD. Top graduate at Executive Security International(bodyguard school) 600 hours of training and schooling and certified as a CPS (certified protection specialist)recognized by the Colorado Board of Higher Education. Rangemaster/instructor for an indoor target range. Security consultant and instructor for a PMC(95% former SpecOps of some sort).United States Jui Jitsu champion (sponsored by the Kodokan of Japan) and currently instructor in Filipino Martial Arts. And a few other things!!Thank you very much. I kinda expected a polite no. ;)

[Ratamacue]

As for the rest of this I will stay out but this does seem to be one of the more mature discussions I have seen in a while.Might have something to do with at least two of us who've posted back and forth being a "little" older. ;)

Could you tell us anything (without violating opsec/persec) about your background prior to getting into this field? No is a perfectly legitimate answer. How about this: 8 years USMC AD. Top graduate at Executive Security International(bodyguard school) 600 hours of training and schooling and certified as a CPS (certified protection specialist)recognized by the Colorado Board of Higher Education. Rangemaster/instructor for an indoor target range. Security consultant and instructor for a PMC(95% former SpecOps of some sort).United States Jui Jitsu champion (sponsored by the Kodokan of Japan) and currently instructor in Filipino Martial Arts. And a few other things!!

TP

Pah, I can top that. ;)

[Argyll]

As for the rest of this I will stay out but this does seem to be one of the more mature discussions I have seen in a while.Might have something to do with at least two of us who've posted back and forth being a "little" older. ;)

Could you tell us anything (without violating opsec/persec) about your background prior to getting into this field? No is a perfectly legitimate answer. How about this: 8 years USMC AD. Top graduate at Executive Security International(bodyguard school) 600 hours of training and schooling and certified as a CPS (certified protection specialist)recognized by the Colorado Board of Higher Education. Rangemaster/instructor for an indoor target range. Security consultant and instructor for a PMC(95% former SpecOps of some sort).United States Jui Jitsu champion (sponsored by the Kodokan of Japan) and currently instructor in Filipino Martial Arts. And a few other things!!

TP

Pah, I can top that. ;)


Rat,I know you're trying to inject a bit of Humour,but DON'T!! This is not the place for silly comments,I have a huge amount of respect for TP,and I think you should be a little courteous in his Qualifications,and to the Line of work the men in this profession do,this is no Fokin game for immature kids,
This is a very good topic,you all can learn something here from guys who work for PMC's!!

[Ratamacue]

Rat,I know you're trying to inject a bit of Humour,but DON'T!! This is not the place for silly comments,I have a huge amount of respect for TP,and I think you should be a little courteous in his Qualifications,and to the Line of work the men in this profession do,this is no Fokin game for immature kids,
This is a very good topic,you all can learn something here from guys who work for PMC's!!

I'm listening to the topic entirely. I made a little comment. Don't get your panties in a bunch, man. The reason I said that was mainly with being impressed in the qualifications. I hardly see what I said as being disrespectful. But anyway, back to the topic.

[Argyll]

Rat,I know you're trying to inject a bit of Humour,but DON'T!! This is not the place for silly comments,I have a huge amount of respect for TP,and I think you should be a little courteous in his Qualifications,and to the Line of work the men in this profession do,this is no Fokin game for immature kids,
This is a very good topic,you all can learn something here from guys who work for PMC's!!

I'm listening to the topic entirely. I made a little comment. Don't get your panties in a bunch, man. The reason I said that was mainly with being impressed in the qualifications. I hardly see what I said as being disrespectful. But anyway, back to the topic.

there's a time and a place for humour,when a bona fide High speed operator provides part of his resume,having someone who's not walked the walk,make light out of it I don't find funny at all,and knowing TP I doubt he does either!!,all it takes for a topic as interesting as this one to get ridiculed is a small inuendo,and then you get the clowns come along and start to diss the mans chosen profession,I know the smiley was added to show humour ,but the very nature of these PMC's and their roles is not to be scoffed at,or poked fun at,perhaps when your resume parallels TP's then instead of "skull foking " you he might laugh along with it?
being in a PMC is not a game,it's a high risk proffesion and they bleed when hit..........just a little respect can can gain you lots here ;)

Just my 2p's worth rat

[James]

The people who actually know because they ARE involved may want to correct me but from what I have seen the security contractors are always highly trained former military. Mostly spec ops combat veterans. Older men who know their jobs very well and don't get rattled easily. Total professionals. I believe that they have a maturity and a focus that may not necessarily be present in an 18 year old marine or army grunt that doesn't want to be there and sees terrorists on every street corner. You pay for pros.

That is correct Joe.

[seal2]

I want to join a private military company operating in Iraq. Anyone out There to help?

[California Joe]

1st of all, nice handle. Judging by the question you just asked in a nearly 3 year old thread I'm thinking it may be misleading to put it politely.

If you have the quals to work as a PMC then you should probably PM Argyll or James with specific questions.

If you don't have the quals and are asking because the idea of being a PMC makes you pitch a tent in your SpongeBob Squarepants jammies then use the search function.

[ShotOver]

Joe mate, you are too harsh. I wear spongebob squarepants jammies. Nothing wrong with it.