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Silent_Hunter
03-16-2006, 12:53 AM
The Mass Killings in Indonesia After 40 Years
by John Roosa and Joseph Nevins
www.dissidentvoice.org (http://www.dissidentvoice.org/)
October 31, 2005

“One of the worst mass murders of the twentieth century.” That was how a CIA publication described the killings that began forty years ago this month in Indonesia. It was one of the few statements in the text that was correct. The 300-page text was devoted to blaming the victims of the killings -- the supporters of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI) -- for their own deaths. The PKI had supposedly attempted a coup d’état and a nationwide uprising called the September 30th Movement (which, for some unknown reason, began on October 1). The mass murder of hundreds of thousands of the party’s supporters over subsequent months was thus a natural, inevitable, and justifiable reaction on the part of those non-communists who felt threatened by the party’s violent bid for state power. The killings were part of the “backfire” referred to in the title: Indonesia -- 1965: The Coup that Backfired. The author of this 1968 report, later revealed to be Helen Louise Hunter, acknowledged the massive scale of the killings only to dismiss the necessity for any detailed consideration of them. She concentrated on proving that the PKI was responsible for the September 30th Movement while consigning the major issue, the anti-PKI atrocities, to a brief, offhanded comment. [1]

Hunter’s CIA report accurately expressed the narrative told by the Indonesian army commanders as they organized the slaughter. That narrative rendered the September 30th Movement -- a disorganized, small-scale affair that lasted about 48 hours and resulted in a grand total of 12 deaths, among them six army generals -- into the greatest evil ever to befall Indonesia. [2] The commander of the army, Major General Suharto, justified his acquisition of emergency powers in late 1965 and early 1966 by insisting that the September 30th Movement was a devious conspiracy by the PKI to seize state power and murder all of its enemies. Suharto’s martial law regime detained some 1.5 million people as political prisoners (for varying lengths of time), and accused them of being “directly or indirectly involved in the September 30th Movement.” The hundreds of thousands of people shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, or starved to death were labeled perpetrators, or would-be perpetrators of atrocities, just as culpable for the murder of the army generals as the handful of people who were truly guilty.

The September 30th Movement was Suharto’s Reichstag fire: a pretext for destroying the communist party and seizing state power. As with the February 1933 fire in the German parliament that Hitler used to create a hysterical, crisis-filled atmosphere, the September 30th Movement was exaggerated by Suharto’s clique of officers until it assumed the proportions of a wild, vicious, supernatural monster. The army whipped up an anti-communist propaganda campaign from the early days of October 1965: “the PKI” had castrated and tortured the seven army officers it had abducted in Jakarta, danced naked and slit the bodies of the army officers with a hundred razor blades, drawn up hit lists, dug thousands of ditches around the country to hold countless corpses, stockpiled guns imported from China, and so on. The army banned many newspapers and put the rest under army censorship. It was precisely this work of the army’s psychological warfare specialists that created the conditions in which the mass murder of “the PKI” seemed justified.

The question as to whether or not the PKI actually organized the September 30th Movement is important only because the Suharto regime made it important. Otherwise, it is irrelevant. Even if the PKI had nothing whatsoever to do with the movement, the army generals would have blamed the party for it. As it was, they made their case against the PKI largely on the basis of the transcripts of the interrogations of those movement participants who hadn’t already been summarily executed. Given that the army used torture as standard operating procedure for interrogations, the statements of the suspects cannot be trusted. Hunter’s CIA report, primarily based on those transcripts, is as reliable as an Inquisition text on witchcraft.

The PKI as a whole was clearly not responsible for the September 30th Movement. The party’s three million members did not participate in it. If they had, it would not have been such a small-scale affair. The party chairman, D.N. Aidit, however, does seem to have played a key role. He was summarily and secretly executed in late 1965, as were two of the three other core Politburo leaders (Lukman and Njoto), before they could provide their accounts. The one among them who survived the initial terror, the general secretary of the party, Sudisman, admitted in the military’s kangaroo court in 1967 that the PKI as an institution knew nothing of the September 30th Movement but that certain leaders were involved in a personal capacity. If the movement’s leaders had been treated as the leaders of previous revolts against the postcolonial government, they would have been arrested, put on trial, and sentenced. All the members of their organizations would not have been imprisoned or massacred.

With so little public discussion and so little scholarly research about the 1965-66 mass killings, they remain poorly understood. Many people outside of Indonesia believe that the victims were primarily Indonesian Chinese. While some Indonesian Chinese were among the victims, they were by no means the majority. The violence targeted members of the PKI and the various organizations either allied to the party or sympathetic to it, whatever ethnicity they happened to be: Javanese, Balinese, Sundanese, etc. It was not a case of ethnic cleansing. Many people imagine that the killings were committed by frenzied mobs rampaging through villages and urban neighborhoods. But recent oral history research suggests that most of the killings were executions of detainees. [3] Much more research is needed before one can arrive at definitive conclusions.

President Sukarno, the target of the PKI’s alleged coup attempt, compared the army’s murderous violence against those labeled PKI to a case of someone “burning down the house to kill a rat.” He routinely protested the army’s exaggerations of the September 30th Movement. It was, he said, nothing more than “a ripple in the wide ocean.” His inability or unwillingness to muster anything more than rhetorical protests, however, ultimately doomed his rule. In March 1966, Suharto grabbed the authority to dismiss, appoint, and arrest cabinet ministers, even while maintaining Sukarno as figurehead president until March 1967. The great orator who had led the nationalist struggle against the Dutch, the cosmopolitan visionary of the Non-Aligned Movement, was outmaneuvered by a taciturn, uneducated, thuggish, corrupt army general from a Javanese village.

Suharto, a relative nobody in Indonesian politics, moved against the PKI and Sukarno with the full support of the U.S. government. Marshall Green, American ambassador to Indonesia at the time, wrote that the embassy had “made clear” to the army that Washington was “generally sympathetic with and admiring” of its actions. [4] U.S. officials went so far as to express concern in the days following the September 30th Movement that the army might not do enough to annihilate the PKI. [5] The U.S. embassy supplied radio equipment, walkie-talkies, and small arms to Suharto so that his troops could conduct the nationwide assault on civilians. [6] A diligent embassy official with a penchant for data collection did his part by handing the army a list of thousands of names of PKI members. [7] Such moral and material support was much appreciated in the Indonesian army. As an aide to the army’s chief of staff informed U.S. embassy officials in October 1965, “This was just what was needed by way of assurances that we weren’t going to be hit from all angles as we moved to straighten things out here.” [8]

This collaboration between the U.S. and the top army brass in 1965 was rooted in Washington’s longstanding wish to have privileged and enhanced access to Southeast Asia’s resource wealth. Many in Washington saw Indonesia as the region’s centerpiece. Richard Nixon characterized the country as “containing the region’s richest hoard of natural resources” and “by far the greatest prize in the South East Asian area.” [9] Two years earlier, in a 1965 speech in Asia, Nixon had argued in favor of bombing North Vietnam to protect Indonesia’s “immense mineral potential.” [10] But obstacles to the realization of Washington’s geopolitical-economic vision arose when the Sukarno government emerged upon independence in Indonesia. Sukarno’s domestic and foreign policy was nationalist, nonaligned, and explicitly anti-imperialist. Moreover, his government had a working relationship with the powerful PKI, which Washington feared would eventually win national elections.

Eisenhower’s administration attempted to break up Indonesia and sabotage Sukarno’s presidency by supporting secessionist revolts in 1958. [11] When that criminal escapade of the Dulles brothers failed, the strategists in Washington reversed course and began backing the army officers of the central government. The new strategy was to cultivate anti-communist officers who could gradually build up the army as a shadow government capable of replacing President Sukarno and eliminating the PKI at some future date. The top army generals in Jakarta bided their time and waited for the opportune moment for what U.S. strategists called a final “showdown” with the PKI. [12] That moment came on October 1, 1965.

The destruction of the PKI and Sukarno’s ouster resulted in a dramatic shift in the regional power equation, leading Time magazine to hail Suharto's bloody takeover as “The West's best news for years in Asia.” [13] Several years later, the U.S. Navy League's publication gushed over Indonesia's new role in Southeast Asia as “that strategic area's unaggressive, but stern, monitor,” while characterizing the country as “one of Asia’s most highly developed nations and endowed by chance with what is probably the most strategically authoritative geographic location on earth.” [14] Among other things, the euphoria reflected just how lucrative the changing of the guard in Indonesia would prove to be for Western business interests.

Suharto’s clique of army officers took power with a long-term economic strategy in mind. They expected the legitimacy of their new regime would derive from economic growth and that growth would derive from bringing in Western investment, exporting natural resources to Western markets, and begging for Western aid. Suharto’s vision for the army was not in terms of defending the nation against foreign aggression but defending foreign capital against Indonesians. He personally intervened in a meeting of cabinet ministers in December 1965 that was discussing the nationalization of the oil companies Caltex and Stanvac. Soon after the meeting began, he suddenly arrived by helicopter, entered the chamber, and declared, as the gleeful U.S. embassy account has it, that the military “would not stand for precipitous moves against oil companies.” Faced with such a threat, the cabinet indefinitely postponed the discussion. [15] At the same time, Suharto’s army was jailing and killing union leaders at the facilities of U.S. oil companies and rubber plantations. [16]

Once Suharto decisively sidelined Sukarno in March 1966, the floodgates of foreign aid opened up. The U.S. shipped large quantities of rice and cloth for the explicit political purpose of shoring up his regime. Falling prices were meant to convince Indonesians that Suharto’s rule was an improvement over Sukarno’s. The regime’s ability over the following years to sustain economic growth via integration with Western capital provided whatever legitimacy it had. Once that pattern of growth ended with the capital flight of the 1997 Asian economic crisis, the regime’s legitimacy quickly vanished. Middle class university students, the fruits of economic growth, played a particularly important role in forcing Suharto from office. The Suharto regime lived by foreign capital and died by foreign capital.

By now it is clear that the much ballyhooed economic growth of the Suharto years was severely detrimental to the national interest. The country has little to show for all the natural resources sold on the world market. Payments on the foreign and domestic debt, part of it being the odious debt from the Suharto years, swallow up much of the government’s budget. With health care spending at a minimum, epidemic and preventable diseases are rampant. There is little domestic industrial production. The forests from which military officers and Suharto cronies continue to make fortunes are being cut down and burned up at an alarming rate. The country imports huge quantities of staple commodities that could be easily produced on a larger scale in Indonesia, such as sugar, rice, and soybeans. The main products of the villages now are migrant laborers, or “the heroes of foreign exchange,” to quote from a lighted sign at the Jakarta airport.

Apart from the pillaging of Indonesia’s resource base, the Suharto regime caused an astounding level of unnecessary suffering. At his command, the Indonesian military invaded neighboring East Timor in 1975 after receiving a green light from President Gerald Ford and his secretary of state, Henry Kissinger. The result was an occupation that lasted for almost 24 years and left a death toll of tens of thousands of East Timorese. Within Indonesia proper, the TNI committed widespread atrocities during counterinsurgency campaigns in the resource-rich provinces of West Papua and Aceh, resulting in tens of thousands of additional fatalities.

With Suharto’s forced resignation in 1998, significant democratic space has opened in Indonesia. There are competitive national and local elections. Victims of the “New Order” and their families are able to organize. There is even an official effort to create a national truth commission to investigate past atrocities. Nevertheless, the military still looms large over the country’s political system. As such, there has not been a thorough investigation of any of the countless massacres that took place in 1965-66. History textbooks still focus on the September 30th Movement and make no mention of the massacres. Similarly, no military or political leaders have been held responsible for the Suharto-era crimes (or those that have taken place since), thus increasing the likelihood of future atrocities. This impunity is a source of continuing worry for Indonesia’s civil society and restless regions, as well as poverty-stricken, now-independent East Timor. It is thus not surprising that the government of the world’s newest country feels compelled to play down demands for justice by its citizenry and emphasize an empty reconciliation process with Indonesia. Meanwhile in the United States, despite political support and billions of dollars in U.S. weaponry, military training and economic assistance to Jakarta over the preceding four decades, Washington’s role in Indonesia’s killing fields of 1965-66 and subsequent brutality has been effectively buried, thus enabling the Bush administration’s current efforts to further ties with Indonesia’s military, as part of the global “war on terror.” [17] Suharto’s removal from office has not led to radical changes in Indonesia’s state and economy.

Sukarno used to indict Dutch colonialism by saying that Indonesia was “a nation of coolies and a coolie among nations.” Thanks to the Suharto years, that description remains true. The principles of economic self-sufficiency, prosperity, and international recognition for which the nationalist struggle was fought now seem as remote as ever. It is encouraging that many Indonesians are now recalling Sukarno’s fight against Western imperialism (first the Netherlands and then the U.S.) after experiencing the misery that Suharto’s strategy of collaboration has wrought. In his “year of living dangerously” speech in August 1964 -- a phrase remembered in the West as just the title of a 1982 movie with Mel Gibson and Sigourney Weaver -- Sukarno spoke about the Indonesian ideal of national independence struggling to stay afloat in “an ocean of subversion and intervention from the imperialists and colonialists.” Suharto’s U.S.-assisted takeover of state power forty years ago this month drowned that ideal in blood, but it might just rise again during the ongoing economic crisis that is endangering the lives of so many Indonesians.

John Roosa is an assistant professor of history at the University of British Columbia, and is the author of Pretext for Mass Murder: The September 30th Movement and Suharto’s Coup d’État in Indonesia (University of Wisconsin Press, forthcoming in 2006). Joseph Nevins is an assistant professor of geography at Vassar College, and is the author of A Not-So-Distant Horror: Mass Violence in East Timor (Cornell University Press, 2005).

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Oct05/Roosa-Nevins1031.htm (http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Oct05/Roosa-Nevins1031.htm)

a_very_ex_STAB
03-16-2006, 09:34 AM
Well it made Indonesia safe for multinational companies to operate in so that's all that matters

ogukuo72
03-16-2006, 09:54 PM
This article is not history.

Contrary to the picture the article tried to paint, the PKI was - like all communist parties in Asia in 1965 - revolutionary in nature and was actively seeking to seize power. Like elsewhere in Southeast Asia, in countries such as Singapore and Malaysia, it tried to do so either through armed insurrection or through internal subversion. An essential element of the latter strategy is the infiltration of front organisations such as trade unions, students organisations, and non-communist political parties.

By 1965 it was the largest political party in Indonesia. Its power extended to a number of front organisations, such as trade unions and student organisations. Its influence extended even into the armed forces, where groups of young and naive "progressive" officers were involved. Standing in their way was the conservative army. Most senior Army generals were conservative and suspicious of the PKI, and its links with Maoist China.

In Sep 1965, tensions reached a critical level, and the PKI decided to strike first. It believed that by eliminating the senior officers in the Army that were opposed to it, it could destroy the conservative opposition against it. At the same time, "progressive" officers in the military would seize control of essential infrastructures.

This coup attempt unravelled when the conspirators failed to include GEN Suharto in their list, believing wrongly that this very young general was sympathetic to their cause. By all accounts, Suharto was shocked by the brutal abduction and killing of the conservative generals. The rest of the Army was similarly shocked, and even many of the "progressive" officers repudiated the PKI conspiracy. Retaliation was inevitable. PKI very much brought the subsequent disaster upon itself.

The destruction of the party, the trade unions, student organisations, and even "progressive" officers' club, were inevitable, given how PKI had infiltrated them in the Trojan Horse strategy. Leaving these front organisations intact would have invited trouble in the future.

Two additional points: The role of Sukarno is still quite murky. It was not clear if he knew about the conspiracy. My bet is that he did not. But the PKI seemed confident that Sukarno would back them in the end. This might have something to do with the fact that Sukarno was a consumate politician, and given that the PKI was the most powerful political party in Indonesia in 1965, he would have made it seemed that he was sympathetic to their cause. In any case, he was an enormously charismatic and popular figure in Indonesia, and a genuine war hero, and PKI had plotted to have him remain as a figure head President while it took over control of the government. This will give the appearance of a legitimate assumption of government, rather than a seizure of power.

The other point was the massacre of Chineses in the aftermath of the coup. This was one of the darkest episode of Indonesian history, which even the events of 1998 could not rival. By some estimates, 300,000 were killed, and very likely, most of them were not involved in the PKI conspiracy.

There can be no moral justification for the massacre. But the article attributed it to the wrong person. It was not Suharto that was responsible, but the socio-economic conditions of that time.

It must be understood that the legacy of Dutch colonial rule was such that a Chinese elite (consisting of less than 1% of the population) controlled vast portions of Indonesian wealth. That was so in 1965, it was still so in 1998, and it remained so even today. At the same time, the vast majority of Indonesians remained desperately poor. This leads to seething anger against the Chinese.

Much of the well educated and intellectual elites of Indonesia were also Chinese - not surprising given their wealth. At the same time, these elites showed the same naive sympathy towards China and communism as other intellectual elites in the 1960's. When word got out that Indonesian generals had been killed brutally by Communists, the reaction was inevitable, and the intellectual elites' symapthy for Communist China became a fatal liability for the rest of the community. This is truly ironical as most of the Chinese in Indonesia were conservatives and anti-communist.

I say this not to excuse the excesses of the Suharto regime, or the terrible things that happened in 1965/66 to the Chinese of Indonesia. But what happened must be seen in context.

Silent_Hunter
03-17-2006, 12:22 AM
The 1965-1966 Massacre in Indonesia is One of the worst mass murders of the twentieth century.

Do you have information about International Reaction to Indonesia for 1965 -1966 Massacre

ogukuo72
03-17-2006, 01:08 AM
I'm not sure about that. It's bad, no doubt, but figures ranged from 50,000 to 300,000.

Again, not to down play the horror of what had happened, this figure had to be put against what happened elsewhere. For example, a million people (out of a much smaller population than Indonesia) were killed in Cambodia. The artificial famine in Ukraine in the 1932/3 killed 7-10 Million. The Soviet Gulag system killed 7 million. 20 million Chinese died in the Great Leap Forward of the 1950's. 30 million died during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960's.

The article had a typical leftist slant to it. If you compare what happened in Indonesia to any one of the leftist governments in the 20th Century, it's hardly the worst mass murder of the 20th Century.

Silent_Hunter
03-17-2006, 01:21 AM
I'm not sure about that. It's bad, no doubt, but figures ranged from 50,000 to 300,000.



Not For 50,000 to 300,000 but 500,000 to 3,000,000 dead in 1965-1966 MAssacre in Indonesia.

Silent_Hunter
03-17-2006, 01:25 AM
The Indonesian Killings 1965-1966:
Studies from Java and Bali

One of history's biggest massacres ever took place in Indonesia in 1965/66, when around half a million people were killed in the suppression of the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI). The Indonesian Killings is not a formal history of that event, but a fairly eclectic collection of writings on to the subject, both academic analyses and first hand accounts. Since no systematic account of the killings has been written, however, this volume is a good starting point for anyone interested in one of the most important events in modern Indonesian history.
The introductory essay by Robert Cribb looks over some of the historiographical problems associated with the killings. The most obvious is the lack of information, not only about the events that sparked the slaughter (an alleged coup attempt by the PKI in which seven generals were killed) and the details of the killings themselves, but also about their overall scale. This extends to uncertainty about the total number of deaths, with figures ranging from seventy five thousand (a government report released at the end of 1965 when the killings were still underway) to two million (an estimate by emigre refugees). Interpretation of the events is also extremely complex -- the question is not just why the killing happened, but why such ferocity was involved and why people gave up their lives without struggling. Many factors were involved, both locally and at a national level: among them the struggle between the political parties, religion, state power, army propaganda, and violence in traditional Indonesian/Javanese life (the myth of the "peaceful Indonesian" is a form of Orientalism). Some of the consequences of the massacre were overt -- the destruction of the PKI and the growth in influence of the army are only the most obvious -- but Cribb also considers its role in the development of the state and its psychological effect on survivors. He also makes comparisons with other historical massacres with similar features, particularly those in Kampuchea and the St Bartholemew's Day massacre of Huguenots in 16th century France.

Michael von Langenborg's paper gives a description of the events of 1965/66 from a central, national perspective, and considers the importance of the killings for the history of state power in Indonesia. His basic thesis is that the killings underpin the power of the modern Indonesian state, and that their scale helped legitimise the growth of state power involved with the transition to the New Order.

An essay by Kenneth Young looks at how the particular characteristics of local regions influenced the course of events; although the killing was sparked by national events and followed a common pattern (general unrest followed by military sanctioned and assisted murder by nationalist and Muslim youth groups), its intensity and pattern varied considerably from area to area. In Kediri (in East Java) the violence was largely along religious lines (more orthodox Muslims against less) and, as a result of the settlement history of the area, predominantly intra-communal. In Pasuruan (also in East Java) religion was also important, but the violence was inter-communal. In Bali the division was more political -- Nationalist Party (PNI) vs PKI -- and more oriented along class lines (although these were confused, with many landlords being PKI supporters). In East Sumatra plantation workers confronted the military directly, and in the Nusatenggara state power was more limited and the killings happened later and at the hands of outside military forces.

Keith Foulcher contributes a short essay on references to the events of 1965/66 in recent Indonesian literature. He treats in some detail Arjip Rosidi's Anak Tanahair, a novel about the life of an artist in the period immediately before the crisis.

The remainder of the works are more source material than analysis. "Rural Violence in Klaten and Banyuwangi" is an account of rural violence immediately preceding the killings, from the point of view of non-communists. Based on interviews carried out in 1979, the accounts seem at times to be aimed at providing "justification" for the later killings (which aren't mentioned directly at all). The fairly obvious bias is presumably due to the absence of PKI leaders able to give their side of the story. So the description of the PKI "coup" in Manisrenggo ends "Manisrenggo itself received a platoon from Battalion F. Gradually the tension subsided and calm was restored." -- the latter being a process that must have involved the killing of hundreds of people.

"Crushing the G30S/PKI in Central Java" gives an idea of the official view, 15 years later, of events in Central Java. It concentrates on the movement of military forces and seems mostly concerned to prove that there was a widespread attempt (the G30S or "Gestapu 30th September" coup) by the PKI to seize power; again any mention of the killing of large numbers of people is omitted. On the other side, "Additional Data on Counter-Revolutionary Cruelty in Indonesia" is an anonymous catalogue of killings and tortures from East Java, apparently compiled in the 70s. Of all the included works this gives the most explicit account of actual killings.

Kenneth Orr uncovered some information about the killings while studying the Indonesian school system. The stories he recorded give a vivid picture of the different ways in which the killings affected individuals: a schoolteacher sitting on a hastily assembled investigating committee to decide which of his colleagues should die, helping to prevent completely uncontrolled slaughter by doing so; a clever "entrepreneur" making a fortune selling fake PNI membership cards to known PKI leaders; a massive shortage of teachers in the years following the killings; and a girl in the back row crying silently when the events of 1965 were discussed in a civics class in 1981.

Two of the works deal with events after 1966. In 1968 there were further killings in Purwodadi, about which more information is available. Reports by two journalists sent to cover them are included. Their accounts are extremely emotional; their almost desperate desire to find out the truth is confronted by their complete confusion about who to trust and what to believe. The result is a vivid impression of the uncertainty and fear hanging over the area at the time. "Survival: Bu Yeti's Story" is a moving account of one woman's imprisonment and attempt to lead a "normal" life after her release.

I found The Indonesian Killings a fascinating collection. Some of the material is unpolished, even unfinished, and may not appeal to those who like their history neatly and elegantly packaged in secondary sources, but Cribb's introductory essay at least should be accessible to everyone. The Indonesian Killings raises more questions than it answers, and I look forward to further reading on the subject.

23 September 1993

a_very_ex_STAB
03-17-2006, 04:12 AM
I'm not sure about that. It's bad, no doubt, but figures ranged from 50,000 to 300,000.

Again, not to down play the horror of what had happened, this figure had to be put against what happened elsewhere. For example, a million people (out of a much smaller population than Indonesia) were killed in Cambodia. The artificial famine in Ukraine in the 1932/3 killed 7-10 Million. The Soviet Gulag system killed 7 million. 20 million Chinese died in the Great Leap Forward of the 1950's. 30 million died during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960's.

The article had a typical leftist slant to it. If you compare what happened in Indonesia to any one of the leftist governments in the 20th Century, it's hardly the worst mass murder of the 20th Century.

A friend of mine who served in Indonesia's special forces said to me a while back that there is no way the massacres could have been carried out on the scale that they were without American help.

ogukuo72
03-17-2006, 04:26 AM
Silent Hunter,

I think even the 300,000 figure is too high. It's probably closer to the 50,000 figure. Even the sources you cited didn't produce any concrete evidence that the figures were pushing into the hundreds of thousands, but merely conjectures based upon other people's estimates based upon yet someone else's guesswork.

The scholarship based on government census figures that I've read (I must try to trace it) place the figure at closer to 75,000 to 80,000, concentrated mostly on Java.

You might argue that government figures had been fudged, but none of the sources cited above are anywhere near as concrete, and much of it appear to be unsubstantiated guesswork inflated for dramatic effect.

ogukuo72
03-17-2006, 04:40 AM
I would like to add one more point: I tend not to trust left wing sources. They tend to exaggerate and inflate numbers resulting from right wing atrocities.

For example, leftist sources would report that 20,000 or more people were killed during Pinochet's coup in 1973, whereas the investigations made by the centre-left government (hardly a source biased towards the right) found only 3,800 cases of deaths and suspicious disappearance.

This exaggeration is doubtlessly to discredit right wing regimes.

But given that any regime would be discredited by violent and illegal killings of even a handful of its citizens, I think that the real reason why leftists are so enthusiastic about inflating these figures is to try to balance the atrocities of left wing governments that reached not hundreds of thousands, but almost a hundred million.

Silent_Hunter
03-20-2006, 12:13 AM
The East Timor situation goes hand in hand with the Cold War. The West largely ignored the warnings there because Fretlin (The East Timor independence movement) was Marxist, so they really simply didn't care if they died or not. Remember that 10 years earlier, there were at least 500,000 PKI party members and other likely "Communists" who got killed by General Suharto to appease himself to the US. During the Kennedy era, he planned for troops to be either sent to Indonesia or Vietnam, and he chose the latter. Its the sickest kind of double standard there is http://forum.axishistory.com/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/indonesia1965.htm (http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/indonesia1965.htm)

a_very_ex_STAB
03-20-2006, 03:49 AM
I would like to add one more point: I tend not to trust lright wing sources. They tend to exaggerate and inflate numbers resulting from left wing atrocities. :)

Sorry i couldn't resist it

Jani.R
03-20-2006, 08:00 AM
Silent Hunter,

I think even the 300,000 figure is too high. It's probably closer to the 50,000 figure. Even the sources you cited didn't produce any concrete evidence that the figures were pushing into the hundreds of thousands, but merely conjectures based upon other people's estimates based upon yet someone else's guesswork.

The scholarship based on government census figures that I've read (I must try to trace it) place the figure at closer to 75,000 to 80,000, concentrated mostly on Java.

You might argue that government figures had been fudged, but none of the sources cited above are anywhere near as concrete, and much of it appear to be unsubstantiated guesswork inflated for dramatic effect.

How can you crush organization big as an 2mil with only killing 30-80k members of it?

That sounds flawed, but i would be entertained to see the "right" sources you claim to have.



Time Magazine presented the following account on December 17, 1966 : "Communists, red sympathisers and their families are being massacred by the thousands. Backlands army units are reported to have executed thousands of communists after interrogation in remote jails. Armed with wide-bladed knives called parangs, Moslem bands crept at night into the homes of communists, killing entire families and burying their bodies in shallow graves."
"The murder campaign became so brazen in parts of rural East Java, that Moslem bands placed the heads of victims on poles and paraded them through villages. The killings have been on such a scale that the disposal of the corpses has created a serious sanitation problem in East Java and Northern Sumatra where the humid air bears the reek of decaying flesh. Travellers from those areas tell of small rivers and streams that have been literally clogged with bodies."

nata4190
03-21-2006, 04:27 AM
[QUOTE=Jani.R]How can you crush organization big as an 2mil with only killing 30-80k members of it?

Because most members were not active members. Most of the marginal mass joined PKI because they were enticed by PKI's promise for free rice and some basic neccessities everytime they attended a rally. You also have to remember that most of these people were illiterate, when they made their mark on a piece of paper, most of them did not know that they were signing up to be a member of the communist party.

ogukuo72
03-21-2006, 04:39 AM
Nata is probably right. Given the heavily hierachical structure of PKI - typical of most Communist parties - taking out the top layer of elite is more than sufficient to decapitate the movement.

In fact, I see this as a point in favour of the Suharto regime. After removing the most dangerous leaders, it saw no need to pursue and elimnate the rank and file for ever having been a member of PKI. The organisation was perscribed, and that's the end of the story for the ordinary members.

This is certainly not the case with communist regimes like the Khmer Rouge, where anyone who was tainted by thought crimes could be picked up and eliminated.

nata4190
03-21-2006, 04:48 AM
Nata is probably right. Given the heavily hierachical structure of PKI - typical of most Communist parties - taking out the top layer of elite is more than sufficient to decapitate the movement.

In fact, I see this as a point in favour of the Suharto regime. After removing the most dangerous leaders, it saw no need to pursue and elimnate the rank and file for ever having been a member of PKI. The organisation was perscribed, and that's the end of the story for the ordinary members.

This is certainly not the case with communist regimes like the Khmer Rouge, where anyone who was tainted by thought crimes could be picked up and eliminated.
There has even allegations that Soeharto was actually the perpetrator of the September 30th movement (an operation in which PKI influenced soldiers kidnapped and killed 7 general officers). The interesting thing was that although Soeharto (then a Major General) held a very strategic billet (Commander of the Army Strategic Reserve Command), he was not targeted by the PKI at all.

ogukuo72
03-21-2006, 05:11 AM
I wouldn't be surprised at all. Politics is politics is politics.

Suharto was one of the "young Turks" in 1965 - one of those progressive officers. I wouldn't be surprised if PKI actually considered him to be sympathetic to its cause.

But as I've mentioned before, the brutal killing of the generals probably shocked most of the progressive officers, and turned them against the PKI conspiracy.

Silent_Hunter
03-24-2006, 04:50 AM
Do you have information about 1965-1966 massacre in Indonesia