Why Is Liberal a dirty word in America?

[EsoognomEhT]

Well?
Its generalised, unspecific & extremely simple.
Surely the US constitution was fairly liberal at the time?
This is what Liberal means in the UK;




http://www.askoxford.com/images/phase_2/spc.gif http://www.askoxford.com/images/interface/concise_oed.gif http://www.oup.co.uk/images/covers/0-19-861022-X.gif (http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-861022-X?view=ask)

liberal


• adjective 1 willing to respect and accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own. 2 (of a society, law, etc.) favourable to individual rights and freedoms. 3 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform. 4 (Liberal) (in the UK) relating to the Liberal Democrat party. 5 (especially of an interpretation of a law) not strictly literal. 6 given, used, or giving in generous amounts. 7 (of education) concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience.
• noun 1 a person of liberal views. 2 (Liberal) (in the UK) a Liberal Democrat.

[kineret]

this is why


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76396

[EsoognomEhT]

hmm. Maybe you need to understand the concept of liberalism?

I think a number of American's use the term liberal as some sort of (almost playground) insult.

"oh my, that man wants to take away my freedom - he's a liberal"

I shall borrow this from wiki (although not exactly a reputable source..it'll do)

An deology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology), philosophy, political tradition, and current of political (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics) thought, which holds liberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty) as the primary political value.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#_note-0) Broadly speaking, liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on the power of government and religion (and sometimes corporations)

[sir-chimp]

lollers .

[Happy]

in America, a liberal knows they are smarter than you, and as such, all of your hard earned money should go to pay taxes, and all this money can only rightly be spent on things important to Liberals, like welfare.

[FallenAngel]

Liberalism isn't a bad thing.

It's when it's taken to the extreme, as is often the case in America, where political correctness and the aim of an egalitarian society trumps common sense and personal responsibility.

And Mongoose is right, it's a phrase that evolves with time in American culture. 50 years ago, it would have applied to people like Martin Luther King Jr. 50 years before that, it would have applied to people like Teddy Roosevelt.

[EsoognomEhT]

in America, a liberal knows they are smarter than you, and as such, all of your hard earned money should go to pay taxes, and all this money can only rightly be spent on things important to Liberals, like welfare.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm getting at. Its more like an insult than anything related to politics, like "commie"

[EsoognomEhT]

hhere's some of the stuff liberals stand for in the UK

WE OPPOSE:
Tuition fees & top up fees




WE PROPOSE:

Scrapping student fees,

Further education affordable to every student

WE OPPOSE:
Compulsory I.D. Cards

WE PROPOSE:
Spending the money on 10,000 more police

Funded by scrapping compulsory I.D. cards

[BarkingSquirrel]

this is why


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76396Naw, this is why:

http://www.zombietime.com/

[FallenAngel]

hhere's some of the stuff liberals stand for in the UK

WE OPPOSE:
Tuition fees & top up fees




WE PROPOSE:

Scrapping student fees,

Further education affordable to every student

WE OPPOSE:
Compulsory I.D. Cards

WE PROPOSE:
Spending the money on 10,000 more police

Funded by scrapping compulsory I.D. cards



Just to contrast, the liberals here in America usually up tuition and student fees because the education money has been dumped into welfare to help that single mother of 7 who still refuses to get a job who's current live-in boyfriend somehow has found a way to pay for a $70,000 SUV ;)

[sir-chimp]

lollers again

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7823/scum28um.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5356/scum11or.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[toad]

Why Is Liberal a dirty word in America?

Well?

Translation:

'You tell me why you don't like liberalism...and I'll tell you why you're wrong'

[sir-chimp]

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6686/whatthehellisthat6xx5ho.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[sir-chimp]

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3273/1212155img2vu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[MEGR]

That dude's stomach looks like Jar Jar Binks.

[EsoognomEhT]

Translation:

'You tell me why you don't like liberalism...and I'll tell you why you're wrong'

Not really, I wouldn't call myself a liberal..except when it comes to ***, alcohol & tutition fees of course. I say bring back hanging, up the defence spending & (mumbles several dubious statements about immigration that would have him branded a racist no doubt by crazy lib dems)
Although apparently being a liberal here isn't being a liberal in America...and vice versa.

[BarkingSquirrel]

That ain't a dude MEGR.

[EsoognomEhT]

Its all very nice posting these pictures, but what makes any of those people "liberals" ? What are their political beliefs?

Or do you just find it much easier to use liberal as a playground insult? How about using ****ing wankers instead? I'm sure theres plenty of conservatives and labour supporters that don't agree with the war that would be mortified to be called a liberal.

[sir-chimp]

That ain't a dude MEGR.
dude + chick = ****

[MEGR]

That ain't a dude MEGR.

The horror.

[sir-chimp]

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3435/1292960img6aq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[sir-chimp]

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5691/img24817qq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[sir-chimp]

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4797/img24924xc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[sir-chimp]

Got to love the Free Mumia in the back ground rofl

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/3842/img22009ft.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[BarkingSquirrel]

dude + chick = ****No it's not a hermaphrodite. I remember it from zombietimes, it was a group of old raging lesbos. Was a whole group of 'em in a parade topless like that.

And for god's sake, use the ****ing edit button.

[sir-chimp]

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/11/img21901ng.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Erik2a4]

Translation:

'You tell me why you don't like liberalism...and I'll tell you why you're wrong'

Best quote of the day, and spot on the money :)

[sir-chimp]

No it's not a hermaphrodite. I remember it from zombietimes, it was a group of old raging lesbos. Was a whole group of 'em in a parade topless like that.

And for god's sake, use the ****ing edit button.


dude that chick has a ****

[sir-chimp]

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/1381/img24009mk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[MEGR]

Biosphere?? Like, with Paulie Shore? Paulie Shore couldn't save his career, and sure as hell can't save New Orleans.

Man, we totally hijacked this thread.

[Erik2a4]

Not really, I wouldn't call myself a liberal..except when it comes to ***, alcohol & tutition fees of course. I say bring back hanging, up the defence spending & (mumbles several dubious statements about immigration that would have him branded a racist no doubt by crazy lib dems)
Although apparently being a liberal here isn't being a liberal in America...and vice versa.

Exactly true, but I think you're making a semantic argument, not a cultural one.

Liberal = Left Wing in the U.S. Often extreme left wing.

I, for one, can read a dictionary. However the difference between the denotation and connotation of a word can be enormous.

No big deal, and I think you're blowing it out of proportion.

[EsoognomEhT]

This is all very nice...but its just furthering the argument that people don't understand even basic principles of liberalism and instead use it as a petty insult.


erik; maybe I am but it just "bugs" me, 'liberals this' 'liberals that' - to me it just seems like something someone has come up with as a general insult rather than anything related to politics.

[Erik2a4]

This is all very nice...but its just furthering the argument that people don't understand even basic principles of liberalism and instead use it as a petty insult.

But you're talking about the hoi polloi here. These are the very people that "liberalism" is supposed to protect and enhance. If the "basic principles" of it are so obsure, then perhaps it is not quite the success story?

[EsoognomEhT]

I'd say America was probably built on the basic principles of liberalism.




I've heard that 'true' liberals call themselves "progressives" in America now..what does the term progressive represent to you people?

[MEGR]

It's really only a so called "dirty word" within the circles of Right Wing/Republican/Conservative groups.

[Erik2a4]

I'd say America was probably built on the basic principles of liberalism.




I've heard that 'true' liberals call themselves "progressives" in America now..what does the term progressive represent to you people?

Yes, but now we are confusing the term. The meanings behind words change over time (think of the term "Gay").

I would have to have a stronger understanding and grounding in the term as a political ideology before commenting upon it as the "basis for America". Remember, while there were some "enlightened" ideas, the whole concept is that the United States are a Republic...not a democracy. So I'm not sure if liberalism would directly apply there.

Is a Deist still a Christian? Not a direct analogy, but the closest I can think of at the time.

Either way, I'm pretty sure we're not going to decide this arguement here, since I can't even put my finger on exactly what we're arguing about except the differences between British and American (i.e. "proper") English.

[mi35d]

Meanwhile folks like those that frequent "Air America" call people who are on the right, fascists, Nazi's, etc. They casually mention that protestors should storm the white house and shoot the president.

But, heh - the "liberals" are the peaceful, calm and caring folks.

[sir-chimp]

Either way, I'm pretty sure we're not going to decide this arguement here, since I can't even put my finger on exactly what we're arguing about except the differences between British and American (i.e. "proper") English.


there is no "argument" here - mongoose is just being mongoose

[askDNA]

I think because of the lack of a multiparty system, society has just accepted a stereotype and categorized us into Liberal or Conservative to fit the two party system.

So if you happen to support minimum wage and unionized labor, people will scream dirty LIBERAL
And automatically throw you into:
-socialist
-pro-abortion
-pro-LBGT
-anti-ROTC on campus
-High taxes
-Welfare etc

Same thing if you say you're against abortion, people think you're an a$$hole CONSERVATIVE and bunch you with:
-pro-death penalty
-Tax cuts
-drive an SUV
-and all that other stuff

[sir-chimp]

The terms conservative or "neocon" and liberal are all used as petty insults to the same degree. To suggest other wise is just asinine and naive - but that has never stopped anyone before.

Ironically to suggest that the term "liberal" is singled out and those who are "liberals" are some how victimized only reinforces the stereotypical view of what is a "liberal" and what are "liberal" beliefs.

[Hollis]

For me, Liberals are people who don't know why they are liberals. Probably that is what bothers me, people who blindly follow any thing.... It is not the term, I guess neocons can mean about the same. But at least I hope they have a clue why they think they do, or they are no different than a Liberal.... clueless.........

[ogukuo72]

It's very confusing in the US and UK, because what is considered to be conservativism there is usually what is considered classical liberalism elsewhere.

In addition, the leftists in the US and UK adopted the same Trojan Horse strategy that was used around the world. They would join mainstream organisations, pretend to embrace their agendas, to eventually take them over.

[usmajunk]

The real basic premis here is that Liberals (in America) have this idealistic view of the world. The state can pay for everything, social freedoms of the minority matter more than the majority,other countries wont attack us if we dont provoke them by having an armed force.
While Conservatism is much more cycnical about those issues.
There are some moral and economic implications as well.

really, what it comes down to is that America likes a good compromise, and if you swing far to one side or another, it is viewed as extremeist, and therfore bad. Americans want a good middle-of-the-road government. Now the middle of the road may move (like the giant social programs of the 1930's -- considered by some to be too conservative), but thats where America likes to stay politically.

[daily666]

you guys should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal

The guys in the pics are socialists and communists not liberals, at least not to me. This word has different meaning in US and in Europe. In Poland liberal parties (like PO) are pro-flat low tax, are against abortion, less welfare state.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Not really, I wouldn't call myself a liberal..except when it comes to ***, alcohol & tutition fees of course. I say bring back hanging, up the defence spending & (mumbles several dubious statements about immigration that would have him branded a racist no doubt by crazy lib dems)
Although apparently being a liberal here isn't being a liberal in America...and vice versa.

Echo all that.
Liberal means different things here and there. So it gets confusing when the septics keep whining about liberal this and liberal that.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Don't take this too seriously folks - it made me smile though

Whiny child will be an adult Tory, says study

By David Usborne in New York

Published: 24 March 2006



Depending on your political predilections, you have double reason to be worried if you find your school-age child tends to be the whiny, sit-at-the-back-of-the-class kind. You had better get the child's confidence level up a notch or you may have a future conservative in your nest.
A study by Professor Jack Block of the University of California at Berkeley should be sufficient warning. He has been specialising in this area for years and his conclusions are clear: the boys and girls who are resilient, smooth and sure of themselves end up liberal in their older years.
The research, in the latest Journal of Research into Personality, does not exactly say that **** Cheney, the Vice President, must therefore have been the most tiresome wimp in school. Or that Al Gore won the school popularity contest. But it comes close. "The whiny kids tended to grow up conservative, and turned into rigid young adults who hewed closely to traditional gender roles and were uncomfortable with ambiguity," the professor found after selecting 90 children for his experiment and following their development over two decades to adulthood.
"The confident kids turned out liberal and were still hanging loose, turning into bright, non-conforming adults with wide interests. The girls were still outgoing, but the young men tended to turn introspective." Conservatives point out that the pool of children around Berkeley in San Francisco may not be scientifically representative of America.Jeff Greenberg, a social psychologist at the University of Arizona, said: "I found [the study] to be biased, shoddy work, poor science at best."
The columnist Jonah Goldberg said: "If one or two of the whinier kids turn out to be conservative, it might have more to do with the fact that their parents are whiny conservatives. Heck, if I lived in Berkeley, I might be whiny, too."

Depending on your political predilections, you have double reason to be worried if you find your school-age child tends to be the whiny, sit-at-the-back-of-the-class kind. You had better get the child's confidence level up a notch or you may have a future conservative in your nest.


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article353312.ece

[California Joe]

I too am always amazed at how easily unimaginative, ignorant types of people use words they don't even know the roots of as insults. Like when you're in a room full of white people and one of them decides to start saying "******" because hey, everyone is white so they must think exactly like me. Somewhere, somehow, people like Rush Limbaugh decided that the term "Liberal" would be interchangeable with the term "asshole" or "paedophile". They assigned a series of characteristics to this "Liberal" a gross characterization of everything they hate. Except for what they could steal from it and rename "Compassionate Conservatism" Then they spread the word and painted anyone that doesn't think exactly like them as a Liberal. A term so egregious to right thinking folk that venom fairly drips from their mouth when they say it.

[joe mama]

...A term so egregious to right thinking folk that venom fairly drips from their mouth when they say it.

No more so than the way left thinking folk react when they say conservative...

Forgot to add: the problem is too many morons on the right, the left, and in the middle. To me liberal/conservative are not dirty words necessarily, they just identify a number of people with, typically, a collection of similiar social/political views, some of which I agree with, some of which I disagree with.

[Firetxmi]

I too am always amazed at how easily unimaginative, ignorant types of people use words they don't even know the roots of as insults. Like when you're in a room full of white people and one of them decides to start saying "******" because hey, everyone is white so they must think exactly like me. Somewhere, somehow, people like Rush Limbaugh decided that the term "Liberal" would be interchangeable with the term "asshole" or "paedophile". They assigned a series of characteristics to this "Liberal" a gross characterization of everything they hate. Except for what they could steal from it and rename "Compassionate Conservatism" Then they spread the word and painted anyone that doesn't think exactly like them as a Liberal. A term so egregious to right thinking folk that venom fairly drips from their mouth when they say it.

Amen. I always enjoy your doses of common sense Cali......

[Geezah]

I like Rush(cowers behind the sofa, waiting for CJ to pull his belt out)



On insults, I prefer Libtard, Dimocrat, or Democrap, but I'm just following the rest of my Right Wing Bretherenp-)

[California Joe]

No more so than the way left thinking folk react when they say conservative...

I'm talking extremes on both ends of the spectrum. I have no use for either of them personally. I, like most normal people hold liberal and conservative views on different issues. I think people should be more judicious in their use of a lot of words.

Geez, Rush is one of those guys that makes perfect sense, right up until he crosses some line and goes into sanctimonious f*cktard land and then one is forced to pull back and think, "Jesus I wish that fat drug addict bastard would get cockpunched" Hell, I used to listen to G Gordon all the time just for sh*ts and giggles.

[moughoun]

I like Rush(cowers behind the sofa, waiting for CJ to pull his belt out)



On insults, I prefer Libtard, Dimocrat, or Democrap, but I'm just following the rest of my Right Wing Bretherenp-)


BAAAAAAAAAAAA BAAA

[moughoun]

ah good old Rush.....drug's are bad you say Rush, well thank God your here to keep us on the straight and narrow.

[Geezah]

BAAAAAAAAAAAA BAAA

HumBug.......;)

[Geezah]

ah good old Rush.....drug's are bad you say Rush, well thank God your here to keep us on the straight and narrow.

Prescription Drugs..........

[moughoun]

Prescription Drugs.......... which he abused, any different to any other addict, which he railed against?.....or is hypocracy cool now Geez?

[American Patriot]

He had some sort of back injury which he was prescribed Oxycontin for. That **** is on par with heroin. I think he railed against recreational use of drugs only?

[Count Lippe]

in America, a liberal knows they are smarter than you, and as such, all of your hard earned money should go to pay taxes, and all this money can only rightly be spent on things important to Liberals, like welfare.
Our liberals want less taxes, they're practically against all forms of state interference with business and private life...p-)

[moughoun]

He had some sort of back injury which he was prescribed Oxycontin for. That **** is on par with heroin. I think he railed against recreational use of drugs only? exsqueeze me, Oxycontin is called I believe "hillbilly heroin" for a reason, you use it, you get a hit, you use heroin, you get a hit, this splitting hair's BS, oh he was against recreational drug's", like there's a difference, abuse is abuse, why what was he abusing oxycontin for, because he had a bad back?, to some how justify the fact he was a junkie, is laughable, hell the he admit's he went for treatment twice and failed, then when the cop's come sniffing.....pardon the pun, oh lordy lordy, what a miraculous recovery from addiction, the only reason he got off it, is because, he thought he's get busted, not because he wanted to.

[Geezah]

Prescription Drugs..........

which he abused, any different to any other addict, which he railed against?.....or is hypocracy cool now Geez?

Now why'd you do that, you got me on that knife edge, do I support a Right Wing Brother or do I send him to the wolves;)
Well, atleast he didn't inhale...........

[moughoun]

Now why'd you do that, you got me on that knife edge, do I support a Right Wing Brother or do I send him to the wolves;)
Well, atleast he didn't inhale...........

no he swallowed....almost Linda lovelace volumes, of the stuffp-)

[Geezah]

exsqueeze me, Oxycontin is called I believe "hillbilly heroin" for a reason, you use it, you get a hit, you use heroin, you get a hit, this splitting hair's BS, oh he was against recreational drug's", like there's a difference, abuse is abuse, why what was he abusing oxycontin for, because he had a bad back?, to some how justify the fact he was a junkie, is laughable, hell the he admit's he went for treatment twice and failed, then when the cop's come sniffing.....pardon the pun, oh lordy lordy, what a miraculous recovery from addiction, the only reason he got off it, is because, he thought he's get busted, not because he wanted to.

To be honest I hate any type of drug use, I don't even like taking headaches pills, just don't believe in them.

[moughoun]

btw, Geez, he's not your brother, you can do better, then that hypocrit.

[ed316]

To Americans, liberals represent anti-gun, free open borders, a weak defence, too much talking and no action, and kids soccer games with no score. In other words Liberals means sissy. JMO


BTW. Some conservative groups are just as bad as radical left.

[Dexx]

AFAIK the US meaning of "liberalism" was first introduced in the 1950ies when you could not call a fellow American who had socialist views a commie. Communist USSR was the real opponent. So they gave "liberalism" a different meaning.

Nontheless, liberalism is NOT what US folks want it to be. It is exactly the opposite. Liberalism in its true meaning is "liberty". This includes different freedoms.

- Political freedoms. This freedom was important in the 18th and 19th century when the political liberalism movement fought against the allmighty Kings and Queens. The US Constitution was one of the first liberal writings that freed the Crown servants from their burden.

- Economic freedoms. This freedom is closely related to capitalism in the US sense. It was and still is important and means less state interference and more "liberal markets". The US is a perfect example of an economic liberal state.

- Religious and social freedoms. It is immanent to liberalism that everyone can make his own fortune and knows what to do to save money for his retirement. Furtheremore, in a religious sense, it means that noone can interfere in personal believes and how people should live.

In the end, liberalism is based on the era of Enlightenment and the freedom to do what ever you want to do without hurting others. This principle is the basis of the Categorical Imperative of Kant. To sum it up, the US meaning has turned the true meaning of "Liberalism" upside down.

[Geezah]

btw, Geez, he's not your brother, you can do better, then that hypocrit.

I know what you're saying, I do not condone what he did, I trully believe that if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword(what ever that means) and should walk the walk if you talk the talk louder than everyone else.

I will say this though, I enjoy his talk show on the radio when I catch it, and would prefer to listen to him over a Lib.

[Count Lippe]

Liberalism in it's classical form represents the values of traditional US republicans.:)

[Geezah]

I've not seen anyone mention Libertarian yet, I would say this is closer to the original meaning of Liberal(as I understand it)?

[vryhpyammoadded]

I'd say America was probably built on the basic principles of liberalism.

Yep


I've heard that 'true' liberals call themselves "progressives" in America now..what does the term progressive represent to you people?

Bwahahahha...

In the past American “Progressives” were nothing but repackaged “remarketed” socialists/communists trying to conceal there roots during the 1920’s and 30’s Stalinist intrigues. Today, there is a new wave of American "Liberals" calling themselves "Progressive" because most other Americans have no idea, thinking they’re not “Liberals” and must be ok. Mostly it sounds cool i.e. remarketed, repackaged. It's fresh, its now!
Most are very far from being liberal in its truest sense.
Note the pictures posted on this thread. Most of them would proudly call themselves "Progressives" hoping no one will really notice what they really are; American Liberals a few standard deviations out towards the wacky fringe.

American “Conservatives”, mostly not the ones in office, are the closest thing to being true liberals ;-)

It's too bad the Libertarians are so unfocused allowing the recent infiltration of "Liberals" Until recently, they were the truest Liberals IMO.

[joe mama]

I've not seen anyone mention Libertarian yet, I would say this is closer to the original meaning of Liberal(as I understand it)?

Good point Geez...from this thread, it sounds like the view that many non US people mean when they say "liberal" may be closer to what many US people mean when they say libertarian.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Good point Geez...from this thread, it sounds like the view that many non US people mean when they say "liberal" may be closer to what many US people mean when they say libertarian.

I think you're right about that

[pathfinder82]

I too am always amazed at how easily unimaginative, ignorant types of people use words they don't even know the roots of as insults. Like when you're in a room full of white people and one of them decides to start saying "******" because hey, everyone is white so they must think exactly like me. Somewhere, somehow, people like Rush Limbaugh decided that the term "Liberal" would be interchangeable with the term "asshole" or "paedophile". They assigned a series of characteristics to this "Liberal" a gross characterization of everything they hate. Except for what they could steal from it and rename "Compassionate Conservatism" Then they spread the word and painted anyone that doesn't think exactly like them as a Liberal. A term so egregious to right thinking folk that venom fairly drips from their mouth when they say it.

excellent f-ing post.

this country is tiring, I feel so much older and worn out just from living here. the constant BS from all sides is making me tired.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Being called a Liberal in the US is a political death sentence. Thus, they have renamed themselves "progressives" - a brilliant choice, since it implies motion towards, but does not specify towards what (which they are afraid to say, since, well, people would call them a liberal). But the new coat of paint on the old whore has already chipped off, and anybody paying attention knows damn well that a progressive is just a rebadged liberal.

That's not to say of course that all people on the left side of the isle are liberals - you have to be way over there to earn that title. But their current problem is that since the whack job partial-birth-aborting, SUV dealership burning, felon-voting, illegal driver's-licence-giving nuts are running the party, it is all to easy to lose that distinction.

Moderate Democrats, look into the glowing sphere of anti-matter in my mouth...feel it's hypnotic power and the tingling in your genitals, come over from the dark side, abandon the foolishness, and attend an RNC luncheon with this money saving coupon....

[Trigger]

^What he said.

[toki]

Being called a Liberal in the US is a political death sentence. Thus, they have renamed themselves "progressives" - a brilliant choice, since it implies motion towards, but does not specify towards what (which they are afraid to say, since, well, people would call them a liberal). But the new coat of paint on the old whore has already chipped off, and anybody paying attention knows damn well that a progressive is just a rebadged liberal.

That's not to say of course that all people on the left side of the isle are liberals - you have to be way over there to earn that title. But their current problem is that since the whack job partial-birth-aborting, SUV dealership burning, felon-voting, illegal driver's-licence-giving nuts are running the party, it is all to easy to lose that distinction.

Moderate Democrats, look into the glowing sphere of anti-matter in my mouth...feel it's hypnotic power and the tingling in your genitals, come over from the dark side, abandon the foolishness, and attend an RNC luncheon with this money saving coupon....
Why not calling those people extremists, what they basicly are, because they try to reach their goals with pointless violence. And those at left 'edge' leftists. Why degrading a word that has had another meaning and was (as i understood) very important for the foundation of the US? Not only literally (latin: liberare = to free).
Like CJ said the use of this word seems to be a broad brush. Being more precise helps from time to time. I can't help but think that the definition of the word (see 1st post, oxford dictionary) should be the same everywhere, but americans twisted it.

[Hollis]

Part of partisan politics is POLARIZATION. "Names" with instill a simple label on a group or idea or thing. Like the "Assualt rifle", a big and black nasty device that is a murderous tool, and it worked amoung those who don't a rifle from a pistol from a pea shooter.

The counter term to "Liberal" is "NeoCon"... A single word can completely defines everything good or everything evil in something. Sadly it works, lables work for a large number of people. Maybe it simplifies life, why think when one ozzz dripping word will describe those you hate, paint them all with same brush.

In business it is call differentiation, why am I better and my oppenent is a complete butt. Knowing that one label with completely discredit what a person is saying. Why listen to them after they were branded as a Liberal, or NeoCon. Damn pinkos any ways.

[s005288]

Liberals (the political party) in the US used to be right-wing politics. At some time (I don't know when) they changed to the left wing of politics.

In Europe and rest of the world for that matter, liberals have remained true to the meaning of the word and are on the right wing of politics, ie. market liberalisation, conservative, less government involvment, lower taxes and so on.

Maybe someone more into american political history can give us a history lesson.

[toki]

Part of partisan politics is POLARIZATION. "Names" with instill a simple label on a group or idea or thing. Like the "Assualt rifle", a big and black nasty device that is a murderous tool, and it worked amoung those who don't a rifle from a pistol from a pea shooter.

The counter term to "Liberal" is "NeoCon"... A single word can completely defines everything good or everything evil in something. Sadly it works, lables work for a large number of people. Maybe it simplifies life, why think when one ozzz dripping word will describe those you hate, paint them all with same brush.

In business it is call differentiation, why am I better and my oppenent is a complete butt. Knowing that one label with completely discredit what a person is saying. Why listen to them after they were branded as a Liberal, or NeoCon. Damn pinkos any ways.

I understand that. But polarization gets old pretty easy. Politically it's a blind alley and as you said you automatically stop listening to 50% of the people because you can't stand 10%. Whatever i think i made my point before.

[Maj C]

I always liked Wally better then Rush...it was part of growing up behind the Orange Curtain.

http://lifeinlegacy.com/2003/1011/GeorgeWally.jpg

[HappyWlad]

Maybe someone more into american political history can give us a history lesson.

Its pretty complicated but the short of it is: They flip flopped because of Vietnam. Vietnam threw the whole American political system out of whack. The Democrats had to reinvent themselves in '68 because Johnson wouldn't run again. So they embraced the isolationists which is normally a pretty conservative characteristic. Unfortunately, in the 60s, isolationism came with some baggage (socialists) and what you got were the Democrats of the 70s. (and today) The Republicans had to reinvent themselves after Nixon flushed the party down the toilet in the 70s. Eventually they sorted themselves out and became the Republicans of the 80s. Like I said before its a little more complicated than that but thats it in a nutshell.

Oh, my 2 cents:

Dexx nailed it above and 'liberal' became a word that was more sarcastic than anything else.

Wlad

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Well I would say that the differing meanings of liberal in Europe and the US have more to do with political realities and the shifting center ground than any ideological differences. I think they're after the same things but do it differently & from a different vantage point.

For example liberals on both sides take racism as a big issue - but liberals in the US want government quotas and laws to punish employers for hiring the "wrong" people, whereas in Europe that would not be acceptable. On a philosophical level, they both want to work towards the elimination of racism, but the center is already way to the left in Europe, and politics is different there (i.e. business is very different, and there are many more political parties).

Liberals are not a political party here, and we have, for all intents and purposes, only 2 parties. There is no party to the left of the Democrats. The center ground shifts here too - liberals from 50 years ago would likely be too conservative to even run for office as a conservative today. Our two party system sucks in many regards, but I have to say that there's a lot to be said for taking a stand one way or the other and going with it. Things tend to get done, rather than just talked about - and considering the economic, military and social power the US has, it's kind of hard to argue that the system doesn't work.

[Hollis]

Happy, I think your have it.

My view is that in the wings of both parties are wackos, the extremist who are always trying to steer the party. The DNC, IMHO, have been overrunned by them. From 1968 to 1992 only 4 years did the Dems have a president in office, and sence then only 8 years. Those losses alowed the wackos to gain control and drive the Moderates out of the National Party HQ.

Because of the extremist many main stream Dems have move to support "Centralist" R's. A lot of Dems where I live Voted for Bush. Interesting is that LBJ was probably a lot more conservative than GWB. I think Hillery is trying to look moderate, for that reason.

[joe mama]

Regardless of whether the US meaning of liberal is the same as the Euro (or wherever) meaning, I find when people who are quite proud of their liberal (US definition) beliefs shy away from identifying themselves as liberal and look for terms like progressive or whatever. I think some conservatives do this too, thinking of themselves as neo-cons or compassionate-conservatives, for example, but I think they tend to do it less. All of the conservatives I know aren't embarrassed by being called conservatives. Most of the liberals I know (I'm not using it as an insult here) are embarrassed by being called liberals.

[vryhpyammoadded]

First of all the counter term for Liberal is Conservative in the US. “NEOCON” is something fairly new that defines the growing numbers of US “activist” conservatives.
Note: I didn’t say extremist conservatives. There is a big difference. That label would better fit the far right religious the left so lovingly promotes as being the current ruling party. It’s not.
The liberals hate this with a bloody passion seeing they have for years held the only “activist” moniker by default due to the conservatives lacking any philosophical focus and there tradition of individualism that often leads to less confrontation with the socialist heard.
Today’s American liberals are a vestige of the 20th century International Socialist club aka International Communism. They are currently being dragged kicking and screaming into fights by the activist NeoCon’s who no longer fear confrontation. So one could say the left, including liberals (Progressives), Communists aka centralized management and right, including conservatives, Neocons aka Individual and group responsibility, are at odds.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Why have American liberals been floundering?

First off, the current US two party system mostly pays lip service to the citizens philosophies as long as they bring in the constituents votes allowing further employment of politicians who are really there for sucking up money and exchanging favors for buddies. Centralized management types love this atmosphere. They thrive in its corruption and it’s this corruption of “Liberal” politicians that has given the liberals such a bad name seeing they were until recently the ones in power since the early 1970’s. They had there propaganda victory with Vietnam, deposed the whales on the Hill, got lucky with Nixon and quickly followed up with takeovers of state and local governments.
Corruption leads to waste and Americans know a bad deal when they see one. As the “liberal” politicians grew fat and happy, unassailable by the defeated and embarrassed “conservative” politicians, they dug in and grew corrupt enough to reignite the conservative populations desire to restrain wasteful corruption.
Eventually a charismatic philosophical idealist appeared with Reagan who had the skills and support to counter the corrupted left politicians. If you look it up, you’ll find what won him the presidency was mostly the “Dixicrats”, the conservative Democrats of the South East US who flocked to the promise of downsizing of the federal government, a resurgent military and calling the Soviet bluffs of the 70’s. It was this victory in the south that shattered American liberals to this day into the conservative moderates, corrupt and wacky fringe left. They lost there core constituents to the other side.

The American left will only have its resurgence after they come back to a more conservative (true liberal) philosophy, shrug off the corrupt and the fringe and after the “Conservative” labeled politicians grow complacent dug in and corrupt having there days in the sun.

[BlackRain]

Naw, this is why:

http://www.zombietime.com/

Wanna see a liberal running wild in all its glory?

Check here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/

[EsoognomEhT]

See, blackrain just the term in a derogatory sense, if I was trying to insult someone I'd use a better term than "omg look at that Tory!"

[CPL Trevoga]

Naw, this is why:

http://www.zombietime.com/

WOW!!!! Hello motherf#ckin' WWIII!!! Now that s#it is worth a riot.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

[Geezah]

See, blackrain just the term in a derogatory sense, if I was trying to insult someone I'd use a better term than "omg look at that Tory!"

Like Libtard, Dimocrat or Democrap???

You have to remember Politics over here is much more of a dog and pony show when compared to the UK.

[Erik2a4]

All this just became vastly more interesting since I'm on the fifth vodka tonic and reading Warrior Politics by Kaplan.

I'm surprised no one has done more than just touched upon the fact that the US Republican party was a very "left-wing" party in it's conception...while the Democrats were very conservative up until FDR.

I could continue, but it's time for vodka tonic number six...

Oh, btw, just for your reference Mongoose, your Para liason Officer brethern has given a good accounting for himself in a few bar brawls.

[budgie]

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3273/1212155img2vu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And so anyone who opposes this dirty little war (dirty in regards to the reasons it was started, not the conduct of the troops) is a liberal right? Anyone who doesn't want to see a city wrecked by street to street fighting is an enemy symapthizer? The warhawks here aree so quick to slap a label on anyone who disagrees with them - it's childish, bullying and frankly sickening to see how they glorify violence and condemn anyone who preaches common sense.

[budgie]

lollers again

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7823/scum28um.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5356/scum11or.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

What we have here is a picture of a pair of extreme anti-authority nutbags. Who says they're liberals and why should their views be associated with mainstream anti-war opinion? The shirt doesn't read, "I'm a liberal and I support troops who shoot their officers" does it?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Like Libtard, Dimocrat or Democrap???

You have to remember Politics over here is much more of a dog and pony show when compared to the UK.

Is that why you've got a donkey in the White House? :)

[Geezah]

Is that why you've got a donkey in the White House? :)

Actually that's the Dims, the Elephant represents the Republicans;)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Actually that's the Dims, the Elephant represents the Republicans;)

So you're saying Bush is a closet democrat? ;-)

[moughoun]

Actually that's the Dims, the Elephant represents the Republicans;)
ah....that explain's the mountain's of poo they come out withp-), btw what is it with the donkey and elephant as party symbol's?, not exactly go getting member's of the animal World

[vryhpyammoadded]

And so anyone who opposes this dirty little war (dirty in regards to the reasons it was started, not the conduct of the troops) is a liberal right? First off, the fact Saddam obviously felt complete contempt for the UN as per his shenanigans with inspectors bringing down a war on his head doesn’t make for the dirty “politically” war I think you imply. Don’t misunderstand though. I agree there’s political dirt all around but over all, the invasion of Iraq was legal and justified.
Next, no… but “most” Americans who oppose, more than likely, consider themselves a liberal.


Anyone who doesn't want to see a city wrecked by street to street fighting is an enemy symapthizer?
Heck no and you know that. You might want to consider rewriting that question. But, the people pictured are sure helping the enemy, in their own “tiny” way, what with there asinine, melodramatic statements proudly scribbled on there shirts and placards. There behavior is just plain immature, purposefully misleading and corrupt.
If a single insurgent or terrorist gets the slightest hope of going through with there crimes because they see American citizens supporting there confused and warped reality then yes, that’s being an enemy sympathizer.
But hey, it’s a free country; they can make statements as stupid, asinine and immature as they want. The Constitution guarantees that!


The warhawks here aree so quick to slap a label on anyone who disagrees with them - it's childish, bullying and frankly sickening to see how they glorify violence and condemn anyone who preaches common sense. Not all us “war hawks” slap labels on those who disagree. I tend to think a while befor I lable someone but yes, there are a few who do shoot from the hip. Further more I find your comment about glorifying violence while condemning those who preach “common sense” as ill informed as those few “war hawks” you complain so loudly about.
I consider myself a war hawk yet I don’t condemn those who voice a counter opinion, although, I might enjoy a joke or two at there expense and ridicule them occasionally for there flawed philosophy. Condemnation is reserved for the worst of the lot who actually, actively manipulate and decive or completly off there rocker rather than practice open discussion.

As far as this thread is concerned, just what do you mean by “common sense”?

[Geezah]

ah....that explain's the mountain's of poo they come out withp-), btw what is it with the donkey and elephant as party symbol's?, not exactly go getting member's of the animal World

Quick search,


This symbol of the party was born in the imagination of cartoonist Thomas Nast and first appeared in Harper's Weekly on November 7, 1874.

An 1860 issue of Railsplitter and an 1872 cartoon in Harper's Weekly connected elephants with Republicans, but it was Nast who provided the party with its symbol.

Oddly, two unconnected events led to the birth of the Republican Elephant. James Gordon Bennett's New York Herald raised the cry of "Caesarism" in connection with the possibility of a thirdterm try for President Ulysses S. Grant. The issue was taken up by the Democratic politicians in 1874, halfway through Grant's second term and just before the midterm elections, and helped disaffect Republican voters.

While the illustrated journals were depicting Grant wearing a crown, the Herald involved itself in another circulation-builder in an entirely different, nonpolitical area. This was the Central Park Menagerie Scare of 1874, a delightful hoax perpetrated by the Herald. They ran a story, totally untrue, that the animals in the zoo had broken loose and were roaming the wilds of New York's Central Park in search of prey.

Cartoonist Thomas Nast took the two examples of the Herald enterprise and put them together in a cartoon for Harper's Weekly. He showed an ass (symbolizing the Herald) wearing a lion's skin (the scary prospect of Caesarism) frightening away the animals in the forest (Central Park). The caption quoted a familiar fable: "An ass having put on a lion's skin roamed about in the forest and amused himself by frightening all the foolish animals he met within his wanderings."

One of the foolish animals in the cartoon was an elephant, representing the Republican vote - not the party, the Republican vote - which was being frightened away from its normal ties by the phony scare of Caesarism. In a subsequent cartoon on November 21, 1874, after the election in which the Republicans did badly, Nast followed up the idea by showing the elephant in a trap, illustrating the way the Republican vote had been decoyed from its normal allegiance. Other cartoonists picked up the symbol, and the elephant soon ceased to be the vote and became the party itself: the jackass, now referred to as the donkey, made a natural transition from representing the Herald to representing the Democratic party that had frightened the elephant.
....

[Hollis]

LOLOL, Bush is a centralist, and probably More Liberal the JFK and LBJ. Hillery is trying to be a centralist too, or atleast presenting herself as one. I think sometimes the differences between D's and R's is vague. Though the Political BSer will say they are not. Their canidate is the messiah and the other guy is satan is what we will hear.



So you're saying Bush is a closet democrat? ;-)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

LOLOL, Bush is a centralist, and probably More Liberal the JFK and LBJ. Hillery is trying to be a centralist too, or atleast presenting herself as one. I think sometimes the differences between D's and R's is vague. Though the Political BSer will say they are not. Their canidate is the messiah and the other guy is satan is what we will hear.

:) I always thought the difference between them was that the Republicans favour Mom's Apple Pie and the American Dream while the Democrats favour the American Dream and Mom's Apple Pie.

[sir-chimp]

What we have here is a picture of a pair of extreme anti-authority nutbags. Who says they're liberals and why should their views be associated with mainstream anti-war opinion? The shirt doesn't read, "I'm a liberal and I support troops who shoot their officers" does it?


you tell it brother

[Hollis]

These creatons(of the photos)< i wonder if they are the by-product fof the drug induced culture of the 60' and 70's... or just to many people and the bell shaped curve has gotten out of hand.

I don't anyone Liberal, Conservative who would want to claim them.

[cut]

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5691/img24817qq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

well done, socialism and liberalism are really the same thing

[sir-chimp]

well done, socialism and liberalism are really the same thing



thanks .

[Greek soldier]

Socialism+Liberalism = Tony Blair, since 1997...

[cut]

thanks .

your welcome. btw how old is 99? under 18?

on a serious note, a lot of George W Bush's policies are in fact liberal. if you use the correct definition of the term.

for example: WMD thing was realist, yes but that kind of f*ed up so were left with the liberal removal of a dictatorship.

That's the kind of thing mongoose is going on about. Those called "liberal" in the US are not liberal.

[Geezah]

your welcome. btw how old is 99? under 18?

on a serious note, a lot of George W Bush's policies are in fact liberal. if you use the correct definition of the term.

for example: WMD thing was realist, yes but that kind of f*ed up so were left with the liberal removal of a dictatorship.

That's the kind of thing mongoose is going on about. Those called "liberal" in the US are not liberal.

I dub thee, Sir State The Obvious........we covered that a few pages backp-)

[Geezah]

And so anyone who opposes this dirty little war (dirty in regards to the reasons it was started, not the conduct of the troops) is a liberal right? Anyone who doesn't want to see a city wrecked by street to street fighting is an enemy symapthizer? The warhawks here aree so quick to slap a label on anyone who disagrees with them - it's childish, bullying and frankly sickening to see how they glorify violence and condemn anyone who preaches common sense.

I'm not sure how old you are, but this whole anti-war, anti-captilist anti-estblishment thing has been played out so many times, this whole, lets protest because it's the cool thing to do right now before I light up my next reefer. Well, DRI, JFA, DKs, it's all been done before, doesn't matter if the cause is wrong or right they will be on the street protesting.
Now I still enjoy the Dead Kennedy's, never got into Jodie Foster's Army and went right off Dirty Rotten Imbeciles when they went down that whole crossover path, just trying to highlight this is nothing new.

[cut]

I dub thee, Sir State The Obvious........we covered that a few pages backp-)
I know I was just rounding off the post p-)

[sir-chimp]

your welcome. btw how old is 99? under 18?

.


yep good guess! care to take a guess at my astrological sign too?

[sir-chimp]

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9997/img57895jb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4919/img58255zy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/5595/img56371pq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1488/img58576vp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

got to love the uncle tom banner

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5646/img44909vn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2950/img56281qr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



like peace and stufff man, you hip?

[Hollis]

What ever happen to the Old Peace movements, ya know, Love-Ins, Be-Ins where beautiful young Hippie gals made ya fell so good,

"All I need is your lovin' Got to have your Lovin'"

"Make Love not War"

when I was single I agreed to that..... Gotta Love thm Hippie Gals.

[cut]

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9997/img57895jb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4919/img58255zy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/5595/img56371pq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1488/img58576vp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

got to love the uncle tom banner

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5646/img44909vn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2950/img56281qr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)





we have those in europe too they're called socialists

[Dexx]

we have those in europe too they're called socialists

Yeah, Sir Chimp is too simple-minded to realize that his pictures don't fit into the definition of liberalism. Otherwise he wouldn't have posted them. You can call them socialist, peaceniks, commies etc but not liberals.

[martinexsquaddie]

the only good thing is most of those commies would be mortally offended to be called liberals:)

[sir-chimp]

Yeah, Sir Chimp is too simple-minded to realize that his pictures don't fit into the definition of liberalism. Otherwise he wouldn't have posted them. You can call them socialist, peaceniks, commies etc but not liberals.


thats kool

[ogukuo72]

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2950/img56281qr.jpg
Grassroots capitalism at work. Gosh! The irony!