'Muslim Madonna' - Brace for another muslims' riot, bloodshed

[Midav]

Muslim pop singer Deeyah has irked the Muslim world with her provocative new music video that shows her stripping off a burka to reveal her bikini-clad body.

Deeyah claims, the video, What will be? deals with Muslim women's rights and female empowerment, as it also features Muslim women who have fought for freedom of expression.

The singer, who was born in Norway but moved to the UK after her act alienated her from the Muslim community, has been forced to cancel performances and hire a team of bodyguards after inciting anger from British Muslims as well.

"I can't walk around without bodyguards. I would be lying if I said abuse from religious fanatics did not upset or scare me," the 28-year-old, dubbed as the 'Muslim Madonna' was quoted by Contactmusic, as saying.

Asian music TV network B4U TV dropped the video after receiving complaints.

"We played the video a couple of times and then did not play it again. We had threats which we were forced to take very seriously. These things are sensitive issues," an employee said.

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_13540.shtml

Video: http://www.deeyah.com/quicktime03.htm

[s005288]

Don't upset the muslims. They are like a child throwing a tantrum.

[shire19]

What the hell did she expect? There are actually women out there who enjoy wearing the Burqa and respect its values.

[ed316]

She's hot. I think Muslims should worry about other things then something this trivial.

[kineret]

What the hell did she expect? There are actually women out there who enjoy wearing the Burqa and respect its values.


yeah, its a total comfort zone, you know, wearing this trashbag over your head

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/44/446/446267/burka.jpg

good for this singer. the muslims will get pissed off and start crying over anything anyway. its her freedom, let her practice it. people who dont like it can go f-ck themselves.

[XxDualityxX]

hahahaha^^^^

[shire19]

yeah, its a total comfort zone, you know, wearing this trashbag over your head
To western standards maybe.. This is their culture and they like it just as it is else they wouldn't be wearing it.. The Burqa isn't even mentioned in the Quran or Islam in general.. Its just an culture within the middle-east that goes back before Islam..

People should stop trying to change the way of life for those that are not asking for it.. They should mind their own 'business'



good for this singer. the muslims will get pissed off and start crying over anything anyway. its her freedom, let her practice it. people who dont like it can go f-ck themselves.
Ofcourse, but when exercising the freedom to provoke you better be strapped up for the consenquences.. Best of luck to her.

[Resurrection]

What the hell did she expect? There are actually women out there who enjoy wearing the Burqa and respect its values.

I can see them being okay with wearing it, seeing as how they're muslim and all. But enjoying it? :roll:

[XxDualityxX]

To western standards maybe.. This is their culture and they like it just as it is else they wouldn't be wearing it.. The Burqa isn't even mentioned in the Quran or Islam in general.. Its just an culture within the middle-east that goes back before Islam..

People should stop trying to change the way of life for those that are not asking for it.. They should mind their own 'business'

Oh yeah cause the taliban were so much better.

[shire19]

Oh yeah cause the taliban were so much better.

Where did the Taliban come in? By mentioning 'way of life' I meant specificially the Burqa/Hijab.

[Midav]

What the hell did she expect? There are actually women out there who enjoy wearing the Burqa and respect its values.

There's this thing called free will. She's not killing anyone. She's not hurting anyone. She just wants to have some respect. There are open minded Muslims that do not worry about such minute things. I went to the pool with Muslim girls and they wore bikinis.

The people threatening her are ignorant fools. She is standing up to what is wrong. The reason why many women wear it is because they don't have much of a choice. Saudis got pissed off at American female soldiers for wearing a t-shirt for God's sake...

People should have the free will to choose for themselves.

[shire19]

I can see them being okay with wearing it, seeing as how they're muslim and all. But enjoying it? :roll:

Yeah believe it or not, there are those that enjoy wearing it.. Its not really tight or anything..
Its loose clothing which lets air in as easily as it goes out.
There are Muslims in the West that turned to this way of clothing, mostly the ones that are mothers or getting close to old-age. Even though their freedom to wear in the West isn't as restricted as in other parts of the world.

[Midav]

Where did the Taliban come in? By mentioning 'way of life' I meant specificially the Burqa/Hijab.

Her mother is from Afghanistan. Father is Pakistani (i believe). They left that part of the world to emigrate to Norway...

[shire19]

There's this thing called free will. She's not killing anyone. She's not hurting anyone. She just wants to have some respect. There are open minded Muslims that do not worry about such minute things. I went to the pool with Muslim girls and they wore bikinis.

The people threatening her are ignorant fools. She is standing up to what is wrong. The reason why many women wear it is because they don't have much of a choice. Saudis got pissed off at American female soldiers for wearing a t-shirt for God's sake...

People should have the free will to choose for themselves.
I totally agree.
There are women who dislike this type of clothing, there are those that couldn't care less but there are also those that actually devote their full attention to wearing this kind of dress in however styles they choose.

And those that choose to wear these dresses will criticize this woman for trying to make the 'world' believe that they are oppressed and silenced and would love to get out of them if they had the choice, and ofcourse we have those who take this too far by threatening her..

[XxDualityxX]

Where did the Taliban come in? By mentioning 'way of life' I meant specificially the Burqa/Hijab.

No because you made the callous comment of talking about people in the middle east never needed to be free of opression they love getting beat and raped for no reason.

[ibstolidude]

To western standards maybe.. This is their culture and they like it just as it is else they wouldn't be wearing it..
Well except for those too afraid to NOT wear it do to the fear of arrest, beatings, and the other violent reprisal.

People should stop trying to change the way of life for those that are not asking for it.. They should mind their own 'business'
Exactly, so you and those that will complain should LEAVE HER BE! Stop trying to change HER way of life and mind your own 'business.' Follow you own advice.


Ofcourse, but when exercising the freedom to provoke you better be strapped up for the consenquences.. Best of luck to her.
Are you actually going to justify VIOLENCE against a women because she took off a burhka and had on a bathing suit underneath? Are you listening to yourself? I guess you'd venture that Theo van Gogh had it coming?



See the above in red

[shire19]

No because you made the callous comment of talking about people in the middle east never needed to be free of opression they love getting beat and raped for no reason.

And you got all that out of this;

"People should stop trying to change the way of life for those that are not asking for it.. They should mind their own 'business'" ?

Again, I was specifically reffering to the Burqa/Hijab and there are women in the Middle-east who actually love wearing it!

Would you wanna change someone's way of life if they didn't ask for it?

[XxDualityxX]

Who said we were invading to make sure women dont have to wear a burqa I never heard anybody say that.

[shire19]

Well except for those too afraid to NOT wear it do to the fear of arrest, beatings, and the other violent reprisal.

Ofcourse, you have cases like those.. Never claimed otherwise.



Exactly, so you and those that will complain should LEAVE HER BE! Stop trying to change HER way of life and mind your own 'business.' Follow you own advice.

I'm not the one lumping all the women wearing Burqa into all being oppressed and not having the freedom to taking them off..

Infact I'm not complaining at all, I'm just showing that contrary to what this girl is preaching there are actually women who love this way of dressing.



Are you actually going to justify VIOLENCE against a women because she took off a burhka and had on a bathing suit underneath? Are you listening to yourself? I guess you'd venture that Theo van Gogh had it coming?

I can't recall justifying these threats made against her myself.. All I implied was that she would be stupid to believe she didnt see this coming.

[Midav]

I totally agree.
There are women who dislike this type of clothing, there are those that couldn't care less but there are also those that actually devote their full attention to wearing this kind of dress in however styles they choose.

And those that choose to wear these dresses will criticize this woman for trying to make the 'world' believe that they are oppressed and silenced and would love to get out of them if they had the choice, and ofcourse we have those who take this too far by threatening her..

Ok, thank you.

But the thing is, many women do not have a choice. If women want to wear it by their own choosing that is fine. Others do not have that choice.

This is very much the thing that this singer, Deeyah, is going against:

CLOTHING
Pressure on Bangladeshi Women to Wear Veil
Saturday Dec 10 2005, 7:03am PDT - Bhawana

Banned Islamist military group, responsible for a series of bombings in Bangladesh, has threatened to kill women if they do not wear a veil. The statement was announced by the Jamaat-ul-Mujahideen after Thursday suicide bombing which killed around eight people.

Jamaat-ul-Mujahideen in his statement to a Dhaka newspaper said, “Women will be killed if they are found to move around without wearing burqa (veil) from the first day of Jilhaj.”

http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/pressure-on-bangladeshi-women-to-wear-veil/

Unlike Saudi Arabia, it is not the government saying it, but rather, more Muslim terrorist fruitcakes. I have no doubt that out of fear, at least some will wear a veil.

[kineret]

so when a woman decides (or is most likely forced) to wear that ninja clown suit, we should respect her 'culture' and her religion. But when a woman decides to wear revealing outfit or shed this burka dirka, we should 'not be surprised' that she is getting death threats. Tolerance is a quid pro quo kinda thing. You cant expect tolerance one-way only.

[ed316]

so when a woman decides (or is most likely forced) to wear that ninja clown suit, we should respect her 'culture' and her religion. But when a woman decides to wear revealing outfit or shed this burka dirka, we should 'not be surprised' that she is getting death threats. Tolerance is a quid pro quo kinda thing. You cant expect tolerance one-way only.

That's right tolerance is a two way street.

[One?]

not all muslims are taliban.

as for "muslim" singers maybe you should google some lebanese or egyptian singers. They are half **** and no one gives a **** they just encourage it.

Just because your knowledge of islam and muslim woman is limited to the burkha doesn't mean its gonna make big news.



so when a woman decides (or is most likely forced) to wear that ninja clown suit, we should respect her 'culture' and her religion. But when a woman decides to wear revealing outfit or shed this burka dirka, we should 'not be surprised' that she is getting death threats. Tolerance is a quid pro quo kinda thing. You cant expect tolerance one-way only.

Most of them chose to wear the hijab. Do you call nuns oppressed woman because they cover their head? Do like not see afghani woman still covered up? Do you not see how the other countries in the middle east have half **** woman everywhere?

What about belly dancers? You think they wear a burkha too? I never knew what the burkha was till the US invaded afghanistan and I'm a lebanese muslim.

[StukaJr]

And you got all that out of this;

"People should stop trying to change the way of life for those that are not asking for it.. They should mind their own 'business'" ?

Again, I was specifically reffering to the Burqa/Hijab and there are (some) women in the Middle-east who actually love wearing it!

Would you wanna change someone's way of life if they didn't ask for it?

You forgot (some) - some women love wearing it, some women protest it... But then, how would you know about what women want, when you don't give women the right to vote nor voice their opinions?

Here is your own statement, right back at you:

Threatening someone with death is about as changing someone's "way of life for those that are not asking for it" as it gets... These militant/rioting/death thretening muslims should really "should mind their own 'business' " - there are bikini-clad women in the Rest Of the World "who actually love wearing it!"

When half of the population of your country is living in slave like medieval opression - do excuse me when I give a flying porkchop about it.

[kineret]

Most of them chose to wear the hijab. Do you call nuns oppressed woman because they cover their head? Do like not see afghani woman still covered up? Do you not see how the other countries in the middle east have half **** woman everywhere?

What about belly dancers? You think they wear a burkha too? I never knew what the burkha was till the US invaded afghanistan and I'm a lebanese muslim.


im not talking about the lebanese. i know lebanese girls, they arent forced to wrap themselves up into a shawarma. they dress normally, casually. The issue is that in A-stan, women arent given a chance to decide this. If it was only a matter of choice, thats one thing. But they have no choice, they have no right not to wear it, they will get beaten if they dont.

[East Scout]

She issss hot.........Some folks will surely die over this one.

[shire19]

Here is your own statement, right back at you:

Threatening someone with death is about as changing someone's "way of life for those that are not asking for it" as it gets... These militant/rioting/death thretening muslims should really "should mind their own 'business' " - there are bikini-clad women in the Rest Of the World "who actually love wearing it!"

When half of the population of your country is living in slave like medieval opression - do excuse me when I give a flying porkchop about it.

I hardly even posted about the threatening, that part is already a no-brainer and definatly don't support it.. I was just critizing how this woman is going about it by trying to get her point across.



You forgot (some) - some women love wearing it, some women protest it... But then, how would you know about what women want, when you don't give women the right to vote nor voice their opinions?

Here in the West they let them voice their opnions, and right to vote.. Like in Iran for example, and yet with this freedom they still decide to wear the Hijab/Burqa.. Heck even my sister who grew up in the West started wearing the Hijab when she was around 20 years old and started to take her religion seriously. Before that she was a loose cannon.

[East Scout]

Post a picture of your sister..We'll let ya know if she need a burqua or not..

[Midav]

Post a picture of your sister..We'll let ya know if she need a burqua or not..

Come on man, that's just ignorant.

[dogboon]

Muslim madonna? Does...not...compute. :)

[XxDualityxX]

Whatever the whole point is now women will have the choice if they want to wear a burqa or not.

[Resevoir Hogs]

To western standards maybe.. This is their culture and they like it just as it is else they wouldn't be wearing it.. The Burqa isn't even mentioned in the Quran or Islam in general.. Its just an culture within the middle-east that goes back before Islam..


Not just western standards, more like the whole worlds standards except for muslims. No one should be forced to not wear the hijab or burka, however no one should force women to wear it either. It needs to be a real choice in those countries. Like it is here.

[XxDualityxX]

Not just western standards, more like the whole worlds standards except for muslims. No one should be forced to not wear the hijab or burka, however no one show force women to wear it either. It needs to be a real choice in those countries. Like it is here.

Word its like he is a renowned expert on how middle east civilians feel.

[shire19]

Not just western standards, more like the whole worlds standards except for muslims. No one should be forced to not wear the hijab or burka, however no one should force women to wear it either. It needs to be a real choice in those countries. Like it is here.

It is a choice in Iran, Qatar, Somalia, Bahrain, Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt just to name a few.. Some are banned to wear the Hijab/Burqa in certain places like in France.

[kineret]

It is a choice in Iran, Qatar, Somalia, Bahrain, Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt just to name a few.. Some are banned to wear the Hijab/Burqa in certain places like in France.

France only bans it in schools. paaahlease. dont even try comparing the personal freedoms of western nations like France to nations like Iran, where kissing in public will get you a friendly meeing with the basij 'morality' police. Turkey is the most westernized, so its actually relatively free compared to the other nations.

[shire19]

France only bans it in schools. paaahlease. dont even try comparing the personal freedoms of western nations like France to nations like Iran, where kissing in public will get you a friendly meeing with the basij 'morality' police. Turkey is the most westernized, so its actually relatively free compared to the other nations.

I was replying to the freedom of choice when its regarding Burqa/Hijab in these countries.. Try actually reading the comments before replying on them, another poster in this thread made the same mistake.

[Mailman]

Yeah believe it or not, there are those that enjoy wearing it

There are a hell of a lot more who dont!

I tell you what...why dont you wear one everywhere you go...we shall soon see just how much you "enjoy" looking like a f*cking jawa from star wars! :D

Mailman

[Kontra1]

This IS one of our Madonnas...and she really digs military :)


http://www.sahinozer.com.tr/images/tugba_ekinci.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSbcDPxIfQ8&search=Turkish

[NewsMan]

Ok... so I have to tell a joke...

What does T & A mean in Afghanistan?

Toes and Ankles!

Back to your regularly scheduled topic.

[East Scout]

There are a hell of a lot more who dont!

I tell you what...why dont you wear one everywhere you go...we shall soon see just how much you "enjoy" looking like a f*cking jawa from star wars! :D

Mailman


LOL Jawa.....................HAHAHAHHAHAHA.....

[XxDualityxX]

I was replying to the freedom of choice when its regarding Burqa/Hijab in these countries.. Try actually reading the comments before replying on them, another poster in this thread made the same mistake.

Which really was a attempt to sidestep the comment because we were never talking about burqas in french schools.

[Daniel1115]

http://www.sahinozer.com.tr/images/tugba_ekinci.jpg

Kontra, you aren't kidding. I want a poster of that on my bedroom wall. :p She is very gorgeous.

I liked the scenes of her working the punching bag. woot

[Ballistic]

This IS one of our Madonnas...and she really digs military :)


http://www.sahinozer.com.tr/images/tugba_ekinci.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSbcDPxIfQ8&search=Turkish

woot Hot. :D

[Kontra1]

http://www.sahinozer.com.tr/images/tugba_ekinci.jpg

Kontra, you aren't kidding. I want a poster of that on my bedroom wall. :p She is very gorgeous.

I liked the scenes of her working the punching bag. woot

Here you go man...lots of pictures of her here :)

http://www.sahinozer.com.tr/tugba_ekinci.asp

BTW...she's almost as hot as the girls where you are located at...eh? ;) (I was at the USL for a while)

[Belrick]

To western standards maybe.. This is their culture and they like it just as it is else they wouldn't be wearing it.. The Burqa isn't even mentioned in the Quran or Islam in general.. Its just an culture within the middle-east that goes back before Islam..

People should stop trying to change the way of life for those that are not asking for it.. They should mind their own 'business'


Ofcourse, but when exercising the freedom to provoke you better be strapped up for the consenquences.. Best of luck to her.

If youre breathing was provocative to a group of people, what steps would you under take to placate them before realising that others being petty and getting riled up over basically silly ideals is something best ignored?

Just like a child throwing a tantrum for not getting enough attention, let them stamp there feet and hold there breath till there grown up enough to start acting like adults.

[Belrick]

Post a picture of your sister..We'll let ya know if she need a burqua or not..


HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa

[shire19]

Which really was a attempt to sidestep the comment because we were never talking about burqas in french schools.

What?! And here I thought I was having problems understanding English being its my 3rd language and all... *sigh*

[Scyth]

I want to save this one but can't. heeeelp!

http://www.sahinozer.com.tr/images/tuba/thumbnails/DSC_50055_t.jpg

http://www.sahinozer.com.tr/tugba_ekinci.asp

[kraf001]

I think the problem with most ppl posting in this thread is that they view this event from a Western perspective which by no mean is the common regional perspective... there is this fixed negative view towards hijab in West which is understandable as it is in full contrast with Western way of life... I had a similar point of view as well for a while... I grew up in an open non-religious family in Iran and most of our relatives and friends are the same so I wasn’t used to going to someone's house and see the females all covering themselves up (keep that in mind that Islamic dress code is an outdoor thing in Iran's mainstream society) so whenever it happened and we went to someone's place and I saw the female covering themselves I automatically disliked them..

but now things are different, when you get in touch with same ppl that you disliked because they didn't show you skin, in most cases you find out that you were wrong and they are quiet likable... and their religious beliefs doesn't make them any worse than you are... so I see a problem with this so called Muslim Madonna.. I think she is full of it, she is just taking a cheap shot at a non-important women issue (she is an Afghan/Pakistani mix, there are other women issues far more important than burqa that women from these 2 countries face) to get more attention! The message she claims that she is sending could have been sent without disrespecting anyone else!

if she really cared about women status then she wouldn't have done that by putting down women who are religious... again I have to use an example from Iran:

http://www.iranian.com/Arts/2004/August/Dress/Images/8.jpg

in this picture you see 2 different sort of Iranian women, now if the women in front tries to show that she has more freedom because she is not dressed up like the ones behind her then I think she should be confronted for her words as they are offensive and completely ignorant... anyways only a stupid person would find true freedom in walking around half naked (I am not saying there is anything wrong with going around half naked but the freedom of doing so is not that important considering you have women in Saudi Arabia who can’t drive), this should be the least of their worries!

[DeltaWhisky58]

Post a picture of your sister..We'll let ya know if she need a burqua or not..

WARNING - this post is unnecessary and shows ignorance on your part. If pushing the envelope is your aim, you have succeeded - any more behaviour like this and you qualify for a free MP.Net-sponsored vacation to the sin bin - your future posting determines the duration >/=1month

[Resevoir Hogs]

It is a choice in Iran, Qatar, Somalia, Bahrain, Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt just to name a few.. Some are banned to wear the Hijab/Burqa in certain places like in France.

There's a difference between there being a law in a certain country saying a woman must wear it and having a culture that intimidates women into wearing it. In all those nations you mentioned it is still forced on a lot of women by men who believe it is their religious duty to make sure their sisters and wives wear it. Those women should be given the real choice to wear it like they have it here.

[shire19]

There's a difference between there being a law in a certain country saying a woman must wear it and having a culture that intimidates women into wearing it. In all those nations you mentioned it is still forced on a lot of women by men who believe it is their religious duty to make sure their sisters and wives wear it. Those women should be given the real choice to wear it like they have it here.
But by seeing how some of these women dress in these countries shows that they are not being intimidated into wearing the Hijab/Burqa..
But there are also those that are definatly being intimidated into wearing it and thats something I don't agree with.

Its like in the west how some women are culturally intimidated into wearing make-up to look pretty or wear tight clothes because they believe by wearing large ones (more comfortable) will make them look fat.

[Resevoir Hogs]

But by seeing how some of these women dress in these countries shows that they are not being intimidated into wearing the Hijab/Burqa..

There are definatly those that are being intimidated into wearing it and thats something I don't agree with.

Its like in the west how some women are culturally intimidated into wearing make-up to look pretty or wear tight clothes because they believe by wearing large ones (more comfortable) will make them look fat.

Which is what I am talking about. For something to be truely a choice there must be no serious intimidation against said choice.

Wearing a hijab is fine, so long as the woman doing it enjoys it and wants it. If they don't then there can't be any legal, personal or societal recourse against them.

There will always be standards in every society for how a woman should dress. The big difference in the west is that if a woman doesn't want to wear tight clothes then they won't have acid thrown in their face (pakistan) nor be disowned by their family.

Although there are some women here who shouldn't wear tight clothes as a result of looking like chewed bubblegum but that's off topic.

[Lazy Lob]

http://www.iranian.com/Arts/2004/August/Dress/Images/8.jpg



There was a similar picture to this a Newsweek mag about a month ago. Two young Iranian women shopping and dressed in a similar fashion. But also with flip flops and trousers just below the knee. The contradiction is inspiring. But what is going on in Iranian society? Why now? I’d love to visit the country, what a history and what a pity it’s being squashed by the Shia clergy.

[s005288]

yeah, its a total comfort zone, you know, wearing this trashbag over your head

I tell you what...why dont you wear one everywhere you go...we shall soon see just how much you "enjoy" looking like a f*cking jawa from star wars! :grin:
Oh,,mega lol. rofl

[Redux]

There was a similar picture to this a Newsweek mag about a month ago. Two young Iranian women shopping and dressed in a similar fashion. But also with flip flops and trousers just below the knee. The contradiction is inspiring. But what is going on in Iranian society? Why now? I’d love to visit the country, what a history and what a pity it’s being squashed by the Shia clergy.
afaik, women had relative levels of freedom under the shah prior to the iranian revolution (well they definitely had more freedom under the shah than under Khomeini). The last shah to an extent embraced western values, which obvious pissed off the clergy and other conservative muslims.

wat i'm saying is that the whole "women's revolution" trend thing in Iran is nothing new, it's been going on for a while, at least before the iranian revolution

[little fatso]

i love it man....the muslims draw cartoons of jesus and jews....then we go draw the prophet mohammed and they get pissed. and now when a muslim shows some skin...ohhhh nooooo. god damnit man i know alot of devout muslims up here in canada but they dont freak out with s**t like this, they are making a bad name of there religion.

P.S. she is hot....chances are all the muslim guys who saw her music video wanked off to it.

and karf i am not refering to her as i do think she is full of herself....i just hate the way the muslims react to things....when they do bad things to others in the name of allah. i do believe in religious freedom so wear what ever that thing is called, it is just a shame when things dont go there way they burn,bomb and beat their message through.

like that guy in afganistan....he switched to christianity and now they want to kill him(i know he was let off the hook) but i am talking about the ppl who want him dead....he is a marked man.

[callous]

.... because you made the callous comment of talking about people in the middle east ......

You called?

Why dosen't she just get some of the thugs from her video to protect her?

[Scyth]

TBut also with flip flops and trousers just below the knee.

The feet are not considered as a part of the body that should be covered in Islam. That's why you see often women with covered hair but extravagant open shoes with perfectly pedicured feet. If you dig feet, you'll be more than happy.

[sct1886]

What the hell did she expect? There are actually women out there who enjoy wearing the Burqa and respect its values.
"When in Rome do as the Romans" or get the hell out and go back to your 12th century lifestyle...

[Lazy Lob]

The feet are not considered as a part of the body that should be covered in Islam. That's why you see often women with covered hair but extravagant open shoes with perfectly pedicured feet. If you dig feet, you'll be more than happy.


I hate feet.

I was emphasising the legs aspect.

[Ayura]

"When in Rome do as the Romans" or get the hell out and go back to your 12th century lifestyle...


...you want people to take an over excessive amount of drugs, become obese and be an alchoholic with over 5 different kinds of STDs from sleeping with women? That's how alot of the world see the Western culture. :)

(this was sarcasm, anyone taking this seriously deserves a slap ;))

[kraf001]

I hate feet.

I was emphasising the legs aspect.
probably you mean something like this:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9371/dsc017752uh.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8606/15gw4.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/77/369355908yyrspkph7tj.jpg

but regarding the issue there are some points that should be taken into consideration:

* It is true that most Iranian women don't wear the Chador or don't have propel Hijab but that doesn't mean they reached this state by degrading Hijab.. this is exactly the point here, this wannabe Madonna picked the wrong topic if she was interested in violation of woman rights...

* Iranian women don't consider themselves free because the Islamic dress code gotten more loose, they consider themselves free (er) because as oppose to a real Islamic state (like Saudi Arabia) they can drive, vote, play sports, work, study, etc... even with all this women in Iran are far from being satisfied and will fight for more rights... this is the attitude that should be aimed for by Muslim women in all Islamic states... walking around half naked should be at the bottom of the list! This is exactly where countries like Lebanon went wrong… they misunderstood the notion of women freedom, their freedom starts at dressing up like Western women and ends there!

[shire19]

"When in Rome do as the Romans" or get the hell out and go back to your 12th century lifestyle...
Bet you don't even know how people lived in the 12th century rofl

[Resevoir Hogs]

Bet you don't even know how people lived in the 12th century rofl

Look at parts of Afghanistan.

[Mastermind]

Yes...I can hardly wait until the great "Religion of Peace" takes us all over. Life will certainly be so tranquil and peaceful then.

[kraf001]

Look at parts of Afghanistan.
Afghanistan in 70s wasn't a Muslim place by any means, Muslims gained power granted by West to fight the soviets... true Afghanistan is the Afghanistan from 77 when Burqa wasn't the topic of conversation!.. if it was up to Afghans they would have chose soviet communism over Talibanism with no hesitation.

[Hollis]

...you want people to take an over excessive amount of drugs, become obese and be an alchoholic with over 5 different kinds of STDs from sleeping with women? That's how alot of the world see the Western culture. :)

(this was sarcasm, anyone taking this seriously deserves a slap ;))

Humm sure sounds better than islamic culture, "boys of perpetual freshness.in Jenna."

The issue is not the gripe, or the opinion is what one does about it. Somehow, "ME islam" thinks is the only moral authority on earth. In the west, there are people equally appauled at loose behavior they just don't go out and murder people for doing it. Maybe after watching a NAMBLA parade, the west should adopt some ME Islamic intolerant habits... or let see "boys of perpetual freshness" confuses me on this issue, what would their responce be?

[Resevoir Hogs]

Afghanistan in 70s wasn't a Muslim place by any means, Muslims gained power granted by West to fight the soviets... true Afghanistan is the Afghanistan from 77 when Burqa wasn't the topic of conversation!.. if it was up to Afghans they would have chose soviet communism over Talibanism with no hesitation.

Umm no your wrong Afghanistan's history as a mostly Islamic land does in fact predate the 1970's.

http://www.afghan-web.com/history/chron/index3.html

How does anything you've just posted have to do with my original assertion that in Afghanistan one can find attitudes and ways of living that are archaic?

[TriggerHappy]

Afghanistan in 70s wasn't a Muslim place by any means, Muslims gained power granted by West to fight the soviets... true Afghanistan is the Afghanistan from 77 when Burqa wasn't the topic of conversation!.. if it was up to Afghans they would have chose soviet communism over Talibanism with no hesitation.

So true.

But look how ended up.

All the prominet educated Afghanis left a litle after soviet invasion and the sheepherders from the mountain peeks, deserts and some forgoten villages come to the urban areas with Aks.
What do you expect??
Uneducated, Brainwashed villagers with the law in their hands.

PS:
Resevoir Hogs
He means that Afghanistan was a open society and women did not wear burga.
I have seen documentaries of afghan life before soviets and it was a very quiet beautiful country.

[kraf001]

So true.

But look how ended up.

All the prominet educated Afghanis left a litle after soviet invasion and the sheepherders from the mountain peeks, deserts and some forgoten villages come to the urban areas with Aks.
What do you expect??
Uneducated, Brainwashed villagers with the law in their hands.

that is true to some extend.. but like I said before soviet influence could have worked far better than Taliban... the whole thing went from bad to worse when West decided to support "anyone" that went against Soviets!.. Afghanistan could have been saved after fall of Soviet union from communism very easy by returning the intellectual exiles… the same process will take decades now… considering the big talks about Afghanistan being the model democracy!!


PS:
Resevoir Hogs
He means that Afghanistan was a open society and women did not wear burga.
I have seen documentaries of afghan life before soviets and it was a very quiet beautiful country.
thank you, at least there are ppl on this site who comment on things with some background knowledge...woot

[eatmars]

playboy muslim version

[Ayura]

Humm sure sounds better than islamic culture, "boys of perpetual freshness.in Jenna."

The issue is not the gripe, or the opinion is what one does about it. Somehow, "ME islam" thinks is the only moral authority on earth. In the west, there are people equally appauled at loose behavior they just don't go out and murder people for doing it. Maybe after watching a NAMBLA parade, the west should adopt some ME Islamic intolerant habits... or let see "boys of perpetual freshness" confuses me on this issue, what would their responce be?


Boys of perpetual freshness? What are you talking about?

[Mastermind]

I'm sure there is nothing to worry about. Islam is a religion of peace...it is so beautiful and loving...women should rush to it, embrace it...it has so much to offer them.

[Ayura]

I'm sure there is nothing to worry about. Islam is a religion of peace...it is so beautiful and loving...women should rush to it, embrace it...it has so much to offer them.


Who said Islam was a religion of peace? I think we have been down this road before. It's ok - just admit it - you want the destruction of all Muslims don't you?

[TriggerHappy]

Before I never cared about religion cause i was raised atheist.
But it is hard to stay passive when you have all this Islamic faundamelists saying to kill the non-muslims, to impose shariah law .......
So I am suspicious with Islam and every day my suspicions rise higher.

[Ayura]

Before I never cared about religion cause i was raised atheist.
But it is hard to stay passive when you have all this Islamic faundamelists saying to kill the non-muslims, to impose shariah law .......
So I am suspicious with Islam and every day my suspicions rise higher.


...Such as who? Which 'Islamic Fundamentalist' are you talking about?

[Resevoir Hogs]

PS:
Resevoir Hogs
He means that Afghanistan was a open society and women did not wear burga.
I have seen documentaries of afghan life before soviets and it was a very quiet beautiful country.

P.S. That's nice but I was talking about present day Afghanistan, not about what it was. Thanks for the completely irrelevant post Kraf.

[Resevoir Hogs]

thank you, at least there are ppl on this site who comment on things with some background knowledge...woot

At least I'm not the one bringing irrelevant topics up to counter what you think I was saying.

P.S. I was in fact commenting on PRESENT DAY Afghanistan and how one can see archaic practices and ideas in their modern lives. What Afghanistan was like in the 1970s is completely irrelevant to what I said because I made no assertions about Afghanistan's history, especially not saying it was always the way it is today. I am in fact am educated about Afghanistan, Kraf. Go spew your arrogance elsewhere.

[TriggerHappy]

...Such as who? Which 'Islamic Fundamentalist' are you talking about?

You know better.

Need i mention what happens to christian to syria, lebanon, sudan, indonesia, pakistan..??
Or do i need to mention all the islamic groups and their messages??
Or do i need to mention the case of christian converts executed for converting to Christianity?

And the list goes on...

[TriggerHappy]

P.S. That's nice but I was talking about present day Afghanistan, not about what it was. Thanks for the completely irrelevant post Kraf.

Just trying to help.

[Resevoir Hogs]

...Such as who? Which 'Islamic Fundamentalist' are you talking about?

How about Abu Hamza al-Masri for starters. He was a leader of a mosque in Britain, who liked to preach to his followers about killing all non-believers.

Further reading on this man, if you were unaware of him.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/05/27/masri040527.html
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/02/585E69F9-0847-4E76-9750-14D31A46BD81.html

[Resevoir Hogs]

Just trying to help.

I realize that but my annoyance was more directed to Kraf who I consider to be a tool.

[Ayura]

How about Abu Hamza al-Masri for starters. He was a leader of a mosque in Britain, who liked to preach to his followers about killing all non-believers.

Further reading on this man, if you were unaware of him.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/05/27/masri040527.html
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/02/585E69F9-0847-4E76-9750-14D31A46BD81.html


I knew about him ages ago. That is one man. I have met many Scholars and Imams who strongly dislike him.


For a second, I thought you was going to list at least 100 'Islamic fundamentalist' inside Britain. (Your post makes it seem that every single Mosque has people who 'preach' hate inside them.)

[Resevoir Hogs]

I knew about him ages ago. That is one man. I have met many Scholars and Imams who strongly dislike him.


For a second, I thought you was going to list at least 100 'Islamic fundamentalist' inside Britain. (Your post makes it seem that every single Mosque has people who 'preach' hate inside them.)

Or how about Dr.Ayman al-Zawahiri. Who once led the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and who merged it with Al Queda. He also preaches messages of genocide against all non-believers.

Lets get something straight here Ayura. I do not believe that the average muslim believes in these messages of hate, nor have I suggested they do. However you were asking about Islamic Extremists and for examples of them. I could provide you with examples of hundreds of them. However, there is no need for that since you seem to already be aware of them.

Is english your first language? Because I'm pretty sure that using the word extremist implies that they are not the mainstream nor the majority of muslim society. So don't try and defend muslims as a whole when there is no need to. I am fully aware that most are decent human beings.

But right now we are specifically talking about these radicals, so lets stay on topic shall we.

[TriggerHappy]

Or how about Dr.Ayman al-Zawahiri. Who once led the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and who merged it with Al Queda. He also preaches messages of genocide against all non-believers.

Lets get something straight here Ayura. I do not believe that the average muslim believes in these messages of hate, nor have I suggested they do. However you were asking about Islamic Extremists and for examples of them. I could provide you with examples of hundreds of them. However, there is no need for that since you seem to already be aware of them.

Is english your first language? Because I'm pretty sure that using the word extremist implies that they are not the mainstream nor the majority of muslim society. So don't try and defend muslims as a whole when there is no need to. I am fully aware that most are decent human beings.

But right now we are specifically talking about these radicals, so lets stay on topic shall we.

I would say only North Africans and Middle Eastern , Arabs in general are the bad apples.
Then we have the Irani and Pakistani which have a strong ideology.

I do not think Kazakh, Uzbeki, Kyrgiz, Malasian...... fell for this propaganda.

[Resevoir Hogs]

I would say only North Africans and Middle Eastern , Arabs in general are the bad apples.
Then we have the Irani and Pakistani which have a strong ideology.

I do not think Kazakh, Uzbeki, Kyrgiz, Malasian...... fell for this propaganda.

Who knows, there haven't been any good polls done that I have seen to make me believe that the majority of the people there believe that all non-believers should be killed.(or any of the other garbage that Islamic fundamentalist groups preach) If they did then we'd probably see more aid-workers being killed as a result of being non-believers.

In any case the general consensus on the street in Afghanistan that Mr.Rahman should have been executed for converting from Islam to Christianity is a sign for concern. And it is good then that we have troops, aid-workers and diplomats in place to effect change on that front.

[TriggerHappy]

Who knows, there haven't been any good polls done that I have seen to make me believe that the majority of the people there believe that all non-believers should be killed.(or any of the other garbage that Islamic fundamentalist groups preach) If they did then we'd probably see more aid-workers being killed as a result of being non-believers.
You really expect that people in polls with tick the question "are you willing to kill an infidel"???



In any case the general consensus on the street in Afghanistan that Mr.Rahman should have been executed for converting from Islam to Christianity is a sign for concern. And it is good then that we have troops, aid-workers and diplomats in place to effect change on that front


Afghanistan is a lost case.
Nato, US or anyone else over there should pack and return back.
That country is doomed to eternal turmoil.
ISAF and Karzai control only Kabul and the rest of the country is ruled by warlords that get payed for laying low.
It is just lost money and above all a sucrifice of good men for nothing.

[Resevoir Hogs]

You really expect that people in polls with tick the question "are you willing to kill an infidel"???

If you've ever done a poll or helped in one, you'd know that wording of a question is vital. So no that isn't how they would word a question.



Afghanistan is a lost case.
Nato, US or anyone else over there should pack and return back.
That country is doomed to eternal turmoil.
ISAF and Karzai control only Kabul and the rest of the country is ruled by warlords that get payed for laying low.
It is just lost money and above all a sucrifice of good men for nothing.

We have a word for the feeling you are expressing, defeatism. 2,200 Canadian troops in Kandahar say otherwise to your assertion that all the Afghan government controls is Kabul. That may have been the case at one point. But present day reality suggests otherwise. That is how a war is fought. Taking control bit by bit.

[TriggerHappy]

If you've ever done a poll or helped in one, you'd know that wording of a question is vital. So no that isn't how they would word a question..
Was trying to humor the situation.
Of course you do not ask souch question like that.


We have a word for the feeling you are expressing, defeatism. 2,200 Canadian troops in Kandahar say otherwise to your assertion that all the Afghan government controls is Kabul. That may have been the case at one point. But present day reality suggests otherwise. That is how a war is fought. Taking control bit by bit.
Oh common now.
Taleban are again on the move and have steped up their attacks.
Pakistani side of the borders is a big camp training for jihad.

As for the word defeatism i say it is partly true.
More like being realistic.
Peace and Stability in Afghanistan is a very very..... distand wild dream.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Oh common now.
Taleban are again on the move and have steped up their attacks.
Pakistani side of the borders is a big camp training for jihad.

As for the word defeatism i say it is partly true.
More like being realistic.
Peace and Stability in Afghanistan is a very very..... distand wild dream.

Taliban may be one the move, however we have UAVs and Satelite imagery that can show us where they are moving accross the border and deploy troops via helicopter to enage them. Which the coalition is doing.

The other day a large Taliban force attacked Canadian, US and Afghani soldiers at a forward operating base just outside Kandahar. 1 Canadian, 1 US and 8 Afghani soldiers were killed. Over 35 Taliban fighters were killed. If it is a war of attrition they want then frankly we are already well on the way to victory.

But this war is more than a simple war of attrition. It is a asymetrical conflict and one which we are winning.

Peace and Stability in Afghanistan won't be easy. Far from it, however, we are prepared to do what is necessary to defeat this scourge, no matter how long it takes. We have been deployed to places like Cyprus and Boznia for a very long time, we are fully capable now of out living the Taliban.

[TriggerHappy]

Taliban may be one the move, however we have UAVs and Satelite imagery that can show us where they are moving accross the border and deploy troops via helicopter to enage them. Which the coalition is doing.

The other day a large Taliban force attacked Canadian, US and Afghani soldiers at a forward operating base just outside Kandahar. 1 Canadian, 1 US and 8 Afghani soldiers were killed. Over 35 Taliban fighters were killed. If it is a war of attrition they want then frankly we are already well on the way to victory.

But this war is more than a simple war of attrition. It is a asymetrical conflict and one which we are winning.

Peace and Stability in Afghanistan won't be easy. Far from it, however, we are prepared to do what is necessary to defeat this scourge, no matter how long it takes. We have been deployed to places like Cyprus and Boznia for a very long time, we are fully capable now of out living the Taliban.

Ex-Yugoslavia is in the middle of Europe and not in Far east.
The way Europeans fight war is totally differnet.
We choose confrontation instead of war of attrition.
All Europeans Armies have central command.
They make war, they win/loose, they make agreements, war is over, case closed, now rebuild.

But in countries like Afghanistan war is going on for ever now.
You cannot win this wars.
America cannot win war of attritions cause Afghanis produce more fighters than US can send over there.
Not to mention that many citizens are not happy with sending their kids to the mountains of Afghanistan and that shows to the elections.
At same point we will have to redraw them.

[ed316]

Ex-Yugoslavia is in the middle of Europe and not in Far east.
The way Europeans fight war is totally differnet.
We choose confrontation instead of war of attrition.
All Europeans Armies have central command.
They make war, they win/loose, they make agreements, war is over, case closed, now rebuild.

But in countries like Afghanistan war is going on for ever now.
You cannot win this wars.
America cannot win war of attritions cause Afghanis produce more fighters than US can send over there.
Not to mention that many citizens are not happy with sending their kids to the mountains of Afghanistan and that shows to the elections.
At same point we will have to redraw them.

So are you saying the Coalition is doomed in A-stan?

[TriggerHappy]

So are you saying the Coalition is doomed in A-stan?
I mean that Isaf cannot bring Peace and Stability in Afghanistan.

[ed316]

I mean that Isaf cannot bring Peace and Stability in Afghanistan.


Wow, giving up already. Nice mentality there. :roll:

[TriggerHappy]

Wow, giving up already. Nice mentality there. :roll:
Look.
If it was let's say a conflict where people where really were feed up with war i would help them with pleasure.

But we are talking about Afghanistan.
People over there are starting to get born with an Ak in their hands.:)

Has anyone even bothered to check the size of Afghanistan??
How many Isaf troops are over there???
How can you control all that country with few soldiers??

[ed316]

Look.
If it was let's say a conflict where people where really were feed up with war i would help them with pleasure.

But we are talking about Afghanistan.
People over there are starting to get born with an Ak in their hands.:)

Has anyone even bothered to check the size of Afghanistan??
How many Isaf troops are over there???
How can you control all that country with few soldiers??

Apparently you don't follow the news and any current event so I leave you in you own little world. Cheers.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Ex-Yugoslavia is in the middle of Europe and not in Far east.
The way Europeans fight war is totally differnet.
We choose confrontation instead of war of attrition.
All Europeans Armies have central command.
They make war, they win/loose, they make agreements, war is over, case closed, now rebuild.

Where the countries are located doesn't have anything to do with what I am saying. I was citing the Balkans and Cyprus as examples of how our resolve can last many decades to bring about the change we desire.

Two the way we fight war v.s. the way the Taliban does make a difference in the tactics we employ. However, if we kill more of them than they do us then that suggests we are winning.



But in countries like Afghanistan war is going on for ever now.
You cannot win this wars.
America cannot win war of attritions cause Afghanis produce more fighters than US can send over there.
Not to mention that many citizens are not happy with sending their kids to the mountains of Afghanistan and that shows to the elections.
At same point we will have to redraw them.

Even if Taliban was able to produce many more poorly trained and semi-intelligent fighters than we can produce highly trained and effective soldiers. However, our soldiers kill MANY more taliban than they kill of us. Hence we are winning the war.

[TriggerHappy]

Apparently you don't follow the news and any current event so I leave you in you own little world. Cheers.
You mean recent news like this??
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4782140.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4618476.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4802052.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4733704.stm

Oh yes.
It makes anyone full of hope about the future.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Oh yes.
It makes anyone full of hope about the future.


Thank god people didn't give up when news of the Nazis acheiving victory in Poland came through.

[ed316]

You mean recent news like this??
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4782140.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4618476.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4802052.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4733704.stm

Oh yes.
It makes anyone full of hope about the future.

You expect a war to be won overnight? What fantasy are you living in?

How about looking at the BIG PICTURE. Thank god you are not in the military.

[TriggerHappy]

You expect a war to be won overnight?

It is my opinion about Afghanistan.


Thank god people didn't give up when news of the Nazis acheiving victory in Poland came through.

Little irrelivant but...
Grandfather was a partizan .......... and he has a captured luger pistol.
Nazis executed 8 members of my family in their backyard.

No one surrendered.

[Resevoir Hogs]

It is my opinion about Afghanistan.



Little irrelivant but...
Grandfather was a partizan .......... and he has a captured luger pistol.
Nazis executed 8 members of my family in their backyard.

No one surrendered.

Then perhaps you might go and meet the people of Afghanistan and extend them the same courtesy of not surrendering when confronted by a hostile enemy. Good day. Never surrender in anything big or small. Churchhill

[TriggerHappy]

Then perhaps you might go and meet the people of Afghanistan and extend them the same courtesy of not surrendering when confronted by a hostile enemy.
"Hostile enemy" are also afghanis and not some invaders.
They believe they are fighting the invader of their country.
They have lot of support among simple afghanis who sympathize their cause.

It is not as we are protecting them from some kind of foreign enemy.

[Resevoir Hogs]

"Hostile enemy" are also afghanis and not some invaders.
They believe they are fighting the invader of their country.
They have lot of support among simple afghanis who sympathize their cause.

It is not as we are protecting them from some kind of foreign enemy.

First off I know who our enemy is, some are Afghanis.

What data do you base your HUGE assumption that the Taliban enjoys a lot of support among simple Afghanis?

IF all you can respond with are news articles, then you need to actually go there to educate yourself on the tactical situation there.

Reality is that some Afghanis are against us, whereas others, and more the mainstream are with us. Average joe Afghan wants nothing more than peace for themselves and a productive life. Supporting the new Government and the Afghan National Army is the best way for that to happen.

When our guys go out on patrol they enjoy quite a lot of support from the locals in way of intelligence, cheering, and positive attitudes. The hostilities are only proof that we are closing with and destroying the enemy, as we should be doing.

[TriggerHappy]

First off I know who our enemy is, some are Afghanis.

What data do you base your HUGE assumption that the Taliban enjoys a lot of support among simple Afghanis?

IF all you can respond with are news articles, then you need to actually go there to educate yourself on the tactical situation there.

Reality is that some Afghanis are against us, whereas others, and more the mainstream are with us. Average joe Afghan wants nothing more than peace for themselves and a productive life. Supporting the new Government and the Afghan National Army is the best way for that to happen.

When our guys go out on patrol they enjoy quite a lot of support from the locals in way of intelligence, cheering, and positive attitudes. The hostilities are only proof that we are closing with and destroying the enemy, as we should be doing.
From an interview of a Taleban militia from BBC.

For the rest the future will show.
Either way I wish them good luck with their country.

[ed316]

From an interview of a Taleban militia from BBC.

For the rest the future will show.
Either way I wish them good luck with their country.


Says it all. rofl rofl

[TriggerHappy]

Says it all. rofl rofl

Are you denying the fact that taleban have local support??
You can't walk all the way from pakistan to attack a target in Qandahar or Kabul.
They have their bases in Afghanistan.

[Resevoir Hogs]

From an interview of a Taleban militia from BBC.

For the rest the future will show.
Either way I wish them good luck with their country.

Okay so you're going to believe the word of an enemy combatant?! Because he is totally going to go on international news and tell the truth about the situation there.

If you wish them good luck with building a free democratic society then you'd support the effort to combat the Taliban. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

[TriggerHappy]

Okay so you're going to believe the word of an enemy combatant?! Because he is totally going to go on international news and tell the truth about the situation there..

No I do not believe taleban or jihadist in what they say.
The article was not only about the taleban militia inteview.
It had further analisis of the situation.
I find BBC a very good resource of news.
I already showed some articles which give the general view.



If you wish them good luck with building a free democratic society then you'd support the effort to combat the Taliban.
As for democratic society(we are talking about Afghanistan here) is a a bit far fetched, but hope dies last.
Just no more wars,no insurgency and some stability at last.

[Resevoir Hogs]

No I do not believe taleban or jihadist in what they say.
The article was not only about the taleban militia inteview.
It had further analisis of the situation.
I find BBC a very good resource of news.
I already showed some articles which give the general view.


As for democratic society(we are talking about Afghanistan here) is a a bit far fetched, but hope dies last.
Just no more wars,no insurgency and some stability at last.

Again if you insist on basing your assumptions about the situation in Afghanistan on simple news reports you'll be very far from the present reality.

[TriggerHappy]

Again if you insist on basing your assumptions about the situation in Afghanistan on simple news reports you'll be very far from the present reality.

Let's say the simple report news i read are not true and afghanistan is going better.

But where do you base your assumptions about the situation in Afghanistan going better??
Just courius.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Let's say the simple report news i read are not true and afghanistan is going better.

But where do you base your assumptions about the situation in Afghanistan??
Just courius.

Real life experience of soldiers in the feild. Not the rantings of a taliban spokesman.

[TriggerHappy]

Real life experience of soldiers in the feild. Not the rantings of a taliban spokesman.
I already explained about the taleban militia inteview.
The article was not only about the militia but had analisis of the situation.

Read some of the latest news from Afghanistan.
http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=taleban+insurgent&scope=newsukfs&tab=news&x=33&y=9

[Resevoir Hogs]

I already explained about the taleban militia inteview.
The article was not only about the militia but had analisis of the situation.

Read some of the latest news from Afghanistan.
http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=taleban+insurgent&scope=newsukfs&tab=news&x=33&y=9

I've already read that this morning. Go here for some balance. http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1.asp?FlashEnabled=1&

[ed316]

I already explained about the taleban militia inteview.
The article was not only about the militia but had analisis of the situation.

Read some of the latest news from Afghanistan.
http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=taleban+insurgent&scope=newsukfs&tab=news&x=33&y=9

An upsurged in a southern province doesn't mean they have wide support like you previously stated.

[Resevoir Hogs]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4381260.stm

Looks like progress to me.

[Mailman]

* Iranian women don't consider themselves free because the Islamic dress code gotten more loose, they consider themselves free (er) because as oppose to a real Islamic state (like Saudi Arabia) they can drive, vote, play sports, work, study, etc.

You are being disingenious.

Iranian women CANNOT play sport with men...hell...the recent womens soccer event held in Tehran was only able to be watched by other women!

If you are going to defend a "real" islamic state...at least get your facts right!

Mailman

[kraf001]

You are being disingenious.

Iranian women CANNOT play sport with men...hell...the recent womens soccer event held in Tehran was only able to be watched by other women!

If you are going to defend a "real" islamic state...at least get your facts right!

Mailman
nice cheap shot there, quoting part of a paragraph and getting at it... do you want a cookie now?



* Iranian women don't consider themselves free because the Islamic dress code gotten more loose, they consider themselves free (er) because as oppose to a real Islamic state (like Saudi Arabia) they can drive, vote, play sports, work, study, etc... even with all this women in Iran are far from being satisfied and will fight for more rights... this is the attitude that should be aimed for by Muslim women in all Islamic states


freedom for women in Iran has nothing to do with Islamic state or Islam.. it wasn't given to them, it was taken by them! that was the point there and it had nothing to do with defending Islamic state.

p.s. the recent soccer games "in Iran" was part of the Islamic women games that didn't have men spectators at all.. but the recent West Asian women championship that Iran became second (took place in one of the Arab states) had men spectators… actually Iran attended with Islamic uniform, the Islamic state didn’t want to let them play.. but they “gained” the freedom to do so because they put the emphasis on playing soccer not wearing shirt and shorts…

[Ayura]

Or how about Dr.Ayman al-Zawahiri. Who once led the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and who merged it with Al Queda. He also preaches messages of genocide against all non-believers.

Lets get something straight here Ayura. I do not believe that the average muslim believes in these messages of hate, nor have I suggested they do. However you were asking about Islamic Extremists and for examples of them. I could provide you with examples of hundreds of them. However, there is no need for that since you seem to already be aware of them.

Is english your first language? Because I'm pretty sure that using the word extremist implies that they are not the mainstream nor the majority of muslim society. So don't try and defend muslims as a whole when there is no need to. I am fully aware that most are decent human beings.

But right now we are specifically talking about these radicals, so lets stay on topic shall we.


I only speak English. English is my mother-tongue. I feel absolutely insulted now, since you (and alot of other people on other forums) have responded to Muslims with that same "is english your first language" rhetoric. What made you think I spoke another language?



However you were asking about Islamic Extremists and for examples of them. I could provide you with examples of hundreds of them. However, there is no need for that since you seem to already be aware of them.

I am aware of a few, not a 'hundred' as you claim. You make it seem that every single Mosque is full of "hateful" Imams/Scholars etc, when that is the complete polar opposite of what is the actual truth.

[Hollis]

I only speak English. English is my mother-tongue. I feel absolutely insulted now, since you (and alot of other people on other forums) have responded to Muslims with that same "is english your first language" rhetoric. What made you think I spoke another language?


Interesting, I wish I had a dollar for every Muslim that told me if you did not speak Arabic, you can not understand the Qur'an.




I am aware of a few, not a 'hundred' as you claim. You make it seem that every single Mosque is full of "hateful" Imams/Scholars etc, when that is the complete polar opposite of what is the actual truth.

A few? in the last four(4) years there has been over 2467 Islamic terrorist's attacks, done by "a few"

[Resevoir Hogs]

I only speak English. English is my mother-tongue. I feel absolutely insulted now, since you (and alot of other people on other forums) have responded to Muslims with that same "is english your first language" rhetoric. What made you think I spoke another language?




I am aware of a few, not a 'hundred' as you claim. You make it seem that every single Mosque is full of "hateful" Imams/Scholars etc, when that is the complete polar opposite of what is the actual truth.

If you were insulted then I really don't care. Since you insulted me by taking my comments to mean that I was saying that every single mosque was a seed of hate.

I questioned your knowledge of the English language because you seem to have missed the point of the word extremist. When I am speaking about Islamic Extremists it is already implied that they are the few, the minority and not the speakers for muslims as a whole. That is what the word extremist implies.

You need to research the problem of Islamic extremists more if you are not familiar with at least 100 instances of radicals like Hamza and Zawahiri.

You need to get away from this defensive attitude that we are victimizing muslims by stereotyping them as terrorists and extremists. People are smarter than you seem to give them credit for. We all know that the terrorists and extremists are the small minority of muslims in the world. But that is beside the fact, they are still a problem and a severe threat. Just remember that.

[block52]

....


The Quran does not change - you can argue with muslims until you're blue in the face, but their doctrine does not change. Islam is forever at war with the non-muslim world.

Surah 9 is the second to last surah muhammad revealed before his death. His parting message to his countrymen is filled with vitriol and hatred. Surah 9 is an open declaration of war against all non-muslims and hypocrites:

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:12 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

9:14 Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

9:68 Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It will suffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment.

9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9:125 But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness, and they die while they are disbelievers.


These verses are true for all time. We are at war with islam, whether we acknowledge it or not. There is no way to explain away these verses.

[Mailman]

Well then its time it was changed! :D

Mailman

[Redux]

of course the koran does not change, what changes is how the mullahs or whoever reads it interprets it

[Lazy Lob]

I am aware of a few, not a 'hundred' as you claim. You make it seem that every single Mosque is full of "hateful" Imams/Scholars etc, when that is the complete polar opposite of what is the actual truth.

Not quite. I don't know about other countries but in your own country (Britain):


"There are more than 400 Islamic associations and societies in Britain operating through some 2,000 mosques. But scratch any one of them and you will find that it is, in fact, a cover for a political movement"

Click here for the rest of the article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2036284_1,00.html)

Meaning that if you go to a Mosque you more than likely have come into contact with these people.

[TriggerHappy]

Click here for the rest of the article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2036284_1,00.html)

One scary article. AGAIN.
They should concern only about theological ascpect and how to make their religion more peacefull instead of making every mosque a political club.




That is not all. This political Islam also has grievances about aspects of British and more broadly European domestic politics. It is unhappy that gays and lesbians are allowed to live without hindrance. It does not like the way women are allowed to “get cheeky” and even argue with their menfolk.
It is scandalised by the West’s “corruption and debauchery” and that there is no “moral force” to set strict limits to individual liberties.


This is the worst part.
They try to impose their way of living to the others.
If we are an "immoral place" why do they even risk their lives to step their foot in Europe???

[shire19]

The Quran does not change - you can argue with muslims until you're blue in the face, but their doctrine does not change. Islam is forever at war with the non-muslim world.

Surah 9 is the second to last surah muhammad revealed before his death. His parting message to his countrymen is filled with vitriol and hatred. Surah 9 is an open declaration of war against all non-muslims and hypocrites:

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:12 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

9:14 Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

9:68 Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It will suffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment.

9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9:125 But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness, and they die while they are disbelievers.


These verses are true for all time. We are at war with islam, whether we acknowledge it or not. There is no way to explain away these verses.

Oh gee.. Guess we're at war with almost every religion then *sigh*...

And actually these verses can be explained, try googling about the definitions of Surah 9.. There are dozens of articles regarding this Surah and why Allah revealed it..

[Ayura]

Interesting, I wish I had a dollar for every Muslim that told me if you did not speak Arabic, you can not understand the Qur'an.

That is not true at all. Only certain meaning is lost.


A few? in the last four(4) years there has been over 2467 Islamic terrorist's attacks, done by "a few"

[b]I believe that the religionofpeace.com website has been argued over before. Try a search for it.




.......................

[Ayura]

The Quran does not change - you can argue with muslims until you're blue in the face, but their doctrine does not change. Islam is forever at war with the non-muslim world.

Surah 9 is the second to last surah muhammad revealed before his death. His parting message to his countrymen is filled with vitriol and hatred. Surah 9 is an open declaration of war against all non-muslims and hypocrites:

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:12 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

9:14 Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

9:68 Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It will suffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment.

9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9:125 But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness, and they die while they are disbelievers.


These verses are true for all time. We are at war with islam, whether we acknowledge it or not. There is no way to explain away these verses.


Give me the Fiqh and Tafsir on this entire Surah. :)

[Resevoir Hogs]

Ayura I've read enough of your posts now to see that all you ever do is try to defend Islam and pretend as if nothing is wrong.

Well stop, no one sane here actually thinks that Islam as a whole is the problem. It is the extremist elements within Islam that are the problem. You should be more concerned with dealing with those bad elements rather than how the west perceives Islam.

[block52]

Give me the Fiqh and Tafsir on this entire Surah. :)


lol. I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me on this one.

So you want me to post the tafsir?

If you're disagreeing with me, then I'm afraid the tafsir will not help your case.

It actually backs up my claims. I will post some for people to read:





From Islamonline (http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/viewSurah.asp?hSurahID=52)

Problems of the Period
If we keep in view the preceding background, we can easily find out the problems that were confronting the Community at that time. They were:


1. to make the whole of Arabia a perfect Dar-ul-Islam,
2. to extend the influence of Islam to the adjoining countries,
3. to crush the mischiefs of the hypocrites, and
4. to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the non- Muslim world.


1. Now that the administration of the whole of Arabia had come in the hands of the Believers, and all the opposing powers had become helpless, it was necessary to make a clear declaration of that policy which was to be adopted to make her a perfect Dar-ul-Islam. Therefore the following measures were adopted:

a. A clear declaration was made that all the treaties with the mushriks were abolished and the Muslims would be released from the treaty obligations with them after a respite of four months.(vv. 1-3). This declaration was necessary for uprooting completely the system of life based on shirk and to make Arabia exclusively the center of Islam so that it should not in any way interfere with the spirit of Islam nor become an internal danger for it.

b. A decree was issued that the guardianship of the Ka`abah, which held central position in all the affairs of Arabia, should be wrested from the mushriks and placed permanently in the hands of the Believers, (vv. 12-18) that all the customs and practices of the shirk of the era of 'ignorance' should be forcibly abolished: that the mushriks should not be allowed even to come near the "House" (v. 28). This was to eradicate every trace of shirk from the "House" that was dedicated exclusively to the worship of Allah.

c.The evil practice of Nasi, by which they used to tamper with the sacred months in the days of 'ignorance', was forbidden as an act of kufr(v. 37). This was also to serve as an example to the Muslims for eradicating every vestige of the customs of ignorance from the life of Arabia (and afterwards from the lives of the Muslims everywhere).

2. In order to enable the Muslims to extend the influence of Islam outside Arabia, they were enjoined to crush with sword the non- Muslim powers and to force them to accept the sovereignty of the Islamic State. As the great Roman and Iranian Empires were the biggest hindrances in the way, a conflict with them was inevitable. The object of Jihad was not to coerce them to accept Islam they were free to accept or not to accept it-but to prevent them from thrusting forcibly their deviations upon others and the coming generations. The Muslims were enjoined to tolerate their misguidance only to the extent that they might have the freedom to remain misguided, if they chose to be so, provided that they paid Jizyah (v. 29) as a sign of their subjugation to the Islamic State.

3.The third important problem was to crush the mischiefs of the hypocrites, who had hitherto been tolerated in spite of their flagrant crimes. Now that there was practically no pressure upon them from outside, the Muslims were enjoined to treat them openly as disbelievers (v. 73). Accordingly, the Holy Prophet set on fire the house of Swailim, where the hypocrites used to gather for consultations in order to dissuade the people from joining the expedition to Tabuk. Likewise on his return from Tabuk, he ordered to pull down and burn the 'Mosque' that had been built to serve as a cover for the hypocrites for hatching plots against the true Believers.

4.In order to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the whole non-Muslim world, it was necessary to cure them even of that slight weakness of faith from which they were still suffering. For there could be no greater internal danger to the Islamic Community than the weakness of faith, especially where it was going to engage itself single-handed in a' conflict with the whole non-Muslim world. That is why those people who had lagged behind in the Campaign to Tabuk or had shown the least negligence were severely taken to task, and were considered as hypocrites if they had no plausible excuse for not fulfilling that obligation. Moreover, a clear declaration was made that in future the sole criterion of a Muslim's faith shall be the exertions he makes for the uplift of the Word of Allah and the role he plays in the conflict between Islam and kufr. Therefore, if anyone will show any hesitation in sacrificing his life, money, time and energies, his faith shall not be regarded as genuine. (vv. 81-96). If the above-mentioned important points are kept in view during the study of this Surah, it will facilitate the understanding of its contents.

[Ayura]

lol. I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me on this one.

So you want me to post the tasfir?

If you're disagreeing with me, then I'm afraid the tasfir will not help your case.

It actually backs up my claims. I will post some for people to read:


Ok, explain to me the terms: 'Jihad'.

Also - explain to me the mindset of the majority of the Arab-Pagans and explain how their government was run, etc. Also, explain to me how they treated the Prophet (pbuh).

:)