What Do Helicopters Do To Survive?

[Sayeret]

What do helos do when they are fighting in an environment with SAMs and AAAs. Don't act stupid and say "they get shot down" or something like that.

[EvanL]

What do helos do when they are fighting in an environment with SAMs and AAAs. Don't act stupid and say "they get shot down" or something like that.I believe they use chaff and other self defense methods. They are usually trained in certain manoveurs which allow them to exit a battlefield post haste.
But dont ask me, im not a pilot.

[SOG]

stay fast and low, pop up and down, run the land, work in conjunction with other forces to take care of pesky emplacements. usually a good pre- air strike helps. in one of the apache forums here or helo ones they were discussing apaches getting hit in iraq by ground but your talking more heavy anti air forces. also are what kind of helo? attack? transport? i imagine that would decide if the helo fights back or fights at all.

[FallenAngel]

Attack helicopters- use AWACs to avoid high threat areas, fly fast and fly low. The AH-1W pilots on the Scott O'Grady mission reporting having to pull up to avoid collision with two story houses.

Transport helicopters- use AWACs to avoid high threat areas. fly fast and fly low. A 160th SOAR Blackhawk on an emergency SEAL ectraction in GW1 reported having to pull up to avoid collision with camels

Chaff and/or flares might help with SAMs. For AA, the choper would probably return enough fire to get the bad guys to duck and then get the hell out of the area.

[usa320]

Most AH-1's and AH-64's do the following:

1. Flight Profile- THe choppers stay low (sometimes like 10 feet off the deck) to avoid SAMs and to maintain the element of surprise, and fly fast. In Urban or hilly terrain they stay masked behind buildings or hills/trees while using datalink from scout choppers or ground forces to acquire targets. Once the target is acquired either with radar, DTV or FLIR, they pop up (unmask) just long enough to fire their salvo, then they mask again. Also, there is an option with Longbows called LOAL, or Lock On After Launch, which involved the helo lofting a hellfire up pretty high, then moving to a safer area to acquire the target after the missile is fired. Also, changes in mission profile are used, this way the choppers never fly over the same place twice, in other words they dont follow the same route in and out.

2. Mission Planning- Serious threats like SA-2's and SA-6's are usually taken out prior to any chopper mission by Fixed Wings or just routed around. Thus leaving the choppers to deal only with MANPADs, AAA and Light SAMs like the SA-9 or SA-8. They also usually perform their missions in large packages. maybe 8 Apaches as strikers, 2-4 OH-58's scouting for them, plus Fixed Wings are usually close by in case of an airborne threat or if cover is needed. Missions are planned with cooperation of the ground forces especially. Also data from Predators and JSTARs is a factor in planning. US Attack helicopters have the advantage at night.

3. EMCON- To reduce the possibility of being tracked on radar even further, the Choppers usually leave their radars off until it is time to fire their weapons, or use them only in short bursts. IR shields are placed over the engine to reduce the amount of heat emitted.

4. Counter Measures- Radar and IR Jammers are used on the Apaches, along with traditional chaff and flare. Also they may have the added support of ECM jamming from EA-6B's .

[Desertpilot]

USA320 OPSEC dude, OPSEC.

[AFACadet]

That's all public source material... There's nothing wrong with what he wrote.

[Desertpilot]

Really? Hmm, can you point me to it?

[Flagg]

I don't think this violates OPSEC as all of this information can be found open source through Google in 5 seconds.

One important "defense" is terrain.

Utilising a flight path which makes the enemy ground defender's job as hard as possible is something thus far overlooked in the thread.

Flying NOE(Nap Of Earth) to avoid localized air defense is extremely hard on airframes....anything that reduces unneccessary wear and tear on the airframes/crew/passengers is helpful.

But flying practice NOE(as a passenger) is better than any rollercoaster ride I've ever been on:

http://www.mortgage.net.nz/006_5A.JPG

[AFACadet]

Pick up "Janes all the worlds avionics" "Janes all the worlds aircraft" go to sites like globalsecurity or fas.org, read some books on army aviation and tactics, play some helicopter sims (the good ones), read what they put in the news, or read stuff in good mags like Aviation Week and Space Technology.

There is nothing that USA320 wrote that I have not seen in the above sources over a 5-10 year time span.

[Flagg]

Really? Hmm, can you point me to it?

Here ya go DesertPilot:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/CSJ.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1988/MMB.htm

17Department of the Army, Aircraft Battlefield Countermeasures and
Survivability, FM 1-101

Found that in 2 minutes....using top secret intelligence gathering tool called: Google

[Desertpilot]

Let me be a little more clear; Perhaps I'm just a paranoid guy who's been shot at a few too many times, but when somone posts things like this on a public forum, it makes me a bit uneasy. I know it can be found all over the place, FAS has TONS of topics on tactics as well as globalsecurity. But that dosen't make it any easier to see, when our guys (and galls) are getting pot shots taken at them by every Tom **** and Harry in the AO.

This just makes it a bit easier to put it all together if someone were to say, want to pass on just what that loud American machine is going to do the next time it flys over Omar's house at 02:00.

And thanks Flagg for the uber secret Google technology... ;)

[martinexsquaddie]

watch black hawk down
hear evil yankee chopper coming point ak in general direction
start shooting

[Kingpin]

usa230 wrote things similar to Soviet/Russian methods.

Also

I've read good article of Soviet pilot who flew on Mi-24 on Afganistan. He wrote a lot about AAA and SAMs countermeasures.

First of all he stated that with flares and chaffs turned on there was almost zero probability to get hit by Stinger missile.

Even if you get hit there are good chances to make emergency landing (author pesonally did it). He was hit by Stinger in the point behind cockpit which some people (idiots) described as weak point which been hit leads to destruction of helicopter. He landed safely and helo later was repaired.

His mate helo provided cover for him while he awaited ground forces. And during this mujaheedins shot four Stingers at him and all missed.

If they should attack area with heavy AA defences they often employed circle formation of attack in readiness to supress any AA position opened fire.

[Flagg]

No worries DesertPilot....

I'm with you 100% on the truly sensitive stuff......

After having been here for a couple of months I've found everything I've read so far falling into the Basic 101 Open Source category.....or simply opinion/speculation.

[lekomin]

Most AH-1's and AH-64's do the following:
....
.,..
.
well there is one major difference between US Marines AH-1's and US Army AH-64's. The former use their guided missiles on the move whearas Apache helos usually pop up from an obstacle to fire. As Iraq has shown the first attack drill is much better by far. Look at the losses sustained by Apache and Cobra helicopters.. the difference is large and eventhough Apache is a much more versatile and more modern one, it was much easier to shoot down. The only difference are the different tactics.
take care
lekomin inc

[stuntman]

What do helos do when they are fighting in an environment with SAMs and AAAs. Don't act stupid and say "they get shot down" or something like that.
Well the first thing that they teach you is that THEY GET SHOT DOWN!" sorry I couldn't resist..

[Kingpin]

What do helos do when they are fighting in an environment with SAMs and AAAs. Don't act stupid and say "they get shot down" or something like that.
Well the first thing that they teach you is that THEY GET SHOT DOWN!" sorry I couldn't resist..

How much was your scores at last IQ check? :roll:

[marktigger]

Have read most of the stuff discussed in open source magazines available from most Newsagents and am aware of a few others but as the haven't been mentioned i'm not discussing them.

[stuntman]

What do helos do when they are fighting in an environment with SAMs and AAAs. Don't act stupid and say "they get shot down" or something like that.
Well the first thing that they teach you is that THEY GET SHOT DOWN!" sorry I couldn't resist..

How much was your scores at last IQ check? :roll:

Higher then a AK's accuracy rate!

[Kingpin]

What do helos do when they are fighting in an environment with SAMs and AAAs. Don't act stupid and say "they get shot down" or something like that.
Well the first thing that they teach you is that THEY GET SHOT DOWN!" sorry I couldn't resist..

How much was your scores at last IQ check? :roll:

Higher then a AK's accuracy rate!

You sooo weak in shooting from AK. rofl

[stuntman]

What do helos do when they are fighting in an environment with SAMs and AAAs. Don't act stupid and say "they get shot down" or something like that.
Well the first thing that they teach you is that THEY GET SHOT DOWN!" sorry I couldn't resist..

How much was your scores at last IQ check? :roll:

Higher then a AK's accuracy rate!

You sooo weak in shooting from AK. rofl

I've actually shot a AK74 and it's not such a bad rifle and I'm actually pretty good with acuracy, so you figure my IQ is high.. :hug: