Chechen Fighters

[TR1]

Came across his article...for people who think that the Russian army is the only human rights abuser in Chechnya.
Human Rights Watch has nailed the russian army repeatedly, but finally realise where a lrage portion of the blame lays.

(Nazran, January 13, 2000) -- Human Rights Watch has found that Islamic fighters in Chechnya are abusing civilians and endangering their lives by provoking Russian counter-attacks on civilian neighborhoods.Chechen fighters have repeatedly beaten and threatened civilians who attempted to spare their villages from Russian bombardment. They have also endangered civilians by taking positions in areas that were heavily populated by civilians and firing at Russian aircraft. "Chechen fighters are endangering civilians by trying to hide in their midst," said Holly Cartner, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch's Europe and Central Asia Division. "But they are bound by the laws of war as much as any combatants. We call upon the fighters to take all necessary precautions to minimize civilian casualties."
As in the 1994-1996 war, Chechen civilians, chiefly the village elders, often try to prevent the destruction of their villages by approaching the Russian military and by encouraging Chechen combatants to leave their villages. Human Rights Watch has learned that in at least four villages, Chechen fighters, or "Wahabbis" (as they are commonly called in Chechnya, due to their alleged conservative interpretation of Islam), have beaten and threatened civilians who asked the fighters to leave.
In Dyshne-Vedeno, a village in southern Chechnya near the Dagestani border, Islamic fighters detained and beat the head of the village administration and his sixteen-year-old son after he met with local Russian commanders to seek an end to Russian bombing there. According to village resident "Magomet" (not his real name), on December 17, 1999 the fighters detained the official, Ramzan, and his son. The latter was found severely beaten the next morning near the village cemetery, but Ramzan himself was not released. When a large group of villagers, including Magomet, tried to negotiate Ramzan's release with Salman Basayev (the father of Chechen commander Shamil Basayev), they were told to go away. When villagers tried again on the following day (Dec 19) to meet with Chechen commanders, the fighters fired at the feet of the crowd and forced them to retreat. Ramzan was released a week later, and told Magomet that he had been severely beaten.
Magomet told Human Rights Watch about other abuses committed by Chechen fighters under the command of Khattab, one of the principle commanders in Chechnya who is believed to be from the Middle East, and Shamil Basayev in Dyshne-Vedeno. In early January, Magomet found the body of a Russian soldier whose throat had been cut in the village's Oktiabrski district, across the road from a group of Wahabbi fighters. When he asked the fighters why the soldier had been killed, they replied that it was their standard practice to slit the throats of captured Russian soldiers. The execution of prisoners of war is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Conventions and constitutes a war crime.
Magomet also said that Wahabbi fighters frequently fired on Russian war planes flying overhead, provoking the planes into bombing the village. "It is as though they are . . .giving them an excuse to bomb the village, " he said. According to Magomet, Wahabbi fighters sometimes deployed anti-aircraft weapons inside villagers' backyards, drawing war planes into bombing civilian areas of the village. On Friday, January 7, two Russian war planes bombed the mosque in Dyshne-Vedeno during the mid-afternoon prayer session (at about 2:30 p.m.), causing eleven deaths, all civilians. Many civilians were trapped in the village, unable to leave because of the continuous fighting and shelling in the area.
Magomet's account of Chechen and Russian abuses in the village could not be independently confirmed because few villagers from Dyshne-Vedeno have apparently been able to travel to Ingushetia. However, his detailed account was consistent with accounts received about similar abuses committed by Chechen fighters elsewhere in Chechnya. On January 3 at about 4:00 a.m., Chechen fighters returned to the village of Ermolovski, just west of the Chechen capital, Grozny. "Akhmed" (not his real name) described what happened when the village elders tried to appeal to the fighters, begging them to leave the village and spare its destruction:
The fighters didn't listen to the elders, they didn't listen to anyone. We tried and tried to talk to them, so that they wouldn't come to the village. We kneeled before them. They told us, 'Get out [of the village] if you want to live, we're going to fight here.' What happened? People were killed and the village destroyed. ... All the villagers who could, gathered in the center. In response the fighters began firing into the air, and into the ground saying 'Disperse, disperse,' trying to scare us. The elders said 'Why should we leave? Let's talk, you are all our sons and brothers, think about that.' The fighters said, 'No, we're going to fight.'
The villagers dispersed, and Russian forces began shelling the village the next day, causing civilian casualties, according to Akhmed.
On December 18, civilians in Staraya Sunzha, an outlying district of Grozny, attempted to install a checkpoint on the road leading to Grozny to keep Chechen fighters and lawless elements out of their neighborhood. According to Ali Murdalov, who witnessed the events, Chechen commander Shamil Basayev personally came to the checkpoint the next day with a group of about forty fighters, accused the villages of supporting pro-Moscow Chechen commander Beslan Gantemirov, and demanded that the villagers hand over a large number of weapons (which Murdalov says they did not posses). When the villagers attempted to approach Basayev, his fighters fired at the feet of the civilians to force them to retreat. A scuffle broke out after Basayev ordered all the men arrested. Basayev's troops arrested eighteen civilians, and the next day released all but one, whom they detained for a week and beat repeatedly. According to Murdalov, who saw the man after he was released, "He had bruises all over and some of his ribs were broken." The civilians were forced to remove their roadblock and grant Chechen fighters free access to their neighborhood.
Chechen fighters similarly refused to leave the village of Alkhan-Yurt in November, before the Russian forces seized the town and went on a rampage, looting many homes and killing at least nineteen civilians, many of whom were summarily executed by Russian soldiers for resisting looting (see Human Rights Watch's December 28 letter to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin).
Waha Muradov, a respected elder and the Mullah (Muslim religious leader) of Alkhan-Yurt, told Human Rights Watch that during the last two weeks of November he repeatedly tried to persuade the fighters to leave Alkhan-Yurt. He first met with the fighters on November 16, telling them that the Russian forces were on a ridge overlooking the village and would destroy the village by shelling. "I begged them on behalf of the village, please leave, this is no place for you to fight." The rebel commander replied that he would not retreat, and when the Mullah insisted, the fighters started firing their weapons in the air, threatening to shoot him and the other village elders if they did not leave immediately: "We met three times with the fighters, every time they kept saying the same thing, that they were not going to leave. Everyone is afraid of them." The Mullah and other villagers from Alkhan-Yurt claimed that there were many non-Chechens fighting with Chechen forces, including Dagestanis, Uzbek, Kazakhs, and men from the Middle East.
"Valentina" (not her real name), a sixty-year-old woman from Grozny, told Human Rights Watch that she had seen Chechen fighters in the capital fire at war planes flying overhead, thereby endangering civilians in the neighborhood: "They climbed up onto the roof of the school and brought the machine-gun up onto the roof and started to shoot at the planes. Then they left. The school was left undamaged, but in place of two houses [next to the school], there were two large craters. The houses were destroyed by direct hits." On another occasion, according to Valentina, Chechen fighters were driving around Grozny in a heavy-duty military truck with a twin-barreled large machine gun. A plane flew by and the fighters started to shoot at it. People came out onto the streets and told the fighters not to shoot at the planes because the machine-gun fire would not reach the high-flying planes, but would draw fire. After the fighters drove away, the planes bombed the area.
Human Rights Watch stressed that the abuses by Chechen fighters could not serve to justify the widespread indiscriminate shelling and bombing campaign of the Russian forces. "No matter how provocative Chechen conduct may be, it cannot justify the targeting of civilian objects by Russian forces," said Cartner. "Civilians often find themselves caught between Chechen fighters who refuse to leave their towns, and Russian forces who are bombing and shelling their homes. Both sides need to take the necessary steps to limit the impact of their fighting on the civilian population, as required by the laws of war."

[oregongrunt]

Sounds like the same tactics they are using in Iraq.

[SeanAshi]

Chechen terrorist are the most cruel and inhumane bastards in the world.

[Alan]

Nah, they are good guys, 500 ossetian children can testify for that.

Oh no, wait, no they can't.

I apologise if my bitter sarcasm offended anybody.

[LibertyUnites]

interesting, i stand by russia in their fight. i just have one problem with it... bombing villages russian aircraft recieve fire from? if, say, the US was to bomb a city in Iraq because a MANPAD downed an aircraft (which has happened already) we would catch absolute hell for it

[Heron]

Chechen terrorist are the most cruel and inhumane bastards in the world.
x2
terrorist is terrorist

[eatmars]

they are both the same

[Jani.R]

Nobody has claimed that chetchen insurgents aren't **** on earth, but you can't say that russians are much better than them.

[sergey31]

Nobody has claimed that chetchen insurgents aren't **** on earth, but you can't say that russians are much better than them.

Simply put, you're a retarded dumbass.

[Jani.R]

Simply put, you're a retarded dumbass.
Then it makes two of us.


http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,,1705516,00.html

http://www.amnesty.org/russia/chechnya.html

EDIT : rock on, russia strong!!

[Snoshi]

Nobody has claimed that chetchen insurgents aren't **** on earth, but you can't say that russians are much better than them.

Opinion of a finn about Russia is always the same...

[sergey31]

Then it makes two of us.


http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,,1705516,00.html

http://www.amnesty.org/russia/chechnya.html

EDIT : rock on, russia strong!!
No, just liberal tree-huger like yourself who read "human rights" reports and publications...... How many of that kind did Russian forces have killed? None, could not be said the same about "Chechen rebel scum" who chased those whakos out of Chechnya in the first place.

I don't feel compassionate when one of them does get kidnapped and killed and their own organization fails to report on what really happen because it might uncover bigger picture like "Hey world, we are bunch or retarded jackasses.

Yes, not only Russia is stronger but bigger as well..... Yes! Rock ON with caribou!!!

[koozya]

Jani u r an idiot

[TR1]

Nobody has claimed that chetchen insurgents aren't **** on earth, but you can't say that russians are much better than them.


great comment. you seem to know the chechen conflict intimately. like all finns.

[Jani.R]

great comment. you seem to know the chechen conflict intimately. like all finns.

Don't forget that we have been funding them all along, acording to some russians. :|

[Morboute]

Don't forget that we have been funding them all along, acording to some russians. :|

AHA!!! I KNEW IT!!!

Finaly sweden got a reason to invade finland!


meh, after that school massacre i cant say i care much about what the Russians do to those terrorists.

[TR1]

AHA!!! I KNEW IT!!!

Finaly sweden got a reason to invade finland!


meh, after that school massacre i cant say i care much about what the Russians do to those terrorists.
\
haha hear that finland!!!!!!!!! you are surrounded!!!!! by feminist socialist on one side and angry bears on the other!!

[sir-chimp]

\
haha hear that finland!!!!!!!!! you are surrounded!!!!! by feminist socialist on one side and angry bears on the other!!


scientific fact - angry bears are angry because they have tiny *****es.

scientific fact - feminist are feminist because they have large *****es

scientific fact - socialist have no *****es

do the math

[TR1]

scientific fact - angry bears are angry because they have tiny *****es.

scientific fact - feminist are feminist because they have large *****es

scientific fact - socialist have no *****es

do the math

after plugging it into my Ti-83PLus I get.............................your ***** is over 9000 miles long, but most of it is in the 5th dimension.

[Alan]

Interesting question..

If the Chechens hate Russians so much and want liberation from them, why did the kill Ossetian children. Ossetians are not slavic, nevermind Russian. They are the descendants of scytho-sarmatian nomads, actually, the last remnants of the scythians on this planet.

[vi]

Interesting question..

If the Chechens hate Russians so much and want liberation from them, why did the kill Ossetian children. Ossetians are not slavic, nevermind Russian. They are the descendants of scytho-sarmatian nomads, actually, the last remnants of the scythians on this planet.
well I think that there is an obvious answer, and that is to create more tensions in the already steaming caucus region

some analysts believe that if there is another caucasian war, then russia will lose territory

[daily666]

Came across his article...for people who think that the Russian army is the only human rights abuser in Chechnya.
Human Rights Watch has nailed the russian army repeatedly, but finally realise where a lrage portion of the blame lays.

(Nazran, January 13, 2000) -- Human Rights Watch has found that Islamic fighters in Chechnya are abusing civilians and endangering their lives by provoking Russian counter-attacks on civilian neighborhoods.Chechen fighters have repeatedly beaten and threatened civilians who attempted to spare their villages from Russian bombardment. They have also endangered civilians by taking positions in areas that were heavily populated by civilians and firing at Russian aircraft. "Chechen fighters are endangering civilians by trying to hide in their midst," said Holly Cartner, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch's Europe and Central Asia Division. "But they are bound by the laws of war as much as any combatants. We call upon the fighters to take all necessary precautions to minimize civilian casualties."
As in the 1994-1996 war, Chechen civilians, chiefly the village elders, often try to prevent the destruction of their villages by approaching the Russian military and by encouraging Chechen combatants to leave their villages. Human Rights Watch has learned that in at least four villages, Chechen fighters, or "Wahabbis" (as they are commonly called in Chechnya, due to their alleged conservative interpretation of Islam), have beaten and threatened civilians who asked the fighters to leave.
In Dyshne-Vedeno, a village in southern Chechnya near the Dagestani border, Islamic fighters detained and beat the head of the village administration and his sixteen-year-old son after he met with local Russian commanders to seek an end to Russian bombing there. According to village resident "Magomet" (not his real name), on December 17, 1999 the fighters detained the official, Ramzan, and his son. The latter was found severely beaten the next morning near the village cemetery, but Ramzan himself was not released. When a large group of villagers, including Magomet, tried to negotiate Ramzan's release with Salman Basayev (the father of Chechen commander Shamil Basayev), they were told to go away. When villagers tried again on the following day (Dec 19) to meet with Chechen commanders, the fighters fired at the feet of the crowd and forced them to retreat. Ramzan was released a week later, and told Magomet that he had been severely beaten.
Magomet told Human Rights Watch about other abuses committed by Chechen fighters under the command of Khattab, one of the principle commanders in Chechnya who is believed to be from the Middle East, and Shamil Basayev in Dyshne-Vedeno. In early January, Magomet found the body of a Russian soldier whose throat had been cut in the village's Oktiabrski district, across the road from a group of Wahabbi fighters. When he asked the fighters why the soldier had been killed, they replied that it was their standard practice to slit the throats of captured Russian soldiers. The execution of prisoners of war is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Conventions and constitutes a war crime.
Magomet also said that Wahabbi fighters frequently fired on Russian war planes flying overhead, provoking the planes into bombing the village. "It is as though they are . . .giving them an excuse to bomb the village, " he said. According to Magomet, Wahabbi fighters sometimes deployed anti-aircraft weapons inside villagers' backyards, drawing war planes into bombing civilian areas of the village. On Friday, January 7, two Russian war planes bombed the mosque in Dyshne-Vedeno during the mid-afternoon prayer session (at about 2:30 p.m.), causing eleven deaths, all civilians. Many civilians were trapped in the village, unable to leave because of the continuous fighting and shelling in the area.
Magomet's account of Chechen and Russian abuses in the village could not be independently confirmed because few villagers from Dyshne-Vedeno have apparently been able to travel to Ingushetia. However, his detailed account was consistent with accounts received about similar abuses committed by Chechen fighters elsewhere in Chechnya. On January 3 at about 4:00 a.m., Chechen fighters returned to the village of Ermolovski, just west of the Chechen capital, Grozny. "Akhmed" (not his real name) described what happened when the village elders tried to appeal to the fighters, begging them to leave the village and spare its destruction:
The fighters didn't listen to the elders, they didn't listen to anyone. We tried and tried to talk to them, so that they wouldn't come to the village. We kneeled before them. They told us, 'Get out [of the village] if you want to live, we're going to fight here.' What happened? People were killed and the village destroyed. ... All the villagers who could, gathered in the center. In response the fighters began firing into the air, and into the ground saying 'Disperse, disperse,' trying to scare us. The elders said 'Why should we leave? Let's talk, you are all our sons and brothers, think about that.' The fighters said, 'No, we're going to fight.'
The villagers dispersed, and Russian forces began shelling the village the next day, causing civilian casualties, according to Akhmed.
On December 18, civilians in Staraya Sunzha, an outlying district of Grozny, attempted to install a checkpoint on the road leading to Grozny to keep Chechen fighters and lawless elements out of their neighborhood. According to Ali Murdalov, who witnessed the events, Chechen commander Shamil Basayev personally came to the checkpoint the next day with a group of about forty fighters, accused the villages of supporting pro-Moscow Chechen commander Beslan Gantemirov, and demanded that the villagers hand over a large number of weapons (which Murdalov says they did not posses). When the villagers attempted to approach Basayev, his fighters fired at the feet of the civilians to force them to retreat. A scuffle broke out after Basayev ordered all the men arrested. Basayev's troops arrested eighteen civilians, and the next day released all but one, whom they detained for a week and beat repeatedly. According to Murdalov, who saw the man after he was released, "He had bruises all over and some of his ribs were broken." The civilians were forced to remove their roadblock and grant Chechen fighters free access to their neighborhood.
Chechen fighters similarly refused to leave the village of Alkhan-Yurt in November, before the Russian forces seized the town and went on a rampage, looting many homes and killing at least nineteen civilians, many of whom were summarily executed by Russian soldiers for resisting looting (see Human Rights Watch's December 28 letter to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin).
Waha Muradov, a respected elder and the Mullah (Muslim religious leader) of Alkhan-Yurt, told Human Rights Watch that during the last two weeks of November he repeatedly tried to persuade the fighters to leave Alkhan-Yurt. He first met with the fighters on November 16, telling them that the Russian forces were on a ridge overlooking the village and would destroy the village by shelling. "I begged them on behalf of the village, please leave, this is no place for you to fight." The rebel commander replied that he would not retreat, and when the Mullah insisted, the fighters started firing their weapons in the air, threatening to shoot him and the other village elders if they did not leave immediately: "We met three times with the fighters, every time they kept saying the same thing, that they were not going to leave. Everyone is afraid of them." The Mullah and other villagers from Alkhan-Yurt claimed that there were many non-Chechens fighting with Chechen forces, including Dagestanis, Uzbek, Kazakhs, and men from the Middle East.
"Valentina" (not her real name), a sixty-year-old woman from Grozny, told Human Rights Watch that she had seen Chechen fighters in the capital fire at war planes flying overhead, thereby endangering civilians in the neighborhood: "They climbed up onto the roof of the school and brought the machine-gun up onto the roof and started to shoot at the planes. Then they left. The school was left undamaged, but in place of two houses [next to the school], there were two large craters. The houses were destroyed by direct hits." On another occasion, according to Valentina, Chechen fighters were driving around Grozny in a heavy-duty military truck with a twin-barreled large machine gun. A plane flew by and the fighters started to shoot at it. People came out onto the streets and told the fighters not to shoot at the planes because the machine-gun fire would not reach the high-flying planes, but would draw fire. After the fighters drove away, the planes bombed the area.
Human Rights Watch stressed that the abuses by Chechen fighters could not serve to justify the widespread indiscriminate shelling and bombing campaign of the Russian forces. "No matter how provocative Chechen conduct may be, it cannot justify the targeting of civilian objects by Russian forces," said Cartner. "Civilians often find themselves caught between Chechen fighters who refuse to leave their towns, and Russian forces who are bombing and shelling their homes. Both sides need to take the necessary steps to limit the impact of their fighting on the civilian population, as required by the laws of war."


Hey, this is 2000 info, how does it look now, is it any safer for the civilians these days? I'm asking because I saw some kind of documentary couple of weeks ago (TV not sure what channel) and what they said is that the war in Chechnya went totally out of control. Is it true?

[nick_ua]

Sounds like the same tactics they are using in Iraq.
if iraqi, what ever you call them, will use same tactics and been trained, equiped and financed like Chechen US army will have way more casualtes in this war.

[TR1]

if iraqi, what ever you call them, will use same tactics and been trained, equiped and financed like Chechen US army will have way more casualtes in this war.

yeah!!!!!!!! the Iraqis are complete pussies compared to the Chechens in morale, training, weapons, and tactics.

[Denat]

Once I believed that chechen fighters are fighting for freedom and my symphaty was with them.

But some time ago I've seen a short movie on which chechens decapitated a russian POW with a bayonnet, basically cuting his head off.
He was still consious during this painful execution. Poor guy, may he RIP.
It was a cruel, inhuman and barbarous crime disposed to inflict suffering of this poor human being.

And now I say - may those chechen fighters who did this burn in hell for this action!

[SeanAshi]

Once I believed that chechen fighters are fighting for freedom and my symphaty was with them.

But some time ago I've seen a short movie on which chechens decapitated a russian POW with a bayonnet, basically cuting his head off.
He was still consious during this painful execution. Poor guy, may he RIP.
It was a cruel, inhuman and barbarous crime disposed to inflict suffering of this poor human being.

And now I say - may those chechen fighters who did this burn in hell for this action!
And don't forget about the 156 school children in Beslan massacred by them Chechens.

[Denat]

Yep :-(
RIP to them also

[daily666]

And don't forget about the 156 school children in Beslan massacred by them Chechens.


I thought there were many more! Like 300 or so. Anyways RIP to them.

[Noble713]

yeah!!!!!!!! the Iraqis are complete pussies compared to the Chechens in morale, training, weapons, and tactics.

Haven't there been noticeable numbers of Chechens captured/killed in both Iraq and Afghanistan? I wouldn't be surprised if they are who most of the insurgents picked up their skills from.

[Rin]

How many Chechen childrend have russians killed?.....Im not starting anything but im only saying that theres allways 2 sides in every war.....and both them are suffering......what russia needs fron chechenia?

[CPL Trevoga]

How many Chechen childrend have russians killed?.....Im not starting anything but im only saying that theres allways 2 sides in every war.....and both them are suffering......what russia needs fron chechenia?

You know, little things like stopping banditry, robberies, murder and slavery. If they would stop killin' childeren in neighboring Dagestan it would be nice too.

It's amazing how Chechens managed to tarnish themselves and alienate the whole world. Even most Russian were sympathetic towards them in 1994.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Russian forces did a great job in Chechnya! Second war was very professional and quick in my opinion. The terrorist scum is almost completely gone!

[TR1]

yeah, completely gone, I wish....

[daily666]

You know, little things like stopping banditry, robberies, murder and slavery. If they would stop killin' childeren in neighboring Dagestan it would be nice too.

It's amazing how Chechens managed to tarnish themselves and alienate the whole world. Even most Russian were sympathetic towards them in 1994.

Russians had better Public Relations. You're right most people were more sympathetic towards Chechen fighters in 1994, nowdays, after Buddionovsk, Dubrovka, Beslan they're considered nothing more than cruel animals.

[cepera]

It's after Dagestan that they got their face in dirt. here's a great vid of that -> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=465630195005510134&q=dagestan&pl=true

@ arrogant finn:

You got finnish-russian issues then say so and we'll talk it out. :hug:

[Somehow]

How many Chechen childrend have russians killed?.....Im not starting anything but im only saying that theres allways 2 sides in every war.....and both them are suffering......what russia needs fron chechenia?

What a dumb comment!!!

You are talking about innocent civilian lifes!. Right. But are you saying that the most savage form of terrorism in the world is comparable to the collateral damage during a war or conflict?

Even in the case of Chechnnya war, with the brutal russian bombardements or even cases of war crimes ... (in both sides!)

Do you understand the differents between victims of a war and the terrorism victims (in most of the cases killed in cold blood!)?.

Terrorists target innocent people in a deliberated way. Just terror!.

In Beslan, more than 330 innocent civilian were killed (almost 200 were children between 2 and 14).

[Rin]

What a dumb comment!!!

You are talking about innocent civilian lifes!. Right. But are you saying that the most savage form of terrorism in the world is comparable to the collateral damage during a war or conflict?

Even in the case of Chechnnya war, with the brutal russian bombardements or even cases of war crimes ... (in both sides!)

Do you understand the differents between victims of a war and the terrorism victims (in most of the cases killed in cold blood!)?.

Terrorists target innocent people in a deliberated way. Just terror!.

In Beslan, more than 330 innocent civilian were killed (almost 200 were children between 2 and 14).
Sorry if i stepped in ur toes.....my point was that is it better to bomb innocent civilians from distance or make it from skin to skin contact.....and btw im all against killing little childrens too.....but think mayby it was the only way to say to the world that we are here.......mayby their children were dead too.........

[Somehow]

Sorry if i stepped in ur toes.....my point was that is it better to bomb innocent civilians from distance or make it from skin to skin contact.....and btw im all against killing little childrens too.....but think mayby it was the only way to say to the world that we are here.......mayby their children were dead too.........

OK, but sorry again. Bomb innocents (from distance) was not the Russian objective in Chechnya any time. Probably just your opinion ... but chechen acts of terrorisms are very different and with a clear objective. Death (of innocent civilians) in front of the cameras. Savagery with a countdown to death (just suicide missions).

Think twice!. You are comparing terror/fanatical actions with russian military errors or just incompetence.

And coming back to Chechnya war, not terrorism!. I guess we both could discuss during hours regarding the roots of the conflict, political factors, its protagonists in both sides and its causes, but the cruelty shown but some chechen terrorists/radicals/fanatics/commanders is "out of range" and has nothing to do with the previous ...

BTW, since many years, most renowned chechen field commanders are specially known by its atrocious acts (towards the russians and "its own people") and even a growing number of chechen people consider them just terrorists. Not freedom fighters ...

[Rin]

OK, but sorry again. Bomb innocents (from distance) was not the Russian objective in Chechnya any time. Probably just your opinion ... but chechen acts of terrorisms are very different and with a clear objective. Death (of innocent civilians) in front of the cameras. Savagery with a countdown to death (just suicide missions).

Think twice!. You are comparing terror/fanatical actions with russian military errors or just incompetence.

And coming back to Chechnya war, not terrorism!. I guess we both could discuss during hours regarding the roots of the conflict, political factors, its protagonists in both sides and its causes, but the cruelty shown but some chechen terrorists/radicals/fanatics/commanders is "out of range" and has nothing to do with the previous ...

BTW, since many years, most renowned chechen field commanders are specially known by its atrocious acts (towards the russians and "its own people") and even a growing number of chechen people consider them just terrorists. Not freedom fighters ...
Well what would spanish peoples do if andorra would invade ur country.....i'll bet that we would see some childrens dying and those damn andorrans put to death by u.....what are u then.....terrorist?.......freedomfighter......or just an ass like i am?

[Somehow]

:D Probably Spanish people are not the ULTIMATE FIGHTERS, but Andorra ....

BTW, take a little bit of our history ...

------------ From Wikipedia ------------ (the birth of guerrilla war!)


The Peninsular War and the War of the Fifth Coalition

Main articles: Peninsular War, Fifth Coalition

In addition to military endeavors against Britain, Napoleon also waged economic war, attempting to enforce a Europe-wide commercial boycott of Britain called the "Continental System". Although this action hurt the British economy, it also damaged the French economy and was not a decisive factor.

Portugal did not comply with this Continental System and in 1807 Napoleon sought Spain's support for an invasion of Portugal. When Spain refused, Napoleon invaded Spain as well. After mixed results were produced by his generals, Napoleon himself took command and defeated the Spanish army, retook Madrid and then defeated a British army sent to support the Spanish, driving it to the coast and forcing withdrawal from Iberia (in which its commander, Sir John Moore, was killed). Napoleon installed one of his marshals and brother-in-law, Joachim Murat, as the King of Naples, and his brother Joseph Bonaparte, as King of Spain.

The Spanish, inspired by nationalism and the Roman Catholic Church, and angry over atrocities committed by French troops, rose in revolt. At the same time, Austria unexpectedly broke its alliance with France and Napoleon was forced to assume command of forces on the Danube and German fronts. A bloody draw ensued at Aspern-Essling (May 21–22, 1809) near Vienna, which was the closest Napoleon ever came to a defeat in a battle with more or less equal numbers on each side. After a two month interval, the principal French and Austrian armies engaged again near Vienna resulting in a French victory at Battle of Wagram (6 July).

Following this a new peace was signed between Austria and France and in the following year the Austrian Archduchess Marie-Louise married Napoleon, following his divorce of Josephine.

-------------------------------------

Despite the situation, nobody started to attack civilians in France ... ;)

Anyway, the comparison is hilarious ... ;)

Whatever situation you take, targeting civilians is just terrorist independenly of your reasons.

Regards,

SH

[Jani.R]

It's after Dagestan that they got their face in dirt. here's a great vid of that -> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=465630195005510134&q=dagestan&pl=true

@ arrogant finn:

You got finnish-russian issues then say so and we'll talk it out. :hug:

Was it terrorism when Soviet partisan units attacked Finnish villages near border killing and looting from civilians?

Between 41-44 Soviet partisans/terrorists attacked 23 villages killing 127 civilians (mostly womans, children and eldery as men where fighting)

The only diffrence to Beslan is that these "fighters" where given medals by communists.

[Rin]

:D Probably Spanish people are not the ULTIMATE FIGHTERS, but Andorra ....

BTW, take a little bit of our history ...

------------ From Wikipedia ------------ (the birth of guerrilla war!)



-------------------------------------

Despite the situation, nobody started to attack civilians in France ... ;)

Anyway, the comparison is hilarious ... ;)

Whatever situation you take, targeting civilians is just terrorist independenly of your reasons.

Regards,

SH
Well history is hilarious.....u never know what will happen.....so whatch out those andorrans....

[CPL Trevoga]

Was it terrorism when Soviet partisan units attacked Finnish villages near border killing and looting from civilians?

Between 41-44 Soviet partisans/terrorists attacked 23 villages killing 127 civilians (mostly womans, children and eldery as men where fighting)

The only diffrence to Beslan is that these "fighters" where given medals by communists.

Little confused with "right" and "wrong" Jani? Why don't you give Beslan freedom fighters Finnish medals. Looks like they deserve it according to your standards.

[Jani.R]

Little confused with "right" and "wrong" Jani? Why don't you give Beslan freedom fighters Finnish medals. Looks like they deserve it according to your standards.
Where did i say anything about Russians deserving it?

[Rin]

Little confused with "right" and "wrong" Jani? Why don't you give Beslan freedom fighters Finnish medals. Looks like they deserve it according to your standards.
Where is that right or wrong?.....i think that jani showed an good excample about right and wrong.....right way to kill civilians is if u win.

[Zarathustra]

Chechen terrorist are the most cruel and inhumane bastards in the world.

This is true, I've seen footage of russians soldiers being beheaded that makes other conflict sound like a vacation. They want to turn Chechnya into a backward society and have to be purshased until death, especially bassaiev.

[++boss^is^dead++]

It's a pity that so many innocents are trapped in between animals like these. It's a dirty tactic there employing.Taking pot shots and hoping that a counter-strike will destroy what exactly??They don't have any formidable enemys in there home town.At least none that they havn't already dealt with or know how to.Everytime I hear stories like this it makes me count my lucky stars that I live in a democratic state,no matter how corrupt or unfair it may seem sometimes.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

It's a pity that so many innocents are trapped in between animals like these. It's a dirty tactic there employing.Taking pot shots and hoping that a counter-strike will destroy what exactly??They don't have any formidable enemys in there home town.At least none that they havn't already dealt with or know how to.Everytime I hear stories like this it makes me count my lucky stars that I live in a democratic state,no matter how corrupt or unfair it may seem sometimes.
What are you about retard? :bash:

[Teaser]

Interesting question..

If the Chechens hate Russians so much and want liberation from them, why did the kill Ossetian children. Ossetians are not slavic, nevermind Russian. They are the descendants of scytho-sarmatian nomads, actually, the last remnants of the scythians on this planet.

Acyually it was the great Russian 'Special' Forces that fired tank shells into the Beslan school building thinking that it would only somehow hurt the captors. WHat a bunch of idiots! LOL!

[Dima-RussianArms]

Acyually it was the great Russian 'Special' Forces that fired tank shells into the Beslan school building thinking that it would only somehow hurt the captors. WHat a bunch of idiots! LOL!

Were you there?
Did you see it with your own eyes?
Have any proof to back up your statement? I mean there are thousands of pictures of that event, care to show me one with the tank firing on the main building during the firefight?

As for "bunch of idiots" comment - thank God or whatever you believe in that I am nowhere you, live on scum.

Although you know what - I can't freaking wait to see live on CNN how US and Israeli pilots will tear your country a new one and hopefully you'll be part of the collaterral damage.;)

[CPL Trevoga]

Where is that right or wrong?.....i think that jani showed an good excample about right and wrong.....right way to kill civilians is if u win.

Killing civilians is wrong. Those bandits who killed in 1941-1945 are still criminals.



Although you know what - I can't freaking wait to see live on CNN how US and Israeli pilots will tear your country a new one and hopefully you'll be part of the collaterral damage.;)

Don't mess with Texas. :)

[oldsoak]

Acyually it was the great Russian 'Special' Forces that fired tank shells into the Beslan school building thinking that it would only somehow hurt the captors. WHat a bunch of idiots! LOL!

:roll:
You go tell them that - I'll hold your coat.

[Somehow]

Acyually it was the great Russian 'Special' Forces that fired tank shells into the Beslan school building thinking that it would only somehow hurt the captors. WHat a bunch of idiots! LOL!

WTF???. You are THE ****ING IDIOT ... (not the RF SF as you said!)

Please ....shut up if you don't have anything intelligent to say.

According to you, the hostages died because those tank shells? Where and when those tank shells were fired? Any idea?

According to you the huge loss of life had nothing to do with dozens of IEDs distributed among the children and women by the terrorists, nothing to do with more than thirty armed men equipped with assaults rifles, machine guns, hand granades and RPGs ...

You are the ONLY ONE that probably can also prove that the explosions in the gym were originated by the Russian outside ...

[Lazarou]

care to show me one with the tank firing on the main building during the firefight?

Colonel Viktor Kindeyev of the Russian Armed Forces admitted that his troops (under FSB control during the siege) fired at least seven shots (one of which was a blank, the rest were HE-FRAG grenades) from their T72 tanks into the school and the public prosecutor came to the same conclusion that tanks and thermobaric RPO "Shmel" rockets were used against the building when the children were still inside.

And this topic has been discussed to death.

[Teaser]

Were you there?
Did you see it with your own eyes?
Have any proof to back up your statement? I mean there are thousands of pictures of that event, care to show me one with the tank firing on the main building during the firefight?

As for "bunch of idiots" comment - thank God or whatever you believe in that I am nowhere you, live on scum.

Although you know what - I can't freaking wait to see live on CNN how US and Israeli pilots will tear your country a new one and hopefully you'll be part of the collaterral damage.;)

I saw it all on the Beslan documentary and on that day when the event was unfolding. They were firing on the school like crazy. There were dozens of tanks surrounding the school. Now why would they bring the tanks? To show them off? Yeah right....

You will have to wait a LONG time before Israel and the Us even have the balls to fire a bullet on Iranian soil. Iran my son is not like Iraq where Saddam had his head up his ass. Iran has the technology to send everything to hell. Attack iran = World War III. Hey when will they attack? They have been talking about Iran for about 3 year and Iran keeps telling them to go fck themselfs. And what does the Us and Israel do? NOTHING! Why? Because they cant do jack. Plus, I am not Iranian, I only support their freedom of speech.

So keep cheering USA! USA! ISRAEL! But at the end of the day the Iranians tell you the same thing "GO F*** YOURSELF!" :roll: And then all is quiet.

Cant wait when the Russians get defeated again like in Afghanistan. ;)

keep dreaming my friend :hug:

[TR1]

I saw it all on the Beslan documentary and on that day when the event was unfolding. They were firing on the school like crazy. There were dozens of tanks surrounding the school. Now why would they bring the tanks? To show them off? Yeah right....

You will have to wait a LONG time before Israel and the Us even have the balls to fire a bullet on Iranian soil. Iran my son is not like Iraq where Saddam had his head up his ass. Iran has the technology to send everything to hell. Attack iran = World War III. Hey when will they attack? They have been talking about Iran for about 3 year and Iran keeps telling them to go fck themselfs. And what does the Us and Israel do? NOTHING! Why? Because they cant do jack. Plus, I am not Iranian, I only support their freedom of speech.

So keep cheering USA! USA! ISRAEL! But at the end of the day the Iranians tell you the same thing "GO F*** YOURSELF!" :roll: And then all is quiet.

Cant wait when the Russians get defeated again like in Afghanistan. ;)

keep dreaming my friend :hug:
shut the **** up Iranian..........you entire military and nuclear programme rests on Russian aid......and if you don't know anything about Chechnya, stop talking.

and you Iranians are pussies..........I am against any action by the US against Iran, and I believe in Iran's right to nuclear power.........but STFU, in case of war you would be annihalated within hours.

[Lazarou]

Ignore him, there's a reason why he got banned.

[TR1]

Ignore him, there's a reason why he got banned.

in the past?

[Lazarou]

in the past?

yes.

.......

[Somehow]

Colonel Viktor Kindeyev of the Russian Armed Forces admitted that his troops (under FSB control during the siege) fired at least seven shots (one of which was a blank, the rest were HE-FRAG grenades) from their T72 tanks into the school and the public prosecutor came to the same conclusion that tanks and thermobaric RPO "Shmel" rockets were used against the building when the children were still inside.

And this topic has been discussed to death.

Any solid link or source? (not just opinions or speculation)

What I've read is that the tank shells were fired almost two hours after the firefight started and against a group of terrorists in a different building of the school complex, not just the main buildings of the school: gym and hall (where the hostages were kept). I also have watched at least 5 documentaries, and apart from speculation, nothing more ...

The same with the RPOs. I can't believe troops firing RPOs against the gym where their mates of "A" and "B" were dying trying to take the children out. What I also read regarding RPOs is that the terrorists had RPGs and "Shmels". Both were fired from the second floor during the rescue operations against the Russian forces.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Acyually it was the great Russian 'Special' Forces that fired tank shells into the Beslan school building thinking that it would only somehow hurt the captors. WHat a bunch of idiots! LOL!
LOL, are you kidding me. Stop insulting the memory and heroism of the Beslan children and Russian SF who gave their lives to save them. BTW before you call anybody an idiot check out you're username and location, THAT calls for an LOL. :slap:

[Lazarou]

Any solid link or source? (not just opinions or speculation)

Russian newspapers and the Internet. Use Google or the forum's search function, that's what they're for.

The old phrace "Don't shoot the messenger" applies to this one.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Colonel Viktor Kindeyev of the Russian Armed Forces admitted that his troops (under FSB control during the siege) fired atleast seven shots (one of which was a blank, the rest were HE-FRAG grenades) from their T72 tanks into the school,
Things are known to get lost in translation (i.e. british "documentary" about Russian Army);)

There is the difference between "firing into the school with hostages" and firing at the school complex (annex buildings) to eliminate machine gun nests and sniper positions.
Do you understand the difference?

Firefight continued after the roof of the gym where hostages were held collapsed.
No tank rounds were fired at the gym with the hostages inside.



And so is the public prosecutor as well, I presume: he came to the conclusion that tanks and thermobaric RPO rockets (their empty tubes were found during the cleaning operation of the school area) were used against the building when the children were still inside.
REALLY?!
THINGS GOT LOST IN TRANSLATION AGAIN?
I am looking at the commision's report text right now and I don't see anything that points or says that RPOs were used on the gym with the kids inside.
Care to provide some quote or proof to your statement?
Btw, you ever seen results of RPO being fired on a building? If so then how do you explain type of damages to the gym?


If you lived in Russia and read Russian newspapers you'd know all this.
Read newspapers?!
rofl
Thank you, I prefer to rely on the first hand accounts.
There are only two other people on this board who know as much, most likely more, about what happened there and you are not one of them. So you can shove your "newspaper knowledge" you know where..

Go tell your bs to the mothers of Beslan, lets see what they think.
What can mothers who lost their kids possibly think about besides those who theiy lost? They are filled with anger and sorrow.
Unfortunately there are scum like you who use them to push their agenda and bring them into arguments. Mothers of those kids can't see straight from pain - have you no morals or shame?

And this topic has been discussed to death.
Then why are you keep bringing same conspiracy theries over and over again?

...............

[Dima-RussianArms]

I saw it all on the Beslan documentary and on that day when the event was unfolding.
So the documentary came out while events were still unfolding?!
WOW...

They were firing on the school like crazy.
Who are "they"?
Do you even understand the difference between local militia (armed kids parents), police, VV, army and SF units?

There were dozens of tanks surrounding the school.
WHAT!!!!!?????
:roll:
Please tell me that you are on crack, otherwise I will start thinking that Iranian television doctored the footage.


You will have to wait a LONG time before Israel and the Us even have the balls to fire a bullet on Iranian soil.
Define long time, becaue I'd like to save your post.

Iran my son is not like Iraq where Saddam had his head up his ass. Iran has the technology to send everything to hell.
Like for example?

Dude, the most modern technology that Iran has is a copy of Russian Shkval missile that was developed in 1977 (****, I just thought about it - it is 29 years old!)
Oh, I am sorry, I forgot about the flying boat
:)


................

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Hey Dima could you please clear you're inbox some so I can send you PM, thanks bro.

[cepera]

Were you there?
Did you see it with your own eyes?
Have any proof to back up your statement? I mean there are thousands of pictures of that event, care to show me one with the tank firing on the main building during the firefight?

As for "bunch of idiots" comment - thank God or whatever you believe in that I am nowhere you, live on scum.



No he wasnt there, but he is a regular at kavkazcenter though. That's where he gets his facts from.

[Jani.R]

An armored vehicle of the Russian security forces opened fire at the school before a blast blamed by the authorities on the hostage takers unleashed a chain of events that claimed the lives of many hostages, a witness questioned in the trial over the Beslan school massacre told the court hearing the case of the only hostage-taker arrested after the siege.

Beslan resident Kuzbek Turbinov, 64, told the court he saw an armored transport vehicle fire at the school where the hostage crisis was unfolding before the blast occurred, contradicting the authorities’ official version, the AFP news agency reported.

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/09/28/beslantrialwitness.shtml



Apparently, it was at this point that Russian special forces activated their action plan to storm the school to rescue any possible survivors. A chaotic battle broke out as the special forces sought to enter the school and cover the escape of the hostages. Some panicked Russian army conscripts fled the scene, while the special forces commandos blew holes in walls to allow hostages to escape. A massive level of force was used; as well as the special forces, the regular army and Interior Ministry troops were also engaged, as were helicopter gunships (including Mi-24 Hinds and Mi-8 Hips) and at least one tank (most probably two T-72s and one either T-80 or T-90) as well as several BTR armoured personnel carriers. Many local civilians also joined in the battle, having brought along their own weapons. Afterwards, the Russian government defended the use of tanks and other heavy weaponry, arguing that it was used after surviving hostages escaped from the school. However, this contradicts the eyewitness accounts and common sense, as many hostages were seriously wounded and could not possibly escape by themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis



Kindeyev said that the tanks were handed over to the FSB's command because no one from the Defense Ministry, including the Defense Minister himself, has the right to order a tank to fire. "I heard a tank fire," he testified. "I don't deny that. Only one tank fired, at a distance of 70 meters from the school. It fired seven shots, one of which was a blank. I can name the precise time: 20 hours 55 minutes. I'll explain, so that it's understandable to the lay person: a shot from a tank greatly differs from a shot from a grenade launcher or flame thrower, inasmuch as the sound from a tank is louder, more resonant and stronger." Kindeyev said that the first four tank rounds—which, he said, were fired into a wall of the school building—were "antipersonnel-high explosive shells."

http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?volume_id=409&issue_id=3539&article_id=2370524

And you wonder why so many civilians died?

[Dima-RussianArms]

First of all
mosnews.com is a tabloid, they also published stories of Soviet scientists who done allien autopsies...

Wikipidea
That one I am not even going to comment, I think you know why if you don't check on how and from where they get their info.


From your 3rd source

I don't deny that. Only one tank fired, at a distance of 70 meters from the school. It fired seven shots, one of which was a blank. I can name the precise time: 20 hours 55 minutes

13:05 First explosion
13:30 Roof collapses

According to your source tank didn't fire till 20:55

Care to explain?

[CPL Trevoga]

I am not Iranian, I only support their freedom of speech.

So keep cheering USA! USA! ISRAEL! But at the end of the day the Iranians tell you the same thing "GO F*** YOURSELF!" :roll: And then all is quiet.


What's up with Iranian flag then, asshole?


I'm sorry we can't stop cheering USA! It's too much fun! USA, USA, USA, USA,
USA, USA, USA, USA, USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TR1]

What's up with Iranian flag then, asshole?


I'm sorry we can't stop cheering USA! It's too much fun! USA, USA, USA, USA,
USA, USA, USA, USA, USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i think its time to give Iran their well deserved freedom...invade mighty troops of the coalition, invade!!!!!!!!!!

[Teaser]

shut the **** up Iranian..........you entire military and nuclear programme rests on Russian aid......and if you don't know anything about Chechnya, stop talking.

Wrong. It rests on China and Europes money. Russia is just a Weapon provider which Iran pays! Iran has Oil and it doesnt need anyone. Russia needs Iran instaed my friend.


and you Iranians are pussies..........I am against any action by the US against Iran, and I believe in Iran's right to nuclear power.........but STFU, in case of war you would be annihalated within hours.

Iran happens to defend itself against the ENRIRE Arab world helping Saddam. While Russia couldnt defeat a bunch of guys with a simple Ak-47 and RPG called the Afghan Mujahideen (No Tanks, and Air planes). Wow thats nice!

[cepera]

While Russia couldnt defeat a bunch of guys with a simple Ak-47 and RPG called the Afghan Mujahideen (No Tanks, and Air planes). Wow thats nice!

Thats called URBAN WARFARE dummy, same as America's Iraq.

[Drunkensquid]

Thats called URBAN WARFARE dummy, same as America's Iraq.


I don't think that was a good comparison, Fallujah was urban warfare and so was Grozny, two very different results.

[Lokos]

Iran happens to defend itself against the ENRIRE Arab world helping Saddam.

No.

Iraq was financially assisted by the UAE and Saudi Arabia. Egypt, the largest and most powerful Arab nation, did not offer anything but token support for Saddam's regime during the Iran-Iraq War.

And Iraq was the stronger combatant at the conclusion of that war, by the way. They had retaken the offensive in 1987 and had superior tank, artillery, helicopter and aircraft stocks to the Iranians. The Iranian revolutionary regime badly misshandled the war effort at just about every stage, gambling heavily on poorly led, poorly executed mass assaults during 1981-1983. The Iranian regular army, which had stopped Saddam's forces by the second month of the campaign, was heavily de-emphasised.

All bombastic nationalism aside, the US armed forces would mangle Iran's in a matter of weeks. No 'ifs' or 'buts'. The two military technical institutions would be engaged in different forms of warfare. Unfortunately for the Iranians, the US has every advantage in the kind of war that would develop as a result.


I don't think that was a good comparison, Fallujah was urban warfare and so was Grozny, two very different results.
9 Hours Ago 03:21 AM

Two very different cities, rather, with two very different forces defending them, and with two very different stocks of ammunition and available small arms. The higher morale and better discipline of the Chechens certainly wasn't helpful in making the analogy a square one.


Iran has Oil and it doesnt need anyone. Russia needs Iran instaed my friend.

Russia has more oil than Iran.


While Russia couldnt defeat a bunch of guys with a simple Ak-47 and RPG called the Afghan Mujahideen (No Tanks, and Air planes). Wow thats nice!

The Soviets (still the SU back then) could have killed every man, woman and child in Afghanistan in the first year of the war. Would this constitute a victory? The Soviets were very efficient in slaughtering Mujahideen. Unfortunately, as a movement, they had vast reserves of available disaffected manpower, which replenished their combat groups. A proper analogy for the 'defeats' of Vietnam and Afghanistan is two boxers facing off: one is a heavy weight knock-out king, and the other is about to fight for the first time, as a total amateur. For the next ten rounds, the heavy weight pulverizes the amateur, but is careful not to go overboard, so as not to kill him. During the eleventh round, the heavyweight starts feeling bad about what he's doing to the other guy. He's also getting kind of tired, and there's a serious match-up with a skillful opponent the next day, so he has the fight stopped.

How one can go from that to 'the Soviets lost' or even 'the Americans lost' (in Vietnam) seems to me to be more a matter of agenda than objective truth. An objective viewer would say 'they failed to reach their ultimate objectives, but remained masters of any field they bestrode'. The respective guerrilla belligerents in both cases 'won' by virtue of having survived.

Lokos

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

I don't think that was a good comparison, Fallujah was urban warfare and so was Grozny, two very different results.
Yeah the Russians aren't fighting in Grozny anymore as for Fallujah and Baghdad etc. Well just turn on the tv.

[Snoshi]

Teaser is BACK!!!!

[Dima-RussianArms]

I don't think that was a good comparison, Fallujah was urban warfare and so was Grozny, two very different results.
Your comparison is not much better:

1. Attackers vs defenders ratio
Manpowerwise it was approx 1:1!!!! Think about it 1:1, it was already a recepie for a disaster even without the other factors.
Everywhere else in the world that ratio would be 3:1.

Chechens also had 25 tanks, 35 BMPs and BTRs and 80+ cannons and mortars.
What kind of armor and artilery did insurgents have in Falludja?

2. City's fortifications/defences
Grozny was purpousfully fortified for 2 years.
3 rings of defence, machine gun nests in the half-basements, quality of buildings (soviet concrete highrises vs clay brick 2-3 story buildings in Falludja) would make the difference alone by itself.

3. Quality of equipment
Chechens simply had what Russians had and a lot of times they had better equipment.
If US forces had to deal with AK 47 and RPG 7 whose fuses would detonate 3 out of 5 times, Chechens somehow had access to the weaponary that Russian army only seen in sales brochures...

4. Quality of defenders
SU had conscription, Chechens were taught exactly the same tactics as Russians who attacked Grozny, they knew all the weak spots of the system.
Add to that highlanders mentality and fierocity.
In short: average Chechen warrior is very different from the average Iraqi soldier based on what I have read and seen.


5. Communications
Chechens clearly had superior communications equipments during 1995 and therefore were able to coordinate their actions better.
Russians had to deal with all the confusion caused by Chechens jamming, intercepting and providing false data (most of the Chechens speak Russian).
There were instances when Chechens directed Russian artillery support against Russians!
Did US forces have to deal with the same variables in Falludja?


6. Politics
Did US senators stay with insurgents in Falludja and called American soldiers criminals and urged them to disobey orders, surrender and join Chechens?
Russian senators and human rights activists did!
Can you imagine what kind of impact it had on 18-19 year oldRussian kids who didn't know what they were doing there in the first place?



7. Leadership, preparations and expectations
Dudaev recieved a fax with the assault's plan before it started... And oh, yeah, the sender was someone who had access to the fax machine in Eltsin's office.
What do you think of that?

Preparations before the assault amounted to nothing.
No training, no clear goals - nothing.Oh wait, some commanders were given city maps that dated back to 1932!

Expectations were to take city without a fight but by mere show of force.
All of the intelligence that clearly pointed that Chechens were ready and equiped to fight as hard as anyone ever did was simply dismissed and ignored!

There was a CONSTANT betrayal of troops on the ground by their commanders.
When enemy knows all of you minefields, supply routes and radio frequences,
when you are ordered to fall back everytime any progress is being made, when you are told not to fire on Chechens when they are firing at you - what do you expect?

Finally commanders on the ground started realizing what was happening and on whose side their superiors and politicians are, they started doing things their own way while sending bogus reports to HQ and Moscow.
And only because of that they were able to take the city.

Russian soldier won not because of the great leadership but inspite of it.

8. Morale and media coverage
Read my previous points and draw your own conclusions about what kind of morale average Russian soldier had: betrayed, undersupplied and underequiped, labeled as a criminal by its own politicians and media...

How many of you heard about pre-war genocide against Russian population in Chechnya, how many of you have heard about slavery markets over there - most likely none, but all of you have heard plenty about Russian crimes against innocent civilians. It just shows that Chechens clearly won the information war in 1995/96, which led to the political victory and hich led to the second war...

As you can see from the above - odds, enemy and circumstances that Russian soldier faced in 1995 Grozny were very different from what US soldier faced in Falludja.
So how can you compare them both?

I have stated that before and I will say it again - considering all of the above I do not understand how Russian army was able to take Grozny in 1995 and why it didn't turn around and marched on Moscow.

[Lazarou]

Teaser is BACK!!!!

Not for long. ;)

[Miles.]

Great post, Dima.

[TR1]

I say we just ignore Teaser from now on....and he can continue having a hard on about Iran's potential as a great military power.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Great post, Dima.
Thank you, I just want people try to understand what Russian soldier had to deal with back then.
First thing they saw when entered the city was "Welcome to hell" greeting and hell it became.

If anyone interested I can post 369 MB documentary about first Russian assault on Grozny.
It is in russian but has lots of footage from both sides.

[TR1]

Thank you, I just want people try to understand what Russian soldier had to deal with back then.
First thing they saw when entered the city was "Welcome to hell" greeting and hell it became.

If anyone interested I can post 369 MB documentary about first Russian assault on Grozny.
It is in russian but has lots of footage from both sides.
post it please. What I want to see is some footage from the Chechen side during the beggining of the second war-but not the crap that the ****ed up jihadists put on the net, but some actual footage from the nonextermist seperatists, the peopel who simply in their minds eye were defending their homes, of whom they used to be a considerable amount- unfortunately most of the seperatists now are brainwashed, sick and brutal morons.

[Miles.]

Thank you, I just want people try to understand what Russian soldier had to deal with back then.
First thing they saw when entered the city was "Welcome to hell" greeting and hell it became.

Your post was very enlightening, honest, and well-written. My commendations.

As for the Russian documentary, I'll have to wait for the English version! ;)

You live in Texas? ;)

[Somehow]

If anyone interested I can post 369 MB documentary about first Russian assault on Grozny.
It is in russian but has lots of footage from both sides.

PLEAAASEEE!!! :)

Dima, I am very interested in details regarding Alfa & Vympel actions during Beslan tragedy. If you could give us any information about it, thank you very much!

Regards, SH

Edit: Some quotes from a previous thread: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69280&page=2&highlight=Beslan