Difference in Infantry/SF CQB TTP

[GearGod]

Has anyone seen infantry clearing out rooms such as the 101st in that CNN documentary? There was a previous discussion about it on another message board and someone said that their room-clearing TTP wasnt as fast and effective than that of elite SF units such as DELTA/DEVGRU etc. This person also said that the 101st casualties would've been less if it were DELTA/DEVGRU

My question is- Is that true? Sure I know that DELTA/DEVGRU has superior CQB TTP but are they so good that they perform Better than Infantry as in speed, #casualties, effectiveness, etc. ?? If this is true why doesn't Infantry use the same TTP that DELTA/DEVGRU does?

[Sabre]

I'm not 'au fait' in US urban tactics, but I can't imagine they differ too much from british FIBUA, so here's my view.

Infantry units would conduct urban operations in an entirely different situation to Delta/SAS etc. groups.

An infantry unit would be involved in a large-scale assault (generally large, of course it depends on the size of settlement) with the help of armour and artillery.

Training is based on the situation where the enemy are in prepared positions, with an intent to defend the settlement.

The overt nature of infantry conflict would mean that the enemy would expect an assault so suprise (beyond a strategic/tactical level) would not matter. Also, the aim is not to capture people/documents etc (as in Delta or SAS operations). For those reasons speed is not essential, only momentum (speed, times 'weight' or force, if you like).

The aim of an infantry assault is to seize and secure the ground. The emphasis is on overwhelming the enemy and maintaining the initiative, not allowing them to regroup. In prepared houses there are many obstacles to be overcome that SF may not encounter in an unprepared building. ****y traps must be deactivated and many levels of prepared defense overcome which adds to the time taken. Also, supply must be maintained as a hell of a lot of ammo is used. Resupply adds to the time.

Compare this with a 'sneeky-beeky' assault by SF. All ammo is carried on person, objectives are often isolated with covert insertion/extraction, and they don't 'bite off more than they can chew'. The emphasis has to be on speed because the longer they stay, the more likely they are to be cut off and wiped out. Surprise is essential and the target buildings are much less prepared (ie no tin roofing in stairs, sangers, mouseholes, grenade holes etc)

As for the slickness of the tactics. SF practice a lot, their training allows for it. Infantry do less FIBUA/MOUT training and therefore aren't as good.

[EliteWolf]

adam, the 101st is not a standard infantry unit, it is a special operatons force, the standard infantry units use standard MOUT tactics, the special forces, which includes airborne, special forces groups (green berets), delta, rangers, seals, AFSOC, etc etc use advanced urban combat tactics (AUC). AUC differs from standard MOUT in several ways, first off it uses principals originally used by the SAS, the so called experts at Urban Ops, these principals include 4-man assault teams, use of flashbangs upon entry and room clearing, fast paced blitz speed clearing of entire buildings, having separate teams enter buildings at different entry points symotaniously(SIC). All these things are based on the sole principal that speed creates confusion on the hostile force, and by the time they figure out whats going on, its to late for them to do anything about it.

so to answer your question, special forces have a more advanced set of urban combat tactics and different principals that deal with advanced tactical type assaulting tactics, not used by standard infantry units. standard MOUT helps standard soldiers to fight and survive in the deadly game of urban warefare.

hope that helps.

[Beowulf]

adam, the 101st is not a standard infantry unit, it is a special operatons force

101st is not SOF, it is not part of SOCOM.

Sabre has it right.

[XASA]

101st Air Assault isn't an airborne outfit, either.

[Bing]

yep not anymore

[Apogee]

But they still retain the name. "Hundred and First Airborne AIRASSAULT"

[EliteWolf]

right bewoulf, they are not under SOCOM, but theoretically they are a special forces unit because they do missions that standard infantry dont do, and the 101st does have special skills in urban warefare, which is why they would have been the primary force to fight in the streets of bagdad should it come to that. but technically your right, they are not a special forces unit because they do not operate under SOCOM, just the same as Marine Force Recon, they are considered a special forces unit, or a elite combat unit, but they do not operate under SOCOM, so technically they are not Special Forces either, get my point?

[Duke]

SPECIAL FORCES MISSION OR SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES MISSIONS:
Unconventional Warfare
Direct Action
Special Reconnaissance
Foreign Internal Defense
Counter terrorism
Psychological Operations
Civil Affairs
Coalition Warfare/Support
Humanitarian and Civic Action

For the designation SOF or SOC (USMC) the unit must train for missions and standards set forth by SOCOM. The 101st AIRBORNE (Air Assault) is a conventional unit, so by designation does not train in or at the levels of SOCOM. Their intense training or absense of training, such as MOUT and lack of language skills-respectively, still represents a conventional unit.

[MSG Dman]

101st a special ops unit!!! That is without a doubt the stupidest thing I have read on these boards to date. They are a leg infantry division just like the 10th and 25th. The only difference is they have a larger helo outfit to transport them. Once on the ground they are leg infantry and have no special skills over any other infantry unit.

[FallenAngel]

he he he...

Marine doctrine: "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" :D

(just for you people who can't take a joke....this is one. ;))

[Duke]

The 101st fields more than an infantry, blackhawks and chinooks, they include a bridgade of Apaches. When used properly, the 101st Aviation represents a credible CAS, and combined with Air Assault maneuverability a very formidable conventional unit.
Put up the 101st against both 10th and the 25th, and I'll bet every time on the 101st.

[FallenAngel]

The 101st fields more than an infantry, blackhawks and chinooks, they include a bridgade of Apaches. When used properly, the 101st Aviation represents a credible CAS, and combined with Air Assault maneuverability a very formidable conventional unit.


Hmm....that sounds A LOT like a MEU. Maybe I am missing something though. ;)

[MSG Dman]

Seeing how I have served in both the 101st and the 10th, I tend to think I have a "little" more experience on the subject. The 9 infantry battalions in the 101st train EXACTLY the same as the 6 infantry battalions in the 10th MTN. Yes, the 101st has a greater air capability, but the subject that started this whole thread was CQB. They both train the same, neither can be considered a special op.

http://www.aux.mtu.edu/armyrotc/derespino.html

[XASA]

Good for you MSG Dman. One of the best responses I've seen to some of the armchair warrior crap that manages to seep through this otherwise excellent forum. Experience still counts for something :P

[GearGod]

Finally got a chance to respond; Im "In the Mood" if you will; Some questions and comments:

Why are they called Airborne Air Assault if they dont do Airborne Operations such as parachuting like the 82nd?

Fallenangel: LOL Yeap you are missing something--Negative, 101st is not like the MEUs:


A primary goal for all forward deploying MEU's is to be trained, evaluated, and certified to conduct selected maritime special operations. Following the certification, the MEU will be designated as Special Operations Capable (SOC).

The designation "Special Operations Capable" is never granted until a unit successfully completed a special training syllabus, had been rigorously tested, and was certified to perform 18 special missions: amphibious raids, limited objective attacks, non-combatant evacuations, show of force, reinforcement operations, security operations, training foreign military, civil action, deception operations, fire support coordination, counter-intelligence, initial terminal guidance, signal intelligence-electronic warfare, tactical recovery of personnel and aircraft (TRAP), clandestine reconnaissance, military Operations in urban terrain (MOUT), special demolitions operations, and in-extremis hostage rescues.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usmc/meu.htm

As you you can see, they do "Special Operations" stuff almost equivalent to that of Army SF and Navy SEALs

I agree the SF claim of 101st is outrageous-- To be SF like duke said the unit has to do unconventional stuff--- 101st is just another infantry unit who transports via helicopter just like 82nd and their parachuting, Mechanized Infantry with their APCs, 10th Mountain with their um.. Mountains?? haha

[Apogee]

It has to do with history. Its the same reason that the 82nd still retains its number, history.

[EliteWolf]

SPECIAL FORCES MISSION OR SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES MISSIONS:
Unconventional Warfare
Direct Action
Special Reconnaissance
Foreign Internal Defense
Counter terrorism
Psychological Operations
Civil Affairs
Coalition Warfare/Support
Humanitarian and Civic Action

For the designation SOF or SOC (USMC) the unit must train for missions and standards set forth by SOCOM. The 101st AIRBORNE (Air Assault) is a conventional unit, so by designation does not train in or at the levels of SOCOM. Their intense training or absense of training, such as MOUT and lack of language skills-respectively, still represents a conventional unit.

You hit the nail dead on the head duke, thanx for clearing it up i agree completely, the 101st is not a special forces unit, but instead its a high priorety 'ground pounder' unit, same with the 10th MTN, 75th, and 82nd airborne.