I support the right to carry guns..

[Alpha Leader]

I support the right to carry guns for several reasons , some of them are listed below.

But in Norway the governent isn`t most suppotive on that subject.
Even when the crimerate is increesing and more violent,how is in your country?

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_ounce.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_clays.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/universal.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_better.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/huntingrifle_s.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_faster.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_taliban.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_drummer.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_30-30works.jpg

[cut]

looks like they're going all out to convince women

[Alpha Leader]

looks like they're going all out to convince women

We guys dont need to be convinced.

[RomanS]

I love GUNS !

I was born by them, I live with them, and i will die by them!

come to think - I LIVE FOR GUNS !

Like our American brothers say - they can only take them from our cold hands!

[Elmo]

So these weapons are for protection? An assault rifle?
Why not get a good lock and pepper spray?

What good is there in having a gun in place like Norway? I'm not talking about marksmanship as a hobby or hunting...apart from those?

Luckily in my country it is pretty strict. I don't know the legislation too well, though. I don't know anyone who has a gun...except for one relative who collects WWII weapons but he has some sort of special licence and also works in military related industry.

Guns are bad, m'kay?

[BlackRain]

So these weapons are for protection? An assault rifle?
Why not get a good lock and pepper spray?

Guns are bad, m'kay?


Perhaps that works in Finland but not in the USA.

Here is a small blog that records daily self-defense shootings here in the USA. http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

There certainly would be a lot more innocent victims without firearms.

Example US Law: Defense of Habitation Statute

The defense of habitation statute says homeowners may use any degree of force to prevent an illegal intrusion into their residences or to oust an intruder. But homeowners have to fear for their physical well-being or believe the intruder will commit a felony.

[Alpha Leader]

So these weapons are for protection? An assault rifle?
Why not get a good lock and pepper spray?

What good is there in having a gun in place like Norway? I'm not talking about marksmanship as a hobby or hunting...apart from those?

Luckily in my country it is pretty strict. I don't know the legislation too well, though. I don't know anyone who has a gun...except for one relative who collects WWII weapons but he has some sort of special licence and also works in military related industry.

Guns are bad, m'kay?


I belive that a man have a right to protect himself and his family.

We have the same legislations in Norway,almost anyway(I`l guess)

It is the man behind the gun that kills,without him/her the gun is just a pice of iron.
I dont belive that everyone is able to carry one and the legislation should
be strict.But if the authorities makes an closer examination on the person ,
and they find him/her competent,they should be alowed yo carry one.
Here in Norway you have to be a member in a club and have egular shootingpractice in the club.Or be an officer in the "reserve army".

I have my duty weapon (AG-3) at home,and i am an acitve member in the "reserve army".Thats it.

But weapons in the wrong hands are dangerous,i agree with that. :)

[Geezah]

I think my feelings on this are pretty clear ;)

the pics came from this link,
http://www.a-human-right.com/

[Beowulf]

I think my feelings on this are pretty clear ;)

the pics came from this link,
http://www.a-human-right.com/



Someone planning a drive-by shooting would use...

a. only legal 10-round magazines because they plan to get caught.
b. anything he wants because he doesn't plan to get caught.

That's one of my favorites

[cut]

you missed one

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/3057395.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DEE959D5F5905C1EC0E810B282E270B951

p-)

[Geezah]

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_racist.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_agreement.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_support.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/quacks_s.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_clinton.jpg

[Alpha Leader]

HEAR HEAR!
woot woot woot

[fred_engles]

As far as I'm concerned, people can have all the personal firearms they like - as long as they strictly obey a 100 mile exclusion zone around me and my loved ones at all times.

[Geezah]

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/stockup2_s.jpg

[Tributal]

Elmo, aside from that my step-dad is a Finn, I know of a guy from Finland who's acctive on a number of online forums such as this one - and he has plenty of assault rifles. Also, you guys get to own suppressors without permits - how nice is that?
Check up on your legislation - I think it's less strict than in Norway.

[Geezah]

As far as I'm concerned, people can have all the personal firearms they like - as long as they strictly obey a 100 mile exclusion zone around me and my loved ones at all times.

You may want to hang something similar to the door on the left in front of your house rofl

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_doors.jpg

[Nawlins]

As far as I'm concerned, people can have all the personal firearms they like - as long as they strictly obey a 100 mile exclusion zone around me and my loved ones at all times.

I'd have to disagree. Being in the proximity of a legally licensed, well-trained armed person is a comforting thought.

[Skaman]

If more guns made a safer nation, then the USA would be the safest country on Earth. This goes for other nations with slack and absolutely asinine gun laws, such as Russia, South Africa etc.

I am completely baffled by this American infatuation with arms and civilian right to own weapons. The fabrication that ‘handguns’ protect us is so stupid. Spare me the comments regarding ‘well criminals will find weapons anyway’ as it is in no way correlated to civilian crimes. M16’s, pistols, Mac 10’s are only meant for one purpose, to kill other humans, and does one really need this ‘liberty’?

Handguns are dangerous as they can be concealed too easily. Automatic weapons should only be held in the hands of the military. If someone wants a weapon for home protection, I suggest a shotgun, or hunting rifle, not an ak47. As well, the weapons that should be allowed within the confines of a home are those that are used for recreational hunting only. Look at Columbine shooting, Washington Sniper, Lee Harvey Oswald, the Hollywood bank robbers. These actions should raise concern, regarding the legitimate sales and availability of military weapons.

[fred_engles]

You may want to hang something similar to the door on the left in front of your houseTaping posters to your front door is tacky =)

Seriously though: I live in neighbourhoods that are both quite safe and very low-gun (and known to be low gun). Oh, and Geezah, I'm putting you on warning right now. Dayton falls well within the exclusion zone: please surrender any and all firearms at the nearest collection point =)


Being in the proximity of a legally licensed, well-trained armed person is a comforting thought.Where I'm from, we call those 'police.'

[Sixgun Symphony]

So these weapons are for protection? An assault rifle?
Why not get a good lock and pepper spray?


Would you take pepper spray over a rifle if you are sent off to war?

A fight with a criminal can be a life and death struggle too.

[Sixgun Symphony]

If more guns made a safer nation, then the USA would be the safest country on Earth. This goes for other nations with slack and absolutely asinine gun laws, such as Russia, South Africa etc.

I am completely baffled by this American infatuation with arms and civilian right to own weapons. The fabrication that ‘handguns’ protect us is so stupid. Spare me the comments regarding ‘well criminals will find weapons anyway’ as it is in no way correlated to civilian crimes. M16’s, pistols, Mac 10’s are only meant for one purpose, to kill other humans, and does one really need this ‘liberty’?

Handguns are dangerous as they can be concealed too easily. Automatic weapons should only be held in the hands of the military. If someone wants a weapon for home protection, I suggest a shotgun, or hunting rifle, not an ak47. As well, the weapons that should be allowed within the confines of a home are those that are used for recreational hunting only. Look at Columbine shooting, Washington Sniper, Lee Harvey Oswald, the Hollywood bank robbers. These actions should raise concern, regarding the legitimate sales and availability of military weapons.


There are alot of gunowners in Canada, hunting is very popular. Gun control is not crime control, it is about control.

BTW, I would not trust any government that does not trust me with a gun. Governments are the biggest mass murderers of all and an armed population is the final safeguard against tyranny which is why we have the RTKBA in our Bill of Rights.

[Geezah]

You may want to hang something similar to the door on the left in front of your houseTaping posters to your front door is tacky =)

Seriously though: I live in neighbourhoods that are both quite safe and very low-gun (and known to be low gun). Oh, and Geezah, I'm putting you on warning right now. Dayton falls well within the exclusion zone: please surrender any and all firearms at the nearest collection point =)


Being in the proximity of a legally licensed, well-trained armed person is a comforting thought.Where I'm from, we call those 'police.'

The neighbourhood you live in.....is it a well to do area, do people have money?

As far as being in your area......since I'm a newly joined member of the NRA, in Mr. Hestons words "From My Cold Dead Hands":)

" Where I'm from, we call those 'police" you mean a uniformed civilian, so the fact I love going to the range and could talk about guns till the cows come home means that I'm less capable of handling firearms.

I thought the AK47 was made so it could be handled by farmers who more often than not couldn't read, hell I love my black rifles rofl

[Sixgun Symphony]

You may want to hang something similar to the door on the left in front of your houseTaping posters to your front door is tacky =)

Seriously though: I live in neighbourhoods that are both quite safe and very low-gun (and known to be low gun). Oh, and Geezah, I'm putting you on warning right now. Dayton falls well within the exclusion zone: please surrender any and all firearms at the nearest collection point =)


Being in the proximity of a legally licensed, well-trained armed person is a comforting thought.Where I'm from, we call those 'police.'

Again, this shows the mindset of the herd like mentality of socialists. They expect a government to do everything for them. They of course will be totally unprepared if it is the government and its enforcers that are the criminals.

If this person lives in a 'safe' neighborhood, this it is likely to be very beourgeois. Again, crime has alot more to do with wealth and other social economic factors than with the availability of firearms.

[Geezah]

If more guns made a safer nation, then the USA would be the safest country on Earth. This goes for other nations with slack and absolutely asinine gun laws, such as Russia, South Africa etc.


The gun laws in place would work quite if they enforced the ones in place and not create more! I'm sure the USA would be a hell of allot worse if we were in a similar postion to the Uk becuase then all the crims would be in control.......hang on a minute they already are....MR Ted Kennedy....what car......whos girlfriend.....huh....off a bridge rofl


Handguns are dangerous as they can be concealed too easily.

That's why you only point them in a safe direction!



Automatic weapons should only be held in the hands of the military.

Are we talking semi or auto-matic becasue if I wanted auotmatic weopns I would need to get my Class 3 license and that's near imossible to get......that unless you mean the criminas having auto-matic weopns?


If someone wants a weapon for home protection, I suggest a shotgun, or hunting rifle, not an ak47. As well, the weapons that should be allowed within the confines of a home are those that are used for recreational hunting only.

That's why the only weApon left out of my safe in the closet is an unloaded 12ga with shells in the side saddle and speedfeed stock!


Look at Columbine shooting,.

Mac 10, sawed off shotgun another shotgun from what I remember and a shotgun barrel under 18" which is illegal



Washington Sniper,

Stolen AR15(semi)



Lee Harvey Oswald,

Italian army surplus bolt action rifle, how is that too dangerous?



the Hollywood bank robbers.,

Illegally owned fully automatic firearms and the Police had to borrow assault rifles from a gun store to cope with them?


These actions should raise concern, regarding the legitimate sales and availability of military weapons.

But we don't own Military weapons, they're semi auto-matic and only retain some of the cosmestic features(post ban) so how has a flash hider ever hurt anyone?

[Sixgun Symphony]

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson.


"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson,


Patrick Henry said: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."


"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation,... in the several kingdoms of Europe,... the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -James Madison


"The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us." Patrick Henry, "Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death" speech delivered on March 23, 1775.


"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure." Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith on Nov. 13, 1787. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).


The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787.


"I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787.


"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, & as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical." Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787.


"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." Joseph Story, Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (1833), Book III at 746, § 1858. Chapter. Whole Book.

[Geezah]

If more guns made a safer nation, then the USA would be the safest country on Earth. This goes for other nations with slack and absolutely asinine gun laws, such as Russia, South Africa etc.


The gun laws in place would work quite if they enforced the ones in place and not create more! I'm sure the USA would be a hell of allot worse if we were in a similar postion to the Uk becuase then all the crims would be in control.......hang on a minute they already are....Mr. Ted Kennedy....what car......whos girlfriend.....huh....off a bridge rofl


Handguns are dangerous as they can be concealed too easily.

That's why you only point them in a safe direction!



Automatic weapons should only be held in the hands of the military.

Are we talking semi or auto-matic becasue if I wanted auotmatic weapons I would need to get my Class 3 license and that's near impossible to get......that's unless you mean the criminals having auto-matic weapons?


If someone wants a weapon for home protection, I suggest a shotgun, or hunting rifle, not an ak47. As well, the weapons that should be allowed within the confines of a home are those that are used for recreational hunting only.

That's why the only weapon left out of my safe in the closet is an unloaded 12ga with shells in the side saddle and speedfeed stock!


Look at Columbine shooting,.

Mac 10, sawed off shotgun another shotgun from what I remember and a shotgun barrel under 18" is illegal



Washington Sniper,

Stolen AR15(semi)



Lee Harvey Oswald,

Italian army surplus bolt action rifle, how is that too dangerous?



the Hollywood bank robbers.,

Illegally owned fully auto-matic firearms and the Police had to borrow assault rifles from a gun store to cope with them?


These actions should raise concern, regarding the legitimate sales and availability of military weapons.

But we don't own Military weapons, they're semi auto-matic and only retain some of the cosmestic features(post ban) so how has a flash hider ever hurt anyone?

[Midtown]

As far as I'm concerned, people can have all the personal firearms they like - as long as they strictly obey a 100 mile exclusion zone around me and my loved ones at all times.

You may want to hang something similar to the door on the left in front of your house rofl

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_doors.jpg

That picture is awesome

[XASA]

I live in Falls Church, Virginia, which is "inside the Washington DC Beltway". It is one of the wealthiest and safest communities in the country. It is only seven miles from Washington, one of the poorest and dangerous communities in the country.

In Virginia, we have the right to carry a concealed weapon once we take a safety course. In Washington, it is illegal to own a handgun unless you are in law enforcement. The entire county that Falls Church is in had less than ten murders last year, most of them by people the victims knew. Washington has more murders per capita a year than any other similar sized city.

My point: gun control doesn't work and an armed citizenry is a deterrent to crime.

[TALOS]

If more guns made a safer nation, then the USA would be the safest country on Earth. This goes for other nations with slack and absolutely asinine gun laws, such as Russia, South Africa etc.
Canada has its fair share of guns and if you really look at the facts its not the amount of weapons that cause crime. If I am not mistaken the amount of legally owned weapons used to commit crimes is miniscule. All the bans in the world will not stop criminals, they dont care.

I am completely baffled by this American infatuation with arms and civilian right to own weapons. The fabrication that ‘handguns’ protect us is so stupid.
if you call it a fabrication you best have stats or at least some damn good reasonable argument to back it up. The anti gunners use the overall shooting deaths in the states to try and prop up their argument but they usually include legitimate police shootings in these "murders" each year

Spare me the comments regarding ‘well criminals will find weapons anyway’
its a fact, deal with it.
The other points you made were dealt with by someone else.

[usa320]

3 years ago i would say guns are a bad thing for people to be heavin....but after being held up at knifepoint at work and feeling completely and utterly defenseless, i disagree.

If someone is going to shoot me, i sure as hell want to be able to shoot them first.

See jail unfortunately isnt all that great of a deterent anymore. Now if good people had guns, then i think the number of bad people involved in shooting crimes would quickly decrease.

Now do i think anyone with the cash should be able to own an AK-47? No. But someone who takes the training and passes the background check should be able to own a handgun, rifle or shotgun. and by rifle i mean like long guns, .22's i dont mean a Kalashnikov or Galil.

[Herrmannek]

Duci take a look at the: http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=272

You just can't stop gun crimes until you ban plumber pipes because any teen can make a SMG from them on their own, without worrying their parents, teachers or schoolfriends:



Here is a step-by-step, illustrated guide to building a 9mm easily and efficiently from readily available materials - primarily standard, off-the-shelf sizes of steel tubing - without any machine tools or professional gunsmith's materials. The entire weapon can be assembled in about one week. For academic study only. 8 1/2 x 11, softcover, photos, illus., 96 pp. ISBN 0873649834

[Alpha Leader]

In Norway we have more guns per citizen then Texas they say,and that is guns for hunting.
Last year the police issued "Guns Amnesty".they hoped that people with nonregistrated weapon would delever them and they wouldnt be sued for illegal possesion of weapon.
Not so many people used that posibility,and there still is about one shotgun pr citizen, or more.
The most prefferd weapon used in killing are in fact shotguns.Easy to come by.
But when someone uses a military weapon they exaggertate it in the news and therefore the Nationalguard collected the spring and the firing pin from all the rifles.But officers still have their Glock 17 and ammunition.

By doing so a lot of the enlisted men in the Nationalguard became members of the Reserveofficers union and and got the parts out again.
And ammo aint hard to get.

Just for information.

[pinkeye]

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson.


"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson,


Patrick Henry said: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."


"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation,... in the several kingdoms of Europe,... the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -James Madison


"The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us." Patrick Henry, "Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death" speech delivered on March 23, 1775.


"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure." Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith on Nov. 13, 1787. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).


The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787.


"I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787.


"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, & as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical." Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787.


"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." Joseph Story, Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (1833), Book III at 746, § 1858. Chapter. Whole Book.

damn, being an american must really, really suck because your republican democracy obviously doesn't work since you need 47 assault rifles to protect you from your government. in other words, you are essentially saying that democracy in the u.s. is merely a sham and that an autocratic, repressive form of government is imminent. so i'm assuming you have a big anarchy flag flying over your kkk rec. centre/home? you are an insult to american democracy...

[pinkeye]

I live in Falls Church, Virginia, which is "inside the Washington DC Beltway". It is one of the wealthiest and safest communities in the country. It is only seven miles from Washington, one of the poorest and dangerous communities in the country.

In Virginia, we have the right to carry a concealed weapon once we take a safety course. In Washington, it is illegal to own a handgun unless you are in law enforcement. The entire county that Falls Church is in had less than ten murders last year, most of them by people the victims knew. Washington has more murders per capita a year than any other similar sized city.

My point: gun control doesn't work and an armed citizenry is a deterrent to crime.

hmmm, so rather than addressing the root causes of violent crime let's all distribute guns to frightened white people? 'cause we all know from watching the news, reading newspapers, listening to republicans, that violent crimes are committed by "coloured folk". gun control is better than no control.

more books, less guns...

[Sixgun Symphony]

We are a republic, not a democracy.

A democracy is where two wolves and a sheep vote on who is for dinner. A republic is preferrable as the minority has rights.

Now that we have shown the superiority of republicanism to your mobocracy, we will go into why an armed people is more free than a disarmed population.

Mao Tze Dung said that power came from the barrel of a gun. A communist dictator like him would know about power. So it goes that having an armed people means power to the people.

An armed population is the final protection against tyranny in government. Of course the socialists can't agree with that as they love Big Brother. They are dependants on Big Brother's social services, they can not stand on their own. It goes against their very ideology to be independant, thus they are chattel.

[USMarine3521]

you missed one

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/3057395.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DEE959D5F5905C1EC0E810B282E270B951

p-)

He looks like he would be Tracy McGrady's father :lol:

[Geezah]

[quote=XASA]I live in Falls Church, Virginia, which is "inside the Washington DC Beltway". It is one of the wealthiest and safest communities in the country. It is only seven miles from Washington, one of the poorest and dangerous communities in the country.

In Virginia, we have the right to carry a concealed weapon once we take a safety course. In Washington, it is illegal to own a handgun unless you are in law enforcement. The entire county that Falls Church is in had less than ten murders last year, most of them by people the victims knew. Washington has more murders per capita a year than any other similar sized city.

My point: gun control doesn't work and an armed citizenry is a deterrent to crime.[/quote



hmmm, so rather than addressing the root causes of violent crime let's all distribute guns to frightened white people? 'cause we all know from watching the news, reading newspapers, listening to republicans, that violent crimes are committed by "coloured folk". gun control is better than no control.

more books, less guns...

Finally the Soccer Mum has turned up(only joking),
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/stopKKK_s.jpg

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_order.jpg

So when you say "more books, less guns"........does that mean intellectuals aren't allowed to own guns?

Here's a few f quotes from famous intellectuals,


"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come is to teach men to shoot!"

Theodore Roosevelt,


"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."

Thomas Jefferson,


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."

The Dali Lama,


"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."

Mohandas Gandhi

How about more guns and more books!

[martinexsquaddie]

considering the us military spend more than the rest of the world put together on military hardware :roll:
your chances sixgun of stopping " the socialist tyranny of washington "
are approx the same as the IRA forcing the britsh army into the sea i.e. zero.

[Sixgun Symphony]

considering the us military spend more than the rest of the world put together on military hardware :roll:
your chances sixgun of stopping " the socialist tyranny of washington "
are approx the same as the IRA forcing the britsh army into the sea i.e. zero.

Why shoot at the military? Shoot the politicians.

Lee Harvey Oswald was a communist who deserved death, but he proved that even the most powerful man in the world can be dropped by the little guy. It is comforting to know that any man who would be Caesar can be taken out.

[Haiw]

...or any would be good politician can be taken out by every nutter as everyone can get a rifle! Good point! :roll:

[Sixgun Symphony]

...or any would be good politician can be taken out by every nutter as everyone can get a rifle! Good point! :roll:

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

Gun control laws can only disarm the law abiding population, so gun laws do nothing to stop such criminals. The only real defense is vigilance.

[Haiw]

Well maybe your country is already FUBAR on that part, but down here in the Netherlands it doesn't really pose much of a problem.
But hey, we don't suffer from government paranoia either... (and if we don't agree, we protest, or we vote 'em out... that's how democracy works)

[Geezah]

considering the us military spend more than the rest of the world put together on military hardware :roll:
your chances sixgun of stopping " the socialist tyranny of washington "
are approx the same as the IRA forcing the britsh army into the sea i.e. zero.

Ohio's Consitution
§ 1.04 Bearing arms; standing armies; military powers

The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up; and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.

pinkeyes quite happy with freedom of speech, but he would like freedoms like this taken away!

[Geezah]

It's just dawned on me how American I've become? even though I have yet to get my citizenship and I'm a Resident Alien I'm willing to defend the freedoms WE have over here.......but the only place to fight for those freedoms is through the ballet box! :)

[Geezah]

...or any would be good politician can be taken out by every nutter as everyone can get a rifle! Good point! :roll:

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

Gun control laws can only disarm the law abiding population, so gun laws do nothing to stop such criminals. The only real defense is vigilance.

I like you Sixgun :D

[Sixgun Symphony]

Well maybe your country is already FUBAR on that part, but down here in the Netherlands it doesn't really pose much of a problem.
But hey, we don't suffer from government paranoia either... (and if we don't agree, we protest, or we vote 'em out... that's how democracy works)

You need to go back and read why republicanism is better than democracy.

In this country, we have three ways to secure our freedom," remarked Idaho Senator Steve Symms, "The ballot box, the jury box, and if those don't work, the cartridge box."

You saw how the protests failed at Tiananmen Square, Peking on April - June 1989. So it really does come down to what Mao said about power.

[Sixgun Symphony]

It's just dawned on me how American I've become? even though I have yet to get my citizenship and I'm a Resident Alien I'm willing to defend the freedoms WE have over here.......but the only place to fight for those freedoms is through the ballet box! :)

There is alot that we inherited from England. Check this out.

"In England...A large proportion of the most valuable of the provisions in Magna Charta, and the bill of rights in 1688, consists of a solemn recognition, of limitations upon the power of parliament; that is, a declaration, that parliament ought not to abolish, or restrict those rights. Such are the right of trial by jury; the right to personal liberty and private property according to the law of the land; that the subjects ought to have a right to bear arms;..." Joseph Story, Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (1833), Book III at 718, § 1858.

A similar provision [to the Second Amendment] in favour of protestants (for to them it is confined) is to be found in the bill of rights of 1688, it being declared, 'that the subjects, which are protestants, may have arms for their defence suitable to their condition, and as allowed by law.' But under various pretences the effect of this provision has been greatly narrowed; and it is at present in England more nominal than real, as a defensive privilege." Joseph Story, Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (1833), Book III at 747, § 1891


http://www.constitution.org/js/js_344.htm

[Haiw]

You need to go back and read why republicanism is better than democracy.

In this country, we have three ways to secure our freedom," remarked Idaho Senator Steve Symms, "The ballot box, the jury box, and if those don't work, the cartridge box."

You saw how the protests failed at Tiananmen Square, Peking on April - June 1989. So it really does come down to what Mao said about power.
First; I don't agree with your opinion on why republicanism would be better than democracy. Second... protests failed at Tiananmen square because of the messed up government...not because the students didn't have guns. The students could have had all the guns they could carry and still they'd have been crushed by tanks.

So, what do you choose? A chance at 'defeating the government' that's only a paper tiger, or to legalise anti-tank weapons and MANPADs for the public as well? :roll:

[XASA]

I live in Falls Church, Virginia, which is "inside the Washington DC Beltway". It is one of the wealthiest and safest communities in the country. It is only seven miles from Washington, one of the poorest and dangerous communities in the country.

In Virginia, we have the right to carry a concealed weapon once we take a safety course. In Washington, it is illegal to own a handgun unless you are in law enforcement. The entire county that Falls Church is in had less than ten murders last year, most of them by people the victims knew. Washington has more murders per capita a year than any other similar sized city.

My point: gun control doesn't work and an armed citizenry is a deterrent to crime.

hmmm, so rather than addressing the root causes of violent crime let's all distribute guns to frightened white people? 'cause we all know from watching the news, reading newspapers, listening to republicans, that violent crimes are committed by "coloured folk". gun control is better than no control.

more books, less guns...

That is your interpetation of what I wrote and you are wrong. I said it was a deterrent not a remedy. If you wish, why not start another thread on the roots of crime and perhaps I might share my thoughts on that subject with you instead of trying to hijack this thread into a discussion of race and crime.

Falls Church, like most of Fairfax County, has a large African-American, Hispanic, Arab, African and Asian population and we all respect each other's culture, religion and the right to protect ourselves.

Also, everyone is very, very polite to one another-- you never can tell who might be packing ;)

[Sixgun Symphony]

First; I don't agree with your opinion on why republicanism would be better than democracy. Second... protests failed at Tiananmen square because of the messed up government...not because the students didn't have guns. The students could have had all the guns they could carry and still they'd have been crushed by tanks.

So, what do you choose? A chance at 'defeating the government' that's only a paper tiger, or to legalise anti-tank weapons and MANPADs for the public as well? :roll:

Democracy is mobocracy, it is the powerbase of the demagogue. Gang rape is majority rule, thus democracy in action.

Republicanism is far better than democracy.

You are right that China has a messed up government, What will you do if your government should become similarly messed up?

Elections may be rigged or a government may just call off the election. Protests? We saw the protestors in Tiananmen Square get rolled over by tanks. So if protests don't work, you either meekly accept the system or you pick up the cartridge box and fight.

Defeat a government? Shoot the politicians. Decapitate the monster and it will fall.

[XASA]

Sixgun, just when I think that you have learned to intellectually interact on a forum, you post drivel like this. Your repeated rants against most of the world governments regardless of their form of government leads me to think you are really a Fascist, although you probably wouldn't call yourself that.

Were you like this when you were in the military? If you were, how did you manage to survive? Were you a Section Eight? ;) Did your buddies ever give you a blanket party?

[Sixgun Symphony]

Xasa,

You really need to get an education. You don't know that most so called democracies are really republics. You like most sheeple like to speak about "democracy" and have no comprehension of it.

You ought to read the statements made by the founding fathers of our republic to see what they had to say about democracy and republicanism.

I wrote down alot of quotes taken from the founding fathers and their contemporaries. If they seem radical, they were radical. Remember that Jefferson, Madison, and the other founding father's had not only advocated the overthrow of the government, they did overthrow the government! :)

BTW, I did my job and go along fine. Conversations were usually about getting drunk and chasing pussy then.

[Elmo]

Elmo, aside from that my step-dad is a Finn, I know of a guy from Finland who's acctive on a number of online forums such as this one - and he has plenty of assault rifles. Also, you guys get to own suppressors without permits - how nice is that?
Check up on your legislation - I think it's less strict than in Norway.

I did now and it seems that you can get a permit for hunting and sports
but you have to have a permit to hunt first or a membership in a shooting club. Also you can't have an assault rifle which can fire rapid fire.

Apart from that some occupations require a weapon, of course, and in some cases they can be collector's items without a permission to have ammunition.

This suppressor thing sounds bad, I couldn't find anything on that. I'll contact my representative to change it!

Probably there are more guns around here that I know of but it's just that even when I've been quite active in the reserves I haven't really met people who have weapons at home.

[WolverineBlue]

Interesting thread, getting the opinions of our European friends on American gun laws.

Firstly, the United States is a democratic republic. We vote for representatives who then formulate our laws. The majority rules, but the minority is respected and has its rights kept intact.

Secondly, I too live in Fairfax County, VA. I am convinced that our low violent crime rate is due to that a lot of us either pack heat (concealed weapons permit) or that we have firearms available in our residences. I keep my 12-gauge ready to go with buckshot, magnum slug, buckshot, magnum slug :P

I also own a Romarms AK-47 (dirt cheap -- had to acquire it), a Bushmaster M-4 variant, a Moisin-Nagant (which my dad brought back from 'Nam), a .357 magnum revolver and my dad's service 1911...

[Sixgun Symphony]

Probably there are more guns around here that I know of...


More than you know.

I take it that you are an urbanite? I have corresponded with others from your country and they were all hunters, shooters. That you are so ignorant of the gun culture in your country leads me to believe that you are an urbanite and your socialist ideology leads me to believe that you probably spend alot of time in the coffeeshops.

[WolverineBlue]

Oh, and I have a Ruger .17 plinker with Leupold sight too! The 12-gauge is a Remington 870 Express riot gun.

[Elmo]

Would you take pepper spray over a rifle if you are sent off to war?



No, I'd drop my spray and beg for mercy by quoting Gandhi. If that worked I'd go to a POW camp where under the Geneva Convention I wouldn't have to do any physical labour.

[Geezah]

Interesting thread, getting the opinions of our European friends on American gun laws.

Firstly, the United States is a democratic republic. We vote for representatives who then formulate our laws. The majority rules, but the minority is respected and has its rights kept intact.

Secondly, I too live in Fairfax County, VA. I am convinced that our low violent crime rate is due to that a lot of us either pack heat (concealed weapons permit) or that we have firearms available in our residences. I keep my 12-gauge ready to go with buckshot, magnum slug, buckshot, magnum slug :P

I also own a Romarms AK-47 (dirt cheap -- had to acquire it), a Bushmaster M-4 variant, a Moisin-Nagant (which my dad brought back from 'Nam), a .357 magnum revolver and my dad's service 1911...

And you post on AK-47.Net maybe? I have a Wasr-10(hi-cap) a Bushy M4A3, Mossberg 500a, Ruger 10/22(tricked out) Sig P229(9mm) and a Sig P239(9mm)

[Shake n Bake]

Would you take pepper spray over a rifle if you are sent off to war?



No, I'd drop my spray and beg for mercy by quoting Gandhi. If that worked I'd go to a POW camp where under the Geneva Convention I wouldn't have to do any physical labour.


Your joking..Right??




What a sad sack of ****

[Geezah]

Would you take pepper spray over a rifle if you are sent off to war?



No, I'd drop my spray and beg for mercy by quoting Gandhi. If that worked I'd go to a POW camp where under the Geneva Convention I wouldn't have to do any physical labour.

What this?


"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."??

[WolverineBlue]

Lock and load, Geezah! :lol:

Nope, never posted on AK-47.net...

I want to get a new pistol (.40, 10mm, whatever) -- I'm thinking either Sig or H&K? Any recommendations, anyone?

[Sixgun Symphony]

I post on http://glocktalk.com/ regularly.

It is a good, informative website! :)

[XASA]

Interesting thread, getting the opinions of our European friends on American gun laws.

Firstly, the United States is a democratic republic. We vote for representatives who then formulate our laws. The majority rules, but the minority is respected and has its rights kept intact.

Secondly, I too live in Fairfax County, VA. I am convinced that our low violent crime rate is due to that a lot of us either pack heat (concealed weapons permit) or that we have firearms available in our residences. I keep my 12-gauge ready to go with buckshot, magnum slug, buckshot, magnum slug :P

I also own a Romarms AK-47 (dirt cheap -- had to acquire it), a Bushmaster M-4 variant, a Moisin-Nagant (which my dad brought back from 'Nam), a .357 magnum revolver and my dad's service 1911...

Welcome to militaryphotos.net neighbor!

I've got one of everything in my closet, too.

[Elmo]

I take it that you are an urbanite? I have corresponded with others from your country and they were all hunters, shooters. That you are so ignorant of the gun culture in your country leads me to believe that you are an urbanite and your socialist ideology leads me to believe that you probably spend alot of time in the coffeeshops.

Oh, that would be in the Netherlands. I do like coffee...is it against the NRA policy?

Yes, I do live in a city, although apart from Helsinki the cities are so small that you are in the wilderness in 15 minutes.

You are one irritated ultra-right winger, aren't you? Why are you so...full of hate?

I know. Yoda can help us:

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Would you take pepper spray over a rifle if you are sent off to war?



No, I'd drop my spray and beg for mercy by quoting Gandhi. If that worked I'd go to a POW camp where under the Geneva Convention I wouldn't have to do any physical labour.

You must be French. rofl

Kidding aside, you see my point about only having pepper spray when lethal force is warranted?

[Sixgun Symphony]

Oh, that would be in the Netherlands. I do like coffee...is it against the NRA policy?

Yes, I do live in a city, although apart from Helsinki the cities are so small that you are in the wilderness in 15 minutes.

You are one irritated ultra-right winger, aren't you? Why are you so...full of hate?

I know. Yoda can help us:

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate.


I bring up coffeeshops because you seem to be the stereotypical "coffeeshop marxist". If you were a beatnik then it would complete the picture.

I think the importiant fact is that you are an urbanite and thus do not know of the gun culture in your own country. You really need to get out more and socialize beyond your little circle of peers that think the same way you do.

Hate? Where have I been hateful in this conversation?

[Geezah]

Lock and load, Geezah! :lol:

Nope, never posted on AK-47.net...

I want to get a new pistol (.40, 10mm, whatever) -- I'm thinking either Sig or H&K? Any recommendations, anyone?

Given the rivalry between Glock and Sig and the fact I own two Sigs, I won't try to hard to sway your thi(SIg)nking but really you should try(SIG)both and see which(SIG) one you prefer, glock are nice but you can't beat SIG, their pricey but worth every penny.

From allot of the Sig guys they say that Sig and H&K are rated the same but H&K you pay more but this is from guys that have tried both.

I got both mine in 9mm mainly because good ammo is inexpensive and I get the heavy grain home defense ammo.

Also you should checkout AK-47.Net many like minded people plus there are a few members already posting over here, I also post on Sigforum.com

[Geezah]

Oh, that would be in the Netherlands. I do like coffee...is it against the NRA policy?

Yes, I do live in a city, although apart from Helsinki the cities are so small that you are in the wilderness in 15 minutes.

You are one irritated ultra-right winger, aren't you? Why are you so...full of hate?

I know. Yoda can help us:

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate.


I bring up coffeeshops because you seem to be the stereotypical "coffeeshop marxist". If you were a beatnik then it would complete the picture.

Hate? Where have I been hateful in this conversation?

Maybe he isn't able to attack what you posted so next best thing attack you directly!

[kinghk]

In Norway we have more guns per citizen then Texas they say,and that is guns for hunting.



I would like to see the source of that.




Last year the police issued "Guns Amnesty".they hoped that people with nonregistrated weapon would delever them and they wouldnt be sued for illegal possesion of weapon.



The gun amnesty is still open. The largest majority of the unregistered weapons is legal however. And you don't get sued for owning a illegal weapon, you will fined or jailed.




Not so many people used that posibility,and there still is about one shotgun pr citizen, or more.



Bull****. The amount of shotguns is unknown, but the number of unregistrated is presumed to be "some hundred thousands". The total amount of civilian weapons is belived to be about 1.5 million, or about 1 weapon pr. 3 citizens.




The most prefferd weapon used in killing are in fact shotguns.Easy to come by.



Nope, it is knife. Shoutgun was the preferred firearm last year, but it varies. Check out the statistics at
http://www.kripos.no/statistikker/index.html




But when someone uses a military weapon they exaggertate it in the news and therefore the Nationalguard collected the spring and the firing pin from all the rifles.But officers still have their Glock 17 and ammunition.



True, but anyone can order a firing pin for 10$ from internet.




By doing so a lot of the enlisted men in the Nationalguard became members of the Reserveofficers union and and got the parts out again.
And ammo aint hard to get.



Uh, how do privates from the Home Guard join the Reserveofficers union?
There is other ways to get the firing pins back, btw.

[WolverineBlue]

For some unexplainable reason, I never liked Glocks...I like the more mechanical look and feel of the Sigs and HK's.

Thanks for the advice about the other boards.

I see our boy Malvo is going to spend the rest of his life rotting in prison...thank God.

[spoonman]

This suppressor thing sounds bad, I couldn't find anything on that. I'll contact my representative to change it!


jesus christ. i am glad your complete lack of knowledge on the subject does not prevent you from forming an opinion.(=idiota)

the internet gun control debate is pointless. it does make a lot of people look stupid by exposing their lack of firearms knowledge. (you know who you are.)

[Geezah]

For some unexplainable reason, I never liked Glocks...I like the more mechanical look and feel of the Sigs and HK's.

Thanks for the advice about the other boards.

I see our boy Malvo is going to spend the rest of his life rotting in prison...thank God.

I chose my Sig P226 because I heard(?) the SAS had dropped the Highpower and moved over to Sig, I thought if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me :)

It's a shame he was lucky enough to get life :( let him fry!

[Sixgun Symphony]

Glocks? Sigs? Browning Hi Powers?

I still use my Colt 357 and my Colt Detective Special. :)

My Colt 357 has a six inch barrel and this design predates the Python. Basically the same, but without the ventilated rib on top of the barrel and the hand ejector rod is exposed under the barrel rather than enclosed in an underlug like on the Python.

I usually load with my own cast 168gr Keith bullets over a stout load of 2400.

My Detective Special is .38 caliber and very easy to shoot, very accurrate. I can put all the shots in the black at twenty five yards.

[BlackRain]

If more guns made a safer nation, then the USA would be the safest country on Earth. This goes for other nations with slack and absolutely asinine gun laws, such as Russia, South Africa etc.

I am completely baffled by this American infatuation with arms and civilian right to own weapons. The fabrication that ‘handguns’ protect us is so stupid. Spare me the comments regarding ‘well criminals will find weapons anyway’ as it is in no way correlated to civilian crimes. M16’s, pistols, Mac 10’s are only meant for one purpose, to kill other humans, and does one really need this ‘liberty’?

Handguns are dangerous as they can be concealed too easily. Automatic weapons should only be held in the hands of the military. If someone wants a weapon for home protection, I suggest a shotgun, or hunting rifle, not an ak47. As well, the weapons that should be allowed within the confines of a home are those that are used for recreational hunting only. Look at Columbine shooting, Washington Sniper, Lee Harvey Oswald, the Hollywood bank robbers. These actions should raise concern, regarding the legitimate sales and availability of military weapons.

US Gun Information

Semi-automatic firearms were introduced more than a century ago. The first semi-automatic rifle, a Mannlicher, was introduced in 1885; the first semi-automatic pistol, a Schonberger, in 1892; and John Browning patented his famous Auto-5 semi-automatic shotgun in 1900. President John F. Kennedy, an National Rifle Association Life Member, owned an M1, a semi-automatic rifle used by the U.S. Armed Forces during World War II and the Korean War, and owned by hundreds of thousands of competitive target shooters and collectors today.

Americans own about 30 million semi-automatics--about 15% of all guns. Semi-autos are used for the same purposes as other firearms: target shooting, hunting, and protection. AR-15s, M1As, and M1s are the most popular center-fire target rifles in America, easily outnumbering all other rifles in the annual National Rifle and Pistol Championships. Semi-automatic pistols dominate NRA Bullseye and Action Pistol, Int`l Practical Shooting Confederation, and Int`l Defensive Pistol Ass`n competitions. Semi-automatic shotguns are used for skeet, trap, sporting clays, and hunting. Semi-automatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns are also used for protection. Some have historic value and are popular with collectors. Handguns are the type of gun most often used for protection, and about three-fourths of new handguns sold today are semi-automatic.

Semi-automatics are not disproportionately used to commit violent crimes. A study for Congress found that semi-autos affected by the Clinton "assault weapon" ban "were never used in more than a modest fraction of all gun murders," and that the ban`s 10-round limit on new ammunition magazines isn`t a factor in multiple-victim or multiple-wound crimes.2 A follow-up study found "gunshot injury incidents involving pistols (which use magazines) were less likely to produce a death than were those involving revolvers" and "the average number of wounds for pistol victims was actually lower than that for revolver victims."3 Police reports and felon surveys have always shown that "assault weapons" are used in only 1%-2% of violent crimes.4 Crime victim surveys indicate the figure is only 0.25%.5 Murders with knives, clubs and hands outnumber those with AWs by more than 20-to-1.6

More semi-automatics and other firearms, less crime.

Since 1991, the nation`s violent crime rate has decreased every year, 35% overall, to a 27-year low, according to the FBI.7 According to federal crime victim surveys, violent crime is at a 30-year low.8 Meanwhile, the number of privately-owned firearms, including millions of semi-automatics, has risen by more than 60 million.9 The number of semi-automatic firearm magazines that hold more than 10 rounds (a fraction of all magazines) has risen by 50 million since 1994.10 Today, there are more firearms, including more semi-automatics, than ever.

http://www.nraila.org/images/MGLC.jpg

[b00n]

I like guns of all kinds, but reading the a-human-right.com bull**** and sixguns posts i really have a need to throw up....

:roll:

[Elmo]

I bring up coffeeshops because you seem to be the stereotypical "coffeeshop marxist". If you were a beatnik then it would complete the picture.

I think the importiant fact is that you are an urbanite and thus do not know of the gun culture in your own country. You really need to get out more and socialize beyond your little circle of peers that think the same way you do.

Hate? Where have I been hateful in this conversation?

Yeah, you haven't been hateful. I thought you accused me of being a pothead but you apparently didn't.

You are right, there are guns. I wouldn't call it gun culture, because guns are not an issue here. If you have a good reason like hunting, you can get the gun. Otherwise there is no chance. The government takes care of protection.

One thing: you don't know who I hang out with so those assumptions you made about my character are just pointless.

[BlackRain]

Self Defense and Our Guns ~ American Style

Survey research during the early 1990s by criminologist Gary Kleck found as many as 2.5 million protective uses of guns each year in the U.S. "(T)he best available evidence indicates that guns were used about three to five times as often for defensive purposes as for criminal purposes," Kleck writes. Analyzing National Crime Victimization Survey data, he found "robbery and assault victims who used a gun to resist were less likely to be attacked or to suffer an injury than those who used any other methods of self-protection or those who did not resist at all." (Targeting Guns, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997)

In most defensive gun uses, the gun is not fired. In only 1% of instances are criminals wounded, and in only 0.1% are criminals killed.

A Dept. of Justice survey found that 40% of felons chose not to commit at least some crimes for fear their victims were armed, and 34% admitted having been scared off or shot at by armed victims. (James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous, Aldine de Gruyter, 1986)

Thirty-six states now have Right-to-Carry (RTC) laws providing for law-abiding citizens to carry guns for protection. Twenty-six states have adopted RTC laws in the last 15 years. Half of Americans, including 60% of handgun owners, live in RTC states.

Professor John R. Lott, Jr., and David B. Mustard, in the most comprehensive study to date of RTC laws` effectiveness concluded, "When state concealed-handgun laws went into effect in a county, murders fell about 8 percent, rapes fell by 5 percent, and aggravated assaults fell by 7 percent." (Lott, More Guns, Less Crime, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1998)

RTC states have lower violent crime rates on average: 24% lower total violent crime, 22% lower murder, 37% lower robbery, and 20% lower aggravated assault. The five states with the lowest violent crime rates are RTC states. (FBI) People who carry legally are by far more law-abiding than the rest of the public.

[BlackRain]

Falls Church, like most of Fairfax County, has a large African-American, Hispanic, Arab, African and Asian population and we all respect each other's culture, religion and the right to protect ourselves.

Also, everyone is very, very polite to one another-- you never can tell who might be packing ;)

Very true! I live near Quantico Virginia and I can attest to that fact. The maintenance man the cleans our parking lot even has a shoulder holster.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I bring up coffeeshops because you seem to be the stereotypical "coffeeshop marxist". If you were a beatnik then it would complete the picture.

I think the importiant fact is that you are an urbanite and thus do not know of the gun culture in your own country. You really need to get out more and socialize beyond your little circle of peers that think the same way you do.

Hate? Where have I been hateful in this conversation?

Yeah, you haven't been hateful. I thought you accused me of being a pothead but you apparently didn't.

You are right, there are guns. I wouldn't call it gun culture, because guns are not an issue here. If you have a good reason like hunting, you can get the gun. Otherwise there is no chance. The government takes care of protection.

One thing: you don't know who I hang out with so those assumptions you made about my character are just pointless.


You probably equate "gun culture" with criminals. But the real gun culture are sportsmen, hunters, and others who use guns. There is alot of variety there, from the hoity toity trap and skeet shooters with their shotguns that cost more than most automobiles to the casual plinkers with inexpensive .22's. Again, you need to get out more and see it.

Hateful? Many liberals say that to anyone that disagrees with them. So you will have to be specific rather than make a broad generalization.

Now I will retract the "coffeeshop marxist" comment, but damnit, you got that commie clenched fist salute for your avatar.

[BlackRain]

Now I will retract the "coffeeshop marxist" comment, but damnit, you got that commie clenched fist salute for your avatar.

Actually, I think it is a "Rage Against the Machine" avatar. You should check out this groups official website.

There is list of recommend reading is a real eye opener. http://www.ratm.com/new2/action/readinglist.html

Some examples of "non marxist" literature .....

"The State and Revolution"
V.I. Lenin

"Revolutionary Suicide"
Huey P. Newton

"The Anarchist Cookbook"
William Powell

"International Terrorism and the CIA"
Mumia Abu-Jamal
"A New Society: Reflections for Today's World"
by Che Guevara; edited by David Deutschmann

"The Marx-Engels Reader (2nd ed.)"
Robert C. Tucker, Editor

[California Joe]

Interesting thread, getting the opinions of our European friends on American gun laws.

Firstly, the United States is a democratic republic. We vote for representatives who then formulate our laws. The majority rules, but the minority is respected and has its rights kept intact.

Secondly, I too live in Fairfax County, VA. I am convinced that our low violent crime rate is due to that a lot of us either pack heat (concealed weapons permit) or that we have firearms available in our residences. I keep my 12-gauge ready to go with buckshot, magnum slug, buckshot, magnum slug :P

I also own a Romarms AK-47 (dirt cheap -- had to acquire it), a Bushmaster M-4 variant, a Moisin-Nagant (which my dad brought back from 'Nam), a .357 magnum revolver and my dad's service 1911...

Welcome to militaryphotos.net neighbor!

I've got one of everything in my closet, too.

As do I. Lot's of Virginians here today. Although I live out in east underpants King George County.

[Elmo]

You probably equate "gun culture" with criminals. But the real gun culture are sportsmen, hunters, and others who use guns. There is alot of variety there, from the hoity toity trap and skeet shooters with their shotguns that cost more than most automobiles to the casual plinkers with inexpensive .22's. Again, you need to get out more and see it.



What I was referring to as gun culture was the claim based on one of the amendments in your law plus that home protection law that everyone has a right to carry a weapon in order to be able to protect oneself. This is more the issue here than shooting as a sport or hunting. Any 18 year old can't walk into a store and buy a rifle in here.

But I think we can agree that we disagree in about everything that has to do with state intervention.

About avatars. Yours is at least as provocative as mine!

[Tributal]

Also you can't have an assault rifle which can fire rapid fire.Any selfloading wepaon can fire rapidly (it's all in how fast you can pull the trigger) - what you mean is automatic fire.


This suppressor thing sounds bad, I couldn't find anything on that. I'll contact my representative to change it!Hold your horses! As you know hunting is quite popular in Finland (as it is in most Nordic countries) - suppressors has a very beneficial use for hunting, and I wish I would have the same unrestricted access to them.

Anyway, as you know firearms are loud, and therefore you use ear protection when you're on a range etc etc. However, when you are out hunting you need to be able to hear the wild game you are hunting and ear protection will make that difficult. Yes I know there are active-listening earprotection such as Peltor ComTac's and whatnot, but even then it's hard to tell the direction of a sound. This is where a suppressor comes in handy. Since you don't have anything preventing your hearing you can hear the slightest sound (and it's direction) and you can fire your rifle without going deaf.

Also, at times you might be close habitated areas where you want to keep the noice-level down too.

I know that in Sweden you can get a permit for a suppressor if you have a documented hearing problem - the sucky part is that you can't get a permit because you want to PREVENT getting a hearing problem.
:bash:

[cbreedon]

What are the laws in Switzerland and Israel? It was my understanding that most men are in the reserves and keep the guns and uniforms at home. I would think that gun crime is lower in both those places than the US and they have higher gun ownership. I could be wrong but that's what I have read so it must be true.

[MEGR]

I love my CETME :)

http://www.terra.es/personal7/cetme-c/cetme%20sin%20caja.jpg

[fred_engles]

What are the laws in Switzerland and Israel? It was my understanding that most men are in the reserves and keep the guns and uniforms at home.Swiss reservists keep their guns at home, but Israeli reservists do not.

[EYE SPY]

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html

This basically sums up the issues about the Whole Right To Bear Arms Debate.

My take is, if you want to bear arms, join the National Guard. Thats what the framers meant, in my opinion. Otherwise i dont see the need in civilians owning guns.

Furthermore, i think it is the most adamnt of these "Guns dont Kill People, I kill People" folks need to get thier heads checked.

The way they speak of guns, it causes one to doubt wether they are able to have a normal relation, if any to the opposite ***.

Guns are not glamorous, Guns are not something to love. Guns are not symbols of freedom.

Guns are machines. They are tools.

Imagine if people started hanging up posters of a jackhammer, or a jigsaw, or a socket-wrench set.

It would look ridiculous wouldnt it?
You'd probably think these people have a mental problem, an obsession.

Guns are tools. They are not toys. People collect them as if they are trading cards, GI Joes or whatever it is kids today collect. Its unhealthy, stupid and its folks like these that totally corrupt the arguments put forth by the pro-gun ownership crowd.

And the Pro-Gun advertisements shown in the opening post for this thread are obscene examples of Propaganda.

This whole gun nut NRA campaign basically follows the Rules of Propaganda to a T, or should i say P

1) Rule of Simplification:

reducing all data to a simple confrontation between 'Good and Bad'; 'Freind and Foe'.

2) Rule of Disfiguration:

discrediting the opposition by crude smears and parodies.

3) Rule of Transfusion:

manipulating the consensus values of the target audience for one's own ends.

4) Rule of Unanimity:

presenting one's viewpoint as if it were the unanimous opinion of all right-thinking people: drawing the doubting individual into agreement by the appeal of star-performers, by social pressure, and by 'psychological contagion'.

5) Rule of Orchestration:

endlessly repeating the same messages in different variations and combinations.

[Sixgun Symphony]

You probably equate "gun culture" with criminals. But the real gun culture are sportsmen, hunters, and others who use guns. There is alot of variety there, from the hoity toity trap and skeet shooters with their shotguns that cost more than most automobiles to the casual plinkers with inexpensive .22's. Again, you need to get out more and see it.



What I was referring to as gun culture was the claim based on one of the amendments in your law plus that home protection law that everyone has a right to carry a weapon in order to be able to protect oneself. This is more the issue here than shooting as a sport or hunting. Any 18 year old can't walk into a store and buy a rifle in here.

But I think we can agree that we disagree in about everything that has to do with state intervention.

About avatars. Yours is at least as provocative as mine!

Well it is true that the 2nd Amendment to our constitution has nothing to do with sport. But most of the 'gun culture' are sportsmen and hunters. Of course, a nation with alot of hunters and sportsmen makes it a nation of riflemen. Now that type of social environment is not a safe one for oppressive tyrants, which is why every oppressive government has passed laws to disarm the people.

[James]

Xasa,

You really need to get an education. You don't know that most so called democracies are really republics. You like most sheeple like to speak about "democracy" and have no comprehension of it.


Sixgun,

You really ought to check out some of the things XASA has written in the past. I think you might reconsider this statement.

Just a thought.

[ibstolidude]

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html

This basically sums up the issues about the Whole Right To Bear Arms Debate.

My take is, if you want to bear arms, join the National Guard. Thats what the framers meant, in my opinion. Otherwise i dont see the need in civilians owning guns.
- Regardless of my position on the debate -
That is not quite an accurate portrayal

the Right to Bear arms was ensured in the Constitution because the both the Federalists and the Confederits agreed upon was that step had to be taken to ensure a dictorship or monarchy style government could not come about from a president (or government body) taking office and not relequishing it. One way to do this was to offer the right to Keep and Bear Arms as opposed to the common law in a monarchy were in the common man may not keep arms.

Incidently this fear was one of the reasons George Washington was picked as the first President..... he had no sons.

read the memiors and letters (or the minutes) of the framers themselves.

[James]

As far as I'm concerned, people can have all the personal firearms they like - as long as they strictly obey a 100 mile exclusion zone around me and my loved ones at all times.

I'd have to disagree. Being in the proximity of a legally licensed, well-trained armed person is a comforting thought.

I'm glad to hear that Ms. Nawlins.

I like to think that there is a bubble of safety around me whenever I am carrying my pistol.

[Sixgun Symphony]

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html

This basically sums up the issues about the Whole Right To Bear Arms Debate.

My take is, if you want to bear arms, join the National Guard. Thats what the framers meant, in my opinion. Otherwise i dont see the need in civilians owning guns.

Go back and read the quotes I posted. Your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is at odds with what the founding fathers had to say about the issue.



Furthermore, i think it is the most adamnt of these "Guns dont Kill People, I kill People" folks need to get thier heads checked.

Guns do not pick themselves up and shoot people. Guns are inanimate objects. It is people that kill people and it matters not the weapon used. A gun, a knife, a cudgel, or bare hands... dead is dead.



The way they speak of guns, it causes one to doubt wether they are able to have a normal relation, if any to the opposite ***.

You pulled that statement out of your own prejudices and venom against the gun culture




Guns are not glamorous, Guns are not something to love. Guns are not symbols of freedom.

Guns are machines. They are tools.

Imagine if people started hanging up posters of a jackhammer, or a jigsaw, or a socket-wrench set.

It would look ridiculous wouldnt it?
You'd probably think these people have a mental problem, an obsession.

Guns are tools. They are not toys. People collect them as if they are trading cards, GI Joes or whatever it is kids today collect. Its unhealthy, stupid and its folks like these that totally corrupt the arguments put forth by the pro-gun ownership crowd.

Automobiles, motorcycles, airplanes are like guns. They are machines, they are tools. People hang posters up of these machines. Motorcycles represent freedom. People love their cars. Airplanes have always been glamorous. So too do many firearms represent these things. The minuteman holding his Kentucky Rifle represents freedom, the character James Bond with his Walther PPK is certainly glamorous, and people love their toys if they happen to be cars, motorcycles, airplanes, or guns.

You got the obsession, the gun owners would not be so political if not for obsessed people like you and Bill Clinton out there trying to ban our guns.





And the Pro-Gun advertisements shown in the opening post for this thread are obscene examples of Propaganda.

You spread alot of your own leftist propaganda here on these boards. That this is a forum for military photographs, I find it an odd place for a bedwetting liberal like you. Shouldn't you be smoking grass at a Gratefull Dead concert or something?

[George W. Bush]

Firearms protect freedom.

[spoonman]

you want propaganda? check out the violence policy center and the brady group. i am doing a statistical report on their sources and i have never seen such a skewed set of "facts" and "figures" in all my life. it is shocking that they can be passed off as legitimate organizations.

[Trigger]

Furthermore, i think it is the most adamnt of these "Guns dont Kill People, I kill People" folks need to get thier heads checked.

The way they speak of guns, it causes one to doubt wether they are able to have a normal relation, if any to the opposite ***.

Guns are not glamorous, Guns are not something to love. Guns are not symbols of freedom.

Guns are machines. They are tools.

Imagine if people started hanging up posters of a jackhammer, or a jigsaw, or a socket-wrench set.

It would look ridiculous wouldnt it?
You'd probably think these people have a mental problem, an obsession.

Guns are tools. They are not toys. People collect them as if they are trading cards, GI Joes or whatever it is kids today collect. Its unhealthy, stupid and its folks like these that totally corrupt the arguments put forth by the pro-gun ownership crowd.

And the Pro-Gun advertisements shown in the opening post for this thread are obscene examples of Propaganda.

This whole gun nut NRA campaign basically follows the Rules of Propaganda to a T, or should i say P

2) Rule of Disfiguration:

discrediting the opposition by crude smears and parodies.

So does your 'anti gun nut' campaign ;)

[SOG]

As far as I'm concerned, people can have all the personal firearms they like - as long as they strictly obey a 100 mile exclusion zone around me and my loved ones at all times.

I'd have to disagree. Being in the proximity of a legally licensed, well-trained armed person is a comforting thought.

hey babeee ;)

[Sixgun Symphony]

So is everyone packing Sigs and Glocks these days or am I a dinosaur in carrying a Colt revolver?

[Beowulf]

So is everyone packing Sigs and Glocks these days or am I a dinosaur in carrying a Colt revolver?

Walther P99 in .40 flavor, for concealed carry. Yes, you are a dinosaur; hurry up and go synthetic.

[James]

.45 Government Model. I'm old school. ;)

[Jack Mehoff]

As far as I'm concerned, people can have all the personal firearms they like - as long as they strictly obey a 100 mile exclusion zone around me and my loved ones at all times.

I'd have to disagree. Being in the proximity of a legally licensed, well-trained armed person is a comforting thought.

I'm glad to hear that Ms. Nawlins.

I like to think that there is a bubble of safety around me whenever I am carrying my pistol.

Correction: Mrs. Nawlins :( :lol:

[Ratamacue]

.45 Government Model. I'm old school. ;)

Only the best. ;)

[martinexsquaddie]

So if there are all these responsible gun owners in the US?
who's cluttering ER up with gunshot wounds?

[Beowulf]

So if there are all these responsible gun owners in the US?
who's cluttering ER up with gunshot wounds?

Yo momma

[Ichhabe]

Sixgun Symphony said:


My Detective Special is .38 caliber and very easy to shoot, very accurrate. I can put all the shots in the black at twenty five yards.

http://www.canaxa.se/bilder/miltavlor/90010.gif

A medic in my unit shot with a Glock 17 from 50 meters, and all the shots were inside the 10-circle. :D

[SOG]

So if there are all these responsible gun owners in the US?
who's cluttering ER up with gunshot wounds?

uh, its been stated several times the leading causes of gunshot wounds in the US are self inflicted (suicide, leading cause) and crime on crime (gang vs gang or criminal activity disputes with hundreds of thousands of gang and criminal element members across the US) or crime on civilian.

the case of white collars (average worker human) going nuts is quite low yet highly publicized. im guessing these cases are highly publicized NOT to derail law abiding gun owners as some righty tightys would state but because they are RARE in nature and thus quite news.

i know for a fact locally, just by listening to a buddies police scanner, there are a unbelievable amount of criminal shootings that happen daily that never make the news, but a disgruntled white collar worker who pops his wife for being unfaithfull gets prime time local coverage.

one of the very interesting things is large cities in the US are the grounds in which "most" of these elements conflict. large cities are bursting with poverty, crime and drugs. i have talked to a numerous amounts of friends and also seen many here talk about thier local criminal element in the united states and again, and the larger cities seem to be a breeding ground for this sort of violence.

hell i agree with ducimus that the federal government should stop blowing money on "some" stupid projects and start spending it on "we the people". creating jobs, structures, better education, focusing on REAL problems like why people turn to crime, live a life of crime and break that mold. no, our politicians bandaid is throw more police at the job.

sitting in another country hundreds or thousands of miles away and stating something should be taken away from them when you dont live thier reality, life or passions or think they should "magically" live yours is ludicrous. should we, world wide, think alike, do alike, live alike and if not forcefully pursue others till they do? this has been the cause of millions of lost lives world wise in how many wars and they, the same who dispise this projective forcing of international will upon how others live, propell the very doctorine to hatefull heights across the net.

[Mark Sman]

Again.

I will jump into this talk.

I will not state that weapons make my house safer or less safe.

I will state my personal preferance.

I prefer to be armed. I accept that idea as including a level of danger and responsibility.

I'll take it. Thats just me. Anyone who has problems with it is welcome to discuss it. I can think of many arguments both ways.

At the end of the day, I have made my choice, and I'm glad the choice was mine and mine alone.

[Truthsayer]

And the Pro-Gun advertisements shown in the opening post for this thread are obscene examples of Propaganda.

You spread alot of your own leftist propaganda here on these boards. That this is a forum for military photographs, I find it an odd place for a bedwetting liberal like you. Shouldn't you be smoking grass at a Gratefull Dead concert or something?

Are there any moderators actively reading and moderating this forum...?


It would be fun if Sixgun posted some facts to back his claims up or post other reference then the NRA, but insted he flames anyone not agreeing wholeheartedly...it's getting annoying.

[BlackRain]

And the Pro-Gun advertisements shown in the opening post for this thread are obscene examples of Propaganda.

You spread alot of your own leftist propaganda here on these boards. That this is a forum for military photographs, I find it an odd place for a bedwetting liberal like you. Shouldn't you be smoking grass at a Gratefull Dead concert or something?

Are there any moderators actively reading and moderating this forum...?


It would be fun if Sixgun posted some facts to back his claims up or post other reference then the NRA, but insted he flames anyone not agreeing wholeheartedly...it's getting annoying.

Do you need mommy to hold your hand in a forum or are you for censorship?

[Geezah]

Glocks? Sigs? Browning Hi Powers?

I still use my Colt 357 and my Colt Detective Special. :)

My Colt 357 has a six inch barrel and this design predates the Python. Basically the same, but without the ventilated rib on top of the barrel and the hand ejector rod is exposed under the barrel rather than enclosed in an underlug like on the Python.

I usually load with my own cast 168gr Keith bullets over a stout load of 2400.

My Detective Special is .38 caliber and very easy to shoot, very accurrate. I can put all the shots in the black at twenty five yards.

You sound like my Father-In-Law, he can't stand semi-pistols, he prefers wheel guns as he calls them and poo poos me everytime I talk about Sig :D

I got too a Colt and Ruger .357, I didn't like the Ruger too much of a hair trigger ;)

[Geezah]

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html

This basically sums up the issues about the Whole Right To Bear Arms Debate.

My take is, if you want to bear arms, join the National Guard. Thats what the framers meant, in my opinion. Otherwise i dont see the need in civilians owning guns.


I'm glad that's your opinion and we're all entitled to our own but you may have selective reading abilities, please tell me where it states that I need to join the NATIONAL GUARD in Ohio's Constitution???


The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up; and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.

Nowhere in there does it say anything about hunting? it states that I have the right to bear arms for defense and security and if you hate that idea so much you should take up residence in England!

[Geezah]

you want propaganda? check out the violence policy center and the brady group. i am doing a statistical report on their sources and i have never seen such a skewed set of "facts" and "figures" in all my life. it is shocking that they can be passed off as legitimate organizations.

Arrrhhhhh.......Mrs Brady the criminal rofl

[Geezah]

So if there are all these responsible gun owners in the US?
who's cluttering ER up with gunshot wounds?

There are close to 80 millions gun owners in America, I'm guessing those are legally owned guns then you have the ILLEGALLY owned ones which somehow cause problems when in the hands of CRIMINALS?

[Geezah]

And the Pro-Gun advertisements shown in the opening post for this thread are obscene examples of Propaganda.

You spread alot of your own leftist propaganda here on these boards. That this is a forum for military photographs, I find it an odd place for a bedwetting liberal like you. Shouldn't you be smoking grass at a Gratefull Dead concert or something?

Are there any moderators actively reading and moderating this forum...?


It would be fun if Sixgun posted some facts to back his claims up or post other reference then the NRA, but insted he flames anyone not agreeing wholeheartedly...it's getting annoying.

Now why do you sound as if you're running the Democrapic campaign?

[Geezah]

So is everyone packing Sigs and Glocks these days or am I a dinosaur in carrying a Colt revolver?

Hey, you're not a dino, I considered getting a S&W in 44mag but was pulled towards the Sig, there's just something about them :hug:

[ibstolidude]

John Stossel did a great series of pieces on debunking common American myths. One of the pieces titled : Myth No. 3 — Guns are Bad



America is notorious for its culture of gun violence. Guns sometimes do cause terrible harm, and many kids are killed every year in gun accidents. But public service announcements and news stories make it seem as if the accidents kill thousands of kids every year.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, however, fewer than 100 kids 15 and under are killed in gun accidents every year. Of course that's horrible, and I understand why demonstrators say we need more gun control.

But guess what? The Centers for Disease Control recently completed a review of studies of various types of gun control: background checks, waiting periods, bans on certain guns and ammunition. It could not document that these rules have reduced violent crime.

The government wants to say things like the Brady Gun Control Law are making a difference, but they aren't. Some maximum security felons I spoke to in New Jersey scoffed at measures like the Brady law. They said they'll have no trouble getting guns if they want them.

A Justice Department study confirmed what the prisoners said. But get this: the felons say that the thing they fear the most is not the police, not time in prison, but, you, another American who might be armed.

It's a reason many states are passing gun un-control. They're allowing citizens to carry guns with them; it's called concealed carry or right to carry. Some women say they're comforted by these laws.

Many people are horrified at the idea of concealed carry laws, and predict mayhem if all states adopt these laws.

But surprise, 36 states already have concealed carry laws, and not one reported an upsurge in gun crime.


That is just a portion - the pices actually states the statistic of legally registered weapons used in crime v/s illegal weapons, the shocking high statistics of crimes deterred by legally registered weapons.

Seeing the actually CDC's statistics and research, and the like, actualy surprised me and I am very moderate on this issue.

[WolverineBlue]

Good morning.

First, RIP to the victims of the Basque terrorists in Spain -- horrid.

Secondly, RIP to the Wizards (victims of a 62-point outburst by T-Mac) and the Capitals (6-0 losers to the Sabres).

Thirdly, I just cleaned my M4....mmmm...nothing like the smell of Hoppe's in the morning.

[Geezah]

John Stossel did a great series of pieces on debunking common American myths. One of the pieces titled : Myth No. 3 — Guns are Bad



America is notorious for its culture of gun violence. Guns sometimes do cause terrible harm, and many kids are killed every year in gun accidents. But public service announcements and news stories make it seem as if the accidents kill thousands of kids every year.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, however, fewer than 100 kids 15 and under are killed in gun accidents every year. Of course that's horrible, and I understand why demonstrators say we need more gun control.

But guess what? The Centers for Disease Control recently completed a review of studies of various types of gun control: background checks, waiting periods, bans on certain guns and ammunition. It could not document that these rules have reduced violent crime.

The government wants to say things like the Brady Gun Control Law are making a difference, but they aren't. Some maximum security felons I spoke to in New Jersey scoffed at measures like the Brady law. They said they'll have no trouble getting guns if they want them.

A Justice Department study confirmed what the prisoners said. But get this: the felons say that the thing they fear the most is not the police, not time in prison, but, you, another American who might be armed.

It's a reason many states are passing gun un-control. They're allowing citizens to carry guns with them; it's called concealed carry or right to carry. Some women say they're comforted by these laws.

Many people are horrified at the idea of concealed carry laws, and predict mayhem if all states adopt these laws.

But surprise, 36 states already have concealed carry laws, and not one reported an upsurge in gun crime.


That is just a portion - the pices actually states the statistic of legally registered weapons used in crime v/s illegal weapons, the shocking high statistics of crimes deterred by legally registered weapons.

Seeing the actually CDC's statistics and research, and the like, actualy surprised me and I am very moderate on this issue.

That's similar to what John Lott JR has been saying all along, the quote must be afew years old because the number of states with CCW is now up to 46 and I've forgotten.......how many states are there? ;)

Something must be working?

[Geezah]

Good morning.

First, RIP to the victims of the Basque terrorists in Spain -- horrid.

Secondly, RIP to the Wizards (victims of a 62-point outburst by T-Mac) and the Capitals (6-0 losers to the Sabres).

Thirdly, I just cleaned my M4....mmmm...nothing like the smell of Hoppe's in the morning.

I got my M4 on Boxing day and taken it out twice and put 300rnds through it and I've just purchased a cleaning kit but question, for some reason because of the stigma around the M16/AR15 needing cleaned all the time is it that anal?

P.S.Yeah it sucks that innocent people have to die for a bunch of selfish bastards!

[WolverineBlue]

I just like taking the M4 apart and putting it back together -- only about 150 rounds through it so far.

The Ruger .17 starts freaking out (goes from each round through the same hole to spreads about an inch apart) after only around 20 rounds...something about the barrel that I didn't quite understand when I bought it...still a sweet rifle though.

Anyone know anything about gun control laws in Spain? I have a feeling that there will be open season on the terrorists there quite soon.

[Geezah]

I just like taking the M4 apart and putting it back together -- only about 150 rounds through it so far.

The Ruger .17 starts freaking out (goes from each round through the same hole to spreads about an inch apart) after only around 20 rounds...something about the barrel that I didn't quite understand when I bought it...still a sweet rifle though.

Anyone know anything about gun control laws in Spain? I have a feeling that there will be open season on the terrorists there quite soon.

First thing I do when I buy a new rifle/handgun is strip it down and rebuild so that I have a full understanding of how it works.

You need to get rid of the .17 and get a 10/22 with a fluted target barrel, I love mine it's a total tack driver :D

[Trigger]

So if there are all these responsible gun owners in the US?
who's cluttering ER up with gunshot wounds?

The idiots who don't practice enough to put all their rounds in the 10 ring.

Practice people! Intruders should never make it to the ER! p-)

[Geezah]

http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.gif

Amazing how many WILD WEST shootouts there are.......isn't that what all the anti-gun nuts predicted????

[Pandy]

who said we couldn't carry guns on us... it's just the law that says we're not allowed too... :|

[Sixgun Symphony]

Sixgun Symphony said:


My Detective Special is .38 caliber and very easy to shoot, very accurrate. I can put all the shots in the black at twenty five yards.

http://www.canaxa.se/bilder/miltavlor/90010.gif

A medic in my unit shot with a Glock 17 from 50 meters, and all the shots were inside the 10-circle. :D

No excuses here, I need to practice more. Still, twenty five yards is a good distance for a small "belly gun" like the Detective Special. Check out this photo below.


http://world.guns.ru/handguns/colt_detective_spl.jpg

[Sixgun Symphony]

You sound like my Father-In-Law, he can't stand semi-pistols, he prefers wheel guns as he calls them and poo poos me everytime I talk about Sig :D

I got too a Colt and Ruger .357, I didn't like the Ruger too much of a hair trigger ;)


I agree with him. I have no use for the self loading pistols. I sold the one I had, a 7.62x25mm Tokorov pistol. Nice chambering, but I prefer the revolvers. I also use my own handloads and it is nice that I don't have to get down on my hands and knees to pick up the brass.

What model is the Colt revolver? Do you cast bullets & reload the brass?

You can send the Ruger back to the factory and they will restore the trigger to factory specs. I only like a hair trigger when I am using a revolver in single action mode.

[Geezah]

You sound like my Father-In-Law, he can't stand semi-pistols, he prefers wheel guns as he calls them and poo poos me everytime I talk about Sig :D

I got too a Colt and Ruger .357, I didn't like the Ruger too much of a hair trigger ;)


I agree with him. I have no use for the self loading pistols. I sold the one I had, a 7.62x25mm Tokorov pistol. Nice chambering, but I prefer the revolvers. I also use my own handloads and it is nice that I don't have to get down on my hands and knees to pick up the brass.

What model is the Colt revolver? Do you cast bullets & reload the brass?

You can send the Ruger back to the factory and they will restore the trigger to factory specs. I only like a hair trigger when I am using a revolver in single action mode.

The Colt and Ruger belonged to the in-laws nephew, I go shooting with him all the time and I've got to shoot some classics, M1 Garand, Norinco M1A, L1A1 and the list goes on! And yes he reloads on the model#s I couldn't tell you apart from they looked like Dirty Harrys :) now how ignorant does that sound :D

[Geezah]

http://userweb.eosinc.com/markmc/markmc/images/Pictures/shooting1.jpg
I wonder if this would have different if Il had their CCW???

[Sixgun Symphony]

The Colt and Ruger belonged to the in-laws nephew, I go shooting with him all the time and I've got to shoot some classics, M1 Garand, Norinco M1A, L1A1 and the list goes on! And yes he reloads on the model#s I couldn't tell you apart from they looked like Dirty Harrys :) now how ignorant does that sound :D

Dirty Harry's gun? That would be an N-frame Smith & Wesson revolver chambered in .44 Magnum.

It takes awhile, buy you gradually learn. I recommend getting a subscription to Guns&Ammo magazine (http://gunsandammomag.com/) to learn more.

My favorite revolvers are the Colts. I have seven now and will collect more. The oldest gun in my collection is an 1878 Colt Frontier double action .45 revolver and it has a low three digit serial number. :)

It is 126yrs old and I still shoot it sometimes. I can only use the real gunpowder loads which is blackpowder. For the .45 Colt cartridge, I stuff the .45 Colt brass case with enough of the Goex FFG grade blackpowder to compress it 1/4" by seating a .454 inch, 255gr cast bullet. I use my own bullet lube made from bees wax and crisco shortning. A good roll crimp and its ready.

The other Colts are all 20th century weapons and they use modern smokeless powder loads. I have the Colt 357, Colt Trooper MkIII, Colt Official Police, Colt Police Positive Special, Colt Cobra, and the Colt Detective Special.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I wonder if this would have different if Il had their CCW???

Ah yes, gangbangers at the mall. I see alot of them here at our local shopping malls. We just need to get rid of the ACLU and bring back the 1950's style policing to clean that **** up. But that ain't going to happen, so we just gotta deal with the gangs.

The real problem with Illinois is that Chicago mayor Daley is so powerful. We almost passed CCW there, but mayor Daley has alot of influence on the state government.

I think the pro-RTKBA people just needs to elect a conservative republican as governor. Then Illinois residents will have CCW.

[Sixgun Symphony]

double tap :oops:

[Tributal]

Just had to add this:

One thing that I liked about living in Arizona was that I didn't need a CCW - I could carry in the open. :D

[Haiw]

http://userweb.eosinc.com/markmc/markmc/images/Pictures/shooting1.jpg
I wonder if this would have different if Il had their CCW???
You could wonder if any shooting would have happened if neither party had a gun... :roll:

[George W. Bush]

Sorry, according to your ideology it's ok to ban a tool because a certain element of society uses it to commit crimes? It's the same as saying that cars should be banned because some old geezer runs over 7 people.

[Haiw]

Guns aren't a TOOL. Their primary use isn't to transport yourself around or to make food, it's designed to kill.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Weapons are tools.

They have their value in putting food on the table, in controlling pests, in recreation, and most of all for defense.

[Haiw]

Weapons are tools.

They have their value in putting food on the table, in controlling pests, in recreation, and most of all for defense.
Putting food on the table... well unless you've got hunting grounds around your house the only way to get food on your table with a gun is to rob a supermarket. Come on, it's not 1850 anymore.

Controlling pests. Fine, it's not what it was designed for (most guns were designed to kill other people...period), but I can see it's uses into that. However, leave that to the professionals. Get special licenses so that hunters and such can get a hunting rifle or anything like that. In recreation; well, I can say I enjoy seeing nuclear mushrooms but my government won't allow me that either. As for defense... just imagine if no one was carrying a gun. Low and behold... you wouldn't need it!

Of course you'll be bringing up the good old 'the criminals will get their guns anyway' remark, but that's only just because your country is already filled with guns! If there would have been a strict gun control in the past this wouldn't be a problem. Besides, the 'criminals that will get the guns anyway' are mostly the criminals that only use it against other criminals anyway.

[George W. Bush]

Yes, some guns were designed to be used in wars but the majority of civilian market firearms aren't suited for that purpose. No sane military would arm it's soldiers with a semi-automatic AK for example.

No firearms were designed to be used in crimes by a manufacturer. Got it? Most guns are found in the homes of law-abiding citizens.

[George W. Bush]

Remember that gun control is one step closer to Big Brother. Do it.

[Haiw]

Yes, some guns were designed to be used in wars but the majority of civilian market firearms aren't suited for that purpose. No sane military would arm it's soldiers with a semi-automatic AK for example.

No firearms were designed to be used in crimes by a manufacturer. Got it? Most guns are found in the homes of law-abiding citizens.Come on, guns are by themselves designed to kill. Even if a certain model isn't designed as a 'killing-gun', that doesn't make it any less of a capable weapon to kill someone. It's just that guns IN GENERAL are something meant to kill people. Just like cars IN GENERAL are meant to transport people. If some car manufacturer starts making cars that are meant for off-road driving it doesn't mean you can still drive on a road with it.

Oh and put off the tin-foil-hat and cut the whole big brother story...

[Sixgun Symphony]

Weapons are tools.

They have their value in putting food on the table, in controlling pests, in recreation, and most of all for defense.
Putting food on the table... well unless you've got hunting grounds around your house the only way to get food on your table with a gun is to rob a supermarket. Come on, it's not 1850 anymore.

Controlling pests. Fine, it's not what it was designed for (most guns were designed to kill other people...period), but I can see it's uses into that. However, leave that to the professionals. Get special licenses so that hunters and such can get a hunting rifle or anything like that. In recreation; well, I can say I enjoy seeing nuclear mushrooms but my government won't allow me that either. As for defense... just imagine if no one was carrying a gun. Low and behold... you wouldn't need it!

Of course you'll be bringing up the good old 'the criminals will get their guns anyway' remark, but that's only just because your country is already filled with guns! If there would have been a strict gun control in the past this wouldn't be a problem. Besides, the 'criminals that will get the guns anyway' are mostly the criminals that only use it against other criminals anyway.


Typical urbanite. Haiw thinks that meat comes from the market. He could not know that many prefer to take their meat by hunting. IMHO, people that eat meat should at least hunt once in their life so they know where their meat comes from.

I should also point out that many rural people still get alot of their meat by hunting. Of course many here would be surprised to find out how much wilderness we still have. Haiw should spend some time in Alaska or parts of the Western United States, it would open his eyes to see real wilderness.


Bring in a professional? Again, urban mindset Haiw. I am not talking about exterminating mice or cockroaches from your apartment. I am talking about coyotes, crows, buzzards, foxes, and other varmits that prey on livestock and crops. If you were a landowner, then you would have some comprehension.

It is true that to outlaw guns means that only the outlaws will have guns. They have also been known to use knives, sticks, and other deadly weapons too.

It shows how submissive these liberals are then they feel safe when it is only the criminals have have weapons. Thankfully, most of us Americans are not so weak and decadent, we Americans will fight back when assaulted.

[James]

Yes, some guns were designed to be used in wars but the majority of civilian market firearms aren't suited for that purpose. No sane military would arm it's soldiers with a semi-automatic AK for example.

No firearms were designed to be used in crimes by a manufacturer. Got it? Most guns are found in the homes of law-abiding citizens.Come on, guns are by themselves designed to kill. Even if a certain model isn't designed as a 'killing-gun', that doesn't make it any less of a capable weapon to kill someone. It's just that guns IN GENERAL are something meant to kill people. Just like cars IN GENERAL are meant to transport people. If some car manufacturer starts making cars that are meant for off-road driving it doesn't mean you can still drive on a road with it.

Oh and put off the tin-foil-hat and cut the whole big brother story...

Cars kill something like 3 times as many people in the U.S. each year as guns do.
Cars also cause a lot of pollution.

I think we need legislation controlling access to and use of automobiles.

[Haiw]

Typical urban socialist. This guy thinks that meat comes from the market. He could not know that many prefer to take their meat by hunting. IMHO, people that eat meat should at least hunt once in their life so they know where their meat comes from.

I should also point out that many rural people still get alot of their meat by hunting. Of course many here would be surprised to find out how much wilderness we still have. Haiw should spend some time in Alaska or parts of Idaho and Montana, it would open his eyes to see real wilderness.


Bring in a professional? Again, urban mindset. I am not talking about exterminating mice or cockroaches from your apartment. I am talking about coyotes, crows, buzzards, foxes, and other varmits that prey on livestock and crops. If you were a landowner, then you would have some comprehension.

Self Defense? Of course, and it is true that to outlaw guns will mean that only the outlaws will have guns. They have also been known use knives, sticks, and other deadly weapons too.

Funny how these bliss-ninnie liberals feel safer when it is only the criminals have arms. I think they must have some French in their blood to be so submissive.
Hunting for meat is only done as a hobby... not for profession, and not out of necessity.

About a the whole landowner-needs-to-kill-wild-animals... Fine, have him go trough a lot of paperwork to get a legal license for a simple shotgun or anything... As long as not every nutter can go to a shop and go buy a gun. If you can find a GOOD reason for it, like you have to protect your crops from animals, fine, put some effort into it and you can get a gun.

About the whole self-defense crap; are you paranoia? Maybe you made a lot of enemies to be so afraid, but in general, people carrying just a simple stick or a knife aren't capable of doing much damage. Only a small minority of stabbing victims dies, and even then, few people are even willing to attack someone when they have 'just a knife', or a stick or whatever.
Anyway, to sum it up. the biggest danger of people having guns around like that is that it's so easy to commit a murder. When normal people wouldn't have acces to guns, most simple criminals, robbers, burglars, etc. wouldn't be able to get a gun. Now, first, how much of those would even 'go in that profession' if they couldn't get a gun, and second, how dangerous could they be? At least a LOT less. Now if getting a gun would be hard for everyone, sure someone uberconnected could propably get it... that's why we've got the police to do something about that. And 2nd, they aren't the kind of guy your 'defending' yourself against anyway.

Oh and I don't feel safe when 'only criminals have acces to arms', I feel safe when I know not every retard can get a gun. I feel safe when I know that when I get in an argument with a guy he can't go home and get gun to 'settle it'.

[Haiw]

Cars kill something like 3 times as many people in the U.S. each year as guns do.
Cars also cause a lot of pollution.

I think we need legislation controlling access to and use of automobiles.
Hey, no one says you need 2 SUVs and a sports car per family. ;)

The difference is that pretty much all car deaths are ACCIDENTS, while all gun deaths are normally murders made possible by the availability of guns. Besides, without automobiles the entire country would propably collapse, while without private guns... you guessed it; life can go on as normal.

[RomanS]

Cars kill something like 3 times as many people in the U.S. each year as guns do.
Cars also cause a lot of pollution.

I think we need legislation controlling access to and use of automobiles.
Hey, no one says you need 2 SUVs and a sports car per family. ;)

The difference is that pretty much all car deaths are ACCIDENTS, while all gun deaths are normally murders made possible by the availability of guns. Besides, without automobiles the entire country would propably collapse, while without private guns... you guessed it; life can go on as normal.

Are you anti-gun Haiw?

[George W. Bush]

Oh and I don't feel safe when 'only criminals have acces to arms', I feel safe when I know not every retard can get a gun. I feel safe when I know that when I get in an argument with a guy he can't go home and get gun to 'settle it'.

You know what they say.. "An armed society is a polite one."

[Haiw]

Anti-gun-in-the-hands-of-the-wrong-people-yes.

Personally I kinda like the system we have here in the Netherlands. You can't just go and buy a gun. Period. If you wan't a gun next month forget it. You'll have to be a member of a shooting club for at least a year or so, and then you can start buying legal weapons with a permit. (and not every nutter can get it)

So basically, if you're really an enthusiast, or you need it as a hunter, or as a farmer it's still very well possible to get a permit or a license, it just isn't easy. So in the end it means the guys who aren't supposed to get guns don't get 'em, and the guys that really want them as a hobby can get them.

I myself would love to have guns, but if that would mean I'd have to live with every nutbuster being able to buy guns as well, not being able to own guns is a small sacrifice to make.

[spoonman]

The difference is that pretty much all car deaths are ACCIDENTS, while all gun deaths are normally murders made possible by the availability of guns. Besides, without automobiles the entire country would propably collapse, while without private guns... you guessed it; life can go on as normal.

bull****. pure and simple bull****. murders are not made possible by the avaliability of guns, you act as if this is something new. that men did not kill with their bare hands, with rocks, sticks, anything avaliable.

no, for many life would not go on as normal. how would disarming a woman who must walk the streets late at night because she works third shift in a bad part of town help anything? would a family who has suffered numerous burglaries be "back to normal" if you disarmed them?

pure and simple, banning things you do not like or feel are dangerous to society does not do anyone any good, if it did britain would be the safest place on earth.

[George W. Bush]

Tell that to the dead woman who had to wait a month to protect herself from a stalker.

[Haiw]

Tell that to the dead woman who had to wait a month to protect herself from a stalker.
There's experts for that. They're called policemen.

[James]

Cars kill something like 3 times as many people in the U.S. each year as guns do.
Cars also cause a lot of pollution.

I think we need legislation controlling access to and use of automobiles.
Hey, no one says you need 2 SUVs and a sports car per family. ;)

The difference is that pretty much all car deaths are ACCIDENTS, while all gun deaths are normally murders made possible by the availability of guns. Besides, without automobiles the entire country would propably collapse, while without private guns... you guessed it; life can go on as normal.

Haiw,

The vast majority of gunowners in America are not represented by the likes of those you have encountered in this forum. They are normal, responsible people.

All gun deaths are not normally murders. Quite a few are (about 9000 in the U.S. in 2002 - there were about 5000 murders committed by other means). Some gun deaths are suicide, some are tragic accidents, and a fair number are shootings be law enforcement officers and people who are defending themselves.

[Haiw]

The difference is that pretty much all car deaths are ACCIDENTS, while all gun deaths are normally murders made possible by the availability of guns. Besides, without automobiles the entire country would propably collapse, while without private guns... you guessed it; life can go on as normal.

bull****. pure and simple bull****. murders are not made possible by the avaliability of guns, you act as if this is something new. that men did not kill with their bare hands, with rocks, sticks, anything avaliable.

no, for many life would not go on as normal. how would disarming a woman who must walk the streets late at night because she works third shift in a bad part of town help anything? would a family who has suffered numerous burglarys be "back to normal" if you disarmed them?

pure and simple, banning things you do not like or feel are dangerous to society does not do anyone any good, if it did britain would be the safest place on earth.
Sure, murders still happen, but firearms make it possible for a LOT more people, and make it much more easier to kill! If you're no trained person with a knife, the chances that you actually kill someone when stabbing them is actually rather small...same for rocks, sticks, etc. However, when guns are easily available, every wimpy 130 lbs stock trader that goes nuts (no offense to stock traders) can go home, get a gun, and kill a person.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Haiw,

Your ignorance is showing.

Knives and cudgels are deadly weapons. The only thing they don't have is much range. But I guarantee you that a cut throat will make you just as dead as a gunshot wound.

Papers? license? That shows your collectivist mindset. No government should ever have so much power over the people. The reason why the 2nd Amendment is in our constition is so that people have a last defense against tyranny in government.

Remember that our nation was born in revolution and the framers of our constitution were radicals. They talked about overthrowing the government and they did overthrow the government before establishing our republic. They made sure that the people had the right to keep and bear arms as a last resort to protect liberty from government.

As far as criminals, they destroy themselves. Especially when good citizens are armed.

Check out these quotes,

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops..." - Noah Webster, "An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution" (1787) in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888)

"To disarm the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them..." - George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." - James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson

[George W. Bush]

So now all of a sudden a policeman is an "expert" because he has a few months worth of training? The only thing policemen are experts at is eating donuts.

[spoonman]

Tell that to the dead woman who had to wait a month to protect herself from a stalker.
There's experts for that. They're called policemen.

step out of the fantasy world. are policeman around you 24/7? do they hang out in your living room or bedroom just waiting to protect you? in america there is no legally binding statute that says the police have to protect you, if there was they could be sued everytime a crime was commited. relying on others has caused more deaths than firearms ever will.

[Haiw]

Cars kill something like 3 times as many people in the U.S. each year as guns do.
Cars also cause a lot of pollution.

I think we need legislation controlling access to and use of automobiles.
Hey, no one says you need 2 SUVs and a sports car per family. ;)

The difference is that pretty much all car deaths are ACCIDENTS, while all gun deaths are normally murders made possible by the availability of guns. Besides, without automobiles the entire country would propably collapse, while without private guns... you guessed it; life can go on as normal.

Haiw,

The vast majority of gunowners in America are not represented by the likes of those you have encountered in this forum. They are normal, responsible people.

All gun deaths are not normally murders. Quite a few are (about 9000 in the U.S. in 2002 - there were about 5000 murders committed by other means). Some gun deaths are suicide, some are tragic accidents, and a fair number are shootings be law enforcement officers and people who are defending themselves.
Hey, I'm not against law enforcement people having guns ;)

Still, a big question is, how many people needed to defend themselves against people that wouldn't be a threat if they couldn't get a gun? Second, the majority of those are still murders. If it's 'just a few thousand', then that's still a few thousand that could be greatly reduced.

[Haiw]

Arr, more fun gun debate tomorrow... :roll: Good night.

[George W. Bush]

Knives are actually more deadlier than firearms at close range. I'd rather be shot with a handgun than get cut up with a knife.

Most gun crime occurs at 7 yards or less (robbery, assault with deadly weapon, murder)

So what I'm trying to say is that banning firearms wouldn't do jack **** to crime. Look at Great Britain for example.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Still, a big question is, how many people needed to defend themselves against people that wouldn't be a threat if they couldn't get a gun? Second, the majority of those are still murders. If it's 'just a few thousand', then that's still a few thousand that could be greatly reduced.

Criminals don't always use guns. Criminals also use knives, sticks, iron bars, and other weapons. Sometimes the criminals are of a large and powerful physique that their bare hands are dangerous weapons, especially to the small and weak.

So guns are necessary and good for good citizens to have for self defense.

[Whistler]

Automatic weapons should only be held in the hands of the military.

You know Josef Goebbels used to say the exact same thing...

[Nawlins]

Knives are actually deadlier than firearms at close range.

That's what I was gonna say. You're more likely to survive a gunshot wound than a cut throat.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Knives are actually deadlier than firearms at close range.

That's what I was gonna say. You're more likely to survive a gunshot wound than a cut throat.

Depends on the caliber of the gun. If someone is using a .22, .25, or .32 caliber pistol round, then yes I concur.

[spoonman]

Knives are actually deadlier than firearms at close range.

That's what I was gonna say. You're more likely to survive a gunshot wound than a cut throat.

Depends on the caliber of the gun. If someone is using a .22, .25, or .32 caliber pistol round, then yes I concur.

truth be told it depends more on the ammunition used than caliber. a ball round in almost any common caliber (.45, 9mm, .40S&W) is not going to be as damaging (depending on where you get hit) as a cut throat. an expanding slug however, (depending on where you get hit) will usually be worse than a knife wound. you would bleed a lot more from a knife wound than most handgun wounds.

[Sixgun Symphony]

A heavy 255gr cast bullet from my .45 Colt revolver is going to do considerably more damage than something like a .32 ACP (7.65mm Browning) semi-jacketed hollowpoint bullet.

Now a small caliber SJHP bullet going at high velocity will do alot of damage. But in handguns we are talking about chamberings like .30 Mauser, .32 H&R Magnum, and 7.62mm Tokorev.

Even then, I would rather have a .45 because the small caliber hollowpoints wont get the penetration my large caliber, heavy cast bullets will get. Also, the .45 caliber bullet may already be of larger diameter than what alot of the smaller mousegun calibers will expand to.

If we are talking .22 long rifle, .25 ACP, .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, or .32 ACP... then you are better off with a knife.

[Trigger]

Haiw wrote:

Anti-gun-in-the-hands-of-the-wrong-people-yes.

Personally I kinda like the system we have here in the Netherlands. You can't just go and buy a gun. Period. If you wan't a gun next month forget it. You'll have to be a member of a shooting club for at least a year or so, and then you can start buying legal weapons with a permit. (and not every nutter can get it)

So basically, if you're really an enthusiast, or you need it as a hunter, or as a farmer it's still very well possible to get a permit or a license, it just isn't easy. So in the end it means the guys who aren't supposed to get guns don't get 'em, and the guys that really want them as a hobby can get them.

I myself would love to have guns, but if that would mean I'd have to live with every nutbuster being able to buy guns as well, not being able to own guns is a small sacrifice to make.
The wrong people? Who decides who's 'wrong'? You? Maybe blacks shouldn't have guns. Maybe Jews either. How about anyone south of some point on a map?

And what's with this constant 'every nutter can get one' crap? Are there an unusual number of 'nutters' in your neighborhood? Do you really believe there are that many 'nutters' in the U.S.?

So basically if you're a real enthusiast? I'm a real enthusiast about staying alive and making sure some criminal doesn't get too enthusiastic about hurting my loved ones.

[Geezah]

Typical urban socialist. This guy thinks that meat comes from the market. He could not know that many prefer to take their meat by hunting. IMHO, people that eat meat should at least hunt once in their life so they know where their meat comes from.

I should also point out that many rural people still get alot of their meat by hunting. Of course many here would be surprised to find out how much wilderness we still have. Haiw should spend some time in Alaska or parts of Idaho and Montana, it would open his eyes to see real wilderness.


Bring in a professional? Again, urban mindset. I am not talking about exterminating mice or cockroaches from your apartment. I am talking about coyotes, crows, buzzards, foxes, and other varmits that prey on livestock and crops. If you were a landowner, then you would have some comprehension.

Self Defense? Of course, and it is true that to outlaw guns will mean that only the outlaws will have guns. They have also been known use knives, sticks, and other deadly weapons too.

Funny how these bliss-ninnie liberals feel safer when it is only the criminals have arms. I think they must have some French in their blood to be so submissive.


Oh and I don't feel safe when 'only criminals have acces to arms', I feel safe when I know not every retard can get a gun. I feel safe when I know that when I get in an argument with a guy he can't go home and get gun to 'settle it'.

Well I know a man just like me that got hold of CS gas in the UK via Football Hooligans and I could even tell you how that man that's just like me was able to recieve it undetected!
Hell......that man that's just like me was even around people in the Kensington area that were armed on a regular basis, so pretty much any retard can arm themselves if needed in the UK, next you're going to tell me that (if you do live in the UK) you don't know anyone thats snorting coke!

[Geezah]

Tell that to the dead woman who had to wait a month to protect herself from a stalker.
There's experts for that. They're called policemen.

Experts that end up cleaing up the mess!! when will you realize that most Americans aren't prepared to put their lives or the lives of their family members in the hands of someone that cannot be on call 24/7, unfortunetly I cannot afford around the clock bodyguards!

The Police are good when there has been a crime commited but they are powerless up until that point!

[Geezah]

Knives are actually more deadlier than firearms at close range. I'd rather be shot with a handgun than get cut up with a knife.

Most gun crime occurs at 7 yards or less (robbery, assault with deadly weapon, murder)

So what I'm trying to say is that banning firearms wouldn't do jack **** to crime. Look at Great Britain for example.

Actually have a look at this,

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/melon/extreme_melon.mov

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/web_photos/bigass%20hog_300.jpgThe 505 lb Boar in the picture was taken with a single 9mm round


Extreme Shock USA, these rounds are pretty devesating and you have no worries about over penetration.
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product_info.html&setup=#AGENTID&cart_id=

[Geezah]

Knives are actually deadlier than firearms at close range.

That's what I was gonna say. You're more likely to survive a gunshot wound than a cut throat.

Wow.....maybe in the Military as they have to abide by the Geneva Convention but for the average home owner using rpefradmented ammo so it becomes shrapnel as soon as it hits it's mark means that hopefully one shot center mass and your bad guy isn't getting back up, that's why I favour Federal EFMJ and Cor-Bon Beesafe in 9mm and soon I'll be getting the Extreme Shock rounds but those are real pricey!

[Sixgun Symphony]

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/web_photos/bigass%20hog_300.jpgThe 505 lb Boar in the picture was taken with a single 9mm round


Extreme Shock USA, these rounds are pretty devesating and you have no worries about over penetration.
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product_info.html&setup=#AGENTID&cart_id=

They have several bullet designs listed on their website. I am curious as to which round they used. Their frangible bullets would make a large, but shallow wound, this translates to alot of shock and bleeding in a human target, but such a large boar will have greater mass of bone, cartrilage, and muscle mass than any human being. They must have used a their "Explosive Entry "Fang Face" Enhanced Penetration" bullet design.

The front of the bullet will expand, but it is likely a long for caliber bullet with solid back for high sectional density and penetration.

Then too, I wonder where the placed their shot. The view is from the side and I wonder if they shot it between the eyes.

[Geezah]

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/web_photos/bigass%20hog_300.jpgThe 505 lb Boar in the picture was taken with a single 9mm round


Extreme Shock USA, these rounds are pretty devesating and you have no worries about over penetration.
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product_info.html&setup=#AGENTID&cart_id=

They have several bullet designs listed on their website. I am curious as to which round they used. Their frangible bullets would make a large, but shallow wound, this translates to alot of shock and bleeding in a human target, but such a large boar will have greater mass of bone, cartrilage, and muscle mass than any human being. They must have used a their "Explosive Entry "Fang Face" Enhanced Penetration" bullet design.

The front of the bullet will expand, but it is likely a long for caliber bullet with solid back for high sectional density and penetration.

Then too, I wonder where the placed their shot. The view is from the side and I wonder if they shot it between the eyes.

It's pretty wild that it was a 9mm round that took the thing down, did you check out the prices on the ammo, but I guess you get what you pay for :D

[Sixgun Symphony]

It's pretty wild that it was a 9mm round that took the thing down, did you check out the prices on the ammo, but I guess you get what you pay for :D

I would really like to see where the shot was placed. I would also like to know the weight, the velocity, and the construction of that bullet.

I am thinking they used the penetrator round. It must be a HP in the front for expansion, but with a solid back end to the bullet for penetration. It might also be loaded very hot too. Probably comparable to SMG ammo.

It is hard to believe that a mere 9mm Parabellum could take down such a large animal. Maybe they made a brain shot on the other side of the animal in the photo?

[Geezah]

It's pretty wild that it was a 9mm round that took the thing down, did you check out the prices on the ammo, but I guess you get what you pay for :D

I would really like to see where the shot was placed. I would also like to know the weight, the velocity, and the construction of that bullet.

I am thinking they used the penetrator round. It must be a HP in the front for expansion, but with a solid back end to the bullet for penetration. It might also be loaded very hot too. Probably comparable to SMG ammo.

It is hard to believe that a mere 9mm Parabellum could take down such a large animal. Maybe they made a brain shot on the other side of the animal in the photo?

I didn't check if their ammo is +P+ or just +P, but no matter where they put the shot it's still pretty wild and a great selling point for their ammo?

[Sixgun Symphony]

I didn't check if their ammo is +P+ or just +P, but no matter where they put the shot it's still pretty wild and a great selling point for their ammo?

That it is. I am going to buy some for testing.

[Geezah]

I didn't check if their ammo is +P+ or just +P, but no matter where they put the shot it's still pretty wild and a great selling point for their ammo?

That it is. I am going to buy some for testing.

I might email them to check because I won't put +P+ through my Sigs only +P.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I might email them to check because I won't put +P+ through my Sigs only +P.

Maybe get a Browning P-35?

Of course the old Lugers were made to take the really hot submachine gun ammo. If you handload, it would be interesting to see what velocities can be safely had from one of those.

Of course when it comes to hot handloads, nothing beats my Ruger Bisley Vaquero in .45 Colt. The Ruger is very solid, I can load the .45 Colt cartridge to exceed .44 magnum velocities with larger bullets and at less pressure.

But it would not be a practical weapon for CCW. :)

[kinghk]

I might email them to check because I won't put +P+ through my Sigs only +P.

Maybe get a Browning P-35?

Of course the old Lugers were made to take the really hot submachine gun ammo. If you handload, it would be interesting to see what velocities can be safely had from one of those.


DANGER! DANGER! I will not recommend using hard ammo in a Luger. The norwegian army managed to break down quite a few of them when they used the same ammo for both submachine guns and pistols. Boxes with military submachine gun ammo is still labeled with the text "do not use in Walter P-38 and Luger P-08."

[Sixgun Symphony]

DANGER! DANGER! I will not recommend using hard ammo in a Luger. The norwegian army managed to break down quite a few of them when they used the same ammo for both submachine guns and pistols. Boxes with military submachine gun ammo is still labeled with the text "do not use in Walter P-38 and Luger P-08."


Really?

That is not the reputation they have here. I been told that much of the milsurp ammo that came with these Lugers were some really hot 9mm SMG ammo. But then my information came 2nd hand to me.

Still, these guns are getting old and one usually goes with light loads in old guns.

[Geezah]

http://userweb.eosinc.com/markmc/markmc/images/Pictures/shooting1.jpg
I wonder if this would have different if Il had their CCW???
You could wonder if any shooting would have happened if neither party had a gun... :roll:

Unfortutely....that won't ever happen until you eliminate criminals?

[Geezah]

Weapons are tools.

They have their value in putting food on the table, in controlling pests, in recreation, and most of all for defense.
Putting food on the table... well unless you've got hunting grounds around your house the only way to get food on your table with a gun is to rob a supermarket. Come on, it's not 1850 anymore.

Controlling pests. Fine, it's not what it was designed for (most guns were designed to kill other people...period), but I can see it's uses into that. However, leave that to the professionals. Get special licenses so that hunters and such can get a hunting rifle or anything like that. In recreation; well, I can say I enjoy seeing nuclear mushrooms but my government won't allow me that either. As for defense... just imagine if no one was carrying a gun. Low and behold... you wouldn't need it!

Of course you'll be bringing up the good old 'the criminals will get their guns anyway' remark, but that's only just because your country is already filled with guns! If there would have been a strict gun control in the past this wouldn't be a problem. Besides, the 'criminals that will get the guns anyway' are mostly the criminals that only use it against other criminals anyway.

I would have liked for you to tell me that when I nearly ran my car into 6 does that decided to sit in my side of the road(this was 2wks ago)? Dear over here are a problem and have a habit of jumping infront of cars, and when you have a 300lbs deer coming through the windscreen it creates a problem!

P.S.How about my Wife that phoned me on her cellphone hysterical after she nearly ran her car off the road to avoid deer!

[Sixgun Symphony]

Geezah,

Do you handload/reload? If so, do you cast your own bullets?


http://rcbs.com/images/presses.jpg


Information on handloading, reloading
(http://www.reload-nrma.com/)
RCBS (http://rcbs.com/)

Reloading Pages of M.D. Smith (http://www.reloadammo.com/)

[ibstolidude]

Besides, the 'criminals that will get the guns anyway' are mostly the criminals that only use it against other criminals anyway. not only is that a nonsensical arguement it is proven false...

Most gun crime onvolves unregistered and/or illegal weapons.

[ibstolidude]

people carrying just a simple stick or a knife aren't capable of doing much damage. Only a small minority of stabbing victims dies, more nonsensical arguements - gun shot victims have a 90+% chance of recovery/life saving if treated with in the first hour. Only a small number of gunshot victims die.


and even then, few people are even willing to attack someone when they have 'just a knife', or a stick or whatever.
Anyway, to sum it up. the biggest danger of people having guns around like that is that it's so easy to commit a murder. the biggest danger of people like you having a ***** attached is that it's so easy for you to be a rapist. Shall we have it removed?


When normal people wouldn't have acces to guns, most simple criminals, robbers, burglars, etc. wouldn't be able to get a gun. - again the facts disagree with you.. look at states now that have restrive handgun/firearms laws - the criminals remain armed. The informaiton on many of these specific states exists.


Now, first, how much of those would even 'go in that profession' if they couldn't get a gun, and second, how dangerous could they be? At least a LOT less. Objection your honor - Speculation! Considering most crimes are committed with out GUNS! Robbery, rape, arson, buglary, theft, larceny, grand theft, assualt - all are fequently commited without a firearm.

There are a myriad of excellant arguements for limitations, restrictions and controls on firearms... however I think these are based on emotion, conjecture and speculation.

Sorry I'm just going to have to disagree with you today.

[Geezah]

Geezah,

Do you handload/reload? If so, do you cast your own bullets?


http://rcbs.com/images/presses.jpg


Information on handloading, reloading
(http://www.reload-nrma.com/)
RCBS (http://rcbs.com/)

Reloading Pages of M.D. Smith (http://www.reloadammo.com/)

No....I buy Russian surplus on the 7.62x39(dirt cheap), American Eagle on .223,Gov Issue Winchester white box for plinking and Federal Expanding Full Metal Jackets on the 9mm. I don;t know if at this stage I would trust reloading as I'm still very fresh to the World of hot weapons, but who knows in the future.

I shop around for ammo and try to get the best deals possible online.

[Sixgun Symphony]

A good firearm for the handloader is the Thompson/Center Contender pistol. It is a single shot breech loader and very strong. You can also change the barrels for different calibers.

A T/C Contender pistol and a chronograph are great for experimenting with handloading and ballistitics.

[Tributal]

I didn't check if their ammo is +P+ or just +P, but no matter where they put the shot it's still pretty wild and a great selling point for their ammo?That it is. I am going to buy some for testing.I might email them to check because I won't put +P+ through my Sigs only +P.Hehe. As long as we're talking 9mm - this might sting a bit for you SIG-fans - buy a Glock 17. It'll take +P+ all day and keep on ticking. The Swedish army uses +P+ ammo in their G17's, and they haven't had any problems.

[Tributal]

In regards to statistics on gun-related deaths:

You might want to take into account that the CDC and the gun control lobby include suicides into the numbers of "violent crimes committed with firearms." I personally don't think a suicide is a violent crime - firearms just happen to be a very quick and reliable way of committing suicide (NOT ADVOCATING SUICIDE KIDS!) and if the "victim" didn't have access to firearms they would find some other way of killing themselves. Also, a large number of people in the U.S. who commit suicide with firearms are senior citizens who rather end things with some dignity and control than wasting away wearing adult diapers in some nursing home.

Also, the often mentioned concern about kids getting killed with firearms can be debunked to a certain degree (no use in denying the fact that some kids do get killed with firearms) when one realizes that when they say "kids" they refer to anyone under the age of 21. Now, think about this for a second. What age are most gang-bangers? That's right - most of them are under 21. So many of these "kids" are murderous little f*ckers themselves, who got killed "doing business." Also, once again suicides are added to this group too - and as you know there's a very real problem with teenage suicide, so this is not a gun problem but rather a problem with our society (ie - what forces kids to commit suicide, and how can we prevent them from becoming suicidal - remove the reason rather than the means!)

The number of deaths where kids where killed in real accidents are therefore much lower than the numbers cited by the CDC and the gun control lobby. Also, most of these accidents can (and should) be blamed on dumb-f*ck parents who don't store their firearms in a safe manner around kids and/or who haven't taught their kids how to act around firearms. These parents take the time to make the electric outlets and the cutlery drawers child proof, they put household chemicals in hard-to-reach places so kids can't get to them - yet they leave a handgun in the nightstand? In the immortal words of Denis Leary - "www.what-the-f*ck.com?"

Speaking of kids being safe around firearms - the NRA has a cartoon for kids called "Eddie Eagle", which can be seen in this image:

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/graphics/eddie_15th_anniversary.jpg

Now, I have yet to see any such program and/or useful information being put in place by the CDC or the gun control lobby - they rather just stress that "kids" get killed and that "guns are bad" than to teach kids how to be safe around firearms. Do it for the children...
:slap:

[TALOS]

In regards to statistics on gun-related deaths:

You might want to take into account that the CDC and the gun control lobby include suicides into the numbers of "violent crimes committed with firearms." I personally don't think a suicide is a violent crime - firearms just happen to be a very quick and reliable way of committing suicide (NOT ADVOCATING SUICIDE KIDS!) and if the "victim" didn't have access to firearms they would find some other way of killing themselves. Also, a large number of people in the U.S. who commit suicide with firearms are senior citizens who rather end things with some dignity and control than wasting away wearing adult diapers in some nursing home.

Also, the often mentioned concern about kids getting killed with firearms can be debunked to a certain degree (no use in denying the fact that some kids do get killed with firearms) when one realizes that when they say "kids" they refer to anyone under the age of 21. Now, think about this for a second. What age are most gang-bangers? That's right - most of them are under 21. So many of these "kids" are murderous little f*ckers themselves, who got killed "doing business." Also, once again suicides are added to this group too - and as you know there's a very real problem with teenage suicide, so this is not a gun problem but rather a problem with our society (ie - what forces kids to commit suicide, and how can we prevent them from becoming suicidal - remove the reason rather than the means!)

The number of deaths where kids where killed in real accidents are therefore much lower than the numbers cited by the CDC and the gun control lobby. Also, most of these accidents can (and should) be blamed on dumb-f*ck parents who don't store their firearms in a safe manner around kids and/or who haven't taught their kids how to act around firearms. These parents take the time to make the electric outlets and the cutlery drawers child proof, they put household chemicals in hard-to-reach places so kids can't get to them - yet they leave a handgun in the nightstand? In the immortal words of Denis Leary - "www.what-the-f*ck.com?"

Speaking of kids being safe around firearms - the NRA has a cartoon for kids called "Eddie Eagle", which can be seen in this image:

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/graphics/eddie_15th_anniversary.jpg

Now, I have yet to see any such program and/or useful information being put in place by the CDC or the gun control lobby - they rather just stress that "kids" get killed and that "guns are bad" than to teach kids how to be safe around firearms. Do it for the children...
:slap:
All very good points... unfortunately, reason isnt one the greatest strongpoints of anti gunners. But good points none the less

[Tributal]

In regards to statistics on gun-related deaths:All very good points... unfortunately, reason isnt one the greatest strongpoints of anti gunners. But good points none the lessThank you. And yes, I know but I figured I'd at least put the info out there for those who haven't made up their minds or in other ways feel that they need to know more before doing so.

[Jackel]

It sounds like Geeza lost his man-hood. Here, this web sight may help....Barney.Com!!!!!!!!

[Geezah]

It sounds like Geeza lost his man-hood. Here, this web sight may help....Barney.Com!!!!!!!!

Huh.......I've lost my man hood because???

[cut]

It sounds like Geeza lost his man-hood. Here, this web sight may help....Barney.Com!!!!!!!!

Huh.......I've lost my man hood because???

he thinks you support John Kerry? :lol:

[Geezah]

It sounds like Geeza lost his man-hood. Here, this web sight may help....Barney.Com!!!!!!!!

Huh.......I've lost my man hood because???

he thinks you support John Kerry? :lol:

Ohhh......maybe I need to change the pic?

[Truthsayer]

Cars kill something like 3 times as many people in the U.S. each year as guns do.
Cars also cause a lot of pollution.

I think we need legislation controlling access to and use of automobiles.


Don't you already have laws saying that you need a drivinglicense?

[Geezah]

Cars kill something like 3 times as many people in the U.S. each year as guns do.
Cars also cause a lot of pollution.

I think we need legislation controlling access to and use of automobiles.


Don't you already have laws saying that you need a drivinglicense?

And again somehow this doesn't work, you have people that have DUIs and still drive even with their licences suspended?

[Truthsayer]

Yes, and your point is?

Then they are commiting a crime and can go to jail. (In the case of an DUI for example.)

Seems silly that it is easier [time AND money] to assembly enough guns to kill a busload of people then acctually taking a driving license for the bus and driving it into the river...

[Hav218]

I read this somewhere, but look at the number of burglurys in the UK, and in the US. In the US, its significantly lower than in the UK. Why? Because criminals in the UK know that the only thing a homeowner would be coming at them with is a knife. In the US, a criminal takes into account that it is very likley that the home owner has a gun. Would you want to have someone come in your house while you are defenseless?

[ShadowNeo]

In the US, if you have a gun, its likely that your would be burglar would also have a gun.

In the UK, if you don't have a gun, its 99.9% likely that your average burglar doesn't have one either.

You aren't defenceless just because you don't have a gun, I think its stupid to put so much reliance on it.

[Hav218]

You may feel that way, and if you dont support what this country was founded upon, I assume you dont support freedom of speech? It is better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

[Geezah]

In the US, if you have a gun, its likely that your would be burglar would also have a gun..

So this brings it down to the situation being equal and gives the occupant more reason to shoot! and you know this........why?


In the UK, if you don't have a gun, its 99.9% likely that your average burglar doesn't have one either.

And again as a qualified burglar you know.......why?


You aren't defenceless just because you don't have a gun, I think its stupid to put so much reliance on it.

As is relying on the Police to look after you 24/7!

[Hav218]

You aren't defenceless just because you don't have a gun, I think its stupid to put so much reliance on it.

As is relying on the Police to look after you 24/7!

I dont think anyone could have said it any better.

[spoonman]

Cars kill something like 3 times as many people in the U.S. each year as guns do.
Cars also cause a lot of pollution.

I think we need legislation controlling access to and use of automobiles.


Don't you already have laws saying that you need a drivinglicense?

driving is not in the bill of rights.

[ShadowNeo]

I don't exactly see where your trying to go with the "you know this...why?" extensions, perhaps you could be a little more clear.


As is relying on the Police to look after you 24/7!

I don't need to rely on the Police to protect me in my home. I have these wonderful inventions called locks on my doors, they seem to be pretty good at keeping burglars out.

Also, find me a burglar thats stupid or determined enough to smash through double glazing in full view of the rest of the street.

If a burglar did somehow enter my home, I wouldn't need to rely on a gun to defend myself, as I have posted previously in another topic.

[Saranof]

Again, this shows the mindset of the herd like mentality of socialists. They expect a government to do everything for them. They of course will be totally unprepared if it is the government and its enforcers that are the criminals.

If this person lives in a 'safe' neighborhood, this it is likely to be very beourgeois. Again, crime has alot more to do with wealth and other social economic factors than with the availability of firearms.

Gosh, I thought that that metality of scoialists is to give the individual the capability to develoup himself. Silly me. :roll:
Anyway..
Was the beourgeois society in 1800 th century england safe?
Is the us safe? Again, you contradict yourselves, because if guns do make a place safer, why isn't the us the safest nation in the world?
I sweden, our crime rate is quite low, I fell safe, and I don't have an assult rifle at home.

[Geezah]

In the US, if you have a gun, its likely that your would be burglar would also have a gun..

So this brings it down to the situation being equal and gives the occupant more reason to shoot! and you know this........why?


In the UK, if you don't have a gun, its 99.9% likely that your average burglar doesn't have one either.

And again as a qualified burglar you know.......why?


You aren't defenceless just because you don't have a gun, I think its stupid to put so much reliance on it.

As is relying on the Police to look after you 24/7!


I don't exactly see where your trying to go with the "you know this...why?" extensions, perhaps you could be a little more clear.


As is relying on the Police to look after you 24/7!

I don't need to rely on the Police to protect me in my home. I have these wonderful inventions called locks on my doors, they seem to be pretty good at keeping burglars out.

Also, find me a burglar thats stupid or determined enough to smash through double glazing in full view of the rest of the street.

If a burglar did somehow enter my home, I wouldn't need to rely on a gun to defend myself, as I have posted previously in another topic.

You stated that "In the US, if you have a gun, its likely that your would be burglar would also have a gun" how do you know this?

Again how do you know this? "In the UK, if you don't have a gun, its 99.9% likely that your average burglar doesn't have one either"

I'm glad that *you* do not rely on the Police as they are strong supporters of calling of 999(as they do not support self defence) , also I'm glad that you feel very safe when locked inside your home because you have things called locks. It's a shame the rest of the Country isn't aware of this invention?

I now understand why there is such a problem with crime in the UK, it's because you own the rights to this new invention called locks. rofl

[ShadowNeo]

You stated that "In the US, if you have a gun, its likely that your would be burglar would also have a gun" how do you know this?

Logic would dictate that in a country where virtually anyone can aquire a gun with fair ease, it is likely that a would-be burglar would use one, bearing the knowledge that they would otherwise be at risk from the occupants of the target house, for exactly the same reason.


In the UK, if you don't have a gun, its 99.9% likely that your average burglar doesn't have one either

From my experiences with looking at statistics and accounts of burglary, I have yet to see one incident in which the burglar was armed with a gun. Also, common logic would dictate that in a country where firearms are restricted, the chances of a burglar having access to said firearm will be restricted also, thus heavily reducing the likelyhood of them using a weapon.

It is also logical to think that burglars would know that the occupants of the property they were targetting were not armed, due to the current firearms law. If they are aware of no apparent threat of an armed occupant, it is logical to assume they will not arm themselves, which would also be fairly hard given what I have previously stated.


I now understand why there is such a problem with crime in the UK, it's because you own the rights to this new invention called locks.

People with common sense who feel they may be at risk from burglars, will take the necessary precautions to protect their homes. Remembering to lock doors, windows, installing suitable glass, the people who don't follow simple measures are frankly, asking to be burgled.

[Geezah]

You stated that "In the US, if you have a gun, its likely that your would be burglar would also have a gun" how do you know this?

Logic would dictate that in a country where virtually anyone can aquire a gun with fair ease, it is likely that a would-be burglar would use one, bearing the knowledge that they would otherwise be at risk from the occupants of the target house, for exactly the same reason.

Wow....virtually anyone can get a gun here, now are you talking legally or illegally?



In the UK, if you don't have a gun, its 99.9% likely that your average burglar doesn't have one either

From my experiences with looking at statistics and accounts of burglary, I have yet to see one incident in which the burglar was armed with a gun. Also, common logic would dictate that in a country where firearms are restricted, the chances of a burglar having access to said firearm will be restricted also, thus heavily reducing the likelyhood of them using a weapon.

Are we talking about the same Country here? you are in the United Kingdom...right?
seeing as you're using common logic to work out that the only people that are armed over there are the Police, I take it that the criminals that are giving the Police such a hard time over there are using pointed sticks? rofl


It is also logical to think that burglars would know that the occupants of the property they were targetting were not armed, due to the current firearms law. If they are aware of no apparent threat of an armed occupant, it is logical to assume they will not arm themselves, which would also be fairly hard given what I have previously stated..

What you previously stated doesn't make any sense because of all the gun crime that I read about daily in the Sun, BBC World News and the Telegraph but hell you're using logic so what do they know, the only people that the gun laws affect are the law abiding citizen because criminals have a habit of not obeying the law?



I now understand why there is such a problem with crime in the UK, it's because you own the rights to this new invention called locks.

People with common sense who feel they may be at risk from burglars, will take the necessary precautions to protect their homes. Remembering to lock doors, windows, installing suitable glass, the people who don't follow simple measures are frankly, asking to be burgled.

People(over here) with common sense *are* taking the necessary precautions to protect their homes, it's called firearms seeing as for some reason this thing called locks doesn't work in all cases! rofl

[Geezah]

Shadowneo, just in case you missed this,


With regards to the ongoing argument over burglars, I would like to hear from anyone here was experience of actually dealing with burglars on a regular basis. I served on a specialist burglary unit and even I would not dare make the sweeping, ill-informed generalisations and speculations I have read here from others. Every burglar is different. Some will fight and some will flee. You cannot make generalisations about things you know nothing about. It depends on the individual burglar and is not dictated by what someone on an internet forum says.

Finally, with regards to the comments about British police officers needing guns. As a national rule, British police officers do not need firearms to carry out their duties. If anything, what is needed is more Armed Response Vehicles with officers trained to a very high standard, especially in the areas that have high levels of gun crime. This is the current national response that is being implemented. As little as four years ago, my force maintained only three ARVs for the whole county. I won't say exactly how many we have now, but it has now passed double figures.

Replicas aside, the main source of firearms into the UK is from Europe, the Balkans to be exact. At a recent firearms amnesty in my city, we had everything from Polish, Romanian and Soviet AK's and PPSH 43's to a huge quantity of Makarov and Tokerov handguns being turned in. I was involved in the amnesty and saw these weapons first hand Subsequent checks on these revealed that nearly all had come from the Balkans.

A little "final thought" to consider. In my force, we now have confirmed, factual intelligence reports that there are several Russian belt-fed general purpose machine guns in the possession of several inner city gangs on my area. These are forcing us to completely review our tactics, as we have nothing that can match those weapons.

where is it that you live?

[TALOS]

[quote]Also, common logic would dictate that in a country where firearms are restricted, the chances of a burglar having access to said firearm will be restricted also, thus heavily reducing the likelyhood of them using a weapon.

Unfortunately that just isnt true, restricting firearms only works for LAW ABIDING individuals. People who commit crimes could truly care less if the weapon is restricted. In Canada, the new laws make gun ownership frustrating at best, and yet there are known to be 10 times the amount of the actual registered weapons in this country


It is also logical to think that burglars would know that the occupants of the property they were targetting were not armed, due to the current firearms law. If they are aware of no apparent threat of an armed occupant, it is logical to assume they will not arm themselves, which would also be fairly hard given what I have previously stated.

You keep saying logical, ever since when is logic a part of crime?
It may seem logical to you, but that is all relative isnt it, it may seem illogical to someone else. Again, criminals do not look for houses they feel will be defended, even you acknowledge they feel safer knowing the people inside arent armed. The FACTS as reported of the incidents are that they terrorize the victims in the homes who cant fight back.(this is Canada that I am referring to)



People with common sense who feel they may be at risk from burglars, will take the necessary precautions to protect their homes. Remembering to lock doors, windows, installing suitable glass, the people who don't follow simple measures are frankly, asking to be burgled.
Although locks and better windows truly decrease the chance of someone entering your home, the belief that it would stop the possibility is somewhat naive. Besides, not all people can afford nice expensive tough windows or alarms, and deadbolts wont stop many burglars.
If you are so Macho as to not need police assistance, good for you, the police are employed for a reason and I will call them when I feel my family is at risk.

[ShadowNeo]

Wow....virtually anyone can get a gun here, now are you talking legally or illegally?

From what I have seen legally it has been quite easy for people to, illegaly, it is easier to get hold of a firearm apparently than it is in the UK - by a longshot.


where is it that you live?

Aberdeen, Scotland.

Gun crime in this city? From my experience being here for over 13 years - nul. Burglaries? I have experienced 3, in a total period of 8 years in the house I currently live in. 2 occasions, the burglars were scared off by neighbors, unable to gain access to the house.

The third occassion I caught the burglar trying to enter, tackled him, held him against the ground and issued a stark warning. Not a single burglary since. To add to this, there have been no succesful burglaries in my neighborhood at all.

Gun crime in the UK is not as widespread as you may think, and the majority is isolated to specific cities with specific problems.

[ShadowNeo]

If you are so Macho as to not need police assistance, good for you, the police are employed for a reason and I will call them when I feel my family is at risk.

I didn't say I was macho, simply proving a point to Geezah that although we don't have guns, we don't sit in our homes scared, with all our hope placed with the police.


The FACTS as reported of the incidents are that they terrorize the victims in the homes who cant fight back.(this is Canada that I am referring to)

Facts about reported UK incidents would state otherwise. I guess its a case of different countries, different attitudes.

[Geezah]

Wow....virtually anyone can get a gun here, now are you talking legally or illegally?

From what I have seen legally it has been quite easy for people to, illegaly, it is easier to get hold of a firearm apparently than it is in the UK - by a longshot..

From what you have seen.......not from what you have experienced, I have expereinced purchasing firearms and it is not as easy as you have seen. Now will you listen to the voice of experience?


where is it that you live?


[Aberdeen, Scotland.

Gun crime in this city? From my experience being here for over 13 years - nul. Burglaries? I have experienced 3, in a total period of 8 years in the house I currently live in. 2 occasions, the burglars were scared off by neighbors, unable to gain access to the house.

The third occassion I caught the burglar trying to enter, tackled him, held him against the ground and issued a stark warning. Not a single burglary since. To add to this, there have been no succesful burglaries in my neighborhood at all.

Gun crime in the UK is not as widespread as you may think, and the majority is isolated to specific cities with specific problems.

You have had 3 burglaries?......and you think that's acceptable? now me being armed have, this far(touch wood) experienced *0*, but it might not be so much the fact I have firearms(as I don't advertise) but the big
#%@!off Rotts we have :lol: Now I'm sure if you detained him at gunpoint and waited for the Police to turn up wouldn't that send a bigger message than a stark warning to the criminal element that wants to break into your house?

Gun crime is in the UK period, CX20 is a Policeman from the UK and he has also given his account of the growing trend over there, seein gas I'm from the UK I can also say I agree with him!

[ShadowNeo]

You have had 3 burglaries?......and you think that's acceptable? now me being armed have, this far(touch wood) experienced *0*, but it might not be so much the fact I have firearms(as I don't advertise) but the big
#%@!off Rotts we have Now I'm sure if you detained him at gunpoint and waited for the Police to turn up wouldn't that send a bigger message than a stark warning to the criminal element that wants to break into your house?

Gun crime is in the UK period, CX20 is a Policeman from the UK and he has also given his account of the growing trend over there, seein gas I'm from the UK I can also say I agree with him!

Thats 3 attempted burglaries, not 3 succesful burglaries. Don't think i'm naive as to not think there is not gun crime in the UK, I am aware that it very much is. I still do not believe that that holds a case for legalising firearms for self defence, the way I see it, there is too wide a scope for misuse, and it would simply aggrevate problems.


From what you have seen.......not from what you have experienced, I have expereinced purchasing firearms and it is not as easy as you have seen. Now will you listen to the voice of experience?

You yourself seem to gain your knowledge of the UK situation through newspapers. Newspapers are simply carriers of information, as are the sources I have read to give me the view I hold. I gather that you are from the UK, but do you live here now, in the current situation? I do, will you listen to my voice of experience?

[Geezah]

You have had 3 burglaries?......and you think that's acceptable? now me being armed have, this far(touch wood) experienced *0*, but it might not be so much the fact I have firearms(as I don't advertise) but the big
#%@!off Rotts we have Now I'm sure if you detained him at gunpoint and waited for the Police to turn up wouldn't that send a bigger message than a stark warning to the criminal element that wants to break into your house?

Gun crime is in the UK period, CX20 is a Policeman from the UK and he has also given his account of the growing trend over there, seein gas I'm from the UK I can also say I agree with him!

Thats 3 attempted burglaries, not 3 succesful burglaries. Don't think i'm naive as to not think there is not gun crime in the UK, I am aware that it very much is. I still do not believe that that holds a case for legalising firearms for self defence, the way I see it, there is too wide a scope for misuse, and it would simply aggrevate problems.


From what you have seen.......not from what you have experienced, I have expereinced purchasing firearms and it is not as easy as you have seen. Now will you listen to the voice of experience?

You yourself seem to gain your knowledge of the UK situation through newspapers. Newspapers are simply carriers of information, as are the sources I have read to give me the view I hold. I gather that you are from the UK, but do you live here now, in the current situation? I do, will you listen to my voice of experience?

Not to burst your bubble mate!, but if you look down by the vote for Kerry pic, you will see where it says "British BY Birth, English By The Grace Of God" I was born in West Middlesex Hospital May 1970, grew up in West London and moved over here Oct 96, my Mother lives in Cambridge and my Father resides in Hamburg, Germany and travels back and forth from London all the time. So as far as experience goes I would say I'm leaps and bounds ahead of you?
Something else I will add since moving here I have trried to get back atleast once a year and as far as things getting better I would say quite the opposite.

[ShadowNeo]

moved over here Oct 96

So you don't have actual experience of living here for 8 years, as I said, the current situation? As far as that goes mate, your leaps and bounds seem to be in the opposite direction.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Geezah,

I love that image on your sigline.

http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/common/kicks/kerry_frenchhappy.gif

[Geezah]

moved over here Oct 96

So you don't have actual experience of living here for 8 years, as I said, the current situation? As far as that goes mate, your leaps and bounds seem to be in the opposite direction.

Amazing, so I've been out of the Country for 8yrs and suddenly things are clearing up, so..I take it there's no longer a problem with drugs, booze, petty crime and so on, amazing you choose to preach to me about the US but my "experience" counts for nothing because you want to downplay that now!

When you stop going around in a circles comeback and maybe we could have a serious discussion about the subject at hand!

[Geezah]

Geezah,

I love that image on your sigline.

http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/common/kicks/kerry_frenchhappy.gif

Here's the link for more,
http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/dacha/index.html

Enjoy ;)

[ShadowNeo]

Amazing, so I've been out of the Country for 8yrs and suddenly things are clearing up, so..I take it there's no longer a problem with drugs, booze, petty crime and so on, amazing you choose to preach to me about the US but my "experience" counts for nothing because you want to downplay that now!

When you stop going around in a circles comeback and maybe we could have a serious discussion about the subject at hand!

:roll: . Look back to the first post I made and you'll see the direction that I am coming from in this discussion. Summary for ya if you've somehow missed it:

1) I am against the legalisation of firearms for self defence.
2) I don't think a firearm is required for someone to defend their home, given the current situation, in the UK.
3) I strongly believe that there is too much of an opportunity for guns to be misused if they were legalised, even moreso than currently.

Sure I admit that there is gun crime in the UK, and that in certain areas it has grown, but is not a spiralling out of control as much as you seem to think. The fact that you are not experiencing the current situation is something I will play on and have a right to, as it is supporting my argument.

[Geezah]

Amazing, so I've been out of the Country for 8yrs and suddenly things are clearing up, so..I take it there's no longer a problem with drugs, booze, petty crime and so on, amazing you choose to preach to me about the US but my "experience" counts for nothing because you want to downplay that now!

When you stop going around in a circles comeback and maybe we could have a serious discussion about the subject at hand!

:roll: . Look back to the first post I made and you'll see the direction that I am coming from in this discussion. Summary for ya if you've somehow missed it:

1) I am against the legalisation of firearms for self defence.
2) I don't think a firearm is required for someone to defend their home, given the current situation, in the UK.
3) I strongly believe that there is too much of an opportunity for guns to be misused if they were legalised, even moreso than currently.

Sure I admit that there is gun crime in the UK, and that in certain areas it has grown, but is not a spiralling out of control as much as you seem to think. The fact that you are not experiencing the current situation is something I will play on and have a right to, as it is supporting my argument.

1, Ok and I'm not because stats prove it works and with close to 80 millions legal gun owners over here I have yet to see theWild West scenes that all the antis talk about?!

2, I think owning firearms legelly in the UK would have a much greater affect than you think but again this is coming from the voice of experience and you're coming from? Maybe if you stop thinking about yourself for a minute and looked towards other sthat haven't been as lucky as you what do you think they would say?

3, You(your opion, and we're all entitled to our own) believe that firearms would be misused if legalised, here I feel I can not dispute this because I guess it would be similiar to the alcohol abuse over there and the fact that there is no control in society in the UK!

For you to dismise my experiences because you have nothing to back up your lack of experience does not convince me that the UK is now back on the straight and narrow! Why if the UK is not that bad the prisons are becoming overcrowed and voilent crime is on the increase?

It would be much better if you could provide numbers/stats to back up your arguement!

[ShadowNeo]

Wait a minute here, erm, what experience is it exactly that you have that I am dismissing? The only experience I see you have is with the US really, apparently you have applied for and own firearms there. I haven't dismissed this? If you are referring to the ease of procurement of weapons in the US, I have seen and heard otherwise. The fact that you seem to trumpet the US system as being fine and dandy is a bit hard to stomach.

And where exactly are you getting the idea that im saying the UK is on the straight and narrow? We have problems here with crime, just as the US does, Spain does, Japan does, hell everyone does. You have accused me of trying to hinder a serious discussion of the matter at hand but now your shifting the focus even further away, you seem to be taking out the problems book and pointing out everything thats slightly wrong in the UK, I could do just same with the US, but that isn't what we are discussing, is it?

[IsdatU]

ShadowNeo,

Gun control does not control crime. Crime is just the excuse that governments have for gun control.

[ShadowNeo]

Have a read up on why the gun ban was implemented in the UK. What happened is good enough justification for me.

[IsdatU]

Have a read up on why the gun ban was implemented in the UK. What happened is good enough justification for me.

The ban does nothing to disarm criminals and terrorists. Anyone who really wants one can get a weapon.

The ban can only stop the law abiding population from acquiring firearms.

[NcDeuce]

Crime control
not
Gun control

:fork:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Just a reminder to our American kin, its just repeating handguns and semi-auto rifles over .22 that are banned with some restrictions on repeating shotguns, no outright ban on guns, plus the Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man have not introduced a ban on handguns.

[Geezah]

Wait a minute here, erm, what experience is it exactly that you have that I am dismissing? The only experience I see you have is with the US really, apparently you have applied for and own firearms there. I haven't dismissed this? If you are referring to the ease of procurement of weapons in the US, I have seen and heard otherwise. The fact that you seem to trumpet the US system as being fine and dandy is a bit hard to stomach.

You only see me as having experience with the US? ok yes I'm a responsible gun owner and have procured them legally 4 through gunshops and 2 through private sale(which is legal here, and I aquired them from a guy at work, he was an Ex Marine that got married), if you see the people in the uK as not being responsible for private gun ownership please don't try and paint everyone with the same brush.

You keep on talking about the ease at which firearms can be got hold off? please share what you've heard and seen?
As far as the US being far and dandy not once did I say it was crime free but Concealed Carry does allot to help an already bad situation, almost like an Equalizer. "An Armed Society Makes For A Polite One" and the funny thing is this works.

In the 2yrs Michagan has had it's concealed carry their crime rate has dropped where as Ohio who will have their CCW April 8th, the crime rate here has risen 2%, why is that?

If you want a source for some good(very pro CCW) check out the link, I'm going home ;)

http://www.ofcc.net/

[Geezah]

Have a read up on why the gun ban was implemented in the UK. What happened is good enough justification for me.

Dunblane and Hungerford, you need to read over all the posts on this subject, now those were terrible situatiuons and should never have happened but as everyone is saying, a total ban on guns has done nothing to stem crime!

[Geezah]

Man shot to death in Canton

Woman calls 911 to report acquaintance attempting to break into apartment. Officers say her daughter fired gun at intruder

By Kymberli Hagelberg

Beacon Journal staff writer


CANTON - The first time Carolyn Warren called police, she wanted to be rescued from a man she said was trying to break in her door.

Three minutes later, she called back to say the man was in her apartment, but she didn't need to be rescued anymore.

The man was shot dead.

Kenneth G. Riggs, 38, died about 12:30 a.m. Thursday of a gunshot wound to the head. He was shot inside Warren's apartment on Mahoning Road Northeast, less than a block from his home.

Canton Police Lt. Tom Thomas said the two women in the apartment knew Riggs, but he declined to describe their relationship. Police say the shooter is a 31-year-old woman, who Thomas said was identified in the 911 call as Warren's daughter.

The mother apparently made the calls and the daughter allegedly fired a .22 rifle at Riggs twice after he forced his way into the apartment.

Police did not arrest the woman. Thomas said information from the shooting investigation will be turned over to the Stark County prosecutor.

A telephone number listed for Warren was out of order Thursday.

Riggs, who lived in the 2600 block of Mahoning Road Northeast, had a history of arrests in Stark County that stretched back to the late 1980s. Court records include a one-year prison sentence for illegal possession of a firearm and using a weapon while intoxicated. The records also list multiple arrests on charges of assault, aggravated burglary, menacing, drug abuse and violating a protection order.

A neighbor reached late Thursday afternoon said he was shocked to learn that the sirens that roared down his block hours earlier were connected to Riggs' death.

``I thought he was a nice guy,'' Michael Merinar said. ``He's been in the downstairs apartment for six or seven months.

``I knew he'd been in and out of jail, you could tell he had some problems with aggression. But I'm disabled, and he was always around to help carry things upstairs. When his kids were here on the weekends, he'd make sure they'd check to see if I needed anything.''

Merinar, who has lived in his Canton apartment for five years, said Riggs' only shortcoming as a neighbor was the guests who would come and go at odd hours, and the occasional loud arguments with a girlfriend.

``I think that was her house where they found him,'' Merinar said. ``I met her a few times. I could hear them screaming and hollering, but everyone does that sometimes.''

In the last few weeks, Merinar said Riggs wasn't doing much yelling at anyone because surgery to his vertebrae had strained his vocal cords.

``It changed him,'' Merinar said. ``He had a big boisterous voice before. They told him it would heal, but it was still raspy.''

Riggs was ****ounced dead at the Stark County Coroner's Office at 3:30 a.m. An autopsy had not yet been scheduled late Thursday.


http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/2004/03/12/news/local/8167737.htm

[IsdatU]

plus the Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man have not introduced a ban on handguns.

So lets compare the crime rate of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man to that of London....

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

plus the Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man have not introduced a ban on handguns.

So lets compare the crime rate of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man to that of London....
Sure but take into account that crime is always fairly low on the islands even the ones without handguns, and remember you cannot use handguns to defend yourself anywhere in the UK apart from Northern Ireland under certain circumstances but I would need that confirmed by a forum member from NI. You never were allowed concealed carry or the right to use a firearm as defence in the UK.

[Geezah]

plus the Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man have not introduced a ban on handguns.

So lets compare the crime rate of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man to that of London....

That would be near impossible as the crime rate of London exceeds New Yorks?

[Tributal]

Though the storm seems to have subsided a bit I would like to add something to the burglar-discussion:

On average burglary is a crime of cowards. Burglars usually try to target empty houses where they can have their pick on what to take without having to deal with any opposing force. Bringing up whether or not you need a firearm to deal with burglars is therefore not going to prove anything. Get a pair of Rotweilers and you will be much less likely to become the victim of a burglar.

Now, there's another thing out there called home invasion, which Geezah has made reference to once or twice. A home invasion is basically a burglary with the difference that the criminal is prepared to do whatever it takes to get into the house and take what he wants - regardless of if there's any occupants in the house at the time. A criminal conducting a home invasion is also likely to be violent against any occupant he encounters. Therefore a firearm is a good thing to have to protect oneself against such an intruder.

[Nawlins]

Have a large dog and a weapon in case the f*cker decides to shoot the dog.

[Durandal]

Just a reminder to our American kin, its just repeating handguns and semi-auto rifles over .22 that are banned with some restrictions on repeating shotguns, no outright ban on guns, plus the Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man have not introduced a ban on handguns.

To our British kin...

.22 are plinkers for kids and Olympic shooters.

If I cannot legally go, to a range, public or private, taking with me a Remington 700 with a Leupold scope and Harris Bipod, shoot 50 rounds during the course day, practice some practical pistol with the Beretta 92, and then go home...well...

Its a gun ban.

You know, the Japanese do not have a gun ban either...

Sorry, I chose to sit this conversation out...but I had to reply to this one...

;)

[Geezah]

After 70 peaceful years, Ft. Wayne media declares war on CHL-holders


Nearly 14,000 Allen County residents had permits for handguns as of last year.

You might be surprised at who's licensed to pack heat in Allen County.

Late last year, at least 13,972 county residents -- including four times as many men as women -- had permits to carry handguns. While fairly consistent with previous years, the number of permits can fluctuate daily as new ones are issued, existing ones expire and some are recalled.

Across the state, there were about 311,000 permit holders in 2003, according to the Indiana State Police. That's about 51 permits for every 1,000 Hoosiers, compared with Allen County's rate of about 41 for every 1,000 residents.

Among those you might recognize on the public list of permit holders are:


The Rev. Ternae Jordan Sr., pastor of Greater Progressive Baptist Church and founder of Stop the Violence, an organization devoted to reducing youth violence.


Tracy Warner, editor of The Journal-Gazette's editorial page, which has traditionally supported calls for tighter controls on guns and opposed making it easier to carry the weapons.

OFCC note: One positive thing about public records for CHLs: you know who the hypocrites are. After reading Warner's March 14 editorial IN the Ft. Wayne Journal-Gazette, entitled "Up In Arms", there are simply no words for this Brady Bunch-quoting hypocrite, who must think that only the "enlightened" deserve the right to bear arms for self-defense. After being "outed" by his competitor, Warner wrote this explanation for why he has a CHL, but why he still supports measures to take guns away from his readers.


Ministers, millionaires and newspaper editors are not the only ones who have the permits, however. That's why The News-Sentinel decided to scour the Indiana database of license holders. The database doesn't list occupations, but among the local names recognizable are those of teachers, lawyers, school bus drivers, politicians, real estate developers, builders, nightclub owners, bartenders, tailors, attorneys and a radio talk-show host.

While those on the list of permit holders would be screened for weapons if they visited the Allen County Courthouse, judges and court officers don't need permits to carry a weapon. Retired police officers can get a lifetime permit to carry a handgun.

The database does identify license holders by name, address, height, weight, date of birth and color of eyes and hair. Using that information, a computerized analysis of the list produced a description of the average permit holder.

The average Allen County resident with a gun permit -- who may not actually carry a gun -- is a middle-aged white male between 41 and 50. He's short -- 5 feet to 5 feet, 6 inches -- and overweight -- 190 pounds to 200 pounds. He has brown hair and eyes, and lives in the 46809 ZIP code on the city's southwest corner. When he votes in primary elections, he casts a Republican ballot.

You have to be at least 18 to get an Indiana gun permit, but you have to be 21 to buy the pistol it allows you to carry. The database shows 51 of the nearly 14,000 license holders are under 20. No effort is under way to change the age requirements.

Ohio joins Indiana next month as one of 46 states that allow citizens to carry handguns; Illinois is one of four states where carrying a concealed handgun is not permitted.

Reasons why

So why do people get permits? They need one to legally carry a handgun while away from home or business. No permit is required for rifles or shotguns.

Jordan didn't return phone calls seeking comment. Warner said he obtained his about four years ago after he began receiving death threats, including one that had "a disturbing reference to my family and a description and the location of my house. I wanted to have an option."

Warner wrote in an article in Sunday's Journal Gazette that having a gun permit is gun control because applicants are screened and fingerprinted.

State Rep. Robert Alderman, R-Fort Wayne, said, "I was a deputy sheriff for 20 years, and a lot of that time I worked warrants and fugitives. I sent a lot of people to jail, and some of those people tend to remember you. I've been threatened by some of them, and one might decide to make good on his threats some day. It's just a matter of protection."

Dave Macy, host of a morning talk show on WGL, 1250-AM, said he got his first permit when he worked early mornings at a radio station in Nashville, Tenn. The station, he said, was in a "pretty seedy area of town," one where "it was dangerous to walk from your car to the front door at 2:30 in the morning."

Macy said he's had two or three instances "where I let my gun do the talking," including one a few months after he received his first permit.

As he arrived at work, two men jumped from behind a trash container and confronted him. "I showed my gun, and that was it," he recalled.

Allen County Commissioner Marla Irving, who was single at the time, said she bought a gun after she found a window peeper outside her home in the late 1970s. After she married, her husband Jerry told her she should get a permit to carry the weapon.

Irving said her husband and son are avid hunters and skeet shooters and said all the guns in their home are kept in a locked, walk-in vault.

A 44-year-old saleswoman who has a .38-caliber snub-nosed revolver with her wherever she goes has never used her gun, either. But she might not be able to say that if she'd owned one on a July night 24 years ago.

"I was raped," the woman said. "Jumped from behind, forced back into my car and raped. I didn't have a gun then, but I do now. That will never happen to me again." Her name is not being used because she is the victim of a *** crime.

Lutheran Social Services Executive Director Stan Veit spent 17 years in positions with the Indiana Department of Corrections that required him to carry a gun. "It just carried over from that," Veit said. "I had more use for one back in the days I was dealing with all the bad guys in town."

Efforts to reach other notable gun permit holders (see list on Page 3A) were unsuccessful.

Fort Wayne Police Chief Rusty York and Allen County Prosecutor Karen Richards said people who have permits and carry their weapons legally aren't usually a major concern for law enforcement.

"You're entitled (to carry a gun) if you meet the criteria," Richards said. "I'm a lot less concerned about the permit holders than I am about the people who carry a gun without one. The people with the permits are the ones following the law."

Variations from the average gun permit holder

* There's one man in Allen County with a permit who stands less than 5 feet and weighs less than 100 pounds. Forty-four women are shorter than 4 feet, 6 inches, and 20 women weigh less than 100 pounds.

* The tallest men are between 6 feet and 6 feet, 6 inches, and the tallest women -- eight of them -- are taller than 6 feet. Among the men, eight weigh more than 400 pounds, while the heaviest women -- six in all -- weigh more than 300 pounds.

* Fifty-one permit holders are younger than 20 years old. Five of them are older than 90.

Notable gun permit holders from last year


The paper goes on to list names of many Indiana's law-abiding CHL-holders by name, and occupation. OFCC will respect their privacy - what's left of it - by not publishing them here.)

The Ft. Wayne News-Sentinel is considering destroying the privacy of every single CHL-holder in Allen County, IN, by creating a searchable database on it's website.

http://www.ofcc.net/article1871.html

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

If I cannot legally go, to a range, public or private, taking with me a Remington 700 with a Leupold scope and Harris Bipod, shoot 50 rounds during the course day, practice some practical pistol with the Beretta 92
Lets call it more of a restriction on weapon ownership whether its right is open to discussion, I can remember when you could do all of the above in the UK and I think that there may be some deregulation in the future but time will tell. Most of the factoids we have seen on the UK gun law posts have come from American gun lobby groups who are using as much leverage as possible to keep existing US gun laws if not improve them. By highlighting the UK's rising crime and our lack of handguns they seek to conjure up some analogy that will help them in their fight state side.
On the whole most UK subjects do not have an issue on handgun ownership, the shooting sports thrive in some areas and game shooting and hunting with rifles is popular. I can only wish Americans luck and hope they face no further restrictions on firearms ownership. :)

Sorry, U chose to sit this conversation out...but I had to reply to this one... Oh I am just along for the ride.:)

[BlackRain]

Have a read up on why the gun ban was implemented in the UK. What happened is good enough justification for me.

Since you brought it up:

After World War I, the English government got serious. Though fear of crime was (again) claimed as a justification for much more intrusive gun controls despite no increases of any significance, the real motivation -- as historical records make very clear -- was the fear of armed labor unionists, and perhaps even Bolshevik revolution. Though Parliament in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries had seen an armed citizenry as a valuable check on tyranny, by the 20th century the government was determined to disarm the citizenry so as to eliminate any threats to its power.

Because the 1903 act requiring firearm licensing had not resulted in strict limits on gun ownership, the populace was not much threatened by the 1920 Firearms Act. The act met with much less resistance than the early popular resistance to the 1903 law. But the 1920 Firearms Act began the trend toward the near-complete disarmament of the formerly well-armed English citizenry. This disarmament continued by gradual sub silentio changes in administrative policy. For example, in 1938 the government made the unannounced decision that pistol licenses would no longer be issued to individuals who wanted a gun to defend their homes. Additional legislation followed. As Malcolm puts it:

Parliament passed a comprehensive firearms statute that eliminated the right of individuals to be armed. It was the culmination of fifty years of effort by British governments of every political stripe. The announced rationale by the ruling coalition government was, as usual, an increase in armed crime, yet statistics in London show no such increase. . . . Private Cabinet papers make clear that the government was afraid not of crime but of disorder and even revolution, the same fears that had fuelled government control measures in the past.

By 1953, the English were effectively disarmed — and compounding the insult, courts began prosecuting people for previously legal (and even encouraged) acts of violence in defense of persons and property. In the future, only the police were to use violence, and even they tended to be quite lenient toward violent criminals.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

After World War I, the English government got serious. There was no English government at that time.

I have a sneaky feeling that these are some of the inaccurate factoids that are being promoted by US pro gun groups.
:|

[Geezah]

After World War I, the English government got serious. There was no English government at that time.

I have a sneaky feeling that these are some of the inaccurate factoids that are being promoted by US pro gun groups.
:|

Huh......but David Lloyd George(Liberal) was Prime Minister from 1916-22 and then came Andrew Bonar Law(Conservative) 1922-23 then Stanley Baldwin(Conservative)1923,1924-9,1935-7.
I'm slightly lost as to what you meant?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

After World War I, the English government got serious. There was no English government at that time.

I have a sneaky feeling that these are some of the inaccurate factoids that are being promoted by US pro gun groups.
:|

Huh......but David Lloyd George(Liberal) was Prime Minister from 1916-22 and then came Andrew Bonar Law(Conservative) 1922-23 then Stanley Baldwin(Conservative)1923,1924-9,1935-7.
I'm slightly lost as to what you meant?
There has not been an English government since 1706 correct me if you feel I am wrong, I won't split hairs but for practical purposes it was 1st of May 1707.


Article 1
I. That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN: And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land.
From the Act Of Union 22nd July 1706

[Geezah]

After World War I, the English government got serious. There was no English government at that time.

I have a sneaky feeling that these are some of the inaccurate factoids that are being promoted by US pro gun groups.
:|

Huh......but David Lloyd George(Liberal) was Prime Minister from 1916-22 and then came Andrew Bonar Law(Conservative) 1922-23 then Stanley Baldwin(Conservative)1923,1924-9,1935-7.
I'm slightly lost as to what you meant?
There has not been an English government since 1706 correct me if you feel I am wrong, I won't split hairs but for practical purposes it was 1st of May 1707.


Article 1
I. That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN: And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land.
From the Act Of Union 22nd July 1706

I had a sneaky feeling that's what you meant, allot of the time over here the Americans will/have use/d English and British to describe the same thing. When he refered to the government I took it that he meant British?

[Geezah]

People lining up for concealed carry licenses


Lynn Whipple believes the bumper sticker on his 1986 Toyota pickup truck says it all:

"If guns kill people, then spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat."

Whipple, an 81-year-old Painesville man who wears a yellow ribbon on his sweater vest to support the troops overseas, said the concealed-weapons law that will go into effect April 8 in Ohio is a long time coming.

The law will allow gun owners who pass a background check to holster and hide handguns so long as they successfully complete 12 hours of firearms safety training, including two hours on a firing range.

"This idea that guns kill people is rather silly," said Whipple, who has been firing weapons since he was 8 years old. "You've got to defend yourself. People don't stop and think that a police officer is not going to be there holding your hand if something goes wrong. There are many instances where women have saved themselves from rape because they were armed."

Whipple, a former unarmed security guard who spent three years in the U.S. Air Force, said his own handgun is probably what saved the lives of himself, his wife and their three young children 35 years ago.

"When the kids were little, a guy broke into the house about 1 in the morning," he said. "I instructed him rather forcefully that this was not acceptable behavior. Once he was looking into the other end of that handgun, it was amazing the calming effect it had on him. I scared him enough that he was never involved in anything else afterwards. If I wouldn't have had that handgun, I'm 90 percent sure something would have happened."


Whipple is but one of thousands of people locally who plan to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Dan Brothers, who co-owns Brass Tactics Firearms & Accessories in Eastlake, said more than 600 people have signed up so far for classes at his facility. The classes can host only 10 students at a time and are taught by actual police officers.

"The people who are signing up are not just regular gun enthusiasts," Brothers said. "They are husbands and wives who are taking the class together. We've got a mom and her four daughters taking it for protection. Lately, we've been getting more women calling. But people have been coming in from all walks of life. That's what surprised me."

He added that gun sales are steadily increasing as April 8 approaches.

"We're selling more concealment-type holsters and more small, lightweight firearms - the concealment-type guns," Brothers said.

Jim Rydell, a firearms instructor at Lakeland Community College in Kirtland, said he has authorized 12 concealed carry certificates through the one class he has taught so far. Four were to women.

"The types of people applying aren't drooling, camo-covered maniacs," Rydell said. "They're average people trying to do the right thing."

Anyone hoping to apply for a concealed carry permit must do so through a local sheriff's office.

Geauga County Sheriff Daniel C. McClelland said his office receives calls daily about the application process - despite the fact that Ohio sheriffs have yet to receive any applications from state officials, which could hold things up for would-be permit holders.

"What the public doesn't know is that although the law goes into effect April 8, the state has 30 days after that to develop the rules and another 30 days to put the rules into effect," McClelland said.

This means those hoping to carry concealed weapons may have to wait until as late as June 8 to do so.

Chief Deputy Charles Corral of the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's office said he doesn't mind a bit if there's a delay.

"I have to abide by the law," Corral said. "But personally, it's a concern. It just means more people with guns. And I have a concern with more people with guns."

State Sen. Eric Fingerhut, D-Shaker Heights, agrees.

"People will turn nonviolent situations into violent situations and innocent people will be hurt," he said. "The background check process in Ohio is very inadequate and doesn't contain any mental illness records. A very high percentage of gun crimes involve people experiencing mental illness."

Fingerhut said he encourages property owners to post signs that they don't allow loaded weapons on their premises.

"The training that is needed to know when to pull a gun is the type of training that very few people have," the senator said. "Our law enforcement officers receive hundreds of hours of training, and even then, they sometimes make mistakes."

For the full concealed-carry weapons law, visit the Ohio Attorney General's Web site at www.ag.state.oh.us.

Commentary:
Cuyahoga Co. Sheriff's office Chief Deputy Corral and State Sen. Eric Fingerhut need to get out more. Perhaps take a trip across state lines to Michigan, where their baseless fears have been proven wrong for two years and counting, or to Indiana, where people have been obtaining CHLs for nearly 70 years without ANY required training.

Geauga Co. Sheriff McClelland needs to check back in with the Ohio Attorney General's office, which is not indicating that there will be a significant delay in implementation of the law. In fact, the OAG has just released the long-awaited Concealed Carry Training Pamphlet. OFCC is communication with this office on an almost-daily basis, and they continue to work towards an April 8 implementaiton date.


http://www.ofcc.net/article1873.html