Media and The Chechen War.

[Kilgor]

This is a question that has been bugging me a long long time.
Why is there so little coverage of this war in the media ? The death tolls and human rights abuses on both sides have been massive, maybe more than the two gulf wars and the Israeli crisis combined and yet nothing is said about it. In many western countries, the political left is obsessed with the Israeli Crisis and US "imperialism" but rarely is this topic is ever touched. We have critics like Chomsky and Moore who are equally obsessed with middle eastern events, but completely overlook this ongoing bloodbath.

Please do Not start NATION BASHING

I want to get opinions on why the media doesnt touch this issue, particulary the "fashionable" left.

Is there no political gain to be made from this war ? Because the US is not involved there is no hate to be made ?

[RomanS]

This is a question that has been bugging me a long long time.
Why is there so little coverage of this war in the media ? The death tolls and human rights abuses on both sides have been massive, maybe more than the two gulf wars and the Israeli crisis combined and yet nothing is said about it. In many western countries, the political left is obsessed with the Israeli Crisis and US "imperialism" but rarely is this topic is ever touched. We have critics like Chomsky and Moore who are equally obsessed with middle eastern events, but completely overlook this ongoing bloodbath.

Please do Not start NATION BASHING

I want to get opinions on why the media doesnt touch this issue, particulary the "fashionable" left.

Is there no political gain to be made from this war ? Because the US is not involved there is no hate to be made ?

Actually the media did try it. But unfortenataly it turned into this -
and example of CNN report on first Chechen war.

Grozny January 2nd 1995, Russian Ministery of Defence along with Interior troops stormed city of Grozny, Chechnya. In the fierce fighting Russians lost and left behind 10,000 troops, and 4000 units of armour.

brave Chechen freedom fighters only lost 3 fighters. 300,000 civilians were killed by Russian SU-25s and Mi-24s. The Russian artillery continues pounding outskirts of Grozny killing another 200,000 civilians.



YEAH, after that Russians didn't want CNN to report a war for us. We won't let international media to come and tag along with us anymore.

Therefore, only Chechens let big boys on to their side. BBC, CNN, NBC...

Little agencies are no longer visiting Chechnya, because of kidnapings and murder by Chechen thugs.

We just don't want to trust western media with the conflict. I think western media hates us. You know Stalin, occupation of Poland, Cold War, Communism, they still think its there ALIVE

[Kilgor]

I just have this theory that the left dont care about it, because no political gain can be made. Add to that european politicans, and anti-americans.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Heh, you cant trust the CNN with anything.
After the battle of Jenin, when arafart said 500 were killed and israelis said under a hundred, a clueless CNN reporter said that from his experience the number is probably right down the middle.
And there was some **** said during OEF as well.
Not to mention their comedy during the Balkans conflict :lol:

[UkrainianAmerican]

I just have this theory that the left dont care about it, because no political gain can be made. Add to that european politicans, and anti-americans.
Most likely is true. Kinda hard to blame American Right for much in that war, so why bother wasting resources to cover it?

[MEGR]

I was curious about this too. Is there a site or something that posts accurate news about what is going on in Chechnya?

[RomanS]

I was curious about this too. Is there a site or something that posts accurate news about what is going on in Chechnya?

nothing in English

[Undo]

It could also be that any current reported would require a reversal of a previous stated position. CNN and BBC would both have to acknowledge that the "freedom fighters" they previously heralded have been tied to al-quida and are basicly a bunch of psycho martyr wannabes, whereas the previously disdained Russians are actually fighting the same battle as the US and Isreal. Hmm. Could pose a problem. I don't see it happening, although the recent terrorist attacks have made them report on something relating to the conflict. They usually avoid going into any detail or showing too much footage that might engender sympathy for the Russians. C'est la Guerre.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

It could also be that any current reported would require a reversal of a previous stated position. CNN and BBC would both have to acknowledge that the "freedom fighters" they previously heralded have been tied to al-quida and are basicly a bunch of psycho martyr wannabes, whereas the previously disdained Russians are actually fighting the same battle as the US and Isreal. Hmm. Could pose a problem. I don't see it happening, although the recent terrorist attacks have made them report on something relating to the conflict. They usually avoid going into any detail or showing too much footage that might engender sympathy for the Russians. C'est la Guerre.

Word^

Talk about a Cold War mentality hangover, couldnt have said it better myself.

[GazB]

Add to that european politicans, and anti-americans.

So you think CNN is anti American?

In NZ I have access to ABC, CNN, Fox News, and BBC news (as well as NZ and Australian news) and of these sources the BBC seem least biased, though if it is reporting sport if England isn't involved ou don't generally hear about it. The American always seem to enjoy playing stories showing problems in Russia, but since 11/9 they don't seem very keen on reporting the conflict in Chechnia... one way or the other. Before 11/9 it was one way... poor innocent chechens... Perhaps after they lost a few reporters they decided they weren't so inncoent afterall. Certainly seeing so called freedom fighters sawing off the heads of disarmed enemies makes it hard to claim them to be victims.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Add to that european politicans, and anti-americans.

So you think CNN is anti American?


CNN = Commie News Network

It's a joke, but CNN does have a left-liberal bias.

It does not surprise me that CNN would slant their reporting against the Russians. The liberals favored the muslims in the Balkan wars, so why not Chechnia too? That said, the peaceniks don't want US fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq either.

FOX news is much better than CNN.

[Flagg]

In NZ I have access to ABC, CNN, Fox News, and BBC news (as well as NZ and Australian news) and of these sources the BBC seem least biased, though if it is reporting sport if England isn't involved ou don't generally hear about it. The American always seem to enjoy playing stories showing problems in Russia, but since 11/9 they don't seem very keen on reporting the conflict in Chechnia... one way or the other. Before 11/9 it was one way... poor innocent chechens... Perhaps after they lost a few reporters they decided they weren't so inncoent afterall. Certainly seeing so called freedom fighters sawing off the heads of disarmed enemies makes it hard to claim them to be victims.

Agreed......the NZ news sources are quite reliable as well(if a bit left of centre).....they don't have as big of an agenda.....althought NZ international coverage is spotty at best due to limited funding.

[Groove]

CNN and FOX:

CONFLICT REGION <- CNN REPORTING -> CNN SATELITE -> PENTAGON -> CNN HQ ATLANTA -> NEWS

If you are a pro with satellite dishes you can catch the unfiltered CNN Satelite raw material. Just compare it with what they show on News, especially when USA is in war for peace.

Greetings

Groove

[Javehn]

I really dislike CNN . One of it's problems , that many times they hired local reporters , cameramen , or just bought their footage . Those local reporters never forgot to add in the interview the personal Bias of them , and make it look like they want it . Thow i don't see any Chechen reporter that can speak decent English , i am shure in their finger counted reports about Chechnya the cameramen and reporters had local guide .

In our place , we wanted to kick CNN reporters out , and to have Fox only instead of it . I have personally incountered with words "generocity" of BBC reporters .

And along with Chechnya i can add Africa problems . The body count , and the ammount of reference they get in the news is just redicolous .
People just not interested in it . Unfortunatly they are much more interested in my country , then other place , even if the human blood is the same everywhere .

[Chasseur_Alpin]

CNN is more impartial and independant than Fox (euphemism)
FOx is a pure product of propaganda, I think...

[mocking_loudly_died]

The most adult news service I have seen to this day is the news hour on PBS.
Informed debate with no theatrics.

[Kilgor]

whos the girl in your avatar again ?

[intelligenzija]

I was curious about this too. Is there a site or something that posts accurate news about what is going on in Chechnya?
here you can find news /updates:
http://rfforces.phpbbhost1.info/viewtopic.php?t=436 [/quote]

[five-five-sixer]

This is a question that has been bugging me a long long time.
Why is there so little coverage of this war in the media ? (...)
Is there no political gain to be made from this war ? Because the US is not involved there is no hate to be made ?
rofl rofl
Sweet Jesus... The answer is So simple!



300,000 civilians were killed by Russian SU-25s and Mi-24s. The Russian artillery continues pounding outskirts of Grozny killing another 200,000 civilians.
Not true?



YEAH, after that Russians didn't want CNN to report a war for us. We won't let international media to come and tag along with us anymore.

Therefore, only Chechens let big boys on to their side. BBC, CNN, NBC...

Little agencies are no longer visiting Chechnya, because of kidnapings and murder by Chechen thugs.

We just don't want to trust western media with the conflict. I think western media hates us. You know Stalin, occupation of Poland, Cold War, Communism, they still think its there ALIVE
U R pathetic. Indeed it IS ALIVE IN CHECHNYA - more alive than it ever was. This is NOT war on terrorism - only a fool could belive such a ridiculous cover up story - THIS IS GENOCIDE on Chechen nation. Sorry - I just have to say it, seeing U being such ignorants.
Ok, I'll go back to media - why no coverage?
Ha ha ha ha ha. R U guys really that silly??? Well, reporters can go to Chechnya - if they receive a permission from russian goverment. But fact of the matter is that even if they get it they have NO RIGHT TO ENTER CHECHNYA -UNLESS WITH A GROUP ORGANIZED BY RUSSIANS. So they see only what russians want them to see. There's no point in going on such trips with russian soldiers.
When no journalist can cross Chechen border independently, russians have a TOTAL CONTROL over the flow of information. So russians can do everything they want in Chechnya and they obviously take advantage of this possibility.
U R russian, right? Than U probably know the least about this war :lol:
There were Russian TV channels that were telling the truth about Chechen war for example NTV TV-6 TVS - they were independent. And what? They were closed down. guess why.
Nowdays there are very few independent media in Russia. Stalin's dream alive again.
They say Chechens have links to Al-quida, but yet provided no prooves The same with Mashadov. Goverment also Accused Chcechens of blowing up blocks of flats. This is really ridiculous. Some time ago, FSB member was caught planting explosives in such block - Goverment said: exercise! rofl rofl rofl
Chechen terrorists? Russian troops conducting a "anti-terrorist operation", restoring law and order? Media not interested? Chechens tied with al-quida? :D
POOR FOOLS :lol:

[SAS Britain]

Nah mate, you are the pathetic one. Sympathising with those animals. They are not people, but meer animals. sixer you are an idiot, Russia needs borders and is simply exterminating an uprising in it's own territory!!

[mocking_loudly_died]

whos the girl in your avatar again ?

My mom.

[five-five-sixer]

Oh yeah? By exterminating civilians? Interesting? Since when murdering, torturing, raping defenseless civilians is fighting an uprising?
Oh yaeh sas U R right - those pple are animals because they were born in Chechnya and they try to stay alive (don't fight). I agree 100% :lol:
There is a GENOCIDE going on and you say that exterminating a nation is like hunting meer animals. CONGRATULATIONS, moron.
BTW have you heard about the new russian weapon? What is it? Explosive toys and teddy bears :lol: :lol: :lol: - exterminating an uprising, right? Than russian TV says that a 5 years old girl was trying to plant a mine, rofl
U R a fool sas, what more can I say...

[intelligenzija]

defenseless civilians
hahaha, alright :D

[UkrainianAmerican]

In my opinion Fox news is just a bit more balanced out CNN. But like CNN, they still dont pay enough attention to international issues, and concentrate on Laci Peterson/kobe bryant etc. until i am sick of wasting my time watching them.
As a reliable source of news and information i read the Wall Street Journal. They are very realistic in their reporting and dont get emotional (unlike the times)

[five-five-sixer]

defenseless civilians
hahaha, alright :D
Yes, indeed. Of course they are also fighting soldiers, but civilians have no rights as well. You probably haven't even heard of refugees :lol: , right? Then try to find out what they say. Only north koreans may surpass russian govt. in human rights violations and crimes. If you all disagree with me, just say there is no genocide, and I won't say a word again. I won't try to force anyone to belive the truth!

[tony6]

My mom.
I'd say Your mom is hot :D

[Haiw]

My mom.
I'd say Your mom is hot :D
MILF!!!

[Marmot1]

My mom.
I'd say Your mom is hot :D
Can you give me her number? :lol: ;)

[Dennis G]

sixer have you seen some of the videos of Russian Soldiers being executed? Terrorist all over the world are animals and I bet Chechnya has some of the worst breeds of them.

[Argo AdAm]

Goverment also Accused Chcechens of blowing up blocks of flats. This is really ridiculous. Some time ago, FSB member was caught planting explosives in such block - Goverment said: exercise! rofl rofl rofl
I remember that but how many Russians remember that...? :|
For these who doesn't know what we are talking about I present short remindering below. I suggest to read this very carefuly, it's realy interesting.

Ryazan "exercises"


http://edwardjayepstein.com/question_putin.htm
Question:
Six bombs in Russian apartment houses in 1999 were blamed on Chechen terrorists. They engendered a national panic that helped justify Vladimir Putin's full-scale invasion of Chechenya. The first five bombs caused 300 deaths; the sixth bomb, in the city of Ryazan, was detected in advance and defused by a bomb squad on September 22nd, 1999. It was the only incident in which the perpetrators were seen.

Who was behind the Ryazan Incident?

Answer:

The FSB, the successor intelligence service to the KGB which Putin headed before becoming Acting President and then, after his military success in Chechenya, President of Russia.

Here is what happened on the night of September 22rd, 1999. At about 9 PM, a bus driver returning from work to his apartment on New Settler's Street in Ryazan, saw a white car backed up to the high-rise building in which he lived. He noticed that its license plate had been suspiciously taped over. Then, two men and a woman, who appeared to be coming from the basement of the building , got in. One man was looking at his watch then the trio drove off in a rush. The bus driver immediately called the police emergency number.

The local police arrived, went to the basement, and came rushing out shouting 'bomb'. A bomb-disposal team then defused and removed the alien device from the building. Concerned that there might be other bombs, the police proceeded to evacuate all the residents to a nearby cinema, where they spent the entire night and next morning.

In Moscow, on September 23rd, the FSB announced that a "terrorist action" in Ryazan had been narrowly averted, and the next day Acting President ordered the Russian Army to invade Chechenya and eliminate the terrorists' bases.

Meanwhile, in Ryazan, preliminary lab tests showed the presence of explosives in the device that were similar to the five other bombs blamed on Chechen terrorists, according to Lieutenant-Colonel Sergei Kabashov of the Ryazan police. Acting on the assumption that it was the work of Chechen terrorists, the police located the white car with the doctored plates which had been abandoned in a parking lot near the train station. While tracing its engine number for the identity of the car's chain of ownership, the police put the city's railroad stations under tight surveillance. Presumably, the trio, whom residents of the building had described, were trapped in Ryazan. At this point, a local operator intercepted a phone call. It was from an unidentified person in Ryazan to FSB headquarters in Moscow. The FSB official advised the apparently panicked team in Ryazan to "split up" to evade police surveillance at the train station.

And then in Moscow, just as the Ryazan police were closing in on the trio of suspects, Nikolai Patrushev, the head of the FSB in Moscow, announced that the incident in Ryazan had been nothing more than a "training exercise" staged by the FSB to test local vigilance. He explained the earlier FSB announcement that it was a "terrorist action" was erroneous, as was the police analysis revealing explosives in the bomb. The white car belonged to the FSB. The trio who planted the device were FSB agents. The device secreted in the apartment house basement contained, according to the FSB, harmless sugar.

So the FSB admitted it was behind the Ryazan incident. As it turned out, there were no more "training exercises"-- or, for that matter, bombs in apartment houses.

another text about "Ryazan's exercises"

http://www.earthisland.org/project/newsPage2.cfm?newsID=254&pageID=177&subSiteID=44
Russia: Was Putin behind the Apartment Bombings?In September 1999, a series of three “terrorist bombings” demolished several Russian apartment buildings, killing hundreds of innocent civilians. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin immediately blamed the bombings on “Chechen terrorists” and used public anger to justify the bombing of Chechnya. Within a matter of months, Putin’s anti-terrorist campaign culminated in his election as Russia’s newest President.

But there was a fourth apartment bombing. On September 22, a group of FSB agents (Russia’s version of the FBI) were discovered in a Ryazan apartment planting a bomb set to explode at 5:30 a.m. Red-faced FSB officials initially explained that they had “prevented” a bombing but then changed their story to say that the bomb-makers were engaged in an “anti-terrorist training exercise.” Coincidentally, Vladimir Putin had previously headed the FSB.

In March 2002, new attention was brought to bear on “what Putin knew and when he knew it” when embattled media mogul Boris Berezovsky went public with claims that Putin’s forces were actually responsible for setting the series of terror bombings.

On March 17, 2000, The Moscow Times reported that there was “no proof Chechens blew up buildings” and a number of Russian politicians demanded an independent investigation of the bombings. The Russian Parliament nixed the call for a probe and Putin ascended to the presidency within a matter of weeks.

The March 21 edition of Egypt’s Al-Ahram Weekly took notice of Berezvosky’s charge. Berezovksky, a former Putin ally who now lives in exile, has since produced a controversial documentary called "Assassination in Russia." In the documentary, a former Russian state security agent and a British explosives expert discuss their roles in the bombings.

The Independent (London) also reported that Alexei Gaitin, a member of the GRU (Russia’s military intelligence service), had videotaped a confession that “the FSB, in cooperation with the GRU… is responsible for the explosions in Volgodonsk and Moscow.” The Independent notes that these bombings “ignited the latest war in Chechnya and propelled Vladimir Putin into the Kremlin.” (Putin is now busy dismantling Russia’s civil rights protections, following in the bootsteps of Attorney General John Ashcroft.)

and THE STORY OF THE BOMBINGS IN PRESS REPORTS - http://eng.terror99.ru/archive/1999.html
-----

My comment = :cantbeli:

Tomorrow are presidental elections in Russia... Putin will win again... :|
(I know it's not my business but...)
Regards

[five-five-sixer]

sixer have you seen some of the videos of Russian Soldiers being executed? Terrorist all over the world are animals and I bet Chechnya has some of the worst breeds of them.

OK, then have U seen videos of Chechen Civilians being tortured, raped and executed? And why do U call them terrorists? Because they execute russians? Well, russian soldiers have mastered the skill of exterminating defenseless civilians, and that is more than enough to hate them.

Thanks for support Argo Adam, I was afraid everyone here's blind.

[GazB]

It's a joke, but CNN does have a left-liberal bias.

It does not surprise me that CNN would slant their reporting against the Russians. The liberals favored the muslims in the Balkan wars, so why not Chechnia too? That said, the peaceniks don't want US fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq either.


You call CNN commie then you agree that they choose to report against former communist Russians and in favour of Muslims. That doesn't make sense to me.

Also you are suggesting that the left liberal supporters in the US hate the US? Why don't they leave if that is the case?

We have left and right and centreist parties here in NZ but none of them hate NZ. Why is it different in the US?

I have noticed that your political parties will criticise each other for no reason other than for the opportunity to put down the other side, but I doubt that equates with hating the US.



Agreed......the NZ news sources are quite reliable as well(if a bit left of centre).....they don't have as big of an agenda.....althought NZ international coverage is spotty at best due to limited funding.


I think it also has to do with the fact that most of the sources they use for international news are the BBC anyway.





300,000 civilians were killed by Russian SU-25s and Mi-24s. The Russian artillery continues pounding outskirts of Grozny killing another 200,000 civilians.
Not true?


How did they manage to hide half a million graves? How many Hinds and Su-25s did they have and who counted who was killed by what? When you see such round figures you know they are estimates... to determine accuracy you look at the estimator... in this case doesn't have a great record...



Indeed it IS ALIVE IN CHECHNYA - more alive than it ever was. This is NOT war on terrorism - only a fool could belive such a ridiculous cover up story - THIS IS GENOCIDE on Chechen nation.

Yes, I guess that is why chechens fight on the side of the Russians is it? If it really was genocide then it wouldn't have taken this long.




Well, reporters can go to Chechnya - if they receive a permission from russian goverment.


Hahahahaha... yes because the Russian government has complete control who goes in... that is why there are no Saudi nationals, nor other foreign fighters there at all.



Explosive toys and teddy bears - exterminating an uprising, right?

Hahahaha... they are not trying that old chestnut again. In afghanistan it was ****ytraped pens and transistor radios... it later turned out they were made in america and altered in america so the CIA could prove what evil people the Russians were...


Thanks for support Argo Adam, I was afraid everyone here's blind.

Blind, or unwilling to believe the rantings of those who support terrorism?

Russian and Soviet Special forces have a long and documented history of performing exercises in urban areas in realistic conditions. A Spetsnaz soldier would be dropped in the middle of a city with the local police alerted to the fact that a dangerous criminal has escaped. The higher ups know what is going on but the dogs and the handlers and those in the field rarely were informed. If caught the soldier was usually rather badly treated and could be shot, but then in a real war that would happen to them too. Press releases would be given that the escaped convict was dangerous and not to be approached. If he was captured or succeded in his mission there was no correction to the original warnings... they didn't want a cry wolf situation where if a real criminal escaped that everyone would assume it was a test.

After Chechen criminals blow up an apartment building don't you think anti bombing exercises would be carried out as a matter of course?

[AK-Lover]

so five-five-sixer, since there is war crimes in chechnya there must be war crimes in Iraq? How about the american soldier who shot a 11 year old girl who was supposedly holding a gun. Man, STFU! You are talking bull****, why don't you go and express you're views to those russian soldiers who lost friends in that war? Oh and here's something for ya while were at it: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0707-02.htm
:D

[SeanAshi]

Saeb Erakat: http://www.mideasttruth.com/jenin.wav

[Kingpin]

Indeed it IS ALIVE IN CHECHNYA - more alive than it ever was. This is NOT war on terrorism - only a fool could belive such a ridiculous cover up story - THIS IS GENOCIDE on Chechen nation.

Do you know that chechen nation grew in numbers over recent decade. Now there are more than million of them. So where is this genocide. If it is i'd say it is VERY unsuccessful. :)

[five-five-sixer]

Indeed it IS ALIVE IN CHECHNYA - more alive than it ever was. This is NOT war on terrorism - only a fool could belive such a ridiculous cover up story - THIS IS GENOCIDE on Chechen nation.

Do you know that chechen nation grew in numbers over recent decade. Now there are more than million of them. So where is this genocide. If it is i'd say it is VERY unsuccessful. :)

Where did U get this **** info??!@!!!!
From russian govt? rofl

[five-five-sixer]

After Chechen criminals blow up an apartment building rofl

[five-five-sixer]

express you're views to those russian soldiers who lost friends in that war?
Oh **** - that's not an argument! Then U go to refugee camps in ingushetia, and express your views to Chechens who lost their friends and families (NOT SOLDIERS) in Chechnya.
R U **** politician or what?

[intelligenzija]

good argumentation GazB

[martinexsquaddie]

unfortunatly the russian army does'nt have much of a reputation for avoiding collateral damage. treatment of prisoners of war etc etc.

[mocking_loudly_died]

My mom.
I'd say Your mom is hot :D
Can you give me her number? :lol: ;)

202-324-3000

[five-five-sixer]

Council member of the Memorial Human Rights Organisation (Alexander Cherkasov) recently said that if we compared the number of Chechens missing and killed during the LAST DECADE to the total republic's population, we may say that during this time Chechnya went through second half of World War II and whole Stalin's terror.

Dedicated to Kingpin

[Kingpin]

President of the Memorial Human Rights Organisation recently said that if we looked at the number of Chechens missing and killed during the LAST DECADE, we may say that during this time Chechnya went through second half of World War II and whole Stalin's terror.

Dedicated to Kingpin

I can say that i'm personally killed Kennedy and what?

[five-five-sixer]

Kingin - everyone's lying but Putin right?

[five-five-sixer]

If U prefer to trust him rather than independent human rights organisations - your choice.

[volfram]

Not only human rights organization,also european council,political and rather pro-rusian organisation described situation in Chehnya as genocide.

[16 OBr SpN]

Not only human rights organization,also european council,political and rather pro-rusian organisation described situation in Chehnya as genocide.

First of all, you people should at least understand what genocide means!!

GENOCIDE - The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Can we consider the Holocaust as genocide? Yes!
Can we consider ethnic cleansings in Rwanda as genocide? Yes!

Can we consider the Chechen conflict as genocide? NO!!

Who's the president of Chechnya? A Chechen!!
What nationality is the majority in the government of Chechnya?? 99% are Chechens!!
Is religion of Islam banned in Chechnya?? NO!!
Are chechens being dragged out onto the streets of Grozny/Moscow/St. Petersburg/etc., and being executed?? NO!!

Now, WTF are you talking about!!!?

[five-five-sixer]

The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

You have just described what is going on in Chechnya.




Can we consider the Chechen conflict as genocide? NO!!
Poor fool...



Who's the president of Chechnya? A Chechen!!
Oh yeah? Why do you talk obout that? U R right. President of Chcechnya is indeed a Chechen - a Chechen traitor chosen by Kremlin.



What nationality is the majority in the government of Chechnya?? 99% are Chechens!! As above.



Is religion of Islam banned in Chechnya?? NO
Well, no, but it seems that being a Chechen is considered a huge crime.



Are chechens being dragged out onto the streets of Grozny/Moscow/St. Petersburg/etc., and being executed?? NO!!
Well, this discussion is pointless, because you simply don't want to accept the truth. The answer to this question is "yes". In Chechnya people are being arrested, tortured, executed etc. without any reasons (except for being a Chechen)



Now, WTF are you talking about!!!?
Look above.
Now, can you answer this question?

PS Dzięki za wsparcie. Myślałem, że mnie zjedzą...

[Haiw]

It doesn't take much foresight to predict a verbal ass-whooping...

[Argo AdAm]

Thanks for support Argo Adam, I was afraid everyone here's blind.

Blind, or unwilling to believe the rantings of those who support terrorism?


I putted only well known facts (but forgotten...) about Ryazan incident and not imagined story.
You can believe in what you want. If you don't want to see what these facts are saying it's your choice.
I can understand that sometimes it's simply easier to live trying to dont't see the truth and believing in lies... but I think it isn't a real live.

BTW
http://www.grani.ru/images/14.jpg

[Russian Texan]

You know, after reading this and other threads about Russia in general and Chechnya and particular, it became obvious to me: there is a group of decisively anti-russian people who, no matter with what facts and arguments presented, will always portray Russia as a monster, thug and accuse it of every possible wrongdoing and crime...

But does the opinion of those disgruntled and hypocritical people really matter, is what they think going to make a difference? - No.
They are nothing but a bunch of winers and cry-babbies who are big on talk but small on action, they constantly deny or eggagerate facts and occurences and for some reason refuse to do anything that would make a difference: go to one of the refugee camps to work as a volunteer or adopt a chechen orphan...

I am asking those who expressed compassion for Chechens and accused Russia of genocide, war-crimes, etc, why don't you do something about it?
What do you think is a solution to the Russian problem with Chechnya?
And what is the difference between people who rammed airplanes into WTC, blew up trains in Spain and those who exploded appartment buildings in Moscow? C'mon guys, this question is for Agro Adam, marmot,etc..

In the end of the day it all doesn't matter: Russians love Putin and he just won a second term, war in Chechnya is over, terrorists find less and less support for thier cause among chechens and most of the polacks on this forum still can't get over of being Russia's bitch for the most of the last century...

There is a saying" The dog is barking but caravan is still going..."
The point is that regardless how much you bark - it won't change a thing and this makes me smile :)
So carry on: stay miserable, disgruntled, spew your spit all over a keyboard telling stories about how bad Russia and russians are - Russia will just keep on going and do whatever it finds necessary to provide security for its own citizens....

[AK-Lover]

GO RUSSIA! Five-Five-Sixer get off CNN and pick up some books, second however much you'd like to support the chechen terrorist dogs they already lost and chechnya is russia's just as it should be! woot :D
And if you like the russians to stop "genocide" why don't you hitch a rid eto chechnya and tell that to those OMON guys! :P You know get their "response and side of the story!" :backhand: :P

[five-five-sixer]

it's simply easier to live trying to not to see the truth and believing in lies... but I think it isn't a real life.
To AK-Lover and Russian Texan: as Adam said. Ignorance is bliss :|


HELL WITH YOU!!!

[Russian Texan]

as Adam said. Ignorance is bliss :|
HELL WITH YOU!!!

Yep, thats the first thought that crossed my mind when I read your post ;)

So how come you are still here and not in Chechnya helping refugees?

[Kingpin]

PS Dzięki za wsparcie. Myślałem, że mnie zjedzą...

Ahh... One more Poland idiot. If you only knew how I tired of your type (despite i always tried to stay polite). **** out of this thread moron...

For what **** i should trust to Polish, American or any other well paid bastards. Yes my governoment officials lies sometimes to me and this is bad. But you better stay out of our internal affairs. Watch yours.

[five-five-sixer]

Nie odpowiadajcie już - tu sami buce są...
Dajmy spokój kretynom - mają na głowie Putina przez następne 4 lata (co najmniej) :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Kingpin]

Nie odpowiadajcie już - tu sami buce są...

I think we can solve our dispute in the following form. Now you should go to Poland Humanitarian Action (or something like this), join them and go to Grozny to help them cleaning public toilets (that their activity now in Cehchnya according to their www). So you could easily check situation by your own.

Got enough balls for this?

[GazB]

unfortunatly the russian army does'nt have much of a reputation for avoiding collateral damage. treatment of prisoners of war etc etc.

I'd say driving into Grozny on the back of tanks in the hope that such a show of force might make them stop with their miitary action and talk about it instead was a bit brutal, but the fact that the whole city had been turned into one large tank trap suggested to me that this wasn't a case of Little Red Riding Hood and the Wolf... but two old experienced wolves that weren't interested in chatting.

They underestimated their enemy once and a couple of times since but any brutality was earned.

BTW I believe the engilish have a reputation for whining about the weather, and the Yanks a reputation for bombing the wrong country... if you want to live in reputation land you go right ahead. Note the reputation for brutality held by a german is actually a compliment. Show me someone who has a reputation for being nice during a war and I'll show you a pussy.


You have just described what is going on in Chechnya.

What evidence do you have? Pictures? Movies? How many Chechens would support such a thing?


a Chechen traitor chosen by Kremlin.


You said it was genocide. If it really was genocide why bother appointing any of them anything... just kill them.


Well, no, but it seems that being a Chechen is considered a huge crime.

Gee whiz I wonder why? Japanese were so popular in the US during WWII and the British just loved their germans to bits over the same time period.


In Chechnya people are being arrested, tortured, executed etc. without any reasons (except for being a Chechen)

Well for quite a number of Arab people in the US they probably feel the same. Not really genocide though is it?


I can understand that sometimes it's simply easier to live trying to dont't see the truth and believing in lies... but I think it isn't a real live.


Ahhh, yes it makes much more sense to think that the Russians are killing each other so they can attack a neighbour that was already collapsing. The attacks on Dagestan were already enough to justify a second invasion... the attacks in apartments in Moscow were not pivotal. Dagestan is part of the Russian Federation and when they asked for help from the religious nutters that ruled chechnia at the time Moscow was obliged to help.
The more Chechen so called rebels take a dirt nap the better as far as I am concerned. If there are civilian casualties then that is sad... unless they supported the rebels and then it is not sad it is just the logistics chain getting hit. The Americans call it collateral damage and it happens in every war. As Dmitri Lukin in Operation Flashpoint, Red Hammer Mission says... shooting civilians is a waste of good ammo.

[Argo AdAm]

You know, after reading this and other threads about Russia in general and Chechnya and particular, it became obvious to me: there is a group of decisively anti-russian people who, no matter with what facts and arguments presented, will always portray Russia as a monster, thug and accuse it of every possible wrongdoing and crime...
To me something other becomes obvious - no matter with ours explanations most of Russians here always take attack on Russian government as attack on whole Russia but this is huge misunderstanding. For me there is a big difference between Russian people and its authorities. I sympathize with everyone who suffers from people who rule in Russia. Victims of men like Putin, Yeltzyn are Russian soldiers dying in Chechnya, Chechen civilians and innocent Russians.

Similiary, if you want - feel free to judge Polish government but beware of generalization of all the Poles.


I am asking those who expressed compassion for Chechens and accused Russia of genocide, war-crimes, etc, why don't you do something about it?
What do you think is a solution to the Russian problem with Chechnya?
My thoughts: It's clear that the best solution in every war with terrorism is destroy the reasons of terrorism, of course only there where it is possible. Another very important thing is to neutralize a support to terrorist in local society. It seems to me that Russian still in fact do completely nothing in these things. All what they do is fight with chechen freefighters and terrorists by force of arms but fighting against symptomies you can't win with disease.
In Chechnya the reason to fight with Russian is very simple - for Chechens Russian were for many years before and still are strangers, occupants and after last two wars almost every Rusian man is considerede as a morderer, rapist etc. In in that same time Russians like you call every Chechen animals, because some stupid Chechen decide to become terrorists and to kill Russian civilians.
You know that if nothing is going to change, if this situation, this relationship between Chechens and Russians won't change then people in Moscow will never be save. I think Gen. Lebed (R.I.P. :( ) knew that fact.

What can change the situation?

1) Withdrow from Chechnya but leave there strong authorities that would be friendly to Russian. I know it's impossible when Putin is in charge of the Kremlin.

or

2) Give Chechens real and not "pseudo-real" autonomy so they can feel they rule in their homeland and not occupants.

Beside that I suggest you open other front of war - "war for hearts and minds". I wonder how many hospitals and schools have Russians builded in Chechnya since they won the lats war? Is there a single Russian organization helping to rebuild Chechen society?


And what is the difference between people who rammed airplanes into WTC, blew up trains in Spain and those who exploded appartment buildings in Moscow? C'mon guys, this question is for Agro Adam, marmot,etc.. (it's Argo Adam and it's impotrtant because "Argo" is my dog's name ;) )

Of course there is no difference and that's why I don't sympathize with any terrorists no matter what is their nationality (including Polish). And do you see the difference between chechen terrorists and chechen defenceless civilians? Many Russians here call every Chechen animals. Should I call all Russians fascists and communists only because I see that fasict and communists organizations are doing well In Russia nowadays?


There is a saying" The dog is barking but caravan is still going..."
I know other saying: "if someone is peeing on you don't say that it's just a rain..."
If you don't know what I'm talking about then I will tell you - every lie from Russian government, from Putin's mouth is just another raindrop...

If you don't know what lies I mean, I will tell you:
- Kursk (about how long marines were dying and what was the real reason of this accident),
- Nord-Ost (about why people were dying after action - because doctors didn't have antidote, Putin said they had it),
- incident in Ryazan mentioned before, you can believe or not
- cases of arrested innocent man like Grigory Pasko and Aleksandr Nikitin (old good KGB methods),
- neutralizzation of free media - closed TV stations (old good communist methods),
- cenzorship (of course Kremlin says it doesn't exist - old good Soviet Union methods)


The point is that regardless how much you bark - it won't change a thing and this makes me smile :)
So carry on: stay miserable, disgruntled, spew your spit all over a keyboard telling stories about how bad Russia and russians are - Russia will just keep on going and do whatever it finds necessary to provide security for its own citizens....
But who protect Russian citizens against their own government? :|

Regards

[Argo AdAm]

Sorry I know I may be boring but I just couldn't... - once again about "Ryazan exercises" - inetersting site http://terror99.ru (russian version) and http://eng.terror99.ru (english version)
http://terror99.ru/images/m01.gif

[Kingpin]

Sorry I know I may be boring but I just couldn't... - once again about "Ryazan exercises" - inetersting site http://terror99.ru (russian version) and http://eng.terror99.ru (english version)
http://terror99.ru/images/m01.gif

One unfortunate detail - all thing funded by Mr. Berezovsky.

[RomanS]

Notice How I'm not participating in the argument at all.

Should I?

Five Five would you like to participate with me in a peacful debate over Chechnya, it's history, leaders, laws, and what was happening in Ichkeria pre-94 ?

Are you sure you ready for this?

It must be easy to accuse Russia and our leaders in "genocide", but can you stay in a real debate with me?

Come on, its a challenge.

Argo perhaps you too?

[RomanS]

FSB has a 17 minute recording done by Hattab
On the tape Hattab introduces a new addition to the mudjahadeen.
The guy is here on the photo, look at the white arrow.

http://2002.novayagazeta.ru/nomer/2002/54n/n54n-s05.jpg

The man is Achemez Gocheyaev aka LISA (Fox)

http://www.fsb.ru/images/search/gochi4.jpg

Hattab praises him for a completion of an operation he calls "Punch in the Heart"

Hattab is absolutely sure that the new adition to the crew is worth every penny. He asks his sponsors to bump Gocheyaev's salary through the tape, explaining how sucsesful was the operation in Moscow.

Thanks to the person who's been Hattab's good reliabale source for providing the tape for FSB. The same guy later carried out an operation against Hattab, which resulted in his death.

There is another person that has a string attached to Moscow bombings in 1999. Mister Boris Abramovich

Berezovski wanted to get into power. Even though Yeltsin already announced to his crew about Vladimir Putin, Berezovski wanted the chair more than anyone.

How do you gain a popular vote in Russia. I guess the best strategy is to put down the popular leaders that are already in power.

So he accused the Federal Agency for organizing the bombings. But the chicken **** couldn't come up with enough evidence, but some ****ty movie he made. He ran like a chicken too. Life threats? Get the **** out, the richest alligarh in Russia, who has the balls to take him out?

He ran to another country as fast as his movie became unpopular. You know why?

Because the dumb asshole forgot to do his homework. The agent that they accused on organizing the bombing is general of FSB German Ugrumov. The guy died long before the bombings. So Berezovski took off in a worst shame.

Interesting how Boris Abramovich said that FSB doctored the Hattab's tape, and added the voice over, and extra special effects. The lip synch was the toughest problem to solve, but with the help from Industrial Light and Magic, FSB made Hattab take credit for the bombings.

HOOOOORAY for special effects.

[five-five-sixer]

Hattab's not a Chechen - he's a mercenary. Since the whole world turns their back at Chechens, it's nothing strange they accept help from anyone who offers it. Now I wouldn't be surprised even if they really accepted help from al-quida. Though there's no reason to belive Putin has any proof of such thing.

[RomanS]

Five five

so did the Chechens accepted help from alqueda or not ?

[ikurinturbiini]

Russia will just keep on going and do whatever it finds necessary to provide security for its own citizens....

We all know that. Russian has a long record of providing solid security for its own citizens. And many others, too, whether they want it or not. Once enough of Russian security has been applied, there will be no more of those pesky human rights reports. Russian government also holds an exceptional record of always telling the truth to Russia's citizens. Not biased information or outright lies like these. (http://www.penusa.org/ftw/FTWFTP/APolitkov.htm) I mean, who would believe a lying bitch like her. Well, except these jokers. (http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/eur/russia/journalist-osce-021103.htm)

God have mercy on Russia's citizens. :(

[GazB]

What can change the situation?

1) Withdrow from Chechnya but leave there strong authorities that would be friendly to Russian. I know it's impossible when Putin is in charge of the Kremlin.

or

2) Give Chechens real and not "pseudo-real" autonomy so they can feel they rule in their homeland and not occupants.

The first option just sounds like what is happening now... a chechen is in charge and he was found to be acceptable to the russians and the chechens have voted for him. (If they really objected to him then they coud have exercised their right to not vote and invalidate the election). The forces currently in Chechnia are not that large considering the size and the fact that it was a war zone.

The second option is what they had and the islamic extremists took over control and ruined things for the rest of the population. If they need an outside force to impose law and order the whose forces do you suggest? UN? NATO? US?

So really you are claiming the evil, genocidal Russians should either do what they are doing now, or do what they did before... even though when they did that before it failed so badly and caused problems for everyone involved and their neighbours...

All I can say is I am glad Putin is in charge and not you.


Is there a single Russian organization helping to rebuild Chechen society?


Chechen society was obviously faulty if what happened during their brief independance is anything to go by... would you suggest the US rebuild Nazism in Germany?

I am not suggesting eradication of chechen culture, but it needs some work on its values.


If you don't know what I'm talking about then I will tell you - every lie from Russian government, from Putin's mouth is just another raindrop...


He is a politician... it is his job to lie. Diplomacy is telling the other guy he is a **** in such a nice way that he thanks you for the compliment.


- Kursk (about how long marines were dying and what was the real reason of this accident),


What else should have been done? When they were finally called the western subs took 4 days to get to the site... if they had been called the very second of the explosion it would already have been too late.


Nord-Ost (about why people were dying after action - because doctors didn't have antidote, Putin said they had it),

Most of those who died were put on their backs and either swallowed their tongues or choked to death on their own vomit. To suggest there was an antidote suggests there was a poison... it was a very strong sedative, not a poison.


cases of arrested innocent man like Grigory Pasko and Aleksandr Nikitin (old good KGB methods),

So Putin was the arresting officer? The release without charge of those at Guantanimo suggests detaining in cages on the other side of the world with no council or reason for over a year... they probably weren't innocent but they weren't charged for anything either.


neutralizzation of free media - closed TV stations (old good communist methods),

And when you know the media is government controlled you believe it, or the CNN you get by satellite? Exactly what difference does it really make?


cenzorship (of course Kremlin says it doesn't exist - old good Soviet Union methods)


Welcome to the real world. New Zealands Prime Minister said she thought that if Gore was president that the war in Iraq wouldn't have happened. She was basically made to appologise to a highly offended US government before they'd even talk to her. What is censorship?


But who protect Russian citizens against their own government?

If they are that bad you can vote them out. It seems most Russians approve of what Putin is doing. If we translate that to the US lets just say there are clinton supporters and bush supporters (and those like me who think the US can do better than those two). Clinton was voted in despite being proven to be a liar. Bush is in now... do you think he only ever tells the truth? Do you think someone can get to the position of being where these people are without telling a few lies? Telling some old cow she looks like a 21 year old cause she is loaded and you need campaign funds.

Let me just say that I think Putin is one of the smarter leaders in the world today, and I doubt everything he says is true but I wouldn't trust him if that wasn't the case (if you see what I mean).

[five-five-sixer]

Five five

so did the Chechens accepted help from alqueda or not ?

Most probably not, but we'll never know.

[Kingpin]

Five five

so did the Chechens accepted help from alqueda or not ?

Most probably not, but we'll never know.

What Chechens did in Afganistan in Taliban camps?
Who funded Khattab's training camps in 1996-99?
Who exploded trains in Kislovodsk and Moscow?
Do you know that many of people wanted for terrorism issues are not of Chechen nationality (but most of them are wahhabi muslims)?
Do you even know what is wahabism and where it was created for first time?

You know nothing except some ****.
You eyewitnessed nothing and just repeat after others.
Who are you? Just a pile of junk.

[five-five-sixer]

We all know that. Russian has a long record of providing solid security for its own citizens. And many others, too, whether they want it or not. Once enough of Russian security has been applied, there will be no more of those pesky human rights reports. Russian government also holds an exceptional record of always telling the truth to Russia's citizens. Not biased information or outright lies like these. (http://www.penusa.org/ftw/FTWFTP/APolitkov.htm) I mean, who would believe a lying bitch like her. Well, except these jokers. (http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/eur/russia/journalist-osce-021103.htm)


THAT'S IT!!! rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[five-five-sixer]

Man, how could you forget about fighting terrorists!?!? :bash: :bash: :bash:

[five-five-sixer]

I have a question to those who say they want a debate: Whose truth you belive in?
I give you a fact and you say, it's actually opposite (or vice versa). In such circumstances there's no place for serious discussion.
Somebody says for example "the number of russian troops in Chechnya is increasing". And someone else says that they are actually withdrawing. How do you imagine discussion like that? Why should I belive U, not someone else? Use some arguments!