France's Moussaoui Dilemma

[ed316]

Notebook: France's Moussaoui Dilemma
April 14, 2006 (CBS) This reporter's notebook was written by CBS News producer Laura Haim. Haim also reports as a U.S. correspondent for France's Canal Plus.


The French defense team for confessed al Qaeda conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui — who is a French national of Moroccan origins — is preparing itself for the worst.

For those lawyers who are following the trial in France and Alexandria, the judge is now the only hope to avoid death, because she's clearly against the death penalty.

In Paris, Patrick Baudouin, a lawyer for Moussaoui’s mother, said: "this trial is a theater play. It is staged and I am very pessimistic on the sentence. If Moussaoui is sentenced to death, we will organize with French and European human rights associations a huge movement and protests to appeal it. We will fight the death sentence. French people are against the death penalty in any case."

Already some French officials are confirming that France has always been against the death penalty and will express clearly this position.

Due to the recent economic crisis and demonstrations in the country, the Moussaoui trial has been covered — just at its beginning — by most French media. Then, it was not a story anymore.

"News have been too busy recently in our country to follow up daily the Moussaoui trial, we just heard it through the mother who was all over the French press," says Christine Ockrent, an important French political editorialist.

She acknowledges that, "due to the situation in the poor neighborhoods with a lot of young Muslim people, it's extremely difficult for the French press to report how young French Muslims see Moussaoui."

This week, due to the French holidays, all moving 9/11 testimonies were reported, but not really followed in a huge way.

However, Bernard Zekri, news director of French Television Canal Plus, warned: "Next week everyone will expect the sentence. There’s absolutely no sympathy for a terrorist in France but it will be a huge news if Moussaoui is sentenced to death because the French people are very opposed to any kind of death penalty."

French Consul is inside the courtroom daily with a legal analyst. It sends daily reports to the French Justice Department.

For this trial, French and American people also exchanged some documents. An agreement to cooperate on the Moussaoui case in the fight against terrorism was made between French, Germans and Americans in 2003. And it was emphasized recently by Secretary Condoleezza Rice during her recent trip in Paris.

This was a sensitive issue in this case, according to some reliable sources inside the American intelligence community.

A spokesperson at the French Embassy in Washington, D.C., said: "Official French position is clear. France is against the death penalty each time someone is facing it. This position in the Moussaoui case will be the same. We will fight a death sentence with our European partners opposed to the death penalty. However, an extradition request for Moussaoui is impossible because he did not commit any crime in France.

"So far, Moussaoui has refused several times any help or assistance from the French Embassy. What he will decide at the end of his trial, any request he might have about the death penalty issue will be respected.

"Moreover, we will fight for him like for any Mexican who is facing the death penalty in the United States."



©MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/14/notebook/main1499374.shtml

[sir-chimp]

I sincerely hope with all my heart there ends up being lots and lots of very pissed off French. .

[Miles.]

With all due respect to France, who cares what their stance is on ZM's potential death sentence?

[WarriorMonk]

this is probably the only time I support no death penalty - if Moussaoi fries, he's only a martyr to his twisted jackoffs in al-Qaeda. If he lives, he won't be much inspiration to his wacko friends.

[Laworkerbee]

this is probably the only time I support no death penalty - if Moussaoi fries, he's only a martyr to his twisted jackoffs in al-Qaeda. If he lives, he won't be much inspiration to his wacko friends.

X2 I'd be much happier knowing this guy is someones bitch in prison.

[Miles.]

X2 I'd be much happier knowing this guy is someones bitch in prison.

I'll argue that sending him to prison may be more of a violation of human rights than outright execution. Whatever happens, he's going to die. We might as well do it legally through the death penalty, rather than he suffer rape and beatings and become a true martyr.

[Laworkerbee]

I'll argue that sending him to prison may be more of a violation of human rights than outright execution. Whatever happens, he's going to die. We might as well do it legally through the death penalty, rather than he suffer rape and beatings and become a true martyr.

I don't want him to die with any honor. He doesn't deserve any

[Miles.]

I don't want him to die with any honor. He doesn't deserve any

Agreed.

We disagree in our perspectives. I see more honor in being thrown to the psycho-******ly violent inmates of a Federal Pen and suffering a violent death at the hands of, well, everything he hates America for (homo******ity, torture).

There's no blaze of glory in a needle...

[Laworkerbee]

Agreed.

We disagree in our perspectives. I see more honor in being thrown to the psycho-******ly violent inmates of a Federal Pen and suffering a violent death at the hands of, well, everything he hates America for (homo******ity, torture).

There's no blaze of glory in a needle...

Dang now I see your point! I'm torn :-(

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Apart from the idiot admitting he was involved what evidence is there to suggest that he is a terrorist as opposed to a common criminal?

Because there are people in Gitmo that get released that have no doubt attacked coalition members. Yet ZM is facing the death penelty.

I am all for terrorists to be tried and convicted in a criminal court. But we can't have two different systems for the same type of people.

[Miles.]

I'm torn

Now, that's a humiliating way to go! ;)

[ed316]

Self admission in US courts goes a long way.

[Miles.]

Apart from the idiot admitting he was involved what evidence is there to suggest that he is a terrorist as opposed to a common criminal?

"Ramzi Binalshibh, an al-Qaeda leader now in U.S. custody and an alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, has told investigators that Moussaoui met with him prior to September 11, but Binalshibh chose not to use him."

"He was arrested in August 2001 after taking flying lessons in Oklahoma and then seeking training on a Boeing 747 simulator in Minnesota."

"Moussaoui pleaded guilty in April to conspiring to fly a plane into the White House as part of a wider conspiracy that led to the Sept. 11 attacks. He is the only person charged or convicted in the United States in the attacks."

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

It doesent really answer my question though.

What makes him any different to John Walker or David Hicks for example?

[Miles.]

It doesent really answer my question though.

My apologies, Min.

I didn't fully understand the question...

:hug:

[annihilation]

Not sure whats best life time in jail or death. but can we be certain he would never be released from prison? Who knows what happens 40 years from now.

[Laworkerbee]

The only thing I'm opposed to about keeping convicted terrorists in prison, it gives an excuse for other terrorists to launch attacks to free their comrades.

KSM plotted 9/11 in response to his cousin being held in federal prison here for his part in the 1993 bombing of the WTC towers.

[ed316]

It doesent really answer my question though.

What makes him any different to John Walker or David Hicks for example?

Walker is a US citizen and Hicks is a foreigner and have fewer rights. IIRC.

[Laworkerbee]

Walker is a US citizen and Hicks is a foreigner and have fewer rights. IIRC.

and both don't deserve to be breathing.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Apart from the idiot admitting he was involved what evidence is there to suggest that he is a terrorist as opposed to a common criminal?

Because there are people in Gitmo that get released that have no doubt attacked coalition members. Yet ZM is facing the death penelty.

I am all for terrorists to be tried and convicted in a criminal court. But we can't have two different systems for the same type of people.

Some tidbits from the Wikipedia page on this sh*tbag



French authorities began monitoring Moussaoui in 1996 when they observed him with Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) extremists in London. In 1998, he attended the Khalden training camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalden_training_camp) in Afghanistan, allegedly returning the next year as well. In September 2000, he visited Malaysia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia) and stayed in a condominium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium) where two of the September 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11) hijackers had lived in January of that year. Jemaah Islamiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemaah_Islamiah) leader Riduan Ismauddin (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Riduan_Ismauddin&action=edit) sent cohort Yazid Sufaat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazid_Sufaat) to provide Moussaoui with $35,000 and travel documents in Malaysia in October




From February 26 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_26) to May 29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_29), 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000), Moussaoui attended flight training courses at Airman Flight School (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Airman_Flight_School&action=edit) in Norman, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman%2C_Oklahoma). Despite more than 50 hours of flying lessons, he did not pass and left without a Private Pilot Licence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Pilot_Licence). This school was visited by Mohamed Atta al-Sayed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atta_al-Sayed) and Marwan al-Shehhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_al-Shehhi), who piloted planes into the north and south towers of the World Trade Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center), respectively. Atta and al-Shehhi took their pilot training at Huffman Aviation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_Aviation) in Venice, Florida.
In early August, he allegedly received $14,000 in wire transfers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_transfer) from Ramzi Binalshibh (originating from Düsseldorf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BCsseldorf) and Hamburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg), Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)). This money could have helped him pay for flight training about two weeks later at Pan-Am International Flight Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pan-Am_International_Flight_Academy&action=edit) in Eagan, Minnesota (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagan%2C_Minnesota). On August 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_13), Moussaoui paid $6,800 with $100 bills to receive training in a 747-400 simulator. The simulator that Pan-Am (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Am) uses is operated by Northwest Aerospace Training Corporation (NATCO), a training facility affiliated with Northwest Airlines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines).
The flight instructor assigned to Moussaoui, Clancy Prevost (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clancy_Prevost&action=edit), began to have suspicions about his student. His behavior largely resembled that of other seemingly-wealthy men who had come to the center in the past to receive jumbo jet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumbo_jet) training despite the fact that they'd probably never use it, but some characteristics were unusual. Prevost said later that in pre-simulator instruction, Moussaoui would ask questions that had the right jargon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon) but were otherwise nonsense. He had read through the 747 training manuals, but had a lack of understanding of the plane's systems. Prevost was confused as to why such a person would seek simulator time. After some convincing, his supervisors contacted the FBI, who came to meet with him. (Despite later reports, Moussaoui didn't avoid the training for takeoff and landing.)




On August 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_16), 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001), Moussaoui was arrested by Harry Samit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Samit) of the FBI in Minnesota and charged with an immigration violation. Some agents worried that his flight training had violent intentions, so the Minnesota bureau tried to get permission to search his laptop computer, but they were turned down. Other materials he had when he was arrested included two knives, 747 flight manuals, a flight simulator computer program, fighting gloves and shin guards, and a computer disk with information about crop dusting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_dusting).
Leading in that research was agent Coleen Rowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleen_Rowley) who made an explicit request for permission to search the personal rooms of Moussaoui. This request was first cut down by her boss Deputy General Counsel Marion "Spike" Bowman (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marion_Bowman&action=edit) and later on rejected based upon FISA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act) regulations (amended after 9/11 by the USA PATRIOT Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act)). Bowman afterwards received a well-paid bureau award for "exceptional performance". Several further attempts failed the very same way. As a result the chance of finding early evidence passed unused.
On the whole situation FBI watchdog Sen. Chuck Grassley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Grassley), R-Iowa wrote to FBI Director Robert Mueller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mueller):
If the application for the FISA warrant had gone forward, agents would have found information in Moussaoui's belongings that linked him both to a major financier of the hijacking plot working out of Germany, and to a Malaysian al-Qaida boss who had met with at least two other hijackers while under surveillance by intelligence officials.

He's being tried in a civilian court because he was apprehended by civilian US officials, within the US, and was not an illegal combatant (yet).

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

But would it not be politically advantageous to the US if they tried all the terrorists under same system?

[ed316]

AL-Qaeda plotter Zacarias Moussaoui said he had "no remorse" for September 11, dismissed grief-stricken survivors as "disgusting" and hoped new attacks would bring America more pain.
"It make my day," Moussaoui replied when asked at his death penalty trial for his reaction to the heartbreak of families shattered by the loss of loved ones in the 2001 attacks.
On the witness stand in his death penalty trial, days before jurors will be asked to decide whether he should be executed, Moussaoui said he dreamed that President George W. Bush would release him before he leaves office in 2009.
Amid signs that the jury would be handed the case early next week, he justified Al-Qaeda's strikes with Koranic verses.
In an anti-Israel tirade, he argued the United States is "the head of the snake" that acts as "life support" for "The Jewish State of Palestine." Asked by prosecutor Rob Spencer about September 11, Moussaoui replied quickly, "No regret, no remorse."


http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18813946-401,00.html

[2Sheds_Jackson]

But would it not be politically advantageous to the US if they tried all the terrorists under same system?

Civil prosecution means that there would have to be a functioning government in place, a functioning court system, system of laws etc - when you have war, all of that is in flux. When you nab somebody in the field - who's laws do you then try them under? If we grab them in Iraq or A-stan - do they fall under US law? They're not Americans, they're not in America - they may be Germans fighting where there is no functioning government. If German police nab a German in Germany right after a bombing, I would say that could equal civil prosecution. But an American soldier nabbing a German in A-stan - that's far to f'd up to ever gain traction in a civil court.

War itself is somewhat extralegal. We try to put some rules on it, and subject those fighting to some kid of legal framework -Geneva Conventions etc. - so at least there is some mechanism to try or process them.

But even the GC places requirements on fighters that terrorists are not willing to meet - such as wearing uniforms, not blending in with civilians. The GC provides protection to honorable fighters on all sides, but they deliberately leave those who will operate by no rules outside the framework. Thus, they are "left to the wolves" as it were. If you don't follow the rules, you don't get the GC protections.

>Edit for idiocy (forgot some stuff) - and don't forget that the methods and procedures used in wartime would never, ever stand up in civil court. The court system comes with a set of rules which must be followed - warrants, procedures etc., etc. that are simply not able to be followed in war. Thus, anybody nabbed in wartime would virtually have a built-in get-out-of-jail-free card. "And did Lt. Jones obtain a warrant prior to grenading your bedroom and storming in...no? Case dismissed!"

[Zarathustra]

X2 I'd be much happier knowing this guy is someones bitch in prison.

He's a big boy, and I don't think any prisoner in his right mind would f*ck with an Al-Qaeda member.

[Miles.]

He's a big boy, and I don't think any prisoner in his right mind would f*ck with an Al-Qaeda member.

Umm...

If you didn't know, Americans aren't afraid to "f*ck with" AQ types. i.e. Afghanistan, Iraq, extraordinary rendition, etc.

There are harder individuals than ZM in the US public school system...

[Laworkerbee]

so will he be if he gets sent to prison

Inshallah!!

[WarriorMonk]

I'll argue that sending him to prison may be more of a violation of human rights than outright execution. Whatever happens, he's going to die. We might as well do it legally through the death penalty, rather than he suffer rape and beatings and become a true martyr.

- a terrorist needing human rights???!!!

anyways -

human rights freaks are more likely to jump on the death penalty rather than imprisonment...

[budgie]

this is probably the only time I support no death penalty - if Moussaoi fries, he's only a martyr to his twisted jackoffs in al-Qaeda. If he lives, he won't be much inspiration to his wacko friends.

Ditto. I have a few reasons why he shouldn't be executed. IMO life in prison is a more severe punishment anyway - especially for him.

1) This guy came to America to die - he's been convicted of planning suicide attacks: why give him what he wants?

2) The death penalty not only feeds the Christian Right's fantasies of 'Biblical justice' (eye for an eye, etc...) but also feeds Moussaoi's fantasies of martyrdom

3) Imagine life in a prison full of patriotic American convicts. Surrounded by the infidels sure ain't the Paradise he was looking for

4) On the subject of martyrdom he's more likely to be viewed as a failed martyr - a loser - by his own kind if he serves life in jail.

5) Regardless of what some people here might believe, Moussaoi won't be 'going to Hell'. What, do you think he'll spend eternity being tortured by little red demons with pitchforks in a burning inferno? Grow up.

[budgie]

say what???? sorry no idea what this means

Inshallah means, "God willing" at the beginning or end of a statement.

[Miles.]

You think it's justice that ZM will be raped and murdered in prison? That's exactly what this prick wants, is for corrupt American 'infidels' to take their pent-up anger out on him, so he can die a violent death and be a martyr...

Needle this sack of s.hit and be done with it.

"Human rights freaks will..."
Those 'concerned' with human rights won't give a damn if we let him go, he's already innocent in their eyes.

I try not to be a cold prick, but FVCK HIM AND THE FERRY HE RODE IN ON. If you turn him loose in a prison, he will be dead in 2 seconds.

Don't give him the chance to be a martyr, let him slip away like the unstable toolbag that he is. Jesus, people think prison in the US is like a f.ucking Aruba vacation. HE'S GOING TO BE MURDERED, FOLKS! Why put inmates in a position to commit murder?

Pontius Pilate Syndrome all over this thread...wash your hands while he gets shanked. Some of you people need to pull your head out of your suburban ass and get a clue about the US criminal justice system. He's fuc.ked, no matter what, why give him a reason to be missed?

Life imprisonment???? Don't make me laugh! He'll last just long enough to be shanked, and then the blood will be on some worthless POS's hands.

Budgie, I'm sorry, but your "reasons" that he should be imprisoned are BS. Throw him to the dogs and be a tool the rest of your life.

[budgie]

Very mature post mate.

So throw him to the mob one way or the other? I guess this is the middle ages after all. If it's prison this guy won't be in general population - he'll probably be in solitary and even in general it's more than likely he'll end up with Arab and Muslim sympathisers on the inside.

The difference between life and death (oh, apart from the little red devils with pitchforks) is that the criminal gets the rest of his natural life to consider what he's done and that's a fate worse than death for a man who wanted to die anyway.

[XShipRider]

Very mature post mate.

So throw him to the mob one way or the other? I guess this is the middle ages after all. If it's prison this guy won't be in general population - he'll probably be in solitary and even in general it's more than likely he'll end up with Arab and Muslim sympathisers on the inside.

The difference between life and death (oh, apart from the little red devils with pitchforks) is that the criminal gets the rest of his natural life to consider what he's done and that's a fate worse than death for a man who wanted to die anyway.

Have to agree. As heinous as his crime was(is) he needs to sit in
solitary until nature completes it's never-ending cycle. The best part -
don't allow him anything with which he could take his own life.
Paper clothing, bed covers, etc., nothing he can turn into a garotte
or noose. He can eat with his fingers like the animal he is. Pipe in
sunshine so he's not allowed to leave his 8X8 cell PERIOD!

The martyrdom route has it's own minefield. We'd be seeing posters
of this guy on Al Jazeera with "Kill the Great Satan" posters in the
background. He'd be someone to emulate for the radical imams out
there.

General population would give him, as you pointed out, a sympathetic
ear by some. Whether he'd be killed or not is questionable given the
unconscionable crimes of his prison brethren. This too has it's
drawbacks. The bleeding hearts, of which America is full of, would
decry this as some sort of torture in its own right. They'd be
calling for his release into the general population at some future
date. Hollywood would be banging the drum by releasing a
movie about this mammal.

[Miles.]

So throw him to the mob one way or the other? I guess this is the middle ages after all. If it's prison this guy won't be in general population - he'll probably be in solitary and even in general it's more than likely he'll end up with Arab and Muslim sympathisers on the inside.

The difference between life and death (oh, apart from the little red devils with pitchforks) is that the criminal gets the rest of his natural life to consider what he's done and that's a fate worse than death for a man who wanted to die anyway.

The death sentence, carried out lawfully, is "throwing him to the mob?" It's a legally sanctioned practice. You don't know where he'll end up in prison...but I can tell you he will die a violent death.


Very mature post mate.

Thanks, old fart. ;)

[annihilation]

Hard decision which way to go. Forever locked up or death sentence. Either way he could be seen as some hero to his people. But with death, he is done with and there is no chance of his freedom in the future.

[budgie]

The only thing I'm opposed to about keeping convicted terrorists in prison, it gives an excuse for other terrorists to launch attacks to free their comrades.

KSM plotted 9/11 in response to his cousin being held in federal prison here for his part in the 1993 bombing of the WTC towers.

So they'll stay home if he gets executed will they? Gimme a break.

[roland]

With all due respect to France, who cares what their stance is on ZM's potential death sentence?

And what make you think that anyone cares what's going to happen to Moussaoui ? apart his mum, his lawers that want to make a name and a bunch of media that would always find something to say on anything, I'm pretty sure everybody here think you can do whatever you want of him.
Just don't send him back. Better for him you kill him rather than send him back. Since the man has the french nationality, he is worse than an enemy: he is a traitor.

next, stupid thread, France's dilemna my @ss

[LazerLordz]

Solitary confinement till the end of his natural life. Nuff said.

[Miles.]

And what make you think that anyone cares what's going to happen to Moussaoui ? apart his mum, his lawers that want to make a name and a bunch of media that would always find something to say on anything, I'm pretty sure everybody here think you can do whatever you want of him.
Just don't send him back. Better for him you kill him rather than send him back. Since the man has the french nationality, he is worse than an enemy: he is a traitor.

next, stupid thread, France's dilemna my @ss

My post was in response to the article, nothing else. I realize France is no friend of Islamic terrorists anymore than the US.