Messed Up.

[Apathy]

Were you to glance up from the deserted beach below, you might mistake Tranquility Bay for a rather exclusive hotel. The statuesque white property stands all alone on a sandy curve of southern Jamaica, feathered by palm trees, gazing out across the Caribbean Sea. You would have to look closer to see the guards at the wall. Inside, 250 foreign children are locked up. Almost all are American, but though kept prisoner, they were not sent here by a court of law. Their parents paid to have them kidnapped and flown here against their will, to be incarcerated for up to three years, sometimes even longer. They will not be released until they are judged to be respectful, polite and obedient enough to rejoin their families.

Parents sign a legal contract with Tranquility Bay granting 49 per cent custody rights. It permits the Jamaican staff, whose qualifications are not required to exceed a high-school education, to use whatever physical force they feel necessary to control their child. The contract also waives Tranquility's liability for harm that should befall a child in its care. The cost of sending a child here ranges from $25,000 to $40,000 a year.

Opened in 1997, Tranquility Bay is not a boot camp or a boarding school but a 'behaviour modification centre' for 11- to 18-year-olds. An American Time magazine journalist visited in 1998, and since then no media have been allowed inside. With all access denied, there has been little coverage beyond sketchy reports based on hearsay - even the local community knows almost nothing of what goes on. My discovery of Tranquility Bay came only by accident in 2000, while living nearby, and all my approaches since then were, like every other media request, firmly rejected.

The owner is an American called Jay Kay. He doesn't trust the media, because 'they go for sensationalist stuff. Nothing has really presented things in a way that is factual.' On the other hand, he believes anyone who saw inside Tranquility would support and admire it, and blames criticism on ignorance. So Kay has been in a dilemma. His business is expanding, and he is turning his attention to the UK, for he believes there is a large untapped market of British parents who would ship their children straight off to Jamaica if only they knew about Tranquility. The British government, too, he hopes, might send him children in its care. 'If social services was interested, at $2,400 a month I bet they can't offer our services for that.'

This spring he decided to grant me and a photographer unprecedented, exclusive access. If he didn't like the result, 'Hell will freeze over before anyone gets in here again.'

The first impression once inside Tranquility Bay's perimeter walls is of disconcerting quiet. Students are moved around the property in silence by guards in single file, 3ft apart - a complicated operation, because girls and boys must be kept segregated at all times, forbidden to look at one another.

Tranquility has a language of its own. The vocabulary is recognisable, but its use has been delicately customised, so that boys are 'males', girls 'females', and they are all divided into single-*** 'families' of about 20. The families have names such as Dignity, Triumph and Wisdom, and are led by a staff member known as the 'family mother' or 'father', addressed by the children as Mum or Dad. The 200 staff are all Jamaican.

Along with multiple guards known as 'chaperones', the family mothers and fathers control and scrutinise their children 24 hours a day. The only moment a student is alone is in a toilet cubicle; but a chaperone is standing right outside the door, and knows what he or she went in to do, because when students raise their hand for permission to go, they must hold up one finger for 'a number one', and two for 'a number two'.

Corporal punishment is not practised, but staff administer 'restraint'. Officially it is deployed as the name suggests, to subdue a student who is out of control. However, former students say it is issued more often as a punishment. One explains: 'It's a completely degrading, painful experience. You could get it for raising your voice or pointing your finger. You know you're going to get it when three Jamaicans walk in and say, "Take off your watch." They pin you down in a five-point formation and that's when they start twisting and pulling your limbs, grinding your ankles.'

Source. (http://education.guardian.co.uk/classroomviolence/story/0,12388,987932,00.html)

This sh*t is pretty f*cked up. I mean kids should be disciplined, but not like this.

[Aerosoul]

interesting camp. i would like to go and visit.

[Dalamara]

Sounds like boarding school on steroids.

[digrar]

The only similarity to my boarding school was the wall around the outside.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

WTF? Parents just need to whip of their belts and smack their own kids not send them to ****ing Jamaicans in some defunct hotel? WTF?! is this for real? Thats ****ed up! Sounds like some horror movie. :roll:

[Aerosoul]

WTF? Parents just need to whip of their belts and smack their own kids not send them to ****ing Jamaicans in some defunct hotel? WTF?! is this for real? Thats ****ed up! Sounds like some horror movie. :roll:
this sounds like a place where the wealthiest of America send their kids, because they are "too busy" to make time for them. i suppose the same could be said for any boarding school, too, though.

But this isn't really a place that is comparable to a regular boarding school. This "institution" in Jamaica is very extreme. The only comparison I could make is to a place in Memphis run by religious zealots who believe they can "cure homo******ity" and I know someone who went there. The stories he told me....

[Dalamara]

Yep that's where the part "on steroids" comes in.

[usmajunk]

well, makes sense to me.
I mean, there are some cases where even parents smacking a kid around wont work, and then they even get in trouble for it. Send the brat out to the bay, and straighten them out. Sounds like only for extreme cases, but i mean there is a need for this. As long as the staff doesnt do anything stupid, could work well.

I do wonder, is it a school too?

[digrar]

this sounds like a place where the wealthiest of America send their kids, because they are "too busy" to make time for them. i suppose the same could be said for any boarding school, too, though.



In Australia kids go to boarding school because in the bush there isn't the population base to warrant having a senior high school.
My home town was 110 miles from the nearest small city, our local school went to year 10 and I only had 14 class mates in that last year. So we went to boarding school in our State capital to do years 11, 12 and university.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

WTF? Parents just need to whip of their belts and smack their own kids not send them to ****ing Jamaicans in some defunct hotel? WTF?! is this for real? Thats ****ed up! Sounds like some horror movie. :roll:


Smack em with a belt? sure, but why stop there. How about whip them with the jug cord.

Better yet why not punch them to the ground and then kick the **** out of them?

Have you got kids? Is that what you do to them? Did your father do that to you? If he did then that will make it alright for you to do it to your children right?

****in coward.

[WarriorMonk]

I know some high school kids who could really use some time in that place...

ngati, your point?

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Smack em with a belt? sure, but why stop there. How about whip them with the jug cord.

Better yet why not punch them to the ground and then kick the **** out of them?

Have you got kids? Is that what you do to them? Did your father do that to you? If he did then that will make it alright for you to do it to your children right?

****in coward.
HAHAHAH! ****ing people these days, one their is a BIG difference between smacking you're child on the behind and punching and kicking them. For example my father never once punched or kicked me, and I can remember only several occasions where he smaked me on the head for being a smartass. On the other hand the belt was implemented only when I was being seriuosly rude or bad. And their is nothing wrong with me, I still love and respect my father and am grateful he had the will to discipline me which can't be said for many people these days, I am assuming you are one of them. ****tard.

[Seagreen]

As a parent you hope that you will never need to spank your child, but there comes a time when "reason" doesnt get the job done. As a last option, corporal punishment sometimes just has to be applied.

Time-outs, tone of voice, ect are always the first line of defense. There are times though when the naughty corner just doesnt get it done.

Also, on the note of using a belt or switch from a tree: When the spanking must occur the use of a tool (belt, switch) is better. Why? You can actually strike with far more force with your hand, which by all counts is bad. Inadvertant injury, (because your hand is both heavier and wider dispursing the energy) and mentally for the child, they will associate "the belt" and your "rule" with a reason not to perform their crime again, and not your hand.

Everyone's parenting skills vary, but unfortunately in the last 50 years there has been a steady decline in the parents ability to successfully parent their kids. Economic trends force both parents to work, that means too many "care givers" and "latch-key" kids, and not enough solid parenting from the people that produced them. Maybe that is why there are so many fools running around. We have all seen them, they are more plentiful than the regular kids these days. More dual-parent single income families and a stay at home parent would likely help to resolve many of the social issues, assuming the parents get actively involved in their kids lives.


And yes, Im a parent.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Wow, the coward called me a dirty name. How disconcerting...



If you can't discipline a child without resorting to appyling physical violence then you are weak, lazy and unfit to parent. Or your child has some sort of disorder along the lines of ADD, etc, that neccesitates professional treatment.

Beating a child with tourettes syndrome isn't going to improve their language is it?

The problem is most parents don't receive or seek any training in how to parent. You can't get a firearm of a motor vehicle without a license in most countries but you can crank out as many kids as you want with little or no control.
The upbringing of a child takes an enormous amount of time and effort. Too many parents can't be bothered putting in the effort and resort to the hand or the belt because actually sitting down and working through the issue with the child in a constructive way would take a lot longer.

I fully agree that time in this day and age is at a premium, but that isn't an excuse, let alone a reason to use violence on a child.

And yes I am a parent and I do have experience with a wide variety of different kids and their parents and the worst behaved of them owe it to their parents and the way they were brought up.

Finally their is a direct correlation between physical child abuse and behavioural problems in adult life.

[Miles.]

Great posts NT and Keveaton_05.

[Miles.]

thank you you know my moto "never miss a chance to show off"

Your credentials are in order. "It's not bragging if you can do it."

I'm out of this thread...

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Smacking kids with a belt? Now go and look at the serial killers and rapists who were beaten as children you abuse a child in that manner and you alienate them and stifle there social skills.

Ok so the one time someone hits a kid with a belt that they “deserve” it what happens next time you brake that taboo they stand in front of the telly and out comes the belt

You don’t educate a child by using violence you make sure from a young age you sit them down and explain to them what they did wrong

And as for sending them to this ”camp” I’d be very worried about this if the adults there are only required to be educated to high school level then I would say there not qualified enough in order to properly implement “constraint”

I can think of at least 2 cases were constraint used in the UK lead to people dieing from positional asphyxiation

Oh and before anyone starts with the stupid comments I hold qualifications in
Psychology, sociology and forensics and have spent many hours (which I wished I hadn’t) reading abuse cases and the autopsies of children beaten to death so I do know what I’m talking about

In short physical & ****** abuse of children both physical and psychologically destroys them
Yeah okay all you new age parents know best right. I guess 3/4's of the world children must rapists and serial killers. And ngati or whatever you're name is why don't you stfu and stop calling me a "coward" becasue you don't know me or anything about me so you can't say ****.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

As a parent you hope that you will never need to spank your child, but there comes a time when "reason" doesnt get the job done. As a last option, corporal punishment sometimes just has to be applied.

Time-outs, tone of voice, ect are always the first line of defense. There are times though when the naughty corner just doesnt get it done.

Also, on the note of using a belt or switch from a tree: When the spanking must occur the use of a tool (belt, switch) is better. Why? You can actually strike with far more force with your hand, which by all counts is bad. Inadvertant injury, (because your hand is both heavier and wider dispursing the energy) and mentally for the child, they will associate "the belt" and your "rule" with a reason not to perform their crime again, and not your hand.

Everyone's parenting skills vary, but unfortunately in the last 50 years there has been a steady decline in the parents ability to successfully parent their kids. Economic trends force both parents to work, that means too many "care givers" and "latch-key" kids, and not enough solid parenting from the people that produced them. Maybe that is why there are so many fools running around. We have all seen them, they are more plentiful than the regular kids these days. More dual-parent single income families and a stay at home parent would likely help to resolve many of the social issues, assuming the parents get actively involved in their kids lives.


And yes, Im a parent.
A voice of reason!

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

ok tell me what makes you such an expert on the subject
1) What makes you an expert?
2) Did I ever say I was an expert?
3) If I beleive spanking is compatible with disciplining your children then that's my view, if you don't like it too bad.
4) You don't agree with my view so you try to say I am a "coward" "rapist" and other derogatory terms because you have nothing more intelligent to say to contravene my opinion.

[Miles.]

He can say plenty about you, seeing as his opinion and views are respected, and yours are not.


1) What makes you an expert?
2) Did I ever say I was an expert?
3) If I beleive spanking is compatible with disciplining your children then that's my view, if you don't like it too bad.
4) You don't agree with my view so you try to say I am a "coward" "rapist" and other derogatory terms because you have nothing more intelligent to say to contravene my opinion.

K05 didn't call you any names, and he tried to warn you nicely that you are pissing a great many people off. seventy6er told you to stop attacking respected members. You were warned both nicely, and not-so-nicely.

Have a nice day.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

He can say plenty about you, seeing as his opinion and views are respected, and yours are not.
That was deep. Wow more assholes on here than I originally expected. I stated my view, he started attacking me. So much for respect. I live in Texas and 98 percent of people here are real friendly but you're being an ass.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

1) the degree i hold the masters degree i'm studying & the 10,00 research project i wrote
2) to be fair no but i'm giving you professional point of view your acting as if you know better therefore i'm forced to assume you belive yourself a expert
3) I never called you a coward & if you'd re-read my post i said that a large percentage of serial killers & serial rapists were beaten, to suggest a man i don't know is a rapist is a very serious "offence" which i'd be careful not to make & to suggest that i have nothing more intelligent to say i would if i so wished tie you in circles so tight you wouldn't understand what i was eucating you in till the day you die

in short you sir are an ass

In short I am repeating my self. My view is spanking is an appropriate method of discipline. Beating and spankings are two different things. I never said somebody should beat their children to death, maybe I worded wrong. Maybe I misunderstood you're post or it's intention, but after Ngati's personal attack I wasn't too sure. If we had an mis-understanding, my apologies.

[Miles.]

That was deep. Wow more assholes on here than I originally expected. I stated my view, he started attacking me. So much for respect. I live in Texas and 98 percent of people here are real friendly but you're being an ass.

Is that the first time you've been called names? Deal with it in a respectful manner, especially since he's respected. Ngati T is very blunt, yes, but when you advocate smacking kids around, what is one to think except that you're also of that ilk.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Yeah okay all you new age parents know best right. I guess 3/4's of the world children must rapists and serial killers. And ngati or whatever you're name is why don't you stfu and stop calling me a "coward" becasue you don't know me or anything about me so you can't say ****.

Anyone who advocates violence against anyone weaker than they is a coward. Therefore, ergo, you're a coward.

I don't care to 'know' you after reading your posts of the last couple of days.

This being the internet and all I can pretty much say what I want. The only people who can stop me are the mods.

You don't like it, go **** yourself.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Anyone who advocates violence against anyone weaker than they is a coward. Therefore, ergo, you're a coward.

I don't care to 'know' you after reading your posts of the last couple of days.

This being the internet and all I can pretty much say what I want. The only people who can stop me are the mods.

You don't like it, go **** yourself.
My statements being proven. I tried to explain to you what I meant, but it seems you're content with childish ad hominem attacks. Right back at you.

[CPL Trevoga]

In short I am repeating my self. My view is spanking is an appropriate method of discipline. Beating and spankings are two different things. I never said somebody should beat their children to death, maybe I worded wrong. Maybe I misunderstood you're post or it's intention, but after Ngati's personal attack I wasn't too sure. If we had an mis-understanding, my apologies.

Anrij, I'm with you. Sometimes it's ok to spank children. These guys (Ngati Tumatuengajust) are different culture or they have no common sence.

Ngati, I've heard that in your part of the world , they eat bad childeren. Is it true?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

In short I am repeating my self. My view is spanking is an appropriate method of discipline. Beating and spankings are two different things. I never said somebody should beat their children to death, maybe I worded wrong. Maybe I misunderstood you're post or it's intention, but after Ngati's personal attack I wasn't too sure. If we had an mis-understanding, my apologies.

Let the backtracking begin.

Spanking is generally considered to be done with an open palm, beating is done with a fist or implement such as a belt.

You advocate the beating of children as a form of discipline.

You are a coward.

Its unacceptable to beat soldiers in order to discipline them, at least in western armies, why is acceptable to beat children?

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Is that the first time you've been called names? Deal with it in a respectful manner, especially since he's respected. Ngati T is very blunt, yes, but when you advocate smacking kids around, what is one to think except that you're also of that ilk.
If you can't respect other people and their opinions and if you put word's in their mouths, like he did mine then don't ask or whine about respect from me. I tried to communicate my opinion nicely but no, all he wanted to pointed is that I am a "coward" "asshole" and "****tard" If i think spanking is an appropriate method of discipline then that's my opinion. I didn't start calling him ****tard, ****head or whatever because I don't agree with his opinion. Thats what kids do.

[Miles.]

WTF? Parents just need to whip of their belts and smack their own kids not send them to ****ing Jamaicans in some defunct hotel? WTF?! is this for real? Thats ****ed up! Sounds like some horror movie. :roll:

I don't see spanking anywhere in there, tool.

HE DIDN'T PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH!!! THERE'S YOUR POST, NUMBNUTS.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

yes I agree with you spanking is ok I was smacked as a child and no harm ever came of it however you advocated the use of a belt or other tool that is as most childcare and social work professionals agree beating
Well my like I said my dad used the belt on me several times. But he wasn't crazy or anything, he just told me to turn around and smacked me on the arse 3-4 times. He didn't whip the living **** out of me randomly he did it enough to get his point across.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

I don't see spanking anywhere in there, tool.
I refer you to my other post. I said yes it's partially my fault, in the moment I worded my sentence in not the quite right way. No reason for the "tool", I would like to discuss this in an mature way please.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Anrij, I'm with you. Sometimes it's ok to spank children. These guys (Ngati Tumatuengajust) are different culture or they have no common sence.

Ngati, I've heard that in your part of the world , they eat bad childeren. Is it true?
You're Russian right bro? Yeah you know what I mean. Piss the old man off real bad it's enough for him to motion taking his belt of and you settle down.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Let the backtracking begin.

Spanking is generally considered to be done with an open palm, beating is done with a fist or implement such as a belt.

You advocate the beating of children as a form of discipline.

You are a coward.

Its unacceptable to beat soldiers in order to discipline them, at least in western armies, why is acceptable to beat children?
Please stop using the word beat. Spanking, or "batine" in my language means two things "beating" as in let's beat some people up or "spanking" as in disciplining you're child. Spanking you're child to show them that something they did was wrong you consider those parents cowards? Tell that to the millions of parents who still practice that "traditional" form of behavioral "medicine."

[CPL Trevoga]

with the use of these guys i'm assuming your including me in that let me point out one thig in his first post he suggested the use of a belt to punish a child, in every state of the USA i would assume that this is a criminal offence (in the UK it would be common assualt or assualt accstioning actual bodily harm)

Dude, there are many ways you can influence your child. Sending to boarding school-prison like in Jamaica is messed up.

I'm speaking from personal experience, I'm glad my grand ma wiped my ass. I was a wild child. She did it only when I did something bad.

[Miles.]

I refer you to my other post. I said yes it's partially my fault, in the moment I worded my sentence in not the quite right way. No reason for the "tool", I would like to discuss this in an mature way please.

Was that before you used profanity in your post, or after?

Plus, Ngati responded to your first post using the same type of language you did.

You're a tool.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Anrij, I'm with you. Sometimes it's ok to spank children. These guys (Ngati Tumatuengajust) are different culture or they have no common sence.

Ngati, I've heard that in your part of the world , they eat bad childeren. Is it true?


Wow, so you see beating children as common sense?

What part of the world do I come from toughguy?

Get your tongue any further up his arse and you'll reach the peanuts.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

with the use of these guys i'm assuming your including me in that let me point out one thing in his first post he suggested the use of a belt to punish a child, in every state of the USA I would assume that this is a criminal offence (in the UK it would be common assualt or assualt accstioning actual bodily harm) so for you to suggest cultrial diffrances is wrong
Yeah and what's you're point? I could have told my teachers or friends that my dad had smacked me with a belt and be taken away from my parents, but was I stupid enough to do that? No, because I know my parents cared for me and that I was being rude/a brat etc.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Smack em with a belt? sure, but why stop there. How about whip them with the jug cord.

Better yet why not punch them to the ground and then kick the **** out of them?

Have you got kids? Is that what you do to them? Did your father do that to you? If he did then that will make it alright for you to do it to your children right?

****in coward.
While I did use profanity in my post it wasn't directed at anybody. His post was specifically directed at insulting me. So take as you like it. I am not arguing with you anymore.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

You're Russian right bro?


Ah, we finally get to the common denominator.

And you still haven't answered my question as to whether you have children or not.

[CPL Trevoga]

Wow, so you see beating children as common sense?

What part of the world do I come from toughguy?

Get your tongue any further up his arse and you'll reach the peanuts.

Don't be upset dude, I'm just trying to have a conversation, that's all. In my culture it's ok to spank your kid, in your cultre you send you kids to gulags.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

did she use a belt or a stick? i'm saying that the use of a tool takes it from punishment to assualt

I myself was smacked with a flat hand and i agree no harm done but if my father had used a stick or belt i can tell you now my uncles would have skinned him for it
My grandma smacked me with a wooden spoon when I was 8 and was having a hissy fit knocking stuff over in her kitchen. I stopped doing it because my behing stung.....GET THE POINT? She didn't take the spoon and start tearing meat from bone she smacked me, big ****ing deal! I am over it and looking back I thank her for it!

[Buckeye67]

If you can't respect other people and their opinions and if you put word's in their mouths, like he did mine then don't ask or whine about respect from me. I tried to communicate my opinion nicely but no, all he wanted to pointed is that I am a "coward" "asshole" and "****tard" If i think spanking is an appropriate method of discipline then that's my opinion. I didn't start calling him ****tard, ****head or whatever because I don't agree with his opinion. Thats what kids do.

Some advice that will probably help you in the long run around here (provided you're not banned before you figure it out). Reevaluate the "READY! FIRE! AIM!" method of posting that you seem to use with alarming frequency. It doesn't pay to be a jackass around here - especially to folks like NT who've been around here a long time and are highly regarded by the community.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Don't be upset dude, I'm just trying to have a conversation, that's all. In my culture it's ok to spank your kid, in your cultre you send you kids to gulags.
rofl rofl rofl

[Miles.]

While I did use profanity in my post it wasn't directed at anybody. His post was specifically directed at insulting me. So take as you like it. I am not arguing with you anymore.

Mr. Maturity... rofl rofl

His post was specifically directed at setting you straight, based on your first post. Once you got your ass handed to you, you started reframing your point, i.e. "spanking, not beating", "in my language it means", etc.

You can't argue with anyone in this thread, that's been made clear.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Ah, we finally get to the common denominator.

And you still haven't answered my question as to whether you have children or not.
No I don't what does that matter, were you gonna report me to the police. I was a child once and looking back I beleive my father took the right measures to raise me.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

While I did use profanity in my post it wasn't directed at anybody. His post was specifically directed at insulting me. So take as you like it. I am not arguing with you anymore.

My profanity was directed at your obscenity.

Would you accept being beaten by your father now?

Would you accept being beaten by your boss because you made a mistake?

Is it acceptable for others to beat your children when they make a misbehave?

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Mr. Maturity... rofl rofl

His post was specifically directed at setting you straight, based on your first post. Once you got your ass handed to you, you started reframing your point, i.e. "spanking, not beating", "in my language it means", etc.

You can't argue with anyone in this thread, that's been made clear.
You're still arguing at me not at the subject.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

My profanity was directed at your obscenity.

Would you accept being beaten by your father now?

Would you accept being beaten by your boss because you made a mistake?

Is it acceptable for others to beat your children when they make a misbehave?
Why would my father beat me?
Of course not, two grown men assualting each other is completely different from a parent disciplining their child.
No it's not acceptable for others to beat my children. If they are being complete little brats then use they can restrain them. My family members can deal out punishment to them also, if my son were to start swearing or throwing stuff around the house I would have no objections if my dad or mum was to set him straight.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Don't be upset dude, I'm just trying to have a conversation, that's all. In my culture it's ok to spank your kid, in your cultre you send you kids to gulags.

I'm not upset sport because;

A. You've displayed your ignorance by not knowing where I come from even though you say you do, and,
B. Siding with the coward who advocates beating children.

Contempt is what I'm feeling right now. Not to mention pity.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

the subject is finished in so much as using a object to touch a child in a physical manner is assualt and as such a crime
Not in my house.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

I'm not upset sport because;

A. You've displayed your ignorance by not knowing where I come from even though you say you do, and,
B. Siding with the coward who advocates beating children.

Contempt is what I'm feeling right now. Not to mention pity.
Siding with the person who feels smacking, spanking or in you're word beating hasn't gone "out of style" in many places and cultures because you new age parents and you're shrinks say it's bad.

[CPL Trevoga]

gulags in new zealand ?? damn i thought you were all to busy bothering sheep for that sort of thing

(please dont kill me nagti)

To be fair, there is a lot of child abuse out there. Parents physically harming their childeren and maiming them. Which to me is unnatural. How can you hurt your own flesh and blood?

Ngati, buddy, you're behaving like a spoiled prick. You're from NZ.

[Miles.]

Not in my house.

We know why you're a tool. Your authority figures smacked you around early in life. No need to keep repeating it.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

We know why you're a tool. Your authority figures smacked you around early in life. No need to keep repeating it.
? Right and the personal attacks continue. I am sure you're kids are gonna be a pleasent little bunch.
"johnny sit in the time out circle"
"no! I don't wanna!"
"johnny can you PLEASE sit in the time out circle?"

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

To be fair, there is a lot of child abuse out there. Parents physically harming their childeren and maiming them. Which to me is unnatural. How can you hurt your own flesh and blood?

Ngati, buddy, you're behaving like a spoiled prick. You're from NZ.
x2 I completely agree with you on this.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

No I don't what does that matter, were you gonna report me to the police. I was a child once and looking back I beleive my father took the right measures to raise me.

I was trying to figure out how educated your statements were. Obviously not very.

I wouldn't report you to the police, I'd have you sterilised.


Why would my father beat me?
Of course not, two grown men assualting each other is completely different from a parent disciplining their child.
No it's not acceptable for others to beat my children. If they are being complete little brats then use they can restrain them. My family members can deal out punishment to them also, if my son were to start swearing or throwing stuff around the house I would have no objections if my dad or mum was to set him straight.

Don't you still make mistakes?

Aren't you rude to people from time to time?

Why wouldn't others allowed to discipline your child?

Are you better trained to beat your child than they are



siding with the person who feels smacking, spanking or in you're word beating hasn't gone "out of style" in many places and cultures because you new age parents and you're shrinks say it's bad.

Siding with a coward who's prepared to use physical violence on someone much smaller and weaker than he, because he himself is to ingorant and socially underdeveloped to understand the damage he will cause.

[Miles.]

? Right and the personal attacks continue. I am sure you're kids are gonna be a pleasent little bunch.
"johnny sit in the time out circle"
"no! I don't wanna!"
"johnny can you PLEASE sit in the time out circle?"

@Tool,

I never offered any opinion on my future style of parenting.

I thought that Ngati and K05 had well-written, thought-out posts (in contrast to your profanity-laced endorsement of abuse) and was ready to leave the thread, until you started being a tool to both respected members, and new members.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

How can you hurt your own flesh and blood?


And the backtracking continues.

So you finally figured out where I'm from. Tell me, how many Gulags do we have down here?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

x2 I completely agree with you on this.


WTF!?!?!?!

You advocate taking your belt out and beating your child, but its 'unatural to hurt your own flesh and blood?

Wow, you've just ****ed yourself completely with that one. Well done.

[CPL Trevoga]

I'm not upset sport because;

A. You've displayed your ignorance by not knowing where I come from even though you say you do, and,
B. Siding with the coward who advocates beating children.

Contempt is what I'm feeling right now. Not to mention pity.

No need for pity. Your life experience perhaps slightly different from mine,
may be you were a good child and your parents did not have to disipline you.
My grandma used to wipp my ass, cause I was a bad kid sometimes.


WTF!?!?!?!
You advocate taking your belt out and beating your child, but its 'unatural to hurt your own flesh and blood?


Ngati, you're smart guy. Can't you understand difference between child abuse and asswoop?

Child abuse = ****ed up.
Asswoop = is very effective behaviour modification/punishment tools.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

No need for pity.

Oh, yes there is.

No kid is ever complete well behaved throughout its childhood. But there are many other ways to discipline a child without resorting to violence.

You'll teach the child alright, how it feels to be humiliated, hurt usually without understanding why, dominated, etc.

Nothing good.

Does the USMC beat its recruits?

If not why not?

I mean if it worked for you, why wouldn't it work for them?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Don't ****ing patronise me.

Abuse is abuse.

There is no difference between hitting a kid with a belt to hitting them with a clenched fist.

If its not acceptable to modify an adults behaviour through violence then why should it be acceptable to modify a childs?

If you make a mistake can someone, hey! how about your gunny, come along and teach you a lesson by hitting you?

Why not?

Why is it okay for you to hit your child, or maybe your parents, but not anyone else? Is it somehow better for the child to be beaten by a relative? Is it somehow worse for the child to feel pain and degradation from someone they don't know?

[CPL Trevoga]

Oh, yes there is.
No kid is ever complete well behaved throughout its childhood. But there are many other ways to discipline a child without resorting to violence.

You'll teach the child alright, how it feels to be humiliated, hurt usually without understanding why, dominated, etc.

Does the USMC beat its recruits?

If not why not?

I mean if it worked for you, why wouldn't it work for them?

USMC recruits are adults, beating will not teach recruit leadership values Corps is trying to instill in them. We're talking more about kids. Also probably after child 10, you should use other means of influencing kids.



If its not acceptable to modify an adults behaviour through violence then why should it be acceptable to modify a childs?

Kids sometimes don't know any better, that's why. Certain level of violence is acceptable can be good way to modify behaviour. I'm purely speaking from personal experience. Yes, I got my ass wooped and here I am well adjusted human beign.

I sence a lot of anger in you, man. Get a dummy and go crazy on it. You'll feel better.

[Miles.]

USMC recruits are adults, beating will not teach recruit leadership values Corps is trying to instill in them. We're talking more about kids. Also probably after child 10, you should use other means of influencing kids.

rofl rofl

It's OK to smack developing human beings, but not adults. Wonderful...

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

USMC recruits are adults, beating will not teach recruit leadership values Corps is trying to instill in them. We're talking more about kids. Also probably after child 10, you should use other means of influencing kids.



Kids sometimes don't know any better, that's why. Certain level of violence is acceptable can be good way to modify behaviour. I'm purely speaking from personal experience. Yes, I got my ass wooped and here I am well adjusted human beign.

I sence a lot of anger in you, man. Get a dummy and go crazy on it. You'll feel better.
Summed up my views. You two (ngati and miles) are still ranting on about beatings. Until you accept that disciplining you're child and beating him are two different things their is no point for further discussion.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

rofl rofl

It's OK to smack developing human beings, but not adults. Wonderful...
Why are you still phrasing you're sentence's as if me and Trevolga would mean harm to our children? We already told we think that smacking/spanking/slapping etc. a child in a measured and controlled way is an adaquete means to discipline but going overboard into physical harm, maiming and seriuos mental and pysical damage is not acceptable. Is this so hard to understand or are you just playing dumb?

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

@Tool,

I never offered any opinion on my future style of parenting.

I thought that Ngati and K05 had well-written, thought-out posts (in contrast to your profanity-laced endorsement of abuse) and was ready to leave the thread, until you started being a tool to both respected members, and new members.

rofl rofl rofl

[Miles.]

Why are you still phrasing you're sentence's as if me and Trevolga would mean harm to our children? We already told we think that smacking/spanking/slapping etc. a child in a measured and controlled way is an adaquete means to discipline but going overboard into physical harm, maiming and seriuos mental and pysical damage is not acceptable. Is this so hard to understand or are you just playing dumb?

Yes, it is hard to understand how violence will teach a child anything other than to use violence to achieve a goal/need.

I'm just going by what you yourself have posted...

[Flagg]

Anrij, I'm with you. Sometimes it's ok to spank children. These guys (Ngati Tumatuengajust) are different culture or they have no common sence.

Ngati, I've heard that in your part of the world , they eat bad childeren. Is it true?

I'm from "that part of the world"

Strike One!

[Flagg]

Don't be upset dude, I'm just trying to have a conversation, that's all. In my culture it's ok to spank your kid, in your cultre you send you kids to gulags.

I'm from "in your culture you send kids to gulags."

Strike Two!

[Flagg]

To be fair, there is a lot of child abuse out there. Parents physically harming their childeren and maiming them. Which to me is unnatural. How can you hurt your own flesh and blood?

Ngati, buddy, you're behaving like a spoiled prick. You're from NZ.

Strike three! You're Out!

Take 3 days to ride the pine.

[Flagg]

I'm a relatively new parent.

I have one and another on the way.

Beating kids or repeated smacking of kids = BAD

Here's how I look at it......a light smack can be used to get the undivided attention of a YOUNG child when dealing with potentially life threatening/safety issues like fire.

The use of force to modify behavior or discipline children is patently WRONG.

To add relevency( and add to Ngati's point), if the world's most professional, successful, and respected militaries in the world STOPPED using violence for discipline and bahavior modification long ago, it's safe to say using the same tactics on children is a whole lot of messed up waiting to happen.

Period.

Any more stupidity advocating violence against children and I'll perm ban the lot.

[Apathy]

What did you guys do to my thread?!

:<

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

Yes, it is hard to understand how violence will teach a child anything other than to use violence to achieve a goal/need.

I'm just going by what you yourself have posted...
Violence, violence. No not violence discipline. My great grandfather was disciplined this way, my grandfather was he disciplined my father this way and I will discipline my children this way if I see fit to do so. Whether you think it causes pyscological problems or not I don't care, neither do I care whether you think it is right or wrong.

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

I'm a relatively new parent.

I have one and another on the way.

Beating kids or repeated smacking of kids = BAD

Here's how I look at it......a light smack can be used to get the undivided attention of a YOUNG child when dealing with potentially life threatening/safety issues like fire.

The use of force to modify behavior or discipline children is patently WRONG.

To add relevency( and add to Ngati's point), if the world's most professional, successful, and respected militaries in the world STOPPED using violence for discipline and bahavior modification long ago, it's safe to say using the same tactics on children is a whole lot of messed up waiting to happen.

Period.

Any more stupidity advocating violence against children and I'll perm ban the lot.
I don't think this is a good position. You are saying what many people have been using/use is a bad position period. So you are all right and they are all wrong? I don't think things work that way. And why was Trevolga banned? He didn't do anything except to reply to you're "respected members" posts. :roll:

[Andrija-Sumadinac]

if you read the rules repeated personal insults are something you will get banned for
Tell that to you're friend Ngati.

[Flagg]

I don't think this is a good position. You are saying what many people have been using/use is a bad position period. So you are all right and they are all wrong? I don't think things work that way. And why was Trevolga banned? He didn't do anything except to reply to you're "respected members" posts. :roll:

You advocate the use of force against children that goes beyond a smack.

It may be deemed acceptable in your culture, it certainly isn't in mine or the rest of the west as I know it.

I'm not going to argue pros/cons of the use of force against children.

As mentioned in my previous post, anyone advocating violence/use of force against children will be banned.

You're getting a temp ban.

Why? There are a LOT of impressionable young people reading this forum and I cannot in good faith(as a parent) allow a venue for them to assume the use of force against children is OK.

I'll be happy to share this thread with the mod group to get their opinion.....if they rescind your ban, I'l'l appologize, until then...ride the pine with your buddy