Russian Systema

[Foxbat89]

I did some searches for other threads, so hopefully this isnt a repeat. But i was looking for some good systema vids. Theres already some very very good ones on google videos, but theres one i had about a year ago that i'm trying to re-aquire. If any of the russians here, or anyone else for that matter, knows where i can find some good ones, it would be gladly appreciated. Used to get it from Russian Federation Forces Forum, but we closed that down a while ago.

If anyone else is interested : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1505869179648427725&q=systema&pl=true

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4745651769072134858&q=systema&pl=true

rather good ones.


Fox

[HorrigEn]

Amazing material....thank you
Pls if you run over some other special soviet training post it ASAP :)

[OttawaLoneWolf]

my eyes are open !! this is truly awsome

can u tell us more about systema?

[UNDERDOG1]

I strongly doubt that the "systema" method advised and generally presented is the one used by russian special forces.

The techniques are abosolutely flamboyant, but the pratical value is very, very low.
Resistance to the techniques is none, judging by the vids I've collected (val vasiliev ones) it's a very impratical method, IMHO (don't be offended by my judging it's only a personal opinion)

[Telnyashka]

I strongly doubt that the "systema" method advised and generally presented is the one used by russian special forces.

The techniques are abosolutely flamboyant, but the pratical value is very, very low.
Resistance to the techniques is none, judging by the vids I've collected (val vasiliev ones) it's a very impratical method, IMHO (don't be offended by my judging it's only a personal opinion)

Just curious, not here to argue or anything but what martial arts background do you have to make this assumption?

[UNDERDOG1]

Black belt, ITF tae kwon Do
Black belt, shotokan karate
Muay Thai training
Boxing training
5 years luta livre (no-gi brazilian Jiu Jitsu)
Vale Tudo Training under a Marco Ruas Instructor
2 years training in Progressive Fighting System (kali-JKD)
Full Contact stickfighting (dogbrothers style but with escrima mask not fencing mask).

Some stints as bouncer (a real eye-opener for me).

Please, I do not want to be misunderstood, I'm sure that in the crucible of military training, the systema method would retain their most effective techniques, I haven't stated that systema is bull****.

What I'm saying is tha JUDGING from what I gathered from the web (i.e. various clips and a bunch of vasiliev videos) most of the techniques presented were NOT PRATICAL

some were suicidial at most

-disarming a knife opponent hitting the blade (actually the spine of the blade)
-freeing from a wrist hold scratching the opponent's knuckles on the belt buckle)

And so on.

What I'm saying is that the MAINSTREAM systema method in my humble opinion is a marketing operation, much like mainstream krav-maga.

The military training, I honestly don't know, I suppose it would be more pratical and useful.

[Macabi]

Cool looking self-defence system!

Some moves look much more complicated then they should be, you really need to be an athlete to do some of those moves. Also many moves weren't enough to take some one out, something you will want to do when someone is trying to kill you.

tnx for cool post.

p.s. Check this Krav Maga video out:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4194405724992957591&q=krav+maga&pl=true

Personally I think it's much more to the point than the Systema video's.

[wolfrider]

Although Systema quite popular in Russia its nothing to do with special forces. Most of spetznaz I asked maked lough about it.

[UNDERDOG1]

I supposed it..that prove my point definitely...

[Telnyashka]

Black belt, ITF tae kwon Do
Black belt, shotokan karate
Muay Thai training
Boxing training
5 years luta livre (no-gi brazilian Jiu Jitsu)
Vale Tudo Training under a Marco Ruas Instructor
2 years training in Progressive Fighting System (kali-JKD)
Full Contact stickfighting (dogbrothers style but with escrima mask not fencing mask).

Some stints as bouncer (a real eye-opener for me).

Please, I do not want to be misunderstood, I'm sure that in the crucible of military training, the systema method would retain their most effective techniques, I haven't stated that systema is bull****.

What I'm saying is tha JUDGING from what I gathered from the web (i.e. various clips and a bunch of vasiliev videos) most of the techniques presented were NOT PRATICAL

some were suicidial at most

-disarming a knife opponent hitting the blade (actually the spine of the blade)
-freeing from a wrist hold scratching the opponent's knuckles on the belt buckle)

And so on.

What I'm saying is that the MAINSTREAM systema method in my humble opinion is a marketing operation, much like mainstream krav-maga.

The military training, I honestly don't know, I suppose it would be more pratical and useful.


Thank you for your background. I just wanted to make sure that you were someone who was actually qualified to say what is practical. I myself am a beginner in martial arts (just starting a form of Karate, been doing it for 3 years now).

You are most likely correct. The civilian version of Systema looks like an over-hyped rambo style martial arts used just so they can sell videos. I.E. the mentality of "Spetsnaz use it! so can you!". Most likely, Spetsnaz and other special forces would use mix of different techniques which most probably are designed for their practicality, as opposed to their marketability.

[Azide]

It's probably effective, but an aquired skill that not many people can be taught.

Funny video, fat guy being slaped around :)

[chrisp1j]

I went to several of his lessons. Very interesting. The potential is there for practical defense if you have the time to invest to become good. The knife skills are excellent. It may look max-relaxed, but it can hurt like hell...lol

Chris

[OttawaLoneWolf]

as a martial art " student " and lover on martial art

Black belt in Judo, Green belt in WTF Tae Kwon do, 1 yr free style grappling, 4 month boxing, 3 month capoeria , ( well ! I think I am younger than you guys wink ) and various experience fighting against Hapkido, Karate , jujitsu , wrestling , capoeria fighters ( lost my 3 teeth and many dislocate joints and head injuries, surprise I never break any bones )

I will say " there is no better martial art but better martial artist "
First video is very interesting; many techniques are actually similar to Chinese Kung Fu; however, with Russian uniqueness.
The 2nd video, I think there are similarities with some Japanese and Korean martial art such as Aikido and Hapkido.

[OttawaLoneWolf]

Cool looking self-defence system!

Some moves look much more complicated then they should be, you really need to be an athlete to do some of those moves. Also many moves weren't enough to take some one out, something you will want to do when someone is trying to kill you.

tnx for cool post.

p.s. Check this Krav Maga video out:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4194405724992957591&q=krav+maga&pl=true

Personally I think it's much more to the point than the Systema video's.


maybe people should be a good athlete when they do matrial art. Matrial art requires Heart, Body , SKill. You need three of them.

There is a difference between Combat skill and matrial art. Matrial art is more about fighting but a living style; therefore, can be somehow inpractical. Combat skill is design purly to kill. ( like Pugil Stick )

I am not sure about Krav Maga is a matrial art or a combat skill. I guess I will find out in 3 weeks when I am in Tel Aviv.

[Lokos]

Please, I do not want to be misunderstood, I'm sure that in the crucible of military training, the systema method would retain their most effective techniques, I haven't stated that systema is bull****.


Given your background, what do you think of the five minute video bit starting around the 4:30 mark? Where they actually fight in normal speed, as opposed to slow motion.

Lokos

[Macabi]

maybe people should be a good athlete when they do matrial art. Matrial art requires Heart, Body , SKill. You need three of them.

There is a difference between Combat skill and matrial art. Matrial art is more about fighting but a living style; therefore, can be somehow inpractical. Combat skill is design purly to kill. ( like Pugil Stick )

I am not sure about Krav Maga is a matrial art or a combat skill. I guess I will find out in 3 weeks when I am in Tel Aviv.

I agree with you on the first one.

But Krav Maga isn't a martial art really and not allways a combat sytem either, it's purely self defence.

A civillian Krav Maga can easily be turned into a militairy style one (when it comes to really taking someone out) and some extra assault rifle counters. It's just a matter of extra agression (punches, stabs, kicks, etc.)

I hope you have fun in Tel Aviv, I'm shure you'll like it :)

[UNDERDOG1]

The vid section from 4.30 mark IMHO is pure bull****, military hand to hand combat is much more simple and straightforward than that.

I do not pretend to be muhammad-bruce-fuking-lee, but have you ever tried to spar with combat gear on?

Something like a wesatch with 10 30rd magazines full, hydro bladder, a pistol (unloaded of course) and so on?

You will be clumsy, much more flat-footed and TIRED, trust me, you don't need flip-flops, high kicks (damn with a 6004 on my tight and a subload on the other, kneepads on and heavy boots I barely can lift my leg to do a knee kick..).

There is no better option than trying to spar in full combat gear on to exploit one weaknesses, a real eyeopener, trust me on this one.

[OttawaLoneWolf]

The vid section from 4.30 mark IMHO is pure bull****, military hand to hand combat is much more simple and straightforward than that.

I do not pretend to be muhammad-bruce-fuking-lee, but have you ever tried to spar with combat gear on?

Something like a wesatch with 10 30rd magazines full, hydro bladder, a pistol (unloaded of course) and so on?

You will be clumsy, much more flat-footed and TIRED, trust me, you don't need flip-flops, high kicks (damn with a 6004 on my tight and a subload on the other, kneepads on and heavy boots I barely can lift my leg to do a knee kick..).

There is no better option than trying to spar in full combat gear on to exploit one weaknesses, a real eyeopener, trust me on this one.


I do ! and what u say is true ! Video sent !

[OttawaLoneWolf]

I agree with you on the first one.

But Krav Maga isn't a martial art really and not allways a combat sytem either, it's purely self defence.

A civillian Krav Maga can easily be turned into a militairy style one (when it comes to really taking someone out) and some extra assault rifle counters. It's just a matter of extra agression (punches, stabs, kicks, etc.)

I hope you have fun in Tel Aviv, I'm shure you'll like it :)


I am sure I will !

[Lokos]

I do not pretend to be muhammad-bruce-fuking-lee, but have you ever tried to spar with combat gear on?

Something like a wesatch with 10 30rd magazines full, hydro bladder, a pistol (unloaded of course) and so on?

You will be clumsy, much more flat-footed and TIRED, trust me, you don't need flip-flops, high kicks (damn with a 6004 on my tight and a subload on the other, kneepads on and heavy boots I barely can lift my leg to do a knee kick..).


Whilst you have a point, I don't think I was asking about the feasibility of this martial art when one is burdened by a full combat load. I was inquiring as to your critique of the 4:30+ part of that video based on what was seen: men unburdened by gear.

To my untrained eye it seemed that they exhibited some very good high kick counters, not to mention interesting techniques for fighting multiple opponents.

Lokos

[CQB_Operator]

The first video is quiet interresting, nice historical footage!!!

[Killtokk]

Krav Maga is a very good defense system, Kali too, and every training system by MONI AIZIK. like his SURVIVAL COMBAT, etc.

[Foxbat89]

yeah, i posted both vids for a reason. The first shows the more historically famous systema while the 2nd shows the commercial hyped systema. And shows the differences in the two.


As for the top one, i've seen other videos from RFF of when the russian army used to just take prisoners and give them knives and have them fight the spetznas soldiers, and the soldiers kicking the living **** out of them. Theres some other vids that i'll post in a sec that have interesting points to em. And also look stupid at points as well and show the idiot look of some of the commercial systema.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4471313984795358446&q=systema&pl=true



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=827877829185720919&q=systema&pl=true

This one is just...wtf? i mean, honestly.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4782614389622826842&q=systema&pl=true



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5836395054381037168&q=systema&pl=true
thats a knife defense one



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5511250819135792955&q=systema&pl=true
another training class

[tobigforyou]

I perconaly wouldnt recomend Crav Maga. I'am a faithfull Gracie Jiu-Jitsu(BJJ) practioner all my life and i wouldnt trade it for the world. i recomend you start Jiu-jitsu instead of krav maga. i've been up against krav maga guys and once i took them to the ground there goes the "punch to the balls" and all that stuff, for me it was simply a matter of choking and breaking things at my leasure(but i'am a nice guy so i let him tap lol) i suggest if you truly want to be the best...cross train, no one martial arts is the best, take mma(alot of JJ in it.) but if you want to be more traditional take JJ.

[Javehn]

I perconaly wouldnt recomend Crav Maga. I'am a faithfull Gracie Jiu-Jitsu(BJJ) practioner all my life and i wouldnt trade it for the world. i recomend you start Jiu-jitsu instead of krav maga. i've been up against krav maga guys and once i took them to the ground there goes the "punch to the balls" and all that stuff, for me it was simply a matter of choking and breaking things at my leasure(but i'am a nice guy so i let him tap lol) i suggest if you truly want to be the best...cross train, no one martial arts is the best, take mma(alot of JJ in it.) but if you want to be more traditional take JJ.


I would like to see you taking someone on the street down and "ground and pound" him in mount position , or put him in mate lion . I can assume his bodies with knifes wouldn't just stand there and watch you do this .

Krav Maga is street oriented method (and it is not martial art) , down to very practical you can do in the street , against knife , against multiply attackers and all that . You can save your BJJ for the ring , where it belongs .

Plus this thread is old as internet . Double You Tea Eff , mate .

[tobigforyou]

you dont get it, if you go against 4 guys that's down right stupidity, if a group of guys have nkives it wouldnt blame a guy for running away, that's probably the smartest thing hell do. but even a crav maga guy will get statabed, one distracts him and his buddy jabs his knike on your back...not fun, but look if you thikn Jiu-Jitsu doesnt work on the streets here watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8eITCJaiKU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhTo7xErnnw

SIZE DOENST MATTER:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvTkdI4GL5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL3JZUm0i2E

http://video.google.com/url?docid=-5001860398129506613&esrc=sr9&ev=v&q=gracie+jiu-jitsu&vidurl=http://video.google.com/videoplay%3Fdocid%3D-5001860398129506613%26q%3Dgracie%2Bjiu-jitsu%26hl%3Den&usg=AL29H20uiGOcFoDBgrCgyJjS-i_IpWUqvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ-5g7qO1Wo

[M4ko]

The vid section from 4.30 mark IMHO is pure bull****, military hand to hand combat is much more simple and straightforward than that.

I do not pretend to be muhammad-bruce-fuking-lee, but have you ever tried to spar with combat gear on?

Something like a wesatch with 10 30rd magazines full, hydro bladder, a pistol (unloaded of course) and so on?

You will be clumsy, much more flat-footed and TIRED, trust me, you don't need flip-flops, high kicks (damn with a 6004 on my tight and a subload on the other, kneepads on and heavy boots I barely can lift my leg to do a knee kick..).

There is no better option than trying to spar in full combat gear on to exploit one weaknesses, a real eyeopener, trust me on this one.

Russians have always carried less gear then westerners, and still do. Effectivnes of those moves seems very practical, smooth, quick without any extra useless bs. Even with your background you dont seem to understand it.
Suicidal attacks is what Russians have always done, eg watch spetcnaz training video posted not long ago. Hitting a knife without substantialy injuring self is nothing suicidal when you surpise the enemy by attacking him that way and come out unharmed. You attack the enemy in most unexpcted way, something that many in the west have forgotten about with their preoccupied lives.



EDIT: Systema translates into system in english.
Systema strong.