Semper Fi

[California Joe]

For James, TP and the rest of the "Devil Dogs"


Return of the Marines
All-American warriors in Iraq.

By W. Thomas Smith Jr.

Beginning this month, leathernecks from the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force will return to Iraq, replacing elements of the Army's 82nd Airborne Division. The return of the Marines is surely bad news for those desperate to undermine the liberation of Iraq.

Not to take anything away from the U.S. Army — its soldiers have performed magnificently, and will no doubt continue to do so — but America's enemies have a particular fear of U.S. Marines.

During the first Gulf War in 1991, over 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were deployed along the Iraqi-Kuwaiti coastline in anticipation of a landing by some 17,000 U.S. Marines. Terrified by what they had been taught about the combat prowess of Marines, the Iraqi soldiers had nicknamed them "Angels of Death." The moniker — first published by Pulitzer-winner Rick Atkinson in his best-selling Crusade — carried over into the second Gulf war, last year, as the 1st Marine Division swept across the Iraqi plains. Attacking American forces were unsettling enough, but reports of the seaborne "Angels of Death" being among the lead elements were paralyzing to many Iraqi combatants.

Despite less armor than other American ground forces, the Marines were among the first to fight their way into Baghdad. And when intelligence indicated that foreign troops were coming to the aid of Iraqi diehards, Marine Brig. Gen. John Kelly stated, "we want all Jihad fighters to come here. That way we can kill them all before they get bus tickets to New York City."

Typical Marine bravado, some say. But it works.

Best-selling author Tom Clancy once wrote, "Marines are mystical. They have magic." It is this same magic, Clancy added, that "may well frighten potential opponents more than the actual violence Marines can generate in combat."

Fear of Marines is not a new phenomenon, nor is it unique to Iraqi soldiers.

Established in 1775, the U.S. Marine Corps came of age in World War I during the 1918 Chateau Thierry campaign near the French village of Bouresches. There, Marines assaulted a line of German machine-gun nests on an old hunting preserve known as Belleau Wood. The fighting was terrible. Those Marines who weren't cut down by the enemy guns captured the nests in a grisly close-quarters slugfest.

The shocked Germans nicknamed their foes, teufelhunden (devil dogs).

"Marines are considered a sort of elite Corps designed to go into action outside the United States," read a German intelligence report following the battle. "They consider their membership in the Marine Corps to be something of an honor. They proudly resent any attempts to place their regiments on a par with other infantry regiments."

Twenty-four years later as the 1st Marine Division was steaming toward Guadalcanal, a Japanese radio propagandist taunted that which the Japanese soldiers feared most. "Where are the famous United States Marines hiding?" the announcer asked. "The Marines are supposed to be the finest soldiers in the world, but no one has seen them yet?"

Over the next three years, Marines would further their reputation at places with names like Tarawa, Saipan, and Iwo Jima.

That reputation carried over into the Korean War.

"Panic sweeps my men when they are facing the American Marines," confessed a captured North Korean major. It was a fear echoed by his Chinese allies. In late 1950, Chinese premier Mao Tse Tung put out a contract on the 1st Marine Division. The Marine division, according to Mao in written orders to the commander of the Chinese 9th Army Group, "has the highest combat effectiveness in the American armed forces. It seems not enough for our four divisions to surround and annihilate its two regiments. You should have one or two more divisions as a reserve force."

Though costly for both sides, the subsequent Chinese trap failed to destroy the 1st Marine Division.

U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Frank Lowe later admitted, "The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marines. Lord, how they could fight!"

Over a decade later, Marines were the first major ground combat force in Vietnam. Army Gen. William C. Westmoreland, who commanded all American military forces in that country, conservatively stated he "admired the élan of Marines." But despite the admiration, some Army leaders found their equally proficient units wanting for similar respect.

In 1982, during the invasion of Grenada, Army General John Vessey, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, telephoned one of his officers and demanded to know why there were "two companies of Marines running all over the island and thousands of Army troops doing nothing. What the hell is going on?"

The reputation of Marines stems from a variety of factors: The Marine Corps is the smallest, most unique branch of the U.S. armed forces. Though it is organized as a separate armed service, it is officially a Naval infantry/combined-arms force overseen by the secretary of the Navy. The Corps' philosophical approach to training and combat differs from other branches. Marine boot camp — more of a rite-of-passage than a training program — is the longest and toughest recruit indoctrination program of any of the military services. Men and women train separately. All Marines from private to Commandant are considered to be first-and-foremost riflemen. And special-operations units in the Marines are not accorded the same respect as they are in other branches. The Marines view special operations as simply another realm of warfighting. Marines are Marines, and no individual Marine or Marine unit is considered more elite than the other.

Consequently, newly minted Marines believe themselves to be superior to other soldiers, spawning understandable resentment from other branches.

But do Marines actually fight better than other soldiers? Rivals argue it's not so much their ability to fight — though that's never been a question — but that Marines are simply masters in the art of public relations. President Harry Truman once stated that Marines "have a propaganda machine that is almost equal to Stalin's." Fact is, while other armed services have lured recruits with promises of money for college, "a great way of life," or "being all you can be;" the Marines have asked only "for a few good men [and today, women]" with the mettle to join their ranks.

Not surprisingly, there have been numerous unsuccessful efforts — primarily on the part of some Army and Navy officers — to have the Corps either disbanded or absorbed into the Army or Navy. Most of those efforts took place in the first half of the 20th Century. But even after the Marines' stellar performance in World War II, Army General Frank Armstrong proposed bringing them into the Army fold and condescendingly referring to the Corps as "a small bitched-up army talking Navy lingo."

As late as 1997, Assistant Secretary of the Army Sara Lister took aim at the Marines. "I think the Army is much more connected to society than the Marines are." Lister said before an audience at Harvard University. "Marines are extremists. Wherever you have extremists, you've got some risks of total disconnection with society. And that's a little dangerous."

Of course, the Commandant of the Marine Corps demanded an apology. Lister was fired. And Marines secretly said among themselves, "Yes we are extremists. We are dangerous. That's why we win wars and are feared throughout the world."

Despite its detractors, the Marines have become a wholly American institution — like baseball players, cowboys, and astronauts — in the eyes of most Americans. Marines indeed may be extreme, but America loves them, extremism and all. And fortunately for America, her enemies in the war against terror will continue to shudder upon hearing, "the Marines have landed."

[Trigger]

Great post!
woot

[Mechanical Ambush]

the Corps as "a small bitched-up army talking Navy lingo."

My words exactly! :roll:

[Uncle Sam]

I was in the Army, but have much respect for the Marines.

That being said...My unit within the 82nd Airborne always kicked the Marines a**es whenever they "trained" with us. ;)

[JMooch]

If we're such a "small bitched-up army", how come we supply 46% of the ground forces for most conflicts for less than 12% of the DoD budget.
Our battle record speaks for itself.
Semper F**king Fi,
Mooch

[Kitsune]

Marines are simply masters in the art of public relations

Perhaps this is not entirely wrong. For example here in Germany, the Belleau Woods Story is not widely known...if at all. The Marines are mainly the ones, who remember it.

Perhaps I get flamed for it but...during WWII German troops did not think highly of American infantry. Germans seemed more to see the ample supplies and the excellent American artillery as the US armies strong points. US Infantery was regarded as second class...(possible exceptions are the Airbornes and Rangers).
If there is truth to it, it would explain, that the Marines stick out.

But feel free to dismiss it as German arrogance.

[FallenAngel]

If we're such a "small bitched-up army", how come we supply 46% of the ground forces for most conflicts for less than 12% of the DoD budget.
Our battle record speaks for itself.
Semper F**king Fi,
Mooch

Right on Mooch. The Corps is half the size of the army, but only gets 1/5 the funds. The Sea Knights and AAVs Marines ride into combat are 30 years old. The entire Marine corp has less tanks than one Army division...yet they kicked just as much ass in GWII as the 3rd ID did- more, if you consider the house to house fighting the Marines did in Basra, Nasaharya, etc.


Perhaps I get flamed for it but...during WWII German troops did not think highly of American infantry. Germans seemed more to see the ample supplies and the excellent American artillery as the US armies strong points. US Infantery was regarded as second class...(possible exceptions are the Airbornes and Rangers).
If there is truth to it, it would explain, that the Marines stick out.

I would have to agree. Granted it's a generalization, but your average German soldier was "better" than his English, American or Russian counterpart. THe Germans had something like a 15:1 kill ratio on the Eastern front and were damn efficicent. German tanks were many times better than American and British designs.

I think Germany was (again, generally speaking) beaten by quantity over quality.

[Cpl Stumps]

Kitsune
Not to flame you, but U.S. Marines never saw Europe during WWII, we were island hopping across the Pacific where we served with great honor.

If the Marines speak highly of themselves it's because they always get the job done yet always find themselves facing elimination or being folded into another service. I'm not saying that our sister services don't get the job done, but Marines have a history, we belong to something. It comes out in the way Marines describe themselves. The other day I saw a sticker on the back of car that said "My daughter serves in the U.S. Air Force" When I got out of Boot I remember the stickers they had at MCRD they said "My Son/Daughter is a U.S. Marine." It speaks to our mindset that we don't serve in the Marines, we are Marines.

As to Bellau Woods, some might not have heard of it, I can't off the top of my head name any famous battles won by the British Royal Marines. But I'm sure they had many and that they can rattle them off just as easily as I can rattle off the many battles that U.S. Marines engaged in as can any soldier from the 82nd Airborne or the Rangers can rattle off their units greatest achievements. Every unit in the world that has history passes on their units history to the new crop of recruits, it creates a sense of belonging when you first come in and it sets a standard of achievement.

Just my 2 cents

[Johnnyringo]

Hey Uncle Sam, I'd love to hear the story of how your unit "kicked the Marines ass" when you trained with them... Where was that exactly?

[Maj C]

Marines are simply masters in the art of public relations

Perhaps this is not entirely wrong. For example here in Germany, the Belleau Woods Story is not widely known...if at all. The Marines are mainly the ones, who remember it.

Perhaps I get flamed for it but...during WWII German troops did not think highly of American infantry. Germans seemed more to see the ample supplies and the excellent American artillery as the US armies strong points. US Infantery was regarded as second class...(possible exceptions are the Airbornes and Rangers).
If there is truth to it, it would explain, that the Marines stick out.

But feel free to dismiss it as German arrogance.

Well, I'm sure the Germans wouldn't be too keen on talking about a defeat - especially since it was probably a minor battle for Germany at the time but was the bloodiest in USMC history to that time. We teach it to new Marines as a way of preserving institutional memory and esprit de corps. I'll have to ask the Bundeswehr LtCol and SgtMaj that just came aboard here. A Marine of German descent is already calling him OberSturmBannfuhrer...

The USMC always cashes in on its reputation as a force mulitplier - whether it's true or not it is why Gen Jones wanted distinctive uniforms to distinguish Marines. It was said that in Korea - the NKPA and PLA referred to Marines as Cloth top Yellow Legs referring to their camo helmet covers and leggings. In Somalia they called Marines the Black Boots because the MEU that first landed didn't have desert boots. In Haiti they called Marines the white sleeves because we roll our sleeves up inside out. If our appearance and reputation is enough to convince people to surrender or run away then I'm all for it...but we better be able to back it up in case someone calls our bluff.

[Guttorm]

Thats actually the first "Long post" I've ever botherd to read... :)

Great post!

[Mechanical Ambush]

Semper F**king Fi, Mooch


Thats the only thing I like about you Jarheads................lotsa ATTITUDE!

[WARPIG]

I've trained with Gyreens on more than one occasion. I have awsome respect for Devil Dogs. I don't see any mystique or magic but I do appreciate the Corps' dedication to tradition. The USMC's love of the grunt are what make them so feared. Much like US Army Armor is known for it's supreme power, Marines are a mass of trained infantry. A Marine infantryman has the same mindset that a US Army Ranger does. The Corps' "fear nothing" and "do anything" attitude carries into the support elements as well. Although the US Army is bigger and more well rounded, the Corp will always be the thug that US armed forces send in to do the dirty work. US Army infantry units become more and more technically sound and tactically smart. Marines get a few more toys to break and if they can't shoot with it.. well, you can always bludgen a man to death with it.

The difference can be better illustrated by this analogy. US Army is a boxer.. technically sound, highly skilled, outstanding endurance, tuff but avoiding injury while inflicting pain where it counts is the best tactic. A big show of force followed by smart punches to cripple the enemy. The smart punches can sting or knock your socks off. You blink once and you'll be counting lights from the floor.
The USMC is like that bruiser or brawler. No less of a professional than the boxer, but very different tactically. The show of force is no show... and you can hit them as much as you want. It will probably piss them off. They will trade punch for punch and if they don't actually hit harder.. don't bet on not getting your nose or ear bitten off. At the end of the fight, the bruiser will spit a few of his own teeth out, smile.. and look for the next guy.

Both of them will knock your a55 out. A boxer(ARMY) will hope you think he is week, wear you down, out class you, or knock you out and still make you think it was luck. In the mean time.. he has plenty more for the next guy. The brawler(USMC) will let you know your getting your a55 kicked before, during, and after. He will go out of his way to make sure that not only does he kick your a55, but you have a damn scar or a limp to remember it by.

[WolverineBlue]

LOL WARPIG

[USMarine3521]

great post!!

[zenmaster]

Nice analogy, Pig. The technical and job expertise is the same from grunt to grunt in the Army and Marines. The difference lies in the attitude of the support elements. Whereas a convoy of Army support soldiers will have an infantry or MP guard; a Marine convoy of guys doing the same jobs will have machine guns sitting on top of pallets on hummer roofs- doing their own security with the few tools they have on hand. Different strokes for different folks.

[Dennis G]

good read

[Dennis G]

yeah thats a good analogy warpig

[Uncle Sam]

Hey Uncle Sam, I'd love to hear the story of how your unit "kicked the Marines ass" when you trained with them... Where was that exactly?

Remember I have much props for the Marines.

They would come to Bragg sometimes and train with us, also we would go to Lejune, and when we smoked 'em, their higher ups would come over to us and start setting off our MILES gear, and say *beep* "You're dead", walk to another soldier...*beep* "Your'e dead"...etc...We were like "What the Fu** !!! I guess they didn't hear all the beeping in the woods from all the Marines we waxed. My unit was the shizznit !! I'm just givin' them a hard time...No offence, ok.

But we had some great times with them, great bunch of guys.

[TriggerPuller]

Ooh-Rah!! damn proud to be a Marine........ALWAYS!!!! And I like to bite ears off,really fuucks withs your opponents head to say the least!

TP

[farmgirl]

Ooh-Rah!! damn proud to be a Marine........ALWAYS!!!! And I like to bite ears off,really fuucks withs your opponents head to say the least!

TP

Good to see you TP... where you been keepin' yourself lately? missed ya :hug:

[el borracho]

I would say that most of their effectiveness comes from the intense "esprit de corps" that is instilled in them early on. This totally contradicts the whole "Army of One" b.s. Or for us in the Air Force "get the job done so someone with a higher rank than you can take all of the credit"... :-*$ anyway...When you give them that 'can do' kinda attitude then stuff gets done. In a way it is propaganda, but more or less just a form of encouragement that yields very positive results. Theoretically any one soldier and one marine could have similar abilities, but since the marine operates in a "marine" mindset then he (or she) appears superior. Put a whole group of them together then see what happens... :fork:

[JMooch]

"They would come to Bragg sometimes and train with us, also we would go to Lejune, and when we smoked 'em"

Everyone has stories like this. If I had a dollar for everytime units I was with b**chslapped 82nd units in the field I could retire.

"I would say that most of their effectiveness comes from the intense "esprit de corps" that is instilled in them early on."

I would say that this is most accurate statement I have read here. But the "espirit de corps" doesn't just stop after Boot. It is something that is reinforced everywhere you go during your career.

As a history major, I get a kick out of talking to Veterans (that's right written with a capital V, they deserve it!) of the Island Hopping Campaign, Chosin battles, Hue City and Khe Sahn, etc. They all say the same thing, "I was just doing my job" and "I was just looking out for my buddies". I understood it but the point was driven home after I got back from OIF.

History is part of what makes Marines, Marines.
We honor our past and it helps us accomplish the mission because have the standards set by previous Marines in battle and we measure ourselves against those standards.

I'm not sure if this reads the way I intended. Some will understand, others won't have a clue.
Semper,
Mooch

[bikewrench]

URAH!

[James]

Thanks for the post, Joe.

Semper Fi, brothers. ;)

[mocking_loudly_died]

Thanks for the post, Joe.

Semper Fi, brothers. ;)

Hey James, are you still in the Marines?
(just curious).

[James]

Thanks for the post, Joe.

Semper Fi, brothers. ;)

Hey James, are you still in the Marines?
(just curious).

I am not. I left active duty in 1997.

[Uncle Sam]

"They would come to Bragg sometimes and train with us, also we would go to Lejune, and when we smoked 'em"

Everyone has stories like this. If I had a dollar for everytime units I was with b**chslapped 82nd units in the field I could retire.

"I would say that most of their effectiveness comes from the intense "esprit de corps" that is instilled in them early on."

I would say that this is most accurate statement I have read here. But the "espirit de corps" doesn't just stop after Boot. It is something that is reinforced everywhere you go during your career.

As a history major, I get a kick out of talking to Veterans (that's right written with a capital V, they deserve it!) of the Island Hopping Campaign, Chosin battles, Hue City and Khe Sahn, etc. They all say the same thing, "I was just doing my job" and "I was just looking out for my buddies". I understood it but the point was driven home after I got back from OIF.

History is part of what makes Marines, Marines.
We honor our past and it helps us accomplish the mission because have the standards set by previous Marines in battle and we measure ourselves against those standards.

I'm not sure if this reads the way I intended. Some will understand, others won't have a clue.
Semper,
Mooch

Your'e just f'n jealous..You came with mouths-a-flappin' and you got your a**es handed to you, and you went home with your tail between your legs...Typical Marine ...Like I said I have much respect for the Marines, except for the ones who can't back up all the sh*t they smack...JMooch

[James]

edit

[JMooch]

"Your'e just f'n jealous..You came with mouths-a-flappin' and you got your a**es handed to you, and you went home with your tail between your legs...Typical Marine ...Like I said I have much respect for the Marines, except for the ones who can't back up all the sh*t they smack...JMooch"

Since you're a retard, I'll make this easy for you since you can't read. I said everyone has a story about "how my unit kicked this other units ass". Regardless, I'm not going to acknowledge your stupidity with anything more than what it takes to type this. You're an embarrassment to the Army. I have worked with Army SOF so many times and have so many friends in that community that I would doubt you are anyway associated with it. With that said, it's people like you that are the reason that the non-SOF Army has a reputation lower than whales**t.
BTW, don't bother responding cause I won't after this post. You'll just be talking to yourself.
Semper Fidelis,
Mooch
PS I can back up anything I say, I've proven myself to my peers of which you are not. I have their respect, I don't need some internet punk's respect. Conversation over tough guy.

[Beowulf]

Uncle Sam's Pissed, I know your creds, do not respond to the above post.
This is a good article. Let's not get off track.

Jmooch, PM me your creds.

[fdt]

I would have to agree. Granted it's a generalization, but your average German soldier was "better" than his English, American or Russian counterpart. THe Germans had something like a 15:1 kill ratio on the Eastern front and were damn efficicent. German tanks were many times better than American and British designs.
I think Germany was (again, generally speaking) beaten by quantity over quality. Where did You take this 15:1 kill ratio on Eastern Front... from?? :cantbeli: Even if You count in the einsatzgruppen (If You know who were they) "work" in, there couldn't be such a high ratio.... unless You add in the Beria boys victims to the German account. Hey Russians, some figures for our colleague please... What are Your accounts?

[Johnnyringo]

Isn't it funny how these threads always seem to end up this way!....

Come to think of it, I've instigated my fair share of these types of arguments anyway.... Still funny as hell though.

[California Joe]

Hell, I simply posted the article cause I thought James, TP, Mooch, JohnnyRingo and some of the other Marines would get a kick out of it. Wasn't intended to start a pissing contest.

[Uncle Sam]

Hell, I simply posted the article cause I thought James, TP, Mooch, JohnnyRingo and some of the other Marines would get a kick out of it. Wasn't intended to start a pissing contest.

It's all better now. Everything is Kosher. Sorry all....

[mocking_loudly_died]

We paid for blood!
Fight, fight, fight.

[Uncle Sam]

We paid for blood!
Fight, fight, fight.

sorry to dissapoint...here, :bash: just for you...

[mocking_loudly_died]

We paid for blood!
Fight, fight, fight.

sorry to dissapoint...here, :bash: just for you...

Bah, your emote attack is no match for my text based indifference.

[Uncle Sam]

We paid for blood!
Fight, fight, fight.

sorry to dissapoint...here, :bash: just for you...

Bah, your emote attack is no match for my text based indifference.

hell hath no fury like a mocking scorned... :)

[JMooch]

Yep, sorry to disappoint y'all. Who says Rangers and Marines can't play well together?
RLTW!
S/F
Mooch

[mocking_loudly_died]

I’m just being a rude Australian with an inferiority complex. :D ;)

[hank]

Kitsune
Not to flame you, but U.S. Marines never saw Europe during WWII, we were island hopping across the Pacific where we served with great honor.


Correct me if I am wrong - but Kitsune refers to WWI where the Germans first called the Corps "teufel huenden" or devil dogs. This is what I rememebr reading - might be wrong. Certainly Marines did not fight in Eurpoe in WWII - yet the Teufel Huenden is German.

hank

[James]

Marines are simply masters in the art of public relations

Perhaps this is not entirely wrong. For example here in Germany, the Belleau Woods Story is not widely known...if at all. The Marines are mainly the ones, who remember it.

Perhaps I get flamed for it but...during WWII German troops did not think highly of American infantry. Germans seemed more to see the ample supplies and the excellent American artillery as the US armies strong points. US Infantery was regarded as second class...(possible exceptions are the Airbornes and Rangers).
If there is truth to it, it would explain, that the Marines stick out.

But feel free to dismiss it as German arrogance.

Belleau Wood wasn't that big a deal for the Germans in WWI. It took place in June 1918, after almost four years of fighting. I imagine that Ypres, the Somme, Verdun, and a few other battles might stand out. Belleau wood was a tiny, tiny fight compared to these others. It was a big deal for the Marines and the Americans because it was only the 2nd real "battle" that made it in the news back home, and the first that involved the Marines (The Battle of Cantigny, involving the 1st Division, had taken place a week earlier).

I'm not sure what the 2nd part pf you post refers to - there were no Marines involved in combat in Europe During WWII. In all honesty, though, it doesn't really matter.

[Salty Dog]

this was a good read. thanks for posting it california joe. oorah!

[Scrim]

Shut your hole DEP4, and go get my ear-neclace. p-)

[Salty Dog]

Shut your hole DEP4, and go get my ear-neclace. p-)

stag yo!...why ya gotta be frontin on a poolee like that! :oops: :D

[Merik]

As late as 1997, Assistant Secretary of the Army Sara Lister took aim at the Marines. "I think the Army is much more connected to society than the Marines are." Lister said before an audience at Harvard University. "Marines are extremists. Wherever you have extremists, you've got some risks of total disconnection with society. And that's a little dangerous."




Not wanting to start anything with any of you jarheads here since your all Vets in my view, but that is probably the most dead on quote I have read in this entire thread. Practically all of the Marines I have ever met are in some form or fashion a raging, overbearing, looneybin. Or in Lister's words, extremists. Also I think that Marines are overrated, case in point Vietnam. I wont go into details but thats just my two cents.

BTW CJ, nice read.

[TriggerPuller]

As late as 1997, Assistant Secretary of the Army Sara Lister took aim at the Marines. "I think the Army is much more connected to society than the Marines are." Lister said before an audience at Harvard University. "Marines are extremists. Wherever you have extremists, you've got some risks of total disconnection with society. And that's a little dangerous."




Not wanting to start anything with any of you jarheads here since your all Vets in my view, but that is probably the most dead on quote I have read in this entire thread. Practically all of the Marines I have ever met are in some form or fashion a raging, overbearing, looneybin. Or in Lister's words, extremists. Also I think that Marines are overrated, case in point Vietnam. I wont go into details but thats just my two cents.

BTW CJ, nice read.Go FUUCK yourself!!!!!!!! And yes Iam a raging, overbearing, lonneybin of a Marine!!

TP

[Haiw]

TP's an extremist on screwing Mexican whores... ;)

[Scrim]

*sharpens knife and prepares space on neclace for Meriks ears*

[mocking_loudly_died]

The marine extremity derives from their need to be constantly inundated with cheap coffee.
They turn into howling war-mongering beasts with out a steady supply of that sweet “no frills” brand caffeine.

On cold winter nights you can hear them in the wind “Brains…..lovely brains....wait....coffee....must have cheap caffeine fix”.

[James]

As late as 1997, Assistant Secretary of the Army Sara Lister took aim at the Marines. "I think the Army is much more connected to society than the Marines are." Lister said before an audience at Harvard University. "Marines are extremists. Wherever you have extremists, you've got some risks of total disconnection with society. And that's a little dangerous."




Not wanting to start anything with any of you jarheads here since your all Vets in my view, but that is probably the most dead on quote I have read in this entire thread. Practically all of the Marines I have ever met are in some form or fashion a raging, overbearing, looneybin. Or in Lister's words, extremists. Also I think that Marines are overrated, case in point Vietnam. I wont go into details but thats just my two cents.

BTW CJ, nice read.

Well, that's fine Merik, though I don't consider myself an extremist in any sense. I would go so far to say that there are a fair number of members of this forum, both under the age of 20 and who've never served in the military, who are far more extrreme than I am.

That's just my two cents. ;)

[Merik]

As late as 1997, Assistant Secretary of the Army Sara Lister took aim at the Marines. "I think the Army is much more connected to society than the Marines are." Lister said before an audience at Harvard University. "Marines are extremists. Wherever you have extremists, you've got some risks of total disconnection with society. And that's a little dangerous."




Not wanting to start anything with any of you jarheads here since your all Vets in my view, but that is probably the most dead on quote I have read in this entire thread. Practically all of the Marines I have ever met are in some form or fashion a raging, overbearing, looneybin. Or in Lister's words, extremists. Also I think that Marines are overrated, case in point Vietnam. I wont go into details but thats just my two cents.

BTW CJ, nice read.

Well, that's fine Merik, though I don't consider myself an extremist in any sense. I would go so far to say that there are a fair number of members of this forum, both under the age of 20 and who've never served in the military, who are far more extrreme than I am.

That's just my two cents. ;)

I should have added that its only the one's I have met in person. Not any of you fellas. p-)

[Jackel]

In 1994 I was in the 11th MEU and we went to Somalia and for Operation Quick Draw. We took over Military operations from the ARMY'S 10th Mt DIV and I was not impressed. The UN was a cluster F*ck. The Packi's allmost shot up are squad on night, because there are Packi's (enough said). We had to re-organize combat patrols and beef up security around the port and airport. While I was there, we had no casualties. However it was preety much open season on anyone wearing sandals and carring and AK. Sempi Fi Devils Dogs!!!

[Johnnyringo]

Welcome Jackal...

Semper Fi

[TriggerPuller]

In 1994 I was in the 11th MEU and we went to Somalia and for Operation Quick Draw. We took over Military operations from the ARMY'S 10th Mt DIV and I was not impressed. The UN was a cluster F*ck. The Packi's allmost shot up are squad on night, because there are Packi's (enough said). We had to re-organize combat patrols and beef up security around the port and airport. While I was there, we had no casualties. However it was preety much open season on anyone wearing sandals and carring and AK. Sempi Fi Devils Dogs!!! WTF? if you are a Marine you better get the Motto correct! No such thing as "sempi".

TP

[Jackel]

Dont bust my balls, I'm havin a cold one.

[Johnnyringo]

Nothing gets by TP.... always have to dot your tee's and cross your eyes!

[Jackel]

Thanks Johnny

[FallenAngel]

I would have to agree. Granted it's a generalization, but your average German soldier was "better" than his English, American or Russian counterpart. THe Germans had something like a 15:1 kill ratio on the Eastern front and were damn efficicent. German tanks were many times better than American and British designs.
I think Germany was (again, generally speaking) beaten by quantity over quality.
Where did You take this 15:1 kill ratio on Eastern Front... from?? :cantbeli: Even if You count in the einsatzgruppen (If You know who were they) "work" in, there couldn't be such a high ratio.... unless You add in the Beria boys victims to the German account. Hey Russians, some figures for our colleague please... What are Your accounts?

Maybe it was 12:1. I read it in a book about SS units on the eastern front during WWII. It noted several instances in late '44 and '45 where advancing waves of Red Infantry (we're talking hundreds) were cut down by SS squads (a few dozen) while the German Army was retreating out of Russia. As a student of history, I know the German Infantry squad was centered around the machine gun. All other members simply carried ammo and covered its flanks. Since an MG42 fired around 1200 rounds a minute....that's a lot of lead flying in the air. Combined with the Russian's standard tactic of simply overwhelming an enemy with sheer numbers...it's possible such a figure could exist, at least for certain periods of the war.

As for the einsatzgruppen, yes, I know who they are. As far as their "work", well, let's just say there's a difference between a man fighting out of patriotism for his country (as MOST of the Germans did- anyone who believes all Germans were Nazis is an idiot) and a butcher murdering innocent civilians after the front lines have advanced past their town for political, racial or religious reasons.