CT Forces and MP-5

[carlisle46]

Why have many CT forces switched to the M-4 Carbine from the MP-5. the MP-5 seems like a great weapons for hostage rescues, etc.

[FallenAngel]

the M4 fires the .223 remington round which offers greater penitration than an MP5 and it is not a great amount bigger and thus just as manueverable (the main advantage of the MP5) and with the new Picattinny system you can put nearly any accessory on it.

However, SEALs still use the 9mm MP5 for taking oil rigs and ships because ricochet can be a bitch in THOSE close of quarters. :lol:

[Beowulf]

A buddy of mine told me he had seen some video from Waco, and the entry team on the roof was taking fire from inside. The shooters on the inside were using AR-15 AK-47/74 type weapons, and the entry team was trying to shoot back through the wall with the MP5, and not getting any penetration. I didn't see it myself, but that would suck...

[SHOOTERB]

The MP5 is a great weapon. However it is a 9mm. After leasons learned you need a weapon you can fight with to, in, and from the objective. The M4 with its 5.56mm is the weapon used. Also with the advancement of ammo (frange rounds) you could use the M4 nearly anywhere and not worry about over penetration of the round. When doing linier take downs in small confined quarters most CT units will probably still use the MP5.

[JunglistSoldier]

Acctually, FBI HRT switched from MP5 to M-4 cause the 9mm was overpenetrating! The 9mm as opposed to the 5.56 is very heavy and thus increases the risk of going thru a wall and hitting another officer or hostage or something of the like.

The M-4 is noticably more cumbersome then the MP5 imho, however they are putting out 'CQB' carbines which have been shortened to address this issue. The MP5 is one of the greatest weaponsystems ever concived, make no mistake about it.

Furthermore the 5.56 is more versatile in the police role as the M-4 can be used with great success over longer ranges such as in rural areas, and as stated the 5.56 is getting more and more advanced with different types of bullets for diferent types of missions.

[GearGod]

Alright you guys are confusing the heck out of me

One guy says 9mm to 5.56 because 5.56 can go thru walls and 9mm cannot

Another guy says 9mm overpenetrates and 5.56 doesnt penetrate as well

I think that 9mm is weaker and less penetrable than 5.56 otherwise the military would be using 9mm instead of 5.56--- Isnt 9mm a PISTOL round and 5.56 a RIFLE round? Theres always the controversy over which rifle bullet is better--- 5.56 or 7.62--- NOT 9mm---

I thought the reason was because the 9mm could get stuck in a person which is good for killing targets without killing the noncombatant behind the target-- and the 5.56 would go through several individuals

Well Im confused-- But I'd like the M4 in combat-- Rather have penetration-- And is after all the standard in SF/Infantry--- But my question is this:

What is the pupose of the MP5?(ITS NOT MP-5 goto hkpro.com)

Why would a unit use the MP5 over the M4?

Please provide factual intel :D

[He219]

FallenAngel is right, adambalhetchet. The MP5 is a room clearing gun, a 800-900 rpm 'burp gun'. The M4 5.56x45 is a penetrator. The greater versatility renders itself an ideal multi-purpose weapon. With longer ranges and seemingly limitless accessorization(M203) it is that all around Assault Weapon.

As for the 9mm overpenetrating, I think not. It was the 10mm round the FBI found to be overpenetrating. They actually have Thompsons in their inventory for stopping power. The 5.56x45 armor piercing rounds are not ideally suited for room clearing. However the range of 5.56 mm rounds, from subsonic ammo w/ silencers to AP is fantastic. For room clearing I would use the MP5K with a 900 rpm Cyclic rate and a short profile. The M4 can be converted with AL Bolt Carriers and other modifications to fire at around 1,000 rpm!!!

p-)
He219

[JunglistSoldier]

No, the FBI ballisticsdivision (or whatever) ran tests on the 9mm and came to the conclusion that the heavier bullet overpenetrated. Have you guys seen an actuall 9mm round side to side with a 5.56? the 5.56 has a diamater like a .22, the 9mm is just that, 9mm, and thus waay heavier.

Yes, the 9mm is primarily a pistol and submachinegun round, it's design isn't efficient for the longer ranges a rifle would be used at.

A unit uses the MP5 over an M-4 or similiar rifle because the MP5 provides alot of punch in a very compact package, it's a proven and reliable design and it's generally alot more pleasant to have when going thru windows and doors and such.

"I think that 9mm is weaker and less penetrable than 5.56 otherwise the military would be using 9mm instead of 5.56"

The (US) miltary uses the 9mm mind you, for applications such as the M9 pistol and MP5 subguns, but like i said it is inefficient over longer ranges and thus we use larger calibers such as 5.56 and 7.62 instead.

"Theres always the controversy over which rifle bullet is better--- 5.56 or 7.62--- NOT 9mm"

Nobody has ever said that the 9mm is a rifle round mate.

"Well Im confused-- But I'd like the M4 in combat-- Rather have penetration--"

Well, i'd choose my rifle based on reliability, ballistics and efficienty, and a round that will penetrate isn't always better mind you, however we are required by some convention only to use FMJ ammo.

Basicly adam i don't really think you kow what your speaking about mate, no offense.

[DeltaWhisky58]

An interesting point here - I passed through one of the London airports last weekend, and as a fairly frequent flyer I'm used to the Anti-terrorist police at our airports (remember UK police are not routinely armed) carrying MP-5s. I was surpised to see one of a pair of Bobbies carrying an H&K G-36 Commando - the European equivilent of the M-4 - whilst his partner carried an MP-5.

I had a brief chat with the Bobbie who confirmed that there is a borad move in the UK CT network towards the 5.56x45mm round, and the G-36 by preference.

I guess this supports the MP-5/M-4 arguement.

http://www.hkpro.com/action10londong36clg.jpg

[TacoDelRio]

Personally, i think that whether a person uses an MP5 or an M4 is up to personal preferance. I personally have a much easier time in CQB and doing MOUT stuff, like climbing over obstacles, with the mp5, even with the full stock. However, I enjoy the longer range (and accuracy at that longer range) of the M4 carbine. If I had to choose a survival weapon for any random spot on earth, I'd chose the M4. But, if I lived in a large very crowded city, I'd chose the MP5. You can probably carry more parabellum rounds than .223's.

90% of it is personal preferance, or what the department/group chooses to use, in which case you are stuck with it.

Just my opinion/s.

Hooah p-)

[He219]

JunglistSoldier, I'll research ballistics findings and will report back!

DeltaWhiskey58, Nice pic. Glad to see the Limey's using good Kraut, weaponry.. (No offense intended) I've seen the Heathrow Police with MP5's as far back as the mid 80's. I was at Athens airport shortly after the last bloodbath there, I think 86 or so. The still have that blue Armored Personel Carrier up front. That last Heathrow militarization was interesting though, with the portable SAM threat...

MrSkorotsnoy, yes personal preference and most improtantly Functionality. I would carry an MP5K with a folding stock as a back up and use whatever else for the job, sniper weapon or assault weapon - that is totally hypothetically speaking though...

p-)
He219

[steel bonnet]

He219,
l think you`ll find,till recently HK was BRITISH owned :D

Personally though as long as it`s a HK the British CT units use,l don`t think there`s ever going to be problems :D the g36 in it`s short lifespan has already proven to be One of the best Assault Rifles going & how long did it take Colt to sort there`s ;)
Oh l know it took HK to sort out our SA80 too,though hey,proves my case :D

HK BEST SMGs
HK BEST ASSAULT Weapons
HK Best 40mm Attachment

Well when you want the best,use HK & do it with STYLE :D

ja
Steel bonnet

[SHOOTERB]

Yes I have seen a 9mm and a 5.56mm round side by side. the 9mm does not have more penetration power of the 5.56mm and it defintely will not be as accurate at longer ranges no matter what weapon it is shot from MP5 or otherwise. For the last 14 years I have been shooting both so I dont have to read about what round is heavier and more accurate. I see it.

[Piccolo]

H&K was only owned by Royal Ordanace for a very short time. It was in German hands before, and is again now.

I still hate it for those British LE though. Apparently their Government doesn't trust them with more then 10-15 rounds in a magazine. I guess they are "lucky" to even get a weapon.. but what they do have, looks like something that could pass under US Gun Laws; Semi Auto, Low Capacity Magazine (10),etc. Lol, pin that folding stock and there ya go.

Also, to go back, the G36C is Not the answer to the M4. If you are comparing barrel, and overal length, the Compact model is much more relatable to the M4 Commando/shorty models.

[CX20]

I am a serving UK bobby ("cop" to the non-UK people here) and have been lurking on this forum for a while now, but I decided to reply in this thread to clear up some misconceptions I've read here.

The decision to issue 5.56mm or 9mm long guns is down to the individual police force concerned, as long as they are in accordance with ACPO Guidelines set down with ACPO and the Home Office. The weapons issued vary from force to force. Take my force for example, which issues the HK 53 5.56mm carbine (with CompM2 Aimpoint fitted) together with Walther P99 9mm pistol. The force on our east issues the MP5SF 9mm with Glock 17 9mm. The force on our west issues the Steyr AUG 5.56mm with Beretta 92F 9mm. The force to our south issues the MP5SF together with Browning High Power 9mm. The force below that one issues the MP5SF with SIG P228 9mm. Another force nearby issues a Smith & Wesson sidearm in .45cal.

The two main considerations when issuing "long" guns at ARV level are length and weight, as the weapons must be short and light enough to be drawn and then loaded from a safe in the vehicle whilst in motion. The weapons must also be short enough to fit in the safe in the first place. Our force places the safe vertically inbetween the driver and passenger seats. Only several makes of vehicles can even be used as ARVs - the requirements are that strict. I am not too sure about observer/rifleman (sniper) weapons, but in my force we have one pretty blonde female constable who is a fully qualified "sniper".

ACPO Guidelines do stipulate the ammunition that is issued, and the general issue is a low powered "semi-jacketed wad cutter" (UK police speak) round. This is our terminology for a round that has the top half of the head exposed and flattened off, sort of like a "dum dum" round. The decision to issue 15 or 30 round magazines is down to each force. My force issues two full size 25 round magazines for the carbine, together with two 20 round magazines for the pistol. Yet another force nearby only issues two 15 round magazines for their MP5SFs with two 15 round magazines for the pistol. It is down to each individual force's preference. Some forces are more restrictive and "politically sensitive" than others.

Likewise the designations of weapons issued varies from force to force. Each ARV (Armed Response Vehicle) in my force has two officers on board and carries two pistols and one carbine, along with a baton gun. Down in the Met in London they use three officers on their ARVs, with two carbines and three pistols. The average force however deploys two officers on each ARV, each with a carbine and a pistol.

The Met has been talking about moving to 5.56mm weapons for a long time. I know of instances when Met ARVs have arrived at firearms jobs in London, only to have Yardie gangsters laugh in their faces when they deploy their MP5s. The criminals have access to heavier weapons than the police do. Another key factor was an incident that occurred in London two years ago, when one gun nut with a loaded M4 carbine, with ACOG scope and M203 attached, led officers on a pursuit in which he opened fire on automatic on the pursuing ARVs. He kept them at a distance that their MP5s were ineffective. They only gained the upper hand when he ran into a house and a seige situation developed (SO19's speciality).

With regards to UK police not having automatic weapons, just because you do not see them in pictures on this forum, doesn't mean that they do not have them. I know of at least one force that deploys MP5s with the "semi-burst-auto" trigger group. I have seen this with my own eyes and watched officers shoot off twelve round bursts, I don't need to listen to some of the comments on this forum to know about that. Likewise with explosive entries - the capability is there, it just hasn't been used yet. UK police forces have had baton guns for years, but no Superintendent has ever granted authority for their use - it is a career ender, believe me. Only recently have baton guns been approved for general use on ARVs, so they've only just made the news. But they have been there in the police armouries for decades.

Any further questions on UK issues, ask away.

[He219]

CX20, nice posting. Did you see DeltaWhiskey58's pic of the Heathrow Bobbies with the G36s? From what you write, it appears that some MP5's in Met are not Full Auto capable? I assumed all MP5's (and G36's) in British Law Enforcement were FA. And what is a baton gun anyway? Thanks.

p-)
He219

[martinexsquaddie]

A Baton Gun is a PLastic Bullet GUN replacing the infamous Rubber bullet
throws a huge chunk of plastic at you at considerable force its non-lethal
more or less theres 3 diffrent weights of propellant marked by coloured bands on the cartidges with minimum safe distances.
the weapon itself is break open like an m79 with a skeleton stock though i belive the police force have issued them with sights the army ones just had a rudementiary sight its a smooth bore riot control weapon.
The police have started carrying it as a non lethal way of dealing with nutters with swords or knives after a madman with a samuri sword was killed after CS gas proved ineffective.
Theres also an arwen which is a revolver like rifle can fire 6 rounds as fast as you can sight never on general issue my platoon commander aquired one he had a part5 fire arms licence.
there trialing Tasers as a possible replacement for the baton gun Tasers are amazing painful but i never tried out being shot by a baton gun

[DeltaWhisky58]

HE219

The pic of the G-36c I posted is from London/Luton airport (Befordshire police) - The two main London Airports (Heathrow and Gatwick) have Bobbies armed with Glock 17/MP-5 kit. This is explained very well by CX20 who has cleared up a lot of the "don't knows" in my mind.

CX20

Thanks for a very interesting and informative post. As a matter of interest, I noticed the guys at Luton last w/e were carying what looked to be stainless/nickel pistols (as in my pic) - any idea what they are? - I didn't take enough notice whwn close-up.

[Chris1]

I still hate it for those British LE though. Apparently their Government doesn't trust them with more then 10-15 rounds in a magazine. I guess they are "lucky" to even get a weapon.. but what they do have, looks like something that could pass under US Gun Laws; Semi Auto, Low Capacity Magazine (10),etc. Lol, pin that folding stock and there ya go.

The firearms officers that you and everybody else see are DEFENSIVE only.
They will react to a threat if it is immediate, ie some one firing at them or a member of the public.
They do not require 30 round magazines and an automatic for this.
If you are a firearms officer who cannot hit a man with 10 rounds in a rifle and 15 in a pistol you should not be armed.
IF a firearms officer came into trouble which required more than the firearms that he carried, MUCH better armed coppers would be on their way PDQ, with fully automatic firearms and trained to use them.
In the met (london) for example you have SO19, who were trained by those blue ninja's the SAS.

[Piccolo]

I realize full auto is usualy not required for most cases; most officers, unless SWAT, or other, do not even ride with such in the States. The magazine bit does bug me however, why not atleast fill the magazine to it's full capacity.. just doesn't sit right with me, I dunno.

[CX20]

DeltaWhiskey58

Thanks for the compliments. The nickel pistols are the Smith & Wessons I was referring to in my first post. Not sure on the exact model, but I know they are definitely S & W as I got to see one close up once. They are definitely Bedfordshire officers, their cap badges give them away. Bedfordshire is a very progressive force and issues equipment that other forces shy away from. It pioneered the baton gun and I believe it is one of the forces currently trialling Tazer. It is also the only force that issues 31" ASP batons. All other forces including my own, issue the 21" model.

Chris

You are wrong about SO19 deploying automatic weapons and being trained by the SAS. To my knowledge only one force in the UK deploys automatic-capable weapons and it is not the Met. I have contacts in SO19. SO19 is constantly under the political microscope and automatic weapons are a big no-no. The MP5 with the Single Fire trigger group is standard at the moment with Single Fire G36s gradually making an appearance on ARVs. SO19 are not trained by the SAS. They have their own equally well qualified instructors at Lippetts Hill. The SAS had a hand in initially training some police instructors back in the very early 1980s when SO19 was known as D11 Branch. After that, SO19 have trained themselves. The two units come together once a year at the annual Remount Exercise. SAS troopers are on a rolling attachment program with SO19, however this for the SAS troopers to learn from the SO19 lads. The SAS CT Teams train constantly, yet may never deploy on a live job. SO19 SFO teams deploy on live jobs every day, and in this line of business experience is everything.

The only extra equipment that SO19 SFO teams carry opposed to that carried by the normal ARV crews are Multi-Burst Distraction Devices ("Flash Bangs"), specialist entry equipment (Remington shotguns loaded with Hatton rounds, CS gas Ferret rounds, plus other little surprises) plus long barrel weapons in the form of HK33 or Steyr SSG accurized rifles. They do not bring automatic weapons, they bring a wider range of options, so that the incident commander has more flexibility available to him to resolve the incident peacefully.

Remember that SO19 is split into two branches - AFO (ARV crews) and SFO (colour teams). Each branch has a different level of training and issue of equipment respective to their role. However they are both issued the same basic weapons - Glock 17 pistol and (at the moment) MP5SF carbine.

Baton Guns, etc.

http://www.hkpro.com/hk69aim.jpg

(Bedfordshire officer with baton gun)

The current model of baton gun issued to UK police forces is the HK 69A1 with red dot sight, shooting the new PSDB (Police Scientific Development Branch) approved plastic baton round. Reports on this round are conflicting. The PSDB ploughed over £1 million into developing the round alone. Advice was given to the PSDB by the US Department Of Justice who advised them to use bean bag rounds as the PSDB baton round was potentially lethal. The PSDB ignored the advice and used £1 million of tax payers money to develop an inferior and more lethal round., when a proven and safer option was already available. Why they did this, god only knows.

In October 2001 I was fortunate enough to attend "Less Lethal 2001" a demonstration by a private company of new options available to UK forces, outside of what is officially offered by the PSDB. The PSDB got wind of this event and wrote to every Chief Constable to prevent their officers from attending. Some forces (including mine) ignored the warning and sent representatives anyway. The event occured at a country house in Lincolnshire. It was attended by teams from the most progressive UK police forces, along with our colleagues from Poole and Hereford. All those who attended had the chance to get "hands on" with the latest equipment. I test fired shotguns and Arwen rotary grenade launchers loaded with bean bag rounds, Tazers and other weapons. Representatives of US SWAT teams and supply companies were on hand to "sell" their products. I had never before seen an MP5 equipped with a mounted grenade launcher until this event, yet it is commonplace in some jurisdictions in the USA.

[Chris1]

that was actually what I was on about when I said they were trained by the SAS but maybe 'trained in the same manner as the SAS CRW' would be more accurate.
as for what they carry specifically, you'd know more than me but I hope you got the point of my post, we don't want coppers having a shoot out with fully automatic weapons and high capacity magazines and that if a firearms officer got into trouble, people with more equipment would already be on the way.
would they have more ammunition?
you'd know more than me but I'd say its a pretty good yes.
I apologise though Piccolo that was a bit of a harsh post for a fair comment that you made, cultural differences aside.

Just as a question CX20, with the recent media coverage in mind, would you want to be armed?

[CX20]

Your're correct, the last thing anyone wants is a protracted gun battle with automatic firearms on our streets. Sadly these are already occuring amongst the criminal fraternities in my force area. However they are not bound by rules and regulations, and will not have Liberty and all the other civil rights groups on their back at the drop of a hat when they discharge their weapons.

ARV crews do have immediate access to extra ammunition if they need it, but as you can appreciate I won't discuss that any further.

With respect to being armed, it is a difficult question. Do not always believe the "official" polls that are conducted on this matter - the results are always manipulated to suit a particular purpose. No Labour government will ever introduce general arming. Even if the lads and lasses wanted it, it would never happen - the "spin doctors" would see to that. It is a logistical nightmare too. The basic AFO course is 4 weeks long. To train a moderately sized force like mine (3,000 officers) would take years. Then you run the risk of those who are not armed becoming a target in place of those who are.

The training courses for batons, handcuffs & CS spray attended by all officers are all one day each in duration respectively. So when the police service decided to equip all officers with those items a few years ago, it was easy to train all officers relatively quickly. However when a training course takes 4 weeks, it is a whole different matter. Plus you don't require extensive pyschological testing to use batons, cuffs or CS spray.

Ask any copper if they would want the service to be armed, and they will immediately be able to tell you of at least 10 of their colleagues whom they would not trust with a firearm. I know that I could handle a firearm responsibly as I have done so in the past. I'm just not sure if I could rely on everyone I work with to do the same. The whole concept of policing in this country would have to change, and public perception would be affected as a result. It would only take several "wrong" shootings for public support and trust to falter. Then it would set us back years in terms of community relations and trust.

So to answer your question: I am strongly against general arming of the police service as a whole, but would not object to carrying a firearm if I had to. At present I do not carry firearms on an everyday basis, I believe that the way forward is an increase in the number of ARVs available at divisional, rather than force, level.

[BiZ]

Acctually, FBI HRT switched from MP5 to M-4 cause the 9mm was overpenetrating!

I find this very hard to belive for two reasons:

1. FBI purchased several hundred MP5's for all it's SWAT teams, certain agents and the CIRG HRT. They have their time and place for usage, the M4 is great but not a "can do everything" weapon system, no weapon is.

2. The FBI use 10mm MP5, not 9mm. So your 9mm comment is either a typo or the factual basis from which it supposedly comes from is false.


All this bollocks about CQB pentration and facts this and ballistics tables that etc etc is utter crap.

Over here, as with US SOF CT units and their Police (FBI etc) conterparts etc, TAG and PTG units only shoot head shots in CQB type opeartions, so body armour, clothing, body size etc isnt a factor when engaging targets.

I thinkt oo many people get carried away with ballistics and "tests" and "facts" over all sorts of things like muzzle velocity and that.

Both the M4 and the MP5 series are great for CQB, but neither can totally replace each other 100% depending on your unit, mission type and reason for being etc.
Military units of the conventional kind could 100% stick with an M4 type, whereas SOF CT and Civvie forces such as HRT, SWAT, TOU etc could not for the variety of situations they need to deal with.

The old saying that I was told many years ago was that:
"a weapon is just like a tradesman tool, you select the right one for the right job out of your tool box and you'll be fine"