Minutemen to Bush: Build fence or we will

[annihilation]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BORDER_FENCE_MINUTEMAN?SITE=MTBIL&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT



TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) -- Minuteman border watch leader Chris Simcox has a message for President Bush: Build new security fencing along the border with Mexico or private citizens will.
Simcox said Wednesday that he's sending an ultimatum to the president, through the media, of course - "You can't get through to the president any other way" - to deploy military reserves and the National Guard to the Arizona border by May 25.
Or, Simcox said, by the Memorial Day weekend Minuteman Civil Defense Corps volunteers and supporters will break ground to start erecting fencing privately.
"We have had landowners approach," Simcox said in an interview. "We've been working on this idea for a while. We're going to show the federal government how easy it is to build these security fences, how inexpensively they can be built when built by private people and free enterprise."
http://hosted.ap.org/icons/spacer.gif AP_Tacoda_AMS_DDC_addPair("SECTION", "NATIONAL") AP_Tacoda_AMS_DDC("http://te.ap.org/tte/blank.gif", "1.0") http://te.ap.org/tte/blank.gif?0.2825240048338199&snippet_version=1.3.a&referrer=http%3A//www.drudgereport.com/&page=http%3A//hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BORDER_FENCE_MINUTEMAN%3FSITE%3DMTBIL%26SECTION%3DUS%26TEMPLATE%3DDEFAULT&timezone=240&var_SECTION=NATIONAL http://hosted.ap.org/icons/spacer.gif http://hosted.ap.org/icons/spacer.gif Simcox said a half-dozen landowners along the Arizona-Mexico border have said they will allow fencing to be placed on their borderlands, and others in California, Texas and New Mexico have agreed to do so as well.
"Certainly, as with everything else, we're only able to cover a small portion of the border," Simcox said. "The state and federal government have bought up most of the land around the border. I suspect that's why we'll never get control of the border."
But he said the plan is to put up secure fencing that truly will be an effective deterrent, and to show how easily it can be accomplished.
Simcox gave this description of the envisioned barrier-and-fencing complex:
http://hosted.ap.org/icons/spacer.gif Buy AP Photo Reprints http://hosted.ap.org/icons/spacer.gifhttp://hosted.ap.org/specials/images/ap_photo_promo.jpg (http://pictopia.com/perl/gal?provider_id=38) http://hosted.ap.org/icons/spacer.gif http://hosted.ap.org/icons/spacer.gif Start with a 6-foot deep trench so a vehicle can't crash through; behind it, roll of concertina (coiled, razor-edged barbed wire), in front of a 15-foot high heavy-gauge steel mesh fence angled outward at the top.
Behind the fence will be a 60- to 70-foot wide unpaved but graded dirt road, along with inexpensive, mounted video cameras that can be monitored from home computers. On the other side of the road will be a second, 15-foot fence, with more concertina wire on its outside.
"It's a very simple, effective design based on feedback we've had from Border Patrol and the military," Simcox said. "It's a fence that can be built on the cheap, effective and secure."
Simcox said supporters will try to build the fencing with volunteer labor. Surveyors and contractors have offered to help with the design and survey work, he said, and some have said they will provide heavy equipment.
Simcox said those involved in the planning hope to keep costs to between $125 and $150 a foot.
Access to land literally on the border is an issue because so much is state-leased trust property or federally owned, he said.
"You may have to deal with a situation where private property owners erect their own fences and may be faced with the president sending the National Guard to prevent them from protecting their private property," Simcox said.
He said the Minuteman plan is "to keep turning up the heat" until President Bush has to respond somehow.
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On the Net:
Minuteman Civil Defense Corps: http://www.minutemanhq.com (http://www.minutemanhq.com/)
Let Freedom Ring: http://weneedafence.com (http://weneedafence.com/)

[vlun]

why don't u have snipers shoot anyone who's trying to come in? they are pow's. is it illegal to shoot an illegal? they can't go to the hospital because they have no health care. there's your deterrent.
vman

[Atlantic Friend]

1986 : "M. Gorbachev, tear down that wall !"
2006 : "M. Bush, build up this wall !"

[Atlantic Friend]

why don't u have snipers shoot anyone who's trying to come in?

Probably because the Penal Code says being an illegal immigrant is being punished through other means. This being said, maybe it could work if the whole border was declared a military installation ?


they are pow's.

First, there is no POWs without a state of war, and second, you don't shoot POWs as a rule.


is it illegal to shoot an illegal?

Except in self-defense, I'd say yes, but I'm no legal expert.

[Ea$y-8]

Sorry doubt post.

[Ea$y-8]

1986 : "M. Gorbachev, tear down that wall !"
2006 : "M. Bush, build up this wall !"

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[vlun]

the invasion of america is happening right now. we just don't know it yet. if I was bush, I would landmine the entire border. there's your solution. you guys spend 9 trillion dollars for defense. Us canadians spend like 100 million ... i guess it's too cold for mexicans here.
vman

[Freibier]

They forgot to mention extensive mine fields :cantbeli:
US border ca. 2007:
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/9332/bode041yi.jpg
http://www.rolfrost.de/grenze.html

[Abolith]

They forgot to mention extensive mine fields :cantbeli:
US border ca. 2007:
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/9332/bode041yi.jpg
http://www.rolfrost.de/grenze.html


looks good except you forgot the razor wire and the angled fence top.

[Freibier]

You don't see all in this pic, the actual border fence was 500m deep

[sferrin]

1986 : "M. Gorbachev, tear down that wall !"
2006 : "M. Bush, build up this wall !"

There is one subtle point that probably eluded your sharp eye. Gorbachev's was to keep people IN. The fence they're building is to keep people OUT. Are are you in support of helping people break the law? (Illegals are law-breakers which is why they're called "illegals"- another one of those subtleties that seems to have escaped your notice.)

[BadKarma26]

the invasion of america is happening right now. we just don't know it yet. if I was bush, I would landmine the entire border. there's your solution. you guys spend 9 trillion dollars for defense. Us canadians spend like 100 million ... i guess it's too cold for mexicans here.
vman

I'd like to see where you got your figures for US defense expenditures.

[Miles.]

There is one subtle point that probably eluded your sharp eye. Gorbachev's was to keep people IN. The fence they're building is to keep people OUT. Are are you in support of helping people break the law? (Illegals are law-breakers which is why they're called "illegals"- another one of those subtleties that seems to have escaped your notice.)

Don't waste your time. He makes sarcastic comments like that, and then when challenged, says "Take it easy, I was just...blah blah..."

[Laworkerbee]

I have an idea that fixes the problem

We hire Mexicans to build the wall, and forever keep modifying it. And forever keeping them busy on their side.

"tell your boys they did a nice job on the last 5 miles of wall there Jose, unfortunately we did a redesign and you will have to tear the whole thing down again and start over"

woot no?

[Miles.]

I have an idea that fixes the problem

We hire Mexicans to build the wall, and forever keep modifying it. And forever keeping them busy on their side.

"tell your boys they did a nice job on the last 5 miles of wall there Jose, unfortunately we did a redesign and you will have to tear the whole thing down again and start over"

woot no?

rofl rofl

That's just mean...

[joe mama]

1986 : "M. Gorbachev, tear down that wall !"
2006 : "M. Bush, build up this wall !"

Yup, it's EXACTLY the same.

[remo williams]

There is one subtle point that probably eluded your sharp eye. Gorbachev's was to keep people IN. The fence they're building is to keep people OUT.

Or keep illegals in their own country. Depends on what side of the issue you look at it from.p-) Still if the minutemen build their own fence, how big will it be? How much of the border will it span? I'm betting as high and as long as their money supply is..

[Greek soldier]

Well Arnold Shwarzenegger openly supports them (the minutemen) p-)

And Bush called them vigilants.

[remo williams]

Well Arnold Shwarzenegger openly supports them (the minutemen) p-)

And Bush called them vigilants.

Vigilants or vigalantes? There is a difference.

[Miles.]

Vigilants or vigalantes? There is a difference.

English is not Mr. Obvious' first language.

"Vigilantes" is what the President said.

[Greek soldier]

Sorry, my mistake. He said vigilantes.

Thanx for the correction.

[dangerclose]

1986 : "M. Gorbachev, tear down that wall !"
2006 : "M. Bush, build up this wall !"

That's a stupid comparison.

Why do communists have to forcibly keep people from leaving?

[Blarney]

this entire debocale is pathetic. The issue needs to be solved, and no one wants to enact the means. Course, a wall would be nice, but think of the PR message we're sending. I'm all for kicking them out...but we cant really do much without an international backlash.

Then again, we could flood their country with our degenerates and tell the Mexicans to give them all the benefits they want.

[Kilgor]

1986 : "M. Gorbachev, tear down that wall !"
2006 : "M. Bush, build up this wall !"

what does france do with illegal immigrants ?

[chuckster]

If the Minutemen tried to build a fence on private property, I wonder what legal argurment the ACLU would come up with to challenge it? You know they'll try!

[TheStorm]

It's a pity that private citizens may be forced to do what the government should already be doing.

[Atlantic Friend]

what does france do with illegal immigrants ?

France expels them, as does every country when catching them I suppose.

[Atlantic Friend]

That's a stupid comparison.

Why do communists have to forcibly keep people from leaving?

A stupid comparison ? If you say so - I bow before your superior expertise on stupidity.

As for your question, why, it's because some people can't handle the intensity of living in a Communist Paradise, of course. :roll:

[Atlantic Friend]

There is one subtle point that probably eluded your sharp eye. Gorbachev's was to keep people IN. The fence they're building is to keep people OUT. Are are you in support of helping people break the law? (Illegals are law-breakers which is why they're called "illegals"- another one of those subtleties that seems to have escaped your notice.)

Wow, I do feel out-witted here, I really do. You like the idea of this wall, and I am skeptic about its efficiency. So feel free to convince me - and more importantly, your fellow countrymen, by bringing some answers to the following questions.

1 / Supposing the Federal government build such a wall

- Has anybody computed the cost for building, maitaining and manning such a wall ?
- Won't it be necessary to also build a wall of sorts along the Canadian border ?
- Will such a wall be a real obstacle ?
- Would the money be better employed to pay for this wall, or to reinforce the Border Patrol, Coast Guard, the local police forces along the border, and to have a good hard look on all the businesses which employ illegal immigrants ?

2 / Supposing the Federal government does not build such a wall

- Can the States, or a private group of concerned citizens, legally build this wall in place of the Federal government ?
- Can the States pay for the costs within their present budgets, or are their citizens ready to accept to pay more taxes for these costs ?
- Are the States and local sitizens ready to punish the businesses which do employ illegal immigrants ?

[Atlantic Friend]

Don't waste your time. He makes sarcastic comments like that, and then when challenged, says "Take it easy, I was just...blah blah..."

Feel free to challenge me, Miles, for I love debate as much as the next man... Do I hear crickets chirping ?

[Miles.]

Feel free to challenge me, Miles, for I love debate as much as the next man... Do I hear crickets chirping ?

;)

You do make many sarcastic comments. That's some fast posting, 3 in a row. My comment was made in response to your "Reagan/Bush" comment, not the 3 posts you just made in 30 minutes. Plus, I don't care about any wall they build on the border, the oppressed citizens of Mexico will find a way to get into the US illegally, no matter what we do.

Edit:

4 posts in a row, excuse my ignorance.

[Atlantic Friend]

;)

You do make many sarcastic comments. That's some fast posting, 3 in a row. My comment was made in response to your "Reagan/Bush" comment, not the 3 posts you just made in 30 minutes. Plus, I don't care about any wall they build on the border, the oppressed citizens of Mexico will find a way to get into the US illegally, no matter what we do.

Edit:

4 posts in a row, excuse my ignorance.


Ah, I certainly have this sarcastic streak in me...

In your opinion, is the biggest flux of illegal immigration into the US due :

- to disorganized immigration, people deciding to come on their own ?
- to organized immigration through Mexican networks ?
- to organized immigration through American networks ?

[Miles.]

Ah, I certainly have this sarcastic streak in me...

In your opinion, is the biggest flux of illegal immigration into the US due :

- to disorganized immigration, people deciding to come on their own ?
- to organized immigration through Mexican networks ?
- to organized immigration through American networks ?

Organized immigration through Mexico, aided by Americans.

[Atlantic Friend]

Organized immigration through Mexico, aided by Americans.

The way I see it, Smuggling people into the US is a bit like smuggling contraband goods or drugs, in the following respects :

- the smuggling will continue as soon as there is a demand for it. It comes partly from the immigrants themselves, and partly from the companies looking for illegal workers.

- you cannot close your borders or even hinder the flows of legitimate goods and tourists, because at some point the cost to your economy will be bigger than the cost of illegal immigration,

- you cannot rely on a static defense because as every flow, this one will just move around such obstacles.

I mean, how do nations fight drug traffic ? Through informers, infiltration, police patrols, coast guards routinely boarding ships. Sure, it's not perfect, and you can only catch a small percentile of the drugs going around. Still, you can score major points against the drug gangs through this kind of work.

[XShipRider]

1986 : "M. Gorbachev, tear down that wall !"
2006 : "M. Bush, build up this wall !"

Let 'em build it... at their expense.rofl

Hollow threats by gung ho militiamen make great talking spots for
the media. The enormous expense involved will put the kibosh
on their threat post haste.

Minor difference between the two walls you mention; Berlin's was
to keep people in not out. But your point is made.

[annihilation]

Let 'em build it... at their expense.rofl

Hollow threats by gung ho militiamen make great talking spots for
the media. The enormous expense involved will put the kibosh
on their threat post haste.

Minor difference between the two walls you mention; Berlin's was
to keep people in not out. But your point is made.


Couldn't they do a donation drive. Granted they wont get the wall the US government planned for 8 billion. But they could get something built for a small stretch. Probably the best place to start would be arizona.

But as you said its mostly a talking point. They would need permits and we know that would never happen.