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Geezah
04-22-2006, 09:11 PM
California could become the first state in the nation to require semi-automatic handguns include microscopic equipment for pressing an identifying mark into every bullet fired.

Through newly developed technology, the firing pin of a semi-automatic weapon can stamp the gun's make and model onto a bullet shell as it leaves the chamber. The technology could help police investigate homicides and trace gun trafficking.

Thirty-three California police chiefs and two county sheriffs support a bill, sponsored by Assemblyman Paul Koretz, D-West Hollywood, that would require the markers.

"It has the potential to solve some significant crimes in some pretty large numbers," Koretz said in a telephone interview.

Officers could quickly match the casing numbers to weapons on a state gun sales database maintained by the California Department of Justice.

It's the second go-round for the bill, which passed the Assembly easily last year but was defeated in the Senate. This year, the votes are there, Koretz said.

Nearly 1,800 Californians lost their lives to gun violence in 2004, according to the state Department of Justice. But police make arrests in only 55 percent of homicides due to the lack of sufficient evidence.

Sam Paredes, director of the 30,000-member California Gun Owners Association, said proponents of the bill are engaging in "a lot of wishful thinking" if they believe mandating the technology will turn that around.

"All it takes is a few swipes (on the pin) with a sandpaper or nail file, and (the marker) is gone," he said.

He called the technology "laughable," saying trigger-happy criminals could outwit police investigators by picking up spent shells at a shooting range and sprinkling them at a crime scene.

That drew a big laugh from Todd Lizotte, who developed the technology for use in laser printers while he was vice president of NanoVia, a semiconductor and microelectronic equipment manufacturer bought by Hitachi in 2003.

There's nothing stopping perpetrators of gun violence from doing that now, he said.

"The truth is, nobody ever does that," he said. "When people talk about these issues, they tend to raise the common criminal up to the level of criminal mastermind and the police down to the level of (cartoon character) Wile E. Coyote."

The pin is nearly as hard as a diamond, he said. In addition, the markers on the pin are invisible to the naked eye.

The technology expands on the incidental markings that already appear on cartridge casings, Lizotte said. "Instead of relying on randomly created marks, we're placing an identifier specific to that firearm."

Hitachi acquired NanoVia, but not its ballistic imaging component. That went to ID Dynamics, a holding company founded by Lizotte and his partners.

An Assembly revote is being held up while Koretz and Assemblyman Jay La Suer, R-San Diego, the bill's chief critic, agree on a date for a demonstration.

"I told him if they're able to file (the pin) down, I'll halt the bill," Koretz said. "My understanding of the technology is that it's pretty foolproof."

The bill has the support of state Attorney General Bill Lockyer and police chiefs from Los Angeles. Also supporting the bill are police chiefs from four cities in Alameda County -- Berkeley, Oakland, Pleasanton and San Leandro -- and six cities in Contra Costa County -- Antioch, Clayton, Kensington, Richmond, San Pablo and Walnut Creek. The Alameda County Sheriff also supports the bill.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger does not comment on pending bills, a spokeswoman said.

Parendes of the Gun Owners Association said the bill "doesn't stand the chance of a snowball in the deep, dark center of the earth."

Meanwhile, a growing number of cities and counties are voting on resolutions supporting the bill. One in Contra Costa County, sponsored by Supervisors John Gioia of Richmond and Mark DeSaulnier of Concord, squeaked by in a 3-2 vote April 11.

Supervisor Gayle Uilkema of Lafayette said the bill amounts to an unfunded state mandate with counties left to pick up the costs. But the bill's supporters say there are no costs to local government.

Outfitting new guns will cost the manufacturers 25 cents to 50 cents per firearm, Lizotte said. More than 70 percent of new handguns sold in California are semi-automatic.

"I question people who opposed something so straightforward," said Griffin Dix, California state council president of the Million Mom March. "You can put an identifying number on every container of yogurt you sell, but not on a gun?"

Link (http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/14394934.htm)

So just how will this technology stop criminals from using firearms aquired illegally to commit crimes???

praetorian6
04-22-2006, 09:46 PM
^^^Exactly. This is ignorant.

Zoomie
04-22-2006, 10:02 PM
So just how will this technology stop criminals from using firearms aquired illegally to commit crimes???
Oh but you see dear Geez, if the bad guys knew that everytime they used a firearm it would be tagged like a car with a license plate, they wouldn't commit a crime. Thus leading to a huge decrease in crime, which also has been shared by the automotive industry due to the fact no one ever uses vehicles to help commit crimes. /sarcasm.

Mastermind
04-22-2006, 10:27 PM
Simply file the pin down with a diamond grit knife sharpener...they cost ten bucks at Wal-Mart. Absurd..demonic and ignorant attempt at more control of gun owners. LE is lazy, and stupid if they think this will make it any easier....what about the millions of older style guns in use now...they plan on making a law to forbid using old guns in murders? Grrrrrr.....What about foreign makers...they gonna make a law controlling them, too?

WarriorMonk
04-22-2006, 10:58 PM
I'm not too much of a real gun expert (airsofter), but whenever a bullet is loaded from the magazine, the magazine lip scrapes on the casing and makes some mark on it - when the casing leaves the gun after firing the mark is still there - doesn't that already prove enough evidence on what gun was used after analysis?

Mastermind
04-22-2006, 11:10 PM
WM...you are right...but the police are lazy and want the anti-gun lobby and legislators to do their job for them....It is an asinine effort that will amount to nothing but enrich the guy who thought up the scheme.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
04-23-2006, 12:15 AM
gonna have to second everyones thoughts here, although i dont see it as a bad idea...criminals generally arent the smartest people, and a good portion of crime is not as "pre-meditated" as everyone thinks. it seems to be that criminals can be very spontaneous, anything that helps police catch ****wads is cool with me, but i dont see it being "the end of crime" or anything.

Geezah
04-23-2006, 12:16 AM
LE is lazy, and stupid if they think this will make it any easier....what about the millions of older style guns in use now...they plan on making a law to forbid using old guns in murders? Grrrrrr.....What about foreign makers...they gonna make a law controlling them, too?

If this passes, and that is a big IF, I look for them to pass another bill that outlaws any firearms built prior to this bill. Their arguement would be the fact that LE are having a hard time following up on crimes commited with firearms built prior to the ban.Anyone that thinks this will not happen only has to look at the rediculous(sp) AWB that is place. I wonder how many people have managed to get around the current loophole and is now in possesion of a STAG, RRA or DPMS lower?

Geezah
04-23-2006, 12:18 AM
gonna have to second everyones thoughts here, although i dont see it as a bad idea...criminals generally arent the smartest people, and a good portion of crime is not as "pre-meditated" as everyone thinks. it seems to be that criminals can be very spontaneous, anything that helps police catch ****wads is cool with me, but i dont see it being "the end of crime" or anything.

So there's going to be one set of firearms made for the Californian market and another set made for the rest of the World?

Hollis
04-23-2006, 12:32 AM
So there's going to be one set of firearms made for the Californian market and another set made for the rest of the World?

They did it with cars.

Blarney
04-23-2006, 12:59 AM
easier to find the gun and the killer basically....but the stolen part throws a loop....criminals arent as smart though in forensics department.

praetorian6
04-23-2006, 01:07 AM
If all this amazing technology consists of is an engraved firing pin, what's to stop people from simply swapping out pins? What's the point? I mean other than lobbyist trying to get a foothold.

Rakki
04-23-2006, 04:45 AM
Personally while I am for ownership of guns, I don't see how there's anything wrong with all guns sold being built with some form of identification. Legal owners have nothing to worry about - and it makes things easier for the cops if they find someone with a couple of rounds in the chest.

Pindeho
04-23-2006, 06:25 AM
Oh but you see dear Geez, if the bad guys knew that everytime they used a firearm it would be tagged like a car with a license plate, they wouldn't commit a crime. Thus leading to a huge decrease in crime, which also has been shared by the automotive industry due to the fact no one ever uses vehicles to help commit crimes. /sarcasm.

OK, the point of illigal weapons is that they're not registered, so how can they be tagged it not registered?:roll:

Geezah
04-23-2006, 09:41 AM
Personally while I am for ownership of guns, I don't see how there's anything wrong with all guns sold being built with some form of identification. Legal owners have nothing to worry about - and it makes things easier for the cops if they find someone with a couple of rounds in the chest.

What about the brass collectors that you always see at the range?

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
04-23-2006, 01:18 PM
geezah my guess is their focus would be on handguns...and we all know there is no way theyll come in your home and take your guns, unless you yourself are a criminal. i think everyone is freaking out for no reason here. are you saying you wouldn't want a means for the authorities to link weapons to their possessors for violent crimes? i also dont think they're going to "personalize the stamps for the individual guns" so the brass collectors have nothing to worry about...plus some are probably trying to get that insanely high price tag for brass scrap (kidding, although probably very true).

much adieu about nothing i say.

Hollis
04-23-2006, 02:00 PM
geezah my guess is their focus would be on handguns

No it is a part of the slow squeeze to end gun ownership.

Look at the laws Calif, has already.. recently they banned any 50 cal. San Francisco banned hand guns.. and a bunch of other restrictions other states do not have.

California is another country as far as Car manufactures goes, there are Fedaral cars, for all of the 49 states, then there are cars for California.. so the process is not new to California.

A Oregonian can own guns his California neighbor can not. along with parts, magazines etc.

SOG
04-23-2006, 03:53 PM
i am regularly embarresed by living in kkkalifornia. i gotta take care of that someday. i cant beleive such people exist.

Mastermind
04-23-2006, 04:49 PM
i am regularly embarresed by living in kkkalifornia. i gotta take care of that someday. i cant beleive such people exist.

Where do you retreat to? When does the retreat end? That's what's wrong with Cal. and a great many other parts of the nation. After Reagan was through being Gov...the good guys just gave up and left...now its a land full of fruits and nuts....when do you finally make a stand?

SOG
04-23-2006, 06:19 PM
Where do you retreat to? When does the retreat end? That's what's wrong with Cal. and a great many other parts of the nation. After Reagan was through being Gov...the good guys just gave up and left...now its a land full of fruits and nuts....when do you finally make a stand?

well my personal stance was that kalifornia is already lost and is too deep to fix. i generally expect kalifornia to erupt in some way or another at some point. so i figure since it is a lost cause, i should move to a place that isnt, when i am able, and make a stand where i move. but in all honesty i have not looked in depth at the good vs bad in california and where it is all going. i am just basing my stance on what i see on a daily basis. and since i go into LA regularly, i dont see alot of good.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
04-23-2006, 07:02 PM
hhhmmm i wouldn't know much about gun laws, cause im from texas...

it took maybe 10 mins to buy my .45 and some gold dots, less time then it took for my 12 ga.

SOG you should consider the move to texas, we have very low living expenses, you can buy land and a ridiculous home on the cheap, but we're not quite as "cool" as cali...haha

Roaming East
04-23-2006, 09:16 PM
I've already decided to retire in either Texas or Nevada like my bro did. Hate to see my collection of arms go the way of the dodo.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
04-23-2006, 11:27 PM
good choice roaming, the door is open come on in

Lt. James Anderson
04-23-2006, 11:45 PM
Link (http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/14394934.htm)

So just how will this technology stop criminals from using firearms aquired illegally to commit crimes???

I won't. Its only purpose is to limit YOUR personal freedoms.

Mastermind
04-24-2006, 12:40 AM
Nevada is almost as good as Texas...the only draw back I see from here is the proximity to Kalifornia. Be that as it may be...we have really great gun laws except for North Las Vegas and Boulder City. In NLV, you have to transport all "dangerous weapons" which includes sling shots and BB guns, in a locked box not accessible to the driver. But, in Las Vegas proper...only a few miles from where I live, you can walk down the street with your colt in a holster on your hip. Of course, if you do, the cops will be banging your head against the side walk every fifteen minutes in spite of the carry law. But, out in the surrounding desert...no hassels at all. I shoot in a place located less than ten minutes from my house and just across the city line from NLV.

Will938
04-24-2006, 01:02 AM
They did it with cars.

The thing with cars is that California usually tests the emissions equipment through CARB and then the EPA impliments a lot of it to all 50 states.

EGR valves, air pumps, ect, all from CARB.

Geezah
04-24-2006, 09:15 AM
geezah my guess is their focus would be on handguns


No it is a part of the slow squeeze to end gun ownership.

Look at the laws Calif, has already.. recently they banned any 50 cal. San Francisco banned hand guns.. and a bunch of other restrictions other states do not have.

California is another country as far as Car manufactures goes, there are Fedaral cars, for all of the 49 states, then there are cars for California.. so the process is not new to California.

A Oregonian can own guns his California neighbor can not. along with parts, magazines etc.

It will start slowly, they will say that the law is too hard to enforce because of wheel guns, then they will attack bolt action rifles, then pump action shotguns. You see this bill is all based on the fact that brass is left at the scene of the crime.
I'm not in favour in any law that steps on our freedoms, and as far as I'm concerned this will have little to no affect on violect crime exactly the same way as the AWB did.

Turhapuro
04-24-2006, 09:19 AM
If all this amazing technology consists of is an engraved firing pin, what's to stop people from simply swapping out pins?
Sheer stupidity. If criminals would be smart, they would be in good jobs and make $$$ instead going in prison for a few bucks.

What bad would it make? If you are law abiding citizen, why would you be afraid to tag your bullets to your gun?

Durandal
04-24-2006, 09:22 AM
Link (http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/14394934.htm)

So just how will this technology stop criminals from using firearms aquired illegally to commit crimes???

Because its NOT a law designed to effect crime. Oh, they may talk it up like it is, but its a gun control measure deliberately targeting law abiding citizens, plain and simple.

I wonder if they'll make the same requirements for black powder. :)

Durandal
04-24-2006, 09:25 AM
What bad would it make? If you are law abiding citizen, why would you be afraid to tag your bullets to your gun?

Yeah, because it would make guns cost more...

You give in once, they get more laws. You fight it constantly and its always a struggle for them.

I decided that many years ago. Even if on the surface the law looks reasonable (which, lets be honest this one is not) fight it...fight it as hard as you can. One law means MANY more.

Only fools think that it would simply stop at signature firing pins.

TacoDelRio
04-24-2006, 10:16 AM
well my personal stance was that kalifornia is already lost and is too deep to fix. i generally expect kalifornia to erupt in some way or another at some point. so i figure since it is a lost cause, i should move to a place that isnt, when i am able, and make a stand where i move. but in all honesty i have not looked in depth at the good vs bad in california and where it is all going. i am just basing my stance on what i see on a daily basis. and since i go into LA regularly, i dont see alot of good.

Ditto.

I can write letters all day long and protest our dumbass laws destroying my pasttime and sports, all in all though it's kinda like jerkin' off, you don't get anywhere, and it's kinda embarrassing.

California is a great state. My friends and family live here, we've got deserts, mountains, beaches, lotsa stuff that's cool. Politically, it's completely anti-gun.

I feel trapped. Maybe I should get a tattoo of a spiderweb on my elbow, with a spider with Diane Feinstein's head on it. :bash: :fork: :slap: :-*$

Kommiefornia is lost as far as I'm concerned. I just hope I cna make enough $$$ to move to Nevada, put my lawnchair at the border and have a beer with Mastermind while we watch the state of Kommiefornia go up in flames.