View Full Version : Officer killed in standoff with teen
NcDeuce
03-13-2004, 12:10 PM
Officer killed in standoff with teen
Teen holding off 150 officers
LENOIR CITY, Tennessee (AP) -- A domestic dispute turned deadly when a heavily armed teen shot and killed a sheriff's deputy and hunkered down inside his family's home, holding about 150 officers at bay, authorities said.
Officers responding to a call Friday morning were turned back by heavy gunfire when they tried to approach the lakeside home. The 16-year-old had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison.
"The only thing we've got out of the house is gunfire," said Knox County Chief Deputy Dwight VanDeVate. "We are still hopeful we get some positive outcome, but we have had absolutely no success whatsoever in establishing contact with the suspect."
Police identified the teen as Michael Harvey.
Officials said they did not plan on moving in on the house until Saturday morning at the earliest.
"At this point, the only response we see out of him is when he starts shooting at officers he sees," Hutchison said. "We hope he will come to some realization that he needs to come out and he needs to surrender."
The length of the standoff prompted authorities to rotate officers in and out of shifts, and some of the teen's relatives were at the house trying to coax Harvey into coming out, a spokeswoman with the Loudon County sheriff's department said early Saturday.
Police said the boy attacked his mother during a Friday morning fight, then fired on officers responding to a 911 call from a neighbor's house.
Deputy Jason Scott, a three-year veteran of the Loudon County sheriff's department, was shot four times. Four other officers received minor injuries from debris when the teenager shot at them as they hid behind a woodpile. The officers have been treated and are fine, police said. The boy's mother was treated at a local hospital and released.
"Deputies answered the call not knowing there were any weapons in the house. Officer Scott was the first one to arrive and was shot as he stepped out of the car," said Loudon County Sheriff Tim Guider.
A SWAT team once made it into the garage before turning back, and robots sent into the house were rebuffed by obstacles inside. Officers also shot tear gas inside the house but there was no response, and the teen did not answer calls or efforts to reach him through a PA system.
Two deputies initially answered the domestic call at the home. The second officer to arrive saw Scott's body, retreated as shots were fired and called for backup.
Officers were able to remove the body of the slain officer, whose wife is expecting their first child. Through tears, Guider described Scott as "a wonderful young man, very lively, very friendly, very outgoing."
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/US/South/03/13/deputy.killed.ap/story.officers.jpg
Two Loudon Police officers react to news that Loudon County Sheriff deputy Jason Scott had been killed Friday in Knoxville, Tennessee
shame sixgun is gone, he could have explained whether he agrees with this kid's version defending his freedom
George W. Bush
03-13-2004, 12:21 PM
This story makes my blood boil! It makes me wonder what kind of drugs the parents put him on!! Another case of parents having NO CLUE how messed up their kids are.
Watch the pinko leftists blame firearms for the deputy's death.
This story makes my blood boil! It makes me wonder what kind of drugs the parents put him on!! Another case of parents having NO CLUE how messed up their kids are.
Watch the pinko leftists blame firearms for the deputy's death.
are you taking over sixgun's role as right wing ****head?
George W. Bush
03-13-2004, 12:28 PM
This story makes my blood boil! It makes me wonder what kind of drugs the parents put him on!! Another case of parents having NO CLUE how messed up their kids are.
Watch the pinko leftists blame firearms for the deputy's death.
are you taking over sixgun's role as right wing ****head?
What? I can't hear you.. lalalalalala
I'll take that as a yes then.
Uncle Chô
03-13-2004, 12:40 PM
16-year-old had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison
Sure, that's the minimum you need for self defence at home :cantbeli:
I am not against having a hand gun or a shotgun for self defense but to allow anyone to carry semi auto and multiple weapons is just f**** stupid :fork:
The kid's father is an assistant DA in Loudon County. The word on the street here in Knoxville is that that relationship is the only reason the 6 SWAT teams at the scene have not "offed" the kid. hard to know if that is right. If I hear anything else I'll let you know.
hank
what does DA stand for? District attorney?
George W. Bush
03-13-2004, 12:51 PM
16-year-old had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison
Sure, that's the minimum you need for self defence at home :cantbeli:
I am not against having a hand gun or a shotgun for self defense but to allow anyone to carry semi auto and multiple weapons is just f**** stupid :fork:
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Maverick77
03-13-2004, 12:51 PM
just ****in kill him
16-year-old had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison
Sure, that's the minimum you need for self defence at home :cantbeli:
I am not against having a hand gun or a shotgun for self defense but to allow anyone to carry semi auto and multiple weapons is just f**** stupid :fork:
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
tell that to the deputy's family
Uncle Chô
03-13-2004, 12:56 PM
UPDATE
LENOIR CITY, Tennessee (AP) -- Scores of officers surrounded a lakeside home Saturday in a standoff with a heavily armed teenager who killed a sheriff's deputy and kept officers at bay for more than a day.
Authorities said they had not had any response from the 16-year-old for several hours and were uncertain whether he was still alive.
"We have a little bit of information that may indicate he is alive, however, we can't confirm that," Loudon County Sheriff Tim Guider said Saturday.
The teen had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines and fired at officers when they approached the house Friday, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison.
Police fired tear gas into the house and used "flash bang" grenades Saturday morning, and had tried contacting the teen during the night with public address loudspeakers.
"We're doing everything we know possible to get some response from this young man," Guider said.
Police identified the teen as Michael Harvey.
Guider said Harvey may have had access to scuba tanks that could allow him to avoid breathing the tear gas.
"We feel if he did use those they would be empty by now, but he may have other devices that we're unaware of," the sheriff said.
The confrontation started Friday morning when officers went to investigate a domestic violence complaint from the boy's mother, who had fled to a neighbor's house. She allegedly was attacked with a pipe when she refused to let the boy drive to school after drinking the night before.
Maybe he'll end up like Uday and Qusay.
Uncle Chô
03-13-2004, 01:03 PM
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Arms to protect your family, I support this point of view.
In the 18th Century way.
But it has never been revised and updated to the current weaponery level.
Multiple weapons, semi auto with dozen of magazine, this is where your arguments are pure B/S :cantbeli:
The only reason is businesses. This is too much easy money for the guns lobby...
George W. Bush
03-13-2004, 01:11 PM
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Arms to protect your family, I support this point of view.
In the 18th Century way.
But it has never been revised and updated to the current weaponery level.
Multiple weapons, semi auto with dozen of magazine, this is where your arguments are pure B/S :cantbeli:
The only reason is businesses. This is too much easy money for the guns lobby...
So the first amendment only applies to printing presses and quills?
Argyll
03-13-2004, 01:17 PM
This story makes my blood boil! It makes me wonder what kind of drugs the parents put him on!! Another case of parents having NO CLUE how messed up their kids are.
Watch the pinko leftists blame firearms for the deputy's death.
At least it's better than blaming it all on the UN!!!! ;)
Uncle Chô
03-13-2004, 01:21 PM
So the first amendment only applies to printing presses and quills?
This is a biased answer "G.W.Bush"...
11F5S
03-13-2004, 01:37 PM
This story makes my blood boil! It makes me wonder what kind of drugs the parents put him on!! Another case of parents having NO CLUE how messed up their kids are.
Watch the pinko leftists blame firearms for the deputy's death.
What kind of drugs do your parents have you on?
The 16-year-old had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison.
Why does a 16 year-old have unfettered access to such firepower.?
It's so funny a 16 year old American isn't allowed to drink one beer but he can posses a semi automatic waepon, you guys crank me up sometimes :lol:
RIP to the officer though
memphiz
03-13-2004, 01:44 PM
jesus christ...
i agree with Uncle Chô, like multiple 30 rounds clips, WTF!. in in Canada if you even own a semi-automatic weapon your only allowed 5 rounds in a clip.
there are WAY to many gun toting red necks, who think they can take on the world.
RIP
Deputy Jason Scott
i hope they take this kid down, like just back a f**king truck through the house and pop the kid
Argyll
03-13-2004, 01:54 PM
This story makes my blood boil! It makes me wonder what kind of drugs the parents put him on!! Another case of parents having NO CLUE how messed up their kids are.
Watch the pinko leftists blame firearms for the deputy's death.
What kind of drugs do your parents have you on?
The 16-year-old had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison.
Why does a 16 year-old have unfettered access to such firepower.?
Perhaps he thought it was Bear hunting season?
On a more serious note,WTF does a 16 year old need any kind of weapon for?Especially semi automatics?
Uncle Chô
03-13-2004, 01:55 PM
I suspect the shooter and "Sixgun Symphony" to be the same person...
When he told his mother he's been banned from this Forum, she's answered : " I told you, you stupid boy ! "
He went out of control, grabbed his weaponery and ... we now know the story ;)
Shake n Bake
03-13-2004, 02:04 PM
...
Argyll
03-13-2004, 02:19 PM
Why does a 16 year-old have unfettered access to such firepower.?
You know the weapon isn't his
stop being a smart ass
No it's you who is being the dumb ass,there's a difference to having access,to "owning" :bash:
11F5S
03-13-2004, 02:45 PM
Welcome back Argyll. :)
Skaman
03-13-2004, 03:37 PM
The gun laws are asinine. Far too often am I hearing of these 'isolated incidents'
To protect your home, all one needs is a shogun or bolt action rifle. A concealed hand gun or automatic weapon in the home is absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to use a handgun, they best be a member of registered gun club.
George W. Bush
03-13-2004, 03:44 PM
To protect your home, all one needs is a shogun or bolt action rifle. A concealed hand gun or automatic weapon in the home is absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to use a handgun, they best be a member of registered gun club.
Yes, in Finnland but not in the USA.
BTW I own many so-called "assault weapons", 3-4 thousand rounds of FMJ 7.62x39, among others. Does this mean I'm a killer? No!
The Euroweenies are so quick to blame the INANIMATE object.
Falco
03-13-2004, 03:47 PM
To protect your home, all one needs is a shogun or bolt action rifle. A concealed hand gun or automatic weapon in the home is absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to use a handgun, they best be a member of registered gun club.
Yes, in Finnland but not in the USA.
BTW I own many so-called "assault weapons", 3-4 thousand rounds of FMJ 7.62x39, among others. Does this mean I'm a killer? No!
The Euroweenies are so quick to blame the INANIMATE object.
He's from Canada :bash:
Argyll
03-13-2004, 03:54 PM
To protect your home, all one needs is a shogun or bolt action rifle. A concealed hand gun or automatic weapon in the home is absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to use a handgun, they best be a member of registered gun club.
Yes, in Finnland but not in the USA.
BTW I own many so-called "assault weapons", 3-4 thousand rounds of FMJ 7.62x39, among others. Does this mean I'm a killer? No!
The Euroweenies are so quick to blame the INANIMATE object.
No but some might question the need to have these type of weapons and that much ammo in your possesion?
I have a .222 Bolt action and 200 rounds of ammo in my home,but I use my rifle for predator control,and it was extremely difficult to obtain the FAC(Fire Arms certificate),my rifle is part of my job,that's the difference,what is the purpose of yours?
memphiz
03-13-2004, 03:57 PM
To protect your home, all one needs is a shogun or bolt action rifle. A concealed hand gun or automatic weapon in the home is absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to use a handgun, they best be a member of registered gun club.
Yes, in Finnland but not in the USA.
BTW I own many so-called "assault weapons", 3-4 thousand rounds of FMJ 7.62x39, among others. Does this mean I'm a killer? No!
The Euroweenies are so quick to blame the INANIMATE object.
No but some might question the need to have these type of weapons and that much ammo in your possesion?
I have a .222 Bolt action and 200 rounds of ammo in my home,but I use my rifle for predator control,and it was extremely difficult to obtain the FAC(Fire Arms certificate),my rifle is part of my job,that's the difference,what is the purpose of yours?
to protect his home with wheels from a 'coon invasion ;)
George W. Bush
03-13-2004, 03:57 PM
To protect your home, all one needs is a shogun or bolt action rifle. A concealed hand gun or automatic weapon in the home is absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to use a handgun, they best be a member of registered gun club.
Yes, in Finnland but not in the USA.
BTW I own many so-called "assault weapons", 3-4 thousand rounds of FMJ 7.62x39, among others. Does this mean I'm a killer? No!
The Euroweenies are so quick to blame the INANIMATE object.
He's from Canada :bash:
Please forgive me. I haven't slept in 36 hours plus I've been working outside in the sun for 3-4 hours.
Argyll
03-13-2004, 03:58 PM
To protect your home, all one needs is a shogun or bolt action rifle. A concealed hand gun or automatic weapon in the home is absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to use a handgun, they best be a member of registered gun club.
Yes, in Finnland but not in the USA.
BTW I own many so-called "assault weapons", 3-4 thousand rounds of FMJ 7.62x39, among others. Does this mean I'm a killer? No!
The Euroweenies are so quick to blame the INANIMATE object.
He's from Canada :bash:
Please forgive me. I haven't slept in 36 hours plus I've been working outside in the sun for 3-4 hours.
Go and get yerself some cold ones from the fridge crack them open and chillout
George W. Bush
03-13-2004, 03:59 PM
my rifle is part of my job,that's the difference,what is the purpose of yours?
Mine is a deterrent against tyranny.
Yard Ape
03-13-2004, 03:59 PM
The gun laws are asinine. Far too often am I hearing of these 'isolated incidents'
To protect your home, all one needs is a shogun or bolt action rifle. A concealed hand gun or automatic weapon in the home is absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to use a handgun, they best be a member of registered gun club.This is not a kid with an automatic weapon. It is a kid with a semiautomatic weapon. Don't confuse the two.
Yes a shotgun would be a good weapon to defend one's home.
Bolt action rilfe? The M16 is a magazine fed gas operated bolt action rifle. Is this what you mean? I suspect you mean manual bolt action (with or without magazine). I support ownership of semi-automatic weapons but with limitation on magazine capacity (5 rounds). This kid has acccess to multiple magazines, but the frequent change requirments would reduce his tactical advatage.
Why are hand guns inappropriate? If you are going to use a fire arm for home defence this seems like a logical choice. Especially when one considers the reduced risk of the round penetrating the target, furniture, walls, floors, etc and killing unintended people.
Yard Ape
03-13-2004, 04:01 PM
my rifle is part of my job,that's the difference,what is the purpose of yours?
Mine is a deterant against tyranny.What tyranny?
Argyll
03-13-2004, 04:03 PM
my rifle is part of my job,that's the difference,what is the purpose of yours?
Mine is a deterant against tyranny.What tyranny?
I believe Tyrannies are just like racoons only bigger ;)
Uncle Chô
03-13-2004, 04:10 PM
BTW I own many so-called "assault weapons", 3-4 thousand rounds of FMJ 7.62x39, among others. Does this mean I'm a killer? No!
You may not be a killer but you have a problem of some kind. Maybe you had a problem in your childhood that could explain your compulsive need to stock weapons and ammo... rofl
We are all potential killers. Ever seen Joel Schumacher's film FALLING DOWN with Michael Douglas ? ;)
The Euroweenies are so quick to blame the INANIMATE object.
Why always oppose USA vs Europe ?? This is my personal opinion. Nothing to do with origin :cantbeli:
Salty Dog
03-13-2004, 04:10 PM
my rifle is part of my job,that's the difference,what is the purpose of yours?
Mine is a deterant against tyranny.What tyranny?
I believe Tyrannies are just like racoons only bigger ;)
yeah, we used to have a big ole nasty tyranny under our porch, until paw shot it with his sling shot, heeeyuk! :P
memphiz
03-13-2004, 04:12 PM
my rifle is part of my job,that's the difference,what is the purpose of yours?
Mine is a deterant against tyranny.What tyranny?
I believe Tyrannies are just like racoons only bigger ;)
yeah, we used to have a big ole nasty tyranny under our porch, until paw shot it with his sling shot, heeeyuk! :P
rofl
Skaman
03-13-2004, 04:14 PM
my rifle is part of my job,that's the difference,what is the purpose of yours?
Mine is a deterant against tyranny.What tyranny?
I believe Tyrannies are just like racoons only bigger ;)
yeah, we used to have a big ole nasty tyranny under our porch, until paw shot it with his sling shot, heeeyuk! :P
haha
Uncle Chô
03-13-2004, 04:15 PM
I believe Tyrannies are just like racoons only bigger ;)
rofl rofl A suggestion to Argyll : why don't you go off the Forum more often ? And come back more often with such a good one woot
You made my day ! :D
George W. Bush
03-13-2004, 04:16 PM
You may not be a killer but you have a problem of some kind. Maybe you had a problem in your childhood that could explain your compulsive need to stock weapons and ammo... rofl
Tell that to the millions of law-abiding Americans who own so-called "semi-automatic assault weapons." rofl
Uncle Chô
03-13-2004, 04:27 PM
Tell that to the millions of law-abiding Americans who own so-called "semi-automatic assault weapons." rofl
True. The average citizen stocks a few thousand rounds for his half dozen semi-auto.
Another biased answer.
Take the easy way : why don't you confess you have a fascination for guns, rifles, all those weapons and their extra ammos that make you self-confident ? ;)
Do I ? Sorry, I don't but I have 3 different MTB. And I shoot crossbow on outdoor fixed target. Some kind of perversion too.
George W. Bush
03-13-2004, 04:33 PM
About 15% of all firearms sold in the U.S. are semi-automatics.
what does DA stand for? District attorney?
That is correct.
hank
The gun laws are asinine. Far too often am I hearing of these 'isolated incidents'
To protect your home, all one needs is a shogun or bolt action rifle. A concealed hand gun or automatic weapon in the home is absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to use a handgun, they best be a member of registered gun club.
"home protection" is not used in our constitution anywhere. If people think is is such a problem then amend. Let's not forget that he was drunk and beat up his mother which prompted the police to come by in the fiorst place. Is it the presence of the gun that caused the problem? Maybe, but even without the gun there was a problem, the gun just facilitated the fatality.
Scott's wife has been on the tube here. She is pregnant. Really sad - whatever your feelings about guns - this is not an acceptable result. Really has hit home for the wife that this family - right before the new baby came - now is Dadless. :(
hank
I don't know if anybody posted this but I thought I would mention that the kid is dead. Self-inflicted gun shot wound.
hank
memphiz
03-13-2004, 08:41 PM
I don't know if anybody posted this but I thought I would mention that the kid is dead. Self-inflicted gun shot wound.
hank
yeah i just saw that on the news
Sayeret
03-13-2004, 09:08 PM
Yeah I have to agree that some weapons shouldn't be given to civilians. I've been to gun shows before and its crazy what you can buy there. Such as .50 barrett sniper rifles. Also I think civilians shouldn't be allowed to buy body armor, silencers(which you are allowed to buy with a permit), and full automaic weapons(which you can buy also if you own a permit).
jprichard
03-13-2004, 09:47 PM
There are no good or bad guns. Any gun or weapon in the wrong hands is a threat to society. This kid could have just as easily killed a policeman with a bolt action rifle. He could have stood back and picked them off one by one like Alvin York did Germans or Carlos Hathcock did Viet-Cong. The semi-auomatics and their 30 rnd clips gave him know advantage unless the police were rushing him in mass. The kid should not have had access to any gun period! When Americans say that these are isolated incidents in our country remember there are some 20 million handguns in private possession and 20 million long guns. The vast majority are never used for any malicious reason.
fisheyestudio
03-13-2004, 11:10 PM
Hey howdy hey!
Wow, there sure is alot of negative comments towards gun owners, the second ammendment, and the stereo-typical "southerner". I own several firearms and a large quantity of ammo for those arms. I have a couple swords, two compound bows and a spear. I am also a devout Christian who believes the bible is the inspired word of God and is to be taken literally. Hmmmm, and I live in Kentucky. Putting me into the stereo-type wouldnt be too difficult.
When I unlock my gun case and take out a weapon, I am aware of the responsibility that my action entails. I enjoy the fact that I am able to own and use these weapons. I respect that fact that the founders of my country realized the importance of granting me the ultimate freedom of speech, by allowing me to arm myself so that I might not be easliy overcome by tyranny(from criminals or a government).
I appriciate the intelligent humor from some posts, but the condesending attitude that is displayed towards those of us who choose to act upon our freedom to own and be proficient with firearms, is offensive. (but it doesnt offend me personally, I have really thick skin lol)
Jesus blessings!
chris holloman
Dennis G
03-14-2004, 12:24 AM
what happened to Sixgun?
got banned then came back as hawke
mocking_loudly_died
03-14-2004, 12:54 AM
Now he is 10,000 feet underground in a bunker constantly repeating the following:
"Those commie bastards booted me, but I know the bombs are coming.....mother smells pretty......oh so pretty" along with other disturbing nonsensical mumblings.
Merik
03-14-2004, 01:00 AM
Now he is 10,000 feet underground in a bunker constantly repeating the following:
"Those commie bastards booted me, but I know the bombs are coming.....mother smells pretty......oh so pretty" along with other disturbing nonsensical mumblings.
Its commie "rat" bastards mocking, commie "rat" bastards.
Trigger
03-14-2004, 01:05 AM
The 16-year-old had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison.
Why does a 16 year-old have unfettered access to such firepower.?
Maybe because mommy and daddy would rather give him Ritalin or some other drug to keep him quiet instead of spending some time with him, showing some interest in his development or generally giving a **** what he's up to. Surprise, surprise...guess who found daddy's guns, guess who's prescription just ran out, and guess who needs attention?
(No, not me ;) )
This isn't a flame, but I'd be willing to bet it's not too far from the truth.
Parents would rather just drug their kids than discipline them and they are so shocked when the kids lash out.
RIP to the deputy who has paid for their complacency.
TehVice
03-14-2004, 01:15 AM
"Yeah I have to agree that some weapons shouldn't be given to civilians. I've been to gun shows before and its crazy what you can buy there. Such as .50 barrett sniper rifles. Also I think civilians shouldn't be allowed to buy body armor, silencers(which you are allowed to buy with a permit), and full automaic weapons(which you can buy also if you own a permit)."
No .50 cal rifle (save muzzle loading muskets) has ever been used in a violent crime in the United States.
The process you have to go through to legally possess a suppressor ("silencer" is a term used by the firearm-ignorant) or automatic weapon is long, expensive and complicated. There's a lengthy 90 day federal backround check, a $200 tax on each weapon/suppressor, the CLEO (chief law enforcement officer) in your area must also approve the transfer. Once you get past all that, automatic weapons are not at all cheap. I believe the price for a transferable AK47 is somewhere around $11,000.
After all that, do you know how many registered automatic weapons have been used in violent crimes in the United States? 1. And the crime was commited by a police officer.
If a criminal wants to use an automatic weapon, he's not going to go through all that, and pay the outrageous prices for one. They're bought illegally, and cheaply.
Also, to those arguing that civilians should not be allowed to own ammunition feeding devices with a capacity exceeding 5, or 10 rounds, your arguments are null and void. A study conducted by the CDC (I believe if was the CDC. It may of been the BATF) found that restrictions placed on said feeding devices had no effect on the amount of killings where multiple rounds were fired.
In conclusion, it is my belief that arguments favoring gun control are most often made by those who are ignorant (It's not an insult, look it up.) on the subject of how firearms function, and do not look to the future to see how gun control laws will effect people.
Backis
03-14-2004, 02:50 AM
Mine is a deterrent against tyranny.
So, if Kerry wins and decides to go postal on yer ass, exactly how are those plinkers gonna help you against that M1A2 parking on your lawn?
Backis
03-14-2004, 03:00 AM
No .50 cal rifle (save muzzle loading muskets) has ever been used in a violent crime in the United States.
Waco... at least the Davidians fired one through the wall against the entering DEA team.
Maybe they were "just defending their property".. ;)
TehVice
03-14-2004, 03:25 AM
"Violent crime". No hit = no violence.
Even if there had been a hit, one misuse of a firearm by a criminal does not justify banning it. .50 rifles are large, akward, and expensive. I'd say that's the last thing your average criminal looks for in a weapon.
And even if they did become more widely used and were banned, criminals would still find ways to get them. Drugs are banned, but I know that I'd have no trouble finding some if I were so inclined.
One has to realize that criminals don't obey laws. That's why they're criminals.
Backis
03-14-2004, 04:03 AM
"Violent crime". No hit = no violence.
I think you are pretty alone believing in that extremely narrow interpretation...
And do you have access to the autopsy reports of the killed ATF (I can't believe I wrote DEA was involved in this... :roll: :lol: ) agents btw?
Even if there had been a hit, one misuse of a firearm by a criminal does not justify banning it. .50 rifles are large, akward, and expensive. I'd say that's the last thing your average criminal looks for in a weapon.
I only commented on the use of .50cal's in regards to violent crime. It would be a lot better to ban handguns if crime is the target (I'd take a shotgun for home defese any day, its a lot better for it anyway...).
Longarms are hard to conceal. Handguns any guy with clothing on can hide.
Not that I'm suggesting banning handguns either... my view is that handguns should require a license much the same as cars do. Both cars and guns are potentially very dangerous machinery.
And even if they did become more widely used and were banned, criminals would still find ways to get them. Drugs are banned, but I know that I'd have no trouble finding some if I were so inclined.
YEAH! Legalize drugs too then! And child molestation! Some people will always do these things regardless of laws! :roll:
Nonsense argument.
One has to realize that criminals don't obey laws. That's why they're criminals.
And your opinion seem to be to have no laws since someone will always break them?
11F5S
03-14-2004, 09:11 AM
The 16-year-old had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison.
Why does a 16 year-old have unfettered access to such firepower.?
Maybe because mommy and daddy would rather give him Ritalin or some other drug to keep him quiet instead of spending some time with him, showing some interest in his development or generally giving a **** what he's up to. Surprise, surprise...guess who found daddy's guns, guess who's prescription just ran out, and guess who needs attention?
(No, not me ;) )
This isn't a flame, but I'd be willing to bet it's not too far from the truth.
Parents would rather just drug their kids than discipline them and they are so shocked when the kids lash out.
RIP to the deputy who has paid for their complacency.
You didn't answer my question.
There has been nothing reported that even remotely suggests that the boy was on Ritalan..... "Ed Sullivan, the teen's youth minister at United Church of Christ Church of the Savior in Knoxville, told The Knoxville News Sentinel that Harvey slit his wrists last fall and spent some time in Peninsula Hospital, a mental health facility.
Still, Sulivan said he was shocked. "He's a quiet kid, a gentle kid,'' Sullivan said"
That doesn't sound like a Ritalin kid to me.
We do not know all the facts in the case...all we have to go on is what has been reported. As far as I have read nothing has been reported to indicate that he was on drugs like Ritalan...One report said "The confrontation started Friday morning when officers went to investigate a domestic violence complaint from the boy's mother, who had fled to a neighbor's house. She allegedly was attacked with a pipe when she refused to let the boy drive to school after drinking the night before"
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/8182006.htm
The real issue here is how and why did a 16 year old have access to the weapon(s) and ammunition in the first place. Were they his fathers? If so why weren't they under lock and key?
Gun ownership comes with responsibilities, if they were his father's weapons he should be held accountable for the murder of the police officer.
My dad was an FBI Agent. At home, all his firearms and ammunition were kept in a safe. I remember when one of the other agents in his office was fired by the bureau because his young son was caught playing with one of his weapons (unloaded) in a neighbors backyard.
The 16-year-old had semiautomatic weapons with multiple 30-round magazines, said Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison.
Why does a 16 year-old have unfettered access to such firepower.?
Maybe because mommy and daddy would rather give him Ritalin or some other drug to keep him quiet instead of spending some time with him, showing some interest in his development or generally giving a **** what he's up to. Surprise, surprise...guess who found daddy's guns, guess who's prescription just ran out, and guess who needs attention?
(No, not me ;) )
This isn't a flame, but I'd be willing to bet it's not too far from the truth.
Parents would rather just drug their kids than discipline them and they are so shocked when the kids lash out.
RIP to the deputy who has paid for their complacency.
Well, Trigger, that's not really fair. From everything that is printed here in Knoxville, about 10 miles from where this happened, that is an unfair characterization of this kid. He had problems with clinical depression which we know is a chemical reaction in the brain. All accounts, from his Principal, his Pasto, The Loudon County Sheriff, his friends, the (th Judicial District DA, etc. are that Michael harvery was a good kid who"snapped".
I took the first part of hte bar yesterday morning and one of the second year students who took it with me knows ADA Harvery (the kid's father) well. He is despondent about the whole thing to be sure. These were good parents who actively sought, and thought they got help at Peninsula Mental Health Facility, for thier clinically-depressed son.
I don't mean to jump on you, I I am pretty sure you know that, but let's not lump Harvey in with the Columbine boys - b/c its not correct at this point.
Just for the record also, the News-Sentinal reported that the weapon was either and AK-47 clone or an SKS that had been modified to accept 30 rounds.
hank
As for all the Eurpoeans who are talking about the "need" for guns and this crap. Read our damned constitution - we can't ban some or any. The idea that b/c you don't have guns in Europe means that nobody needs them is spurious. The very reason that we have a 2nd Amendment is b/c we got tired of your damned kings and queens running roughshod over us.
Now - that is the last words about the 2nd A that I will type here and I suggest that you all do the same. Two people are dead. This is neither the time nor place to talk about this. Make another thread if you want to debate the second amendment and I'll argue all damned day.
hank
Argyll
03-14-2004, 10:33 AM
Tell me something Hank,are there not Victims groups who suffered at the hands of Gun crime campaigning to get the Law changed?
Constitution or not ...........something went wrong here,and 2 people are dead because of Firearms
There are more people killed by Firearms related crime on a daily basis,than to that of terrorism,don't you feel that the victims of these crimes(Guns) need to be listened to.
Drugs +Alcahol+Guns=Recipe for disaster.
If the Laws were the same here,would I have Firarms in my house to "protect" my family..........I would have to say no,taking the Law into your own hands is also a recipe for disaster
Not to forget that a Scots best defense is just to pull up their skirt...
11F5S
03-14-2004, 11:25 AM
Just for the record also, the News-Sentinal reported that the weapon was either and AK-47 clone or an SKS that had been modified to accept 30 rounds.
1. Who's the owner of the weapon?
2. For the gun law experts here .....Is such "modification" legal under US, Tennessee, and local law?
As you're always so nitpicking: ex-owner. Current owner is propably the PD. ;)
RIP to the dead policeman. Very sad.
11F5S
03-14-2004, 11:37 AM
As you're always so nitpicking: ex-owner. Current owner is propably the PD. ;)
My experience in intel and SF leads me to pick nits because it saves face and more importantly it saves lives.
Wrong.....at least in the United States
To my knowlege the legal ownership of personal property isn't effected due to it being held as evidence. Law Enforcement has custody not ownership.
RIP to the dead policeman. Very sad.
Very sad and in this case very preventable.
Well the weapon was used in a murder on a police officer, so you can be sure the weapon is not only evidence but also confiscated (you don't think they'd give it back to the owner after it's been used to kill a police officer), so I suppose that would bring ownership to the PD.
Of course I might be wrong, but that's my take on it.
Trigger
03-14-2004, 02:21 PM
You didn't answer my question. I didn't answer because I simply don't know. Any answer would have been an assumption on my part. What I stated was my knee jerk reaction/opinion.
There has been nothing reported that even remotely suggests that the boy was on Ritalan..... "Ed Sullivan, the teen's youth minister at United Church of Christ Church of the Savior in Knoxville, told The Knoxville News Sentinel that Harvey slit his wrists last fall and spent some time in Peninsula Hospital, a mental health facility. I'll just echo your sentiments here: Why would this kid have access?
Still, Sulivan said he was shocked. "He's a quiet kid, a gentle kid,'' Sullivan said" ...who tried to slit his wrists at least once and is drinking underage with his parents (apparent) knowledge??
That doesn't sound like a Ritalin kid to me.
We do not know all the facts in the case...all we have to go on is what has been reported. As far as I have read nothing has been reported to indicate that he was on drugs like Ritalan...One report said "The confrontation started Friday morning when officers went to investigate a domestic violence complaint from the boy's mother, who had fled to a neighbor's house. She allegedly was attacked with a pipe when she refused to let the boy drive to school after drinking the night before"
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/8182006.htm
The real issue here is how and why did a 16 year old have access to the weapon(s) and ammunition in the first place. Were they his fathers? If so why weren't they under lock and key?
Gun ownership comes with responsibilities, if they were his father's weapons he should be held accountable for the murder of the police officer.
My dad was an FBI Agent. At home, all his firearms and ammunition were kept in a safe. I remember when one of the other agents in his office was fired by the bureau because his young son was caught playing with one of his weapons (unloaded) in a neighbors backyard.
My main point was that HIS PARENTS are the ones who are responsible. There was obviously some kind of 'disconnect' here. A 16 year old kid who is known to be depressed/suicidal is out drinking and he has access to any kind of weapon does not paint a pretty picture of his parents. You don't need any more evidence to draw that conclusion. I don't mean to attack you or hank or the kids parents for that matter, but they DID drop the ball in this case.
TehVice
03-14-2004, 02:59 PM
"And do you have access to the autopsy reports of the killed ATF (I can't believe I wrote DEA was involved in this... ) agents btw?"
No, I don't. Do you have access to the BATF reports on what weapons were found inside? How do you know it was even a .50?
"I only commented on the use of .50cal's in regards to violent crime. It would be a lot better to ban handguns if crime is the target (I'd take a shotgun for home defense any day, its a lot better for it anyway...)."
It is much easier to maneuver in confined spaces with a handgun. Not to mention shotguns have limited capacities, and take longer to reload than handguns. With a handgun, should you happen to be a horrible shot you can make quick follow up shots if you were to miss.
"Longarms are hard to conceal. Handguns any guy with clothing on can hide.
Not that I'm suggesting banning handguns either... my view is that handguns should require a license much the same as cars do. Both cars and guns are potentially very dangerous machinery."
Yes... But do you really for a second believe that those who wish to do harm with handguns are going to get a license? I know the criminals now who carry handguns don't bother to get concealed carry permits (Yes, you can get those is most of the U.S.).
"YEAH! Legalize drugs too then! And child molestation! Some people will always do these things regardless of laws!"
That is a different subject all together. Banning guns hurts people. I have heard numerous accounts of people defending their lives, and the lives of their families with firearms. Had the firearms of been banned, they would not of had them, but their attackers still would of. Remember, criminals don't follow laws.
Comparing banning guns to banning child molestation is horrible. Banning child molestation hurts no one, and allows us to punish those horrible people who hurt children.
"And your opinion seem to be to have no laws since someone will always break them?"
Not once did I say that, don't put words in my mouth. My opinion is that banning guns takes them away from those who use them for self defense. And even if you're not for banning them, licensing is still ridiculous, it would do no good. I believe the main argument for this (licensing) is "It helps police track down the criminal after a crime". As I've said before, do you really think that those who plan to commit crimes with weapons are going to get a license for them? I'd say that any firearm that was traced back to a license holder was most likely stolen from them.
The point is, the laws you have in Europe work for you, and the laws we have over here work for us. There is no way the U.S. will ever adopt a European stance on firearm control. I'm not saying that any country in Europe should change it's laws regarding firearms. If the majority of people there want gun control, that's great, go for it. Do what ever you want. What I am saying is don't tell us that we need to change our laws.
jprichard
03-14-2004, 03:54 PM
There was at least one Barrett .50 at the Waco compund. An FBI sniper talked about seeing it through his scope on documentary on the History Channel. What was stupid was that the government tried to raid the compound knowing that the Davidians were heavily armed and there were
innocent children inside. A hidden surveillence team could have simply watched and waited until Koresh left the compund and then arrested him.
This would have been less messy than the full frontal assault they tried.
Let's move this gun talk to the new thread I started - there are two dead people who are teh subject of this thread.
I started a new thread just now about respecting the dead and the 2nd A
hank
Nawlins
03-14-2004, 04:20 PM
There has been nothing reported that even remotely suggests that the boy was on Ritalan..... "Ed Sullivan, the teen's youth minister at United Church of Christ Church of the Savior in Knoxville, told The Knoxville News Sentinel that Harvey slit his wrists last fall and spent some time in Peninsula Hospital, a mental health facility.
Still, Sulivan said he was shocked. "He's a quiet kid, a gentle kid,'' Sullivan said"
Sounds like depression or even bipolar disorder... not ADHD.
He had problems with clinical depression which we know is a chemical reaction in the brain.
Not quite. We don't "know" it's a chemical reaction in the brain... it's been associated with chemical imbalances, but no one knows if the imbalance is a cause or an effect of the depression. We're not sure why antidepressants work, either, but for most people they do. It's possible that for this kid, they weren't working, or he was on the wrong dose or the wrong type of drug, or that he was only on medication and not in therapy... any one of those is a psychologically volatile situation, and I'm not surprised that he snapped.
My problem here is that someone with a known problem with depression and suicide attempts had access to firearms. That's tempting fate in the worst kind of way. Anyone with common sense would take the weapons out of the house after the first time he attempted suicide.
There has been nothing reported that even remotely suggests that the boy was on Ritalan..... "Ed Sullivan, the teen's youth minister at United Church of Christ Church of the Savior in Knoxville, told The Knoxville News Sentinel that Harvey slit his wrists last fall and spent some time in Peninsula Hospital, a mental health facility.
Still, Sulivan said he was shocked. "He's a quiet kid, a gentle kid,'' Sullivan said"
Sounds like depression or even bipolar disorder... not ADHD.
He had problems with clinical depression which we know is a chemical reaction in the brain.
Not quite. We don't "know" it's a chemical reaction in the brain... it's been associated with chemical imbalances, but no one knows if the imbalance is a cause or an effect of the depression. We're not sure why antidepressants work, either, but for most people they do. It's possible that for this kid, they weren't working, or he was on the wrong dose or the wrong type of drug, or that he was only on medication and not in therapy... any one of those is a psychologically volatile situation, and I'm not surprised that he snapped.
My problem here is that someone with a known problem with depression and suicide attempts had access to firearms. That's tempting fate in the worst kind of way. Anyone with common sense would take the weapons out of the house after the first time he attempted suicide.
Not to take issue, but depression is always caused byt hte lack of a certain chemical in the brain - whether your brain does not make the chemical, or your drug use destroys your brain's ability to make that checmical or a series of traumatice events cause your brain to stop production - none of that changes the fact that depressions is always the product of chemical imbalance.
This kid had been committed on more than one occasion.
Good point on the access - I would agree on that. That is certainly comething Mr. and Mrs. Harvey are grappling with right now, I bet.
Be careful with common sense, excellent hindsight is very "common" = while predicting the future actiosn of anybody can be a challenge. Mr. and Mrs. Harvey are good people who are the parents of a child that did a bad thing.
hank
11F5S
03-14-2004, 05:36 PM
Tennessee Law
Child Access Prevention:
Tennessee prohibits a parent or guardian from intentionally, knowingly or recklessly providing a handgun to a juvenile (defined as any person less than 18 years of age, per Tenn. Code § 39-17-1319(a)(2)) or permitting a juvenile to possess a handgun, if such parent or guardian knows of a substantial risk that such juvenile will use a handgun to commit a felony. Section 39-17-1320(b).
Tennessee also prohibits any person 18 years of age or older, including a parent or other legal guardian, who knows that a minor or student is in illegal possession of a firearm in or upon the premises of a public or private school, in or on such school’s athletic stadium or other facility or building where school sponsored athletic events are conducted, or a public park, playground or civic center, from failing to prevent the firearms possession or failing to report it to the appropriate school or law enforcement officials. Section 39-17-1312(a).
Locking Devices
No relevant statutes currently exist.
Large-Capacity Ammunition Magazines
No relevant statutes currently exist
Source:
http://www.firearmslawcenter.org/content/tennessee.asp#top
Federal Law.
18. 18 U.S.C. § 922(x)(2), (3) and (5).
Federal law also prohibits firearms dealers from selling or delivering a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any person the dealer knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 18. 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1), (c)(1). Dealers are prohibited from selling or delivering other firearms (e.g., handguns) or ammunition for those firearms to any person the dealer knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 21. Id
Federal law provides less stringent age restrictions with respect to sales by unlicensed persons. Unlicensed persons generally may not sell, deliver or otherwise transfer a handgun or handgun ammunition to any person the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 18. 18 U.S.C. § 922(x)(1), (3) and (5). Federal law provides no age limitations with respect to the sale of a long gun by an unlicensed person.
mocking_loudly_died
03-14-2004, 05:40 PM
Collect **** not guns.
Nawlins
03-14-2004, 07:41 PM
There has been nothing reported that even remotely suggests that the boy was on Ritalan..... "Ed Sullivan, the teen's youth minister at United Church of Christ Church of the Savior in Knoxville, told The Knoxville News Sentinel that Harvey slit his wrists last fall and spent some time in Peninsula Hospital, a mental health facility.
Still, Sulivan said he was shocked. "He's a quiet kid, a gentle kid,'' Sullivan said"
Sounds like depression or even bipolar disorder... not ADHD.
He had problems with clinical depression which we know is a chemical reaction in the brain.
Not quite. We don't "know" it's a chemical reaction in the brain... it's been associated with chemical imbalances, but no one knows if the imbalance is a cause or an effect of the depression. We're not sure why antidepressants work, either, but for most people they do. It's possible that for this kid, they weren't working, or he was on the wrong dose or the wrong type of drug, or that he was only on medication and not in therapy... any one of those is a psychologically volatile situation, and I'm not surprised that he snapped.
My problem here is that someone with a known problem with depression and suicide attempts had access to firearms. That's tempting fate in the worst kind of way. Anyone with common sense would take the weapons out of the house after the first time he attempted suicide.
Not to take issue, but depression is always caused byt hte lack of a certain chemical in the brain - whether your brain does not make the chemical, or your drug use destroys your brain's ability to make that checmical or a series of traumatice events cause your brain to stop production - none of that changes the fact that depressions is always the product of chemical imbalance.
This kid had been committed on more than one occasion.
Good point on the access - I would agree on that. That is certainly comething Mr. and Mrs. Harvey are grappling with right now, I bet.
Be careful with common sense, excellent hindsight is very "common" = while predicting the future actiosn of anybody can be a challenge. Mr. and Mrs. Harvey are good people who are the parents of a child that did a bad thing.
hank
Take issue all you want, but last time I checked, I was the one with a degree in psychology. Thanks.
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