British para's fight in Baghdad using American gear and weapons, and they love it

[Jeremiah]

US calls in Paras for Baghdad secret war
By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 24/04/2006)

British paratroopers secretly operating in support of the SAS in Iraq are using American uniforms, weapons and vehicles as part of their cover, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

Although John Reid, the Defence Secretary, only announced this week that the Special Forces Support Group (SFSG) had become operational, a company of more than 100 paratroopers has been working for six months in Baghdad. They have reportedly become so successful that American special forces have called on their help.

The SFSG was formed mainly because it was found that small groups of highly trained SAS troopers did not have enough firepower to take on large groups of Iraqi and Afghan terrorists. The unit has already seen a substantial amount of action in Baghdad.

Whenever the SAS goes on raids to apprehend terrorists in highly dangerous areas of Baghdad, the Paras are used to provide perimeter security.

Arriving in US Humvees, dressed in American army fatigues and armed with C7 Diemaco guns - a Canadian made version of the M16, the men have fought several battles with insurgents while protecting SAS colleagues.

"The SAS are doing the smash and grab but all the contacts are happening on the perimeter and there are a serious amount of rounds going down the range," a Parachute Regiment source said.

"They are making a really good name for themselves with the Hereford blokes and the Americans. If the **** hits the fan and the SAS need them, the boys are there as a quick reaction force."

The troops were also believed to have been used to provide a security cordon as part of Task Force Maroon when the SAS rescued the peace campaigner Norman Kember and two other hostages.

The troops deployed to Baghdad at the end of last year after undergoing specialist training at the SAS headquarters in Hereford, including the use of American weapons and equipment.

"They wear US uniforms so they can blend in in Baghdad where a British paratrooper would stick out and draw unwanted attention," an intelligence source said.

"But they don't have their hair cuts 'high and tight', don't strut around like Americans and are certainly not trying to speak with American accents. They are loving it with all the American kit, and you can't keep them out of the PX shop [US military duty-free shops]."

The SFSG is mainly based on the 500 men of the 1 Bn The Parachute Regiment supplemented by a company of about 100 Royal Marines and a similar number of men from the RAF Regiment.

The group is based at St Athan, near Cardiff.

www.telegraph.co.uk . . .

[joshfox0]

:lol: oh well i've got no problem with this slong as it keeps our boys safe.

[ollie]

i think this is great and just shows how people are wrong when they say us brits our out of our leauge in places like Baghdad

[martinexsquaddie]

there usuing us gear so so amricens don't shoot at them

[++boss^is^dead++]

Damn right, anything that helps the boys do there thing gets a thumbs up from me!Wonder how they feel about wearing the uniform though? p-)

[Roaming East]

... don't strut around like Americans . . .
pshht, then they arent fooling anyone. Part of the intensive training US troops get is 'da walk'. If you aint got it, then you're making yourself suspect lol

[joshfox0]

pshht, then they arent fooling anyone. Part of the intensive training US troops get is 'da walk'. If you aint got it, then you're making yourself suspect lol

roflniiice

[RGRBOX]

Hooah...

"1Para Leads the Way"

[theclash]

British paratroopers secretly operating in support of the SAS in Iraq are using American uniforms

...not so secretly anymore then.

They've got my support either way.

[Nightsky]

cool ... taking a couple of recent threats into account, I've heard of Americans running around with AKs, British in American gear, insurgents in civilian clothes - sounds like a big "guess who I am" game p-)

On a more serious note, if the British think it's helping their safety, let them do so.

N.

[tumbler]

I bet the local pubs in bagdad are the ones most benifiting fom the presence of the Para's..............................I can see a book/film on the cards portraying the life of a para in the thick of such situation: BARHEAD

[C3F]

The BRITS do a fantastic job, this from a YANK that works with them quite a bit!

I know it's a BRIT thread but don't forget the AUSSIES, ITALIANS and every other coalition member that's here. They make life easier for us YANKS and perform at the highest levels!

C3F

[EsoognomEhT]

Those PX shops certainly are decent..except some woman stopped me in one and asked what I thought about Queen Camilla :|:|



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/24/nparas24.xml

[Name Taken]

"can't keep them out of the PX shop"

that detail right there tells me there is some truth to the story, probably a lot better than the naafi woot

[DeltaWhisky58]

As we always told you - the best in town ;-)

"Operation Maroon" - well, that isn't exactly subtle in my book, but it tells a story. Shame about having to wear US uniform, but I suppose it does make operational sense.

[XShipRider]

British paratroopers secretly operating in support of the SAS in Iraq are using American uniforms, weapons and vehicles as part of their cover, The Daily Telegraph has learned.emphasis added by me

So much for secrecy. No worries, I'm sure the enemy doesn't read the Telegraph anyway.:roll:

[EffJi]

I bet the local pubs in bagdad are the ones most benifiting fom the presence of the Para's..............................I can see a book/film on the cards portraying the life of a para in the thick of such situation: BARHEAD

Pubs in baghdad? You do know that muslims don't drink, right?
Well, maybe now that Saddam is gone, distributers of alcohol are no longer hung and decapitated.

[RGRBOX]

The Catholic communities in Iraq have had these kinds of places for a while know.. Iraq was a pretty liberal place when it came to some stuff.. women were allowed to live without the veil etc...

[JustYourAverageJoe]

Thats a pretty interesting read doesent make too much sense to me but whatever works, works I guess.

[Yarrick2]

Pubs in baghdad? You do know that muslims don't drink, right?
Well, maybe now that Saddam is gone, distributers of alcohol are no longer hung and decapitated. heh saddam actually ran quite a few distilleries in iraq seeing how his regime was a secular one not a religious one (as the rest of the arabic world would see it). so why would he hang people working for him? i would think the the workers at the aforementioned plants would be running now that theres all those militias running around now.

[Gordon]

Thats a pretty interesting read doesent make too much sense to me but whatever works, works I guess.

Which bit doesn't make sense?

[EsoognomEhT]

As we always told you - the best in town ;-)

"Operation Maroon" - well, that isn't exactly subtle in my book, but it tells a story. Shame about having to wear US uniform, but I suppose it does make operational sense.

Maybe they are trying to better the image of the US army p-)

[baboon6]

Pubs in baghdad? You do know that muslims don't drink, right?
Well, maybe now that Saddam is gone, distributers of alcohol are no longer hung and decapitated.

Actually from most accounts it's harder to get a drink now in Baghdad than it was under Saddam (himself apparently quite a large consumer of Johnnie Walker). Alcohol has never been illegal in Iraq.

[Royal]

Well, maybe now that Saddam is gone, distributers of alcohol are no longer hung and decapitated.

No, nowadays the favourite method of dealing with them is a power drill or a bullet to the back of the head. So much for progress.


"can't keep them out of the PX shop"

that detail right there tells me there is some truth to the story, probably a lot better than the naafi .

We have EFI's in operational locations. NAAFI only operates in garrisons. And yes Brit's do spend more than their fair share of time working out how to get on PX runs - the Italian and Danish ones are the best for booze, Dutch and Scandinavian for outdoor gear (Helly Hansen, Oakley stuff and the like), German for Perfume (for the little lady - should you have one), US for gucci gear, sports kit and electronics.

[Neoboy]

I don't know why but when reading it I just got this mental image of a HMMWV on a road with a American looking soldiers in it only for a driver suddenly pop his head out and shout something like, "get off the ****ing road ya bastards" in a proper Geordie accent :).

[Neoboy]

ahem double post.

[szr]

I hope they're Gucci'd to the max, because if they're just wearing the baseline US kit and lovin' it, you've got to feel for the poor sods who are stuck wearing the Brit kit for a living. LOL

[A Soldier]

Yeah the issued US kit isn't all that great. So are the Brit's getting the most recent gear, like ACU's or are they wearing our desert uniforms?

Oh and to add to the fact that they are not strutting around like American soldiers, when you first come into a recruiter's office over here they judge you on your strut potential, recruits with more strut potential get the high speed MOS, it is then refined and instructed in BCT and AIT. I think I have more of a swagger than a strut though, well the swagger is more seen in the officer ranks I guess.......;)

[California Joe]

Well you can tell by the way I use my walk....p-)

http://www.astor-theatre.com/images/in-line/posters/postersS/saturday-night-fever.jpg

[rambone]

Does anybody see this as a potential PR nightmare for us Americans? What if they **** up, or beat the **** out of some Iraqis on film, and al-Jazeera manages to get their hands on it?

[A Soldier]

and then after AIT the strut has been finalized

[szr]

Does anybody see this as a potential PR nightmare for us Americans? What if they **** up, or beat the **** out of some Iraqis on film, and al-Jazeera manages to get their hands on it?Or worse: get stuck in the mud...

We'll never hear the end of it!

[A Soldier]

Or worse: get stuck in the mud...

We'll never hear the end of it!
OMG I just pissed myself

[Dronetek]

i think this is great and just shows how people are wrong when they say us brits our out of our leauge in places like Baghdad

Who says that? I think you guys are pretty badass and I think most Americans would agree.

[A Soldier]

Who says that? I think you guys are pretty badass and I think most Americans would agree.
Oh hell ya!!! I want a bullpup, its all about the bullpup. Except on the initial invasion of Iraq, when they took forever to take Basra, and only did when 5th SF Group went in.

[Beer Monster]

Who says that? I think you guys are pretty badass and I think most Americans would agree.

How dare you ! ............

http://digilander.libero.it/Daisychain/cavalli/images/Bad_ass.jpg

[wiking]

Considering the tradition of the para's, and the pride they must take in the uniform, it's a damned shame they have to wear US uniforms and kit.... ain't that technically illegal BTW?

I'd rather take on a platoon of pissed of US marines than a lonely British para with nothing but his boot laces for a weapon :) p-)

[SPQR]

I think the uniform issue is a non-issue. When your out of the zone of operations, wear your own uniform with pride. I think you'll find wearing other uniforms and gear is quite common. Didn't Polish, Norwegian and Free French troops use British kit during WWII? That certainly didn't diminish their pride. Didn't Brits use US sherman tanks, Poles fly Brit spitfires? Finns using German gear during the same period?
Anyway, if civilains see what they think are US soldiers using M16's but acting alittle strange, they would probably just assume its those wacky Canadians again.

[brad 1]

Considering the tradition of the para's, and the pride they must take in the uniform, it's a damned shame they have to wear US uniforms and kit.... ain't that technically illegal BTW?

I'd rather take on a platoon of pissed of US marines than a lonely British para with nothing but his boot laces for a weapon :) p-)

:) well said man.

brad.

[Whitcomb]

I don't know why but when reading it I just got this mental image of a HMMWV on a road with a American looking soldiers in it only for a driver suddenly pop his head out and shout something like, "get off the ****ing road ya bastards" in a proper Geordie accent :).


I second that motion

[Whitcomb]

Who says that? I think you guys are pretty badass and I think most Americans would agree.


I certinley agree

[JustYourAverageJoe]

Which bit doesn't make sense?

Im thinking US troops dont have a very good reputation over there neither do the Brits. Wouldnt you think that they would be better if they wore Iraqi uniforms than US uniforms.

[EsoognomEhT]

It's illegal to wear the uniform of your enemy, not your ally


Article 23 of the Annex of the Hague Convention, No. IV, 1907, says: " In addition to the prohibitions provided by special conventions it is especially forbidden . . . (f) to make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag, or of the military insignia or uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention ".

[<Gypsum Fantastic>]

Im thinking US troops dont have a very good reputation over there neither do the Brits. Wouldnt you think that they would be better if they wore Iraqi uniforms than US uniforms.

The idea of it is so that they don't draw attention by being 'uncommon' troops in the region, it's not about reputation. Any insugent who suddenly see's groups of unannounced British soldiers in Baghdad wouldn't take too long to put two and two together.

[Pai Mei]

Are the troops in question wearing the Union Jack on their shoulder (small, subdued even--anything identifying them as British)?

Edit: One question answered. Thanks for the heads up, Mongoose.

[EsoognomEhT]

See two posts above.

[Seiran]

Just curious about what they think about the ACU. Or are they wearing the DCU's?

[EsoognomEhT]

I imagine I can guess what Pte. Snooks thinks of the ACU ;)

[RobertStacked]

We had a Marine company attached to ours. Shortly after breach they would roll into town and catch much of the glory:-(. Meanwhile I'm standing by some hooded dudette w/ kids thinking screw intel!

[EsoognomEhT]

Er, ya what?

[Ratamacue]

i think this is great and just shows how people are wrong when they say us brits our out of our leauge in places like BaghdadI've never seen anyone say that. The only criticisms I've seen are of British brass who think that the soft touch they can use in Basra is appropriate for Baghdad or Ramadi. It sounds to me like these Paras are going out, kicking ass, and taking names, not treading softly and keeping to themselves.

[remo williams]

Good for them, however aren't they risking darwing more attention to theselves. I thought American soldiers were considered "high value targets" to the insurgents etc. I believe that they can take care of themselves, just wondering why draw unwanted attention.

[Seiran]

I've never seen anyone say that. The only criticisms I've seen are of British brass who think that the soft touch they can use in Basra is appropriate for Baghdad or Ramadi. It sounds to me like these Paras are going out, kicking ass, and taking names, not treading softly and keeping to themselves.

Tread softly, but carry a big ass fsckin' stick?

[rjbhutton]

Sounds like their role is just like the US Rangers providing perimeter security for Delta in Somalia and the like; Crap hats providing gucci security to the SAS on more delicate operations. Interesting. Good for them for getting stuck in. (anyone remember that BBC series in the 80s, "P Company" or somthing like that.... "Cunningham, get over that wall,... you c*nt!!"). : )

[Gringo]

Sounds like their role is just like the US Rangers providing perimeter security for Delta in Somalia and the like; Crap hats providing gucci security to the SAS on more delicate operations. Interesting. Good for them for getting stuck in. (anyone remember that BBC series in the 80s, "P Company" or somthing like that.... "Cunningham, get over that wall,... you c*nt!!"). : )

You can watch it on the UK's channel 4 website, someone posted the link to it in off-topic forum, might've been in on of the 'I hate cadets' threads.

[AmericanImperialist]

Good for them, however aren't they risking darwing more attention to theselves. I thought American soldiers were considered "high value targets" to the insurgents etc. I believe that they can take care of themselves, just wondering why draw unwanted attention.
The object of wearing American uniforms in an American controlled city is so the insurgents don't see a bunch of Brits walking around and immediately realize there's an SAS raid going down.

[corran.pl]

I hope our 1st Commando Regiment will do that kind of job for GROM - they are receiving some US like Gear (HMMWVs, M4s, FN Minimis) this year. In Iraq/Afghanistan GROM was usually covered by US Marines.

[Andreas]

As we always told you - the best in town ;-)

"Operation Maroon" - well, that isn't exactly subtle in my book, but it tells a story. Shame about having to wear US uniform, but I suppose it does make operational sense.

Jupp, that maroon part is kinda daft when it comes to beeing in the name of the operation..

Maybe they dident mean to keep it realy top secret, perhaps a bit of a pr-stunt also to show British support for the US-troops i Iraq..

Just my two cents
Andreas

[Royal]

Jupp, that maroon part is kinda daft when it comes to beeing in the name of the operation..

Maybe they dident mean to keep it realy top secret, perhaps a bit of a pr-stunt also to show British support for the US-troops i Iraq..

Just my two cents
Andreas

Maroon is not the name of the Op - it's the name of the Task Force. That's not how we name operations.

If it was a PR stunt it would have been leaked long ago when the TF was first deployed.

[Adam Wilhelm]

That's not how we name operations.


I Love the way the british cooses an name for an operation.
Total randomly. p-)

[tumbler]

its maroon as that is the colour of the Brit Para Reg

[Sabre]

Go, go power rangers!

[SamHamam]

I think the uniform issue is a non-issue. When your out of the zone of operations, wear your own uniform with pride. I think you'll find wearing other uniforms and gear is quite common. Didn't Polish, Norwegian and Free French troops use British kit during WWII? That certainly didn't diminish their pride. Didn't Brits use US sherman tanks, Poles fly Brit spitfires? Finns using German gear during the same period?


and 41 (Independent) Commando Royal Marines wore US Uniforms and used US weapons in Korea (but they retained their own berets).

[Royal]

and 41 (Independent) Commando Royal Marines wore US Uniforms and used US weapons in Korea (but they retained their own berets).

RM exchange officers and NCOs with the USMC still wear US uniforms and carry US weapons when operationaly deployed...

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.5130

[usa320]

It makes sense. For one it gives the SAS a bit more element of surprise. For two, the more people on our side wearing the same uniform, the better, for the sake of identification.... The same way many Iraqi interpreters working with the US have been issued MARPAT/ACU's to identify them as friendly. ANd third, the US body armor appears to provide alot more protection than the british issued armor... like with the groin shield and the shoulder pads, ect... And everyone knows that the M-4/M-16 is better for SOF than the SA-80 because it can be pimped out more with cool lasers and stuff...

[Royal]

And everyone knows that the M-4/M-16 is better for SOF than the SA-80 because it can be pimped out more with cool lasers and stuff...

rofl

Sorry mate that cracked me up.

I'm a great fan of the M4/C8 and I've always said it on here, but you guys hang way too much crap on them. Check the UK SF pics on here and see how little SPOMOD style junk is hanging off their gats.

[usa320]

rofl

Sorry mate that cracked me up.

I'm a great fan of the M4/C8 and I've always said it on here, but you guys hang way too much crap on them. Check the UK SF pics on here and see how little SPOMOD style junk is hanging off their gats.


yeah, and when they need a can opener theyll be sorry...

SOPMOD junk for the win!!!11

[kayaker]

Indeed: a bit OTT when one has a PEQ2, Surefire, M203, vertical grip on their M4!! Yes those pics are out there!!

Gosh I havent even seen a sidearm in addtition to the C8 on the British pics...

[Royal]

Gosh I havent even seen a sidearm in addtition to the C8 on the British pics...

http://img447.imageshack.us/img447/3644/197221813ti.jpg

[kayaker]

Ooops!!


well, not every single bloke ;)

EDIT: now Im also seeing a "flashlight". Gosh how every craze in the US blows over to Europe. Latest fashion followed here: Obesity :P

[brad 1]

http://img447.imageshack.us/img447/3644/197221813ti.jpg

the guy far left ITS STING HA HA.

BRAD.

[brad 1]

You can watch it on the UK's channel 4 website, someone posted the link to it in off-topic forum, might've been in on of the 'I hate cadets' threads.

http://www.channel4.com/fourdocs/archive/p_company_player.html

BRAD.

[moughoun]

there was that photo of an SAS/SBS guy in Afghanistan, who had his C8 tricked out, suppressor-peq2-ACOG-ect, nice toop-)

[kayaker]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/RyanWoods/sas5.jpg

Wasn't this was it? ;)

[moughoun]

;-).......

[EsoognomEhT]

the guy far left ITS STING HA HA.

BRAD.

Not again. Please!

[brad 1]

Not again. Please!

APOLIGIES its the first time ive seen this photo and i guess by your reaction that someone else thought the same.
well i guess ill just have to search every post on this damned site before comenting again eh.

brad.

[EsoognomEhT]

Everyone else! In the world rofl

[Irish]

;-).......

nice new avatar Moug!!http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1538/e15421ja.gifp-)

[rjbhutton]

You can watch it on the UK's channel 4 website, someone posted the link to it in off-topic forum, might've been in on of the 'I hate cadets' threads.
Gringo:

cheers, mate!!! But I went to the Channel 4 website and I'm buggered if I can find the link... do you have a URL?

[Seiran]

Indeed: a bit OTT when one has a PEQ2, Surefire, M203, vertical grip on their M4!! Yes those pics are out there!!

Speak of The Devil...

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/4218/misc19vl7hl.jpg

And He shall appear.

[kayaker]

Actually missing a couple of essentials: Sidearm and ranger mags ;)

Seriously though, that weapon must be twice the weight it was origionally. You wonder how they even fought without the Gucci kit p-)

[brad 1]

..........................
sorry not working

[Ratamacue]

Actually missing a couple of essentials: Sidearm and ranger mags ;)

Seriously though, that weapon must be twice the weight it was origionally. You wonder how they even fought without the Gucci kit p-)From what I've seen, for the USMC at least (don't know about the Army), during training and exercises you'll normally see guys carrying plain M16A4's with iron sights, and only when they deploy will they tack on optics, PEQ-2's, etc. The idea being that you train with the basics so the advanced kit serves only to supplement, not replace, when you're in a situation where it really counts.

Of course, I'm not in the Corps, so someone with better knowledge or experience should correct me if I'm wrong.

[kayaker]

From what I've seen, for the USMC at least (don't know about the Army), during training and exercises you'll normally see guys carrying plain M16A4's with iron sights, and only when they deploy will they tack on optics, PEQ-2's, etc. The idea being that you train with the basics so the advanced kit serves only to supplement, not replace, when you're in a situation where it really counts.

Of course, I'm not in the Corps, so someone with better knowledge or experience should correct me if I'm wrong.

Makes sense!

[alex423]

there usuing us gear so so amricens don't shoot at them
Before you give us your ****head remarks, please learn to spell:)

[moughoun]

Before you give us your ****head remarks, please learn to spell:)
before you give guy's like Martin your bs, grow some pubic hair and join the effing military

[Ea$y-8]

and 41 (Independent) Commando Royal Marines wore US Uniforms and used US weapons in Korea (but they retained their own berets).

I know a US Marine who fought a Chosin and fought along side the Royal Marines there. He has nothing but respect for them. He told my they would shave in -40 degree weather he called them "some of the toughest M***** F***'s he has even known.

[alex423]

before you give guy's like Martin your bs, grow some pubic hair and join the effing military
All I'm saying is it makes no sense to worry about that since there is no huge pattern of friendly fire against brits that would make them do somthing like that. If there is something I dont know about, by all means, please tell me about it.

[remo williams]

The object of wearing American uniforms in an American controlled city is so the insurgents don't see a bunch of Brits walking around and immediately realize there's an SAS raid going down.

Understood. So this is to retain an element of surprise. I was just thinking that looking like an American soldier would actually highlight them more so than say Canadian or Italian. There is a bounty for killing American troops isn't there. either way they're gonna get shot at, but I'm thinking a lower key appearance wouldn't aggravate that so much. Still, change is good and they should enjoy the high speed makeoverp-) .

[Ea$y-8]

All I'm saying is it makes no sense to worry about that since there is no huge pattern of friendly fire against brits that would make them do somthing like that. If there is something I dont know about, by all means, please tell me about it.

They aren't many friendly fire incidents. The troops all know what the weapons sound like. In Vietnam we had a real FF problem. The troops would get AK-47s off of dead NVA and VC and use them. The AKs have a very different sound compared to other small arms and thus when ever they heard a AK they think it is a enemy and shot at it.

[Royal]

All I'm saying is it makes no sense to worry about that since there is no huge pattern of friendly fire against brits that would make them do somthing like that. If there is something I dont know about, by all means, please tell me about it.

There is a huge problem of friendly fire against all coalition nationalities in MND SE - largely (but not entirely) by US convoys transiting from Kuwait. Fortunately to date there have been few casualties, because gunners realise after letting a few rounds off.

During Telic 5 a mate of mine (an infantry Major) had two of his SNCOs detached to Camp Doha to teach incoming US units allied vehicle recognition - due to the 29 blue on blue's that had occured in the Div AO up to that point of the tour. He (& I) went down to visit them and were engaged by a call-sign from the Electric Strawberry just past Safwan Crossing - our vehicle took 3 .50 rounds and was a write off the vehicle in front of us took 2 through the rear. No-one was hurt. The gunner responsible had just completed the recognition package p-)

As I said the US were not the only ones responsible the Dutch were engaged by US, British and Danish forces on the same tour and the Poles were engaged by the Dutch all in the MND SE AO.

The problem is 3 fold as I see it; poor recognition training coupled with a huge variety of vehilcles and colour schemes used by the coaltion, extensive use of 'white' and 'grey' fleet vehilces by coalition members - often in mixed convoys with 'green' vehicles, and finally nervous trigger happy troops new to theatre or fresh out from the FOB.

[spectre17]

Reason why I aspire to be a Recogntion Instuctor ! The Training really needs updating. It should be taught before even weapon drills are taught. You dont get your weapon till you know what to shoot.

[Chops]

before you give guy's like Martin your bs, grow some pubic hair and join the effing military

Ten points to the Irishman...

[marktigger]

when working as laison in a US headquarters on telic 1 we had to brief the American brass on the arrival of one of our Mech brigades. They had absoultley no Idea that the had different kit. We provided them with Powerpoint package on all the Kit for briefing their forces to no avail what so ever.

[SamHamam]

They aren't many friendly fire incidents. The troops all know what the weapons sound like. In Vietnam we had a real FF problem. The troops would get AK-47s off of dead NVA and VC and use them. The AKs have a very different sound compared to other small arms and thus when ever they heard a AK they think it is a enemy and shot at it.

As Royal has said there has been huge issue with friendly fire in the MND(SE) AO. Frankly most of the incidents that I came across were inexcusable. However I have no doubt that a contributing factor is that a the Div AO is the first that the US soldiers see of Iraq and they are, to say the least, on edge.

Your point about weapon sound signatures may have had some validity in Vietnam however I fear that it exposes a lack of knowledge about:

a) the coalition forces in Iraq, many of who use AK derivatives (eg Czechs, Romanians, Poles etc).

b) the circumstances of most of the FF incidents – without exception in the ones that I know of involving US troops the US troops fired first and I can recall only one where they were fired back at (that was by Royal Marines, to my mind it was good drills in the circumstances and frankly by that time we were all so pi$$ed off with the repeated incidents that our reaction was that it was a pity the Booties did not score a few hits).

[Yimmy]

The problem is 3 fold as I see it; poor recognition training coupled with a huge variety of vehilcles and colour schemes used by the coaltion, extensive use of 'white' and 'grey' fleet vehilces by coalition members - often in mixed convoys with 'green' vehicles, and finally nervous trigger happy troops new to theatre or fresh out from the FOB.

Royal (and other UK posters), what is your opinion of Equipment Recognition Lessons as taught today?

I am trying to get myself onto the TA course to become an instructor (two weekends), as I can pass it in my sleep, but in my opinion the content of the lessons is awful. Not nearly enough vehicles are included in the test, while national markings and other insignia are completely overlooked.:roll:

[SamHamam]

Royal (and other UK posters), what is your opinion of Equipment Recognition Lessons as taught today?

I am trying to get myself onto the TA course to become an instructor (two weekends), as I can pass it in my sleep, but in my opinion the content of the lessons is awful. Not nearly enough vehicles are included in the test, while national markings and other insignia are completely overlooked.:roll:

I have a lot of sympathy with your point of view. I think that it's a very bad idea that with the demise of ITD(A)s there is now no requirement for annual recognition testing (there is no recognition MATT).

Part of the problem is that it's no longer as simple as 15+ years ago when we were training for an armoured/mechanised war against a known enemy and you could make up pretty useful lists of basic and signature kit for the guys to recognise.

That said get yourself qualified, get a copy of PowerPoint and internet access and make up your own lessons, it's a lot easier than the old days when all you had was slides that the int cell wouldn't let you borrow as they had all been taken by BRIXMIS and were RESTRICTED or above, a slide projector that always jammed or the CO had got to brief some visitor or old copies of the (error ridden) Defence Recognition Journal.

Having done the old ILRRPS Spec Recco course in Germany many moons ago I can safely say the UK TA on the courses filled all the top spots in those days but it was a key part of our job back then.

However I am a believer that national recognition markings etc are of little importance (for normal battlefield troops) – many reasons for this but the prime one is than normally if you are close enough to see them it’s probably too late. A bit like learning the number of wheel nuts on a UAZ - fascinating I’m sure but of little use if LCpl Bloggs in the Milan Platoon can’t tell the difference between a Warrior and a BMP that’s where you need to be spending your time.

[Yimmy]

I have a lot of sympathy with your point of view. I think that it's a very bad idea that with the demise of ITD(A)s there is now no requirement for annual recognition testing (there is no recognition MATT).


However I am a believer that national recognition markings etc are of little importance (for normal battlefield troops) – many reasons for this but the prime one is than normally if you are close enough to see them it’s probably too late. A bit like learning the number of wheel nuts on a UAZ - fascinating I’m sure but of little use if LCpl Bloggs in the Milan Platoon can’t tell the difference between a Warrior and a BMP that’s where you need to be spending your time.

I haven't really been keeping track of the new acronyms, I assume MATT's are the new ITD's? I also never knew recognition had been removed, I thought the only real change was the addition of navigation. I hear NBC has also been changed to include Radiological somewhere as well.:roll:

As for the Warrior/BMP issue, I completely agree. However what with the new Eastern Block nations joining the EU and NATO, we are seeing allies operating the bad guys kit - I understand the Eastern European nations are using a few variations of BTR's etc in Iraq.

[Hydro]

I haven't really been keeping track of the new acronyms, I assume MATT's are the new ITD's? I also never knew recognition had been removed, I thought the only real change was the addition of navigation. I hear NBC has also been changed to include Radiological somewhere as well.:roll:




Yes, MATT's are the new ITD's. NBC is now CBRN (Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear warfare) and the fitness is now a pass/fail PFT (Personal Fitness Test) rather than the BPFA.

[SamHamam]

More details here

http://www.army.mod.uk/servingsoldier/matt_wip_.htm

[Ea$y-8]

As Royal has said there has been huge issue with friendly fire in the MND(SE) AO. Frankly most of the incidents that I came across were inexcusable. However I have no doubt that a contributing factor is that a the Div AO is the first that the US soldiers see of Iraq and they are, to say the least, on edge.

Your point about weapon sound signatures may have had some validity in Vietnam however I fear that it exposes a lack of knowledge about:

a) the coalition forces in Iraq, many of who use AK derivatives (eg Czechs, Romanians, Poles etc).

b) the circumstances of most of the FF incidents – without exception in the ones that I know of involving US troops the US troops fired first and I can recall only one where they were fired back at (that was by Royal Marines, to my mind it was good drills in the circumstances and frankly by that time we were all so pi$$ed off with the repeated incidents that our reaction was that it was a pity the Booties did not score a few hits).

I know about the AK derivatives from our former eastern bloc allies. They are using bad guy weapons and it would no doubt cause some trouble. I don't know much about FF incidents. I don't understand what all this FF is about. I mean it is pretty easy for us to tell the difference between a insurgent and a Brit...

[SamHamam]

I know about the AK derivatives from our former eastern bloc allies. They are using bad guy weapons and it would no doubt cause some trouble. I don't know much about FF incidents. I don't understand what all this FF is about. I mean it is pretty easy for us to tell the difference between a insurgent and a Brit...

You would have thought so wouldn't you.

Royal has already given one example.

Two more

British troops in Military Land Rovers approach rear of US convoy, slow down and sit 100m behind, top cover in rear vehicle (hummer) waves them to overtake, as they pull forward someone points a rifle out of the side window and opens fire on them.

Danish callsign parked off the side of Route 6 in military vehicles. US convoy passes - at least one topcover opens up with the of 50 Cal, rounds are seen to strike around the Danish vehicles.

Both the above happened in broad daylight.

[wiking]

I know about the AK derivatives from our former eastern bloc allies. They are using bad guy weapons and it would no doubt cause some trouble. I don't know much about FF incidents. I don't understand what all this FF is about. I mean it is pretty easy for us to tell the difference between a insurgent and a Brit...

Alot of US troops use AK's and derivaties to, not just Delta and other SF, but when they had to take tank crews out of the tanks to man checkpoints (i assume they still do, though correct me if i'm wrong) they have 1 rifle per tank, and 1 pistol per crewmember. That means there's 3 or 4 guys who need to scrounge up a rifle each ASAP, preferably the day before yesterday, and when there's not that many M16 around to borrow, but tons of ownerless AK's (with a better reputation for function and reliability than the M16 in a desert environment to boot) the selection isn't all that difficult.

[EsoognomEhT]

I haven't really been keeping track of the new acronyms, I assume MATT's are the new ITD's? I also never knew recognition had been removed, I thought the only real change was the addition of navigation. I hear NBC has also been changed to include Radiological somewhere as well.:roll:

As for the Warrior/BMP issue, I completely agree. However what with the new Eastern Block nations joining the EU and NATO, we are seeing allies operating the bad guys kit - I understand the Eastern European nations are using a few variations of BTR's etc in Iraq.


Whilst thats true, who exactly are the bad guys now?
Is someone at the MOD going to be bold and start producing slides with Iranian Armour on? Or Chinese?

I'm pretty glad anyway, the chap that 'takes' this particular ITD has a real hard-on for extremly boring details on bmps. Like how many rivets there are in the door O.o etc

[Royal]

Royal (and other UK posters), what is your opinion of Equipment Recognition Lessons as taught today?

With the exception of the UK stuff (which should be second nature, but clearly isn't - even within my beloved Corps) it's pish.

It doesn't matter who a piece of kit belongs to - you should be able to recognise the major players in your AOR - Danish Eagle's, Dutch M113's Aussie LAV's, Brit Land Rovers etc etc.

We're not on the West German plain any more - if it's got tracks it's friendly (unless we take a pop at Iran, or General Dostum is playing up) it's being able to tell the difference between a Dutch Recce G Wagen and an insurgent Nissan gun truck - or between an insurgent Nissan gun truck and a Czech SOG Omega Toyota gun truck p-) .It's tough but a bit of training, more testing and some experience and common dog would work wonders.

[Ea$y-8]

Alot of US troops use AK's and derivaties to, not just Delta and other SF, but when they had to take tank crews out of the tanks to man checkpoints (i assume they still do, though correct me if i'm wrong) they have 1 rifle per tank, and 1 pistol per crewmember. That means there's 3 or 4 guys who need to scrounge up a rifle each ASAP, preferably the day before yesterday, and when there's not that many M16 around to borrow, but tons of ownerless AK's (with a better reputation for function and reliability than the M16 in a desert environment to boot) the selection isn't all that difficult.

The tankers use M4 carbines when in their tanks for the most part, not M16s. But I am sure without they are willing to use AKs.

[Sabre]

Whilst thats true, who exactly are the bad guys now?
Is someone at the MOD going to be bold and start producing slides with Iranian Armour on? Or Chinese?

I'm pretty glad anyway, the chap that 'takes' this particular ITD has a real hard-on for extremly boring details on bmps. Like how many rivets there are in the door O.o etc

Recognition training should reflect the operational theatres we are deployed in. There are always AO-specific equipment scales from all nations involved and the training should be flexible and up to date enough to detail them. There's plenty of material in the news/media to be used, it would only take a short time to compile a useful recognition guide. It's a joke when reverve units are still jumping through hoops to get their bounties by telling a T64 from a T72 when the only ones they're likely to see are friendly! Especially when the 'test' is more of a communal answer pooling exercise...

The emphasis has shifted towards recognition of friendly units rather than identification of enemy equipment, which is fair enough. The average squaddie doesn't need to be able to identify a command variant APC from a NBC recce variant from a FOO varient etc etc as that is more specialised recce requirement. It seems that there is a need to provide specific, in-theatre training coupled with strict fire-discipline reinforcement.

[-Jack-]

Sounds like their role is just like the US Rangers providing perimeter security for Delta in Somalia and the like; Crap hats providing gucci security to the SAS on more delicate operations. Interesting. Good for them for getting stuck in. (anyone remember that BBC series in the 80s, "P Company" or somthing like that.... "Cunningham, get over that wall,... you c*nt!!"). : )

Crap-hats are non-Paras.

[siberian tiger]

Aren`t there car accidents in Bagdad now with the british driving there :)????

Guessing the future:

Big accident between 2 US Army vehicles while the drivers (one us army and one british dress has us army) yelling to each other: "You are in the wrong side of the road!!!". :)

just kidind