Archive Thread 8- World's toughest Special forces Selection & Training

[hist2004]

South Africa's
1 Reconnaissance Commando
The 'Recces'

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With the paratroops moving toward a more conventional airborne-forces role, the SADF felt a distinct need for an SAS or Fernspaher type of unit. This need was met by the establishment of a small specialist unit in Durban (1 October 1972) called 1 Reconnaissance Commando. Since then, a number of additional Recce Commandos have been established, in-including a CF element and 4 Recce, based at Langebaan in the Cape and trained for amphibious operations. All have amply proved their worth on operations, and the 'Recces' have earned the admiring respect even of the tough 'parabats' and the bush war experts of 32 Bn.
One of the tasks of the Recce Commandos is that of gathering intelligence on activity in enemy rear areas. The execution of special operations in the enemy rear also falls within their ambit. In general, they could be described as specialists in strategic intelligence, although the war against PLAN insurgents has seen them carry out tactical intelligence-gathering missions. On occasion, they have also been used as an elite combat element, as was the case in operations during 1982 which were aimed at the elimination of two PLAN front headquarters. Normally, however, the superbly trained Recces are too valuable to risk in a combat role despite their undoubted efficiency. As is the case with their equivalents in other countries, they are best employed in a covert observation role. Little has been released about how Recces are organized or how they operate. It has been said, however, that the basic element is the five- or six-man team wherein each member is a specialist some kind. A typical team might include tracker, a navigator, a medic, an explosives expert and a signaler. On the other hand, there have also been occasion references to reconnaissance teams; small as two men operating well inside Angola, which can safely be taken to mean the Recces.

Operational and tactical details are non-existent, which is only natural considering that the Recces must rely always on stealth for the success of their missions and often for their very survival. Broadcasting these methods would be one way of committing suicide. The only information available this regard is that they are trained in the use of boats, and that they do have some armed and modified vehicles among the equipment. Given the thinly populated nature of much of southern Africa, it does not take too much imagination to see them sometimes operating in a style not dissimilar to that of the British Special Air Service (SAS) of World War II.

Both the selection procedure and the actual training of the Recces are very stiff indeed, putting even the Paras and Battalion in the shade. Above all, every effort is made to avoid roughnecks and 'muscle-bound morons.' While the Recce must be very fit indeed, they also need more than an average intellect to carry c their mission. Strong character and a considerate nature are additional requirements for their role: any weakness of character or inability to get along with other team members could all too easily spell the failure of a given operation. The toughness of the selection process is demonstrated by the fact that a typical year may see up to 700 applicants - in themselves a select group - of whom perhaps 45 make the grade. It is also interesting that more than 5 percent of the Recces have their matric, and not a few hold university qualifications in very diverse subjects.

Two selection courses are held each year, prior to which recruiters visit various units to outline the nature and role of the unit and its training programme. They also show films of the process to ensure that there are no false impressions among potential applicants. Potential candidates then undergo thorough medical and psychological examinations and are quizzed about their reasons for wanting to join and what they think they can contribute to the unit. Even prior to this very searching interview, they must pass a PT test which includes:
a) 30 km with normal kit and rifle and a 30-kg sand bag in 6 hours;
b) 8 km in long trousers and boots, with rifle, in 45 minutes:
c) 40 push-ups, 8 chin pulls and 68 sh-ups within a specified time;
d) 40 shuttle runs of 7 m each in 90 seconds;
e) Swim 45 m freestyle.


Those who pass this PT test, plus the medical and psychological examinations, and convince the selection board that they have something to offer the unit, can then enter the three-week pre-selection programme course! This kicks off with two weeks of strenuous PT for eight hours a day to prepare aspirants for the rigours of the selection programme proper. Some lectures on relevant subjects are thrown in with the same purpose. Usually some 20 percent of the applicants drop out during this phase - eloquent testimony to its harshness, given the standard of fitness required even for entry. This is followed by a one-week water orientation programme in Zululand. This tests the candidates' adaptability to water and their adeptness in small boats. Instruction is given in the use of kayaks, two-seater canoes and motor boats. Navigation exercises take candidates many kilometers through swamps, and there is an 8-km race with poles over the dunes --one four-man pole per two men. Candidates are allowed to form up into teams of their choice during this phase and are watched closely for teamwork and leadership; a buddy rating is called for toward the end of the phase. Rations are gradually reduced during the week. Candidates are rated for adaptability, swimming and other water skills, ability to work under difficult circumstances and stress, resistance to cold, claustrophobia, co-ordintion and fitness. At this point another ??'percent drop out.

The remaining candidates are then flown to the Operational Area for the final phase of the selection programme. The first week here takes the form of a bush orientation/survival course during which they are taught which plants are edible, which give water, how to get a fire going without matches and how to cope with lions and elephants. The first day of this course sees the candidates stripped and searched for cigarettes, tobacco, sweets and toiletries - only kit and medical items are left to them. They are then given time to build a shelter with their ground sheet; which must be dug in 45 cm and are marked on its neatness, practicality and originality. Rations are further reduced and water is limited to five liters a day per man.

Apart from the survival training, PT stays with them throughout: a typical day might include an hour of PT before a breakfast consisting largely of water; observation tests wherein candidates are given a fixed route to follow on which they must identify and note down ten different objects; three runs over an assault course -- the last with a 35-kg pack, including a mortar-bomb container filled with cement; a five-km run along an gully without their kit, followed by loading up again and carrying a tree trunk back to their camp. During this phase the candidates are evaluated for adaptability; water discipline; bush navigation; fear of the dark, animals and heights; ability to do without food; care of weapons and equipment; memory; powers of observation; leadership; and the ease with which they move in bush. Particular emphasis is placed on the ability to get on with others while under stress. A second buddy rating is called for.

This phase ends in a spate of automatic rifle fire that heralds the next stage which is intended to try the candidates psycho logically to the uttermost - and succeeds Then comes the 'crunch' phase. One morning the men are told that, 'The courseis 51 degrees magnetic. You walk 38 km and your RV is l900 hours this evening at a dirt landing strip. If you make it, you may get some food.' Twenty km along they are met by some of the instructors and allowed to fill their water bottles - while the instructors drink and spill ice-cold soft drinks. On arrival at the RV, each man is given eight biscuits - only to discover that they are contaminated with petrol and totally inedible. Meanwhile, the instructors have a happy barbecue picnic which any candidate can join - if he is only willing to drop out.

Finally, the candidates are put into the bush for five days with a tin of condensed milk, half a 24-hour ration pack and twelve biscuits, eight of which are soaked in petrol. Elephant, lion, and bush fires are among the problems of this final stretch. When they finally get to their last rendezvous, the men are given a new bearing and told there are another 30 kilometers to go. Those who go on find the instructors around the next corner. Seventeen percent make it.

Those who survive the selection programme must then complete and pass the parachute course before being accepted into the Recces. The actual Recce training lasts some 42 weeks and includes tracking, survival, weapons handling, explosives, unconventional warfare, unarmed combat, mountaineering, guerrilla tactics, bush- and field craft, map reading, day and night navigation and signalling. Throughout this training they are also taught how to handle enemy equipment in each of the categories. Physical training naturally also stays with them and, in fact, reaches new peaks in what is demanded and achieved. The final test is a night or two in lion country with rifle, ammunition and a box of matches. The new Recce is now posted to a team in one of the existing Recce Commandos specializing in whatever he proved best suited to during his training. After serving in such a team for a while, members can choose to specialize further in this direction or in other areas like military free-fall parachuting or sea training. The latter includes combat diving, kayak work, small boat handling, coastal and deep-sea navigation and sailing. Given the demands of their selection and training, the Recces will always be a very small group of men, a group that others look up to as examples of the ultimate individual soldier. Envy plays no part in this, for their work is easily as demanding and often as unpleasant as their training. Only a special sort of man would seriously want to join.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Some more Recce info,
taken from www.recce.co.za

General Facts & Figures

South African Special Forces Operators are known internationally by their nickname of "Recces" . This is the abbreviated form of the original name of the Special Forces Regiments - the Reconnaissance Regiments.


In 2002, the South African Special Forces community celebrated the 30th anniversary of the establishment of a Special Forces capability in South Africa.


By the conclusion of the war in Angola in 1988, out of the more than 100 000 persons who had applied to attend the Pre Selection interviews to attempt the Special Forces Operators Training Cycle, fewer than 480 had Qualified as Special Forces Operators. Out of this number, more than 80 Operators were killed in action during the Angolan war.


By the beginning of 2003, fewer than 900 persons had ever Qualified as South African Special Forces Operators - fewer people than have ever successfully climbed Mount Everest. Out of this 900, more than 200 are deceased.


Since the inception of Special Forces in South Africa, retired and serving Special Forces Operators observe the Saint Michael ceremony every September. Saint Michael is the protector and Patron Saint of Paratroopers, (every Qualified Operator is also a qualified Paratrooper), and this ceremony holds a special significance for Operators - especially during times of war.


Throughout its history, the South African Special Forces has been a non-racial entity, and always had approximately equal numbers of black and white Qualified Operators.


The most highly decorated Special Forces Operator to date is a black Operator from 5 Reconnaissance Regiment, who was awarded the Honoris Crux Gold in 1980.


Despite the fact that Special Forces Operators are held to a much higher standard than the rest of the military when it comes to the awarding of medals, the South African Special Forces Operators is still the most highly decorated military entity in South Africa in respect of Bravery Medals since the end of the Second World War.


All South African Special Forces Operators are highly qualified in all aspects of Land, Airborne and Seaborne skills, tactics, operations and deployments; and are able to and have Operated in virtually all possible terrain and climatic conditions.


Special Forces Operators usually wore beards because they were unable to shave during their deployments. Shaving would waste precious water, and the enemy would be able to smell the shaving cream or soap if it was used. The beards also helped with camouflage of the face for both black and white Operators, as the sun would not reflect off a beard like it would off a shaven face. Similarly, the long hair as seen in some photographs of the Recces is as result of the long periods the Operators spent behind the enemy lines on operations, where they could not cut their hair.


During war, Operators could expect to be physically deployed in actual operations against the enemy - primarily behind enemy lines - for an average of 9 to 10 months per year. Many Operators did this for 10 to 15 years.


During war, the average weight of kit carried by Special Forces Operators is 60kg to 80kg. For long-distance deployments or Small Team operations, the average weight of kit carried is 100kg. The heaviest kit carried by Small Teams or Long deployment Operators is 130kg.


An unofficial form of achievement within the South African Special Forces is when an Operator has completed a " Gunston 500" - named after the Surfing Championship. In the South African Special Forces context, a "Gunston 500" entails conducting an operation behind enemy lines, where one walks for 500 kilometres or more with full kit. Many Operators, and most who took part in the Angolan war, have completed at least one or many " Gunston 500's" .


During the Angolan war, 95% of all Special Forces operations were carried out behind enemy lines - over distances of anything from 10 km to 2000 km behind the enemy lines.


During reconnaissance of enemy targets and fixed positions, Special Forces Reconnaissance Teams usually comprise 2 to 4 Operators. They conduct reconnaissance on enemy bases from direct line of sight positions right on the edge of the bases, and would penetrate inside the bases. These bases comprised and can comprise anything from several hundred up ten thousand plus enemy soldiers.


During the Angolan war, Special Forces Reconnaissance Teams who entered into contact with enemy forces during reconnaissance missions, or during infiltration or exfiltration, had to conduct Escape and Evasion to escape capture or death. The distances over which E&E was applied in such situations - on foot - has varied from 20 km to over 1000km.


Historically, more than 55% of all Operators were at one time or another Wounded in Action - some on multiple occasions. Very often, they dressed and treated their wounds themselves, and seldom left the field or operations for treatment.


The South African Special Forces have the highest statistical Killed in Action ratio of any South African military unit since the battle of Delville Wood during the First World War. During the Angolan war, an Operator had statistically only a one in five chance of long-term survival, due to the nature, frequency and number of operations which they conducted.


The first South African soldier Killed in Action at the beginning of the Angolan / former South West Africa war was a Special Forces Operator, and the last South African soldier Killed in Action at the end of the Angola / former South West Africa war was a Special Forces Operator.


During the entire Angolan war, the total strength of all the Special Forces Regiments combined was never more than 200 to 250 Operators at any one time, due to their Killed in Action and Wounded in Action statistics, retirements and resignations.


Special Forces Operators have never had equal of superior numbers to the enemy when attacking enemy fixed positions, and have always been heavily outnumbered in all their engagements.


During the Angolan war, amongst the Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces against which South African Special Forces Operators worked were Russians, Ukrainians, East Germans and others. Also present were Cubans, North Koreans, Vietnamese, and various other Soviet-aligned forces. These included Regular Army, Air Force, Navy and Special Forces elements of these forces.


During the later stages of the Angolan war, the Soviet Union diverted much of its war materiel meant for Afghanistan to Angola - including the most sophisticated Russian arms outside the Soviet Union itself. Angolan airspace became classified as the most hostile airspace in the world, with the Soviets having total air superiority for virtually the whole war. This meant that Special Forces Operators never had the possibility of re-supply, support or evacuation on the majority of their operations, and once they were in, they were completely and utterly alone until they returned.

[Yeoman]

now that was a good read
that's just bloody crazy. I knew the south africans were hardcore, but bloody hell, that's insane.
amazes how little I know of any army outside of canada's, england's, and the united states.
thanks for the read
Greg

[UkrainianAmerican]

DAMN!
That makes John Rambo look like a sissy school girl.

[ShadowNeo]

amazes how little I know of any army outside of canada's, england's, and the united states.

Just nitpicking here but the British Army is not solely Englands - it is the United Kingdom's, that is including Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Personal annoyance of mine, being a Scot, when people refer to the British Army as England's army :).

[hist2004]

Hey guys, if you think their selection & training is tough, how about this on
an "average" operation in enemy territory...


A Small Team, (2 Operators), or a Team, (12 Operators), would do this. In such an operation, a Reconnaissance Mission would be undertaken on an enemy strategic position – on a military position or a military complex in a (for example, in Angola).



Firstly, one would have to infiltrate. This would entail walking to the target area -

In enemy territory all the way.
In a war situation, with enemy soldiers and forces (very good and highly trained ones) all along the route - constantly searching for us.
With potentially hostile local population all over the place, who would instantly inform the enemy soldiers if we were detected.
With the enemy having complete air superiority, and having helicopter and helicopter gunship patrols frequently.
With no possibility of any support, resupply or evacuation by ground or air.
Carrying all food, water, sleeping equipment, military equipment, and ammunition - of a quantity that could last for weeks.
Meaning that the weight of one's rucksack - excluding webbing and weapon/s - would be 60kg to 80kg - or in some cases 100kg. (As an educational exercise, just try to walk normally - or lift - a rucksack weighing 80 kg).
Walking in over 300km to 400km or more - inside enemy territory.


Infiltration would be long and arduous, moving mostly at night, conducting anti-tracking, lying up in hides in the day, avoiding all enemy forces and local population - all the while carrying this killing weight, navigating accurately through the bush or through mountains, crossing crocodile-infested, deep and fast-flowing rivers (not by bridge), coming across lions and other dangerous animals, eating and drinking hardly anything to conserve rations, tolerating all weather conditions from freezing to frying and from tropical rain to no water at all, never speaking, never cooking, never making noise, always doing anti-tracking, always alert - all the while aware that if you were compromised, you were on your own, and however far you were in - so far you would have to get out - without any help, and with the full and mighty force of the enemy hunting you.



At the target area, one would have to get into a hide right at the enemy position - which could be a base harboring thousands of enemy soldier. “Right at” the enemy position meaning right in direct sight of the base with the naked eye. One may also have to move around to various hides at various points around the enemy base, all the time making maps, notes, records, assessments, etc. On various occasions, the reconnaissance would entail penetrating right inside the actual enemy base to conduct reconnaissance.



Once enough information had been obtained, one would have to exfiltrate - all the way back - on foot, with all the obstacles and challenges that one had faced on the infiltration. The only difference would be that one may be running low on water and food - and could not -without extreme danger of being compromised - take food from fields or go to rivers / waterholes for water, as these are they are routinely busy or watched.



If one was compromised on the infiltration or exfiltration, the enemy would deploy hundreds or thousands of men between the contact point and the border - by plane, by helicopter, by vehicle, on foot from their forward bases. They would form huge interdiction lines cutting off direct escape routes, and would conduct hundreds of patrols, and have standing ambushes all over the place. Their aircraft and helicopters would fly all over the area - searching. Also, they would get onto your tracks - and chase you - running you down with teams and teams of fresh men, changing when they got tired so that they were always fresh while you got tired. Trying to force you into their ambushes in front of you, with stopper groups deployed at the sides to prevent you from escaping to the side.



One would have to survive such a situation, applying Escape and Evasion techniques - sometimes over hundreds of kilometers - running, lying up & hiding, passing stealthily through enemy positions, or staying in cover while they walked right over you, or entering into contact (a firefight) with enemy forces - never stopping, never sleeping, and never giving up.



If one of your colleagues was killed or wounded, you would carry him out with you. If you were all wounded, those who could still walk would carry those who could not.



If and when you managed to escape and get back over the border, you would rest up for a short period, and start all over again with another operation, time and time again, year in and year out.



This is what a Special Forces Reconnaissance operation entails. There are many and various other examples of reconnaissance tasks that are even more arduous than this example - which is a relatively standard example.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[SAS Britain]

What you said sounds desirable but completely stupid and unrealistic. There is no way a full grown man can carry a rucksack of 80KG, The capacity of a British army Bergen is 120lbs, it is known to be the best military rucksack in the world. Also about that 300/400km TAB behind enemy lines it simply sounds insane and not possible. My mates father is an operative of the 23 SAS TA company. He would laugh at you for saying the **** you said. Simply pathetic and unrealitstc. South Africans are tough but not that tough.

[Swedish_Marine]

Wow that´s a really impressive story, i didn´t know a man could carry that much for that long, damn. I can´t compete with that one.

No no that´s Bull S*it. I´ll tell you a little anecdote of mine. When i was in the service we carried a Berghaus Trident and it´s packing volume was 110 liters. When packed in it´s basic state it weighed in at about 40-45 kilos. Plus loadbearing gear, ammo, helmet and your weapon. ( I can´t help but thinking about the poor bastards that was in for 10 months who later on had to do the same thing with supportweapons ) And in addition to this we carried cammo-nets and one radio/squad. With the radio and cammonets it would weigh in at about 60 kilos, but that bag with the radio circled around in the squad so everybody carried it at some point ( we switched after 1 hour ). I was very fit back then but those 60 kilos litterally killed me. We walked for about 9 miles with the big pack ( metric miles, 1 mile = 10 kilometers ) and 4 miles with our combat-pack ( the side pouches on the Berghaus sack connected togehter ) and when we came back to the regiment to be issued the green beret i was closer to death than being alive. Many of us had received injuries to the bones in their feet ( stress fractures ) because of the weight of the pack and those were bigger guys than me. And the best part is that there are units in the Swedish armed forces that has conscripts who have done worse things than that even.

My point is that carrying up to 80 kilos for 300 - 400 kilometers is humanly impossible without collapsing, especially during the extraction part of the operation. I have read Bravo 2 Zero and mr McNabb tells that when they inserted they carried about 90 kilos of gear but they only walked for 2 miles and they even had to take a couple ( two? ) of turns to get the gear in place.

[grendel]

re. the heavy bergens/rucksacks carried by the Recces:

Wouldn't it have been wiser to utilise caches (sp?)? If I'm not mistaken, Rhodesia's legendary Selous Scouts used them during their raids into neighboring Zambia, Mozambique & Botswana.

[hist2004]

Guys, I didn't live the article, I just posted it. Thanks for all the info about
how much weight a trooper can carry...but my guess is he meant 80 pounds not kilograms.

Regards &Thanks,
Hist2004

[SAS Britain]

I train almost daily with huge weights. I pack about 50kilograms into my rucksack and do a death march across uneven terrain. I would also like to point out that 1mile is not 10kilometers. Her is the exact difference, 1 Mile=1600meters, 1 kilometer is 1000meters. I do about 10 kilometers running with my water and assault boots, Balaklava, and combat level 3 armour, weighs 6KG. I recomend you buy soma armour lads, cos you can get very fit by jogging with it. Also I ignore pain eg, Shin split(Extremely painful) and impact drops(Jumping from a height with weight. I never stop, so to speak. I take breethers within about 3 minutes of marching for about 1 second to get my breath back, it is almost impossible to breath while carrying weight, simply because it digs into your shoulders and compresses your chest and shoulders down into the lungs.

[hist2004]

SAS Britain,

May I ask what your impressions were of the Recce Pre-Selection. I have
read extensively of the SAS selection and that of the US Delta Force. Both
are obviously difficult in the extreme with only a small percentage of individuals being able to meet the required standards. The Recce standards appear to even exceed the above selection courses. This is
only my opinion...not the final word.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[Scrim]

Man I hate death marches, its immpossible to breath when your dead. :roll:

[Argyll]

I train almost daily with huge weights. I pack about 50kilograms into my rucksack and do a death march across uneven terrain. I would also like to point out that 1mile is not 10kilometers. Her is the exact difference, 1 Mile=1600meters, 1 kilometer is 1000meters. I do about 10 kilometers running with my water and assault boots, Balaklava, and combat level 3 armour, weighs 6KG. I recomend you buy soma armour lads, cos you can get very fit by jogging with it. Also I ignore pain eg, Shin split(Extremely painful) and impact drops(Jumping from a height with weight. I never stop, so to speak. I take breethers within about 3 minutes of marching for about 1 second to get my breath back, it is almost impossible to breath while carrying weight, simply because it digs into your shoulders and compresses your chest and shoulders down into the lungs.

Fan-Dance?
If your going for selection,don't over do the physical side of it,just coz you can tab for days with the kit,it's also about doing it with sleep depravation,also during the hours of darkness,the terrain ain't as easy when ye canny see ****!
The Jungle phase seems to be more the important phases these days,anyway good luck ;)

[El'Potato]

I would also like to point out that 1mile is not 10kilometers. Her is the exact difference, 1 Mile=1600meters,

Well I can tell you that swedish_marine was talking about a swedish/nordic or even perhaps a metric mile (don't know if there's such a thing as a metric mile) but in Sweden a mile is 10km. Not more, not less.

[Red]

What you said sounds desirable but completely stupid and unrealistic. There is no way a full grown man can carry a rucksack of 80KG, The capacity of a British army Bergen is 120lbs, it is known to be the best military rucksack in the world. Also about that 300/400km TAB behind enemy lines it simply sounds insane and not possible. My mates father is an operative of the 23 SAS TA company. He would laugh at you for saying the **** you said. Simply pathetic and unrealitstc. South Africans are tough but not that tough.
It is not only the British Army that carry heavy packs,he might have meant pounds not KG,when i was in we carried packs of up to 50KG and go through forced marches with a full loadout

[hist2004]

The most striking thing I found was the total lack of support on operations-these guys were literally "of their own accord".

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[OzMan]

My leadership officer moved from South Africa. He was some sort of special forces (not sure exactly what), and was a medic. He saw action in Angola, and was shot twice. He took a shotgun blast in the chest, and claims that he had to repair himself after the other medics fainted. He also took a 7.62 from an AKM in the back. I've seen the scars to both wounds. Pretty nasty stuff.

When we asked him what it felt like to take a "pepper blast" in the chest, he said, "Go home, turn the iron on high, and press it to your chest for a minute."

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

'SAS britain' wrote,
There is no way a full grown man can carry a rucksack of 80KG,

How would you know?,

The capacity of a British army Bergen is 120lbs, it is known to be the best military rucksack in the world.

Says who?,

Also about that 300/400km TAB behind enemy lines it simply sounds insane and not possible.

'Chris Ryan' must have been halucinating then,

My mates father is an operative of the 23 SAS TA company

Thats interesting I thought 23 SAS still held regimental status, and since when did SAS personnel become known as 'operatives'?.

I pack about 50kilograms into my rucksack and do a death march across uneven terrain.

And what exactly does that entail?, the 'death' part I mean.

it is almost impossible to breath while carrying weight, simply because it digs into your shoulders and compresses your chest and shoulders down into the lungs.

er, if it was almost 'impossible' to breath then how could you possibly cover any sort of meaningful distance within a realistic time?. A heavy pack does not compress your chest and shoulders down into your lungs, it in actual fact pulls your shoulders back.

Simply pathetic and unrealitstc. South Africans are tough but not that tough.

Right, and you get your information from?, who?, where?.
My last OC is an EX-Recce Commando. He left SA, emigrated and was commissioned into our Army several years ago. He confirmed most of the above, leaving out operational detail. I'm more inclined to believe his word than that of someone who "plans to go undercover and kill recruiters......".

Whats your background 'SAS britain'?. Age, military experience, operational tours completed, etc.
If you don't want to say publicly then PM me.

[SAS Britain]

I am 18, Have some military experience, I am still an Officer Cadet still to be comissioned into the Royal Air Force next year. I am simply doing some fitness training but am not boasting. BTW, I use my ****ty school rucksack to carry this load in and it has not padding and has a small surface area and digs into your shoulders. I also carry a water bottle(so I don't dehydrate. I know you are going to say, "how do you know what people can carry or not." The point is I know because I am judging them by my abilities, I am quite strong for my age and have valuable qualities such as being mentally tough and physically enduring as I said before I do these marches over slightly challenging terrain with Shin Split and 1 lair of socks in Falklands war assault boots(Fantastic boots but very tight).

[Royal]

@ Ngati - you took the words right out of my mouth ;)

Why is a Crab officer cadet calling himself 'SASBritain' exactly? Do you have delusions of adequacy? Wouldn't Nig@Cranwell be a better name?

As to a 120lbs max in a PLCE bergan - every carried ammo for an SF gun, OP kit, a wet Klepper or the like? No? I didn't think so.

BTW Assault boots came in long after the Falklands, even BCH's didn't come in until the mid eighties.

[Swedish_Marine]

I would also like to point out that 1mile is not 10kilometers. Her is the exact difference, 1 Mile=1600meters,

Well I can tell you that swedish_marine was talking about a swedish/nordic or even perhaps a metric mile (don't know if there's such a thing as a metric mile) but in Sweden a mile is 10km. Not more, not less.

That is correct. In sweden there is a term called "mil" and one of these miles is 10 km.

@SAS Britain: A pice of advise to you when you go out on forced marches like you do, get a pack with a waistband and try to put as much of the packs weight on your hips as you can, and let the waist and hips take most of the weight. But also let your shoulders take the weight from time to time because you will eventually end up with wounds on them. Pack your gear with the heaviest stuff in the bottom and the lighter stuff on top, except for your warm covers that you need to access quicker when you stop for breaks.

[SAS Britain]

Interesting, I shall remember that, I normally pack the heaviest first and the lightest on top. I also find is a little difficult to find some PLCE pouches because the British RAF is getting some shortages in uniforms and other kit such as torches and assault vests. I think you might be correct about the "mil," thing BTW an officer cadet is still a good position to fill simply for the fact that I am still training to be an officer.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

I am simply doing some fitness training but am not boasting.

Right, so what did you mean by this,

I pack about 50kilograms into my rucksack and do a death march across uneven terrain.

Some advice 'SAS britain', don't pretend to be something you aren't. There are people on this site with far more experience than you and it usually doesn't take them long to figure out whether you're the real deal or just some numpty talking through his arse.

If you want to learn then keep your mouth shut and listen or ask intelligent thought out questions. Don't voice baseless opinions or make definitive statements without any evidence/experience/facts to back yourself. You'll just piss people off.

[IDFM203]

Interesting discussion. I know that I might disagree with the title as it pertains to only one nation ;) but that is a whole other matter.

Anyways I was just curious, I might have read this somewhere in the past though I am not sure of its authenticity, didn’t Israel (or some units or training schools) have something to do with training (or some type of assistence) some of SA special forces?

Shalom :D

[hist2004]

Yes, they(Israel) trained a select number of Rhodesian SAS. About the title...in all the SOF selection courses I have read about, the RECCES seemed the most "exacting". Again you could probably add North Korean
special forces from their Reconnaissance Bureau as having a severe selection. It was solely based on what I have read and compared too.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[Swedish_Marine]

@SAS Britain: If you have any questions about forced marches just ask. Im quite experienced in that aspect :)

[Royal]

Interesting, I shall remember that, I normally pack the heaviest first and the lightest on top. I also find is a little difficult to find some PLCE pouches because the British RAF is getting some shortages in uniforms and other kit such as torches and assault vests. I think you might be correct about the "mil," thing BTW an officer cadet is still a good position to fill simply for the fact that I am still training to be an officer.

The RAF has a shortage of Gucci kit like assualt vests because it is not scaled for them and with the possible exception of 2 (Para) Sqn RAF Rgt, does not need them.

Me thinks you're an Air Cadet. If you were at Cranwell, you wouldn't have time to do "almost daily" bergan marches...

[martinexsquaddie]

Crab air doing route marches rofl
done tabs with bergan and milan best avoided

[hist2004]

Question for Royal,

If “SAS Britain” is indeed an 18year old Air Cadet looking to try his hand at the SAS selection course; wouldn’t it
be advisable to say, try his hand at the Parachute Regiment or (PRMRC) for the Royal Marines and gain experience
as a member of one these units.(say, for about 4years) The opportunity to refine his tactics, weapons, MAP READING skills, and the maturity
gained from multiple deployments would be invaluable. It would also be an opportunity to see if he would like this type
of “life”. I’m sure working out and “tabbing” when you feel like it is a little different than being at the hands of the SAS Directing
Staff…when it’s done day after day…at night and no “big timing”. I also ask this of any other UK member who has served and is
familiar with what a toll it takes on body & “home Life”.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[Royal]

What's a home life?

Unless he's planning on joining his mate's dad's dog on the hills with 23, he's got no choice. Very few under 23 pass selection.

You're right, a bit of time on the ground puts many off, but is the making of others. There's no 18X program in the UK.

[11F5S]

SASBritian could mean he flew on SAS from Stockholm to Heathrow. :P

[SAS Britain]

U R not funny, BTW I do get some time off, as I said before I am on annual months holiday. I am living in cranwells officers mess, I mostly go out and do some fitness. I have a fair amount of time on my hands but I am not and Air cadet, was in the ATC but did not serve a year. As I said before I am not trying SAS selection, I am training to be RAF regiment officer.

[Royal]

U R not funny, BTW I do get some time off, as I said before I am on annual months holiday. I am living in cranwells officers mess, I mostly go out and do some fitness. I have a fair amount of time on my hands but I am not and Air cadet, was in the ATC but did not serve a year. As I said before I am not trying SAS selection, I am training to be RAF regiment officer.

I didn't know the RAF took annual leave during term time, not that it really surprises me ;)

Cranwell has a capital 'C'.

On a commissioning course and you have 'a fair amount of time' on your hands.

You're going to have even less time on your hands if/when you get to JROC.

[Steve Andrews]

nig@cranwell is a bit scary...
IF he is for real , I hazard a guess that he won't pass out. Sounds like a muppet.

Saying that, we had our fair share of muppet officers in my Regiment...

[CX20]

U R not funny, BTW I do get some time off, as I said before I am on annual months holiday. I am living in cranwells officers mess, I mostly go out and do some fitness. I have a fair amount of time on my hands but I am not and Air cadet, was in the ATC but did not serve a year. As I said before I am not trying SAS selection, I am training to be RAF regiment officer.

How did you manage to get into Cranwell with that standard of literacy? Do they give selection tests on "text messaging english" now?

I was at Cranwell many moons ago (although not as an officer thank god). As far as I know, officer cadets did not stay in the officer's mess. They stayed in the Big House away from the rest of the main part of the base. I am ex-RAF Regiment and ex-Cranwell, a lot of what you've posted here doesn't add up. Sorry.

If your're at Cranwell answer these questions;

1) What is the gate guardian? (it hasn't changed since it was put there)

2) What is the name of the road which leads off the main road (opposite the MT section) to the officer's married quarters?

3) Why is that road called what it is?

4) What colour is the boat house at Hereford?

[CX20]

The RAF has a shortage of Gucci kit like assualt vests because it is not scaled for them and with the possible exception of 2 (Para) Sqn RAF Rgt, does not need them.

Spot on. 2 Sqn always got the better kit than the normal field squadron lads. :(

There's an Air Cadet who's posted in the beginning of this thread who is from a Scottish squadron. In another thread a while ago he mentioned that he had purchased an Arktis long range recce vest for cadet duties! ATC cadets don't even get to take weapons on exercise with them! :cantbeli:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6786&highlight=

[Steve Andrews]

Yeah.....what colour is the boat house at Cranwell?

[SABER 2-3]

I am 18, Have some military experience, I am still an Officer Cadet still to be comissioned into the Royal Air Force next year. I am simply doing some fitness training but am not boasting. BTW, I use my ****ty school rucksack to carry this load in and it has not padding and has a small surface area and digs into your shoulders. I also carry a water bottle(so I don't dehydrate. I know you are going to say, "how do you know what people can carry or not." The point is I know because I am judging them by my abilities, I am quite strong for my age and have valuable qualities such as being mentally tough and physically enduring as I said before I do these marches over slightly challenging terrain with Shin Split and 1 lair of socks in Falklands war assault boots(Fantastic boots but very tight).

Don't forget "very modest" in your bell ringing session. And all BS aside, are you having trouble picking up girls (boys?) or what? And lets you and me compare abilities when your actually on-line, so that you will know what your judging.
Man, and to think...I thought U.S. junior grade officers/cadets were big-headed.

[Steve Andrews]

SAS Britain, be careful if you enter "The Lair of Socks". It can be dangerous in there.

If you do decide to enter make sure that you are wearing your tight Falklands War Assault Boots - or you may get Shin Split.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

4) What colour is the boat house at Hereford? rofl

Nice 'De Niro' moment.

[martinexsquaddie]

he's probably the right elite quality the rock apes look for .
hey if he fails to be a rock ape he can always get to dress like a C an A reject in crab air the Paramilitary wing of BA.
oh look its raining can't fly to day :(
you want to put muddy soldiers in my nice clean helicopters :(

[pinkeye]

i have read that the jtf-2 selection and training course is probably the most difficult course of all services, but the issue in question (toughest selection and training course) is probably more a pissing contest kind of thing.
anyway, i have seen documentaries on american spec. ops units in afghanistan and these guys were 1) reservists, 2) late 30s-early- to mid-40s , and 3) not terribly impressive physically (i.e. no rambos). yet there was no doubt that these guys were as good as it gets. in other words, a tough selection and training process is a crucial part of the equation, but there's more to a good soldier than just whether or not he can march 50 km with a 100 lbs. bag.

[hist2004]

Agreed..I just haven't found anything to match the pre-selection of the Recce's. I haven't read any open source about JTF-2 selection, the Recce's is the most difficult I have ever heard of.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[SAS Britain]

I was told the most important thing to make a good soldier is ones Brain. if you can soldier when you are tired and exhausted that is labeled at toughness. But the most important aspect of a GREAT soldier is tactical thinking. eg, MG nest, some cover, what will you do. Set up an ambush, how to do one. basic stuff and moving onto soma advanced stuff such as Royal Marine combat evasion and other stuff.

[SAS Britain]

I was told the most important thing to make a good soldier is ones Brain. if you can soldier when you are tired and exhausted that is labeled at toughness. But the most important aspect of a GREAT soldier is tactical thinking. eg, MG nest, some cover, what will you do. Set up an ambush, how to do one. basic stuff and moving onto soma advanced stuff such as Royal Marine combat evasion and other stuff.

[hist2004]

Interesting article:

TAKING THE WAR TO SWAPO

From 1978 SWAPO adopted the tactic of "hugging the belt" by placing their camps next to those of their Angolan and Cuban allies in the forlorn hope that this would deter the SouthAfrican Defence Force from attacking them.Swapo quickly found out that this tactic did not work, when the SADF attacked and FAPLA and the Cubans got involved, South Africa would take them on as well, and invariably got the better of themThe overriding concern of the South African Military was to minimise South African losses, and 32 Battalion was admirably suited to achieve this aim, as almost 95% of its members were Angolan.Unita received most of the credit for operations that 32 undertook against FAPLA in Angola.Most of its operations were conducted in close cooperation with South African Reconnaissance Commandos, and it is no idle boast that 32 Battalion was the finest light infantry force in Africa if not the world in its time. In every contact it was in it had to punch way over its weight, every time the opposition came off second best , initially a contact rarely lasted more than a day, sometimes it would be a case of shoot and scoot, but once the externals started, these would drag out, culminating in those on the Lomba River, and Cuito Cuanevale, which were full scale conventional set piece battles

A lot of intelligence was gleaned as a result of intercepted enemy radio traffic, and in some cases members of Reconnaissance Commandos would check this out, insertion behind enemy lines took many forms, from dropping a two man team by helicopter, in many cases the distances involved would doing this would be that great that fuel dumps for the insertion had to established hundreds of kilometres behind the front line, it was no easy task to man these forward air bases waiting for the Choppers to return , knowing that if you were compromised there would be very little one could do except to bombshell and try to make it back to South African lines.

Some teams were inserted using the Navy's Strike Craft from which rigid Ski-Boats would ferry the operators to shore, if this was not possible the Navy would employ its submarines, One factor the Enemy never considered was the fact that the SADF had the capability to use its submarines in this manner. A lot of insertions took place by the simple expedient of walking; there are recorded cases where some of these operators walked over 200 kilometres to get to their target and subsequent operations would be mounted once they exfiltrated, the aim being to disrupt the annual SWAPO offensive in the rainy season, which normally lasted from November to March. Most South African Raids would take place in the dry season, May to September, but to keep SWAPO guessing this rule of thumb would often be disregarded

It soon became apparent that 32 would be an asset in the gathering of intelligence, it was relatively simple for a platoon using counter-tracking to sneak in and out of SWAPO's backyard without being spotted, but a platoon did not pack sufficient fire-power to engage a company sized force, when the SADF deployed company and battalion sized forces SWAPO's outlying security platoons would invariably detect them, giving SWAPO chance to prepare for an attack without the SADF being aware where SWAPO exactly was. Initially 32 experimented with placing a patrol well ahead of the main body in the hope that they would bump the enemy and flee towards the main force in simulated panic, drawing the SWAPO force into an ambush situation, this practise had mixed results, as SWAPO would not rise to the bait, being well aware of the larger force following.

A reconnaissance wing was created and training took place under the legendary Staff Sergeant "Blue" Kelly who arrived towards the end of 1977, together with Ron Gregory at a base situated at Omauni. Sergeant Major Pep Van Zyl initially helped with the selection in the first few days.Blue Kelly later moved on to Special Forces and had a distinguished career in the this unit. Training was based on Special Forces training with the emphasis on small unit tactics, a typical team would consist of three to five men, dressed in SWAPO kit, and armed with PKM and RPD machine guns, this to give them a edge in fire-power to compensate for their lack of numbers. All white members would "black" up as SWAPO would invariably concentrate their fire on the white members of any patrol they would encounter, knowing that these normally would be the leaders. Special emphasis would be given to demolitions, tracking, advanced medical aid, bush craft, navigation, fire control, small boat handling, especially canoeing, all would be small arms experts and jump qualified. One of those who excelled in this dark art was Willem Rätte, on one recce of a SWAPO base he and his companions cold-bloodedly entered the base when darkness fell, only to discover that the base was being partially vacated, and equipment was being packed in trucks for removal. The three calmly helped dismantle the 14,5 mm weapons and move them to their new positions away from the base. Swapo expected an attack, and wanted the weapons in place to ambush the Puma troop-carrying helicopters of the South African Air Force when they came the next morning. After slipping silently away he radioed headquarters and informed them of the situation. The next morning the Swapo base was destroyed in a successful operation, thanks to his timely warning. He later commanded the intelligence section of 32 Battalion. To say the least, he was unorthodox and eccentric. He was a perfectionist who would let nothing and nobody interfere with a well-planned operation.

32 Battalion had the distinction of capturing the only Soviet advisor during the Border War, during Operation Protea, 3 companies of 32 under the command of Commandant James Hills formed part of a stopper group east of Ongiva (formerly Perriera D'Eca), Lieutenant Tinus van Staden spotted a large convoy consisting of BRDM's, tanks and trucks moving towards him from Ongiva. He immediately called for an air strike, and the SAAF Mirages and Impalas roared in soon afterwards, leaving a graveyard of shot out vehicles burning and smoking behind them. By the time 32 moved up to sweep the area, it was getting dark, and the 32 soldiers were somewhat surprised to find the bodies of people dressed in Russian uniforms in and amongst the carnage wrought by the air strike, continuing their sweep towards a kraal they were fired upon, immediately the fire was returned and the kraal over run. To their utter amazement they found several more dead Russians amongst them two women, to one side an unwounded Russian Warrant Officer was cradling the body of his dead wife in his arms and weeping, he had been employed as a mechanic at Ongiva. One of the tragedies of wartime played itself out when it was discovered that some of the dead Russians had their children with them, South African Troops immediately organised search parties, and for several days scoured the countryside looking for these children, to no avail, questioning of the local population produced no results, and reluctantly the South African Forces had to abandon the search, and leave the children to their fate.

During Operation Protea the Recces dropped the bridge at Xangongo, this would make an attack on Cahama by FAPLA well nigh impossible along the west bank of Cunene, the only worry the SADF would have would be the east bank which was supposedly secured by UNITA, 32 was tasked with clearing the enemy from Calueque to beyond Peu-Peu; one company would operate from Calueque to Humbe, and then to Peu-Peu, notwithstanding UNITA's assurance that the east bank was secure, it was decided that another company would operate on the east bank of the Cunene. The company operating from Calueque employing butterfly ops quickly killed a lot of badly trained SWAPO auxiliaries, but did not have any luck finding SWAPO bases, and laid up one night south of the Xangongo-Humbe road, the following day the group was ambushed by FAPLA who soon retreated. The Angolan hierarchy decided that this situation was intolerable and decided that they would attack the South African TAC HQ at Peu-Peu, the first thing the SADF knew was when a patrol reported a FAPLA battle group less than 3 kilometres away, between them the only force was a rifle company of 32 and a couple of 81mm mortars, Captain Jan Hougaardt quickly decided to open fire on the FAPLA force with these, rightly assuming that this would delay the enemy long enough to get the SAAF to rescue them, he was correct in his assumption and before long the Impala jets stationed at Ondangwa arrived at the scene and proceeded to rocket and strafe the FAPLA column, at the end of the day more than forty wrecked enemy vehicles littered the Angolan countryside. Those FAPLA troops who survived retreated on foot to the north or to Cahama. Later on a similar advance from Cahama was attempted by FAPLA, but this time the South Africans would be prepared and this attack on Xangongo, like its predecessor would be stopped cold.

OPERATION SUPER
One of the reasons 32 was so successful was the fact that unlike National Servicemen or Citizen Force Campers, they stayed in the Operational Area constantly, a typical deployment would be 3 months continuous operations, followed by rest and recuperation at Buffalo base, but even then there would be training during this "rest" period. 32 Battalion troops therefore did not have to acclimatise the same way other South African troops had to, most of these soldiers had been fighting side by side since the late '70's. One example might illustrate the fighting prowess of this unique unit

One of the most successful strikes against SWAPO took place during March 1982, 32 had been asked to support a reconnaissance mission that 5 Recce had been tasked with, as most of 32 had been rotated back to Buffalo after 3 months non stop patrolling and fighting, the best that Jan Hougaardt at TAC HQ at Ruacana could was to scrape a platoon together and this motley crew flew out to Marienfluss in the Kaokoveld. The Recce team leader had received intelligence that there might be a possible SWAPO presence in the Cambeno valley close to an abandoned Portuguese settlement called Iona. The 32 troops were only geared up to assist the Recce team if this should be necessary, nobody anticipated that this would turn out to be the start of a battle of epic proportions. In addition to the two Puma Choppers that had brought the 32 platoon, two gunships had flown in with Neall Ellis.

The Recces were dropped east of the point where the road entered the mountains, and quickly ascertained that there was considerable road traffic, and this could only be SWAPO logistical vehicles, and the Recces planted a TM 62 anti-tank mine, and retired to a koppie about a kilometre away keeping the site of the landmine under observation. A while later two SWAPO trucks came down the road, and one detonated the mine, but it did ot seem to cause any casualties, the survivors simply climbed on to the remaining truck, and this drove off. Later on that afternoon a 28 men strong SWAPO patrol approached from the east, and once they reached the site of the mined truck, started casting around for spoor, unfortunately the Recces' anti-tracking measures were not sufficient, and it soon became apparent that the SWAPO patrol had found the South Africans' tracks and were following these towards where the Recces were lying up, the Recces contacted TAC HQ at Marienfluss informing them that they were compromised, and would require assistance, as there was no means they could get away undetected.

The Recce leader realised he had to play for time, and as soon as the SWAPO patrol came within earshot he passed him and his men off as SWAPO, and accused them (the real SWAPO) of being UNITA trying to locate his base camp, this bold ruse threw the SWAPO leader somewhat, and a animated argument developed between the two leaders as to who was in fact the "Boers". The Recce decided that this argument was getting rather boring and realised that there was no future in this, and shot the SWAPO commander in the face, as he shot his opponent, his men opened fire. The Recces soon realised that they were in for the fight of their lives, and the sound of the Allouette Gunships' 20mm blasting the enemy around the hill was music to their ears, in the meantime the 32 Romeo Mike team had been deployed in a skirmish line, and started sweeping up the hill, when the firing stopped 21 SWAPO lay dead, 6 wounded were captured and 1 got away. The wounded Terrs were casevaced to Marienfluss and once interrogated revealed that SWAPO had in fact a camp on the course of the dried up Humbi river in the Cambeno valley. In the meantime Sector 10 at Oshakati was busy organising extra troop reinforcements and Gunships.The choppers at Marienfluss were low on fuel and it was decided to fly in fuel and from the Republic but as their was no airstrip large enough to take the C160 bringing in the fuel it had to land at the nearby Nangola Flats, whilst this was going on another platoon and 81mm mortar team from 32 were flown in for the follow-up operation. After the choppers had refuelled, 4 Allouette gunships and 5 Pumas carrying the 32 troops set off to eliminate the base

As they approached the target area the task force flew into a thunderstorm which reduced visibility to nil, and reluctantly they had to turn back, back at Sector 10 HQ it was decided to scrub the whole plan as the choppers had been close enough for SWAPO to have heard them, the consensus was that by now the camp would have been evacuated, fortunately Jan Hougaardt insisted that SWAPO had not done so, the trail watchers he had positioned on the track north had reported no SWAPO activity along this, finally Sector 10 HQ agreed that an attack could be mounted the following day, 13 March 1982.

When the Gunships arrived at where the SWAPO base was thought to be, there was nothing to be seen, and they circled in vain looking for any sign of activity amongst the sparse thorn scrub without any luck, just as they were about to turn back the Flight Engineer of Neall Ellis, Sergeant Steve Coetzee noticed strange starfish formations radiating from bushes, suddenly he realised what this was, it was SWAPO lying underneath these bushes hoping they would not be spotted, and then everything clicked into place, what he had thought was brown rocks was in fact bivouacs. As soon as the Gunships opened fire SWAPO realised that the game was up, and opened fire on the Allouette's with everything they had, the air was filled with exploding RPG7 rockets, and green tracer from SWAPO arcing upwards and the red tracer from the gunships crisscrossing the early morning sky, The Pumas had dropped off the 32 Battalion assault force, numbering 40 men. Some were dropped as close as 50 metres away from the enemy, the 40 32-Battalion members shook themselves out in assault formation and commenced advancing towards the enemy, fortunately SWAPO had made the fundamental error of situating their base in a narrow valley, overlooked by high ground on all sides, a mistake that would cost them dearly

40 against 300 ..............

The mortar group was dropped off on a nearby hill to give covering fire,

To even the odds the Pumas went and picked up the trail watchers who numbered 20 and brought them back, these stopper groups were dropped on the high ground to block all escape routes, these groups would wreak havoc amongst those SWAPO who decided to gap it. The terrain was a nightmare, rugged with rocks, valleys, cliff faces, dongas, a soldier's nightmare. As 32 advanced they were constantly under intense small-arms fire, every yard gained was in the teeth of determined resistance, there was no doubting SWAPO's willingness to stand and fight. The action started at 08H00 and by 13H00 it was still going as fiercely as ever, the two protagonists slogging it out, bloody fire fights scattered along the assault line as 32 kept up its remorseless advance. Whenever the gunships opened fire with their 20mm cannon it was the unenviable task of the 32 Battalion soldier to reach down and fight in the crevices and crannies where SWAPO would take cover from the gunships .The Allouette's were constantly under RPG-7 rocket fire, and at least 4 SAM-7 were fired at them, fortunately they were to low for the infra-red guided warhead to lock onto their exhaust signature.

The fight carried on through the rest of the day and well into the night, by this time most of the South Africans' ammunition was exhausted, and they had to make do by using ammunition and weapons taken off the dead SWAPO, back at the HAA 5 kilometres away some Pumas were grounded due to a lack of fuel, but by morning it was all over, and 201 dead SWAPO bodies littered the valley floor, many were wounded and there was a significant number of captures

32 lost 3 men KIA, and an unknown number of wounded, 3 Honoris Crux were awarded to its members, another 2 to members of the SAAF. When the base was examined the following morning the South Africans could not believe their eyes, it was a virtual Aladdin's cave with tons upon tons of weapons, equipment and food.

This ranged from AK47's to Sam-7 missiles, mines to medicine, mealiemeal to gherkins, Radios to Zodiac inflatable boats. Sixty tons of this haul was flown out to Marienfluss, and the rest destroyed in situ. Interrogation of the captured Terrs revealed that they had planned to use this base as a staging post to infiltrate Outjo and the farming communities farther south.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[Royal]

and moving onto soma advanced stuff such as Royal Marine combat evasion and other stuff.

Please, O great one, explain to me this Royal Marine combat evasion. I've only been in the Corps for 18 years so I doubt I'm ready for the 'other stuff', but in my time we've always closed with the enemy, not evaded combat...

[hist2004]

Royal-

You guys did a great job at the Al-Faw Peninsula, Basara & Umm Qasr.

Thanks again,

Regards,
Hist2004

[martinexsquaddie]

royal marine combat evasion is cross Dressing in bars and getting naked at the slightest excuse :lol:
made my mob wish to avoid you and we were the QUeens rofl

[Chris1]

royal marine combat evasion is cross Dressing in bars and getting naked at the slightest excuse :lol:
made my mob wish to avoid you and we were the QUeens rofl
Does it involve going on TV trying to shag a trannie?
:D

[martinexsquaddie]

he was probably only trying to steal her wardrobe rofl

[CX20]

I was told the most important thing to make a good soldier is ones Brain. if you can soldier when you are tired and exhausted that is labeled at toughness. But the most important aspect of a GREAT soldier is tactical thinking. eg, MG nest, some cover, what will you do. Set up an ambush, how to do one. basic stuff and moving onto soma advanced stuff such as Royal Marine combat evasion and other stuff.

Do you realise that your're only making yourself look even more stupid with every post, or do you just not care? How can you come on here and spout **** like that in the present company that your're in, and expect to get away with it?

Notice you never answered any of my questions about Cranwell either.............don't want to give yourself away too much as a fake, do you?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

I was told the most important thing to make a good soldier is ones Brain. if you can soldier when you are tired and exhausted that is labeled at toughness. But the most important aspect of a GREAT soldier is tactical thinking. eg, MG nest, some cover, what will you do. Set up an ambush, how to do one. basic stuff and moving onto soma advanced stuff such as Royal Marine combat evasion and other stuff.

You don't listen to good do you sunshine.

Don't voice baseless opinions or make definitive statements without any evidence/experience/facts to back yourself. You'll just piss people off.

Did you get it that time?, or should I write it in crayon for you.

History 2004, good info. Do you have any sources on the camp raids conducted by Rhodesian SAS and RLI during the bush war in the late 70's?.

[Royal]

I'll take **** from an ex-Queen and a falling plate (what's wrong with getting naked anyway?), but I'm f**ked if I'm taking it from a walt who thinks he's a rock ape ;)

[hist2004]

Ngati Tumatuenga-

Try these links, I hope they answer your questions-

http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/wood1.htm

http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/wood2.htm

http://www.lewrockwell.com/peirce/peirce53.html

http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/rhodesian_experience.htm

http://www.eze33.com/brigade/selous.htm

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[digrar]

What was the name of the book by the bloke who jumped from the Parras, SAS, Recce's, rhodesian SAS and one of the Irish police units.
I think his name was Harry McCillion?(something like that).

I think BUD/S is harder.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Thanks hist2004.

Harry Macallion I think Digrar, but I don't think he was in Rhodesia.

I think BUD/S is harder.

Yeah, well you couldn't have a foreign special forces selection being tougher than good ole' American one could you :roll:

[martinexsquaddie]

at least if i was going to pretend to be in the military I'd pick an eltie force like the RLC rofl

[Swedish_Marine]

Thanks hist2004.

Harry Macallion I think Digrar, but I don't think he was in Rhodesia.

I think BUD/S is harder.

Yeah, well you couldn't have a foreign special forces selection being tougher than good ole' American one could you :roll:

You think BUD/S is harder? Well my friend, what i have learned is that the experience of toughness is individual. If two young men, same age regardless of nationality got the chance to attend both BUD/S and for instance the Swedish Attackdiver course which is pretty much the same thing, and manage to negotiate both courses. Both of them may have got seperate experiences. One of them may think that BUD/S was harder and the other one may think that the Attackdiver course was the worst thing he had ever done in his life so far, even harder than BUD/S. What im saying is that noone will ever have the same experince, because two seperate individuals do not share the same psyche.

[SABER 2-3]

QOUTE "You think BUD/S is harder? Well my friend, what i have learned is that the experience of toughness is individual. If two young men, same age regardless of nationality got the chance to attend both BUD/S and for instance the Swedish Attackdiver course which is pretty much the same thing, and manage to negotiate both courses. Both of them may have got seperate experiences. One of them may think that BUD/S was harder and the other one may think that the Attackdiver course was the worst thing he had ever done in his life so far, even harder than BUD/S. What im saying is that noone will ever have the same experince, because two seperate individuals do share the same psyche."

I can't fully agree w/ your statement. Atleast as far as U.S. advanced schools go, it is very common for most to have very similar experiences. That's a important factor, those who have had the exp. of suffering together feel a connection w/ one another. Those who come after you are brought into your team w/o prior knowledge of that individual only by the grace of the older members knowledge that the same standards (read:abuse) are still enforced. It is not a stedfast rule but, it is the norm.

[Saint]

I have a statement and I want to know what you people think because I could be very wrong. I understand that BUDs has a 70% failure rate correct? But you can also apply to BUDs right after basic training right? Wouldn't that make the quality of applicants less good (for lack of a better word) therefore increasing the drop rate significantly? I mean, these guys have no idea what they are about to get into.
That is why I believe that something like SAS or Delta or JTF-2 would be much harder to acheive, since you are taking a person with military experience and putting them through another series of testing with perhaps the same if not more chances for failure.
Once again, I could be talking outta my ass, but Im just curious as to what you good people think!

[hist2004]

Question for FutureMarine-

You stated that you thought BUDS was harder. I'd like to know why you feel that way. If you go to the Navy's Web site and look at the Seal's
pre-selection requirements, and compare them to the Recce's pre-selection..I personally don't see a comparison.

Saint is correct, unless the individuals have prior service, personnel attending BUDS do so after basic training and their MOS school.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[Swedish_Marine]

Okay. I´ll rephraze it a little first. To compare BUD/S and the Swedish Attackdiver course is really no use, because the aims are not the same, but they have similar tasks. But let me tell you the differences between attackdiver and BUD/S, at least from my own view and based on my own knowledege:

To attend BUD/S you have to meet certain physical standards. Correct? That means run a certain amount of miles in XX minutes, and so forth. And you have to be an enlisted sailor first ( except for officers right? ) Not all of them, but at least a majority get a chance to attend BUD/S, and those who fall out do so because the lack of willpower, they don´t want it badly enough.

When you want to be a Swedish attackdiver you have to do the following: You have to score VERY high marks on the compulsory reqruitment testing and volonteer for Kustjägare ( coastal ranger/Marine commando ). When/if you are accepted you must pass another testing period of two days where you are interviewed by KJ-officers and psychologists, and several physichal tests, including a 10 km run in less than 49 minutes, however 49 minutes won´t be enough anyway. Other tests include water tests. If you are accepted to the KJ-company another few months remain untill you are enlisted and start your training.

Uppon starting training you must litterally survive the first seven weeks of basic soldiering ( in a gruelling tempo ) in the last week you can try out for the attackdiver programme. I have no details about the tests and even if i did i would not share them anyway, they are supposed to be secret. But last year only 9 divers were trained. And i assure you that much more than just 9 tried it.

What im trying to get to is that the selection method is different from that of BUD/S, and work better because once they got what they want, very few drops off because you are tested before the training actually starts, that´s not the way BUD/S work. But that´s just the impression i got.

@SABER 2-3
Each of theese training programmes are without a doubt very tough and demanding but the methods of selection and training differ between the two as i have written above. BUD/S candidates are met with verbal and mental abuse. Attackdivers are also met with mental abuse but not that much verbal abuse, at least not when their specific diver and specialist training starts. The officers do not have to yell at them. But they do a lot of yelling in the first weeks, believe me.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Yeah, well you couldn't have a foreign special forces selection being tougher than good ole' American one could you

It was sarcasm swede, hence the rolling eyes..............

[Bootneck]

I think you may be referring to Peter McAleese and his book "No Mean Soldier".

Amazon synopsis - "Brought up in Glasgow, Peter McAleese was determined to become a soldier. Having joined the Parachute Regiment in 1960, he fought with the SAS in Aden and Borneo, and his career then became a quest for action and danger, taking him from Angola to service in the Rhodesian SAS. This is his story."

Not a bad read.

What was the name of the book by the bloke who jumped from the Parras, SAS, Recce's, rhodesian SAS and one of the Irish police units.
I think his name was Harry McCillion?(something like that).

[Jeff White]

This is the funniest ****ing thread on this site............by a mile, or is that 10 km :lol:

That knobber from the RAF (and I have my doubts there as well) who joined in..........priceless.........did he really say 'death march' :lol: :lol:

The only people who give a flying **** whos training is harder are kids who have never done any.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

No, its definitely not Peter McAleese. He wasn't a Recce Commando and this guy Harry Mcallion(?) wasn't in Rhodesia. He did end up joining the RUC and then becoming a lawyer.

Jeff, you should read some of his other posts where he talks about going 'undercover and executing' chechen recruiters in UK..... :roll:

[digrar]

I'm getting the two mixed up. I've read both, but someone needed my copy of Harry's book more than I did and took it.
McAleese was the one who served in Rhodesia.

[SAS Britain]

Jeff, your such a nonce. Go home and marry your grandmother. Also you turd head, Ngati. Have you everheard of a joke???? nah.... didn't thinks so!!!! :lol:

[ShadowNeo]

turd head

Not exactly the kind of thing you'd probably hear a "potential SAS guy" saying. :cantbeli:

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Thats because hes a full of ****e wannabe.

Death marches with his school bag... rofl

[SAS Britain]

I do fitness marches in my free time at Cranwell. I don't use a Bergen there is a shortage of them. Same as everything. Ngati you are a fool and a low life which will never accomplish anything. I am no wannabe. why else do you think I would use my old rucksack.

[MarineDEP4]

I do fitness marches in my free time at Cranwell. I don't use a Bergen there is a shortage of them. Same as everything. Ngati you are a fool and a low life which will never accomplish anything. I am no wannabe. why else do you think I would use my old rucksack.

because your not a very wealthy wannabe?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Ngati you are a fool and a low life which will never accomplish anything.

Gosh, that's disconcerting.

Speaking of fools, you of course would be qualified to recognise one considering what you've posted here so far;

My uncle was a member of Spetsnaz and saw service in Afghanistan and first and second Chechen war......BTW i am thinking of going under cover and killing recruiters in Britain.

Can't see a JK or a :lol: symbol there. Not very responsible conduct for a, supposed, future leader of men. But wait theres more;

The AK-74 has the same accurace as the M-16.

Of course personal experience tells you that.

The Russians are the toughest race in the world the same for Britain and South Africa and everyone can just for get it.

But wait, didn't you say;

South Africans are tough but not that tough.

So are they amongst the toughest in the world or not?.

and then there's,

What you said sounds desirable but completely stupid and unrealistic. There is no way a full grown man can carry a rucksack of 80KG

I pack about 50kilograms into my rucksack and do a death march across uneven terrain.

rofl

Also I ignore pain eg, Shin split(Extremely painful) and impact drops(Jumping from a height with weight. I never stop, so to speak. I take breethers within about 3 minutes of marching for about 1 second to get my breath back, it is almost impossible to breath while carrying weight, simply because it digs into your shoulders and compresses your chest and shoulders down into the lungs.

rofl rofl

BTW, I use my ****ty school rucksack to carry this load in

rofl rofl rofl

And you still have yet to answer CX20's questions about Cranwell. Why is that?.

Been too busy 'death marching' in you school rucksack?.

I think its rather indicative of your probable status, ie, ballbag, loser, wannabe, that you seem to have immense problems with literacy and tact. Far more than I would expect from an Officer Cadet at Cranwell, or any Officer Cadet for that matter.

Of course having said all of the above I shall now be forced to live in abject fear that you might, perhaps 'go undercover' and come looking for me. rofl

[Steve Andrews]

Phew....that Death March was hard!!
http://home.freeuk.net/mkb/SUG/Traditional/gaberdine.JPG

[Haiw]

rofl
This is pure comedy... :lol:

[martinexsquaddie]

raf death march
which wanker booked the rooms so far from the bAR rofl

[CX20]

I do fitness marches in my free time at Cranwell. I don't use a Bergen there is a shortage of them. Same as everything. Ngati you are a fool and a low life which will never accomplish anything. I am no wannabe. why else do you think I would use my old rucksack.

Take some advice from an ex-Rockape - get a very big crank and wind your neck in.

So, what is the name of the road at Cranwell which leads to the officer's married quarters from the main station road? You should know this if your're at Cranwell, as you'd go past it at least several times a day. Also, where is the station Dog Section located? What colour is the outside of the station guardroom?

If you can't answer those questions, then it's confirmed that you are a fake. Anyone who is or has been at Cranwell will know those things immediately.

[Dominique]

Sighhhhhh.......Why do people keep posting these questions. :roll:

[Red]

I think SASbritain is a fake,a wannabe,a poser, a no-show, a flossie, a nonBTDT.To mention but a few :D

[Jeff White]

Jeff, your such a nonce. Go home and marry your grandmother. Also you turd head, Ngati. Have you everheard of a joke???? nah.... didn't thinks so!!!! :lol:

:lol::lol: fcuk me I'm ****ting myself now :lol:

Grow up, get a life and stop reading 'soldier of fortune' :lol:

BTW..........the wedding went well, on honeymoon at the moment ;)

[SAS Britain]

well, I think the same about you Ngati, about your poor literacy skills. As for you Benibo, you are an idiot and not even worth this post. U R so low that you can be labeled as lower than dust. last but not least, Andrew. U R quite the comedian roflroflroflroflrofl but that is not the kind of phoho I had in mind. I wear DPM uniform with bala rolled up(Very warm) my rucksack is a black NIKE rucksack quitedurable but painfully unpadded. That photo is simply lame. I never work a goody goody uniform like that turd in the picture.

[SAS Britain]

Grown up, got a life. Never read "soldier of fortune." for the honeymoon I am happy for you rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Haiw]

A You still haven't answered CX20's questions.
B Good going, pissing on all the BTDTs in this thread. I suppose you do that in the army as well? "You don't know **** lieutenant sir, you stupid idiot!"
C **** off. Take that as good advice from a non-BTDT.

[Argyll]

Thanks to some mindless individuals this has ruined a good thread........and to which it will now be locked at the originators request

[Royal]

Just had to move this one into the archive....