breaking news Al qaeda Tape Claims Responsibility - BBC

[Luxembourger]

Its just on BBC AL QEDA TAPE CLAIMS RESPONSIBILITY


BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!


we europeans should stop blaming our governments we should not fear to blame the arab terrorists even if some people then think we are raciists

[Kilgor]

yeah... just on the net now looking up for details.

Time for defensive measures is over. The modern world must take the fight to these animals and exterminate them. Governments who fund or shelter these groups by proxy then claim no responsibily must be brought to account.

Its very simple... as Bush said, your either with us or against us.

Most of all the liberal media must stop this bull**** that its always someone elses fault than the terrorists.

[Pooga]

I just hope the Spaniards won't go to crazy with the anti-Aznar protests.

[MEGR]

I saw it as just breaking. Now, do you think this will mobilize more of Spains armed forces into fights like Afghanistan and Iraq? Like, I saw the Spanish as peace keepers not really going out and knocking stuff down; however, will this change?

[anonymous individual]

This wasn't a suprise to me.

[Collosus]

Lets start from "cleaning" europe from this elements, they find shelter in UK,France i Germany and they consider us as a weak people.

[Luxembourger]

I can t stand this anymore again these anti-war peace protestors now being against any violence now that will be used agains those **** terroriists.

We will always be on the defensive here in europe blaming ourselves and looking for the roots of islamic terror in our own camp because we just don t want to be portrayed as racists when we attack the arab terrorists.

all this makes me more filled with hate . You heard about that pregnant woman killed too in the train ? disgusting ,,,,and we should now sit here and do nothing and go against our politicians or like the peace idiots going agaist their police and military,,,,

The military and the police forces are the most important forces to crush those terrorists......do you think talking with bin laden in his tent and signing a peace treaty would satisfate the families of all the vicitims ?


I got more angry yesterday when I read the opinion of one of that socialist newspaper s journalists who said that it s Aznars , Bush and the Wests fault that we are attakced by terrorists

[MapleLeafInfantry]

Most of all the liberal media must stop this bull**** that its always someone elses fault than the terrorists.
Thats an incredibly ignorant statement....
the reason why media thought the bombing in madrid was ETA is because their prime minister told them.

In the USA, if the Pres was to say that action x was done by terrorists, people believe.
Likewise in 99.9% of the countries with a legitimate government.

No one should be so hastily jumping to conclusions. If my elected officials told me that it was the FLQ who blew up an english language store in quebec,
i'd believe what they say, likewise if they had said its any other terrorist group.
The problem is jumping to conclusion, being irrational and in many cases general arrogance.

I'd rather it be the right person on my bayonet, even if it takes longer,
then kill the innocent, due to the passions of an overzealous person trying
to get revenge by whomever is accessible, blind of those at fault.

mli

[Argyll]

yeah... just on the net now looking up for details.

Time for defensive measures is over. The modern world must take the fight to these animals and exterminate them. Governments who fund or shelter these groups by proxy then claim no responsibily must be brought to account.

Its very simple... as Bush said, your either with us or against us.

Most of all the liberal media must stop this bull**** that its always someone elses fault than the terrorists.

You've already been In Afghanistan,and Iraq,and neither are even remotely finished,if anything Afghanistan is falling backwards,and Iraq is still a powder keg,with no real end of hostilities in sight.
Perhaps your Pearls of Wisdom should be said here,what do you suggest?
Invade Pakistan?Invade Saudia Arabia?
These are the 2 biggest Supporters of AQ out there,what a great idea,lets start another conflict without ending the 2 that are currently ongoing as we speak!!


What has been shown here is that AQ can strike anywhere they want to,and there's not a fokin thing we can do about it.

I've just been on a North sea Ferry and I never got searched once!
I could have had my van stacked with HE and drove it straight into Sullom Voe Oil terminal!! Security my arse,fokin complacency on behalf of the British Government,and Security services!

[Argyll]

Lets start from "cleaning" europe from this elements, they find shelter in UK,France i Germany and they consider us as a weak people.
Hey ring piece,the 9/11 Hijackers were living in the USA so quit this Anti European ****e once and for all,I'm sick to the back teeth of people like you who know fok all about what Europe has endured through terrorism since the 60's........................TAKE A FOKIN HISTORY LESSON!!

Terrorism is relatively new on USA home soil,we in the UK have been living under it since the 1970's


Stupid bloody clown!

[California Joe]

How do really feel Argyll?

[Argyll]

Through a serious of nerve endings in my fingers Joe,and you? ;)

[Luxembourger]

I haven t yet heard Amnesty international or other human rights organisation concerning the bombings
you only hear from them like now " Americans using excesive force in Afghanistan"

[California Joe]

Through a serious of nerve endings in my fingers Joe,and you? ;)

About the same way pal. Unless of course I'm not wearing pants.

[ShadowNeo]

Would you even need to hear a human rights organisation condemning the bombing? Do you think people need to hear the fact that it was disgusting and unjust from a human rights organisation? Personally I think they can discern that themselves.

Comparing it to whats going on in Afghanistan is different, think about it for a second, how often do you hear about the quality of life for the people over there? If a human rights organisation didn't voice its concerns about the situation, do you think anyone would even know about it?

[Argyll]

I haven t yet heard Amnesty international or other human right organisation concerning the bombings
you only hear from them like now " Americans using excesive force in Afghanistan"

Are these orginisations you mentioned in the habit of coming out and condemning terrorist activities?

do you mean something like this?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur410042004


Don't start shooting your mouth off without getting the facts first!!

[Elmo]

I can t stand this anymore again these anti-war peace protestors now being against any violence now that will be used agains those **** terroriists.

We will always be on the defensive here in europe blaming ourselves and looking for the roots of islamic terror in our own camp because we just don t want to be portrayed as racists when we attack the arab terrorists.

all this makes me more filled with hate . You heard about that pregnant woman killed too in the train ? disgusting ,,,,and we should now sit here and do nothing and go against our politicians or like the peace idiots going agaist their police and military,,,,



I'm pretty sure no one is against bringing these terrorists to justice.
I hope I speak for all the peace idiots by saying that.

When "we" attack those terrorists (have to find them first), no one will consider us to be racists.
If we start discriminating Islam in general because of these cowards, it'll only strenghten their position.

[Argyll]

I haven t yet heard Amnesty international or other human rights organisation concerning the bombings
you only hear from them like now " Americans using excesive force in Afghanistan"

and again

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR410032004?open&of=ENG-ESP

[Groove]

I hope the Crusades will become actual soon...

[Falco]

Who ever did it, it's still a shame.

[Luxembourger]

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur410042004


Don't start shooting your mouth off without getting the facts first!!

Hey MODERATOR I am reading mostly written major eurpean newspapers
and not all on the internet ... and until now none of them has mentioned Amnestys Statment . If Amnesty has stated on their HP their condolances good for them and I am wrong then ,,,but I am sorry that I am not 24/24 on the internet getting everything, searching and beliving everything what s on the net . So you can consider me as a big mouth opener as you mentioned or ban me because I have a different opinion or angered you ,,,,

I relaized that since you " SIr Moderator" are Moderator you don t stand people anymore whose posts don t match your opinion .

regards

[ShadowNeo]

Argyll had a valid point, would you rather he hadn't brought it to your notice?

[Luxembourger]

it s good he made that point but I didn t like the way how he did like " mouth opening "
I said
If Amnesty has stated on their HP their condolances good for them and I am wrong then
there are two ways to get the point to someone in a friendly or aggressive way.
Even if this is only internet...I don t like that language and I don t like to use it too

[One?]

I hope the Crusades will become actual soon...


rofl rofl

no seriously I'm offended!


oh by the way fuk al-qaeda. They dont represent anyone.

[Argyll]

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur410042004


Don't start shooting your mouth off without getting the facts first!!

Hey MODERATOR I am reading mostly written major eurpean newspapers
and not all on the internet ... and until now none of them has mentioned Amnestys Statment . If Amnesty has stated on their HP their condolances good for them and I am wrong then ,,,but I am sorry that I am not 24/24 on the internet getting everything, searching and beliving everything what s on the net . So you can consider me as a big mouth opener as you mentioned or ban me because I have a different opinion or angered you ,,,,

I relaized that since you " SIr Moderator" are Moderator you don t stand people anymore whose posts don t match your opinion .

regards


Read your post ver very carefully before acting like a huge asshole
all I did was do a search and they were there,simple,you made an incorrect statement,and again it was based on YOUR Opinion,I mearly pointed out that your statement was wrong!!
Yes you angered me ,you never heard of the IRA and the campaign of terror it ran for near 40 years here in the UK.

My post had nothing to do with my opinion,it corrected YOUR opinion get over it dry your fokin eyes ,and again don't have a go at me on a personal level because I am a moderator,this isn't the 1st time either

[Luxembourger]

If we start discriminating Islam in general because of these cowards, it'll only strenghten their position.

no one will discriminate ISLam if we crush the terroriists.

[Argyll]

it s good he made that point but I didn t like the way how he did like " mouth opening "
I said
If Amnesty has stated on their HP their condolances good for them and I am wrong then
there are two ways to get the point to someone in a friendly or aggressive way.
Even if this is only internet...I don t like that language and I don t like to use it too

And what were you implying then about AI?,the very way you put your statement across was in an intentional flaming manner!

I said you shot your mouth off before getting the facts,which you did,you did not even bother doing any research,you jumped the gun,and were factually wrong.........and not for the 1st time either

[Luxembourger]

huge asshole
again ?

it s not my fault if those IRA terrorists killed many innocent people in GB
and in N.Irland and even if I am a catholic I am against them !
but what does IRA have to do with me ????



even bother doing any research,you jumped the gun,and were factually wrong.........and not for the 1st time either

I did make research but sorry that I did not 100% on the internet .

again AI did made the statment it s on their HP ok I was wrong wrong wrong wron wrong .

[Argyll]

huge asshole
again ?

it s not my fault if those IRA terrorists killed many innocent people in GB
and in N.Irland and even if I am a catholic I am against them !
but what does IRA have to do with me ????


Because Luxembourger they are terrorists,don't matter if they're Catholic Protestant,Hindu,Sikh,or Muslim,they are all terrorists,stop singling out Al Quida as if they are the only terrorist faction in the world today.

You make statements about crushing them.........I'd love to know your battle Plan............you cannot kill an Ideology

even in your 1st post you singled out Muslim fanatics,yet failed to mentioned the 20+ European terror Orgs

You also mentioned your hate for them,and how people will sit and do nothing..........put your money where your mouth is and Join the Armed forces and stand with your fellow countrymen in this war against terror

[Argyll]

One thing puzzles me in this attack.............compared to 90% of the previous attacks that were "related" to AQ.........



..........they were not Suicide bombs

[Luxembourger]

they're Catholic Protestant,Hindu,Sikh,or Muslim,they are all terrorists,stop singling out Al Quida as if they are the only terrorist faction in the world today.

what ??? you pretend that I am singling out Quida as if they are the ony terroirst faction in the world today????

When did I pretend that ? during the 70s and 80s I would have said too
" crush the IRA, the ROTE ARMEE Fraktion , Brigade Rosso, "

and if I was talking about muslims terroirsts in my first post does that mean I forgot all the others?

I cannot in all posts having to do with all the terror attacks in the 90s mention
all single terror groups . Just have in mind that I know about those european terrorirsts groups and that they are of the same kind of AL Qaeda.

[Luxembourger]

..........they were not Suicide bombs

and yes that s really strange too but it it might have been as some members mentioned a cooperation between Eta and AQ

[Argyll]

I can t stand this anymore again these anti-war peace protestors now being against any violence now that will be used agains those **** terroriists.

We will always be on the defensive here in europe blaming ourselves and looking for the roots of islamic terror in our own camp because we just don t want to be portrayed as racists when we attack the arab terrorists.

all this makes me more filled with hate . You heard about that pregnant woman killed too in the train ? disgusting ,,,,and we should now sit here and do nothing and go against our politicians or like the peace idiots going agaist their police and military,,,,

The military and the police forces are the most important forces to crush those terrorists......do you think talking with bin laden in his tent and signing a peace treaty would satisfate the families of all the vicitims ?


I got more angry yesterday when I read the opinion of one of that socialist newspaper s journalists who said that it s Aznars , Bush and the Wests fault that we are attakced by terrorists

It certainly seems so in your posts,no reference to crushing other Nations Terrorist cells mentioned here

Terrorism is Terrorism no matter where or by whom,the war on Terror must not just be about the fight against the Fundamentalists,but Terrorism as a whole!!

[Luxembourger]

It certainly seems so in your posts,no reference to crushing other Nations Terrorist cells mentioned here

I did not mention this in this thread simply because this thread is about the AL Qaeda tape .

It s like in a exam. I f I have to write about Hitler s expansion in the east why should I mention Napoleons expanison in the east too ? you can lose mark if writing stuff that has nothing to do with your topic.
I am poiinting my critics right now mostly on Arab terrorism because most attacks that happend all those years were done by them .

and I am aware of any other terrorist groups and that those should be dealt whit the same force than Al Qaeda.

[Argyll]

It certainly seems so in your posts,no reference to crushing other Nations Terrorist cells mentioned here

I did not mention this in this thread simply because this thread is about the AL Qaeda tape .

and I am aware of any other terrorist groups and that those should be dealt whit the same force than Al Qaeda.

I mentioned it because you were getting angry,same way I did when I was In Northern Ireland after seeing the effects of a bomb at first hand,the difference here is that I could do something about it

[Luxembourger]

that s good that you could do something but me as a civilian I can t do anything , joining the Army? are you kidding ? the Lux Army ? :)


I mentioned it because you were getting angry

I was angry because of the language ,,,,,,,I appreciate if someone can correct me and help me to make a post better .,,,it was the way how it was said.

ok now I stop because we are a bit off topic now.

[usa320]

Id dont blame the media for reporting it was ETA. Thats what the government had suspected.

I do however blame the people for being too ignorant to see the big picture.

They blame the US, they blame Anzar. They blame everyone but the people they should be blamming. The TERRORISTS.

Dont tell me that the attack was some last minute decision because Spain stood against terrorism. That attack took at least a 6 months to plan and execute. Terrorists dont care if people support the US or not. They dont see that. What they see is two things. 1. The civilized world. 2. Their own kind.

Anyone not in Category 2 is a target.

And i praise anzar for standing up to these scum.

The people in Europe need to wake up now before its too late. Its not their governments fault, its not Americas fault. Terrorism's only perpetrator is terrorists themselves. What next? When france gets bombed will they all say "It was the British's fault?" or when germany gets bombed (they almost did last year) will they say "America put us in this situation?" probably, but until they lose that attitude of "Its someone elses problem" militant islam will be a MAJOR problem in Europe.

It shouldnt take more lives lost before Europe gets serious on terrorism. The US, Canada, Australia, Britain, Italy, Poland, Russia, **** even Vietnam realize how big of a problem it is and how it must be dealt with- but for some reason it seems certain western European nations much rather just lay blame at someone else or point fingers rather than address the problem in a way the tangos understand.

John Kerry says he wants to end hostilities and negotiate with these people. ****, let me see him sit down and try negotiating with Osama Bin Laden. Bin Laden dont care if your conservative, liberal, democrat, republican. If you arent like him, he wants to kill you, and the only way to stop the killing of innocents is to continue killing the not so innocent.

[One?]

@USA320:

why would AQ target spain then? Just for the hell of it? If spain didn't invade Iraqi they won't have a reason. And yes they do need to justify their acts because they want to recruit more people. If they randomly go around killing people who would want to join them.

[cut]

Id dont blame the media for reporting it was ETA. Thats what the government had suspected.

I agree, but don't forget a lot of signs pointed to them. no chatter, they threatened to bomb railway stations before, they threatened to bomb just before major national events (election coming up), and ETA were caught just before christmas trying to carry out a similar attack.


I do however blame the people for being too ignorant to see the big picture.

I always think it is wrong to dismiss a whole nation as ignorant, it may be true about places like north korea where they are kept from the truth. But in spain there is free press, no offence but it is far more likely that you are ignorant to where they are coming from. The advantage of reading a forum like this is that you can find out things that you wouldn't otherwise, for example I can understand that american gun laws work in the US, but I also know that the UK would not benefit from these lax gun laws, I understand this and I look down on americans who fail to realise that the system works in the UK.



They blame the US, they blame Anzar. They blame everyone but the people they should be blamming. The TERRORISTS.

The fact is they wouldn't have been attacked by al qaida if Aznar's government hadn't taken such a major role in going to war, especially when many of them were against it. Now they have to fear terrorism from two factions. They have every right to be pissed off.

As for blaming the US, it's a bit unfair, but it was the US that triggered the threat of terrorism of al-quaida somehow and they did put a lot of pressure on european states to join the coalition, that wouldn't have wanted to take this risk otherwise. I'm willing to bet that supporting the US in their war against terrorism has cost Anznar his job.


Dont tell me that the attack was some last minute decision because Spain stood against terrorism. That attack took at least a 6 months to plan and execute. Terrorists dont care if people support the US or not. They dont see that. What they see is two things. 1. The civilized world. 2. Their own kind.

It has been over a year since the war in Iraq and even longer than that when the US, UK and Spain met to make the decision to go to war, which in my opinion is what set al quaida against Spain.

The Terrorist attack particular countries not all civilized countries, why do you think Bin Laden bothers to name the countries in his tapes.



Anyone not in Category 2 is a target.

morroco?


And i praise anzar for standing up to these scum.

who are you calling scum, the people who have suffered for you? Aznar is supposed to listen to the people that voted him in or show them that what he is doing is the right thing, he has done neither, this is democracy.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39885000/jpg/_39885856_relatives_b203_ap.jpg
scum?


The people in Europe need to wake up now before its too late. Its not their governments fault, its not Americas fault. Terrorism's only perpetrator is terrorists themselves. What next? When france gets bombed will they all say "It was the British's fault?" or when germany gets bombed (they almost did last year) will they say "America put us in this situation?" probably, but until they lose that attitude of "Its someone elses problem" militant islam will be a MAJOR problem in Europe.

France are not likely to get bombed by al-quaida, same goes for germany, or countries that have remained out of the fray like switzerland.
And if they did they wouldn't blame america, it is a totally different situation, because they managed to stand up to US pressure and do what the people they represent wanted.

It is not your place to determine whether militant islam is a problem in their country or not, just because they were against the war in Iraq which was not a war against terrorists, doesn't mean they are not doing just as much as the states to find terrorists in their own countries, their commitement to Afghanistan should make this clear to you.



It shouldnt take more lives lost before Europe gets serious on terrorism. The US, Canada, Australia, Britain, Italy, Poland, Russia, **** even Vietnam realize how big of a problem it is and how it must be dealt with- but for some reason it seems certain western European nations much rather just lay blame at someone else or point fingers rather than address the problem in a way the tangos understand.

Spain should be in that list they were one of the main initiated in the war on terrorism and yet you don't mention them, why? they have paid a higher price then all but the US for the fight against al quaida. Europeans have a lot more experience with terrorism has it ever occured to you that there are otherways to do this? When was the last IRA bomb? Hitting them hard didn't help in that case.



John Kerry says he wants to end hostilities and negotiate with these people. f***, let me see him sit down and try negotiating with Osama Bin Laden. Bin Laden dont care if your conservative, liberal, democrat, republican. If you arent like him, he wants to kill you, and the only way to stop the killing of innocents is to continue killing the not so innocent.

no kill osama, but don't go to war with Syria and those other countries as I said northern ireland is working at the moment, it's hard it's not as fun but it's not going to cost the lives of US servicemen.

[Kilgor]

Most of all the liberal media must stop this bull**** that its always someone elses fault than the terrorists.
Thats an incredibly ignorant statement....


Really ??

I follow the left media and in particular people like Chomsky and Moore.
This is their ignorant statements.

Blame American foreign policy
Blame Bush
Blame Republicians
Blame Jews
Blame Israel
Blame Oil
Blame western wealth
Blame media stereotypes of Arabs

In their eyes, Islamic suicide bombers are nothing but poor victims forced into suicide bombings by "us".

Its about time the bull**** stopped.


, but don't go to war with Syria and those other countries

Maybe this is where these monsters are comming from ? These governments fund these groups by proxy , claim no responsibily but enjoy the bloodshed they create. Just how many Islamic terrorist camps enjoy shelter from arab countries ??

[Kilgor]

France are not likely to get bombed by al-quaida, .

Your forgetting about the headscaf issue.

France is in worst situation of Europe. They will soon pay the price for letting hordes of muslims in the gates.

[cut]

you are right I did forget the religious artifacts issue.

but the muslim hordes thing is the stuff of your imagination 5% of the population is small. And the french aren't the ones that make party political programmes in minority languages

[obd]

Actually Argyl, many of the terrorists were living in America only during the final stages for thier plans. Most grew up in Europe or went to university in Europe. Example would be Mohamed Attah who lived in Germany for quite some time before comign to American to do his dirty deed. In addition, many, if not most, of the support networks, for these terrorists are not actually in the middle east but in Asia and Europe.

Most of the "home nations" for these terrorists are not very amicable to operations if you know what I mean. Europe, however, is a very safe place to operate by comparison (pre 9-11). Why do you think AQ and other tango groups call London "Londonistan"??? In actual fact, as of 9-11, AQ documents show that they were still trying to build a stable network in the US beyond disparate groups of 5 or 10 but they had created vast networks in Europe.........Whether of not they have on in US at the moment is anyones guess.......

The fact of the matter is that Europe, until post 9/11, was VERY complacent to Arab terrorists and despite having experience with a great many grassroots small time groups (with the notable exception of IRA of course) they still did little to combat the spread of Islamic radicalism and so did the United States since it was "not in our back yard" as the saying goes.......

It is a known fact that despite lax immigration procedure it was still dificult for Arabs to operate in America so they preferred to "home base" in Europe/Asia as much as possible even thought the primary target was often America. In captured AQ tapes and manuals displayed by CNN and also as official documents by the US Govnt, AQ seems to have studied ways to operate in America but found it difficult to do so and suggested operating in Europe or Asia until the final stages were ready and the operation was being conducted, such as in the case of 9-11.

I think Europe needs to realize that being accepting of these Arab radicals is not going to protect it from attacks and will only delay them a little while longer. If Europe continues to let these men in as political refugees and such then eventually the price will be paid in blood and lives and money.....

Europe better realize that they are in a more dangerous position than the US at the moment. Europe has a huge Arab population and thus a ready base for Islamic terror...... I think recent events have shown that being accepting of them and not cracking down will not stop them from attacking. The idea that liberal and accepting societies do not produce terrorists, while a nice idea and certainly worth something, has been proven wrong.

Also I think it is a stupid argument to blame the attacks on "the government because it is in A-stan or Iraq". To say that is to argue that we should sit cowering within our borders and let the world go all to hell for fear we might piss some radicals off and they might want to kill us....Sooner or later they will attack on your own land if they arnt defeated on thier own land. Pure and simple.........Islamist ideology does not spare anyone in the end. It may concentrate on some before others, but in the end all will fall within the bounds of terror one by one.. First it will be America and Europe and if we should fall or falter, it will be still others.......

In France for example, which until the infamous "headscarf ban" months ago was one of the most accepting of its Arab minority, they found that despite living in a tolerant and liberal society alarmingly large portions of Muslum youth were radical and militant, hence the knee jerk reaction by the french.

Fact is this: "Arabism" or "Islamism" is experiencing a world-wide growth at the moment that shows no sign of slowing. It is a new phenomenon. It began after the "Arab defeat" of the Soviet Union as Islamist scholars tell the story and will not end until America and its allies are in ashes or are under the Koran, whichever comes first...... Even in societies which are moderate it is growing at a rate that worries many social scientists........

I think the world has yet to see the full force of this global phenomenon of radicalisation of Islamic youths agaisnt western liberal and capitalist values......

When I studied the Rape of Nanking in my World War Two class I came across a few interesting translations of works by Japanese historians studying how the population was mobilized for offensive war over a period of many years through several tactics. The strategy was very well though out and comprehensive, starting at youth and essentially brainwashing children. It became evident that the Japanese were preparing the society for war long before they invaded Manchuria. I see similar tactics being used in the Arab world, starting in the Madrasa's and continuing..........

If you go to virtually any Muslum country, even a moderate one such as Morracco, you will find a great many Islamist Madrasas which previsously would have had no place in society and would not have been accepted. Essentially, they would have been run out of town but now they are welcomed.......I know this because I have family in Morracco and I know that it is one of the most westerner freindly Islamic nations on earth......yet it has become more dangerous to be "white" there as you are targeted imediately as a American or European....

Here is a fact: Unless terror is combated from all sides it will never be brought to a low enough level to become irrelevant. It is impossible to defeat Islamic terrorism because there will always be those who feel injustice no matter what but we must do the following:

1. Attempt to understand why there are so many Muslum youth these days turning to radicalism

2.Find and address the real or perceived greivances that are turning them to terror such as lack of democracy, imperialism, lack of opportunity, oppression etc....

3.Deal peacefully with the political movements which have greivances and try to adress them and affect change and at the least give them the ability to express themselves in an open and free way.

4. Support democracy world wide and stop supporting whatever system gives us the most profits.

5.Have as a national policy the goal of defeating dictatorhsips wherever and whenever they arise and establish democracy with protection of indivudual rights whenever and wherever possible

6.Close with and engage those societies and non state actors who refuse to negotiate or compromise with us and those who see the values of freedom and democracy as anathema to thier own beliefs and utterly destroy them without mercy.......

[cut]

I don't think anyone in europe thinks having a muslim minority in their country will protect them from attack. That is a rediculous american presumption.

Everyone realises they are vulnerable to attack you have nothing to teach us. The attack against Spain was not a sign of unreadiness, the spannish have had terrorism for 50 years, they have foiled attacks recently. This type of attack would have been just as impossible to stop in the US, especially since the US picked up no chatter as well as the fact that amtrak is particularly vulnerable, no to mention the fact that it has no money to spent on security.

[M1A2U2]

The fact is they wouldn't have been attacked by al qaida if Aznar's government hadn't taken such a major role in going to war, especially when many of them were against it. Now they have to fear terrorism from two factions. They have every right to be pissed off.

As for blaming the US, it's a bit unfair, but it was the US that triggered the threat of terrorism of al-quaida somehow and they did put a lot of pressure on european states to join the coalition, that wouldn't have wanted to take this risk otherwise. I'm willing to bet that supporting the US in their war against terrorism has cost Anznar his job.


I think this statement is disgusting. You are trying to understand the reasons for their terrorism? you are whats wrong with the world today. Your saying that countries like spain and the US should stand up for what they believe in because they might cause terrorism? if sick horrible people like yourself were running the world hitler and saddam would still be in power. Why dont you try to justify the holocaust now. "the fact is that if the jews hadnt killed jesus the holocaust wouldnt have happened." that is bassically what ur saying. Why dont you make that arguement to the famlies of the peple who died in spain. May God save your soul and help you to realize there is no justification for evil in this world.

[M1A2U2]

"lets not take a stance, the terrorists might bomb us if we do"

-cut

[cut]

The fact is they wouldn't have been attacked by al qaida if Aznar's government hadn't taken such a major role in going to war, especially when many of them were against it. Now they have to fear terrorism from two factions. They have every right to be pissed off.

As for blaming the US, it's a bit unfair, but it was the US that triggered the threat of terrorism of al-quaida somehow and they did put a lot of pressure on european states to join the coalition, that wouldn't have wanted to take this risk otherwise. I'm willing to bet that supporting the US in their war against terrorism has cost Anznar his job.


I think this statement is disgusting. You are trying to understand the reasons for their terrorism? you are whats wrong with the world today. Your saying that countries like spain and the US should stand up for what they believe in because they might cause terrorism? if sick horrible people like yourself were running the world hitler and saddam would still be in power. Why dont you try to justify the holocaust now. "the fact is that if the jews hadnt killed jesus the holocaust wouldnt have happened." that is bassically what ur saying. Why dont you make that arguement to the famlies of the peple who died in spain. May God save your soul and help you to realize there is no justification for evil in this world.

are you sure you read it properly? do you know what democracy means? I don't recall making posting anything about the holocaust and for that matter did not justify any kind of terrorism. Many of the families of the people who died in spain would agree with me, I was defending them.
And when THE F*CK DID I EVER JUSTIFY EVIL?


I have re-read what I wrote and you must be some illeterate dumb****! The only thing I can possibly imagine you could have skim read to piss you off, was "They have every right to be pissed off" which was referring to the people of spain who now have both ETA and AQ on their hands. But if you could read you'd know that.

[cut]

"lets not take a stance, the terrorists might bomb us if we do"

-cut

sure! put words into my mouth! did I ever type that? no! so why the **** do you put it in quotation marks?

I was explaining why the families of the victims are blaming Aznar (AS WELL AS THE TERRORISTS) and that is because this was the AMERICAN WAR ON TERROR, that's why it's the US & the COALITION and not the ALLIES. But more importantly they could take a stance in the war on terror, supporting the US and yet not got to war in IRAQ, which was not seen as part of the war on terror.

Not only that I was also reffering to the war in Iraq not the war on terrorism in general because that is why AQ targeted spain. This was NOT part of the war against terrorism in the eyes of all but the US, but we went through with it to get rid of Saddam, and that is why I supported it. But this high profile support meant that Spain was singled out. France and Germany among others supported the WAR ON TERROR whole heartedly and yet were against the war in Iraq.


this is why:

Aznar takes a lead role in the war in IRAQ
http://www.nrc.nl/images/trio2.jpg

[One?]

but don't go to war with Syria and those other countries


Maybe this is where these monsters are comming from ? These governments fund these groups by proxy , claim no responsibily but enjoy the bloodshed they create. Just how many Islamic terrorist camps enjoy shelter from arab countries ??

Syria and Egypt will put you in jail if they suspect you are a member of an extremist muslim group such as the "Muslim Brotherhood" ( Ayman Al Zawahri's egyptian group)

[Uncle Chô]

Your forgetting about the headscaf issue. France is in worst situation of Europe. They will soon pay the price for letting hordes of muslims in the gates.
Go back to the Library and read some books. "Hordes of muslims" were part of the former French colonies (Algeria / Morroco / Tunisia / Senegal) and in the mid-60s the industry urgently needed extra manpower. At that times, no one spoke from Ben Laden and Muslim extremism.

You are giving lessons about immigration ?How many people from Mexico and various South-American countries in the US ? How many Pakistanese in the UK ? Turkish people in Germany ? Moroccan in Spain ?

There are about 7 millions of Muslims in France for a total population of +/- 62 millions inhabitants. 99 % of them are peacefull people.

This is also the second country in the world for the Jewish diaspora.

Do you think it is easy to deal with these 2 figures ?

The Palestinian conflict is the key. Any image broadcasted from the ME by Al Jazeera is taken "as is" by the Muslims viewers. And some of the young people, mostly with a low education (you could blame 30 years of French laxism for that) are easy to manipulate...

Up until the mid-80, Islam fascism was non-existant to Westerners and nobody care because the Cold War and easy money from various oil and arms contracts made some countries "good friends" (ie Saudia Arabia and Pakistan).

It is not Europe's fault. It is not America's fault. Every one is guilty for multiple reasons.

Also some (most) of you on this Forum think the military response is the only answer. It is not because you have a fleet of CVNs that you will prevent terror attacks. HUMINT is the weapon of choice (it has been forgoten before 9/11) and police investigations are as much efficient. Many terror attacks have been prevented by police actions in France. You do not read that kind of info in foreign newspapers.

Do not try to oppose us. We have different perceptions because we have different history, methods are different but when you face terror the goals are the same.

And just to make things clear : if I did not support OIF (but strongly supported strikes in Afghanistan), I am not a leftist ;) . But I did not support Chirac's and De Villepin's stupid and arrogant attitude neither("We" France we are the leader of the world resistance to the American domination...) :cantbeli:

I hate arrogance. From both sides.

[martinexsquaddie]

obd speaks sense
bin laden and his little pals need to be taken out.
But it really does not take a great deal of planning and money to cause a terror attack. I reckon most of the members of this forum who have had any basic dems training could do something like the spanish attack (i'm not saying soldiers are like terrorists or anything before someone starts :( ) especially if you not to bothered about getting away or living afterwards.
Saying AQ is evil and we need them dead now is fine.
unfortunatly there unlikely to set up secret training camps that can be bombed by the USAF again.
not everybody with a beard who thinks the USA is the great satan is planning on strapping on a semtex overcoat.
There are a lot of people out there who have legitmate issue's with the west and the US.
Backing of middle east tyrants the israel/pal situation.
I'm not saying AQ have the answers but thats the sea there swimming in you need to understand your enemy before you can beat him. you can't use ac 130s in europe or the USA to hose down aq terrorists because they won't any diffirent from everybody else if anything probably slightly better dressed.

[fdt]

Islamic terrorism is a threat for all societies in the World. They fight not only a Western Christian societies, but also other non "sharia" muslim societies. Islamist terrorist network is a group (linked groups) of people whose aims are purely political. They spread and then use the reliogious fanatism to get into power, political power. They are like soviet commies in 1917-18. First destabilize, then eliminate legal governments, then take over the rule in the muslim states and then to throw the Great satan on it's knees with use of oil... (commies would rather use their massive army). As simple as it is...

This is serious. These are no "freedom fighters", not the "army of the opressed islam nation"... these are cold blooded murderous politicians who aim at taking over Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Q8, Emirates (all the Western "pet-dogs").

If we will let them succed, ther we will have a real "Clash of cultures" a real war. First front is to make the govts of arabic States to fight those assho*les seriously. Some already do it some rather choose the half measures. This must change... all or nothing. The real trick is that not only the arabic (muslim) countries are the source of terrorists funding and their harbor... Look at Your own backyard... millions of muslims in UK, Germany, France, Spain, Italy... Not all of them are backing terrorists. Many of those immigrants have succeded in Western countries and they are quite happy with their condition, but in all of those countries there are cells of "islamic disease". The cells are the footholds of the islamic terrorism in Western World. You can destroy the terror harboring and supporting govts in islam world, but what U gonna do about those millions who live next to Your door? Can You invigilate them all? Burn the terrorists camps in Afghanistan they will find a harbor in Europe, USA, Russia, Africa...

One day we will have to face that problem. Problem of mullahs who proteced by religious freedoms in the West will call openly in Paris, London, Madrid... to support the holy warriors and to destroy the unholy western world. They are protected by our own laws, by our own freedoms that they don't understand, they don't respect but they certainly can use them... against us. Freedom for the enemies of freedom... Most of them don't assimilate, they remain in their own impregnable ghettoes (culture, language, religion, habits) who are the recruitment centers and funding resources...

Noone is safe. More muslim immigrants You have in Your country - the harder task is to control the islamic terror cells.

To make myself clear... I don't call for the purges. The question is rather what can and should be done in this front... home front which emerged in Madrid with dramatic power.

[martinexsquaddie]

too true Saudi Arabia has encouraged an extreme form of islam and actively backed would be rebels to go to afganistan. back anti america and anti israeli actions.
But ask for political freedoms and justice and off to jail you go and welcome to Mr hot poker :(
Arab states are nasty one party states that have failed there people time and time again. they have used the israeli situation to hide there own failures. why do you think the palenstians have been locked up in refugee camps?
and why do so many muslims want to live in europe Arab run countries suck unless your a prince that is :(

[Collosus]

Hey ring piece,the 9/11 Hijackers were living in the USA so quit this Anti European ****e once and for all,I'm sick to the back teeth of people like you who know fok all about what Europe has endured through terrorism since the 60's........................TAKE A FOKIN HISTORY LESSON!!

Terrorism is relatively new on USA home soil,we in the UK have been living under it since the 1970's


Stupid bloody clown!

1.I Am f european, moreover i ve been living in London for 7 years and one would have to be blind not to see whats is going on here!
2 Thanks for the warm welcome Moderator!
3 Ever heard of Finsbury Park mosque in London?

[fdt]

The Palestinian conflict is the key. Any image broadcasted from the ME by Al Jazeera is taken "as is" by the Muslims viewers. And some of the young people, mostly with a low education (you could blame 30 years of French laxism for that) are easy to manipulate...
In my personal perception Palestinian conflict could be (and is) a trigger and cause of ... palestinian terrorism. Hijacking of the planes, Munich attack 1972 they were directly rooted in Palestinians/Israel conflict.

For the guys like Osama or Al'Zarkawi, the palestinian conflict is a fuel. They don't give a sh*it about Palestinians and their fate... their goals is smth different. POWER over the muslim states (more oil = better target). Palsetinian cause is just a good propaganda tool to gather the support amongst the muslim "gun meat" in the muslim world. It's a tool to influence a masses of muslim in the World who are being convinced that the Great Satan feed with the blood of innocent muslims and therefore it must be defeated at all cost (suicide bombers). Many may not know, but it's the same propaganda tool as used by nazis or soviet commies. Goebbels was calling to defend innocent aryans from "world jewish conspiracy" , commies were calling to defend "opressed working class" of the imperialistic western states... (their goals were obviously different than declared)

For muslims it's a Great Satan propaganda now, but for some US and European "acitvists" it is a "peace, war mongering and new US imperialism" that is smth that they are buying :cantbeli: . This is called an ideology propaganda, ideological frame for... completely different poltical goals.

PS: Whether someone wants it or not the US and UE sit in the same sh*ithole. Terror cell in London may organize the carnage in any EU country... because they can travel all over EU freely... they can also come to US... because as a UK citizens they may enter "land of free" with no visa and "fingerprints control"... Nobody is safe separately, nobody can be. If someone thinks that sitting quiet and bashing the "war with terror" - may prevent the terrorists from attacking their country is naive. If they will consider that attacking Belgium, France or germany may bring them political benefits, they will not hesitate for a moment.... one way or another, Belgium, France or Germany are also the part of the Great satan plot to wipe out all muslims.

[Luxembourger]

al qaeda terrorism is going to threat every western country whether it supported OIF or not . They target everything that has to do with our western culture.

Whether some european nations joned the OIf coallition or not , it doesn matter for those terrrorists every western nation is on their list .

They hate us far before OIF . it makes no sense to justtify those attacks because of Aznars support for the US.

[rafaelcb]

Hi All,

It seems that some group linked to (or inspired by) Al-Quaeda is responsible for the bombings in Madrid. I would have never thought we were 'in the target'. Anyway I have just come from voting and the bombs have not changed my vote. I also think that my government did the right thing supporting the american 'War on Terror'. The people who died here a few days ago were very close, but I felt the same pain and horrror when NY was attacked.

This war is much more simple than most people think. It is a battle of civilisation vs. barbarism. If we don't fight NOW our grandsons will live in a second middle-age.

[cut]

al qaeda terrorism is going to threat every western country whether it supported OIF or not . They target everything that has to do with our western culture.

Even if that were true do you think Spain was always such a priority for them. The reason why spaniards blame Aznar is not because they like terrorism as some guys on here want to believe, but becase they were against the war in Iraq, not because they were scared of terrorism but because they didn't believe it was linked to 9/11 and with the west supposed to be setting the example attacking another country without them moving first blah blah blah, and all that. al qaeda are predominently anti-american not anti-west IMO even if they were involved in the war on terrorism.




Whether some european nations joned the OIf coallition or not , it doesn matter for those terrrorists every western nation is on their list .
Do you really think you guys in luxembourg on the list?



They hate us far before OIF . it makes no sense to justtify those attacks because of Aznars support for the US.

No-one is trying to justify the attacks, that would be rediculous.

[fdt]

Do you really think you guys in luxembourg on the list?
Do You really think that if AQ would think that by attacking the Luxembourg located target (for example some EU institution) they would achieve some political gain (such as spreading the fear to force some EU political decisions), they would resign simply because of fact that Lux govt was opposing the Iraq invasion?

Targets are selected carefully with consideration of the eventual political outcome. This time it was Spain, because of elections... Political calculation is quite clear here... spread the fear, fuel the spanish pacifistic opinions (that were high before) and eventually to change the spanish govt what could cause one AT coalition member to withdraw... What a promising perspective! The hit was directed against the "weak point", a country where they could count on existing pacifistic sentiments to prevail after such a blow...

[Backis]

One thing puzzles me in this attack.............compared to 90% of the previous attacks that were "related" to AQ.........



..........they were not Suicide bombs

Bali wasn't a suicide attack was it?

[Kellhound]

The videotape spoke in arabic with moroccan accent.
Authenticity is still being investigated.

Without more evidence, i'm considering more the same group which bombed the "Casa de España" in Casablanca, but those were suicide bombers even when there was no need for autoinmolation.

In Pamplona a cop killed a baker (father of 2 sons arrested by collaboration with ETA) after he refused let his wife put a poster against terrorism in his shop and having a violent argument.

Still no clear clue as to who was responsible, and in the middle of the elections, leftist claim it was Al-Qaeda, right wing it was ETA, but nobody says anything clear. Only plunder in the pain caused by 200 and more than a thousand injured.

Man, i hate politicians.
http://www.abc.es/abc/laterales/otro_contenido/iconos_para_destacados_home_abajo/LazoNegro1.gif

[Miles Teg]

Man, i hate politicians.

No less the best words of the topic.

Sincerely

[Luxembourger]

al qaeda are predominently anti-american not anti-west IMO even if they were involved in the war on terrorism.


?????? I don t get your post.

[Luxembourger]

Do you really think you guys in luxembourg on the list?


why not ? if you kill 300 lux citizens on a concert . party or shopping mall , al qaeda has then the same effect than in it s previous attacks.

And do you think that only because spain supported OIf they were the first on AL Qaeda s list? What about all the nations invloved in Operation enduring freedom ??
And why should Al qaeda target spain because of the OIF reason if there are no terrorists in Iraq as some people pretend ?

My point is just that everyone that shares western values is on their list now or later. Al qaeda is not going to leave out any of their foes Europe USA Russia and other nations .

[Luxembourger]

AL Qaeda aims are to provoke a clash of a civilzaiton too and they want us to get trapped .

They want to provoke also a fight among europeans like those who are opposing military action against AL Qaeda and those who want to use force against AL Qaeda.


They just want to divide us and they enjoy watching us blaming ourselves for the roots of terrorism ,,something that we should not do .

we should not weaken ourselves and blaming our governments,,,we should always remain cirtical of course .

[fdt]

AL Qaeda aims are to provoke a clash of a civilzaiton too and they want us to get trapped .

They want to provoke also a fight among europeans like those who are opposing military action against AL Qaeda and those who want to use force against AL Qaeda.


They just want to divide us and they enjoy watching us blaming ourselves for the roots of terrorism ,,something that we should not do .

we should not weaken ourselves and blaming our governments,,,we should always remain cirtical of course .Add one more thing. The message of AQ is:

F... off the Moddle East, as we islamists wll be taking it over. Country by country, government by government will be falling in our hands as we will rise the wave of peoples revolution. You stay out, as we will be subduing all Middle East societies to the "holy laws of sharia". Faithful don't need democracy, because it's a western poison, all they need is a holy koran and we will give it to them. In the name of God we will take over all the region's natural resources turning them into a Allah sword that will punish the infidels.

[usa320]

why would AQ target spain then? Just for the hell of it?

Until everyone in Spain is speaking Arabic and bowing towards Mecca, in Al Queda's mind they are a TARGET. That is what they want. Everyone to be like them.

You know what, i rather see American Service men lose their lives fighting these SCUM than see American Business men, Children, Firefighters and doctors lose their lives getting attacked by these sorry excuses for dog ****.

AND THEY ARE SCUM. F*** THAT **** ABOUT ONE MANS TERRORIST IS ANOTHER MANS FREEDOM FIGHTER. HOW CAN SOMEONE WHO ADAMANDTLY OPPOSES THE BELIEFS OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY BE A FREEDOM FIGHTER? THEY ARE TERRRORISTS> NOTHING ELSE.

The lefties need to stop blamming Lax security, the war against terrorism, the Bush Administration, America, the jews, the Christians, the RUssians...stop blamming everyone but the people the blamed needs to be layed on- the bombers themselves. Did the Bush ADministration force them to don that suicide vest and walk into that cafe or bus? No. They made that decision- they are the only ones who can be blamed- them and those that coordinate the attacks.

[martinexsquaddie]

Aq are the Baader meinhoff of islamicists bored rich kids in love with the idea of violent death bury them in pig fat.

[Elmo]

They want to provoke also a fight among europeans like those who are opposing military action against AL Qaeda and those who want to use force against AL Qaeda.



Man, I don't know what you are talking about. I've been following this thread and it doesn't seem to occur to you that military action against Al-Qaeda is not simple. You just can't invade any country out of thin air.

What is Al Qaeda exactly? Who to attack?
Why don't you spearhead a joint free world attack into...well, you probably know where.

[Elmo]

AND THEY ARE SCUM. F*** THAT **** ABOUT ONE MANS TERRORIST IS ANOTHER MANS FREEDOM FIGHTER. HOW CAN SOMEONE WHO ADAMANDTLY OPPOSES THE BELIEFS OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY BE A FREEDOM FIGHTER? THEY ARE TERRRORISTS> NOTHING ELSE.



Please. Western freedom and democracy are not universally valued and definately not the end of history by being the only right way to govern.

Besides, those words are used all the time to justify all kinds of things. Democracy is a real magic word.

Those terrorists are scum, nonetheless.

[fdt]

why would AQ target spain then? Just for the hell of it?

Until everyone in Spain is speaking Arabic and bowing towards Mecca, in Al Queda's mind they are a TARGET. That is what they want. Everyone to be like them.

You know what, i rather see American Service men lose their lives fighting these SCUM than see American Business men, Children, Firefighters and doctors lose their lives getting attacked by these sorry excuses for dog ****.

AND THEY ARE SCUM. F*** THAT **** ABOUT ONE MANS TERRORIST IS ANOTHER MANS FREEDOM FIGHTER. HOW CAN SOMEONE WHO ADAMANDTLY OPPOSES THE BELIEFS OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY BE A FREEDOM FIGHTER? THEY ARE TERRRORISTS> NOTHING ELSE.

The lefties need to stop blamming Lax security, the war against terrorism, the Bush Administration, America, the jews, the Christians, the RUssians...stop blamming everyone but the people the blamed needs to be layed on- the bombers themselves. Did the Bush ADministration force them to don that suicide vest and walk into that cafe or bus? No. They made that decision- they are the only ones who can be blamed- them and those that coordinate the attacks. Someone asked why Spain? There is the answer... http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2004/03/14/image606159x.jpg That's precisely what AQ ass*oles wanted to see and achieve in election day...

[cut]

AL Qaeda aims are to provoke a clash of a civilzaiton too and they want us to get trapped .

I agree what do you think OIF did for this? Or naming the axis of evil? I think we should be killing terrorists but working with the arab countries. Iraq though was a different case, it was always going to happen it's just the timing and the lack of incriminating reasons for it not to go ahead because it played into the hands of the terrorists.


They want to provoke also a fight among europeans like those who are opposing military action against AL Qaeda and those who want to use force against AL Qaeda.

I doubt they are that premeditating, it is something that happened there's is no way a islamic terrorist group can forsee what the impact on US-Europe relations better than academics in the west. They are not superhuman.



They just want to divide us and they enjoy watching us blaming ourselves for the roots of terrorism ,,something that we should not do .
they set out to put the West against the islamic world and vice versa, but I honestly don't think they could know enough to play European against each other or against he US.



we should not weaken ourselves and blaming our governments,,,we should always remain cirtical of course .

Spaniards are angry with their government not because of the terrorists but because it acted against their wishes, the terrorist acts only compounded a feeling that was already their.

[cut]

The lefties need to stop blamming Lax security, the war against terrorism, the Bush Administration, America, the jews, the Christians, the RUssians...stop blamming everyone but the people the blamed needs to be layed on- the bombers themselves. Did the Bush ADministration force them to don that suicide vest and walk into that cafe or bus? No. They made that decision- they are the only ones who can be blamed- them and those that coordinate the attacks.

lol, three words pot, kettle and black.

listen to your own advice, stop blaming the left and concentrate on blaming the terrorists.

[fdt]

Aznar assesino... that's what some shouted on the streets of Madrid today... Aznar murderer. :cantbeli: Just have seen that on TV newsflash. No comments AQ has achieved it's goal... What will be the elections outcome ... well, I believe that not all Spaniards got carried out...

[cut]

The elections is tight apparently, and there's a high turnout (80%)

[Backis]

Add one more thing. The message of AQ is:

F... off the Moddle East, as we islamists wll be taking it over. Country by country, government by government will be falling in our hands as we will rise the wave of peoples revolution. You stay out, as we will be subduing all Middle East societies to the "holy laws of sharia". Faithful don't need democracy, because it's a western poison, all they need is a holy koran and we will give it to them. In the name of God we will take over all the region's natural resources turning them into a Allah sword that will punish the infidels.

mmh...

That sounds a lot more like "plain jane" Wahabbism... (as there is such a thing, HA!)

OBL is at his heart a full-blown apocalyptic True Believer, believing that since God is on Islams side, a war between Islam and the West will be won by Islam. They are therefore trying to conflagrate this situation into WW3 (or WW4 if you prefer).

AQ is his sect and means to meet his ends.

[fdt]

Add one more thing. The message of AQ is:

F... off the Moddle East, as we islamists wll be taking it over. Country by country, government by government will be falling in our hands as we will rise the wave of peoples revolution. You stay out, as we will be subduing all Middle East societies to the "holy laws of sharia". Faithful don't need democracy, because it's a western poison, all they need is a holy koran and we will give it to them. In the name of God we will take over all the region's natural resources turning them into a Allah sword that will punish the infidels.

mmh...

That sounds a lot more like "plain jane" Wahabbism... (as there is such a thing, HA!)

OBL is at his heart a full-blown apocalyptic True Believer, believing that since God is on Islams side, a war between Islam and the West will be won by Islam. They are therefore trying to conflagrate this situation into WW3 (or WW4 if you prefer).

AQ is his sect and means to meet his ends. Well, IMHO OBL is not just a lunatic and moron... he and his gang thy are cold blooded murderous politicians. They never thought of conquering all the world and turning it into "islami paradise"... they are not that stupid. Their political goals are for now a bit more moderate... they want to conquer only a muslim world, but they know that the West will not be watching it patiently... (because of You know what...). How do You think why has Quaddafi surrendered his tough politisc? because of Iraq and Saddam... or because of those mentioned and the islamic opposition within Libya... Read lates analyses on this Quaddafi issue - they are very interesting...

[M1A2U2]

Cut,
I still think that aznar should be able to support the US when he feels its morally correct without having to worry about getting bombed

[stuntman]

Aznar assesino... that's what some shouted on the streets of Madrid today... Aznar murderer. :cantbeli: Just have seen that on TV newsflash. No comments AQ has achieved it's goal... What will be the elections outcome ... well, I believe that not all Spaniards got carried out...
Well the socialist look like they will win! And guess who else win? THE TERRORIST!
I hope I am so wrong by this!

thoughts...

[Kilgor]

Yeah... thats the plan.

cause voter backlash and get softer governments voted in.

[cut]

Cut,
I still think that aznar should be able to support the US when he feels its morally correct without having to worry about getting bombed

I partly agree, but it is his duty to do as the spannish public want, he's not a dictator, and is held responsible for his actions, so now the socialists have won the election, now what would you have prefered?

[Backis]

Well, IMHO OBL is not just a lunatic and moron... he and his gang thy are cold blooded murderous politicians.

I never called him a moron. He is most definately a lunatic however... (by our standards).



They never thought of conquering all the world and turning it into "islami paradise"... they are not that stupid. Their political goals are for now a bit more moderate... they want to conquer only a muslim world, but they know that the West will not be watching it patiently... (because of You know what...).

Which is it? Never intended or not any more?

Are you present at top level AQ meetings were they set policy or something? I mean since you know what their intentions are and all...

OBL has clearly stated his intentions before, and that is what I go by. I see nothing changed in activities that can't be explained by diminished capabilities. There is no reason to assume he has had a change in belief or strategy.



How do You think why has Quaddafi surrendered his tough politisc? because of Iraq and Saddam... or because of those mentioned and the islamic opposition within Libya... Read lates analyses on this Quaddafi issue - they are very interesting...

Hah.. Kadaffii has tried to make peace with the west for more than a decade... Could Kadaffi see OIF in a crystal ball years before it happened perhaps? :roll:

Its amazing how many "analysts" are forgetting that, since they wan't to give Bush credit for the sun rising every morning...