'Russia Has Left The Western Orbit'

[BlackRain]

'Russia Has Left The Western Orbit'

Missile deals with the 'axis of evil' are just the latest sign that Moscow is sick of kowtowing to the US and Europe, writes Tom Parfitt

Thursday April 27, 2006


Moscow could be on the verge of clinching an arms deal with Syria or Iran that would send the US and Israel into pop-eyed rage.

A few days ago a Russian arms manufacturer let slip at an arms fair in Kuala Lumpur that his state-run weapons design bureau was close to sealing a foreign sale of Iskander-E missiles. The destination of the hardware was secret, he said, but the most obvious market is clear: the Middle East.

Last year, Israel was furious when it emerged that Moscow was planning to sell the Iskander to Damascus. The Iskander is like the Scuds that Iraq used during the Gulf war but many times more accurate and better equipped to avoid defensive weapons such as the Patriot missile. Syria - part of George Bush's "axis of evil" - would love to be able to trundle some of these short-range ballistic missiles (range: 180 miles) down to its southern border to point at Israel in the event of a conflict.


No doubt the Iranian regime of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is also itching to get its hands on some of these weapons - whose sale is not restricted by any treaty. Earlier this month Iran tested an underwater missile that looked suspiciously like a Russian Shkval.

President Vladimir Putin, under pressure from the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, was forced to step in and reverse the Syrian missile deal.

These days, one might surmise, he would not give a fig.

Everything about Russia's stance in the international arena suggests a new confidence that radiates "don't bully me". I is still possible the Iskanders will go to a less threatening client than the Middle Eastern bad boys - China, say, or India or Algeria. But the point is, they will go to whomever Moscow wants.

Russia has shown in recent months that western condemnation will not shake its resolve to play on the world stage as it likes.

Welcoming a Hamas delegation to Moscow last month - described by a minister in Jerusalem as "stabbing Israel in the back" - was one example. A second was the decision a few weeks later to give financial aid to the

Palestinian Authority, against the wishes of the US and the EU.

In another robust move, the Russians have refused to back down on a recent $700m (£380m) deal to sell 29 Tor M1 mobile surface-to-air missile defence systems to Iran despite pressure from Washington.

"We hope and we trust that that deal will not go forward because this is not the time for business as usual with the Iranian government," grumbled the US undersecretary of state Nicholas Burns last week, as the UN geared up for its crucial report tomorrow on Iran's nuclear enrichment programme. But the complaint fell on deaf ears at the Kremlin.

While Russia's arms industry is growing fast, its new brassiness relies mostly on the billions of dollars it is raking in from hydrocarbon exports, on the back of high oil prices.

As an emerging energy superpower, Moscow is increasingly seeking to play off potential buyers of its oil and gas.

Last week Alexei Miller, the head of the Russian state gas monopoly, Gazprom, warned that attempts to limit his company's expansion in Europe would "not lead to good results". The company caused alarm at the British gas supplier Centrica when it emerged that the Russian firm saw it as a potential takeover target - Gazprom had turned off the taps to its neighbour Ukraine in January, in a politically charged dispute. Miller also said: "It should not be forgotten we are actively seeking new markets, such as North America and China."

President Vladimir Putin weighed in on the theme yesterday. "Despite the great demand for energy resources, any excuses are being used to limit us in the north, in the south, in the west," he said.

"We must look for markets, fit into the processes of global development. I have in mind the countries of the Asia-Pacific region, which are developing at great speed and need to cooperate with us."

Dmitry Trenin, an analyst at the Moscow Carnegie Centre, says Russia - fed up with pandering to the US and Europe - is undergoing a fundamental shift in foreign relations. Now it will focus on ties with countries, such as Brazil, India and China, that it sees as being on a similar path of development to itself.
"Russia has left the western orbit," Mr Trenin said. "It was circling it distantly for about a decade, Pluto-like. But now it's gone."



http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,,1762953,00.html

Mugabe Buys 10 Fighter Jets From Russia

Thursday, April 27 2006 @ 12:05 AM BST


President Robert Mugabe has ploughed an estimated US$500m into the purchase of 10 new fighter jets and military vehicles from Russia, Zimdaily can reveal. The government's acquisition of the military hardware has been blasted by the opposition MDC which charges that the purchase of military equipment had by-passed the State Procurement Board. The MDC has already queried the defence budget - the biggest in the current financial year - which it says is unjustifiable for a country that is not at war.

Due to sanctions imposed on President Robert Mugabe's regime, Zimbabwe's current fleet of European-made fighter jets has been crippled by a critical shortage of spares which has forced the government to look to the Far East.

Although the government has refused to disclose the type of aircraft being bought in the secret deal covered by the 1989 legal provision which excludes the acquisition of key military equipment from going through a tender board or to be advertised, sources tell Zimdaily that the aircraft include five Il-96s, including three -400T freighters and two -400M passenger aircraft.

Zimdaily heard that central bank chief Gideon Gono and transport minister Christopher Mushohwe cobbled the deal. Zimdaily understands that the two technocrats signed an initial agreement with their Russian counterparts in Moscow in April. Zimdaily was told that deliveries will start in 2008 from the Voronezh VASO plant via lessor Ilyushin-Finance. The firm contract is to be signed by July. Apart from the 10 aircraft, Zimbabwe has also put an order for 100 military vehicles.

It is not clear where the funding for the new aircraft is coming from as in the current budget, announced by government in November last year, the army was allocated $6 trillion with 69 percent expected to be chewed by salaries and the rest going to operations. MDC Shadow Defence minister Giles Mutsekwa queried the manner in which the purchase of military equipment had by-passed the State Procurement Board, a move he said might result in the army buying equipment which may be expensive, but having a short life span.

However Defence ministry permanent secretary Trust Maphosa told Zimdaily that the decision to buy the military hardware from Russia was a political decision after the force had encountered problems in procuring spare parts for equipment bought in Western Europe as a result of European Union sanctions imposed against President Mugabe's regime.

Zimbabwe has one of the most formidable defence forces in Africa, whose highlight after the country’s independence include assisting the Mozambican government subdue the former rebel Renamo in the 1980s and repelling invasion forces who were threatening to overrun the DRC capital, Kinshasa in 1998.
The Air Force of Zimbabwe has two bases in Manyame (near Harare) and Thornhill (Gweru) with personnel estimated at about 5 000. Currently, the Air Force has the Chengdu F-7 fighter jet, British-made Hawker Hunters and recently demonstrated newly-acquired Russian-made MiG-23 jets and Mi-35 helicopter gunships, armed for attacking targets on the ground, especially with automatic gunfire, but often also with rockets and/or missiles.


http://zimdaily.com/news2/article.php/20060426120227666

[ed316]

Gots to make that cheddar. Nothing wrong with selling weapons.

[XxDualityxX]

I have thought russia was out of the west for years.

[Kilgor]

'Russia Has Left The Western Orbit'

Missile deals with the 'axis of evil' are just the latest sign that Moscow is sick of kowtowing to the US and Europe, writes Tom Parfitt

Thursday April 27, 2006


Moscow could be on the verge of clinching an arms deal with Syria or Iran that would send the US and Israel into pop-eyed rage.



For decades the US and Israel have watch the USSR arm the middle east, and this is nothing new. And for decades the Israeli's have laid waste to arab armies using home grown and western hardware.

Its business as usual.




http://zimdaily.com/news2/article.php/20060426120227666[/QUOTE]

[Marmot1]

I have thought russia was out of the west for years.

They did not left western orbit since they never reached it... nothing spectacular here...

[Flagg]

Let me first start by saying I would certainly prefer to see nations like Syria and Iran NOT have access to advanced weaponry.

But try and look at things from the Russian perspective for a moment.

In terms of international military weapon system/equipment sales, there are practically no rules...it's a very cut-throat business both between corporations and nations.

Have a look at the US aggressivelt selling kit to BOTH Pakistan and India.....They want to NUKE each other for F's sake....but their is political and financial capital to be gained by doing so.

The US defense industry has made great strides in chipping away at some of Russia's traditional customers, particularly in Eastern Europe with the expansion of NATO, and they're making headway in India.

I would think it's safe to say Russian equipment, all things being equal, would not be nearly as welcome as US equipment due to political pressure.

"Hey, we just let you join NATO, so that means you'll be buying your death rays exclusively from us". It's no different than the McDonald's corporation requiring franchisees to to buy their Big Macs from Ronald McDonald

Political leverage plays a considerable role in defense equipment sales...anyone who believes weapons are procured ONLY based on performance isn't just naive, but retarded.

Russia has the opportunity to make some serious money selling their fancy kit(while ALL of their kit may not be the best, some of it certainly must be). If the US wants Russia to stop selling kit to states like Iran, I'm sure there is a price tag(not necessarily measured in dollars) that is associated with it.

It's not personal, it's business baby! ;)

[Roaming East]

Why sell crap to Syria? dont they have like the worlds worse record for paying for weapons received? Besides, America doesnt need to lecture anybody on selling weapons since we arm the planet faster and harder than anyone else

[Ea$y-8]

Russia was never really part of the west to begin with. They are more arab freindly and this is why Soviet weapons always find their way into Middle Eastern militaries. In Egypt they had 3,000 soviet advisors at one time. Putin wants to bring back the USSR and looks like he just might be starting.

[praetorian6]

President Robert Mugabe has ploughed an estimated US$500m into the purchase of 10 new fighter jets and military vehicles...

Zimbabwe has one of the most formidable defence forces in Africa...

Well at least they aren't doing anything crazy with it, like feeding people and what not.

[Hollis]

is the cold war really over?

[Flagg]

Russia was never really part of the west to begin with. They are more arab freindly

and this is why Soviet weapons always find their way into Middle Eastern militaries. In Egypt they had 3,000 soviet advisors at one time. Putin wants to bring back the USSR and looks like he just might be starting.

Than who?

The US?

Who do you think has armed Egypt since the Egyptians booted the Soviets?

Who's armed the Saudis since forever?

Who's armed the UAE?

Who's armed Kuwait?

Who's armed Jordan?

Your analysis is complete poop.

If you ALWAYS take such a definitive stance on things you "know" expect to get pushback.

Pull your head in and go read something other than a comic book

[stuntman]

I guess Chechnya is fair game!

[Ea$y-8]

Most stuff I have read about the equipment of arab armies, they always have Soviet rather than US weapons. This is where my opinion comes from.

[TR1]

I guess Chechnya is fair game!
what the **** is that supposed to mean???

About the Iskanders, is Russia selling nuclear tipped ones? a conventionally armed Iskander sale gets my thumbs up, but a nuclear armed one can't lead to anything good.

[Ea$y-8]

what the **** is that supposed to mean???

It means they have pie.

[TR1]

no, it can't be!!! lies!!!

[GazB]

Mugabe Buys 10 Fighter Jets From Russia


Although the government has refused to disclose the type of aircraft being bought in the secret deal covered by the 1989 legal provision which excludes the acquisition of key military equipment from going through a tender board or to be advertised, sources tell Zimdaily that the aircraft include five Il-96s, including three -400T freighters and two -400M passenger aircraft.

So hang on... five of these 10 fighters are Il-96s? I think the author of this story doesn't know what an Il-96 is perhaps? An Il-96 is a modern looking commercial airliner type aircraft. There are military versions of it that include a command and control version and also a transport model, but there are certainly no armed versions. (It has been proposed as a tanker as well).

[stuntman]

no, it can't be!!! lies!!!

No lies, only truth!
Once Pie's are sold, Russian forces are finished!p-)

[Azide]

I guess Chechnya is fair game!

To whom are weapon systems going to be sold to, same people that are IED'ing the crap out of US in Iraq?

[stuntman]

To whom are weapon systems going to be sold to, same people that are IED'ing the crap out of US in Iraq?

Well considering the direction Russia is headed(Syria,Iran)with its better weapon systems, it is only a matter of time we (US/Coalition) will be engaged by these more advanced weapon systems like s-300 or even 400. And since some of our Euro/Russo pals here feel it is fair game, I figured Chechens to be fair game! It's all business like most see it here...:|
Right?

[TR1]

Well considering the direction Russia is headed(Syria,Iran)with its better weapon systems, it is only a matter of time we (US/Coalition) will be engaged by these more advanced weapon systems like s-300 or even 400. And since some of our Euro/Russo pals here feel it is fair game, I figured Chechens to be fair game! It's all business like most see it here...:|
Right?
the only diffirence being that the Russian weapon sales are to legitimate governments which pose no threat to the US...while the Chechen seperatists are a bunch of bandit rebels, many of whom are no diffirent from the insurgents in Iraq.

[stuntman]

the only diffirence being that the Russian weapon sales are to legitimate governments which pose no threat to the US...while the Chechen seperatists are a bunch of bandit rebels, many of whom are no diffirent from the insurgents in Iraq.

You are absolutly right, but either way, they (terrorist)are our enemies country or group. I don't care if they are ragtags from Chechnya , or Insurgents. Eventually those weapons systems will target US/Coalition forces and Russian equipment isn't exactly crap, so it worries me a bit..
For the record I was just showing my point, I would never advocate selling any type weapons to those animals the Russians are fighting. I was more trying to point out the inconvenience of selling such hardware..

[TR1]

You are absolutly right, but either way, they (terrorist)are our enemies country or group. I don't care if they are ragtags from Chechnya , or Insurgents. Eventually those weapons systems will target US/Coalition forces and Russian equipment isn't exactly crap, so it worries me a bit..
For the record I was just showing my point, I would never advocate selling any type weapons to those animals the Russians are fighting. I was more trying to point out the inconvenience of selling such hardware..
certainly I would not like to see any Russian weapons, such as small arms and explosives enter use in Iraq by the insurgents. But I do not think that sales such as Theater range missles (iskander) and advanced anti-aircraft systems (Tor and Favorit) will ever be utilized by terrorist/insurgent organizations anywhere; and in that, pose no direct threat to the US.

[Ea$y-8]

Soviet weapons (such as AKs) have be floating around the world since the stone age (end of WWII). They make their way into the hands over every freak in the galaxy because of it. Anti-Aircraft systems and long range missiles will never be a effective terrorist weapon because of the fact they are to high profile for their style of fighting.

[stuntman]

I'm not necessarily worried about current conflicts, but anticipating future conflicts with certain countries who the US has issue with. And some how conveniently they are acquiring advance Russian Anti Air assets? Just seems a little more world balance playing then just a simple arms deal..

[Ea$y-8]

Russia might be helping with the arming of Iran because they don't wanna see Iran being taken over by a US invasion. This is probably why they are doing it. The want Iran's oil and are preparing Iran so they can protect it.

[signatory]

Russia might be helping with the arming of Iran because they don't wanna see Iran being taken over by a US invasion. This is probably why they are doing it. The want Iran's oil and are preparing Iran so they can protect it.

If Russia really cared about Iran's defense capabilities they would not sell them weapons systems. They would donate them.

[GazB]

I'm not necessarily worried about current conflicts, but anticipating future conflicts with certain countries who the US has issue with.

You are worried that the US won't always be able to bully who it wants when it wants?
For that reason you don't see why non-western/non-nato should have any weapons or means of defence at all?
Are you volunteering the West to be the real world police, to cover the entire globe and manage everones defence... whether the west cares (ie Kosovo) or if it doesn't care (Rwanda, Sudan, Nepal, Chechnia etc etc etc) that it has to go in and fix every problem?

I am sure every country in the world would prefer to manage their own defence needs, and I doubt you'd want the responsibility of taking on the role anyway.
The risk that one day some third world country might actually be able to afford to defend itself from the US is a joke. The US spends 300 billion a year. The idea that some third world country could afford to buy an army navy and airforce that could compete with that is just silly.
Individual systems like Tor or S-300 look good on paper, but need to operate as a system. They need to be supported by an entire network of overlapping capabilities that include other SAM types of varying range, but also interceptors and fighters, and equally an attack ability so that you just don't sit there and take punnishment, but can actually strike back and make it too hard for the invader to fight. The Soviet Union achieved that, China probably could too, and India probably could as well, but no other country has the top echelon of nuclear weapons as that top level bargaining chip.
North Korea has rough country not suitable for land forces in many areas and lots of underground facilities plus the hint of nuclear weapons means you could probably add them to the list as a "Negotiate only Country" to but who else qualifies?

[stuntman]

GazB
I get your point! But my problem is not one of world domination or police action(as you noted), but instead the motives of Russia in regards to US interest. Don't over emphasize(spelling?) your personal conflict with the US's NWO order is evident in your speech. Although informative, the level of being lucid on your part is not. I am just questioning motive, not strike Theory.

[QRO?]

So hang on... five of these 10 fighters are Il-96s?I believe it's more likely that ALL are civilian transport aircraft and that the pseudonymous board user (named just "correspondent (http://zimdaily.com/news2/users.php?mode=profile&uid=178)") of zimdaily.com just doesn't have any idea what he's writing about.

There is also this (http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/04/25/206104/Russia+brokers+jet+exports.html) report about the deal from a knowledgeable source:

Zimbabwe aims to take 10-20 Il-96s and Tu-204s. Zimbabwe’s National Reserve Bank president Gedeon Gono and transport minister Christopher Mushohwe signed an initial agreement with their Russian counterparts in Moscow in April calling for delivery of five Il-96s, including three -400T freighters and two -400M passenger aircraft.

Deliveries will start in 2008 from the Voronezh VASO plant via lessor Ilyushin-Finance. The deal is valued at $500 million. The firm contract is to be signed by July.

[Greek soldier]

The Russ want to sell additional weapons to Greece. ANd we're the only NATO country to operate both the PATRIOT PAC-3 and the S-300 PMU...

[stuntman]

The Russ want to sell additional weapons to Greece. ANd we're the only NATO country to operate both the PATRIOT PAC-3 and the S-300 PMU...
NIce..
Talk about the best of both worlds.

[joshfox0]

while i don't like russia selling these weapons to these countrys that totally down to my point of view. countries have always sold weapons to countries they shouldn't have. While i may not like it i'll begrudginly accept it.
Just remember that the human race is crazy and self destructive thats why we're the funnyest race on the planet.

[XShipRider]

Why sell crap to Syria? dont they have like the worlds worse record for paying for weapons received? Besides, America doesnt need to lecture anybody on selling weapons since we arm the planet faster and harder than anyone else
It's not necessarily $$ or Euros Russia is after. Influence in the region
is bought and sold at these arms bizarres too.

As someone else mentioned, arms are a commodity. The free market determines
who buys what from whom.

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2000_09/armssupplysept00.asp

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Russia might be helping with the arming of Iran because they don't wanna see Iran being taken over by a US invasion. This is probably why they are doing it. The want Iran's oil and are preparing Iran so they can protect it.
I really don't think Russia needs Iran's oil :roll: well they certainly need it a lot less than the USA does.

[Bert]

Russia was in the western orbit? When?

I don't see these arms sales as any worse than some of 'our' sales. The Western countries have sold weapons and such to various dictators before. Russia doesn't need Iran more than any other ally - they're just doing this to say 'we do whatever we want, **** you.'

[EsoognomEhT]

Than who?

The US?

Who do you think has armed Egypt since the Egyptians booted the Soviets?

Who's armed the Saudis since forever?

Who's armed the UAE?

Who's armed Kuwait?

Who's armed Jordan?

Your analysis is complete poop.

If you ALWAYS take such a definitive stance on things you "know" expect to get pushback.

Pull your head in and go read something other than a comic book#


you forgot Iraq ;)

[triple5]

Why sell crap to Syria? dont they have like the worlds worse record for paying for weapons received? Besides, America doesnt need to lecture anybody on selling weapons since we arm the planet faster and harder than anyone else

i have to say you are a clever man, your parents did a great job with you.

[triple5]

I really don't think Russia needs Iran's oil :roll: well they certainly need it a lot less than the USA does.

no country besides Iran need the iranian oil, its theirs and doesnt belong to anyone else. the black gold its the reason why the situation in middle-east is unstable, every country wants a little bit of the cake. Kuwait, Saudi arabia and UAE got good conections with USA so they dont have to be invaded but you cant say the same thing about Iraq and Iran.

[annihilation]

Big deal really, everyone is selling to everyone and everyone is getting armed. It just keeps everyone on their toes.

[TR1]

The Russ want to sell additional weapons to Greece. ANd we're the only NATO country to operate both the PATRIOT PAC-3 and the S-300 PMU...

The same can be said for alot of Greece's inventory- mostly western weapons with some eastern tech as well. a good mix.

[Bert]

The same can be said for alot of Greece's inventory- mostly western weapons with some eastern tech as well. a good mix.
Finland has that funny mix too. I guess being a Western country and sharing such a large border with Ivan the Bear makes you pragmatic. ;)

[cepera]

I get your point! But my problem is not one of world domination or police action(as you noted), but instead the motives of Russia in regards to US interest. Don't over emphasize(spelling?) your personal conflict with the US's NWO order is evident in your speech. Although informative, the level of being lucid on your part is not. I am just questioning motive, not strike Theory.

Stuntman, look at it from a Russia's perspective. The US has been knocking off Russia's export buyers and deals from the list. Not only that but they've been starting political turnovers everywhere they go. They go to Georgia, sing a couple of songs there and make it 100% pro-US and 100% anti-Russian. They then go to Ukraine and do the same thing there and Im quite positive that more is to come... How do you think Russia feels about this? And now that Russia tries to maintain it's export market by dealing with customers that according to Bush fall under "axis of evil", they call it anti-western, anti-democratic and all the other crap.
The Russia's potantial Indian contract was knocked off and they bougtht F-16s..yet it doesnt stop US from selling to Pakistan, does it? Business is business.

[Ea$y-8]

I really don't think Russia needs Iran's oil :roll: well they certainly need it a lot less than the USA does.

The US gets its oil from Saudi Arabia not Iran.

[TR1]

Stuntman, look at it from a Russia's perspective. The US has been knocking off Russia's export buyers and deals from the list. Not only that but they've been starting political turnovers everywhere they go. They go to Georgia, sing a couple of songs there and make it 100% pro-US and 100% anti-Russian. They then go to Ukraine and do the same thing there and Im quite positive that more is to come... How do you think Russia feels about this? And now that Russia tries to maintain it's export market by dealing with customers that according to Bush fall under "axis of evil", they call it anti-western, anti-democratic and all the other crap.
The Russia's potantial Indian contract was knocked off and they bougtht F-16s..yet it doesnt stop US from selling to Pakistan, does it? Business is business.
I thought India only had thoughts to buy some F-16 to prevent Pakistan from getting them? the MRCA is still open, and I doubt an American fighter will be ordered for that.

[saigonsmuggler]

Actually the US gets most of its oil from its next door neighbor - Canada. USA only gets a small portion of oil from the Middle East.

But oil is an international commodity, so it doesn't really matter where you get it.

[cepera]

I thought India only had thoughts to buy some F-16 to prevent Pakistan from getting them? the MRCA is still open, and I doubt an American fighter will be ordered for that.

I doubt they will acquire two different platforms. Last time I checked the F-16 deal was near settled.

[TR1]

I doubt they will acquire two different platforms. Last time I checked the F-16 deal was near settled.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link Please! never heard this!

[cepera]

Read it off WAFF...not sure if I can find it -> http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/

[TR1]

I am going to cry if the F-16 has actually been ordered. but I find it hard to believe, considering Indias past and recent purchases. Also, when I google MRCa competition I have found nothing about the F-16 wnning.

[cepera]

but I find it hard to believe, considering Indias past and recent purchases.

This could explain it..

http://www.nti.org/images/e3_67a.jpg

[TR1]

I counter with this.
http://www.axisglobe.com/Image/2005/10/08/India/Putin-singh.jpg

[cepera]

Manmohan is smiling here. In urs he doesnt..

http://www.nti.org/images/e3_67a.jpg

[Ea$y-8]

India has made the right choice or so it seems.

[TR1]

cepera I think you might have been mistaken. I have looked around but have found nothing about the F-16 certainly winning the competition.

had it won, this would have been big news and widely available on the web.

[cepera]

it has not won officially but it looks as though it will.

[TR1]

I still place my bets on the MiG-35.

[cepera]

btw you know if those are twin or single seaters? IAF is buying some 10-12 Mig-29K for their new Gorshkov.

M2s are MRCAs or not?

http://www.milavia.net/airshows/maks05/maks05_34.jpg

[TR1]

for the MRCA competition, the offering is the MiG-29OVT I believe, which has the thrust vectoring nozzles and all of the upgardes from the MiG-29SMT2. I would assume that several MiG-29M2's would be present in the deal.

they are quite excellent planes, far diffirent from the base line MiG-29.

also I read that for the Gorshkov, and indiginous carriers the Migs will be the MiG-29SMTk, which is essentially a navalized SMT.

[Kilgor]

#


you forgot Iraq ;)

Tell me what arms the US provided to iraq in the saddam era ?

[Kilgor]

They go to Georgia, sing a couple of songs there and make it 100% pro-US and 100% anti-Russian. They then go to Ukraine and do the same thing there and Im quite positive that more is to come... .

To claim that only the US and the jewish oligarchs made as you say "100% pro US" the former soviet states is just reactionary BS. Yes, of course they put money into the campaigns but russia's past treatment of these states, election fraud, poisoning of candidates caused a backlash. Simply the people wanted a change from the dire past.
The former states now live in a global world and can chose their friends, and cannot be bullied by the red army anymore. Though putin does his best by turning off the gas when hes upset.

[GazB]

The former states now live in a global world and can chose their friends, and cannot be bullied by the red army anymore. Though putin does his best by turning off the gas when hes upset.

Actually I kinda feel sorry for Ukraine at the moment. Not really friendly with the west and certainly cutting ties with Russia... if they are not careful they might find themselves alone...

Regarding the F-16 purchase... rather unlikely.
If the Indians did include a purchase of American planes (which I think is unlikely as they got burned by the UK when they tested their nukes and got sanctioned, which pretty much grounded a few helos and stuff... the US uses sanctions all the time...) then I would expect it is likely they would buy F-18s instead of F-16s as Pakistan has F-16s.
The MRCA program has had many descriptions and one of them suggests as many as 200 fighters of two types. The proviso that they must be produced in India suggests that an mix of Mig-35s and F/A-18s could be a posibility with the Migs made in India again and the F-18s bought. Malaysia made a similar purchase a few years back, with the Mig-29 as a fighter and the Hornet as a light strike aircraft.

[GazB]

But my problem is not one of world domination or police action(as you noted), but instead the motives of Russia in regards to US interest.

As Signatory points out:

If Russia really cared about Iran's defense capabilities they would not sell them weapons systems. They would donate them.

Even though the days of donating expensive air defence systems is now long gone for Russia his suggestion is accurate. If Russia really just wanted to screw the US they could simply offer to deploy Russian forces under contract to defend the various sites the Iranians want defending. Hell, they could make a few bombs from Iranian Uranium in a couple of weeks and hand them a bomb that they can parade to the world if they wanted to. Apparantly they don't want to.
They have a business deal with Iran to build a nuclear reactor to generate civilian power. As the Russians point out the type of reactor is not the correct type to produce weapons grade material (ie it is not a breeder reactor that makes plutonium). With the US whining every chance it gets that the Iranians are probably making a bomb and having seen what the US did the last time it claimed it knew someone had weapons of mass destruction I would probably want to clear the sale of a few short range SAMs that could defend the reactor that I was building too.

If it really upset the US they could come up with a $20 billion cheque with no strings attached for Russia to NOT help Iran with a nuclear power facility. Of course that cheque would have to come with no strings attached... which would never happen would it? ($20 billion is peanuts compared to what it could cost the US with a strike... even if it was successful... when the Iranians start interfering in Iraq and afghanistan and the Persian gulf.


Don't over emphasize(spelling?) your personal conflict with the US's NWO order is evident in your speech.

I don't blame them... when you are the upper class who wants a revolution?
Doesn't mean the peasants have to love them for it, or even like them. In fact considering they are bending all their effort into keeping the status quo I could understand hate.

BTW this is a company selling its wares on the international market. It is not Russia selling missiles, it is Russia allowing a Russian company to sell its wares to a foreign power than is not at war with Russia and is not under international sanction. The fact that the US has a bee in its bonnet is neither here nor there.

[GazB]

while i don't like russia selling these weapons to these countrys that totally down to my point of view.

Russia selling Il-96s to Zimbabwae upsets you?

Would you run screaming through the streets if the US sold 747s to Venesuala?

Are wide body airliners really that dangerous?


it is only a matter of time we (US/Coalition) will be engaged by these more advanced weapon systems like s-300 or even 400. And since some of our Euro/Russo pals here feel it is fair game, I figured Chechens to be fair game! It's all business like most see it here...

There is a difference between a countries right to defend itself from the US and whatever coalition it has cobbled together this time... the coalition of the had nothing better to do at the time perhaps? violating the soverienty of a country by bombing the crap out of it because the US claims it has WMDs and a terrorist organisation that wants to recreate the wild west in Europe.

It is funny QRO how this thread should have died after your post confirmed that the original post was b0ll0cks, yet it just keeps on going and going and going....

[cpt.broncko]

Its the russian answer to the army and rocket bases in Turkey, Ukraine (in a few months), Georgia etc. These bases short the flying time of cruise missiles etc. to moscow and other important "targets" to a few minutes... why russia has to accept these? So lets arm the potential enemies of nato

[QRO?]

Its the russian answer to the army and rocket bases in Turkey, Ukraine (in a few months), Georgia etc. These bases short the flying time of cruise missiles etc. to moscow and other important "targets" to a few minutes...Meanwhile, in other news (http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Turkey_06-23.pdf)...:

Washington, April 28, 2006 - The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Turkey of 50 AGM-84K Joint Standoff Land Attack Missiles-Expanded Response (SLAM-ER) as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $162 million.

SLAM-ER range 150+ nm + F-16C combat radius without IFR 750 nm = 900 nm
Iskander E range 160 nm

[BlackRain]

Russia selling Il-96s to Zimbabwae upsets you?


You mean Il-96 "Flying Coffins"?

Zimbabwe: Govt Orders 'Flying Coffins' for AirZim

http://allafrica.com/stories/200604280649.html

[Dima-RussianArms]

You mean Il-96 "Flying Coffins"?
While Il 96 isn't cutting edge of the modern civilian aircraft, your statement implies that there have been multiple Il 96 crashes over the years, at the same time I have heard about none.
Do you have data that states otherwise?

[QRO?]

While Il 96 isn't cutting edge of the modern civilian aircraft, your statement implies that there have been multiple Il 96 crashes over the years, at the same time I have heard about none.
Do you have data that states otherwise?Il-96 may not be "cutting edge", but it's still a relatively modern design (first versions entered service in 1992, not much earlier than types such as A330 and B777) compared to pretty much ANYTHING flying in Africa, most of which is Boeings, Airbuses and DC/MDs from the 70's and early 80's.

There have been 0 (as in zero, none, nada) hull losses of any Il-96 versions so the plane has actually a perfect safety record thus far. A330 has one fatal crash during what could be considered development and B777 none, but there have been several recent western types with in service fatal crashes with the same number of flight hours as the Il-96 fleet. However, the statistical samples are far too low to draw any conclusions from this, it's reasonable to compare the safety of the Il-96 fleet only after about one more decade of service with the current strength and production rate.

It's however obvious, that they are definitely not "flying coffins" and any such perception by whoever Zimbabwean sources the latest article quotes is just imaginary. When you visit an African country and have a choice between local air carriers, it's definitely better to pick one with newer airplanes, regardless of origin, at least if there is a major difference in age and apparent technical condition.

[Telnyashka]

Russia might be helping with the arming of Iran because they don't wanna see Iran being taken over by a US invasion. This is probably why they are doing it. The want Iran's oil and are preparing Iran so they can protect it.

Wow you really are something. Explain to my why would Russia want Iran's oil so badly? Do you even know the huge amount of oil Russia already produces? Why would they risk huge backlash so they can get more oil, which they dont need at all...Wow and you're using AK-47s are proof that Russia is arming enemies? Every goddamn country basically can make the AK-47, its not even Russian no more. Also, a US invasion of Iran in the next few years is highly unlikely, it would be stupid. Most likely USA will stick to "limited strikes" or whatever mumbo jumbo they want to call it.

[tobigforyou]

The Kolomna Engineering Design Bureau is the leading developer of precision-guided tactical and theater missiles for the Ground Forces. http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/iskander_2.jpg
In creative cooperation with leading research and design organizations and plants of the defense industry as well as the Defense Ministry Research Institute, the KBM Engineering Design Bureau has created a number of missile systems (division-level Tochka (SS-21) with a range of up to 70 km, army-level Oka (SS-23) with a range of up to 400 km, corps-level Tochka-U with a range of up to 120 km) that superseded the first generation missile systems of the Ground Forces (9K72 with 8K14-1 liquid-propellant missile, 9K52 with the 9M21unguided solid-propellant missile,ensuring effective engagement only if nuclear-tipped).
The particular features of the aforementioned systems are: high accuracy of fire, a short time of readiness for launch, independence of combat assets, a high degree of prelaunch preparation automation and sufficiently high effectiveness of conventional warheads.
That was evidently the reason to include the Oka missile system in the Soviet-American treaty on the elimination of their intermediate range and shorter range missiles, although its maximum guaranteed range was only 400 km.
The conclusion of the 1987 INF Treaty and the decision not to use theater nuclear weapons set a number of principally new requirements for modern missile systems:
http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/iskander_1.jpg - use of non-nuclear destruction weapons only;
- precise accuracy of fire;
- control throughout the entire flight path;
- broad range of effective warheads;
- availability of battle management automation and information support systems, including preparation of standard information for correction and terminal guidance systems;
- possibility of integration into global satellite navigation systems (GSNSs), such as GLONASS and NAVSTAR;
- ability to engage hardened targets;
- increase in the number of engaged targets per unit of time;
- ability to penetrate air and missile defenses;
- capability to engage moving targets.
To meet the above requirements, the KBM Engineering Design Bureau has created the Iskander-E missile system.
The Iskander-E missile system has embodied the best scientific, technical and design achievements in the field of theater missile systems; in terms of its design and high combat effectiveness it is an absolutely new-generation weapon which outperforms existing Scud-B, Tochka-U, Lance, ATACMS, Pluto and other missile systems.
The Iskander-E missile system is designed to engage:
- hostile fire weapons (SAM and missile batteries);
- fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft at parking areas;
- air and missile defense facilities;
- command posts and communications nodes;
- vital pinpoint and area targets;
- critical civilian facilities.
Owing to the implementation of terminal control and guidance methods, control throughout the entire flight path, a broad range of powerful warheads and integration of the onboard control system with various correction and homing systems as well as a high probability of combat mission accomplishment in heavy hostile jamming environments, type targets are engaged by one or two Iskander-E missiles, which in terms of effectiveness is equivalent to the use of a nuclear munition.




For the first time in the world a missile system with a firing range not exceeding 300 km is capable of accomplishing all combat missions using conventional warheads and having two missiles on a launcher, which substantially increases the fire power potential of missile units.
Iskander-E missile system's features ensure:
- highly precise and effective engagement of various types of targets;
- possibility of concealed preparation, combat duty and delivery of effective missile strikes;
- automatic computation and input of a missile flying mission by the launcher devices;
- high probability of combat mission accomplishment in heavy hostile jamming environments;
- high probability of trouble-free missile operation during launch preparation and in flight;
- high tactical maneuverability due to cross-country combat vehicles mounted on all-wheel drive, chassis, and strategic mobility owing to transportability of the missile system by all types of transport facilities, including transport aircraft;
- automation of missile unit battle management, immediate processing of intelligence data and their dissemination to appropriate command levels;
- long service life and ease of operation.
In terms of performance characteristics, the Iskander-E missile fully complies with the provisions of the missile technology non-proliferation agreement. This is a deterrent weapon for local conflicts and a strategic weapon for countries with limited living space.
A long firing range, permitting the use of the system from the depth of own troops location, and a short time of stay on a launch site make the system virtually invulnerable to conventional destruction weapons.
The research conducted by specialists of leading Russian military research centers has demonstrated that in terms of the effectiveness-cost ratio the Iskander-E missile system outperforms the best foreign counterparts by five to eight times.
The system structure, its control systems, automated battle management and information support make it possible to promptly meet to new requirements without substantial modification of combat assets and, as a result, to guarantee a long lifespan.
Provision is made for the modernization of the Iskander-E system to improve the accuracy of missile strike, reduce missile expenditure to one piece per target and adapt the system to the transportation and electronic facilities of a potential customer.
Continuous (or periodic) maintenance of system components by highly qualified Russian specialists is also possible.
The composition of the missile system makes it possible to ensure the full cycle of its combat employment, including battle management, information support, maintenance, and crew training, without additional expenditures. The composition can be specified in a contract in compliance with customer's requirements.
In addition, at foreign customer' request, missiles can be outfitted with various warheads.
In terms of the attained combat potential level, the Iskander-E missile system, which is at the final stage of flight tests, is unrivaled in the world and is a 21st century weapon.


http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/iskander.htm

[RomanS]

Well considering the direction Russia is headed(Syria,Iran)with its better weapon systems, it is only a matter of time we (US/Coalition) will be engaged by these more advanced weapon systems like s-300 or even 400. And since some of our Euro/Russo pals here feel it is fair game, I figured Chechens to be fair game! It's all business like most see it here...:|
Right?

hahahahahah

sell anything you want to Chechens.

Ofcourse if we will be realistic and more authentic, before any large piles of weapons make into Chechnya it will be taken care by dedicated Russian specialists.

Than we have this one issue, most of the weapons that will be donated to Chechens by US will be either sold or donated to their brothers fighting Western Infidels in Iraq. I would love to see a Chechnya based mudjahedin talking to Americans. they actually hate you too.

So without further nuclear retardation, I say you must research about Chechnya first, and than think about what you are saying.

Chechnya is not a country, they cant purchase anything legally ;)

Plus imagine how it would look if world finds out that US gave/sold weapons to fuks that kill innocent school children.

Not good, not good my American friend

[cepera]

To claim that only the US and the jewish oligarchs made as you say "100% pro US" the former soviet states is just reactionary BS. Yes, of course they put money into the campaigns but russia's past treatment of these states, election fraud, poisoning of candidates caused a backlash. Simply the people wanted a change from the dire past.


LOL

What a hell do you know about how the former states were treated? Did you live there? Have you ever been there for that matter? You probably got that idea from watching CNN or ABC, so I suggest you keep quiet. For you information the former "oppressed" states, such as Georgia or Poland and Baltics had a much higher standard of living then Russians themselves.


The former states now live in a global world and can chose their friends, and cannot be bullied by the red army anymore. Though putin does his best by turning off the gas when hes upset

Dude you should close your yap about the gas..its getting old. Ukrainians were paying LESS for Russian gas then Russians were paying for it themselves...call it fair?

As you said, they "can chose their friends" and Ushenko did. Now that Putin wants to normalize the gas prices, they start crying and calling it "destruction of democracy". Wanna join NATO, go ahead...wanna join EU go ahead but dont expect Russia to pay for you well-being.

[Ea$y-8]

Wow you really are something. Explain to my why would Russia want Iran's oil so badly? Do you even know the huge amount of oil Russia already produces?

Russia buys a lot of Iranian as does China. Russia has the biggest oil reserve in the world IIRC. Russian oil companies like Gazprom and Lukoil are doing business.And they are SELLING weapons to Iran and thus ARMING it. And I am aware that EVERY ME country has a stock pill of AKs.

[TR1]

Russia buys a lot of Iranian as does China. Russia has the biggest oil reserve in the world IIRC. And they are SELLING weapons to Iran and thus ARMING it.

Is there a problem with arming Iran?

[Dima-RussianArms]

russia's past treatment of these states
Kilgor, all of us already used to the fact that you know nothing about life in the USSR or modern day Russia and just repeat same hateful bs over and over again like a broken record.
But lately the level of ignorance and bs coming from you had skyrocketed, what is it - seasonal worsening?

FYI, Georgia was considered to be the WEALTHIEST rebupblic in the USSR with the highest standard of living.
The amount of privileges, independence and wealth that Georgians enjoied was incomparable to anyone else in the union.
Baltic republics were the second ones in terms of standard of living.

What makes it funny, ok I really enjoy it, look at those sh**holes now :)