Have we just witnessed a "new style" elections?

[fdt]

Polls predicted safe PP victory. Then went kaboom. PP looses elections. AQ murderers celebrate.... they 've just made a big hole in Western World's fundament which is democracy...

Any comments on lunatical fanatics who hit randomly just for satisfaction that they've killed infidels?

[Kilgor]

method in their madness and its working to plan ! :(

[Vance]

What is PP?

[fdt]

What is PP?Partido (?) Popular - Conservative Aznar's Popular Party.

[fantassin]

The first time the USA are directly responsible for the return of a Socialist government in Europe.

6% difference, that's quite a lot; at the moment, it's 43% for the socialist PSOE and 37% for the PP, Bush's friends.

I wonder how long the Spanish contingent will remain in Iraq now.

[IsdatU]

This election is a big victory for Al Qaida.

[fdt]

The first time the USA are directly responsible for the return of a Socialist government in Europe.
USA? Directly? Hmmm I thought it was rather AQ who stood behind the carnage which influenced the elections... :cantbeli:

[fantassin]

The Spanish Interior minister has just confirmed the Socialists have won the elections.

[UkrainianAmerican]

The first time the USA are directly responsible for the return of a Socialist government in Europe.
6% difference, that's quite a lot; at the moment, it's 43% for the socialist PSOE and 37% for the PP, Bush's friends.

I wonder how long the Spanish contingent will remain in Iraq now.
First of all, shut the f*ck up. Second of all, with all due respect and condolensces to the spanish people, how the f*ck does blame gets laid on THEIR government and not on the murderers?

[IsdatU]

The first time the USA are directly responsible for the return of a Socialist government in Europe.


Actually it was Al Qaida that did it. They won the battle for Spain.

Interesting, the Spanish were ready to go after the ETA. But when its the muslims, they vote to cut and run.

[fantassin]

Because it's easier to blame the spanish government for having taken a decision that was not backed by a majority of spaniards than to blame face-less terrorists, that's why.

And also because the spanish socialists can now very easely say "We told you so, we should not have gotten involved; we've followed the americans and now look at the results".

And because the spanish government tried to force down the people's throat it was the Basque's fault because they knew they would have to face the music if it had been AQ.

And face la musica they did.

[fdt]

Spanish socialists may withdraw Iraq troops if elected

MADRID: Spain’s opposition Socialist Party (PSOE) leader said on Thursday that if he wins a March 14 general election he will withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq at the end of June unless a UN-led force takes charge.
“They will return home if the United Nations does not take charge of the situation” in Iraq, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero told Tele 5 television.
Spain currently has 1,300 troops serving in Iraq whom the conservative government of Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar deployed last August in the teeth of massive political and public opposition.
Aznar was one of the staunchest supporters of the US-led invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq.
The Spanish mission in Iraq officially runs until June 30 and the government elected next month will have to decide whether to extend it.
Zapatero’s comments made clear that a Socialist government would only agree to that under a future UN peacekeeping mandate.
The PSOE leader, who will go up against the Popular Party’s Mariano Rajoy in the election with Aznar voluntarily stepping down from power, also said that in his view “the situation has become worse” in Iraq in recent months.
Zapatero explained that while he gave his full support to the troops themselves he believed they should not be left in an unstable country, sent there on the basis of “a serious error of the government. —AFP


Forgot the link, sorry...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_14-2-2004_pg4_11

Sorry for such a "source", but this Pakistani news site was the first I've googled out of net (it's after the AFP). Will the election winners dare to keep their promises?

[IsdatU]

Because it's easier to blame the spanish government for having taken a decision that was not backed by a majority of spaniards than to blame face-less terrorists, that's why.

And also because the spanish socialists can now very easely say "We told you so, we should not have gotten involved; we've followed the americans and now look at the results".

Appeasement did not work for Neville Chamberlin, why do the socialists think it will work for them?

Also, why do you people wish to appease terrorists? You should want to join the good fight against Islamic terrorism.

Perhaps you think it is wrong or perhaps "racist" to fight against Islamic terrorists?

[IsdatU]

Will the election winners dare to keep their promises?

Count on it.

This Islamic terrorist victory in Spain just goes to show that terrorism is effective, thus it will encourage more attacks. Also, The very threat of terrorist attack will bring more concessions from those European governments that fear the wrath of Islam.

[fantassin]

Also, why do you people wish to appease terrorists? You should want to join the good fight against Islamic terrorism.



Where did you see I wrote or thought that?

The main problem is that most of Europe sees no link between Iraq and terrorism. And they don't look at IED against US forces as terrorism, they see that as resistance to occupation.

The link was obvious in Afghanistan and you have most european countries there.

[Luxembourger]

do you think too that by leaving the build up of IRAQ , spanish troops will be pullled back from Enduring freedom missions`?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I doubt after recent events that any party will be willing to withdraw troops from Iraq or support for the war on Al-Q, I could be wrong but the last Left wing government sanctioned the use of hit squads against ETA hardly the soft fuzzy sentimental attitude that many of left bashers here would condem.

[IsdatU]

The main problem is that most of Europe sees no link between Iraq and terrorism.

They are in denial.

US forces captured Abu Abbas in Baghdad. Saddam Hussien was giving money to the homicide bombers in Israel.

[fantassin]

OEF and OIF are two different things as you very well know; I don't see why one should affect the other. Germany has a socialist gvt at the moment but it's also one of the main contributor to OEF.

There is no controversy around OEF; there is a lot of arguing about the real goals of OIF...

[fdt]

Will the election winners dare to keep their promises?

Count on it.

This Islamic terrorist victory in Spain just goes to show that terrorism is effective, thus it will encourage more attacks. Also, The very threat of terrorist attack will bring more concessions from those European governments that fear the wrath of Islam.Prejudiced to Europeans? I'am one too... Maybe I am naive, but I believe that Spaniards will do the right thing despite all the tragedy and confusion they've experienced.

[UkrainianAmerican]

When is Fortress Europe going to wake up (Besides the Brits) and smell the ****ing coffee?

[Hydro]

Believe me, mate, we (the Brits) need to wake up and smell the coffee!!!

[IsdatU]

do you think too that by leaving the build up of IRAQ , spanish troops will be pullled back from Enduring freedom missions`?

First the will make a show where they demand that the US put its forces in Iraq under UN authority. That will not happen, so they will pull Spanish troops out as they planned all along.

[aeternum]

Germany has a socialist gvt at the moment but it's also one of the main contributor to OEF.

There is a difference between socialists and social democrates. Schroeder is a social democrat, like Tony Blair is. He isnt a socialist.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Believe me, mate, we (the Brits) need to wake up and smell the coffee!!!
Well your country is definitely in the top 5 participants in the war on terror.

[UkrainianAmerican]

has a socialist gvt at the moment but it's also one of the main contributor to OEF.

There is a difference between socialists and social democrates. Schroeder is a social democrat, like Tony Blair is. He isnt a socialist.
There might be a difference but both suck ass.
(Although blair sucks more then that, hehe)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The main problem is that most of Europe sees no link between Iraq and terrorism. And they don't look at IED against US forces as terrorism, they see that as resistance to occupation.
The link was obvious in Afghanistan and you have most european countries there.
I to did not see the any link between Al-Q and Saddam, Al-Q only became a problem when we invaded Iraq and deposed the secular Baathist's leaving all the mad foaming at the mouth mullah's to fill the void. Saddam and the boys were truly monsters but they could have been kept on a tight leash for a while until attempts were made to declaw fundamentalist Islam.

[IsdatU]

Believe me, mate, we (the Brits) need to wake up and smell the coffee!!!

After their success in Spain, I fear that the muslim fundamentalists will inevitably attack Britain and Poland. France too because of the veil issue.

Be on guard, especially when election season rolls around.

[Hydro]

"Well your country is definitely in the top 5 participants in the war on terror."


Yeah, that's true, but for all our efforts overseas, things at home are going down the toilet...a huge illegal immigrant problem makes it relatively easy for any terrorists to slip in. Not that long ago Heathrow Airport was considered at such risk from terrorists with MANPADS that light armoured cavalry units were deployed :(

[fantassin]

When is Fortress Europe going to wake up (Besides the Brits) and smell the f*** coffee?
[quote]


Europe has been fighting islamic terror for over 15 years; there were arab bombs exploding in Europe when most americans could not locate the Lebanon on the map.

As for the brits, it took them years before they started acting on tips given by the French police on all the AQ activists and sympathizers operating in and around London, especially at the Finsbury park mosque.



[/quote]Finsbury Park mosque has come under the spotlight several times for alleged links to Muslim terror suspects. BBC Home Affairs reporter Danny Shaw profiles the controversial place of worship in London.
The North London Central Mosque, based in Finsbury Park, is inextricably linked with its controversial cleric, or Imam, Sheikh Abu Hamza.


Just one of the imams: Sheikh Abu Hamza
But although the sheikh has been questioned by the police, and although the centre has been under surveillance, there's no proof to link it, or Abu Hamza, with the recruitment of al-Qaeda terrorists.

The mosque, situated a corner-kick away from Highbury - the home of Arsenal Football Club - serves a diverse community of Pakistanis, Bengalis, Algerians and Egyptians.

It's one of London's largest mosques, with room for up to 2,000 men and 100 women. Some simply come to worship, others take part in classes in Muslim culture, Arabic and the Koran.

Controversial figure

There's nothing unusual in attending the mosque - it's open to casual visitors and most Muslims who've lived in the area for some time will probably have been there at some point.

Overall responsibility for the running of the mosque lies with a committee of leading community figures. But as one of the imams, Abu Hamza plays a leading role.


Briton Feroz Abassi, currently held in Guantanamo Bay
The sheikh, an Egyptian by birth who's lived in the UK for 20 years, has a long history of support for radical Islamic causes and is outspoken in his belief in the implementation of Shariah law.

He is particularly distinctive because of his hook and his single eye, believed to be the results of his fighting with the mujahideen in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union.

In 1999, Abu Hamza was questioned by Scotland Yard detectives on suspicion of terrorism offences. He was held for several days before being released without charge.

Further scrutiny

The Yemeni authorities had requested his arrest and extradition, claiming he was linked to plots to bomb targets there. Abu Hamza denied the accusations - and he's continued to preach at the mosque ever since.

After the 11 September attacks in the United States, the mosque came under further scrutiny as allegations surfaced that al-Qaeda supporters had attended meetings there.

They included Djamel Beghal, who's accused of plotting terrorist attacks in France, and Feroz Abbasi, one of the Britons detained by the Americans in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He's said to have joined the mosque after turning to Islam.

None of it reflects on the vast majority of those who attend prayers there - law-abiding, peaceful Muslims; but it means their place of worship will remain under the spotlight for some time to come.



[quote][/quote]

[UkrainianAmerican]

"Well your country is definitely in the top 5 participants in the war on terror."


Yeah, that's true, but for all our efforts overseas, things at home are going down the toilet...a huge illegal immigrant problem makes it relatively easy for any terrorists to slip in. Not that long ago Heathrow Airport was considered at such risk from terrorists with MANPADS that light armoured cavalry units were deployed :(
Yeah, and you got that Captain Hook who needs to get lead poisoning ASAP.

[Hydro]

"Well your country is definitely in the top 5 participants in the war on terror."


Yeah, that's true, but for all our efforts overseas, things at home are going down the toilet...a huge illegal immigrant problem makes it relatively easy for any terrorists to slip in. Not that long ago Heathrow Airport was considered at such risk from terrorists with MANPADS that light armoured cavalry units were deployed :(
Yeah, and you got that Captain Hook who needs to get lead poisoning ASAP.


I hear that! Abu Hamza needs to meet the wrong end of UKSF sharpish :)

[fdt]

There's been a very bad example to whole world. Example of how terrorists may succeed in influencing the democratical societies with violence. If it succeded once why not try it again? The message was sent to all murderers and I believe they have already understood it well. Will we be able to draw any serious conclusions of it? There is a lot of elections to be held this year... including the ONE on November. Will that be held the new style too? Some politicians may also learn that pacifism pays off...

[fantassin]

How did it come out all green ? :roll:

I am WAY too computer stupid to have produced anything quite like that !

[UkrainianAmerican]

How did it come out all green ? :roll:

I am WAY too computer stupid to have produced anything quite like that !
New lie-detector code?
(Just kidding)

[IsdatU]

Prejudiced to Europeans? I'am one too... Maybe I am naive, but I believe that Spaniards will do the right thing despite all the tragedy and confusion they've experienced.

I am simply observing their reactions. When people thought it was ETA, they were ready to fight. But when it turned out to be Islamic terrorists, they vote for socialists candidates who vow that as leaders they will cut and run from the war on terror.

These modern Spanish do not have the fighting spirit of their ancestors who fought and won the 'Reconquista" against the Islamic Moors.

[UkrainianAmerican]

There's been a very bad example to whole world. Example of how terrorists may succeed in influencing the democratical societies with violence. If it succeded once why not try it again? The message was sent to all murderers and I believe they have already understood it well. Will we be able to draw any serious conclusions of it? There is a lot of elections to be held this year... including the ONE on November. Will that be held the new style too? Some politicians may also learn that pacifism pays off...
If us gets attacked and suffers civilians casualtiees, Bush wins in a landslide. The harsher the attack the more point he will get.

[fantassin]

Example of how terrorists may succeed in influencing the democratical societies with violence


I think the result is due 50% to the war in Iraq and 50% because of the attempted cover up and pointing the finger at the Basques at the beginning of the inquiry.

Remember that on Thursday, the spanish interior minister said he was convinced the Basques at done it.

The Spaniards are proud people; they hate being taken for fools, especially by their Prime Minister.

[IsdatU]

There's been a very bad example to whole world. Example of how terrorists may succeed in influencing the democratical societies with violence. If it succeded once why not try it again? The message was sent to all murderers and I believe they have already understood it well. Will we be able to draw any serious conclusions of it? There is a lot of elections to be held this year... including the ONE on November. Will that be held the new style too? Some politicians may also learn that pacifism pays off...

The Islamic terrorists wish for the pacifists to win the elections in Western countries.

So yes, there will be more terrorist attacks on Western nations to influence the outcome of the elections.

[fantassin]

they will cut and run from the war on terror.

That's where you don't understand things as they are seen from here in Europe; Iraq is NOT war on terror for most everybody here, it's the US acquiring a lot of oil. Period.

[fdt]

There's been a very bad example to whole world. Example of how terrorists may succeed in influencing the democratical societies with violence. If it succeded once why not try it again? The message was sent to all murderers and I believe they have already understood it well. Will we be able to draw any serious conclusions of it? There is a lot of elections to be held this year... including the ONE on November. Will that be held the new style too? Some politicians may also learn that pacifism pays off...
If us gets attacked and suffers civilians casualtiees, Bush wins in a landslide. The harsher the attack the more point he will get.So it will be "new style" peaceful elections. AQ won't dare to hit on US soil.... but they may seek their chance attacking US citizens abroad. Such a plan could mess up the elections as US public is to some extent vulnerable to such events... AQ ass*holes are not morons.

[IsdatU]

I think the result is due 50% to the war in Iraq and 50% because of the attempted cover up and pointing the finger at the Basques at the beginning of the inquiry.


Agreed, many there are saying that the government brought on the wrath of the Islamic terrorists by supporting the USA in its war on Islamic terrorism.

[UkrainianAmerican]

they will cut and run from the war on terror.

That's where you don't understand things as they are seen from here in Europe; Iraq is NOT war on terror for most everybody here, it's the US acquiring a lot of oil. Period.
Well we sure aint doing SOMETHING right, because the oil prices are still sky-high!

[Hydro]

It seems like a bit of a Catch 22 situation for nations directly involved in the war on terror. Support it, and you get bombed. Pull out from it, and the terrorists win. No one wants either of those choices.

[fantassin]

Just heard now on the French radio that the AQ cell that planted the Madrid bombs could be from Hansar al islam and that they could have been coming from Bagdad....

[fdt]

Just heard now on the French radio that the AQ cell that planted the Madrid bombs could be from Hansar al islam and that they could have been coming from Bagdad.... Tomorrow someone will make a ststement that all terrorists involved in the Madrid carnage have lost their wives, kids, mamas, papas, uncles, aunts, grandpas, grandmas, nephews and nieces because of US bombs. The madrid attack goes on, but now it's the propaganda stage... I don't buy that version, logistically too risky to use guys from Iraq in attack on Spain.

[IsdatU]

they will cut and run from the war on terror.

That's where you don't understand things as they are seen from here in Europe; Iraq is NOT war on terror for most everybody here, it's the US acquiring a lot of oil. Period.

And by focusing on these conspiracy theories, they ignore that Saddam was playing "hide-n-seek" with the weapons inspectors. The US called Saddam's bluff.

Also, many Europeans have ignored Saddam's support for Islamic terrorists. He gave money to the families of the homicide bombers in Israel. Of course most Europeans are anti-Israel, so its a non-issue to them.

BTW, did they forget about Abu Abbas? Perhaps they are trying to forget?

[fantassin]

like yourself

You are mind reading now?

[IsdatU]

like yourself

You are mind reading now?

Sorry,

I read your earlier posts all wrong. I thought you were meaning that you believed those things.

[Flagg]

Well we sure aint doing SOMETHING right, because the oil prices are still sky-high!

Unfortunately :| ,the current pricing of oil is being attributed to 2 things:

1.) Chinese demand is high..and will continue to rise as that nation's economy continues to expand at a high rate

2.) Inability/disinterest in increasing production.......we're currently in an oil producer "sweat spot"...if the price goes much higher.....it could result in recession...reducing demand......lowering prices on the other hand means the oil producers would be working harder for roughly the same amount of money....so it's in their best interest to have oil prices at the high end of price tolerance

[fantassin]

Not necessarily, just exposing things are they are seen here in Western Europe in general and in France in particular.

BTW, José Luis Zapadero, the PSOE leader and probable futur Spanish Prime Minister has just said fighting terrorism will be the new gvt priority.

[IsdatU]

I am wondering when France is going to get hit for angering the muslims over that veil issue.

If they stayed out of the war on terror so as not to draw the ire of the muslims, then they sure messed up here.

[aeternum]

Also, many Europeans have ignored Saddam's support for Islamic terrorists. He gave money to the families of the homicide bombers in Israel. Of course most Europeans are anti-Israel, so its a non-issue to them.

The terror in Israel is another subject. They are fighting against Israelean occupation and fighting for their own country. The global islamic terror is fighting the principals of western civilizations. Period. Just because they use the same method, terror, doesnt mean they fighting for the same goal.


BTW, did they forget about Abu Abbas? Perhaps they are trying to forget?

And? He was/lived whatever in Bagdad, so what. Atta lived in Hamburg, Germany. So Germany did support the terrorists?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Well we sure aint doing SOMETHING right, because the oil prices are still sky-high!

Unfortunately :| ,the current pricing of oil is being attributed to 2 things:

1.) Chinese demand is high..and will continue to rise as that nation's economy continues to expand at a high rate

2.) Inability/disinterest in increasing production.......we're currently in an oil producer "sweat spot"...if the price goes much higher.....it could result in recession...reducing demand......lowering prices on the other hand means the oil producers would be working harder for roughly the same amount of money....so it's in their best interest to have oil prices at the high end of price tolerance
That mostly applies to the OPEC cartel. But can't "zee okupiers" get the oil flowing on OUR terms, hehe?

[fantassin]

I am wondering when France is going to get hit for angering the muslims over that veil issue

France has already been threatened a few month ago in an AQ tape for the veil issue.


If they stayed out of the war on terror

Get some better infos; France is part of the GWAT from the beginning, has had troops in Afghanistan since 2001, was the second most important contributor of air power over Afghanistan, not to mention Navy boats patrolling as part of TF 150 and many covert and police operations.

[Nite]

And by focusing on these conspiracy theories, they ignore that Saddam was playing "hide-n-seek" with the weapons inspectors. The US called Saddam's bluff.

Also, many Europeans have ignored Saddam's support for Islamic terrorists. He gave money to the families of the homicide bombers in Israel. Of course most Europeans are anti-Israel, so its a non-issue to them.

BTW, did they forget about Abu Abbas? Perhaps they are trying to forget?
Well, on the other hand saddam was fighting a small war against 'Answar al Islam' (which is in fact an Al Quaida Group) in northern Iraq.

[IsdatU]

BTW, did they forget about Abu Abbas? Perhaps they are trying to forget?

And? He was/lived whatever in Bagdad, so what. Atta lived in Hamburg, Germany. So Germany did support the terrorists?

Abu Abbas was a fugitive terrorist. That Saddam Hussien gave him refuge is enough reason to declare war.

Atta stayed in Germany? This makes Schroeder's government look worse and worse...


You don't have to convince me that the Europeans support the PLO terrorism. It is why they are ambivilent about this war on Islamic terrorism.

BTW, it is Arabs that are occupying Israeli lands.

[fantassin]

I can see where this thread is going....how to go from Spain to Israel in 50 something messages....boring, boring, the old man is snoring....

[Whistler]

Heres Reuteurs:


MADRID (*******) - Opposition Socialists won Spain's general election on Sunday when voters swept the government from power, blaming its Iraq policy for last week's suspected al Qaeda attack in Madrid.

I have to say, I was not expecting Spain to roll over like this :( . They've let terrorists decide the future of their country.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Heres Reuteurs:


MADRID (*******) - Opposition Socialists won Spain's general election on Sunday when voters swept the government from power, blaming its Iraq policy for last week's suspected al Qaeda attack in Madrid.

I have to say, I was not expecting Spain to roll over like this :(
Yeah, this is a sad day in the war on terror.

[fantassin]

I have to say, I was not expecting Spain to roll over like this



Terrible isn't it ? a country in which the man who gets the most vote wins...I suppose if Aznar's brother had been the mayor of Madrid, maybe he could have won with 500,000 votes less than his competitor...

;)

[IsdatU]

Well, on the other hand saddam was fighting a small war against 'Answar al Islam' (which is in fact an Al Quaida Group) in northern Iraq.

And Abu Nidal, a guest of Saddam Hussien, was killed by his own thugs. Nothing more than factional infighting.

Al Qaida is a network of many organizations. There are some Islamic terrorist groups that are not affiliated with Al Qaida. Abu Nidal had his own organization and was supported by Saddam Hussien. There is also Abu Abbas that the Europeans keep ignoring here.

[fdt]

BTW, it is Arabs that are occupying Israeli lands.Could You be more specific on that issue?

[IsdatU]

I have to say, I was not expecting Spain to roll over like this



Terrible isn't it ? a country in which the man who gets the most vote wins...I suppose if Aznar's brother had been the mayor of Madrid, maybe he could have won with 500,000 votes less than his competitor...

;)

It seems to me that you are happy with this socialist victory. I think you too prefer appeasement and accomidation with the Islamic terrorists.

[IsdatU]

BTW, it is Arabs that are occupying Israeli lands.Could You be more specific on that issue?

Look at what the maps were like before the 1967 war. The west bank area was part of Jordan, then called Trans-Jordan. So these "Palestinians" are really Jordanians.

[fdt]

I have to say, I was not expecting Spain to roll over like this



Terrible isn't it ? a country in which the man who gets the most vote wins...I suppose if Aznar's brother had been the mayor of Madrid, maybe he could have won with 500,000 votes less than his competitor...
;)Very funny... :(

[UkrainianAmerican]

BTW, it is Arabs that are occupying Israeli lands.Could You be more specific on that issue?

Look at what the maps were like before the 1967 war. The west bank area was part of Jordan, then called Trans-Jordan. So these "Palestinians" are really Jordanians.
I think the term Jordyptians i smore accurate ;) .

[Whistler]

Heres Reuteurs:


MADRID (*******) - Opposition Socialists won Spain's general election on Sunday when voters swept the government from power, blaming its Iraq policy for last week's suspected al Qaeda attack in Madrid.

I have to say, I was not expecting Spain to roll over like this :(
Yeah, this is a sad day in the war on terror.

This is a sad day PERIOD when an entire nation can blink in the face of terror and let it take control of their democracy.

Lets hope to God this doesn't motivate Al Qaeda to try the same thing in on American 2004.

[fdt]

BTW, it is Arabs that are occupying Israeli lands.Could You be more specific on that issue?

Look at what the maps were like before the 1967 war. The west bank area was part of Jordan, then called Trans-Jordan. So these "Palestinians" are really Jordanians.Palestinians and Jordanians are both Arabs, but what Israeli lands do they occupy?

[IsdatU]

I think the term Jordyptians i smore accurate ;) .

Arafat was born in Egypt, no?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Heres Reuteurs:


MADRID (*******) - Opposition Socialists won Spain's general election on Sunday when voters swept the government from power, blaming its Iraq policy for last week's suspected al Qaeda attack in Madrid.

I have to say, I was not expecting Spain to roll over like this :(
Yeah, this is a sad day in the war on terror.

This is a sad day PERIOD when an entire nation can blink in the face of terror and let it take control of their democracy.

Lets hope to God this doesn't motivate Al Qaeda to try the same thing in on American 2004.
They can try, and cement Bushs victory.

[IsdatU]

BTW, it is Arabs that are occupying Israeli lands.Could You be more specific on that issue?

Look at what the maps were like before the 1967 war. The west bank area was part of Jordan, then called Trans-Jordan. So these "Palestinians" are really Jordanians.Palestinians and Jordanians are both Arabs, but what Israeli lands do they occupy?

The West Bank.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I think the term Jordyptians i smore accurate ;) .

Arafat was born in Egypt, no?
He sure is, as well as Gaza Strip. ;)

[fdt]

BTW, it is Arabs that are occupying Israeli lands.Could You be more specific on that issue?

Look at what the maps were like before the 1967 war. The west bank area was part of Jordan, then called Trans-Jordan. So these "Palestinians" are really Jordanians.Palestinians and Jordanians are both Arabs, but what Israeli lands do they occupy?

The West Bank.When the West Bank was Israeli? When did Palestinians invaded it?

[fantassin]

an entire nation can blink in the face of terror and let it take control of their democracy.



Much more to do with telling the gvt there is only so much it can do against the will of its people, ie lying (designating ETA instead of AQ), not listening to the majority (Iraq), marying the PM's daughter has if she was a queen while the country was suffering the worst oil slick of its history...

Aznar (even though he was not himself competing) and his party has also paid the price of his arrogance.

[IsdatU]

This is a sad day PERIOD when an entire nation can blink in the face of terror and let it take control of their democracy.

Lets hope to God this doesn't motivate Al Qaeda to try the same thing in on American 2004.

It has been a big victory for the Islamic terrorists in Spain.

If they don't think Kerry can win, then they might try to kill Bush.

[UkrainianAmerican]

BTW, it is Arabs that are occupying Israeli lands.Could You be more specific on that issue?

Look at what the maps were like before the 1967 war. The west bank area was part of Jordan, then called Trans-Jordan. So these "Palestinians" are really Jordanians.Palestinians and Jordanians are both Arabs, but what Israeli lands do they occupy?

The West Bank.When the West Bank was Israeli? When did Palestinians invaded it?
Israeli as of June 1967, by international law, no less.

[UkrainianAmerican]

This is a sad day PERIOD when an entire nation can blink in the face of terror and let it take control of their democracy.

Lets hope to God this doesn't motivate Al Qaeda to try the same thing in on American 2004.

It has been a big victory for the Islamic terrorists in Spain.

If they don't think Kerry can win, then they might try to kill Bush.
There are a LOT of highly-trained secret service agents in their way.

[AFACadet]

Wow, this is a rather disturbing and depressing turn of events :(

[IsdatU]

an entire nation can blink in the face of terror and let it take control of their democracy.



Much more to do with telling the gvt there is only so much it can do against the will of its people, ie lying (designating ETA instead of AQ), not listening to the majority (Iraq), marying the PM's daughter has if she was a queen while the country was suffering the worst oil slick of its history...

Aznar (even though he was not himself competing) and his party has also paid the price of his arrogance.

Some valid points, but you ignore the role of Al Qaida.

Simpy put, it was Al Qaida that planned for this to happen because they want the socialists/pacifists in power there. They prefer that the european powers adopt appeasement and accomidation rather than active resistance to their cause.

[Kilgor]

Jeez.. always back to Israel.

If any country think they are safe from these animals they are wrong.
France used to be on very good terms with the Arab world, now they are on the ****list because of the veil issue.

You can blame foreign policy, jews, oil, bush ... blah blah but at the core level this is a clash of culturem made worse by so many muslims living in poverty. Poverty always breeds religious extremism and there are many clerics who love blaming the west and jews rather than their own oppressive governments and f*cked up religion. Intersting to note that many wealthy islamic clerics send their children for a formal education in the west.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Jeez.. always back to Israel.

If any country think they are safe from these animals they are wrong.
France used to be on very good terms with the Arab world, now they are on the ****list because of the veil issue.

You can blame foreign policy, jews, oil, bush ... blah blah but at the core level this is a clash of culturem made worse by so many muslims living in poverty. Poverty always breeds religious extremism and there are many clerics who love blaming the west and jews rather than their own oppressive governments and f*cked up religion. Intersting to note that many wealthy islamic clerics send their children for a formal education in the west.
Nicely said!

[Whistler]

Agreed. Before the terror attacks, EVERY poll projected the PP party as the victors.

Then, the terror struck. If anybody believes this is "democracy at work", I'd rather that it didn't work. It is a very depressing thing when the acts of a handful of mudering thugs, if timed well, can throw the election of an entire nation.

Spain has set a precedent. Now terrorists all over the world see that they can control the outcome of a democtratic election if they strike hard enough and at the right time.

British and American elections are coming up. These groups better not think they can pull the same thing off again.

[IsdatU]

British and American elections are coming up. These groups better not think they can pull the same thing off again.

They had so much success in Spain, you know they will want to try it again.

[Kilgor]

Spain has set a precedent. Now terrorists all over the world see that they can control the outcome of a democtratic election if they strike hard enough and at the right time.

.

Bloody hell :(

We have a election in Australia in Novemember.

I can see a terrorist attack happening, I feel sick.

[Flagg]

That mostly applies to the OPEC cartel. But can't "zee okupiers" get the oil flowing on OUR terms, hehe?

I'd like to think "mates-rates" would be possible.....but I reckon it's unlikely we would get a BIG discount from market rates...as it would be propaganda fuel for the opposition...and if the local populace got wind of it...they'd likely complain that discounting would be taking away from people in abject poverty....and giving to the wealthy...or something like that

[cut]

British and American elections are coming up. These groups better not think they can pull the same thing off again.

ah no you see we're sorted in Britain, the opposition party in Britain is the conservatives, and if you believe the right-wing americans al-quaeda only like left-wingers, they'll try and keep the Tony Blair in power, so we're safe by that reckoning. :D

[UkrainianAmerican]

That mostly applies to the OPEC cartel. But can't "zee okupiers" get the oil flowing on OUR terms, hehe?

I'd like to think "mates-rates" would be possible.....but I reckon it's unlikely we would get a BIG discount from market rates...as it would be propaganda fuel for the opposition...and if the local populace got wind of it...they'd likely complain that discounting would be taking away from people in abject poverty....and giving to the wealthy...or something like that
I want my oil who cares what the stupid iraqi bums think :lol:

[cut]

Spain has set a precedent. Now terrorists all over the world see that they can control the outcome of a democtratic election if they strike hard enough and at the right time.

.

Bloody hell :(

We have a election in Australia in Novemember.

I can see a terrorist attack happening, I feel sick.

Nah, if we've learned anything about al qaeda it's that they have never done the same kind of attack twice.

[Whistler]

Thats because nobody has ever given in to one before :( .

I am sure they will not use the exact same method, but the goal will be the same. I know I will be paying close attention to the news as the elections of all major western democracies draw closer.

[Kilgor]

Bomb has been planted, *pause* terrorists win.

got that counterstrike message stuck in my head now.. grrr !

[TALOS]

I'm amazed that people are still crying "its all about the oil"
They have been saying that since the first Gulf War.
I'm curious, exactly how much oil has the US taken from Iraq? Without paying I mean. Show me some "legitimate" stats pls.

[cut]

The spannish voters were pissed off with for going to war in iraq, the terrorist attacks added to that elsewhere such an attack is unlikely to affect the vote in the same way. If it did happen in Oz I think it would be more likely that people would vote conservative as a reaction.

[ShadowNeo]

I don't see how a terrorist attack in the UK with the intent of changing the leadership would really be successful for AQ.

The Conservative Party's views on the War on Terror are pretty simmilar, if not identical to Labours'. The only party with somewhat different views are the Liberal Democrats, but considering they never get a significant share of any vote, I would hardly count on them getting elected.

[Whistler]

I don't think it would be successful either, but now that these groups have seen it happen once, they are bound to try again.

I hope I'm being alarmist, I really do, but I am not feeling very optimistic after the last few days.

[Kilgor]

I'm amazed that people are still crying "its all about the oil"
.

the "oil" issue is used by people who do not have the intelligence to use more than three letter words.

[cut]

I'm amazed that people are still crying "its all about the oil"
They have been saying that since the first Gulf War.
I'm curious, exactly how much oil has the US taken from Iraq? Without paying I mean. Show me some "legitimate" stats pls.


In terms of oil, the US is not stealing any, people that claim that are ignorant to the problems that would cause the US. However, Iraq is the second largest source of oil in the world. Before Saddam, the US had no access to that oil, now they can buy it, when you have the spending power of the west you don't need to steal, but you do need to be able to buy it. Also the contractors in Iraq are almost all american, even the british companies given contracts are american owned (some thanks for steadfast support). So the US economy does benefit from this.

That is the nature of politics, there would not have been a war if removing Saddam and freeing the Iraqi people was the only issue. If it were there are countries like Zimbabwe where that **** mugabe is doing a lot worse than saddam and the west is not intrested, even though it would have been an easier fight. So oil is an issue, but it's the way wars are fought.

[Miles Teg]

Agreed. Before the terror attacks, EVERY poll projected the PP party as the victors.

In France, we learn something during the last presidential :

NEVER trust the polls.

Edit note : We have a vote (regional) next week.

And what make you believe that the new spanish prime minister will be nice with terrorists...?

[Kilgor]

So oil is an issue, but it's the way wars are fought.

The US learned that lession in somalia.
Tried to do the right thing, got their nose bloody and said **** it.

[Miles Teg]

And for me the new style election come from russia.

I want some other adivce from the russian present here. because our medias reflect the last elections like a dictatorship lead by Putin. (TV brodcoast closed, candidate disappearing...)

Please, I want to see more clear.

[ogukuo72]

The spannish voters were pissed off with for going to war in iraq, the terrorist attacks added to that elsewhere such an attack is unlikely to affect the vote in the same way. If it did happen in Oz I think it would be more likely that people would vote conservative as a reaction.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, the whole world is going to draw exactly the same false conclusion : that the Spainese people has voted the government out of power because they blamed it for the terrorist attacks. All the major media are already reporting it as such.

It's inevitable that Al-Qaeda would think of this as a propaganda victory, and they probably think that they could try the same thing again with other countries.

We can't fault the democratic process of another country, but I can't help but feel that the Spanish people has let the rest of the world down, and expose other democracies to terrorist attacks aimed at disrupting and influencing their elections.

[WolverineBlue]

And for me the new style election come from russia.

I want some other adivce from the russian present here. because our medias reflect the last elections like a dictatorship lead by Putin. (TV brodcoast closed, candidate disappearing...)

Please, I want to see more clear.

Miles Teg -- here's my American English version of what you said:

As far as I'm concerned, the "new style election" came from Russia.

I'd like to see some opinions from the Russians that post here, because our [French] media made the last [Russian] elections seem like a coup lead by Putin. (TV shut down, candidates disappearing...)

If you would, I'd like to see more argument on this point [OK -- I'm stretching it here ;) ]

[Kilgor]

In case you didnt hear.. the candidate turned up, safe and sound. He just left for a while and didnt bother to tell anyone. He was actually amazed at all the fuss about him.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

they will cut and run from the war on terror.

That's where you don't understand things as they are seen from here in Europe; Iraq is NOT war on terror for most everybody here, it's the US acquiring a lot of oil. Period.

Then why are we spending 18-20 billion dollars to rebuild the country and
suffer casualties and get blamed for being a bully in the process?

Saddam Hussein would have acquired some really great missile technology from North Korea, if the North Koreans hadn't cheated him
royally.

Abu Abbas, support for Palestenian suicide bombers, not to mention thousands upon thousands of innocent deaths.

Lot of good things came out of the war in Iraq. You have to incredibly stubborn not to acknowledge them!

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Also, many Europeans have ignored Saddam's support for Islamic terrorists. He gave money to the families of the homicide bombers in Israel. Of course most Europeans are anti-Israel, so its a non-issue to them.

The terror in Israel is another subject. They are fighting against Israelean occupation and fighting for their own country. The global islamic terror is fighting the principals of western civilizations. Period. Just because they use the same method, terror, doesnt mean they fighting for the same goal.


BTW, did they forget about Abu Abbas? Perhaps they are trying to forget?

And? He was/lived whatever in Bagdad, so what. Atta lived in Hamburg, Germany. So Germany did support the terrorists?

I think you could reasonably ask what is going on in Germany when a court has recently ordered the retrial of the only person convicted in connection with 9/11.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

The spannish voters were pissed off with for going to war in iraq, the terrorist attacks added to that elsewhere such an attack is unlikely to affect the vote in the same way. If it did happen in Oz I think it would be more likely that people would vote conservative as a reaction.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, the whole world is going to draw exactly the same false conclusion : that the Spainese people has voted the government out of power because they blamed it for the terrorist attacks. All the major media are already reporting it as such.

It's inevitable that Al-Qaeda would think of this as a propaganda victory, and they probably think that they could try the same thing again with other countries.

We can't fault the democratic process of another country, but I can't help but feel that the Spanish people has let the rest of the world down, and expose other democracies to terrorist attacks aimed at disrupting and influencing their elections.

I just wonder what the Spanish people will think when Osama starts exacting revenge for the Reconquista. Who will they blame then?

[Resevoir Hogs]

It seems that although there has been a lot done to combat the forces of Islmaic extremists, certain nation's populations are still not accepting the fact that this is war and whether we want it or not it is upon us.
If what has happened in Spain is repeatted in other countries' elections then we will be seeing far worse attacks than 9/11 and the 200 dead in Madrid. Perhaps someday the complacent and pacifist portion of our societies will see the truth about this, however, sadly it seems it will take more horrible realities being brought to our nations.

[ogukuo72]

That's the problem. Any sign of weakness, or that the nation can be pushed around by acts of terror, will be a danger for that nation.

Not just Al-Qadea, but ETA will now be emboldened to commit more acts of terror, now that they believe that the Spanish people can be influenced through terrorism.

[usa320]

Bull****...i think this really shows how serious the European street is about terrorism...blame it on the government, blame it on the media, blame it on the jews, blame it on America, blame it on the economy, ect....ect...

[Lobo]

It's curious this thread about Spanish elections without Spaniards participating!

Well, I think it's evident that the tragic events last Thursday have influenced the elections. But I'm not sure how much the idea of Al Qaed involved in the bombings and not the bad managment of the information, has been decisive.

A van was founded on March 11th at 11:30am. The police found explosive material and detonators of different kinds of the usually used by ETA. It was founded also one tape with Koran verses in Arabic. But two hours later the Interior Minister said that the government was completely sure it had been ETA, and it was an attempt of manipulate the public opinion to say another thing. That day the Prime Minister Aznar called to take part in a massive demostration on Friday under the slogan "With the victims, with the Constitution, agains the terrorism". It's a matter of Spanish politics that the goverment didn't choose "democracy" but the constitution, because the political party ruling the Basque Country regional government has proposed a referendum for almost independence and to change the Spanish constitution. So the goverment was calling for a demostration to support the vicitms and against the Basque nationalism.

I went to the demostration here in Madrid, and many people shouted "¿Quién ha sido?" (Who has been?). I went with a friend and comment "It would be quite stupid been here under an slogan against Basque nationalism and it results at the end it was Al Qaeda".

On Saturday afternoon I read in a conservative on-line newspaper that the idea if Al Qaeda involvement was a leftist conspiration to change the result of the elections. They used a very agressive language. A few hours later the Interior Minister announced that some people were being interrogated by the police, three of them from Morocco. I talked with some friends, and they believe the Goverment had been lying to make people think that ETA was guilty and then get a massive support in the elections. It was known also that the Foreing Affairs minister had given instructions to the Spanish ambassadors to blame ETA and the foreign journalist association complained about the fake reasons the goverment had given to them about ETA's involvement. On Saturday evening some people demostrated in front of Partido Popular's office.

Anyway, I'm sure some polls will be made to know what made people change their mind. But it would be worrying to know that fear made people take a decision. Zapatero promised to bring back our troops in Irak if next June they aren't under UN command. Will be Spanish foreign policy dictated by Al Qaeda? :(

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

What bothers me is that many in the public feel the government was
holding back information.

I think that early in an investigation that is a prudent way to behave.

It seems as though the government got hold of some suspects very
quickly.

Oh well. Vox populi.

[cut]

Bull****...i think this really shows how serious the European street is about terrorism...blame it on the government, blame it on the media, blame it on the jews, blame it on America, blame it on the economy, ect....ect...

you know the "european street" better then europeans? I do hate it when you insisted on making out that we are blaming governments, media, jews (you're real sob if you keep pedalling this one), america and the economy, we are not saying that, stop jumping to conclusions.

Read what Lobo posted. Finally a spannish post.

btw thank you Lobo

[budanski]

Where did you see I wrote or thought that?

The main problem is that most of Europe sees no link between Iraq and terrorism. And they don't look at IED against US forces as terrorism, they see that as resistance to occupation.

The link was obvious in Afghanistan and you have most european countries there.

EARTH TO EUROPE...

Palestinians get Saddam funds (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm)
Saddam Gives Money to Families of Slain Palestinians (http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Mar/03132003/nation_w/37879.asp)
Checks stop coming for Palestinians on Saddam's payroll (http://216.26.163.62/2003/me_iraq_04_15.html)

[ogukuo72]

It's curious this thread about Spanish elections without Spaniards participating!

Well, I think it's evident that the tragic events last Thursday have influenced the elections. But I'm not sure how much the idea of Al Qaed involved in the bombings and not the bad managment of the information, has been decisive.

A van was founded on March 11th at 11:30am. The police found explosive material and detonators of different kinds of the usually used by ETA. It was founded also one tape with Koran verses in Arabic. But two hours later the Interior Minister said that the government was completely sure it had been ETA, and it was an attempt of manipulate the public opinion to say another thing. That day the Prime Minister Aznar called to take part in a massive demostration on Friday under the slogan "With the victims, with the Constitution, agains the terrorism". It's a matter of Spanish politics that the goverment didn't choose "democracy" but the constitution, because the political party ruling the Basque Country regional government has proposed a referendum for almost independence and to change the Spanish constitution. So the goverment was calling for a demostration to support the vicitms and against the Basque nationalism.

I went to the demostration here in Madrid, and many people shouted "¿Quién ha sido?" (Who has been?). I went with a friend and comment "It would be quite stupid been here under an slogan against Basque nationalism and it results at the end it was Al Qaeda".

On Saturday afternoon I read in a conservative on-line newspaper that the idea if Al Qaeda involvement was a leftist conspiration to change the result of the elections. They used a very agressive language. A few hours later the Interior Minister announced that some people were being interrogated by the police, three of them from Morocco. I talked with some friends, and they believe the Goverment had been lying to make people think that ETA was guilty and then get a massive support in the elections. It was known also that the Foreing Affairs minister had given instructions to the Spanish ambassadors to blame ETA and the foreign journalist association complained about the fake reasons the goverment had given to them about ETA's involvement. On Saturday evening some people demostrated in front of Partido Popular's office.

Anyway, I'm sure some polls will be made to know what made people change their mind. But it would be worrying to know that fear made people take a decision. Zapatero promised to bring back our troops in Irak if next June they aren't under UN command. Will be Spanish foreign policy dictated by Al Qaeda? :(

It's sad, but ultimately, it may be irrelevant what the real reasons are for the way the Spanish people vote.

The media all over the world are already tying the defeat of the conservatives to the bombing. Even here in Singapore, it was reported that the Spanish people blamed the ruling party for provoking the terrorists, and inferred that the ruling party had been defeated because of this.

The impression we got is that the Spanish people got frightened and do not want to anger the terrorists any more.

[Lobo]

Well, another point is that more than 90% of Spanish people was against the invasion of Irak (as a poll by the public Sociological Research Center showed) but our former government took the decision to support Bush anyway. One year later 200 working class people paid for it. I talked by phone with my father last evening and he said "Now we can thank Mr. Aznar for those 200 dead people".

As I said before, it would be sad to have our politics influenced by the fear to Al Qaeda, but perhaps many people have reached the same conclusion as my father.

[cut]

Where did you see I wrote or thought that?

The main problem is that most of Europe sees no link between Iraq and terrorism. And they don't look at IED against US forces as terrorism, they see that as resistance to occupation.

The link was obvious in Afghanistan and you have most european countries there.

EARTH TO EUROPE...

Palestinians get Saddam funds (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm)
Saddam Gives Money to Families of Slain Palestinians (http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Mar/03132003/nation_w/37879.asp)
Checks stop coming for Palestinians on Saddam's payroll (http://216.26.163.62/2003/me_iraq_04_15.html)


those are palestinian terrorists not al qaeda, if you really wanted to rid the world of all terrorists who's next ETA? A war in chechnya?


The US is working with pakistan, who aided terrorists that tried to storm the indian parliament in dec 2001. Why such double standards. This prooves that OIF should be considered seperate to the War on Terrorism, which all european countries have join gladly.

[M1A2U2]

The only thing neccesary for the triumpgh of evil if for good men to do nothing. And my friends, I can assure you that the socialists will do nothing. When you do what the terrorists want, the terrorists win. Its not that difficult of a concept. May God help the people of Spain and liberal Europe

[cut]

The only thing neccesary for the triumpgh of evil if for good men to do nothing. And my friends, I can assure you that the socialists will do nothing. When you do what the terrorists want, the terrorists win. Its not that difficult of a concept. May God help the people of Spain and liberal Europe

do nothing? the socialists (social-democrat to be exact Tony Blair) has been your strongest ally you honestly think you can pidgeon-hole a continent?

[IsdatU]

Tony stands out from the herd.

[cut]

Tony stands out from the herd.

I that case Bush doesn't.

[IsdatU]

Tony stands out from the herd.

I that case Bush doesn't.

I only voted for him because he was the lesser of two evils. I will vote for him in 2004 because Kerry is far worse.

I wish that Theodore Roosevelt was still alive to run for office again.

http://www.historyshirt.com/shirt/t-shirt/rvt-a.jpg

[Kilgor]

The only thing neccesary for the triumpgh of evil if for good men to do nothing. And my friends, I can assure you that the socialists will do nothing. When you do what the terrorists want, the terrorists win. Its not that difficult of a concept. May God help the people of Spain and liberal Europe

Sad but true. The left will do nothing and things will just get worse.

[Kilgor]

Imagine if these bastards tried this stuff if stalin or hitler was in power.

They would solve the problem with the stroke of a pen.

[cut]

The only thing neccesary for the triumpgh of evil if for good men to do nothing. And my friends, I can assure you that the socialists will do nothing. When you do what the terrorists want, the terrorists win. Its not that difficult of a concept. May God help the people of Spain and liberal Europe

Sad but true. The left will do nothing and things will just get worse.

terrorists also want you to fight back if you ignore them, they attack (think 9/11) and if you retaliate, then they get the support and the "credibility" they want, even more so if you attack a country that supports them, and multiply that by 100 when you attack another country that doesn't harbour them but is also (in this case) islamic.


The way to deal with this is to kill the terrorists (and only the terrorists!) and make better relations with the coutries that aid terrorists to convince the population that the terrorists are wrong.


Blame the left all you want, I blame the terrorist

[IsdatU]

Imagine if these bastards tried this stuff if stalin or hitler was in power.

They would solve the problem with the stroke of a pen.

Exactly

[cut]

Imagine if these bastards tried this stuff if stalin or hitler was in power.

They would solve the problem with the stroke of a pen.

so are you saying democracy is bad or Stalin and Hitler would have gone after the terrorists with the US?

[Kilgor]

Of course democracy is good.

But i worry it doesnt have the resolve to track down and punish animals like we are dealing with.

[cut]

it will do let them clear their heads a bit first.

[ogukuo72]

Imagine if these bastards tried this stuff if stalin or hitler was in power.

They would solve the problem with the stroke of a pen.

so are you saying democracy is bad or Stalin and Hitler would have gone after the terrorists with the US?

I always liked to quote the example of the hostage crisis in Beirut back in the 80's. When US and UK citizens were kidnapped, the governments were ineffectual in securing their release, and the crisis dragged on for years. Meanwhile, the hostages were kept in inhuman captivity for years. Some were even tortured and killed.

When the terrorists tried the same with Soviet citizens, the KGB sent a team into Beirut and kidnapped the relatives of the terrorists. They were held as counter-hostages and tortured. The terrorists were stunned and they released the Soviet citizens. No Soviet citizens were abducted subsequently.

I don't approve of Stalin or Hitler, but there's something to be said about the naked application of brute force to protect a country's citizens.

[Kilgor]

When the terrorists tried the same with Soviet citizens, the KGB sent a team into Beirut and kidnapped the relatives of the terrorists. They were held as counter-hostages and tortured. The terrorists were stunned and they released the Soviet citizens. No Soviet citizens were abducted subsequently.
.

Thats exactly the sort of thing needed.

"Stanley: War? Who are we at war with?

Gabriel: Anyone who impinges on America's freedom. Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that is becomes unthinkable to attack Americans. "

[martinexsquaddie]

he stroy I heard was the kgb returned there hostages body bit by body bit over a week just to ram home the point. don't **** with commies :roll:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I think that us folks should read Lobo's post again he is correct in saying that the government tried did attempt to manipulate the facts, blaming ETA before any real proof was available to confirm it and still blaming ETA even when the evidence was available to disprove ETA's involvement. People do not like being lied to or misled.

[ogukuo72]

I think that us folks should read Lobo's post again he is correct in saying that the government tried did attempt to manipulate the facts, blaming ETA before any real proof was available to confirm it and still blaming ETA even when the evidence was available to disprove ETA's involvement. People do not like being lied to or misled.

That might be the case, but that's not how the rest of the world sees it. Spainards are seen as voting the conservatives out because they blame them for making Spain a terrorist target by supporting the War on Terrorism.

The fact that the socialists declared that they will pull Spanish troops out of Iraq reinforced this point. It appears that Spain is "bugging out" because of the terrorist attacks.

Spain needs to do some damage control to its image in the rest of the world. Here, there is a lot of sympathy and solidarity with the people of Spain over the past two days. There still is.

But today, there's also a lot of comments about how Spainards seemed to have been terrified into voting out a government strong on fighting terrorists, and electing a government that is likely to compromise.

You need to tell the world why you really voted out the government.

[stuntman]

When the terrorists tried the same with Soviet citizens, the KGB sent a team into Beirut and kidnapped the relatives of the terrorists. They were held as counter-hostages and tortured. The terrorists were stunned and they released the Soviet citizens. No Soviet citizens were abducted subsequently.
.

Thats exactly the sort of thing needed.

"Stanley: War? Who are we at war with?

Gabriel: Anyone who impinges on America's freedom. Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that is becomes unthinkable to attack Americans. "

Swordfish? :lol:

[Kilgor]

yeap ... swordfish.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Al Qaida guessed right that Spain would punk out.

[Miles Teg]

"Stanley: War? Who are we at war with?

Gabriel: Anyone who impinges on America's freedom. Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that is becomes unthinkable to attack Americans. "

GRUNT !

[cold0]

The realty is that the terrorist attack against the Spain was well-timed and met its objective. Now it's clear that Bin laben and his cronies will attack all the states that support the war against the terrorism, especially where the war isn't popular, during election days or other similar events. The message is clear; "Stay out of the war or we will kill our people; if you will stay out and don't support US we don't bother you".
So Al-Qaedja has put out the support of Spain, the question is who the next? Italy, Poland, England?

The sad realty is that we (european) have no more the will to fight...

A sad day for Europe; the world now known that we can blackmail by a bunch of assassins

[rafaelcb]

The war on terrorism was never a problem in Spain. When we sent troops to Afghanistan no one protested. The problem was the invasion of Irak.

People saw that as unjustified and unrelated with terrorism. No WMD were ever found. With warm feelings bout the recent attack, people remembered and decided to vote agains the P.P.

The first words of the socialist leader were against terrorism. I don't think there will be any 'softening' in Spain's fight against terror, quite the opposite. We've been fighting for 35 years.

Regarding our troops in Irak, the promise of the socialist's during the campaign was to withdraw the troops by 30th of June unless there was a UN mandate in Irak. My guess is that there will be some sort of UN mandate in Irak and we will remain.

[SeanAshi]

Spainards are seen as voting the conservatives out because they blame them for making Spain a terrorist target by supporting the War on Terrorism.
Run back to Spain with your tail tucked between your leags. You abandon us, way to go.

[wholagun]

by withdrawing the terrorists win one battle. :roll:

What does this say about the soldiers that lost thier lives in Iraq? Was the price they paid worthless? Explain that one to the families.

[SeanAshi]

They have the ****ing nerve saying that we brought it on to them? bull ****

[Elmo]

Imagine if these bastards tried this stuff if stalin or hitler was in power.

They would solve the problem with the stroke of a pen.

Exactly

Yeah, high-five these beloved leaders?

Spain is a democracy. Spain voted for socialists. Good for them!

What is this appeasment BS? This is not 1930's. This is not a traditional war. There are no nation states waging war. What good is there using military power against any Islamic nation? Why is it so difficult to understand? What good was there in OIF concerning the strugle against international terrorism?

What is needed is a change in attitudes.

[UoUo]

Simple as that: the terroist got what they wanted. :cantbeli:

[Elmo]

by withdrawing the terrorists win one battle. :roll:

What does this say about the soldiers that lost thier lives in Iraq? Was the price they paid worthless? Explain that one to the families.

With this logic you can't admit you made mistake and stick to it no matter what. In war lives are lost, that shouldn't prohibit wars from ending. The government put Spain there and now the government does what it thinks is necessary. The soldiers only do what they are told and they, out of all people, know the risks.

[SeanAshi]

The government put Spain there and now the government does what it thinks is necessary. The soldiers only do what they are told and they, out of all people, know the risks.
Less troops in Iraq when Spain pulls out, it will hurt the Iraqis the most.

[stephane from Paris]

Sorry to come back after a few weeks!


1- As i said several months ago, the OIF wasn't a war against terrorism like OEF is, Bush gang told tons of lies to sells this war!
I said and the bad events give me right, that this war will do islamists terrorists and islamists integrists more powerfull! This war put Iraq in a new lebanon way! Integrists who were under Sadam's tyrany are now the biggest power in Iraq (in shiit part and in the sunnist one too), Kurds are on the way to have their own country (Turkey is very happy of that).
The muslims streets views now Bin Laden like a new Robin Hood!

2- Now that the bad thing is done, the biggest danger should be , for spain and for rest of countries who are in Iraq, to leave the country! This gave to integrists the right to says: "looks how powerfull Western countries are afraid of us! We can use the same way to liberates our oppressed brothers".

3- I said that the countries who will pay the higher price of OIF will be europeans! I'm just surprising that Spain is the first, i thought that mine or UK should be the first due to our importants muslim communities! BTW it's just a question of time, i hopes that europeans security services will be abble to protect us!

4- For french bashers, France was the first european country who fight against islamic terrorism (several bombs in Paris) since 20years, but this war need a secret war which is far more efficient.

As i was in the subway 1hour before a bomb striked other subway several years ago, i understand spannish and i give them all my support.
We are all from Madrid this time!
Regards
stephane

[Groove]

Spanish Citizen will recognise the mistake in some months. They did what the Terrorists wanted.

Big error.

Groove

[Loco]

Only saying that I´m working, and haven´t enough time(plus I´m a bad boy spending paid time in this ;) ) So in resume, I don´t agree with many opinions written here. At home I´ll explain myself widely. It seems me is the only spanish here, well, we´re ordinary people: We hate liars. Aznar government tried to use on thursday the blasts like an electoral resource against rising evindences, now he got what he deserved. I hope G.Bush employs him in Halliburton. Bye.

[Truthsayer]

For a moment there I thought I once again by mistake entered http://www.militaryphotosbyfacistamericansthathateeurosandmuslims.net




Well, not much difference, I guess.



If someone lies to me I will cut my support and might vote for another candidate in protest.

The americans apparently think that lieing to them is quite normal (maybe they are so used to it?) and that voting for the same party every year is the only way to go. Unless the party is anything to the left of right out fascism - then the voters shall be convinced by brute force that they are wrong and should vote for Bush...ops, my mistake, Aznir or anyone more to the right.


I have always voted to the right in my life, but seeing how rabid some americans are on this forum about an election in an other country* that might go the way they like I will only shake my head and notice mankind has learned nothing. The right loosing it's power is a shame, but unfortuanly, understandable, looking back on the lies.


*= Hey, wasn't it you (americans) that complained when we euro-trash even wrote anything in president-election-threads or BushvsKerry-threads? Only goes to show, we euros shouldn't mind what americans think, do or vote into office, but if something happends in the rest of the world...be assured thr americans will have an (ill-informed) opinion and in the face of those people...

Isn't it lovely?


In Short:

The terrorist-attack was probably an direct reply of the spanish involvement in afghanistan (NOT IRAQ) in pounding the **** out of Al Quida and the Talibans.

The lost election was an direct reply from the people for being lied to by their goverment. A hint: Next time, make a stable declaration that 'we will fight terrorism' without trying to pick political points from it by blaming local groups just before an election. It came back and bit them in the arse this time. Unfortuanly.

[cold0]

The Spanish people are all the rights to vote for who they want. Probably the socialists would win anyway. But it's clear the Al-Qaedia had hit the Spain with a clear objective; to pull out the spanish soldiers of Iraqi.

And now the spaniards (generally more determinated than we, italians) will leave the Iraq the 30th June.

It's a terrorism victory. PERIOD.

[aeternum]

Also, many Europeans have ignored Saddam's support for Islamic terrorists. He gave money to the families of the homicide bombers in Israel. Of course most Europeans are anti-Israel, so its a non-issue to them.

The terror in Israel is another subject. They are fighting against Israelean occupation and fighting for their own country. The global islamic terror is fighting the principals of western civilizations. Period. Just because they use the same method, terror, doesnt mean they fighting for the same goal.


BTW, did they forget about Abu Abbas? Perhaps they are trying to forget?

And? He was/lived whatever in Bagdad, so what. Atta lived in Hamburg, Germany. So Germany did support the terrorists?

I think you could reasonably ask what is going on in Germany when a court has recently ordered the retrial of the only person convicted in connection with 9/11.

You should better ask your own country. The US had the evidence we needed, we asked for it, but they didnt hand it over. Reason National security matters.

[aeternum]

they will cut and run from the war on terror.

That's where you don't understand things as they are seen from here in Europe; Iraq is NOT war on terror for most everybody here, it's the US acquiring a lot of oil. Period.

Then why are we spending 18-20 billion dollars to rebuild the country and
suffer casualties and get blamed for being a bully in the process?

Not that you would give the money to the Iraqi and say take it and have fun. The US government spends 18-20 billion dollars to rebuild Iraqi by US companies. Its like putting your money from the left pocket into the right pocket.

[HELEX]

The occupation of Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with the war against Terrorism! It was just about oil, 80% of the spanish population was against this illegal attack.

And Spain goes on with the war against terrorism as before. :bash:

[Loco]

they will cut and run from the war on terror.

That's where you don't understand things as they are seen from here in Europe; Iraq is NOT war on terror for most everybody here, it's the US acquiring a lot of oil. Period.

Then why are we spending 18-20 billion dollars to rebuild the country and
suffer casualties and get blamed for being a bully in the process?

Not that you would give the money to the Iraqi and say take it and have fun. The US government spends 18-20 billion dollars to rebuild Iraqi by US companies. Its like putting your money from the left pocket into the right pocket.
I think american people usually is very well intentionated, and generous, but it´s too very leaned to the use of force in international relationship. In the case of Irak, my americans friends, this is in the way of becoming the biggest scandal of the end of XX century and beginning of XXI. If americans, with the help of us, spanish, have destroyed Irak in the war, we´re commited to rebuild that country. But I don´t agree with the last statement of Aeternum. The american money spent in Irak only benefits some sectors of economy, Defense, in other areas things goes bad. Productiveness is good, but jobs are shrinking. Still I´m astonished that Chenney is vicepresident. He had to resign before Christmas as evidences of corruption in Halliburton are staining him, I don´t talk of being pro-democrat or pro-republican, I´m not american and it´s not my decission, but it´s only a question of corruption, not politics. And corrupts must be in the dungyard.
Btd, although I voted Psoe, I support spanish troops being in Irak till the moment it´s necessary, and I´m sure new government will do that. Even I didn´t like when Spain supported the war and Aznar didn´t send troops to first line, so you see the kind of people Aznar is, only looking for votes. Now, if we go to a war, I want spanish soldiers sharing danger with alllies, but I want too the war is necessary and fair, and it´s not the case of Irak. We´re an american allied, but we were it too before Aznar was president, something many people forgets. And we will be, but we won´t say yes like a sheep, that´s all. No more lies.

[citizen-k]

The occupation of Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with the war against Terrorism! It was just about oil, 80% of the spanish population was against this illegal attack.

And Spain goes on with the war against terrorism as before. :bash:

They better, becasue after this surrender, "terror" will come back to ask for more - much more.

Learn from your experienced friends: The demands and the price for not fulfilling them will only get higher, much higher.

[cut]

Al Qaida guessed right that Spain would punk out.

They told you that did they?

[ogukuo72]

I am a bit skeptical about the argument that the conservatives were voted out because they lied.

This is because the initial news that come out of Spain was that they were voted out because they were blamed for the attacks. Indeed, there was a demonstration in Madrid the day before the elections against the government for making Spain a target for terrorists. Please note that the demonstration was NOT for the government lying.

It was only after a while, when the news sank in, and the negative responses from the rest of the world started to come in, that we start hearing the alternative version that they were voted out because they lied.

There's no doubt that the Americans and the Brits are tough enough for this fight. We in Asia are carrying our own share of the load. The question is : are the European citizens of democracy doing their bit? Or are they soft and decadent free-loaders in this fight?

[Truthsayer]

Strange that 'you' in asia get the news that the demonstration was against the goverment, when we europeans recieved updates that the demonstration was under way, and it was a silent protest against the violence and terrorism.

(Remember that only 1h after the blast several newspapers websites unofficially qouted gov.officials say that it was ETA that was behind the blast.)

[Kellhound]

2- Now that the bad thing is done, the biggest danger should be , for spain and for rest of countries who are in Iraq, to leave the country! This gave to integrists the right to says: "looks how powerfull Western countries are afraid of us! We can use the same way to liberates our oppressed brothers".

3- I said that the countries who will pay the higher price of OIF will be europeans! I'm just surprising that Spain is the first, i thought that mine or UK should be the first due to our importants muslim communities! BTW it's just a question of time, i hopes that europeans security services will be abble to protect us!




I agree, we shouldn't pull out of Iraq, but the new government is determined to unless UN take control.

I don't find surprising we were the first target. There is a large ILLEGAL muslim inmigration into the country, so it's easier for terrorist to enter Spain through stablished human traficking channels, owing to our proximity to Africa.

Besides, Aznar made sure he was seen visibly as a Bush supporter (if that was the reason).


http://www.abc.es/abc/laterales/otro_contenido/iconos_para_destacados_home_abajo/LazoNegro1.gif

By the way, we don't know who was responsible for the bombings yet.
ETA is still there and Hypercor Mall bombing was similar (targetting civilians, denying responsability) althoug in a much lesser scale.

[Loco]

I am a bit skeptical about the argument that the conservatives were voted out because they lied.

This is because the initial news that come out of Spain was that they were voted out because they were blamed for the attacks. Indeed, there was a demonstration in Madrid the day before the elections against the government for making Spain a target for terrorists. Please note that the demonstration was NOT for the government lying.


11 millions spaniards marched on friday, a day after the attack, remembering the deads AND SUPPORTING THE FIGHT of terrorism. In a parallel line, since the first moment, government accused ETA, and usually never accuses Eta when there are deads, the first thing we do is attending the victims and presecuting terrorists: working, not talking. The government issued letters to all foreing correspondents in Madrid accusing Eta and saying they didn´t have to talk of Al Qaeda, our secretary of State, Ana Palacio, gave instructions to all spanish ambassadors to speak about "Eta attacks". Why??? They haven´t to do this, they only had to work silently searching the terrorists, that is what usually they did and all spanish governments did before Aznar, but this time there were elections on Sunday and they tried to use in their benefit. Still the friday, when there were rising evidences of islamics terrorists, Aznar insisted in Eta and he even insulted spanish who talked about that posibility, so in saturday people were anger because of the lies. In friady 2,5 millions people marched across Madrid in silence even many people had doubts about government. Only about 3.000 people demonstrated in front of PP office in Madrid on Saturday(in Spain is forbidden electoral propaganda and demonstrations the eve of elections day) but Aznar government insulted again(we don´t like being insulted!!!) all opposition partys and mass media. Most of people was silent, but on sunday they talked. I was thinking in giving them my vote, but not, they are indign and the farewell of Aznar sadly is the one of a villain, but it wasn´t the first time they tried to lie us.

[Kellhound]

Like i said in some topic related to this, what candidates said about stopping ellectoral campaing was a complete Bravo Sierra.

[gilgoul]

a
Polls predicted safe PP victory. Then went kaboom. PP looses elections. AQ murderers celebrate.... they 've just made a big hole in Western World's fundament which is democracy...

Any comments on lunatical fanatics who hit randomly just for satisfaction that they've killed infidels?

Once again, the fear won.
Poor spaniards, french and other europeans, the price to pay will be either to surrender and become islamists states at a short term, despite the expert, or to wake up too late and pay the heavy price that will extract a real war IN Europe, instead of kicking the ass of the qaeda and other turban ****ers where they dwell, POOR DEMOCRACIES, they forgot the meaning of their name, and became only FEAROCRACIES, where thinking clearly is a crime and expressing non emotionally disturbed views is a crime of at least no PC talking.
I say that, and i come from the left, but not the left of the guys who had their balls cut off before they went to politics.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

My apologies to the mods for being so far off the thread topic, but..





they will cut and run from the war on terror.

That's where you don't understand things as they are seen from here in Europe; Iraq is NOT war on terror for most everybody here, it's the US acquiring a lot of oil. Period.

Then why are we spending 18-20 billion dollars to rebuild the country and
suffer casualties and get blamed for being a bully in the process?

Not that you would give the money to the Iraqi and say take it and have fun. The US government spends 18-20 billion dollars to rebuild Iraqi by US companies. Its like putting your money from the left pocket into the right pocket.


It is true that American companies are benefiting from reconstruction work in Iraq, but...
1. American companies are being pushed to employ as much Iraqi labor as possible.
2. It would be imprudent to just give money without vetting the contractors. Might still be working for the Baathists.

That same money could have been used to great domestic political advantage by the Republicans and GWB.

Why not spend 20 billion on a drug benefit and lock up the senior vote?

Also, I believe all European firms are free to receive subcontracts.

Why doesn't the EU do the same for European contractors? The CPA would likely not object.

Is the EU doing something on a similar scale somewhere else?
(not being sarcastic)

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

a
Polls predicted safe PP victory. Then went kaboom. PP looses elections. AQ murderers celebrate.... they 've just made a big hole in Western World's fundament which is democracy...

Any comments on lunatical fanatics who hit randomly just for satisfaction that they've killed infidels?

Once again, the fear won.
Poor spaniards, french and other europeans, the price to pay will be either to surrender and become islamists states at a short term, despite the expert, or to wake up too late and pay the heavy price that will extract a real war IN Europe, instead of kicking the ass of the qaeda and other turban f*** where they dwell, POOR DEMOCRACIES, they forgot the meaning of their name, and became only FEAROCRACIES, where thinking clearly is a crime and expressing non emotionally disturbed views is a crime of at least no PC talking.
I say that, and i come from the left, but not the left of the guys who had their balls cut off before they went to politics.

In the worst case scenario, Javier Solana might end up sending future EU policy statements to AQ for review. Very bad indeed.

[aeternum]

...
Is the EU doing something on a similar scale somewhere else?
(not being sarcastic)

You mean attacking another country and selling it out to our companies, No we dont!

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

...
Is the EU doing something on a similar scale somewhere else?
(not being sarcastic)

You mean attacking another country and selling it out to our companies, No we dont!

Of course not, what was I thinking...oh yeah..just the billions in debt incurred by that champion of democratic representation Saddam Hussein. Until James Baker showed up to negotiate with the Paris Club, the Iraqis were going to be saddled with debt up to their collective eyeballs, a fair chunk being owed to countries on the European mainland. Last information I had suggested that some countries were unwilling to commit to specific dollar amount. (or Euro amount)

My current understanding is that Europe has pledged a whopping 200 million to the rebuilding of Iraq (out of an estimated need of 100 billion, with a b). Very generous.


Next question is...how much of current Iraqi reconstruction needs are the result of punishing sanctions by the UN and bad leadership by Saddam as opposed to damage caused by US bombing?

[ogukuo72]

I am a bit skeptical about the argument that the conservatives were voted out because they lied.

This is because the initial news that come out of Spain was that they were voted out because they were blamed for the attacks. Indeed, there was a demonstration in Madrid the day before the elections against the government for making Spain a target for terrorists. Please note that the demonstration was NOT for the government lying.


11 millions spaniards marched on friday, a day after the attack, remembering the deads AND SUPPORTING THE FIGHT of terrorism. In a parallel line, since the first moment, government accused ETA, and usually never accuses Eta when there are deads, the first thing we do is attending the victims and presecuting terrorists: working, not talking. The government issued letters to all foreing correspondents in Madrid accusing Eta and saying they didn´t have to talk of Al Qaeda, our secretary of State, Ana Palacio, gave instructions to all spanish ambassadors to speak about "Eta attacks". Why??? They haven´t to do this, they only had to work silently searching the terrorists, that is what usually they did and all spanish governments did before Aznar, but this time there were elections on Sunday and they tried to use in their benefit. Still the friday, when there were rising evidences of islamics terrorists, Aznar insisted in Eta and he even insulted spanish who talked about that posibility, so in saturday people were anger because of the lies. In friady 2,5 millions people marched across Madrid in silence even many people had doubts about government. Only about 3.000 people demonstrated in front of PP office in Madrid on Saturday(in Spain is forbidden electoral propaganda and demonstrations the eve of elections day) but Aznar government insulted again(we don´t like being insulted!!!) all opposition partys and mass media. Most of people was silent, but on sunday they talked. I was thinking in giving them my vote, but not, they are indign and the farewell of Aznar sadly is the one of a villain, but it wasn´t the first time they tried to lie us.

Like I said, this is NOT the message the rest of the world is getting. A lot of us are worried that Spain seemed to have been cowed after one attack. We had thought that Spain was resolute and resilient against terrorists when we saw the millions that demonstrated on Friday.

But the poll results on Sunday sent a completely different message - that Spain is punishing a government whose policies made Spain a terrorist target by being so resolute in its fight against terrorism.

The other democratic governments of the world would have to wonder now: are the people of my country going to punish me for fighting terrorism? Maybe it's best not to do too much against terrorists.

Spainards, you have done a grave disservice to democracies around the world.