Our friend Spain afraid

[seruriermarshal]

NEW SPANISH GOVERNMENT

The bombs in Madrid have cost the Spanish government its hold on power - they have conceded defeat to opposition Socialists in the general elections.

The government of Jose Maria Aznar was judged on its response to the atrocity, in which 200 people died, and its support for the war in Iraq.

Speaking after the victory, Socialist leader Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said his priority is to combat terrorism.

Official results from Spain's general elections show the opposition Socialist Party leading the ruling Popular Party by 43.1% to 37.1%.

The figures are based on results after 77% of the votes were counted, ******* news agency reported.

According to figures, more than 62% of voters turned out for the elections - over seven percent more than the number in the last elections four years ago.

Earlier, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar and his appointed successor, Mariano Rajoy, cast their ballots.

Mr Aznar, who is retiring, stepped into a Madrid polling station with his tearful wife Ana Botella.

Protesters demonstrate against ruling party

As they left, Mr Aznar tried to make a declaration but was drowned out by cries of support from supporters and shouts of "manipulator" from opponents.

Elsewhere in the city, Rajoy faced similar cries from detractors, many of them youths, who yelled "Liar" and "You fascists are terrorists".

The accusation stemmed from confusion over who was behind Thursday's blasts which killed 200 people and wounded 1,500.

The government initially blamed the Basque separatist group Eta but a video claiming the attacks in the name of al-Qaeda has now emerged.

The video, which was being authenticated, said the bombings had been punishment for Spain's support of the US occupation of Iraq.

Up to 7,000 demonstrators took to the streets on Saturday and accused the Popular Party (PP) of lying about who was responsible.

The Spanish electoral commission said it had filed a lawsuit on behalf of the party claiming that the protests constituted a bid to influence voters on the eve of the election.

Eta has repeated its denial of responsibility for the attacks.



:( :( :( :( :(

[seruriermarshal]

The new map of Spain:
For now, Osama only wants the blue parts
http://www.grandpoohbah.net/Grandpoohbah/images/andalus.gif

[mocking_loudly_died]

I like pretty maps.

[seruriermarshal]

I don't think there will be any more bombings in Spain in the near future; al Quaeda got what it wanted, and will now turn to other objectives, such as influencing the U.S. elections. Al-Quaeda is nothing if not smart, and further bombings in Spain right now would be counterproductive for them. For now, they want the Spanish to believe that appeasement works, so that Americans and Brits will also think it works. But make no mistake - bombings will return to Spain when al-Quaeda thinks the time is right.

[IsdatU]

The new map of Spain:
For now, Osama only wants the blue parts
http://www.grandpoohbah.net/Grandpoohbah/images/andalus.gif

The new socialist government will likely open Spain up to Islamic immigration, so you might want to paint the whole map blue for the next century.

[seruriermarshal]

Osama Country ?

[cut]

The new socialist government will likely open Spain up to Islamic immigration, so you might want to paint the whole map blue for the next century.

not another one of you :roll:

let me guess islamic hordes? islamification?

[seruriermarshal]

I just read on another thread that Spain will remove their troops from Iraq or hinted at it at least.

[Jackel]

They people of Spain voted RED today, what eles can you say.

[cut]

I just read on another thread that Spain will remove their troops from Iraq or hinted at it at least.

they said that before the election, but I don't know if it was before the bombs, either way they'll keep their troops in afghsanistan the real war on terror

[seruriermarshal]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

[M1A2U2]

So i guess the terrorists have won. They have achieved their goal of getting troops out of Iraq. Now you see why we associate appeasers with terrorists.

[cut]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

[cut]

So i guess the terrorists have won. They have achieved their goal of getting troops out of Iraq. Now you see why we associate appeasers with terrorists.

and now you see why appeasers associate you with terrorist attacks

[seruriermarshal]

I just read on another thread that Spain will remove their troops from Iraq or hinted at it at least.

they said that before the election, but I don't know if it was before the bombs, either way they'll keep their troops in afghsanistan the real war on terror

Their army will go home from world , Because Spain people worry ( safe ) .

[mocking_loudly_died]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

I reached this conclusion as well.

[seruriermarshal]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

You likely Islamic ?

[Gordon]

yeh, definitely a dumbass.

[seruriermarshal]

So i guess the terrorists have won. They have achieved their goal of getting troops out of Iraq. Now you see why we associate appeasers with terrorists.


Yes , they win , in Spain !


:( :( :( :( :(

[cut]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

You likely Islamic ?

no I'm not

[cut]

So i guess the terrorists have won. They have achieved their goal of getting troops out of Iraq. Now you see why we associate appeasers with terrorists.


Yes , they win , in Spain !


:( :( :( :( :(

dumbass it is then

[mocking_loudly_died]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

You likely Islamic ?

Oh go away, this is boring.
You might as well manufacture a diatribe about strawberry flavored ice-cream destabilizing the world.
No matter what nonsense you type its all just disposable pockets of inane hate.

Now stop interrupting my apathy.

[seruriermarshal]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

You likely Islamic ?

Oh go away, this is boring.
You might as well manufacture a diatribe about strawberry flavored ice-cream destabilizing the world.
No matter what nonsense you type its all just disposable pockets of inane hate.

Now stop interrupting my apathy.


My friend , Maybe you don't know Osama is a danger .

[cut]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

You likely Islamic ?

Oh go away, this is boring.
You might as well manufacture a diatribe about strawberry flavored ice-cream destabilizing the world.
No matter what nonsense you type its all just disposable pockets of inane hate.

Now stop interrupting my apathy.


My friend , Maybe you don't know Osama is a danger .

:cantbeli:

[seruriermarshal]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

You likely Islamic ?

Oh go away, this is boring.
You might as well manufacture a diatribe about strawberry flavored ice-cream destabilizing the world.
No matter what nonsense you type its all just disposable pockets of inane hate.

Now stop interrupting my apathy.




My friend , Maybe you don't know Osama is a danger .

:cantbeli:
:bash:

[fantassin]

Islamification of Spain ....You so don't have a clue...

A few years ago, a moslem immigrant killed a Spanish girl; the spanish population of Andalucia went on a rampage and attacked moslems on sight in the streets and burned down their slums...

Your views are so limited and so totally lack cultural and political background; you read "socialist" and then your brains shut down and see a communist foaming at the mouth ready to burn down churches.

Inform yourself about Spain before writing such stupidities.

[IsdatU]

The world just saw Spain "punk out" to the muslim terrorists.

[fantassin]

Yes, keep on giving lessons from a California that speaks more Spanish than English and where Gay people are getting married.

[seruriermarshal]

Islamification of Spain ....You so don't have a clue...

A few years ago, a moslem immigrant killed a Spanish girl; the spanish population of Andalucia went on a rampage and attacked moslems on sight in the streets and burned down their slums...

Your views are so limited and so totally lack cultural and political background; you read "socialist" and then your brains shut down and see a communist foaming at the mouth ready to burn down churches.

Inform yourself about Spain before writing such stupidities.

They kill more people , not only a Spanish girl , In WWII German army have moslem soldier .

[Kilgor]

Oh go away, this is boring.
You might as well manufacture a diatribe about strawberry flavored ice-cream destabilizing the world.
.

Lets talk about the girl in your avatar :P

[Loco]

It´s the **** hitting the fan against Spain now???
I only wish all you were here on friday, the day after. Millions of people demonstrated quietly and firmly, we weren´t afraid of terrorist, we know them before many people born in Texas or Wroclaw were born. The response inmediately after tha blast was perfect by volunteers, policeman, firefighters and hospitals. We recieved offers of helping of many countries that we didn´t need at last, due the fact that like I mentioned before, sadly we´ve the habit of dealing with victims and we´re prepared. 1/3 of victims are inmigrants, many of them illegals, no problem, government granted to all them or their families the spanish nationality and passport and all future assistance like anyother spanish. We aren´t afraind but we´re very decided to find the truth, a thing our government tried to hidden us at first. I simply demand our government the truth, as an elector, and I demand too to G.W.Bush the truth about his aknowledgment before the war in Irak. I only hope americans electors do the same. Really, I´m very indignated about everything in this matter every day more. Those bull**** of lies about the hidden weapons in Irak and so. Ben Ladden is a person, and Saddam Hussein is a very different person, Afghanistan yes, Irak not. there wasn´t any link between them. The way Bush, Blair and Aznar lied about proves of hidden weapons is similiar to the way Hussein lied to his people. Only difference is we live in democracy. We´ve thrown scum and liers to the dungyard, that´s all. And of course, we are and we will fight against terrorism and freedom, this don´t mean invading innocent countries, and we will honor our compromises. Only thing Bush have to do is no more despising UN.

[Truthsayer]

Loco>> Don't take it personally. The americans on this board will always have a firm view on everything, even the things they have no grasp about. It's their way of sociaty. Just be thankfull the Una-bomber and other terrorist wasn't spanish or they might see it as a reason the invade and 'correct the situation'.

Much easier to invade other countries to 'correct things' then doing something about their own ****ed up country.


Bring it on.

[Elmo]

Viva El Loco!

[Loco]

Islamification of Spain ....You so don't have a clue...

A few years ago, a moslem immigrant killed a Spanish girl; the spanish population of Andalucia went on a rampage and attacked moslems on sight in the streets and burned down their slums...

Your views are so limited and so totally lack cultural and political background; you read "socialist" and then your brains shut down and see a communist foaming at the mouth ready to burn down churches.

Inform yourself about Spain before writing such stupidities.
You´re talking of the town El Ejido, in Almeria, with a population of 20.000 people. It wasn´t exactly like you said. This town have thousans of inmigrants, and moors aren´t the biggest community of inmigrants: there are many southamericans, people from east europe(Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Rumania and Bulgaria) and from black Africa, all of them working hard and living peacefully integrated with El Ejido people. It doesn´t care to me if this sounds racist or islamophobic or what, but in El Ejido, a little town, in a few time many girls were raped, some of them retarded girls, all the abussers were moors. 2 owner of farms were killed by 2 moors because laboral problems, and just after that a woman was killed with a knife by another moor, in this case it seems as if the man got crazy, but people in El Ejido said enough is enough. So people attacked moor workers, it was unfair of course, but they were outraged, no other foreing community was attacked, even the government of the province, like a french department, was attacked when he tried to stop people. At the end of that, nobody was killed nor injured seriously, many people was beaten and afraid of course, and some little shops owned by muslims were burnt. All reparations were done and many people was judged and condemned and I agree with that.

[Haiw]

The world just saw Spain "punk out" to the muslim terrorists.
No they didn't... It's just that the people ALREADY WERE AGAINST GOING TO IRAQ! If they were pro-Iraq and if Aznar had listened to his people, they propably wouldn't have reacted to the bombing like this. If the Aznar had listened to his people that were against the war, and the bombing would still have occured, it might have even swayed the opinion of the Spanish to actually GO to Iraq.

Oh, and the war in Iraq doesn't have **** to do with the war on terror or against Al-Qaeda...

[BlackRain]

I hope that the ETA does not take a note from the terrorist bombing affect on the new Socialists government decision to remove troops from Iraq.

Correlation observed: Bomb civilians and get the Spanish government to do something like give special autonomy to the Basques.

The Socialist can pull troops from Iraq, it is their right. However, to make the announcement so close to the day of loss looks like captitulation to the terrorists and weakness.

I know this post may upset some of you Socialists. But, it would be the same for any new government assuming power and doing the same thing. Tactical error.

[HELEX]

Just a small hint, 80% of the spanish Population was against the war for oil in Iraq. That was long BEFORE these Bombs exploded...

They are still in the war against terrorism, as before. :bash:

[Chasseur_Alpin]

Spain wants to remove troops only in June.
no?

[Shadow]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

You likely Islamic ?

Oh go away, this is boring.
You might as well manufacture a diatribe about strawberry flavored ice-cream destabilizing the world.
No matter what nonsense you type its all just disposable pockets of inane hate.

Now stop interrupting my apathy.


My friend , Maybe you don't know Osama is a danger .

:cantbeli:

Mhh, he sounds like Sixgun II.;)

[Luxembourger]

WE are in the reconstruction phase of IRAQ now , rebuilding the country , if we were still in the INVASION phase in IRAQ I would have understood that the new gov in SPain had pulled back the troops .

But now the major combat operations ( the main invasion ) are over and spanish troops helped in IRaq to rebuild the country,,,,when their mandate is over they are pulled out ....I don t agree on that..

It seems that the new government does not want to help rebuild IRAQ and to give the iraqi people hope .

but whatsoever, that s democracy and we have to respect the rules .

PS : I rather would have liked the conservative party , but I must admit that it s a bit their fault too that they lost , they shouldn t have rushed to the conclusion the first day it s ETa and tell their ambassadors to widespread the theory that it was ETA.

[tony6]

I wonder who will replace Spanish soldiers on their place in Iraq (if they really decide to withdraw them). Some country will have to bring those 1300 soldiers - Poland again? Ukraine?
I hope it's only some post-election political bull****.

[fdt]

Blood has not dried yet in Madrid, as few of us begun to accuse and to mock the Spanish people. We will see how the new spanish govt will deal the issue. Too early to judge. I still hope they won't yield so easily as many predicts.

IMHO doing what the AQ wants, after such a tragedy is a.... tragedy. No more no less.

I understand well that peoiple mainly have voted for PSOE because they felt deceived by PP govt telling lies about ETA's sure involvement, but if the PSOE govt will do what it promised, the whole world (including terrorosts) will get the message that terrorism works. No matter what were the motives of the Spainyards voting, the possible effect will be disastrous. Did they really wanted new govt to do exactly what terrorists wanted?

Zapatero instead of babbling about withdrawal right after the elections results announcement, he should make a short walk to the place of carnage and.... think. Bad becomes worse I hope it will not turn into a nightmare...

take care all

[XASA]

Maybe ...... they want to become the Islamic country people .

maybe...you're a dumbass

You likely Islamic ?

Oh go away, this is boring.
You might as well manufacture a diatribe about strawberry flavored ice-cream destabilizing the world.
No matter what nonsense you type its all just disposable pockets of inane hate.

Now stop interrupting my apathy.


My friend , Maybe you don't know Osama is a danger .

:cantbeli:

Mhh, he sounds like Sixgun II.;)

Coincidental? Perhaps. If it is not him it certainly sounds like a clone.

From Sixgun aka Osama aka Hawke's mea culpa, one gets the feeling he needs the forum more than the forum needs him. Funny how Sixgun aka Hawke aka Osama went out like a whining bitch. He could talk the talk but couldn't walk the walk. ;)

Spain's voters have spoken. That is called democracy, which is what we are supposedly fighting for. To call it anything else because one disagrees with the Socialist Party and their plans to reassess Spain's involvement in Iraq is not only un-American but it is also sour grapes.

[Loco]

I hope that the ETA does not take a note from the terrorist bombing affect on the new Socialists government decision to remove troops from Iraq.

Correlation observed: Bomb civilians and get the Spanish government to do something like give special autonomy to the Basques.


I´m basque. Eta has killed 800 people before thursday, mostly civilians, they have bombed hotels, metroplitan trains, streets, cafes, restaurants, streets, kidnapped and tortured. Ten days ago, 2 Eta terrorist were caught near Madrid with a van loaded with 500 kilos of titadine for blowing up Chamartin railway station(North Madrid, the bombed stations and trains by Al Qaea were in South east Madrid) I´ve seen burnt corps in the street when I was a child, and I´m not terrified nor terrorists decided my vote. Eta is being defeated, last year they only could killed 4 people because they were stopped. So spanish are fighting terrorists and we´re winning using clean ways. I think many countries, Israel for being clear, could learn of us. The question is being well informed and to no opinate if you aren´t. In Basque Country there are nationalist partys, which are ruling the country, and are legal partys, and are pro-spanish partys(50% of population), and are the terrorists. The lies of Aznar on thursday and saturday didn´t help in the fight against Eta in any way. It´s terrible what he has done. Eta never will win with force, that it´s clear.
And just now I come back to work, I want to be the good citizen I suppose I am ;)

[cut]

I hope that the ETA does not take a note from the terrorist bombing affect on the new Socialists government decision to remove troops from Iraq.

Correlation observed: Bomb civilians and get the Spanish government to do something like give special autonomy to the Basques.


I´m basque. Eta has killed 800 people before thursday, mostly civilians, they have bombed hotels, metroplitan trains, streets, cafes, restaurants, streets, kidnapped and tortured. Ten days ago, 2 Eta terrorist were caught near Madrid with a van loaded with 500 kilos of titadine for blowing up Chamartin railway station(North Madrid, the bombed stations and trains by Al Qaea were in South east Madrid) I´ve seen burnt corps in the street when I was a child, and I´m not terrified nor terrorists decided my vote. Eta is being defeated, last year they only could killed 4 people because they were stopped. So spanish are fighting terrorists and we´re winning using clean ways. I think many countries, Israel for being clear, could learn of us. The question is being well informed and to no opinate if you aren´t. In Basque Country there are nationalist partys, which are ruling the country, and are legal partys, and are pro-spanish partys(50% of population), and are the terrorists. The lies of Aznar on thursday and saturday didn´t help in the fight against Eta in any way. It´s terrible what he has done. Eta never will win with force, that it´s clear.
And just now I come back to work, I want to be the good citizen I suppose I am ;)

Finally, someone who actually knows what he's talking about.

[aeternum]

Islamification of Spain ....You so don't have a clue...

A few years ago, a moslem immigrant killed a Spanish girl; the spanish population of Andalucia went on a rampage and attacked moslems on sight in the streets and burned down their slums...

Your views are so limited and so totally lack cultural and political background; you read "socialist" and then your brains shut down and see a communist foaming at the mouth ready to burn down churches.

Inform yourself about Spain before writing such stupidities.

They kill more people , not only a Spanish girl , In WWII German army have moslem soldier .
Germany also hat around 150.000 jewish soldiers. Point?

[MARINO]

Spain have lost , Spaniards are cowards we have choose dishonnour. Socialist will be in coalition with separatist, they have justifie is lamic terrorism, we are a real ****, today is not a day to be proud of being spanish.

[cut]

Spain have lost , Spaniards are cowards we have choose dishonnour. Socialist will be in coalition with separatist, they have justifie is lamic terrorism, we are a real ****, today is not a day to be proud of being spanish.

Keep your national pride, I hate people who don't.

Just because you don't like the socialists doesn't mean it's shameful to be spanish

[MARINO]

Is not cause i hate socialist i cause, we don't do our work and we act like cowards

[Loco]

Spain have lost , Spaniards are cowards we have choose dishonnour. Socialist will be in coalition with separatist, they have justifie is lamic terrorism, we are a real ****, today is not a day to be proud of being spanish.
Marino, talk only about yourself, thundering words and lies are out of question here. Spanish people are better that Aznar, he doesn´t deserve us. I respect people with other opinions than mine, I could vote PP before thursday, even after the bombs, but not after the lies. And you, my friend, are insulting even if you don´t realize spanish people in the way you describ socialiest. And about separatist(do you talk about PNV???) justifiying islamic terrorism, is pure and plain another lie more. PNV, which I don´t think in anyway Zapatero ask them for making a coalition, are a conservative, christian and righ oriented party, traditionally with good contacts in USA, btw. And let me tell you that the lies of Aznar about Eta didn´t help here in anyway for having a better situation here, in the north.

[cut]

Is not cause i hate socialist i cause, we don't do our work and we act like cowards

The new government is keeping troops in Afghanistan right? that is the real war on terror.

Even if they do pull out of Iraq they have not given up on the fight against terrorists.

[Javehn]

Loco , with all do respect i have this days for Spanish people , and for their greaf , you shouldn't teach any one , that we should learn to deal terrorism from you . It is very hearts for me to say that , and perhaps it's even wrong from my side to say that those days . But Spain have just suffered it's first serious punch of terror , and backed up .

When a naighbour of mine punch me in the face , and try to still my car , because i have parked in his parking lot , so , i should - Blame myself that i am deserved to get punched , and let him still my car ??


You know , no matter what someone will step on this world , he will always step on someone's tows . that's a simple thruth . You step to right , you wil piss this one up , you step to the left , you piss this one up . So at list , the right thing to do is to stand on your own , and not to back up at once , when someone threatens your position .

[scoone]

Is not cause i hate socialist i cause, we don't do our work and we act like cowards

We are not acting like cowards (perhaps like idiots ) but I'm still proud of being Spanish.Democracy has spoken in the elections. If the main part of the country wanted a socialist govt., well , that's the way democracy works. Aznar's govt. made a few bad movements so they have paid for them.Anyway, how can you say what's going to happen in Spain in the future months?
Zapatero wants a UN command to keep the troops in Irak.But, I must remember you that during the last socialist rule in Spain, we supported the first Irak war and we sent warships.Time has passed since those days, and a lot of things changed ( a lot of them still the same I reckon) but, time will tell.I'll never feel any shame of being spanish or galician. that's something that I learned while I was a kid living in Scotland. Feel proud of your country and the land you step. We are perhaps idiots for removing the troops from Irak. But, make it clear one thing: We are against terrorism.

[scoone]

The new map of Spain:
For now, Osama only wants the blue parts
http://www.grandpoohbah.net/Grandpoohbah/images/andalus.gif

hey I was born in Santiago up here in the NW.

[Truthsayer]

But Spain have just suffered it's first serious punch of terror , and backed up .

You have been living under a rock these last decades?

[mack pl]

I wonder who will replace Spanish soldiers on their place in Iraq (if they really decide to withdraw them). Some country will have to bring those 1300 soldiers - Poland again? Ukraine?
I hope it's only some post-election political bull****.I dont think Poland and Ukraine could do that(money,money,money).Regards :|

[Old300]

Aznar's Popular Party was ahead in the polls until last week's bombing. Nor were polls "trending away" from the PP. The terrorists, whoever they are, were able to bring about the defeat of a stridently anti-terrorist European government.

That should scare everyone in these forums today: regardless of what you thought about the Iraq war or any other Bush-led endeavor, the fact that terrorism changed a major Western government is shocking and terrifying.

I'd also like to note that those Spaniards who changed their votes in the final days were wrong: September 11 happened before the War on Terror (as did the Cole bombing, the first WTC bombing, etc.); Bali happened before Iraq; Turkey was opposed to the Iraq war, yet they lost hundreds in bombings last year; likewise Morocco. And let's not forget that terrorists blew-up a French tanker off the coast of Yemen and assassinated a busload of French submarine engineers in Pakistan.

Perhaps Spain was targeted because of Spain's membership in the Coalition of the Willing. But perhaps not: as that map on the first page of this thread shows, the terrorists' grievances are long and, at least partly, totally stark raving mad. They want to kill us not because we want to kill them, but because, simply, we exist.

I am so sorry that so many Spaniards were killed and injured last week. God be with all of them and their families. But the proper response to terrorist madness would have been, in my opinion at least, to stand up even taller, and to shoot even straighter.

[tony6]

I dont think Poland and Ukraine could do that(money,money,money).Regards
Yeah but if Uncle Sam pays...
:D

[Javehn]

But Spain have just suffered it's first serious punch of terror , and backed up .

You have been living under a rock these last decades?



No , i live in the house with computer , and ussually on those touchy subjects people check before they post . So i have checked the percentage of bombing , done by ETA in spain . Over the population of almost 40,000,000 (40 milion) people in Spain , there are 400 ETA terrorists in jail . Here is some site about ETA : http://www.mir.es/oris/infoeta/indexin.htm . 800 terror victims from 1968 until today , when 400 of them are members of police and army ?? This is not the real intencity of terror , i am very sorry to say this to you . With all do respect to Spanish people , that would disagree with me , i live in country where the terror hits in civilians from a first place oin civilians in much larger scales then that . And my country is ten times smaller in it's population and boundaries . Again , i am very sorry before the people of Spain , i no meen disrespect , my condolences to the dead , may they rest in peace .

Whoever will see my first post on the subject , will understand why i posted it , and this one . Again , i mean no disrespect . This post is pointed to Truthsayer and him alone .

[Truthsayer]

The UNA-bomber didn't kill many, nor the bombing in oklahoma [using your logic] neither did the letters to congress...guess they are no threats either.

[Loco]

Loco , with all do respect i have this days for Spanish people , and for their greaf , you shouldn't teach any one , that we should learn to deal terrorism from you . It is very hearts for me to say that , and perhaps it's even wrong from my side to say that those days . But Spain have just suffered it's first serious punch of terror , and backed up .

When a naighbour of mine punch me in the face , and try to still my car , because i have parked in his parking lot , so , i should - Blame myself that i am deserved to get punched , and let him still my car ??


You know , no matter what someone will step on this world , he will always step on someone's tows . that's a simple thruth . You step to right , you wil piss this one up , you step to the left , you piss this one up . So at list , the right thing to do is to stand on your own , and not to back up at once , when someone threatens your position .
If you don´t like what I´ve said, I´m sorry, but I won´t delete my words. They were isrealies politicians who talked to us last weekend about what we´ve to do and were they who pretended to teach us, and the most important, tried to being us "comprehensive" with many things they do.
If someone beat me, I´ll tray to stop first his fist first of all, and if necessary, I´ll beat him because I´m prepared and I´m right, but I won´t beat the son of my agressor as a revenge, because revenge is the behaviour of an no-civilizated society, and they aren´t my words but the words of a greek philosophe of 2.500 years ago, and at the end is better for me, because the son won´t be in the future and other agressor. Btw you don´t keep out of teaching everyone about everything about terror. There is life far away of your navel, and neither you nor the isrealies have the monopoly of suffering. We´ve had many terrorists attacks before 11-M since the 60´s, not only from Eta. Eta alone has killed more than 800 people, mostly civilians and in democracy, they even tried to provocate military men to do a coup d´etat in 1981 by killing generals. If you add the deads caused by other spanish groups like Grapo or Terra Lliure in the recent past, we have figures of over 1.000 deads. In the 80´s, a middle east group killed in the restaurant El Descanso(The Rest, ironic name) more that 30 people, I don´t know if they were islamics or simply revolutionaries arab terrorist, why? The restaurant was near the base of Torrejón de Ardoz, by then an american base, but all deads were spanish. Your people has assesinated in Spain too, and they did IN MY HOME what we don´t tolerate our policemen to do. There were many other deads caused by armenians or kurds, I don´t remember, who attacked turkish air lines agencys in Madrid killing both spanish and turkish. We know by far what is terrorism before you were born, we know what is dictatorship and what is democracy. Eta in some sense is a sour son of dictatorship, and other damned heritance of Franco, but we are defeating them without causing innocent victims, that´s what I mean. Sure Isreael can teach us a lot about organizing and armoured division or a parachutist brigade, they helped us to reorganize our inteligence service, but in question of fightin terrorism and dealing with civilian people, you can´t teach us nothing and you aren´t a good example, I´m sorry if you don´t like, but things are like this.
Btw, Haaretz still insists in calling the terrorist group Eta as a "separatist" group. Separatists are legal here, and they are the ones in the government of Euskadi, Eta is not separatist but terrorists. There are mistaken people everywhere, even in Israel.

[mack pl]

I dont think Poland and Ukraine could do that(money,money,money).Regards
Yeah but if Uncle Sam pays...
:DAż tak bym w to nie wierzył ;)(i dont belive that so much)

[Javehn]

The UNA-bomber didn't kill many, nor the bombing in oklahoma [using your logic] neither did the letters to congress...guess they are no threats either.

Kill me , and i will not be able to understand how people here like to twist things that have been said , and make one look like idiot .
I am just saying , that there is a different between criminal activities like you mentioned before , and real terror . Terror from the word terror , something that is supposed to shake the entire country when it is done .
And please , don't twist my words any more . I feel incomfortable as it is to post on this matter .

[Loco]

I tried to edit and correct the ortographic faults I wrote before, but I couldn´t. Anyway, I write what I think.

[Kellhound]

I don't think there will be any more bombings in Spain in the near future; al Quaeda got what it wanted, and will now turn to other objectives, such as influencing the U.S. elections. Al-Quaeda is nothing if not smart, and further bombings in Spain right now would be counterproductive for them. For now, they want the Spanish to believe that appeasement works, so that Americans and Brits will also think it works. But make no mistake - bombings will return to Spain when al-Quaeda thinks the time is right.

Sadly, i think you are right.
When they think a new masacre is needed, they'll do it again, and if people thinks we are safe because Spain doesn't support Bush anymore, they are in for a bigger surprise.

I know, i'm a little pessimistic, but i'm an infantryman.

[Truthsayer]

Javehn>> Then stop making a fool out of ourself by claiming the ETA-attacks isn't terrorist-attacks.

Both spanish people and us nordic tourists have been affected, so we know more then you in this matter.

[scoone]

Aznar's Popular Party was ahead in the polls until last week's bombing. Nor were polls "trending away" from the PP. The terrorists, whoever they are, were able to bring about the defeat of a stridently anti-terrorist European government.

The goverment defeated itself, they didn't give all the information to te people.They have lost not just because of the bomb attacks, they had a lot of problems in Spain, and do you know why? Because they didn't know the meaning of the word dialogue.As Loco said in other post, our former president Aznar didn't have any kind of touch to deal with the basque problem. They had a very radical position in every political side. They did want they wanted for the last 4 years. They didn't pay attention to the demonstration against he war or against the University reform law. They terrorists didn't win the elections, the agressive potilics of the Aznar govt. gave the key to the socialist rule.



But the proper response to terrorist madness would have been, in my opinion at least, to stand up even taller, and to shoot even straighter

May I ask how? when? ... Sending more troops into Irak perhaps?

[Javehn]

Then Loco , again i am very sorry to say , but if you think like that , maybe perhaps because of people like you Spain have just backed up . Sorry to say that to you , but you ignored me . I just hope that many people with vision of your will wake up soon , and realise you have been beaten by the darkest evil it can get . And you shaked hands with it . . It's your **** , and swim in it , if you don't want to listen to any one . Why should i care then . I have the bigest simpathy for the tradegy of Spain , and for it's previous encounters , but you don't want to even hear that . I am out of here .

P.S : My real sorries for the people of Spain who had offended from my posts . I didn't had any meaning of this sort . My posts were as a matter of concern about you , from my side . So , again , forgive me if i have offended someone in my posts .

[Loco]

Then Loco , again i am very sorry to say , but if you think like that , maybe perhaps because of people like you Spain have just backed up . Sorry to say that to you , but you ignored me . I just hope that many people with vision of your will wake up soon , and realise you have been beaten by the darkest evil it can get . And you shaked hands with it . . It's your **** , and swim in it , if you don't want to listen to any one . Why should i care then . I have the bigest simpathy for the tradegy of Spain , and for it's previous encounters , but you don't want to even hear that . I am out of here .
You´re free to do what you want. I like to learn, but I don´t like to be given lesson I didn´t ask for. And I´m stand up, I´ve never been fallen, you are not the only man here, don´t forget. Btw, remember people of Haaretz ETA are terrorists, not separatist.

[Old300]

Aznar's Popular Party was ahead in the polls until last week's bombing. Nor were polls "trending away" from the PP. The terrorists, whoever they are, were able to bring about the defeat of a stridently anti-terrorist European government.

The goverment defeated itself, they didn't give all the information to te people.They have lost not just because of the bomb attacks, they had a lot of problems in Spain, and do you know why? Because they didn't know the meaning of the word dialogue.As Loco said in other post, our former president Aznar didn't have any kind of touch to deal with the basque problem. They had a very radical position in every political side. They did want they wanted for the last 4 years. They didn't pay attention to the demonstration against he war or against the University reform law. They terrorists didn't win the elections, the agressive potilics of the Aznar govt. gave the key to the socialist rule.



But the proper response to terrorist madness would have been, in my opinion at least, to stand up even taller, and to shoot even straighter

May I ask how? when? ... Sending more troops into Irak perhaps?

Scoone, I didn't analyze any of Aznar's policy positions. I simply noted a fact: that he was winning before the bombing and that he lost after it.

Spain could have reacted to terror not by rewarding it - i.e. electing a government that will be softer on it - but by denouncing it - i.e. more than marching in silence, they could have told terrorists that their deeds would not affect their votes or views. The fact that terrorists did so affect them will embolden madmen throughout Europe.

[scoone]

Old300 Who said that the new goverment is going to be softer with terrorists?
And they were not winning , they had a lot of home problems as I have pointed before.

[Seoulstriker]

Old300 Who said that the new goverment is going to be softer with terrorists?
And they were not winning , they had a lot of home problems as I have pointed before.

spain is withdrawing from iraq?

[scoone]

Old300 Who said that the new goverment is going to be softer with terrorists?
And they were not winning , they had a lot of home problems as I have pointed before.

spain is withdrawing from iraq?

Don't Know, do you? has anybody signed the orders to withdraw?

[Old300]

Scoone, this really isn't a difficult concept to grasp: your Prime Minister's party was leading the various opposition parties in opinion polls right up until the train bombing. Regardless of whether you and millions of other Spaniards disagreed with his party on certain issues, he was almost certainly going to win the election (http://www.euractiv.com/cgi-bin/cgint.exe?204&OIDN=1507342).

And yes, I think it's safe to say that the PSOE will be softer on terrorists. They were highly criticial of the PP's tough policies on ETA. And they do not want your country to take part in military operations that lack explicit UN approval. I know that the latter position doesn't necessarily mean that Spain will be softer on terror, but surely that will be its effect: these days people pretend that Afghanistan is and was some kind of pure multilateral anti-terrorist operation; but they forget that we invaded Afghanistan without UN approval, with a coalition much smaller than the one we had in Iraq, and that there was massive international opposition to the campaign (remember the nonsense about the "Arab Street" rising up, quagmire, regional destabilization, and all the rest of it in the late autumn of 2001?).

[vmpsmII]

I don't know what the **** that map is supposed to be, the Iberian peninsula isn't just Spain you know!

I hope my country as a say in that matter because I've been a portuguese all my life and **** them if I am going to give away all the south of my nation no matter how many bombs they are planing to blow here!!

[fdt]

I know, i'm a little pessimistic, but i'm an infantryman.Infantry has always plenty of good reasons to be pessimistic. :D

[scoone]

Scoone, this really isn't a difficult concept to grasp: your Prime Minister's party was leading the various opposition parties in opinion polls right up until the train bombing. Regardless of whether you and millions of other Spaniards disagreed with his party on certain issues, he was almost certainly going to win the election (http://www.euractiv.com/cgi-bin/cgint.exe?204&OIDN=1507342).

And yes, I think it's safe to say that the PSOE will be softer on terrorists. They were highly criticial of the PP's tough policies on ETA. And they do not want your country to take part in military operations that lack explicit UN approval. I know that the latter position doesn't necessarily mean that Spain will be softer on terror, but surely that will be its effect: these days people pretend that Afghanistan is and was some kind of pure multilateral anti-terrorist operation; but they forget that we invaded Afghanistan without UN approval, with a coalition much smaller than the one we had in Iraq, and that there was massive international opposition to the campaign (remember the nonsense about the "Arab Street" rising up, quagmire, regional destabilization, and all the rest of it in the late autumn of 2001?).

I don't know Old300, I just don't know , it's perhaps too early to point anything, time will tell. But let me say somthing about the ETA topic: During the socialist rule they fought hard against ETA.The PP (that's Aznar´s party) knocked down a very important man of the Civil Guard Corps who played an essencial role against the terrorists as soon as the got into the goverment. His name is Galindo , he was sent into prison because they said that during the socialist era he fought a dirty war on terrorism.He was brave, he was a general in the Basque Country , he rised the best information service ever.He was victim of a treason by the right wing party. He was left alone.
Second: the people of Spain backed up the Afghanistan invasion. The problem came with the Irak invasion.

This lead me to 3 things:
1.- Socialist would face terrorism.
2.-The Irak issue: most of the population didn't support it ( I supported , I support the troops sent to Irak to help the US).
3.-Politics is bull****

[scoone]

And I forgot. We are not going to hand over any part of our country.The posted map shows the Penninsula during the Arab wars, not the 21th centurymap.

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshells/europe/spain/spain.htm

[Old300]

Well, Scoone, maybe. I'm inclined to agree with anyone who quotes Latin.

And I wish your country the best. In times like these, perhaps the most appropriate thing to say would be, "Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit."

[scoone]

'forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit'.

That's Aeneas cheering up his men right? in the Aeneid

[scoone]

I forgot to post the translation :

'it may be that in the future you will be helped by remembering the past'

[Old300]

That's right. Well, more like, "Perhaps one day it will be pleasing to remember even these things."

But anyway, on second tought, it might not be the most appropriate thing to say: in the context of recent events and Near East terrorism, one probably shouldn't quote a Turk who "married" an exiled Lebanese in Tunisia whose descendants went on to conquer Europe.

[scoone]

That's right.

On second tought, it might not be the most appropriate thing to say: in the context of recent events and Near East terrorism, one probably shouldn't quote a Turk who "married" an exiled Lebanese in Tunisia whose descendants went on to conquer Europe.

:) good to see someone who likes the latin classics.

[IDFM203]

Btw you don´t keep out of teaching everyone about everything about terror. There is life far away of your navel, what do you mean by navel…I ask for I am hoping its not what I think it is, not that it would effect me if it was, simply I didn’t ever think that you would stoop to that kind of level…so I will give you benefit of the doubt and I ask what do you mean by this statement (and more specifically that last word)


and neither you nor the isrealies have the monopoly of suffering. Who ever said we did :roll:

Yes you and others have indeed had attacks and have suffered over the years (and now)

Unfortunately Israel has suffered too and suffered greatly and as such we have a lot to teach about what to look for and what it is like to live under constant fear of these types of attacks on daily basis in everything that a person does and goes to.

Believe me this isn’t a contest who suffered more and its not like I want to win that, all I am saying is that we have extensive experience in experiencing terrorism and how to deal with it in our daily lives in how we do everything, and as such we can teach a few things from our experience that can be helpful.

That is all.



We know by far what is terrorism before you were born, just to clarify, you were responding to Javehn who is Israeli and not American….I think you want to rephrase this….



that´s what I mean. Sure Isreael can teach us a lot about organizing and armoured division or a parachutist brigade, they helped us to reorganize our inteligence service, you have me interested, what has Israel done to help your intelligence services….thanks for brining this up :D



but in question of fightin terrorism and dealing with civilian people, you can´t teach us nothing and you aren´t a good example, no its clear that your media has blinded you to the fact that Israel has done a lot of good things that can be used by other nations and it can in fact teach others some things.


Even if you disagree with some polices (and lets not get into it here for yet another debate :roll: ) the fact is that there are a lot of things that Israel does right in the face of constant and real terror and as such there is a lot that other nation can be learn from when or if it will ever be faced with the constant and daily threat that Israel faces.

IMO I cant see other nations faced with exactly what we have been faced with acting any differently and in fact I see most acting even more tough…again just the way I see things.




Btw, Haaretz still insists in calling the terrorist group Eta as a "separatist" group. A couple of things interesting here with your statements ;)

First Haaretz is a known “leftist” paper, and as such I guess its no surprise the way they term it.

Second thing is that you are angry about it and I guess deservingly so (hell I too don’t like that paper ;) ) but I guess now you can understand my anger when I read in your papers or in others when hamas or Islamic jihad are referred to as freedom fighters, or militants when they are terrorists plain and simple (any one who purposely targets only civilians are terrorists)

I can only hope that out of this tragedy you have at least a bit more understanding of the sensibilities of the terms that we as well read.


As for what happened in Spain and your nations response to it, well again its only my opinion but the way I see it is that the terrorists won plain and simple, and this has nothing to do with opinions on the Iraq war, bush, oil etc… the bottom line is that the terrorists got exactly what they wanted and the sad thing was that they got it immediately. The message and timing of it to the terrorists is in my opinion the worst tragedy of this whole mess. But hey if you don’t see it that way then more power to you for there is nothing I can do to change your mind on this.


Regardless, shalom to you and shalom to the people of Spain in these very troubling times :(

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Sad to say, but score one for the T's. It's maddening to see their tactics work.

[cut]

Sad to say, but score one for the T's. It's maddening to see their tactics work.

they worked after 9/11 too, the US did exactly what they wanted them to do.

[Seoulstriker]

'forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit'.

That's Aeneas cheering up his men right? in the Aeneid

hehehe. wouldn't have expected to hear that in a military forum. :hug:

[Vance]

Sad to say, but score one for the T's. It's maddening to see their tactics work.

they worked after 9/11 too, the US did exactly what they wanted them to do.
WHat? To blow them to kingdom come? rofl

[cut]

create the clash of civilizations they wanted, look at some of the americans on this site saying that islam is taking over europe etc.. That exactly what they wanted. Al qaida is not like any other terrorist groups they don't need OBL the cells are so impossible to get, the more the US applies pressure to arab countries the more new terrorists it produce, and meanwhile americans think that the military action is killing al qaida.

[Seoulstriker]

I forgot to post the translation :

'it may be that in the future you will be helped by remembering the past'


nooooooo.

it's translated: "Perhaps someday this will help you remember it". :)

[BlackRain]

Sad to say, but score one for the T's. It's maddening to see their tactics work.

they worked after 9/11 too, the US did exactly what they wanted them to do.
WHat? To blow them to kingdom come? rofl

Just ignore "CUT"'s Americophobe bashing. You can't reason with a closed mind.

[aeternum]

Sad to say, but score one for the T's. It's maddening to see their tactics work.

they worked after 9/11 too, the US did exactly what they wanted them to do.
WHat? To blow them to kingdom come? rofl

Just ignore "CUT"'s Americophobe bashing. You can't reason with a closed mind.

Its not him, who is closed minded here.

[BlackRain]

Just a small hint, 80% of the spanish Population was against the war for oil in Iraq. That was long BEFORE these Bombs exploded...



I don't agree with your characterization about the "war for oil in Iraq".

The United States certainly has not seen any economic benefit from the war in the petroleum markets.




U.S. Gasoline Prices Hit a Record High
Prices for all grades of gasoline rose 1.34 cents in the last two weeks to a record high nationwide average of $1.77 a gallon, according to a study released Sunday.

Gas prices have jumped by nearly 26 cents so far this year, and while they won't be falling by that amount any time soon, they aren't expected to rise much higher, according to the Lundberg survey of 8,000 stations nationwide. The survey was conducted Friday.

The previous combined average record high was $1.76 in May 2001.
Source: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040315/D81AILK00.html

If gas and oil were cheaper and more available after the Iraqi war than I would agree with you, but this simply not the case.

[HELEX]

If gas and oil were cheaper and more available after the Iraqi war than I would agree with you, but this simply not the case.

Well, the Insurgency is the reason. Or do you think the situation there is according to the american Plan? :roll:

The Bush administration underestimated how difficult it will be.

[scoone]

I forgot to post the translation :

'it may be that in the future you will be helped by remembering the past'


nooooooo.

it's translated: "Perhaps someday this will help you remember it". :)

There are many ways to translate it :

Perhaps one day it shall be good to remember even these things
This is the other way , pointed before by Old300.It's the best translation although it depens in the latin grammar used

[aeternum]

I don't agree with your characterization about the "war for oil in Iraq".

The United States certainly has not seen any economic benefit from the war in the petroleum markets.


Its not about the current situation. Its about the future, about the next decades.

China is growing fast and extending all around the globe to seek new oil ressources to fund their economical growth. Oil is still the no1 grease for any economic around the world. Just recently China signed a contract with Saudi Arabia about oil-exploring. With China the no1 rival of the USA within the next decades and in badly need of oil for its industries on the one hand and the USA willing to do everything to remain the topdog on this planet as along as possible leads to the conclusion that the US´s interest into the middle east is also based onto the fact to gain a strategical-geopolitical advantage to keep the most likly rival down as long as possible. With the USA in control of the oil in Iraq, they have made their move.

[Aeron]

Hi all, first of all sorry for by bad english.

I'm Spanish and I'm not proud at all of the new goverment we have, I think they have used the 202 killed to reach they goals. The charges of keeping information they socialist used and so are completely wrong, the attack was 11-M and wanted to have results 2 days after?? this things take time... and after that all clues and hints must be keeped in secrt in order no to **** the police investigation... I think Spanish ppl has been manipulated. So I think terrorist have won, they change the mind of a country, pathetic.

Now we are acting has cowards to the rest of the word... we are attacked we go home, so terrorist have to be laughing wherever they are now, really sad. Think that not all the ppl in Spain are like that we want to fight terrorism specially seeing our past/present ( ETA )

The socialist made a lot of promises ( they have the elections lost before 11M ) in order to win votes, now they won... let see what they do now, and I'm referring to:

- Cataluña ( North - East )
- Basque country ( North )
- Andalucia ( South )
- Troops

This promises will lead to a progresive dismember of Spain :'(

Lates news are that troops will return home on 30 June unless UN enters Irak. :cantbeli:

See ya! :(

Edited: We are not a Islamic country ¬¬ and we never will. No kidding with Osama and his ****ing mother...

[scoone]

I agree in one thing : we shall not retreat from Irak.Even without UN commad, we must stay.But the army must obbey orders from the politicians, if they decide to pull out troops from Irak.I don't like our new president. but as I said before time will tell.

This promises will lead to a progresive dismember of Spain, that's the point in which I don't agree at all.

[Loco]

Btw you don´t keep out of teaching everyone about everything about terror. There is life far away of your navel, what do you mean by navel?I ask for I am hoping its not what I think it is, not that it would effect me if it was, simply I didn?t ever think that you would stoop to that kind of level?so I will give you benefit of the doubt and I ask what do you mean by this statement (and more specifically that last word)


and neither you nor the isrealies have the monopoly of suffering. Who ever said we did :roll:

Yes you and others have indeed had attacks and have suffered over the years (and now)

Unfortunately Israel has suffered too and suffered greatly and as such we have a lot to teach about what to look for and what it is like to live under constant fear of these types of attacks on daily basis in everything that a person does and goes to.

Believe me this isn?t a contest who suffered more and its not like I want to win that, all I am saying is that we have extensive experience in experiencing terrorism and how to deal with it in our daily lives in how we do everything, and as such we can teach a few things from our experience that can be helpful.

That is all.



We know by far what is terrorism before you were born, just to clarify, you were responding to Javehn who is Israeli and not American?.I think you want to rephrase this?.



that´s what I mean. Sure Isreael can teach us a lot about organizing and armoured division or a parachutist brigade, they helped us to reorganize our inteligence service, you have me interested, what has Israel done to help your intelligence services?.thanks for brining this up :D



but in question of fightin terrorism and dealing with civilian people, you can´t teach us nothing and you aren´t a good example, no its clear that your media has blinded you to the fact that Israel has done a lot of good things that can be used by other nations and it can in fact teach others some things.


Even if you disagree with some polices (and lets not get into it here for yet another debate :roll: ) the fact is that there are a lot of things that Israel does right in the face of constant and real terror and as such there is a lot that other nation can be learn from when or if it will ever be faced with the constant and daily threat that Israel faces.

IMO I cant see other nations faced with exactly what we have been faced with acting any differently and in fact I see most acting even more tough?again just the way I see things.




Btw, Haaretz still insists in calling the terrorist group Eta as a "separatist" group. A couple of things interesting here with your statements ;)

First Haaretz is a known ?leftist? paper, and as such I guess its no surprise the way they term it.

Second thing is that you are angry about it and I guess deservingly so (hell I too don?t like that paper ;) ) but I guess now you can understand my anger when I read in your papers or in others when hamas or Islamic jihad are referred to as freedom fighters, or militants when they are terrorists plain and simple (any one who purposely targets only civilians are terrorists)

I can only hope that out of this tragedy you have at least a bit more understanding of the sensibilities of the terms that we as well read.


As for what happened in Spain and your nations response to it, well again its only my opinion but the way I see it is that the terrorists won plain and simple, and this has nothing to do with opinions on the Iraq war, bush, oil etc? the bottom line is that the terrorists got exactly what they wanted and the sad thing was that they got it immediately. The message and timing of it to the terrorists is in my opinion the worst tragedy of this whole mess. But hey if you don?t see it that way then more power to you for there is nothing I can do to change your mind on this.


Regardless, shalom to you and shalom to the people of Spain in these very troubling times :(
IDFM203, I mean Javehn, or you, or Israel, or just me, we aren´t the middle of the world, that´s all. You can think about me or my intentions what you want, it doesn´t care, but I´ll never more explain myself that my intentions are good. If I want to insult anyone, it would be because I think I´m offended and I´d tell to the one in question what I think in a straight way, and this is not the case.
About colaboration, spanish intelligence service was remade after subsequent scandals and bad use of intelligence in the 90s, during the former socialist government :oops: Then and now, there was some collaboration of Mossad with our services, it´s not a new news. I don´t now the size of this help because I am not an insider. I have my opinions, and I insist you need looking more to other places, and of course Isreal is not the model in fighting against terrorism, at least for us, spanish. As I see, we´re winning and you not if you want to consider things in that way. . And well, please don´t comment my message verse by verse, you look like a judge or a philologer, I don´t deserve this attention :oops:
Anyway, everybody has his opinion and all are interesting.
Shalon, peace, paz, bakea, salam. ;)

[Luxembourger]

PROBLEM : 1 ) Spanish people were against the war in IRAQ . the government supported OIF. Did they think if their government were not invloved in IRAQ AL Qaeda would never strike SPain ? HEy long before OIF many suspects in SPain were arrested .

2) I just want to remind you that AL QAeda did many attacks before the IRAQ Invasion using other blackmailing like : anyone supporting the US in AFGHANIISTAN (OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM ) will be on our target list

3) Now people pretend AL Qaeda only attacked SPain because SPain is supporting OIf and has troops in IRAQ .

People belived that **** , blamed Aznar, and voted the Socialists who first of all are not socialt democrats like in Germany which is a great party and which I like very much , secondly this new party will make a coaalition with many radical left parties which are very anti-military and refuse any military action against AL Qaeda.

4) Today on BBC they quoted again what AL QAeda said once " anyone who is with the americans in iraq and I quote AFghanistan will be bombed."

The new spanish government will remain it s troops in Aghansitan , so what if there will be more bombings? pulling back out from Afghanistan too ? Are we just about to obey AL Qaedas blackmails ?


5) The nations involced in IRAq are in the rebuilding phase of the country , not in the offensive-invasion phase. Spanish troops are in Iraq in order to help build up the country .and restore order. Why pulling them back????

And as now AL Qaeda guys are in Iraq right now who do suicide bombings why not fight them too there ? and pretend no no we remain only engaged in Afhganistan because terrorists are only in Afghanistan.

Well there might have been no Al qaeda in IRAQ before OIF ,,,,but there are no proofs for that. But now they are , so why pulling back spanish troops`?

[Loco]

People belived that **** , blamed Aznar, and voted the Socialists who first of all are not socialist democrats like in Germany which is a great party and which I like very much , secondly this new party will make a coaalition with many radical left parties which are very anti-military .

Yep, spanish socialist aren´t like in Germany, our socialist usually prefer wine to beer, and crude ham to sausages. Luxemburger, seriously, how much old are you? Psoe is a social-democrat party. The economic policy followed by PP, spanish conservative party, until not followed the same line drawn by Pedro Solbes, last spanish social-democrat minister of economy, now an european comissary of economy. It´s sure talking is cheap, you don´t have to pay for it.

[cut]

PROBLEM : 1 ) Spanish people were against the war in IRAQ . the government supported OIF. Did they think if their government were not invloved in IRAQ AL Qaeda would never strike SPain ? HEy long before OIF many suspects in SPain were arrested .

2) I just want to remind you that AL QAeda did many attacks before the IRAQ Invasion using other blackmailing like : anyone supporting the US in AFGHANIISTAN (OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM ) will be on our target.

3) Now people pretend AL Qaeda only attacked SPain because SPain is supporting OIf and has troops in IRAQ

People belived that **** , blamed Aznar, and voted the Socialists who first of all are not socialist democrats like in Germany which is a great party and which I like very much , secondly this new party will make a coaalition with many radical left parties which are very anti-military .

4) Today on BBC they quoted again what AL QAeda said once " anyone who is with the americans in iraq and I quote AFghanistan will be bombed."

The new spanish government will remain it s troops in Aghansitan , so what if there will be more bombings? pulling back out from Afghanistan too ? Are we just about to obey AL Qaedas blackmails ?


5) The nations in IRAq are in the rebuilding phase of IRAq , not in the offensive-invasion phase. Spanish troops are in Iraq in order to help build up the country .and restore order. Why pulling them back????

I partly agree. I think we should Seperate OEF and OIF, the Spannish are not giving up on the war on terror (as they see it OEF) they are however giving up on OIF, not because of the terrorist attacks but because they have been protesting about it since last year.

That means that more bombings will not lead to spannish troops being pulled out of Iraq, by saying that you are suggesting that the spanish don't want to fight the terrorists, when in reality they don't want to fight Iraqis.

But I agree that this move is somewhat lost due to the fact that the war in Iraq is over now we are building the country.

But maybe there is more to this, the US are rebuilding Iraq not the coalition, and the US are rebuilding it as they see fit, which means more hatred of the US in the Arab world,even if they succeed in making a democratic arab country. Therefore the US are contributing to the future of al qaida, more than Spain.

I think we need to think this through, killing OBL and other AQ "leaders" is not the quick fix solution many in the US believe it will be.

[Luxembourger]

socialists in spain are not like those in Germany it s completely different.

I know talking is cheap we call that "expressing its free opinion" whether you like it or not.

PS : I am aware that the PP did a mistake too in order to immediatly blame ETA .. They should not have done that too .

But do you think that if AZnar had in the first day said " it s AL Qaeda" he would have still won the elections? Did he lost the elections becuase he lied or because of the OIF issue?

[Loco]

socialists in spain are not like those in Germany it s completely different.

Except in the case of the wine, the ham and that our socialist don´t speak german, in what are different from their german colleages? Please, I´d like to know it. I´m sure is the first time you´ve listened of Pedro Solbes, in spite of being that man working closer to your home than mine.

[IDFM203]

IDFM203, I mean Javehn, or you, or Israel, or just me, we aren´t the middle of the world, that´s all. You can think about me or my intentions what you want, it doesn´t care, ahh? :roll: I didn’t think any intentions that is why I asked to make sure I did not.

If I had just thought I wouldn’t ask you what you meant by it.

No need to get THAT defensive :roll:


have my opinions, and I insist you need looking more to other places, and of course Isreal is not the model in fighting against terrorism, at least for us, spanish. again I cant make you see things other then the way you want to see them, all I am saying is that yes you have suffered BUT you don’t have an Israel situation, not by a long shot (and that has nothing to do with the way you handled things) and still there is always things anyone can learn from someone (your very arrogant to say you cant learn from other places :roll: ) that has had to deal with constant terrorism for a while and has in recent times actually limited it (not ended it for there are no 100 percent solutions) but it has curbed it significantly from what it was just a few years ago)

And as a result is in fact winning it’s the long battle against terrorism.

Anyways Israel has a lot of various tools and knowledge on how to deal with terrorism (even if YOU don’t agree with all of them) and no matter your arrogance (or naiveté about what we face and how we deal with it) there is always something others can learn from it (at least aspects of it)



As I see, we´re winning and you not if you want to consider things in that way. I guess if you define appeasement as winning then I guess you are winning. Anyways we in Israel dont have your options of appeasement and non action in defense for if we don’t act against terrorism and thus allow it to constantly attack us, we cease to exist or come close to it.

That is not the case for you, thankfully.


And well, please don´t comment my message verse by verse, you look like a judge or a philologer, I don´t deserve this attention :oops: hey don’t take it personally its just my style ..hell you write those long paragraphs and that is your style which I do NOT comment on, as such I deserve the same respect in the way I write here on this forum and I don’t appreciate your condescension here (like I am a judge or philosopher when in no way was I putting my self in that place)

Btw if you notice I leave out a lot of what you say and I don’t dissect every message.

We simply have different styles of the way we converse here….that is all



Anyway, everybody has his opinion and all are interesting.
Shalon, peace, paz, bakea, salam. ;) ditto :D

Shalom :D

[Luxembourger]

And you know what ? I am very afraid and very pessimistic concerning the outcome of the war against terrorism :

I hope not to see the western nations signing a peace treaty with AL Qaeda and obeying to AL QAeda s wishes what should happen in the world and what should not .

[Loco]

IDFM203, I mean Javehn, or you, or Israel, or just me, we aren´t the middle of the world, that´s all. You can think about me or my intentions what you want, it doesn´t care, ahh? :roll: I didn?t think any intentions that is why I asked to make sure I did not.

If I had just thought I wouldn?t ask you what you meant by it.

No need to get THAT defensive :roll:


have my opinions, and I insist you need looking more to other places, and of course Isreal is not the model in fighting against terrorism, at least for us, spanish. again I cant make you see things other then the way you want to see them, all I am saying is that yes you have suffered BUT you don?t have an Israel situation, not by a long shot (and that has nothing to do with the way you handled things) and still there is always things anyone can learn from someone (your very arrogant to say you cant learn from other places :roll: ) that has had to deal with constant terrorism for a while and has in recent times actually limited it (not ended it for there are no 100 percent solutions) but it has curbed it significantly from what it was just a few years ago)

And as a result is in fact winning it?s the long battle against terrorism.

Anyways Israel has a lot of various tools and knowledge on how to deal with terrorism (even if YOU don?t agree with all of them) and no matter your arrogance (or naiveté about what we face and how we deal with it) there is always something others can learn from it (at least aspects of it)



As I see, we´re winning and you not if you want to consider things in that way. I guess if you define appeasement as winning then I guess you are winning. Anyways we in Israel dont have your options of appeasement and non action in defense for if we don?t act against terrorism and thus allow it to constantly attack us, we cease to exist or come close to it.

That is not the case for you, thankfully.


And well, please don´t comment my message verse by verse, you look like a judge or a philologer, I don´t deserve this attention :oops: hey don?t take it personally its just my style ..hell you write those long paragraphs and that is your style which I do NOT comment on, as such I deserve the same respect in the way I write here on this forum and I don?t appreciate your condescension here (like I am a judge or philosopher when in no way was I putting my self in that place)

Btw if you notice I leave out a lot of what you say and I don?t dissect every message.

We simply have different styles of the way we converse here?.that is all



Anyway, everybody has his opinion and all are interesting.
Shalon, peace, paz, bakea, salam. ;) ditto :D

Shalom :D
umm, I think there´s no chance in finding an agreement here, I only say here there are too many macho men. Perhaps if we have a relative good situation is because we alway have enough ball for fightng by the ideas in which believe, being right or wrong. Keep your methodology and your politics for your own, we didn´t try to give lesson to isrealies nor never used your suffering when you were bombed for our own purposes.

[BlackRain]

If gas and oil were cheaper and more available after the Iraqi war than I would agree with you, but this simply not the case.

Well, the Insurgency is the reason. Or do you think the situation there is according to the american Plan? :roll:

The Bush administration underestimated how difficult it will be.

How do I explain this?

Oil is cheaper from Iraq than from other oil producing countries of the world. The "insurgency" is not having a negative impact on crude oil prices in Iraq or in the rest of the world.

If it was, then oil prices from Iraq would be substantionally higher.


Table 13. World Crude Oil Prices1 In Effect: 05-March-2004
Country (Dollars per Barrel)

Iraq3
Kirkuk 36° 29.64

Qatar
Dukhan 40° 31.47

Algeria
Saharan Blend 44° 33.45

Venezuela
Tia Juana Light 31° 31.63

United Kingdom
Brent Blend 38° 33.48

Canada
Canadian Par 40° 36.14

Egypt5
Suez Blend 33° 28.33

[Luxembourger]

listened of Pedro Solbes,
indeed I did not read his bibliogaphy, if he has one :-) I read in the newspapers . I did not check on internet who he is .

oh concerning the difference between german and socialists parties : here is one point : the germans are very moderate , they back their police forces and they are that European nation that send many troops arround the globe.
The german social democrat has not a problem using it s police and military in an aggressive way . Look have you ever heard about KALIFFEN-Staat ?

That Kalllifen - Staat was thrown out from Turkey and it established itself in Germany for many years. After 9/11 this Kallifen Staat group was very aggressive in it s statments against the WESt ...you know the typical statments you hear from religious muslim leaders based in London ( listen to the comments made by one of those guys 2 days ago in London ) ( ARTE , a great TV channeld made once an undercover report too in one of london s mosques,,,,damn the speeches in those mosques where filled with hate against Europe. ).

SO the gemran government decided to take tough actions against that Kallifen staat and banned it completely, searched it s offices and confiscated it s stuff found in their offices.

Generally speaking : The GErman social democrat party , is a party that is not soft when to deal with bad guys, it supports well it s police forces, it does not like so much to undego coalitions with radical left parties like the PDS; although BERLin has a coalition of SPD and PDS,.
That s why the Social democrat party in Germany does come many times under fire from hardliners in the green party who disagree with the green foregin minister Fischer , who is a great european politican.

Oh and you know why the socialiist parties in FRance lost the elections in 2002? 1) because they are not moderate, do nothing for police officers, and think by talking to a bad guy makes him turn into a good guy in one day. They did nothing for the security of the people in FRance .

[Luxembourger]

And by the way I was grown up by my grand partens who are voting left , I was voting left too the first time I voted in my lifetime , I joined the youth socialist group in 1998 by thinking " IF YOU ARE LEFT YOU are for the poor , for the workers" . You know what they were only talking about ? Do you really want to know what our sociliist politicians were only talking about ?

here it is : yes the police is bad, the army is bad, NAto sucks, America sucks ., Nato should not bomb kosovo etc.. etc... then they began to praise Lenin ideology, and other stuff that had really nothing to do with the country s problem . I remember I was waering once a nato pins on my jacket duriing one of their meetings , I got blamed the whole time,,,,,,,I decided to get out . WIth the 9/11 attacks I became more conservative ... it was disgusting again to hear what left newspapers were writing like :

Bin laden is bad ,,,,,,but it s the American s fault , it s all their fault. they are the bad ones.

[Whistler]

This has been a very dissapointing turn of events for fight against terror.

To Marino and the other Spaniards here: Don't worry, I'm sure things will work out for your country some how. Many people around the world are dissapointed with what happened in Spain but I think we are all angry at the terrorists, not the Spanish people.

This has overall been a very sad week. First 202 are tragically killed, and a few days later the terrorist dream comes true.

I hope this doesn't set a precedent.

[IDFM203]

umm, I think there´s no chance in finding an agreement here, I only say here there are too many macho men. Perhaps my friend though if you clam down for second, you will realize that I hear what you are saying I only hope that you get our point as well.

Yes we disagree on something’s but I think it’s more to do with not listening or understanding (what we really face and how we do it) then with actual disagreement (though yes I concede that still we would probably disagree with some things ;) )


Perhaps if we have a relative good situation is because . perhaps though I can also think of the fact that you aren’t surrounded by 22 Muslim nations where a lot of their populations have their Islamic fundamentalist ideologies that want to see the whole Israel destroyed no matter what, to deal with.

Yes there are differences to both situations and as to why one has been more “quiet” then the other. (and that has more to do with geography then about anything that you have done)



alway have enough ball for fightng by the ideas in which believe, being right or wrong. Now this I totally disagree with…..appeasment to terrorism which is what you essentially have done (and regardless, it most certainly is how they will interpret it) is not a sign of a nation fighting for what it believes in but rather one of giving up, period!!


Keep your methodology and your politics for your own, we didn´t try to give lesson to isrealies
Hey we are just trying to help.

You can accept help from a nation that deals with terrorism or you don’t have to but your arrogance that somehow your way is the only true way and that we don’t know what we are talking about or that we have nothing to offer, is appalling and stupid.


Btw I am not sure but I belive an Israeli team of body identification experts went to Spain to help out, though I am not sure about this.


nor never used your suffering when you were bombed for our own purposes. wow and you think we offered help or talked about help as a way to use you :roll: ….geez…. :roll: .

After terror attacks and earthquakes Israel always offers its help (even to Iran when Israel offered help), it sent teams to Kenya after the bombings there of U.S. embassies and it sent teams to turkey after its earthquake etc… Israel unfortunately has extensive knowledge and training in how to respond and deal with terrorists attacks and it has some help and advice to offer!!

From the attacks over the years, there are lessons that we learnt that we can teach just as well as there are lessons from your issues and from others that we and others can learn from

For you to totally dismiss what we know is well……….etc :roll:

Shalom :D

[Sayeret]

I guess the Al Qaeda did win in Spain. The terrorists will probably attack some other country like Japan or Great Britain to try to get them to take troops out of Iraq. Spain is only helpping the terrorists get stronger and allow them to recruit more people by pulling its troops out of Iraq. This reminds me of Saudi Arabia. Before recently they were trying to appease the terrorists. Then the terrorists started carrying out attacks but the Saudis kept trying to appease them. Finally though the Saudis started to take some kind of action against the terrorists.

[cut]

I guess the Al Qaeda did win in Spain. The terrorists will probably attack some other country like Japan or Great Britain to try to get them to take troops out of Iraq. Spain is only helpping the terrorists get stronger and allow them to recruit more people by pulling its troops out of Iraq. This reminds me of Saudi Arabia. Before recently they were trying to appease the terrorists. Then the terrorists started carrying out attacks but the Saudis kept trying to appease them. Finally though the Saudis started to take some kind of action against the terrorists.


sooooo wrong

[seruriermarshal]

I guess the Al Qaeda did win in Spain. The terrorists will probably attack some other country like Japan or Great Britain to try to get them to take troops out of Iraq. Spain is only helpping the terrorists get stronger and allow them to recruit more people by pulling its troops out of Iraq. This reminds me of Saudi Arabia. Before recently they were trying to appease the terrorists. Then the terrorists started carrying out attacks but the Saudis kept trying to appease them. Finally though the Saudis started to take some kind of action against the terrorists.


sooooo wrong

You wrong , We lose a friend ( Spain ) , And now some people hope we lost this war !

[cut]

where are you from?and which war are you referring to? the war in Iraq or the War against terrorism?

[seruriermarshal]

where are you from?and which war are you referring to? the war in Iraq or the War against terrorism?

You know , war against terrorism .

[cut]

Spannish are still in afghanistan and are staying there, are you satisfied that you are wrong yet? Where are you from if you are not american?

[seruriermarshal]

Spannish are still in afghanistan and are staying there, are you satisfied that you are wrong yet? Where are you from if you are not american?

I don't know , In your eyes AQ only in afghanistan ? Now terrorism change a country . Yes , afghanistan still war , but remember ISAF
defence area is very small , Maybe spain know ......

[usa320]

such as influencing the U.S. elections

If they hit the US again, the people are going to get pissed again, and a people wanting to hit back at those sons of bitches arent going to vote for that limp wristed fagit John Kerry...

So attacking the US again would be even more counterproductive than the first time they hit us, which in the long run hurt them more than it hurt us.

[cut]

Spannish are still in afghanistan and are staying there, are you satisfied that you are wrong yet? Where are you from if you are not american?

I don't know , In your eyes AQ only in afghanistan ? Now terrorism change a country . Yes , afghanistan still war , but remember ISAF
defence area is very small , Maybe spain know ......

Well in the mind of spaniards the war in iraq was not against terrorists but it infuriated the terrorists, they stood to make no gains from the war in Iraq, why should they support it.

Where are you from, what did your government do (this is the 3rd time I have asked you, are you ashamed of your country or something?)

[cut]

such as influencing the U.S. elections

If they hit the US again, the people are going to get pissed again, and a people wanting to hit back at those sons of bitches arent going to vote for that limp wristed fagit John Kerry...

So attacking the US again would be even more counterproductive than the first time they hit us, which in the long run hurt them more than it hurt us.

John Kerry would be forced to do something if AQ strikes the states when he is president.

and even if he didn't a hard response is what AQ want, they get get more recruits as the arab world becomes more convinced that this is not a terrorist antagonising and is in fact a clash of civilisations.

[seruriermarshal]

Spannish are still in afghanistan and are staying there, are you satisfied that you are wrong yet? Where are you from if you are not american?

I don't know , In your eyes AQ only in afghanistan ? Now terrorism change a country . Yes , afghanistan still war , but remember ISAF
defence area is very small , Maybe spain know ......

Well in the mind of spaniards the war in iraq was not against terrorists but it infuriated the terrorists, they stood to make no gains from the war in Iraq, why should they support it.

Where are you from, what did your government do (this is the 3rd time I have asked you, are you ashamed of your country or something?)

Because Iraq war , terrorism attack spain ? AH ...... So , maybe you say too : because Iraq war , so terrorism attack u.s. ( 9.11 ) ? Now , spain soldier killed in Iraq , people killed in their country , you say : don't blame terrorism , blame spanish government . So I don't know we must thank terrorism ? We must believe terrorism ?
By the way , because my safe , so I can't say where I from , It's a reason why I support Iraq war .

[cut]

Spannish are still in afghanistan and are staying there, are you satisfied that you are wrong yet? Where are you from if you are not american?

I don't know , In your eyes AQ only in afghanistan ? Now terrorism change a country . Yes , afghanistan still war , but remember ISAF
defence area is very small , Maybe spain know ......

Well in the mind of spaniards the war in iraq was not against terrorists but it infuriated the terrorists, they stood to make no gains from the war in Iraq, why should they support it.

Where are you from, what did your government do (this is the 3rd time I have asked you, are you ashamed of your country or something?)

Because Iraq war , terrorism attack spain ? AH ...... So , maybe you say too : because Iraq war , so terrorism attack u.s. ( 9.11 ) ? Now , spain soldier killed in Iraq , people killed in their country , you say : don't blame terrorism , blame spanish government . So I don't know we must thank terrorism ? We must believe terrorism ?
By the way , because my safe , so I can't say where I from , It's a reason why I support Iraq war .

haha you are ashamed of your country.. I don't like people who are ashamed of their country :slap: tell me where you are from and then I'll explain to you how this works.

[seruriermarshal]

Spannish are still in afghanistan and are staying there, are you satisfied that you are wrong yet? Where are you from if you are not american?

I don't know , In your eyes AQ only in afghanistan ? Now terrorism change a country . Yes , afghanistan still war , but remember ISAF
defence area is very small , Maybe spain know ......

Well in the mind of spaniards the war in iraq was not against terrorists but it infuriated the terrorists, they stood to make no gains from the war in Iraq, why should they support it.

Where are you from, what did your government do (this is the 3rd time I have asked you, are you ashamed of your country or something?)

Because Iraq war , terrorism attack spain ? AH ...... So , maybe you say too : because Iraq war , so terrorism attack u.s. ( 9.11 ) ? Now , spain soldier killed in Iraq , people killed in their country , you say : don't blame terrorism , blame spanish government . So I don't know we must thank terrorism ? We must believe terrorism ?
By the way , because my safe , so I can't say where I from , It's a reason why I support Iraq war .

haha you are ashamed of your country.. I don't like people who are ashamed of their country :slap: tell me where you are from and then I'll explain to you how this works.

HeHe ...... Why you not ashamed ? I know your country can't because your support Iraq war Insult you , yes ? So I want my country can't because I support Iraq war Insult me .

[cut]

well you can't write legible english I can't understand what you are trying to say, where are you from? I have nothing to hide, I support my country.

[seruriermarshal]

I say again , because my safe , you support your country , And I hope my country support Iraq war .

[cut]

I say again , because my safe , you support your country , And I hope my country support Iraq war .

give me a clue. europe?

[seruriermarshal]

I say again , because my safe , you support your country , And I hope my country support Iraq war .

give me a clue. europe?

No
:roll:

[cut]

central/south america?

[Beowulf]

Haiti? Algeria? or French Indochina?

[IsdatU]

John Kerry would be forced to do something if AQ strikes the states when he is president.

and even if he didn't a hard response is what AQ want, they get get more recruits as the arab world becomes more convinced that this is not a terrorist antagonising and is in fact a clash of civilisations.


John Kerry is running as a pacifist. Meaning that he will have the US cut and run like the Spanish if he gets elected.

If there is another attack, he will waffle and pussyfoot around like Jimmy Carter did during the Iranian hostage crisis. He will be a disaster for the USA and a one term president if he were elected. Of course he has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected.

BTW, When are you going to wake up and realize that this is a clash of civilizations?

We know how you guys in Old Europe fear the wrath of Islam. You probably think you can't win. Hmmm.... You guys know yourselves pretty well, you probably can't.

But I know that we Americans can change their religion if we make up our minds to do so.

[cut]

John Kerry would be forced to do something if AQ strikes the states when he is president.

and even if he didn't a hard response is what AQ want, they get get more recruits as the arab world becomes more convinced that this is not a terrorist antagonising and is in fact a clash of civilisations.


John Kerry is running as a pacifist. Meaning that he will have the US cut and run like the Spanish if he gets elected.

If there is another attack, he will waffle and pussyfoot around like Jimmy Carter did during the Iranian hostage crisis. He will be a disaster for the USA and a one term president if he were elected. Of course he has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected.

BTW, When are you going to wake up and realize that this is a clash of civilizations?

We know how you guys in Old Europe fear the wrath of Islam. You probably think you can't win. Hmmm.... You guys know yourselves pretty well, you probably can't.

But I know that we Americans can change their religion if we make up our minds to do so.

hi sixgun, when did you move to california?

As far as I know John Kerry was only talking about iraq, but surely as a liberal he will relish the chance to nurse afghanistan to decency.

You guys fear the Islam not us. If we can't win, why do you want our support?

Change their religion? :lol: I your dreams sixgun

If Bush wins is he going to deal with the deficit? or let igrow so that democrats have to deal with it.

[IsdatU]

Don't fear the muslims?

The world just saw the Spanish run from the muslims. ;)

California? Lived there for awhile, I get around. Anyway, you underestimate US military power. The only people that could win the war for Al Qaida are the socialists like Kerry. Remember he and his ilk won the Vietnam war for the VietCong.

[cut]

Don't fear the muslims?

The Spanish socialists just turned and ran. :)

California? Lived there for awhile, I get around.

how does that make them scared of muslims? And how do the decisions of the spannish mean that applies to the UK or the polish as europeans?

bored of seattle? oh no, the last one was a cave wasn't it?

[IsdatU]

Liked my little joke? :D

Anyway, the Spanish cut and run after being attacked. In ancient times, Spain fought and won a reconquista against the muslim invaders. But Spain has since declined into a nation of wimps. I think liberalism has taken away their manhood.

Americans were attacked on 911 and we fought back. The Spanish were attacked and they run. This is evidence of the decline in modern Europe.

Now I should not say this is true of all Europeans, just the Liberal ones. But so many Europeans are liberal these days. There is something really submissive about liberals. Even the males are very female, maybe they need hormone therapy?

[khukuri]

"Even the males are very female, maybe they need hormone therapy?"

even thou I am a liberal myself and find you a moron this was really really funny :lol:

[Lobo]

Anyway, the Spanish cut and run after being attacked. In ancient times, Spain fought and won a reconquista against the muslim invaders. But Spain has since declined into a nation of wimps. I think liberalism has taken away their manhood.

Americans were attacked on 911 and we fought back. The Spanish were attacked and they run. This is evidence of the decline in modern Europe.

Wow! I'm a paper away of getting my Sociology degree, but I must confess this is some kind of cutting edge social research. rofl

[Javehn]

Ok , i am to ungry , and i must get back to this .

So, it is common , that when criminal kills your family ? You sit down in deep tradegy , and blaming , god a gode , he must have did this , because his childhood was so rough . I must not blame him for this , and allow him to continue the killing . It is my fault , that he killed my family , because we were in his path .
That is what happened . Criminals getting punished after crimes . And here i read people that justify the terror , saying that terrorist haven't become terrorist without a reason , and if the reason has ended , so does the terrorist .

Ok , allow me ask then . Criminals also have their problems , and that's why they become criminals . I don't see no one talking , that criminals shouldn't be belong in prison . And terrorists are the worst possible type of criminals on the planet .

I don't understand , so before the terror act , the majority was again to Asnar . That after you all said , that Spanish people were against Irawi actions . So , how come Asnar is getting elected for second time then ? He is the one that gave Spanish troops to Iraq .

Another question . When it was said , that ETA behind the terror act , everybody wanted to deal with them . Deal with those scumbag terrorists ETA , kill them without imprisson . But after it was known that it was El-Qaida , what happened ? Where is the deap hate ? It's enough the name transformation from ETA-El-Qaida , and that's all , there were no terror act on the soil of Spain ? It's just another Spain fault ? Not enough balls to deal with it ? And if tommorow El-Qaida will bomb Spain again , and ask , that all Spanish should to convert themself into Islam , they would do so ?

On this line of thinking , perhaps the Basque region is better independent from Spain . It's not their fault their fighting for their independent . Perhaps maybe they aren't terrorists after all , just separatists . They have legit goal , and perhaps it's a time to give them , what they rightfully claim .

So Asnar lied , bug foocking deal . Perhaps war in Iraq have nothing to do with terror fighting . But the presence of troops in Iraq , is a rebuilding of country , and troops neaded to maintain the order . The **** was done allready , so it's time to flow with it . At list one good think will go from it , the rebuild of Iraq . But someone has to keep the order , and protect the rebuilders there , and that's troops , sence the Iraqi police are not exactly in the best shape . That's very very short sight to say , the real war of terror in Afganistan , so we will stay there , and leave Iraq . So , every single member of El-Qaida is consentrated in Afganistan , and that is the source of evil in the earth ??

Every major decission is full of political plots and planning . The smart is to oversight the immidiate stuff , and to see on the goal . That's failed. And El-Qaida won . YOU GAVE THEM the reason , why they should continue with the bombings . Because apparantly it works .

And to Loco , you have no idea what is the meaning of ISLAM terror . You have your share with ETA , but first time you have encountered ISLAMIC radical terror . The one we living for a long time . You didn't want to listen me and bombarded me with your **** . So , listen me carefully : We have experience of Islamic terror for over 40 years . You have experienced it for a first time . So don't you go and teach me , that we should teach you . It's to heart for me to see country have it's first encounter , with something that is the closest thing to real evil on earth , and you didn't knew how to deal with it . Simple fact , Loco . You didn't know how to deal with it . If you were so experienced , and no advice needing as you said to me , you would be a better tolerant to this , wouldn't you say ?
So , yes , i will teach you , because it seams that you personally nead one . It was a big shock to Spain , and don't tell me it wasn't .

That's comming from the pane of mine to Spanish people . Again , i am writting this not as disrespect , but as personal heart to people , who have tasted the farkness . We are with you , don't back up .Perhaps , in couple of month , or even years , you would understand what i am talking about . Remember my text, Loco . Remember it good .

Understand , this people don't have your mindset . They don't think like you . They don't understand things as you understand them , and they will take an act of generocity as a defeat , or a weakness . Weakness , they personally hate it , and they bellieve that they have a right to act against people that showed themself week . They think differently , different menthality , you cannot compare those people by your persoal mindset . It is a special breed of terror , different then others , and much hardcore.

[Nizark]

OK, how does this sound... AQ knows they can influence elections now, so they will probably try something like that against the US/UK during their elections. As of now, not counting most of the people on this board, Bush is not liked in the US, let alone the world, although, without doubt G.W. is seen as a hardass and go military all the way. So, lets say there is an attack in the US a few days before the elections, just like in Spain, and the country will undoubtedly want security and a tough response, thus, G.W. gets the election nod, since Kerry is a pacifist. Once the response comes, the US and the world will be left with Bush for another 4 years, doing who knows what with our country.

I just hope the spainards realize what they did and maybe recall that wanker they just elected. Maybe when rummy made the old/new Europe, he wasn't too far off the mark. Perhaps Castrated and Big Balls europe would be a better analogy.

I am just really curious as to what happened to Europe. They use to be the 'fight to the last man,' you can't fock with us, come get some, people. Now they are hiding in corners, fighting in 'safe' areas only, and isolating themselves because they are simply afraid of what may happen if they say "No, we will NOT allow this to happen." When i was growing up, I always thought of it as a far away place that wouldn't allow injustice to happen on a grand, Hitler like scale, and they soldiers would flood into battle when it was right or when a larger wrong was being perpitrated. Now it is peace and love continent, with a few small willing to stick its head out in the face of a threat and do something about it, like poland, spain, the UK, and the small nations. I mean, does every european nation need a 9/11 to be woken up? Up until 9/11, the US was concerned about chinese ICBM's and a missile defense shield, now we are stepping up and doign something about the problem. Will the eiffel tower and the cologne cathedral need to be on fire before they do anything? Parts of Europe may end up being that lost toy in the bottom of the sand box that everyone liked to plan with, but once it got lost, people forgot about it and buried it further.

[scoone]

The spanish goverment is on his right to pull out the troops fron Irak.But, is the are placed under U.N. command they will stay in Iraq.We are'nt pissed off, or afraid or whatever, the war in Irak was very unpopular in Spain since it begun.
The socialist goverment won the elections because a vast part of the population voted for Zapatero. Many of the voters only wanted to make a change.The spanish goverment ( the former one I mean) had a lot of problems in many political areas. I don't like to see the troops pulling out of Irak, but this a democracy if the goverment orders such a thing ( a nonsense in my opinion) it would not mean that we are turning our backs on terrorism problems. But also, we must re-take the relationship with France and Germany.
I love my country ( hate politicians and politics), we are not cowards, AQ didn't win the elections or hand them to Zapatero. There are more problems in our country apart from the Irak issue. I didn't want to see a socialist party in the power again, but democracy works this way.

[Trident-za]

Very good points, Scoone.

People seem to forget that elections for government revolve around many issues, not just the issue of Iraq or even terrorism.

I suppose the timing of the election (right after the blasts) and the timing of the statement concerning Spanish troops played right into the media's hands - perfect opportunity to make a lot of conclusions that don't take into account all the facts (not that I know what they are :lol: ) I must admit my initial reaction to hearing the news was also "sh1t, the terrorists won this round". Upon reflection, that may be an entirely false reaction, based on timing rather than reality.

[scoone]

Very good points, Scoone.

People seem to forget that elections for government revolve around many issues, not just the issue of Iraq or even terrorism.

I suppose the timing of the election (right after the blasts) and the timing of the statement concerning Spanish troops played right into the media's hands - perfect opportunity to make a lot of conclusions that don't take into account all the facts (not that I know what they are :lol: ) I must admit my initial reaction to hearing the news was also "sh1t, the terrorists won this round". Upon reflection, that may be an entirely false reaction, based on timing rather than reality.

I think you are right 100%. And btw i'm going to post no more about this issue, time will tell.

[seruriermarshal]

Spain elections benefit Osama
Vijay Dutt

London, March 15

The sensational victory of the Socialists in the Sunday General Election in Madrid confounding the poll forecasts and inflicting a grievous punishment on the popular party government for supporting Bush and Blair alliance in the war against Iraq is being viewed an effective, albeit indirect, victory for Osama bin Laden and his gang of terrorists.

The defeat of Jose Maria Aznar whose win was predicted by six per cent over the Socialist until 48 hours before the polls will please Al-Qaeda bosses whose "intervention" successfully changed the political result in a democracy, said an analyst at King's College. It is a blow for the war on terrorism.

His view is backed by many others, even those who have been castigating Tony Blair for similar reason, of joining Bush in his Iraq war. The lessons of Spain will, of course, not be lost on Tony Blair. He has lost his most reliable pro-Bush European ally, except for the mercurial Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. Blair could also see his absolute majority melt away if Osama "intervenes" in Britain too near the elections next year. A poll on Monday showed that the Muslim support for Labour has fallen from 75 per cent in 2001 to 38 per cent. One in 13 thought that a terror attack will be justified in view of the policies like against Iraq.

More alarm than anger has built up against the belief that Islamic radicals were prompted to avenge Aznar's because of his Iraq policy. Over 76 per cent people were moved to come out to cast their votes to show their anger at Aznar. They held him responsible for the death of 200 in Madrid. But said the leader in the Times that the notion that peace could be bought from the terrorists if politicians altered their approach to the Middle East is not just immoral but fundamentally mistaken.

There is ultimately only one place where blame for the Madrid carnage should lie and that is with those who callously ordered and ruthlessly implemented it.

The warning to all is that the motives of those who committed the vile deed in Madrid should not be awarded the dignity of political calculation or considered rationality. Al-Qaeda has not struck in Spain because it is concerned about the aspects of Spain's foreign policy, any more than it acted in New York on 9/11 in protest at the American stance towards Israel or Palestine.

There is much unanimity on the belief that Islamist radicals are motivated by the desire to turn back the clock several hundred years and recreate a world order in which Islam was a more powerful force and could impose a brand of faith. It is this world order that Osama has been talking about for years.

Barbara Amiel writing in the Telegraph noted by their own mad statements, Islamists would not be content until all the lands they believe belong to the Muslim world were freed of the infidel. She has warned that "unless we pull ourselves together we shall find ourselves spread all over streets and railway lines".

The wish of the Islamists is reflected in the language used by terrorists, a vocabulary of "crusaders" and "crusades". It is being recalled that the loss of Moorish Granada to Christian Spain in 1492 was in the mind of bin Laden. This was referred to by Al-Qaeda as if t was a recent humiliation.

A more stark warning has come from Lord William Rees-Mogg who said: "Those who think that they can afford to indulge in the luxury of carping at American power are Osama bin Laden's useful idiots". He avers that without 9/11, 3/11 would not have happened.

Terrors is not a retail business, Al-Qaeda has taken it into wholesale trade, and that is most alarming for the world at large. It has nothing to do with policies or politics but to the ultimate aim to change the world order as seen by the terror bosses.

Spain has now seen it climb the first step on the ladder of such an ambition, albeit unwillingly. Whosever killed the 200 in Madrid, they were not seeking to persuade but destroy, said Rees-Mogg. This is the hallmark of Al-Qaeda. He praised Tony Blair for getting this perception right.

The fact that there is today a global terror aimed at destroying our society has been well understood by Russia and China who understand, said Rees-Mogg. "This is a threat to them as much as to the United States. They would not help a radical Islamist movement to get at the Americans."

He has hit out at the anti-Americanism in Europe, which partly reflected in the Sunday election in Spain. America is one nation, he said, that is strong enough to fight for all our societies. In Spain, unfortunately a grieving mass of people, unwittingly gave terrorism a reason and cause. This is most dangerous, if terror can dictate electoral and political processes. This is why Rees-Mogg reminded, "We were all in that terrible train in Madrid. And today we are all at war."

[seruriermarshal]

Maybe , we will lose the war , but we can't give up our dignity !

[IsdatU]

Dhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system. The word "dhimmitude" as a historical concept, was coined by Bat Ye'or in 1983 to describe the legal and social conditions of Jews and Christians subjected to Islamic rule. The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination. Islamic conquests expanded over vast territories in Africa, Europe and Asia, for over a millennium (638-1683). The Muslim empire incorporated numerous varied peoples which had their own religion, culture, language and civilization. For centuries, these indigenous, pre-Islamic peoples constituted the great majority of the population of the Islamic lands. Although these populations differed, they were ruled by the same type of laws, based on the shari'a.

see www.dhimmi.org

[seruriermarshal]

Dhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system. The word "dhimmitude" as a historical concept, was coined by Bat Ye'or in 1983 to describe the legal and social conditions of Jews and Christians subjected to Islamic rule. The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination. Islamic conquests expanded over vast territories in Africa, Europe and Asia, for over a millennium (638-1683). The Muslim empire incorporated numerous varied peoples which had their own religion, culture, language and civilization. For centuries, these indigenous, pre-Islamic peoples constituted the great majority of the population of the Islamic lands. Although these populations differed, they were ruled by the same type of laws, based on the shari'a.

see www.dhimmi.org


I don't know , we must become Moslem ?

[rafaelcb]

Hi All,

Spain will continue fighting against terrorism. I very much doubt our troops will be withdrawn from Irak. Probably the UN-control of Irak will be speeded-up so Mr. Zapatero can find a reson for maintaining the troops.

Otherwise, they will be transferred to Afghanistan or wherever the next problems are.

Best regards,

Rafael

[seruriermarshal]

Hi All,

Spain will continue fighting against terrorism. I very much doubt our troops will be withdrawn from Irak. Probably the UN-control of Irak will be speeded-up so Mr. Zapatero can find a reson for maintaining the troops.

Otherwise, they will be transferred to Afghanistan or wherever the next problems are.

Best regards,

Rafael

My friend , I hope you are right ......

[Elmo]

And to Loco , you have no idea what is the meaning of ISLAM terror . You have your share with ETA , but first time you have encountered ISLAMIC radical terror . The one we living for a long time . You didn't want to listen me and bombarded me with your **** . So , listen me carefully : We have experience of Islamic terror for over 40 years . You have experienced it for a first time . So don't you go and teach me , that we should teach you . It's to heart for me to see country have it's first encounter , with something that is the closest thing to real evil on earth , and you didn't knew how to deal with it . Simple fact , Loco . You didn't know how to deal with it . If you were so experienced , and no advice needing as you said to me , you would be a better tolerant to this , wouldn't you say ?
So , yes , i will teach you , because it seams that you personally nead one . It was a big shock to Spain , and don't tell me it wasn't .



The guy who kept nagging about thread hijacking is here, pushing his own agenda. I'm not suprised people like Loco won't listen to your advice. The Israeli way is not working and the situation has gone way too far to be solved.

[Lobo]

Keep it on! Keep it on, please!

It's really educative to read all these well informed opinions about Spain and the political turmoil that followed the terrorist attack. It's great to find so much knowledge about a country no one here lives in and no one knows (excepting the Spaniards, of course). Just happens Spain is the country I was born and I grew up, the country whose newspapers I read and Madrid the city I'm living in.

So it's my time for

:cantbeli:

and

:backhand:

then

:slap:

not forget

:fork:

and specially

:bash:

Well, let's start.

War on Terror
Spain has sadly a long experience with terrorism. Someone for Israel or North Ireland would say that less people have died in Spain, but labeling terrorists as real "hijos de puta" is not a quantitative matter but a qualitative. The mater is we have those ****ing bastards, not how much bastards they are in the "bastards terrorist degree scale" Tel Aviv University (c) 2004.

One thing we have learnt during these years is that fighting terrorist isn't like a war. There aren't a a war front to fight at and a rear echelon where to feel safe. There isn't enemy headquarters to bomb with your air force. It's a silent slow longly undercover work that involves not so glamourous tasks like dismantling money laundry networks.

So we understand "War on Terror" in quite a different way and we rise our eybrows everytime someones talk about bombing a country to fight terrorism.

When September 11th happened and we were asked to join the fight against Al Qaeda, we did in the way we knew. We became the
European country that has dismantled more Al Qaeda cells so far.

And while macho guys like IsdatU got their ****s really hard seeing bombs falling over Afghan villages we asked to ourselves why the USA wasn't pressing enough Saudi Arabia to cut the funding of Al Qaeda (Oh, sorry. I forgot those millions coming from lobbies that remind me that we must be nice with our allies!)

War on Irak
Someone said Spanish people weren't a proud nation anymore. Let me tell you something. If something has made us feel deeply ashamed it was Mr Aznar licking the ass to GWB. (Well, it was worse when our Foreign Affairs Minister bowed so many times in a very theatrical way to greet Mrs. Bush in Madrid).

We believed the reasons given for the war were a bunch of lies (as it resulted to be) and we opposed to it. There was a moment when more than 90% of Spanish population opposed it, if we can believe the goverment ruled Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas). Our pride was insulted with Aznar pathetically dreams of grandeur. Do you remember those 62 Spanish soldiers (officiers, NCO and soldiers I mean) who died in plane crash in Turkey? They were coming back home in a crappy plane because there wasn't enough planes or funds.

Just one note for those democracy maker lovers. We had a dictatorship for almost 40 years, and I'm sure nobody would have traded it for seeing his familiy becoming a "collateral damage" and his country some kind of neocolonial protectorate.

The election.
One week before, everyone took for granted that the Popular Party (conservative) would win the elections, but without enough seats in the Parliament to make his candidate president of government. Then we have the Socialist Party (socialdemocrat) and his candidate playing the Mr Nice role, reminding us the reasons to not vote the Popular Party but without giving a clear idea about why we should vote him. Among his promises was BRINGING BACK the troops in Irak (no those in Kosovo, no those in Bosnia, no those in Afghanistan).

March 11th

7:39 A chain of explosions rocks four commuter trains in South East Madrid. Each of us think about ETA. I'm sure millions thought "¡Hijos de puta!"

11:30 A van, pointed by a witness as suspicious, is found with
-An audio tape with Koran's verses in Arabic
-Some detonators of a different kind of the usually employed by ETA
-An empty cartridge of Explosivos Río Tinto "Goma 2 ECO", an explosive material of a different kind of the usually employed by ETA

13:30 Interior Minister Acebes talks with the media and blames ETA and says that blaming other ones is an attempt to make people get confused and it's a political manoeuvre.

He said exactly:


"El gobierno no tiene ninguna duda que ETa está detrás de los atentados. Resulta intolerable cualquier tipo de intoxicación que vaya dirigida por parte de miserables, a desviar el objetivo y los responsables de este drama y esta tragedia".

The demostration
The goverment called on Thursday for a big demostration the following in Madrid to support the victims, the Constitution and against terrorism. Take note it didn't call to support democracy, but Constitution. Time ago the president of Basque Country launched a proposal to become a "free associated state" as Puerto Rico, that goes far beyond the degree of self-goverment that the Constitution gives to regional goverments.

The demostration took place on Friday evening. But before it ETA had denied its relation with the killings and Al Qaeda took responsability in a letter to London based "Al Quds Al Arabiya" newspaper. More reasons to not believe the ETA involvment was the fact that placing 13 backpacks in 4 trains involved an ammount of people that ETA wasn't able to sneak into Madrid. All its last attempts to make terrorist attacks had ended as a failure. The only terrorists ETA could enroll last Christmas were a bunch of crybabies who were given a 45 minute lesson about how to set some bombs that didn't work.

I went to the demostration with a friend. It was confusing. There were more banners blaming ETA than Al Qaeda. Many people shouted against Arnaldo Otegui, spokeman of the now illegal political branch of ETA. Some banners just said "ETA = Al Qaeda". I said to my friend "Imagine for a moment that it wasn't ETA. We are making a fool of ourselves demostrating against Basque terrorism". Many people shouted "¿Quién ha sido?" (Who has been?)

Saturday
A media group that supports the Socialist Party quoted foreign medias that find hard to blame ETA. And it reports about the complains of foreigner journalist in Spain about governmental pressure to blame ETA. In the other hand Conservative media said there is a conspiration to blame Al Qaeda to distract attention of the fact that Socialist Party's ally in Catalonia government negociated with ETA. (long story, I'm summing up)

Then it was around 5 o'clock in the afternoon when minister Acebes announces that 3 Moroccan citizens and 2 Indian citizens are under police custody for their involvement in the bombigs. Then it explodes. One hour later hundreds of people demostrated in front of Partido Popular's office in Madrid. The same happens in may other cities and tows in Spain. People felt that goverment had lied, or at least, given confussing information to present the terrorist attack as an action of ETA, and get a massive support in the coming election.

Election Day
Since Thursday all political parties and the goverment called for a massive participation as an act of support of the Spanish democracy. This is the key, as I'll show you later, after I answer to all the bashing coming after this post. Anyway I needed to be pasionated and opinionated for a moment.

I'll launch a question. Have anyone here taken a look to the statistics of the election? I have done. Have you about foreign media who has done it?

Headquarters in Afghanistan happened to exist because there was a civil war there going with almost regular armies (mechanized units). You have also Al Qaeda training camps, but they were the kind of camp where you train guerrila fighters. If you consider a tent with a sattelite phone an Al Qaeda headquarter have it your way.

[seruriermarshal]

Keep it on! Keep it on, please!

It's really educative to read all these well informed opinions about Spain and the political turmoil that followed the terrorist attack. It's great to find so much knowledge about a country no one here lives in and no one knows (excepting the Spaniards, of course). Just happens Spain is the country I was born and I grew up, and Madrid the city I'm living in.

So it's my time for

:cantbeli:

and

:backhand:

then

:slap:

not forget

:fork:

and specially

:bash:

Well, let's start.

War on Terror
Spain has sadly a long experience with terrorism. Someone for Israel or North Ireland would say that less people have died in Spain, but labeling terrorists as real "hijos de puta" is not a quantitative matter but a qualitative. The mater is we have those f*** bastards, not how much bastards they are in the "bastards terrorist degree scale" Tel Aviv Universtity (c) 2004.

One thing we have learnt during these years is that fighting terrorist isn't like a war. There aren't a a war front to fight at and a rear echelon where to feel safe. There isn't enemy headquarters to bomb with your airforce. It's a silent slow longly undercover work that involves not so glamourous tasks like dismantling money laundry networks.

So we understand "War on Terror" in quite a different way and we rise our eybrows everytime someones talk about bombing a country to fight terrorism.

When September 11th happened and we were asked to join the fight against Al Qaeda, we did in the way we knew. We became the
European country that has dismantled more Al Qaeda cells so far. And while macho guys like IsdatU got their ****s hard seeing bombs falling over Afghan villages we asked to ourselves why the USA wasn't pressing enough Saudi Arabia to cut the funding of Al Qaeda (Oh, sorry. I forgot those millions coming from lobbies that remind me that we must be nice with our allies!)

War on Irak
Someone said Spanish people weren't a proud nation anymore. Let me tell you something. We felt deeply ashamed of Mr Aznar licking the ass to GWB. (Well, it was worse when our Foreign Affairs Minister bowed so many times in a very theatrical way to greet Mrs. Bush in Madrid).
We believed the reasons given for the war were a bunch of lies (as it resulted to be) and we opposed to it (There was a moment when more than 90% of Spanish population opposed it, if we can believe the goverment ruled Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas). Our proud was insulted with Aznar pathetically dreams of grandeur. Do you remember those 62 Spanish soldiers (officiers, NCO and soldiers I mean) who died in plane crash in Turkey? They were coming back home in a crappy plane because there wasn't enough planes or funds.

Just one note for those democracy maker lovers. We had a dictatorship for almost 40 years, and I'm sure nobody would have traded it for seeing his familiy becoming a "collateral damage" and his country some kind of neocolonial protectorate.

The election.
One week before, everyone took for granted that the Popular Party (conservative) would win the elections, but without enough seats in the Parliament to make his candidate president of government. Then we have the Socialist Party (socialdemocrat) and his candidate playing the Mr Nice role, reminding us the reasons to not vote the Popular Party but without giving a clear idea about why we should vote him. Among his promises was BRINGING BACK the troops in Irak (no those in Kosovo, no those in Bosnia, no those in Afghanistan).

March 11th

7:39 A chain of explosions rocks four commuter trains in South East Madrid. Each of us think about ETA. I'm sure millions thought "¡Hijos de puta!"

11:30 A van, pointed by a witness as suspicious, is found with
-An audio tape with Koran's verses in Arabic
-Some detonators of a different kind of the usually employed by ETA
-An empty cartridge of Explosivos Río Tinto "Goma 2 ECO", an explosive material of a different kind of the usually employed by ETA

13:30 Interior Minister Acebes talks with the media and blames ETA and says that blaming other ones is an attempt to make people get confused and it's a political manoeuvre.

He said exactly:


"El gobierno no tiene ninguna duda que ETa está detrás de los atentados. Resulta intolerable cualquier tipo de intoxicación que vaya dirigida por parte de miserables, a desviar el objetivo y los responsables de este drama y esta tragedia".

The demostration
The goverment called for a big demostration in Madrid tu support the victims, the Constitution and against terrorism. Take note it didn't call to support democracy, but constitution. Time ago the president of the regional goverment of Basque Country launched a proposal to become a "free associated state" as Puerto Rico, that goes far beyond the Constitution framework.

The demostration took place on Friday evening. But before it ETA had denied its relation with the killings and Al Qaeda took responsability in a letter to London based "Al Quds Al Arabiya" newspaper. More reasons to not believe the ETA involvment was the fact that placing 13 backpacks in 4 trains involved an ammount of people that ETA wasn't able to sneak into Madrid. All its last attempts to make terrorist attacks had ended as a failure. The only terrorists ETA could enroll last Christmas were a bunch of crybabies who were given a 45 minute lesson about how to set some bombs that didn't work.

I went to the demostration with a friend. It was confusing. There were more banners blaming ETA than Al Qaeda. Many people shouted against Arnaldo Otegui, spokeman of the now illegal political branch of ETA. Some banners just said "ETA = Al Qaeda". I said to my firend "Imagine for a moment that it wasn't ETA. We are making a fool of ourselves demostrating against Basque terrorism". Many people shouted "¿Quién ha sido?" (Who has been?)

Saturday
A media group that supports the Socialist Party quote foreign medias that find hard to blame ETA. And it reports about the complains of foreigner journalist in Spain about governmental pressure to blame ETA. In the other hand Conservative media said there is a conspiration to blame Al Qaeda to distract attention of the fact that Socialist Party's ally in Catalonia government negociated with ETA. (long story, I'm summing up)

Then it was around 5 o'clock in the afternoon when minister Acebes announces that 3 Moroccan citizens and 2 Indian citizens are under police custody for their involvement in the bombigs. Then it explodes. One hour later hundreds of people demostrated in front of Partido Popular's office in Madrid. The same happens in may other cities and tows in Spain. People felt that goverment had lied, or at least, given confussing information to present the terrorist attack as an action of ETA, and get a massive support in the coming election.

Election Day
Since Thursday all political parties and the goverment called for a massive participation as an act of support of the Spanish democracy. This is the key, as I'll show you later, after I answer to al lthe bashing coming after this post. But I'll launch a question. Have anyone here taken a look to the statistics of the election? I have done.

Headquarters in Afghanistan happened to exist because there was a civil war there going with almost regular armies (mechanized units). You have also Al Qaeda training camps, but they were the kind of camp where you train guerrila fighters. If you consider a tent with a sattelite phone an Al Qaeda headquarter have it your way.

:bash:
Your meaning is you are right ? Yes , spain still in Afghanistan , but because Iraq , spain lose 200 people , so spain soldier go home , if after 3 year , terrorist attack kill 200 people again in spain , spain soldier go home from Afghanistan ? Please remember we are allies .

[cut]

.

So, it is common , that when criminal kills your family ? You sit down in deep tradegy , and blaming , god a gode , he must have did this , because his childhood was so rough . I must not blame him for this , and allow him to continue the killing . It is my fault , that he killed my family , because we were in his path .
That is what happened . Criminals getting punished after crimes . And here i read people that justify the terror , saying that terrorist haven't become terrorist without a reason , and if the reason has ended , so does the terrorist .



you can't simplify it like this. in real life criminals kill your family you are considered a vigilante if you go after them yourself. Also I have said it a million times and i'll have to say it again, Spain are already taking part in the war on terrorism, maybe they should send more troops to get al qaida.

The war in Iraq did nothing to stop AQ, it was an anglo-american war. What does Spain get out of it? other than a terrorist attack.

By your logic, what do you do when one of your family is killed because you help a friend kill his family (who are criminals/AQ Afghanistan) and his cousin's family(iraq) who's a criminal but has done nothing to you or any of you friends that killed his(iraq) family.

as I said you can't simplify this.

[Pad75]

Keep it on! Keep it on, please!

...

Headquarters in Afghanistan happened to exist because there was a civil war there going with almost regular armies (mechanized units). You have also Al Qaeda training camps, but they were the kind of camp where you train guerrila fighters. If you consider a tent with a sattelite phone an Al Qaeda headquarter have it your way.


Ole Lobo!
Lo dijo con mucho arte.

Los americanos adoran dar lecciones sobre Europa y conozcan nuestros países mas que nosotros... Especialmente cuando ninguno han venido para verlo con sus ojos.

Soy muy triste para lo que pasó en Madrid.
Hasta luego.

[Javehn]

you can't simplify it like this. in real life criminals kill your family you are considered a vigilante if you go after them yourself. Also I have said it a million times and i'll have to say it again, Spain are already taking part in the war on terrorism, maybe they should send more troops to get al qaida.

The war in Iraq did nothing to stop AQ, it was an anglo-american war. What does Spain get out of it? other than a terrorist attack.

By your logic, what do you do when one of your family is killed because you help a friend kill his family (who are criminals/AQ Afghanistan) and his cousin's family(iraq) who's a criminal but has done nothing to you or any of you friends that killed his(iraq) family.

as I said you can't simplify this.

Well , sorry if you don't like the way i presented it , i was just trying to present something . There is no need to deeply analise my example and watch it under the microscope . If you would like to deeply analise this silly example , so i will let you think about : death penalty . U.S. , the simbol of west has it . To criminals that are way bellow terrorists.

But as i wrote , allready in the same post , you took this example from . El-Qaida aren't all tight up together in Afganistan . They not gone when you deal done with them . They are worldwide problem . Problem that should be dealt worldwide .
If i say to you , that a war in Iraq is mistake , that will not help anyone . This day , this hour , war in Iraq is gone long ago . No more war in Iraq . Perhaps that was a mistake . But mistake is done . Those days Iraq is rebuild slowly . And the Spanish troops in Iraq now aren't participating in the GW2 . They are part of Iraq rebuild . They not there to conquer . To rebuild .
They perhaps not wearing the blue helmets of UN , and operate under it flag , but they do the same work . And someone will ofcorse get's pissed with this . That's at list my opinion . The war in Iraq is long gone . At list help to rebuild it . That's what Spanish troops do there .

Question : If El-Qaida would say , that it was done as responce to presence of Spanish troops in Afganistan . What would happend then ?

And Elmo , at list try to count the number of times i said in my previous post Israel and Palestine , and how much did i said Spain . You make me look like i am pushing or selling someone ? Go insult the childrens in your playground . But tto me you have to appologize .

[cut]

you can't simplify it like this. in real life criminals kill your family you are considered a vigilante if you go after them yourself. Also I have said it a million times and i'll have to say it again, Spain are already taking part in the war on terrorism, maybe they should send more troops to get al qaida.

The war in Iraq did nothing to stop AQ, it was an anglo-american war. What does Spain get out of it? other than a terrorist attack.

By your logic, what do you do when one of your family is killed because you help a friend kill his family (who are criminals/AQ Afghanistan) and his cousin's family(iraq) who's a criminal but has done nothing to you or any of you friends that killed his(iraq) family.

as I said you can't simplify this.

Well , sorry if you don't like the way i presented it , i was just trying to present something . There is no need to deeply analise my example and watch it under the microscope . If you would like to deeply analise this silly example , so i will let you think about : death penalty . U.S. , the simbol of west has it . To criminals that are way bellow terrorists.

But as i wrote , allready in the same post , you took this example from . El-Qaida aren't all tight up together in Afganistan . They not gone when you deal done with them . They are worldwide problem . Problem that should be dealt worldwide .
If i say to you , that a war in Iraq is mistake , that will not help anyone . This day , this hour , war in Iraq is gone long ago . No more war in Iraq . Perhaps that was a mistake . But mistake is done . Those days Iraq is rebuild slowly . And the Spanish troops in Iraq now aren't participating in the GW2 . They are part of Iraq rebuild . They not there to conquer . To rebuild .
They perhaps not wearing the blue helmets of UN , and operate under it flag , but they do the same work . And someone will ofcorse get's pissed with this . That's at list my opinion . The war in Iraq is long gone . At list help to rebuild it . That's what Spanish troops do there .

Question : If El-Qaida would say , that it was done as responce to presence of Spanish troops in Afganistan . What would happend then ?


I never said the iraq war was a mistake I don't think it was the best timing considering that we are supposed to be taking out terrorism.

I agree with you point about iraq being rebuilt now. The damage has be done, now we should rebuild Iraq it won't make a difference now.

Answer: the same thing, the troops aren't being removed Iraq because of anything al-qaida said. In fact they did say that it was because spain took part in afghanistan and iraq, but spannish troops in afghanistan are staying put.

[Javehn]

Ok , i see . I agree with you . Actually Spanish members here explained it very well . All is left , to pray for Spanish people , you got mine . I just hope it doesn't turn to be a huge mistake .
And Elmo , i still waiting .

[cut]

Ok , i see . I agree with you . Actually Spanish members here explained it very well . All is left , to pray for Spanish people , you got mine . I just hope it doesn't turn to be a huge mistake .
.

I think so too

[Kellhound]

Liked my little joke? :D

Anyway, the Spanish cut and run after being attacked. In ancient times, Spain fought and won a reconquista against the muslim invaders. But Spain has since declined into a nation of wimps. I think liberalism has taken away their manhood.

Americans were attacked on 911 and we fought back. The Spanish were attacked and they run. This is evidence of the decline in modern Europe.

Now I should not say this is true of all Europeans, just the Liberal ones. But so many Europeans are liberal these days. There is something really submissive about liberals. Even the males are very female, maybe they need hormone therapy?

FIRST
Retreat from Iraq was planned for BEFORE bombings.

SECOND
In BOD, our defense bulletin where posts to cover in Iraq were published, stated they were until this summer, starting deployment/replacement starting from next week. But the usual deployment has been always 6 months. This was published months ago, well before the bombings.

THIRD
Anybody has an evidence, a real, honest to god, irrefutable evidence it was Al-Qaeda the ultimate responsible party of the bombings?
Because i know NOTHING about it. I don't trust blindly terrorists reivindicating OR denying anything. We've had many examples of this being only lies during ETA's and GRAPO careers.
Everybody tells for sure it was AQ, mainly foreign media and spanish leftists, and assume it was because implication of Spain in Iraq.
And the clues pointing to ETA or other than islamic terrorism? Forgetting them because they don't fit the current trend? Curious, that was what PP was doing against ETA the first hours after the bombing.

Many of us in the army still think ETA is a more probable guilty part than islamists. Maybe there is something we don't know? Are we jumping to wrong conclusions?




And to answer it, I never supported the PP. They crippled the Spanish armed forces far more than PSOE before them, and defense secretary Trillo couldn't have done things worse for us:
YAK42 accident, Eurofighter crash before it, continued fall in number of new enlistments since 97, closing of almost every weapon manufacturer in Spain (except heavy industry with foreign participation, of course), alienating us from civilian population (despite "peace missions"), lax (almost inexistent) entry requirements, etc, etc, etc.

To be in the Spanish Army you must have to cope with things inimaginable to any country with a normal army.

http://www.abc.es/abc/laterales/otro_contenido/iconos_para_destacados_home_abajo/LazoNegro1.gif

[rafaelcb]

There has been a lot of silly writing about the consequences of PSOE's victory in Spain. Please remember that this is the same party that used to organize demonstrations against NATO and then joined NATO when they were in the government. (BTW, Mr. Javier Solana, EX-NATO general secretary and now EU's Mr. Pesc is a member of PSOE)
For the moment all that Mr. Zapatero has said is that the troops will return UNLESS there is a UN authority in Irak. The UNLESS is the clue.
There are already some signs that this will be like that. 'El Pais' newspaper (pro-socialist) has a long article defending that the troops should remain, and 'Canal+' (again pro-socialist) right now showed a Zapatero-puppet singing: "My first promise, My first compromise; My first lie, Troops will return from Irak" ;)

Just relax and let's concentrate on finding those bastards :bash:

[Nizark]

While this board is not a spanish board with very few spainards posting, it can give the spainards an idea of what the Americans see from the terrible attack in madrid, that is not on fox news or the BBC. Aznar saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to jump on the bandwagon. Yes the spanish people were against the war, but in the US, it is being portrayed as a angry vote because of the timing of the attack. I don't know the numbers from before the attack, but it would have seemed that the socialist guy would have lost if not for the attack. Personally, i hope that those fockers who did this are found and strung up, since the normal AQ op of suicide bombers didn't happen this time. While i am a part of it, its just sad that we have turned such a tragedy into a full on political circus.

[IsdatU]

http://www.indystar.com/images/pics2/section-image-058881-7348.jpg

[cut]

While this board is not a spanish board with very few spainards posting, it can give the spainards an idea of what the Americans see from the terrible attack in madrid, that is not on fox news or the BBC. Aznar saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to jump on the bandwagon. Yes the spanish people were against the war, but in the US, it is being portrayed as a angry vote because of the timing of the attack. I don't know the numbers from before the attack, but it would have seemed that the socialist guy would have lost if not for the attack. Personally, i hope that those fockers who did this are found and strung up, since the normal AQ op of suicide bombers didn't happen this time. While i am a part of it, its just sad that we have turned such a tragedy into a full on political circus.

polls are often misleading especially when they are tight. Before and after the attack in Madrid I was just as unsure who would get the vote.

[Loco]

http://www.indystar.com/images/pics2/section-image-058881-7348.jpg
Isdatu, in your joke you could change Ben Laden by George Bush.

The people of Spain gave al-Qa'ida what none of their other victims has ever given them: a surrender.
As I said yesterday to an stupid spanish boy, go and tell it to people from Vallecas. That´s false and you´rent brave for wrinting it. Goood night.

[Maverick77]

Spain made a big mistake...

Anyway you look at it the terrorists can legitimatly claim a victory here.

[Loco]

Anyway you look at it the terrorists can legitimatly claim a victory here.
Certainly, today died the victim number 201.

[seruriermarshal]

Anyway you look at it the terrorists can legitimatly claim a victory here.
Certainly, today died the victim number 201.

Sad message , this war we lose , we have defeated oneself .

[ogukuo72]

The bombings in Spain and the surprise electoral dumping of its government have sparked new fears that emboldened terrorists may try the same violent tactics ahead of elections in Asia and the United States presidential poll in November.

Analysts say Al-Qaeda - widely suspected to have planted the bombs which killed 200 in the Spanish capital last week - and Asian regional terror network Jemaah Islamiah may now be tempted to try to dislodge other governments that have supported the US in the Iraq war and in its fight against terror.

'That's an amazing impact of a terrorist event, to change the party in power,' Professor Jerrold Post, a former CIA profiler who directs the political psychology programme at George Washington University, told Associated Press (AP).

Political psychologist Stanley Renshon of City University of New York agreed. 'The implications of this are fairly staggering. This is the first time that a terrorist act has influenced a democratic election,' he said.

'This is a gigantic, loud wake-up call. There's no one they'd like to have out of office more than George W. Bush,' he told AP.

Spain's centre-right government had been expected to return to power in Sunday's elections but the bomb blasts - seen by voters and others as possible Al-Qaeda punishment for Madrid's backing of the US-led invasion of Iraq - turned the vote in favour of the opposition Socialist Party.

Spanish Prime Minister-designate Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero has already declared he will pull the country's 1,300 troops from Iraq unless the United Nations takes over Iraq's reconstruction.

Mr Zapatero called the war in Iraq a 'disaster' and said 'there were no reasons for it'.

US newspapers and television reports have been dominated by discussion over the implications for Washington.

Mr Zapatero pointedly spoke of wanting to have 'cordial' relations with the US, but 'magnificent' ties with France and Germany. A year ago, France and Germany led opposition to the Iraq war.

A key concern for Washington is not only that a terrorist attack appears to have succeeded in influencing the result of a democratic election, but that the result has led to a new government less inclined to back the US.

Mr Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, told Fox News: 'Now that the terrorists have seen this tactic work, will they be emboldened to try it elsewhere? That's the key question.'

Elections will be held in Malaysia and Taiwan at the weekend and polls will follow in the Philippines, Indonesia, Japan and Thailand. The fear is that the scenario in Spain could be replicated in countries like the Philippines, which have firmly and publicly supported the war in Iraq.

There is also concern that elections in July for Japan's Upper House could be affected by the government's controversial decision to send forces to support the reconstruction of Iraq.


This was in the local papers today. Just a sample of how WE in Asia think of the Spanish election results.
:-*$
We in Asia just can't help but feel that the Spanish people had made the world a more dangerous place for us.

[seruriermarshal]

The bombings in Spain and the surprise electoral dumping of its government have sparked new fears that emboldened terrorists may try the same violent tactics ahead of elections in Asia and the United States presidential poll in November.

Analysts say Al-Qaeda - widely suspected to have planted the bombs which killed 200 in the Spanish capital last week - and Asian regional terror network Jemaah Islamiah may now be tempted to try to dislodge other governments that have supported the US in the Iraq war and in its fight against terror.

'That's an amazing impact of a terrorist event, to change the party in power,' Professor Jerrold Post, a former CIA profiler who directs the political psychology programme at George Washington University, told Associated Press (AP).

Political psychologist Stanley Renshon of City University of New York agreed. 'The implications of this are fairly staggering. This is the first time that a terrorist act has influenced a democratic election,' he said.

'This is a gigantic, loud wake-up call. There's no one they'd like to have out of office more than George W. Bush,' he told AP.

Spain's centre-right government had been expected to return to power in Sunday's elections but the bomb blasts - seen by voters and others as possible Al-Qaeda punishment for Madrid's backing of the US-led invasion of Iraq - turned the vote in favour of the opposition Socialist Party.

Spanish Prime Minister-designate Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero has already declared he will pull the country's 1,300 troops from Iraq unless the United Nations takes over Iraq's reconstruction.

Mr Zapatero called the war in Iraq a 'disaster' and said 'there were no reasons for it'.

US newspapers and television reports have been dominated by discussion over the implications for Washington.

Mr Zapatero pointedly spoke of wanting to have 'cordial' relations with the US, but 'magnificent' ties with France and Germany. A year ago, France and Germany led opposition to the Iraq war.

A key concern for Washington is not only that a terrorist attack appears to have succeeded in influencing the result of a democratic election, but that the result has led to a new government less inclined to back the US.

Mr Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, told Fox News: 'Now that the terrorists have seen this tactic work, will they be emboldened to try it elsewhere? That's the key question.'

Elections will be held in Malaysia and Taiwan at the weekend and polls will follow in the Philippines, Indonesia, Japan and Thailand. The fear is that the scenario in Spain could be replicated in countries like the Philippines, which have firmly and publicly supported the war in Iraq.

There is also concern that elections in July for Japan's Upper House could be affected by the government's controversial decision to send forces to support the reconstruction of Iraq.


This was in the local papers today. Just a sample of how WE in Asia think of the Spanish election results.
:-*$
We in Asia just can't help but feel that the Spanish people had made the world a more dangerous place for us.

Yes , terrorists will more attack we . Very sad ......

[Lobo]

I'm back.

I took a look to the figures of last Sunday, and they are interesting things to figure out.

Spain has 42 millions inhabitants. Around 18 or 19 million people vote to the main two parties Partido Popular (Popular Party, conservative) and Partido Socialista Obrero Español (Socialist Party, socialdemocrat).

These are the figures for the 2000 election .
http://www.elmundo.es/especiales/2004/03/espana/14m/resultados/anteriores/congreso/globales/

23.864.497 went to vote that day (68,71% participation)

10.321.178 votes went for the Popular Party that got 183 seats
7.918.752 votes went for the Socialist Party that got 125 seats

Popular Party got 2.402.426 more votes than Socialist Party

If some of you are right, what happened last Sunday was that thousands of people in Spain ****ted their trousers and skirts, start crying like girls and rushed to vote to the Socialist Party "Please, plaese, let Osama has it in his way, pull back the soldiers back from Irak".

Let's take a look to the figures of 2004 election.
http://www.elmundo.es/especiales/2004/03/espana/14m/resultados/congreso/globales/

25.846.620 went to vote last Sunday (77.21 % participation).

The goverment and the political parties called for a massive participation in the elections. In the neibourghoods around the stations who suffered the bomb attacks the participation was higher than the 80%. The overall rise of participation was 8,5 points. 1.982.123 more people went to vote last Sunday.

So what's about the results?

10.909.687 votes were for the Socialist Party that got 164 seats
9.630.512 votes were for the Popular Party that got 148 seats

Popular Party got 690.666 votes less. Socialist Party got 2.990.935 votes more. Interesting, isn't it?

Before the bombings it was expected that the Popular Party would lose support and it would fall below the 176 seats barriers needed to make a goverment in Spain. Many times they are suprises and the surveys are a total s***, so we can't say what would happen in the case of bombing didn't happen. In the case of the "cry baby theory" was true, it wouldn't be enough to explain the Socialist victory. It's sure that Socialist Party won because not because it "stole" support to the Popular Party, but a lot of people who usually not go to vote went to do it for the Socialist Party.

Who are them?
Socialist Party got bigger increase of support in Andalucía (South) and Catalonia (NE) of Spain. It would take a lot of time to explain politics in Catalonia, but Partido Popular support sank there long time ago.

This is my opinion, but the most of the people who never vote in Spain are young. (I found some statistics long time ago). They are those who say "Nothing is going to change whoever govern", "Politics is **** and all politicians are bastards". They demonstrated against the Popular Party several times in the last years: Against the new university law (LOU), against the management of the Prestige oil tanker sinking (our "Exxon Valdez"), against the war and last Satudary against the government...

Socialist Party always failed to get their support until last Thursday. I belong to a research group on new technologies and social and political movement. I have been collecting a lot of articles and news about how all the demonstrations against Popular Party last Saturday were organised by the Short Message System (a feature of GSM mobile phones) that is a craze among young people in countries like Spain.

If you can read Spanish here's an interview to a former head of the Spanish public Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas (Sociological Research Center)...
http://www.periodistadigital.com/object.php?o=23108

Well... I hope you have understood my point. So here are my conclusions...

Did the terrorist attack last Thursday influenced the elections?
Absolutely. But the change of expected results are explained by inner Spanish politics.

Will Spain give up in "War on Terror"?
No, if you mean fighting against Al Qaeda. They have killed 201 fellow citizens and foreign workers who came to Spain to have a better life. Why we wouldn't want to fight against those hijos de puta? Having the Socialist Party in the goverment means only that Spain won't support illegal wars against a country not related with Al Qaeda to find imaginary WMD.

Maybe you aren't paying attention to it, but Spain has now information about the guys who planned this, they are some of them in jail already, a meeting of top antiterrorist officials is going to be held in Spain, etc, etc... Take note we are NOT bombing Morocco to relieve our rage.

Brining back the troops to Spain, isn't giving the wrong message to Al Qaeda?
Of course. Zapatero pretends to acomplish what he promised, but in the context following the terrorist attacks in Madrid it's going to be a wrong decision.

[rafaelcb]

Lobo,

I totally agrre with your analysis of the results. The bad result of the P.P. is mainly due to the extreme high participation. Those who voted for the P.P. in 2000 mostly voted again for the P.P. in 2004.

I also want to add that not a sigle act of agression or violence has been registered against Islamic centers or Muslims in Spain since the attack. We will find and jail those responsible for this, but of course no one is blaming Islam as a whole.

Other subject: From previous messages I am guessing you work in the E.T. I am thinking about joning the 'Reserva Voluntaria'. What are the feelings in the Army about this 'Reserva Voluntaria'? Do you think it is going to be of any use? Will I loose my time?

Thanks!

[Lobo]

Working in the ET? Me? ;) I'm afraid I'm just a amrchair general.