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askDNA
05-02-2006, 11:08 AM
White Guilt and the Western Past
By SHELBY STEELE
May 2, 2006; Page A16

There is something rather odd in the way America has come to fight its wars since World War II.
For one thing, it is now unimaginable that we would use anything approaching the full measure of our military power (the nuclear option aside) in the wars we fight. And this seems only reasonable given the relative weakness of our Third World enemies in Vietnam and in the Middle East. But the fact is that we lost in Vietnam, and today, despite our vast power, we are only slogging along -- if admirably -- in Iraq against a hit-and-run insurgency that cannot stop us even as we seem unable to stop it. Yet no one -- including, very likely, the insurgents themselves -- believes that America lacks the raw power to defeat this insurgency if it wants to. So clearly it is America that determines the scale of this war. It is America, in fact, that fights so as to make a little room for an insurgency.
Certainly since Vietnam, America has increasingly practiced a policy of minimalism and restraint in war. And now this unacknowledged policy, which always makes a space for the enemy, has us in another long and rather passionless war against a weak enemy.
* * *

Why this new minimalism in war?
It began, I believe, in a late-20th-century event that transformed the world more profoundly than the collapse of communism: the world-wide collapse of white supremacy as a source of moral authority, political legitimacy and even sovereignty. This idea had organized the entire world, divided up its resources, imposed the nation-state system across the globe, and delivered the majority of the world's population into servitude and oppression. After World War II, revolutions across the globe, from India to Algeria and from Indonesia to the American civil rights revolution, defeated the authority inherent in white supremacy, if not the idea itself. And this defeat exacted a price: the West was left stigmatized by its sins. Today, the white West -- like Germany after the Nazi defeat -- lives in a kind of secular penitence in which the slightest echo of past sins brings down withering condemnation. There is now a cloud over white skin where there once was unquestioned authority.
I call this white guilt not because it is a guilt of conscience but because people stigmatized with moral crimes -- here racism and imperialism -- lack moral authority and so act guiltily whether they feel guilt or not.
They struggle, above all else, to dissociate themselves from the past sins they are stigmatized with. When they behave in ways that invoke the memory of those sins, they must labor to prove that they have not relapsed into their group's former sinfulness. So when America -- the greatest embodiment of Western power -- goes to war in Third World Iraq, it must also labor to dissociate that action from the great Western sin of imperialism. Thus, in Iraq we are in two wars, one against an insurgency and another against the past -- two fronts, two victories to win, one military, the other a victory of dissociation.
The collapse of white supremacy -- and the resulting white guilt -- introduced a new mechanism of power into the world: stigmatization with the evil of the Western past. And this stigmatization is power because it affects the terms of legitimacy for Western nations and for their actions in the world. In Iraq, America is fighting as much for the legitimacy of its war effort as for victory in war. In fact, legitimacy may be the more important goal. If a military victory makes us look like an imperialist nation bent on occupying and raping the resources of a poor brown nation, then victory would mean less because it would have no legitimacy. Europe would scorn. Conversely, if America suffered a military loss in Iraq but in so doing dispelled the imperialist stigma, the loss would be seen as a necessary sacrifice made to restore our nation's legitimacy. Europe's halls of internationalism would suddenly open to us.
Because dissociation from the racist and imperialist stigma is so tied to legitimacy in this age of white guilt, America's act of going to war can have legitimacy only if it seems to be an act of social work -- something that uplifts and transforms the poor brown nation (thus dissociating us from the white exploitations of old). So our war effort in Iraq is shrouded in a new language of social work in which democracy is cast as an instrument of social transformation bringing new institutions, new relations between men and women, new ideas of individual autonomy, new and more open forms of education, new ways of overcoming poverty -- war as the Great Society.
This does not mean that President Bush is insincere in his desire to bring democracy to Iraq, nor is it to say that democracy won't ultimately be socially transformative in Iraq. It's just that today the United States cannot go to war in the Third World simply to defeat a dangerous enemy.
White guilt makes our Third World enemies into colored victims, people whose problems -- even the tyrannies they live under -- were created by the historical disruptions and injustices of the white West. We must "understand" and pity our enemy even as we fight him. And, though Islamic extremism is one of the most pernicious forms of evil opportunism that has ever existed, we have felt compelled to fight it with an almost managerial minimalism that shows us to be beyond the passions of war -- and thus well dissociated from the avariciousness of the white supremacist past.
Anti-Americanism, whether in Europe or on the American left, works by the mechanism of white guilt. It stigmatizes America with all the imperialistic and racist ugliness of the white Western past so that America becomes a kind of straw man, a construct of Western sin. (The Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons were the focus of such stigmatization campaigns.) Once the stigma is in place, one need only be anti-American in order to be "good," in order to have an automatic moral legitimacy and power in relation to America. (People as seemingly desperate as President Jacques Chirac and the Rev. Al Sharpton are devoted pursuers of the moral high ground to be had in anti-Americanism.) This formula is the most dependable source of power for today's international left. Virtue and power by mere anti-Americanism. And it is all the more appealing since, unlike real virtues, it requires no sacrifice or effort -- only outrage at every slight echo of the imperialist past.
Today words like "power" and "victory" are so stigmatized with Western sin that, in many quarters, it is politically incorrect even to utter them. For the West, "might" can never be right. And victory, when won by the West against a Third World enemy, is always oppression. But, in reality, military victory is also the victory of one idea and the defeat of another. Only American victory in Iraq defeats the idea of Islamic extremism. But in today's atmosphere of Western contrition, it is impolitic to say so.
* * *

America and the broader West are now going through a rather tender era, a time when Western societies have very little defense against the moral accusations that come from their own left wings and from those vast stretches of nonwhite humanity that were once so disregarded.
Europeans are utterly confounded by the swelling Muslim populations in their midst. America has run from its own mounting immigration problem for decades, and even today, after finally taking up the issue, our government seems entirely flummoxed. White guilt is a vacuum of moral authority visited on the present by the shames of the past. In the abstract it seems a slight thing, almost irrelevant, an unconvincing proposition. Yet a society as enormously powerful as America lacks the authority to ask its most brilliant, wealthy and superbly educated minority students to compete freely for college admission with poor whites who lack all these things. Just can't do it.
Whether the problem is race relations, education, immigration or war, white guilt imposes so much minimalism and restraint that our worst problems tend to linger and deepen. Our leaders work within a double bind. If they do what is truly necessary to solve a problem -- win a war, fix immigration -- they lose legitimacy.
To maintain their legitimacy, they practice the minimalism that makes problems linger. What but minimalism is left when you are running from stigmatization as a "unilateralist cowboy"? And where is the will to truly regulate the southern border when those who ask for this are slimed as bigots? This is how white guilt defines what is possible in America. You go at a problem until you meet stigmatization, then you retreat into minimalism.
Possibly white guilt's worst effect is that it does not permit whites -- and nonwhites -- to appreciate something extraordinary: the fact that whites in America, and even elsewhere in the West, have achieved a truly remarkable moral transformation. One is forbidden to speak thus, but it is simply true. There are no serious advocates of white supremacy in America today, because whites see this idea as morally repugnant. If there is still the odd white bigot out there surviving past his time, there are millions of whites who only feel goodwill toward minorities.
This is a fact that must be integrated into our public life -- absorbed as new history -- so that America can once again feel the moral authority to seriously tackle its most profound problems. Then, if we decide to go to war, it can be with enough ferocity to win.
Mr. Steele, a research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, is author, most recently, of "White Guilt: How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era," published this week by HarperCollins.
URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114652895556640997.html
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WarriorMonk
05-02-2006, 12:43 PM
extremely good read.

Hellfish
05-02-2006, 01:11 PM
Very interesting read. When I have time I'll make comments.

Lazy Lob
05-02-2006, 01:39 PM
Good find.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
05-02-2006, 06:26 PM
racist! wait...good read couldn't agree more.

ElHombre
05-03-2006, 09:11 PM
bomb the wogs! bomb the wogs! :roll:

a note of logic in here. wouldn't the wholesale destruction of entire iraqi cities turn the population against us? isn't the rebuilding of iraq one of bush's stated goals for being in iraq in the first place?

this idea has been tried before. we put half-a-million troops in vietnam and dropped more bombs than we did in ww2. we even added chemical warfare into the mix. you can't say we didn't give it our all.

we still lost.

so explain to me how turning the whole of iraq into a barren wasteland will accomplish anything other than show people that we have lots of firepower?

in any case, it's interesting to see various reactions emerge as the cluster*** known as iraq continiues to unravel before its supporters eyes.

LaoSexMachine
05-03-2006, 10:39 PM
I don't understand why "whites" should be paying for something that a generation before them did(This is debatable). Liberals always tak about how bad their country is and you never hear any good comming from them.

Lt. James Anderson
05-03-2006, 11:28 PM
Guilt my azz! People who push that kind of thing are the sickest bastards on planet ... and people who fall for it are braniless, spineless bastards ...

Ea$y-8
05-03-2006, 11:39 PM
The article is right on. Since WWII we have never fought a war full force. However destroying whole Iraqi cities is not a good idea. The insurgents are digging their own graves by attacking Iraqi civilians who then rally behind the Coalition for protection. The thing you do is find the best strategy that will led you to victory as soon and with as little loss as possible and employing it.

Lt. James Anderson
05-04-2006, 12:21 AM
Well, there is a lot more to it than just fighting a war "at full force". There are a lot of reasons why we fought those wars the way we did and the white guilt isn't one of them. I'm not gonna go into it since that would get me banned quickly.

ElHombre
05-04-2006, 12:36 PM
The article is right on. Since WWII we have never fought a war full force. However destroying whole Iraqi cities is not a good idea. The insurgents are digging their own graves by attacking Iraqi civilians who then rally behind the Coalition for protection. The thing you do is find the best strategy that will led you to victory as soon and with as little loss as possible and employing it.

you need to learn a lot more history. you can start with some of the notes from my post about the vietnam war. you can then go back to korea and decide whether getting into a larger war with china would have been an acceptable risk. as far as a quick victory strategy in iraq, you know the best way to get your d**k out of a meat-grinder? don't put it in there in the first place.

Bert
05-04-2006, 12:50 PM
Guilt my azz! People who push that kind of thing are the sickest bastards on planet ... and people who fall for it are braniless, spineless bastards ...
Yeah, you can say that, and it's true, but there's a lot of people using that rhetoric, and lots of people falling for it. I think we read about mullahs yelling about the crusades and how they're somehow relevant centuries later every week now, don't we?

Hellfish
05-04-2006, 12:52 PM
you need to learn a lot more history. you can start with some of the notes from my post about the vietnam war. you can then go back to korea and decide whether getting into a larger war with china would have been an acceptable risk. as far as a quick victory strategy in iraq, you know the best way to get your d**k out of a meat-grinder? don't put it in there in the first place.

x2. I'm sure we wouldn't have liked seeing more Chinese in Vietnam than there already were too, which would have been the case if we fought a "full fledged" war there. It has nothing to do with the US being cowed by guilt - it has everything to do with the fact that Vietnam and Korea weren't worth wider wars with China or the Soviets.

Ea$y-8
05-04-2006, 02:32 PM
you need to learn a lot more history. you can start with some of the notes from my post about the vietnam war. you can then go back to korea and decide whether getting into a larger war with china would have been an acceptable risk. as far as a quick victory strategy in iraq, you know the best way to get your d**k out of a meat-grinder? don't put it in there in the first place.

LOL.

Going into NK was a good idea. We just advanced TOO fast and forgot to make a orderly move on the Yalu. This is why the Chinese knocked the 8th Army of blance the way it did. A lot of restrictions were placed on our troops (could not advance back into the north, and fighters could not fallow Chicom ones across the borders). IMO we should have gone up into NV and fought the NVA and VC there. I read a long article about why the US lost the Vietnam war it was well writen and saw the failure to invade the north as the reason. I think the US could have taken China in a war in Vietnam.

Limited wars are a idea that has proven ineffective for the USA. If you fear the results of a bigger war when fighting a "limited one" then it is best not to fight at all. As Heinz Guderian said "Don't tickle, smash!"

ElHombre
05-04-2006, 03:09 PM
Limited wars are a idea that has proven ineffective for the USA. If you fear the results of a bigger war when fighting a "limited one" then it is best not to fight at all. As Heinz Guderian said "Don't tickle, smash!"

take another look at hellfish6's reply. you wouldn't walk up to a live bomb and hit it with a mallet, would you? not every problem is a nail and not every solution needs a hammer. blowing iraq back to the stone age (about three weeks, IMO) is the dumbest idea around since the invasion's goals were conceived of in the first place.

Hellfish
05-04-2006, 03:38 PM
LOL.

Going into NK was a good idea. We just advanced TOO fast and forgot to make a orderly move on the Yalu. This is why the Chinese knocked the 8th Army of blance the way it did. A lot of restrictions were placed on our troops (could not advance back into the north, and fighters could not fallow Chicom ones across the borders). IMO we should have gone up into NV and fought the NVA and VC there. I read a long article about why the US lost the Vietnam war it was well writen and saw the failure to invade the north as the reason. I think the US could have taken China in a war in Vietnam.


Any credibility you had remaining just went down the toilet with all the other **** that you spout out of your ass. Its good that you seem to form your opinions entirely on single articles you read without consulting contradictory opinions, though. You'd make a great chickenhawk.

We couldn't even take the Vietnamese in Vietnam, let alone the Vietnamese with 10,000,000 Chinese troops. Yeah, we probably could have used nukes to do it, but I like having Chicago intact. I like the fact that the South China Sea doesn't have a green glow to it.

Belrick
05-04-2006, 06:31 PM
Any credibility you had remaining just went down the toilet with all the other **** that you spout out of your ass. Its good that you seem to form your opinions entirely on single articles you read without consulting contradictory opinions, though. You'd make a great chickenhawk.

We couldn't even take the Vietnamese in Vietnam, let alone the Vietnamese with 10,000,000 Chinese troops. Yeah, we probably could have used nukes to do it, but I like having Chicago intact. I like the fact that the South China Sea doesn't have a green glow to it.


The fact of the matter is that you win wars by either destroying there ability to fight or there will to fight. The US did neither in Vietnam, hence they lost. i.e they didnt win the hearts of the North Vietnamese any more than they prevented arms from falling into the vietcong or regular army.

America had two options then. Either withdraw or esculate as easy-8 said. Instead they chose neither and procrastinated. Always remember though that 1 million Vietnamese died to kill 50K US troops even though they had the advantage of terain. 10 million Chinese troops would of died like flies however arms would of still been supplied by Russia therefor esculation would of have to included fighting Russia as well as China.

To win in Iraq then the US must destroy the Iraqis will to fight as they will never be able to destroy there ability to fight unless they esculate the conflict into the entire ME and put grave threats upon Russia. Would China step in if that were to occur?

praetorian6
05-04-2006, 06:37 PM
There's more to winning a war then just crushing your enemies. If you don't win over the people as well then the victorious will never be able to leave.

ibstolidude
05-04-2006, 06:42 PM
There's more to winning a war then just crushing your enemies. don't forget seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentation of their women.

And also that other thing you said about people, and stuff.

Hellfish
05-04-2006, 06:47 PM
don't forget seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentation of their women.

And also that other thing you said about people, and stuff.

Hahahaha... you're alright. :)

Lt. James Anderson
05-04-2006, 06:51 PM
In the book Counterinsurgency warfare it is explained quite nicely. There are four things/ laws that have to be followed for the counterinsurgency to succeed:

- support of the population (it is as important for the counterinsurgent as much as for the insurgent)

- support for the counterinsurgent is gained through "an active minority"

- support from the population is conditional (the counterinsurgent has to demonstrate that he has the will, means and ability to win as early as possible to get the support from the population as well as through political, economic and other means )

- intensity of efforts and vastness of means to ensure success

praetorian6
05-04-2006, 07:03 PM
don't forget seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentation of their women.

I forgot all about that movie! I second Hellfish's comment.


In the book Counterinsurgency warfare it is explained quite nicely. There are four things/ laws that have to be followed for the counterinsurgency to succeed...

That's exactly what I was hinting at, you are just more motivated to type than I am.p-)

ElHombre
05-04-2006, 07:08 PM
I forgot all about that movie! I second Hellfish's comment.

what movie was that? it sounds familiar...

Hellfish
05-04-2006, 07:11 PM
Aw c'mon, Hombre! Conan!

ibstolidude
05-04-2006, 07:12 PM
what movie was that? it sounds familiar...
"Mr Smith Goes to Washington" with Jimmy Stewart

ElHombre
05-04-2006, 07:16 PM
well i now have an excuse to go rent it. :lol:

Laworkerbee
05-04-2006, 07:52 PM
you know the best way to get your d**k out of a meat-grinder? don't put it in there in the first place.

Another thing my Texan grandfather would have said, your on a roll today man!

Nice read I'm still trying to take it all in.

StukaJr
05-04-2006, 09:22 PM
The fact of the matter is that you win wars by either destroying there ability to fight or there will to fight. The US did neither in Vietnam, hence they lost. i.e they didnt win the hearts of the North Vietnamese any more than they prevented arms from falling into the vietcong or regular army.


US did not have a lot of nesessary factors - no intelligence close to infiltrating the NV high command, no understanding of the commitment of the enemy - the most important factor from the victory in WWII is missing. Northern Spies were everywhere - from the villages to the brothels of Saigon.

How do you win hearts and minds of the people when the conflict claims over four million civillians dead on both sides of the border? How do you win the hearts and minds of the people while supporting the remnant colonial government in a country with centuries old history of bloody resistence against colonial rule? McNamarra went into Vietnam in the 90's and was straight out told by his former equivalent on the opposing side that US was considered an invader and that they were fighting to the last man - in the documentary "Fog of War" he basically admits to not have an understanding of the enemy they were engaging. That's coming from the ex-Secretary of Defense no less.



Always remember though that 1 million Vietnamese died to kill 50K US troops even though they had the advantage of terain.


You are forgetting that South Vietnam had 3 to 1 force advantage over the North Vietnam. You are also forgetting that US did not fight in the Vietnam War alone - it was aided by multiple ally nations and Vietnamese themselves. If you account combat losses amongst the South Vietnamese side, the US and other allies - you will not get a very wide discrepancy in the losses. Also, US lost almost 60 thousand KIA's to achieve nothing - NV lost 1 million KIA to re-unite an entire nation... Wars are about outcomes and not about not suffering as many losses.

Finally, a more direct action (like invasion of the North Vietnam) suggests higher losses - not lower.



10 million Chinese troops would of died like flies however arms would of still been supplied by Russia therefor esculation would of have to included fighting Russia as well as China.


Russia did not supply China - Soviet Union relations with China (and visa versa) soured while Stalin was still alive. Most of the Chinese clones were copied from the equipment captured in the multiple border skirmishes that almost turned into full scale conflicts - for example, T-62. I somehow doubt that Soviet Union had motives nor alliegence to go head to head with the US over China nor Vietnam.



To win in Iraq then the US must destroy the Iraqis will to fight as they will never be able to destroy there ability to fight unless they esculate the conflict into the entire ME and put grave threats upon Russia. Would China step in if that were to occur?

It would be easy if US was simply fighting Iraqis - how do you break the will to fight of the foreign mercenaries and that of the extremists traveling into the Iraq from all over the World? How do you destroy someone's will to fight? Other than by blowing off limbs or putting giant cavities through their life supporting organs? You are talking about a different culture and view on life - these people surrender their will to the overzealous religious belief and predominantly live to die.

There is no winning hearts and minds - there is only Killing enough of them so there is not enough left for an insurgency. Firebombing of Tokyo and other Japanese cities during WWII is a perfect example of how to win the war - putting our soldiers on the ground in the cities where 90% of ex-enemy's army were sent to roam the streets is not...

"Limited War" does not mean not enough tanks and airplanes - that would be too easy. "Limited War" is when it ran by politicians, PR and media instead of Military High Command.

Lt. James Anderson
05-04-2006, 10:15 PM
You win some, you lose some ...

Asheren
05-05-2006, 05:52 AM
StukaJr you made standart mistake you overestimated amount of VC supporters. Many of them supported VC because they had no other choice. In situation when US and its allies failed to provide protection to peoples and wide use of terror tactic by VC what other choice they had. When US command finaly woke up VC already killed or terrorized anyone who opposed them in villages.

Limited war is possible only when population is not supporting enemy or you are able to convince locals that you are able to protect them from insurgents retaliation.

In other situation you had no other choice than to pour enough troops to control every city in country. If you can kill them faster than they can recriut new insurgents keeping your loses at acceptable level for your society its a matter of time. Problem is that western society is unable to withstand prolonged conflict.

Durandal
05-05-2006, 09:11 AM
bomb the wogs! bomb the wogs!

Fine by me. Sit back with a gin and tonic and enjoy the show.

StukaJr
05-05-2006, 02:28 PM
StukaJr you made standart mistake you overestimated amount of VC supporters. Many of them supported VC because they had no other choice. In situation when US and its allies failed to provide protection to peoples and wide use of terror tactic by VC what other choice they had. When US command finaly woke up VC already killed or terrorized anyone who opposed them in villages.


You must have misread something, because I did not mention anything about civilian support for the North Vietnamese in the South. I did, however, state that North Vietnamese spies had extensive opperations in the South Vietnam and very close to the US Command - the latter expanded lots of effort to insert spies into the North but failed on every occasion. Considering that many of these spies were part of the everyday city life or vast support network for the US army - it was US personel themselves whom supported these spies. I'm not talking about VC's shimming through the jungle - I'm talking about high class brothels serving only the officer cadre where many girls were in fact spies and very successful ones... I've read interviews with at least two such spies and they've opperated throughout the conflict without ever being made.




Limited war is possible only when population is not supporting enemy or you are able to convince locals that you are able to protect them from insurgents retaliation.

In other situation you had no other choice than to pour enough troops to control every city in country. If you can kill them faster than they can recriut new insurgents keeping your loses at acceptable level for your society its a matter of time. Problem is that western society is unable to withstand prolonged conflict.

How is that different from what is taking place in Iraq right now? Unless Coalition begins to kill more insurgents than boys coming of age in Iraq and neighboring Arab and Persian countries - the insurgence will never run out of recruits. If killing is the only solution than the War should revert to the tactics of the WWII - systematic extermination of the key civilian population clusters as the means of bringing the nation in the condition of armistice and unconditional surrender (which Iraq never did btw) - then sending ground troops in to control the remains of the population by planned rebuilding, bringing money into the economy etc... The rebuilding is slowly on the way. Economic opportunities are limited. Millions of able bodied men are roaming the streets and the society is divided into so many castes it's no wonder there is no unity.

annihilation
05-05-2006, 02:34 PM
White guilt, never had any. Don't feel ashame of the past in anyway (well with the exception of the downfall of the roman empire). Figure everything has been a learning purpuse.
But the article does explain alot....

annihilation
05-05-2006, 02:37 PM
If killing is the only solution than the War should revert to the tactics of the WWII - systematic extermination of the key civilian population clusters as the means of bringing the nation in the condition of armistice and unconditional surrender (which Iraq never did btw) - then sending ground troops in to control the remains of the population by planned rebuilding, bringing money into the economy etc... The rebuilding is slowly on the way. Economic opportunities are limited. Millions of able bodied men are roaming the streets and the society is divided into so many castes it's no wonder there is no unity.

Really thats the only form of fighting i believe in. Short of this its not worth fighting. I just don't understand limited war I guess. But I always thought, if you go to war you go to war. You do anything and everything, only thing that matters is if you win. That being said Im also a big believe of trying to avoid the situation of getting into a war in the first place because it calls for so much death, destruction and lack of restraint.

Laconian
05-05-2006, 02:58 PM
The decision by LBJ not to turn Vietnam into a full scale total war had more to do with his desire to keep the war small scale and work on his social programs, than it did to avoid war with either the Soviets or China or both. The US believed still in monolithic communism, the domino principle and a Soviet threat to western Europe at the time of Vietnam. It was a concern/plan to fight Vietnam as a secondary front to keep a strategic reserve ready meet Soviet aggression at the Iron Curtain.

That is one of the reasons that (with very few exceptions) the National Guard and Reserves were not used in SE Asia. Again, the other was so Johnson could fight the war "on the cheap" and still fund what has become the welfare state of the US, his Great Society. White guilt had nothing to do with it.