What has happened to the USA??

[Ea$y-8]

Okay, there a few things I have been wanting to say.


The complete ignorance and lack of patriotism of some Americans around me is shocking to me. It seems they really don't care about the United States of America the country which has given them and myself so much. I hear stuff like "the USA should pull out of Iraq" and "have you seen Michael Moore's movie?" I tell them the about how AQ is in Iraq and we are fighting the same type of people we are in Afghanistan and how Osama Bin Laden wants the US to leave Iraq. And some of them will even say they agree with Osama (!!!!!!!).

What has happened? I remember the days when they would have really inspiring recruiting posters but now they just talk about college money (they are starting to go back to the patriotic theme but you know what I mean...) In ROTC the recruiters come in and all they talk about is college money, benfits and stuff like that.

To all the anti-war people I tell them about Giap and his remarks about the protesters after tet. They still don't care and call and tell me I am going against free speech. I explain to them that the anti-war movement encourages the insurgents we face in Iraq and they still don't care.

Will America ever return to its proud state like it was in the 40s or 50s. Will Americans ever again bond together to defeat a enemy that seaks to destroy us??

What are your thoughts?

[Adz]

No....Americas time was the 20th century, just like it was britains before that and then religion and then rome etc, etc.

It'd take a **** load of terrorist attacks or even attacks by the iranian or iraqi governments to make america 'bond' together again, just like september 11. So i hope america gets weaker just to prevent that :)

[usmajunk]

What you are seeing here is globalization.
not America degenerating, but other nations being put on par with America within our own borders.
It's no longer PC to say America is great, cause that implies everyone else is bad.
Thus, America is losing its cultural identity, and with that goes any kind of devotion you would have to said nation or identity.

at least thats my thought

[Ea$y-8]

I just found this thread and it will probably get us far.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63313

All these little anti-war people should be required to read this.

[Adz]

Its so big I stopped reading after the first 4 lines

[GroznyConquerer]

Okay, there a few things I have been wanting to say.


The complete ignorance and lack of patriotism of some Americans around me is shocking to me. It seems they really don't care about the United States of America the country which has given them and myself so much. I hear stuff like "the USA should pull out of Iraq" and "have you seen Michael Moore's movie?" I tell them the about how AQ is in Iraq and we are fighting the same type of people we are in Afghanistan and how Osama Bin Laden wants the US to leave Iraq. And some of them will even say they agree with Osama (!!!!!!!).

What has happened? I remember the days when they would have really inspiring recruiting posters but now they just talk about college money (they are starting to go back to the patriotic theme but you know what I mean...) In ROTC the recruiters come in and all they talk about is college money, benfits and stuff like that.

To all the anti-war people I tell them about Giap and his remarks about the protesters after tet. They still don't care and call and tell me I am going against free speech. I explain to them that the anti-war movement encourages the insurgents we face in Iraq and they still don't care.

Will America ever return to its proud state like it was in the 40s or 50s. Will Americans ever again bond together to defeat a enemy that seaks to destroy us??

What are your thoughts?The problem is that The Constitution is being broken left and right, Republicans and Democrats are not for Your American Constitution, (Thats what being American/PATRIOTIC is REALY About) USA is being pulled into The New World Order, under the descise of "War On Terror"

[Bigkat_l]

I'm going to be crucified for this, but:

The world, for the last 150 or so years has been going through a technological adolescence. The Industrial revolutions seen in europe and the United states during the 19th century brought about the form of totalitarianism that we know as free enterprise, or capitalism. The inherent values of this totalitarian system are those of self-preservation and accumulation of material (monetary, property, etc.) This highly competetive set of ideals and values is what has catapulted these first nations foward, giving us the exponential growth that we have seen in communication, transpotation...etc.

This technological growth has brought us great new ways of improving life, but at the same time, this unabated and blind persuit of "better, faster, more" has also made the United States one of the most militaristic and violent nations the world has seen (in terms of numbers of people killed since the 19th century). Militaristic economic colonialism on the part of this country can be traced back to the early central american wars that were fought during the period after the civil war. And since the end of WWII, It has also made it the leading state sponsor of terror in the world.

Will America ever return to its proud state like it was in the 40s or 50s. Will Americans ever again bond together to defeat a enemy that seaks to destroy us??


I surely hope that it won't, and by all indications, it shouldn't. There exists now (thankfully) the ability for other nations in the world to express thier dissatisfaction with the United States, and its being heard now more than it ever has been.

The "unamerican" attitudes that are becoming more audible in the world are because of globalization and the continuation of communication growth. It is important to remember, however, that 75% of the world's population is still non-industrialized. This period of "unpatrioticness" I think is simply the fact that some of the world is FINALLY being given the voice to speak of the atrocities that the private business interests of the United States have committed over the past six decades.

Like I previously mentioned in the "Iran war" thread, I think that this is all leading to an apogee, where enough of the american public will become aware and take action to completely reform and dismantle the conflated relationship that exists between our government and private businesses.

I would be willing to place a heavy and hopeful bet that the United States will not last through this century, at least as it exists today. Hopefully this point will come sooner than later, at a minimum cost of life.

[koutch]

Why don't you serve as an example big man (Ea$y-8), join and get shipped to Iraq. its very easy to sit in a warm home in front of a computer with a bag of chips and a beer, waving the stars and stripes and complaining about lack of patriotism.

[rolls]

Why don't you serve as an example big man (Ea$y-8), join and get shipped to Iraq. its very easy to sit in a warm home in front of a computer with a bag of chips and a beer, waving the stars and stripes and complaining about lack of patriotism.

Well someone has to be at home to make the money to send the lads abroad don't they dumbass.

[Adz]

Do they let underage people in the army now koutch?

[Slug69]

I don't think it would have been General Giaps decision to surrender. I can't believe the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong would just up and quit after such sacrifice. Giap may have quit, but his political masters wouldn't.

Read Eisenhowers or download his farewell speech and you might come to understand what has happened to the United States.

The US is allowing corporations to dictate US foreign policy. The people of the US need to know what is happening overseas in their name. Things might be all hunky dory at the moment because we are all relatively well off, but if the crap hits the fan financially, people will start asking why?

I pity the next President of the US.

The support for the war might have been bigger and more lasting if the reasons for going to war weren't so muddy to start with. This is a cluster----.

The insane belief you can control a country the size of Alabama with two hundred thousand troops (Two football stadiums worth - and not all of these are combat troops,) beggars the imagination. A country with land borders with more than 4 countries with populations hostile to the US.

The generals have dropped the ball.

The massive support the US had from the rest of the world when fighting Al Queada in Afghanistan has been pissed away to a large extent with this war in Iraq.

[XShipRider]

The US is allowing corporations to dictate US foreign policy.

Corporations have been guiding domestic policy since the rail, land and
cattle barons of the 1800s. Only more recently, post-WWII as you
stated, have multi-nationals expanded this to foreign policy. I guess
this is a natural extension of globalization.

Though I do think it won't be just US policy 'dictated' by these
corporations as their ownership, e.g. stockholders, become more
globally non-aligned.

As for the patriotism, I have no explanation. I never understood those
who scoff at the Pledge of Allegiance when the very pledge reiterates
your rights as codified in the Constitution. Too many believe patriotism
is akin to ultra-nationalism in drag.

[Hellfish]

Okay, there a few things I have been wanting to say.

What has happened? I remember the days when they would have really inspiring recruiting posters but now they just talk about college money (they are starting to go back to the patriotic theme but you know what I mean...) In ROTC the recruiters come in and all they talk about is college money, benfits and stuff like that.

How the hell can you remember those days? You're 16. And suprise, suprise, I'd say a good 75% of soldiers are serving for a short 2-4 year stint primarily for the college money.



Will America ever return to its proud state like it was in the 40s or 50s. Will Americans ever again bond together to defeat a enemy that seaks to destroy us??

What proud state? You didn't live back then - all you know is innuendo about those days, probably because so much media from those days were screened for content. Not everything was ideal as "Leave it to Beaver". I see that same time frame as one of ignorance and blindness - when the Army was gutted and everyone lived shiny happy lives behind a curtain of nuclear fire. It was the time when white flight took over the suburbs, McCarthyism reigned, when civil rights were pissed on, when people already were fully capable of ignoring a war (Korea). It wasn't the hippies that destroyed those days of ideal bliss for you, it was the government when they began lying about the conduct of the war in Vietnam. Right up until Tet, Vietnam was a very popular war.

I think your ignorance and, indeed, your lack of experience in the real world, is evident.

[Futile Talisman]

How the hell can you remember those days? You're 16. And suprise, suprise, I'd say a good 75% of soldiers are serving for a short 2-4 year stint primarily for the college money.



What proud state? You didn't live back then - all you know is innuendo about those days, probably because so much media from those days were screened for content. Not everything was ideal as "Leave it to Beaver". I see that same time frame as one of ignorance and blindness - when the Army was gutted and everyone lived shiny happy lives behind a curtain of nuclear fire. It was the time when white flight took over the suburbs, McCarthyism reigned, when civil rights were pissed on, when people already were fully capable of ignoring a war (Korea). It wasn't the hippies that destroyed those days of ideal bliss for you, it was the government when they began lying about the conduct of the war in Vietnam. Right up until Tet, Vietnam was a very popular war.

I think your ignorance and, indeed, your lack of experience in the real world, is evident.


Well said, cannot sum it up any better than that.

@easy 8, your enthusiasm is great, but your post is full of assumptions and it implies that you know in detail what life was like "back then."

As Hellfish states, the past can often be portrayed in a way that the entity seeking to frame it wants you to view it. Through this prism we have a sense of the past but to condem present day America from this distorted and manipulted view is bound to cause serious flaws in your conclusions.

Society and specifically the United Stated in a exercise of comparing and contrasting different time periods would take far more research, investigation, and thus more of an understanding than I suspect you have done and have. This would have to include social, economic and political factors, statistics, and figures from multiple sources, and still, you would have to move forward with knowledge your sources are biased to begin with.

Again, nice topic for analysis but it far more complex IMHO.

FT

[titget]

Agreed...with Hellfish and FT

But I will say I'd take a kid (sorry young adult) with your passion and patriotism for this country any day over these pathetic little sh^ts I see that piss on everything our flag stands for...it's nice to see a 16 year old who cares about his country......Your heart is in the right place Ea$y8

[Durandal]

Okay, there a few things I have been wanting to say.


The complete ignorance and lack of patriotism of some Americans around me is shocking to me. It seems they really don't care about the United States of America the country which has given them and myself so much. I hear stuff like "the USA should pull out of Iraq" and "have you seen Michael Moore's movie?" I tell them the about how AQ is in Iraq and we are fighting the same type of people we are in Afghanistan and how Osama Bin Laden wants the US to leave Iraq. And some of them will even say they agree with Osama (!!!!!!!).

What has happened? I remember the days when they would have really inspiring recruiting posters but now they just talk about college money (they are starting to go back to the patriotic theme but you know what I mean...) In ROTC the recruiters come in and all they talk about is college money, benfits and stuff like that.

To all the anti-war people I tell them about Giap and his remarks about the protesters after tet. They still don't care and call and tell me I am going against free speech. I explain to them that the anti-war movement encourages the insurgents we face in Iraq and they still don't care.

Will America ever return to its proud state like it was in the 40s or 50s. Will Americans ever again bond together to defeat a enemy that seaks to destroy us??

What are your thoughts?

You remember back in the day?

You are 16.

You want to know what the problem with the United States is? After World War II we decided to build a HUGE military complex, we have allowed corporation to rule this country, and we let the government, the people that supposedly work FOR us, to rule and tax us heavily.

THAT is what happened to America.

Of course, Americans, on a whole are either ignorant or apathetic (or both) that this continues to go on. We no longer teach our children civics so they have absolutely no idea the history of this nation and their part of the puzzle.

I mean, why should we be in Iraq if most people in the United States (5 out of 7) have no ƒucking clue where it is? How can we hope to change things when people do not even know who the founding fathers were OR where Ohio is on a U.S. map?

[Slug69]

Agreed...with Hellfish and FT

But I will say I'd take a kid (sorry young adult) with your passion and patriotism for this country any day over these pathetic little sh^ts I see that piss on everything our flag stands for...it's nice to see a 16 year old who cares about his country......Your heart is in the right place Ea$y8

What does your flag stand for? Do you know?

[Slug69]

Again, nice topic for analysis but it far more complex IMHO.

FT

Christ man, now there is a profound statement. Way to go out on a limb.

You could just about say that about any thread in this forum.

[Futile Talisman]

Christ man, now there is a profound statement. Way to go out on a limb.

You could just about say that about any thread in this forum.

Huh? wanna clarify? I was speaking specifically about the prospect of comparing a society as it evolves over time. Every post here would take that amount of analysis? No pal, you are wrong.

FT

Edit: just saw your reply to Bridget, you are the one making snap judgements and going out on the proverbial limb.

Your quick on the edit button too I see...........LOL

[Slug69]

Huh? wanna clarify? I was speaking specifically about the prospect of comparing a society as it evolves over time. Every post here would take that amount of analysis? No pal, you are wrong.

FT

Edit: just saw your reply to Bridget, you are the one making snap judgements and going out on the proverbial limb.

Your quick on the edit button too I see...........LOL

Not quick enough...sigh.

Good night, bed time.

[titget]

What you just said is an outrage.

You only care for your country if you support a war based on lies? Both Vietnam and this war in Iraq were based on lies.

You just prove that patriotism truly is the last refuge of a scoundrel, shame on you.

Hey sh^tbag>...What the F^ck do you know! Based on Lies?????Thank you for you vast knowledge on the Iraq war you prick..




Patriotism is not that abundant in this world right now....but something our men and women who are serving need so badly...You think what you want about this war...but Do Not piss on ones Patriotism....We are at war...so as a proud American I will stand behind those who are willing to lay down their lives for this fight....

You are an outrage....and by the sound of your post an ignorant asshole.

*edit* I see you changed your post ..ass.*

[Futile Talisman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slug69
What you just said is an outrage.

You only care for your country if you support a war based on lies? Both Vietnam and this war in Iraq were based on lies.

You just prove that patriotism truly is the last refuge of a scoundrel, shame on you.




Hey sh^tbag>...What the F^ck do you know! Based on Lies?????Thank you for you vast knowledge on the Iraq war you prick..

Patriotism is not that abundant in this world right now....but something our men and women who are serving need so badly...You think what you want about this war...but Do Not piss on ones Patriotism....We are at war...so as a proud American I will stand behind those who are willing to lay down their lives for this fight....

You are an outrage....and by the sound of your post an ignorant asshole.

lol:) Bridget was even quicker with the quote button.

Frikkin Great,

FT

[Slug69]

Hey sh^tbag>...What the F^ck do you know! Based on Lies?????Thank you for you vast knowledge on the Iraq war you prick..

Patriotism is not that abundant in this world right now....but something our men and women who are serving need so badly...You think what you want about this war...but Do Not piss on ones Patriotism....We are at war...so as a proud American I will stand behind those who are willing to lay down their lives for this fight....

You are an outrage....and by the sound of your post an ignorant asshole.

You have every right to be angry with me. I misread your post, then fixed it to something more suitable but now I realize I should have just left it as it was.

I did not piss on Ea$y-8's patriotism. Just your idea of it.

Do you also stand behind the people who send those soldiers to war?

If you still believe the war on Iraq wasn't founded on lies, fine. It just proves the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Buckeye67]

Hey sh^tbag>...What the F^ck do you know! Based on Lies?????Thank you for you vast knowledge on the Iraq war you prick..




Patriotism is not that abundant in this world right now....but something our men and women who are serving need so badly...You think what you want about this war...but Do Not piss on ones Patriotism....We are at war...so as a proud American I will stand behind those who are willing to lay down their lives for this fight....

You are an outrage....and by the sound of your post an ignorant asshole.

*edit* I see you changed your post ..ass.*

He's a beauty. Check out his wonderful insights in this thread http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80022&page=2

[moughoun]

You remember back in the day?

You are 16.

You want to know what the problem with the United States is? After World War II we decided to build a HUGE military complex, we have allowed corporation to rule this country, and we let the government, the people that supposedly work FOR us, to rule and tax us heavily.

THAT is what happened to America.

Of course, Americans, on a whole are either ignorant or apathetic (or both) that this continues to go on. We no longer teach our children civics so they have absolutely no idea the history of this nation and their part of the puzzle.

I mean, why should we be in Iraq if most people in the United States (5 out of 7) have no ƒucking clue where it is? How can we hope to change things when people do not even know who the founding fathers were OR where Ohio is on a U.S. map?
QFT.............

[Durandal]

I think the sad thing about this thread is how its disintegrated into childish banter and claims of patriotism.

One of the other problems with America. Most of the the people that simply want to pursue life and happiness are constantly struggling between the damn left, hippies, and socialists that want to control everything I do and the moronic right that are no different than the left other than they want to do it a different way and both actually think most of us care.

You have one side that wants us all to be atheists and the other who wants us all to learn intelligent design.

Its more complex than that, but that makes it no less inane.

You all spend all this energy botching at PEOPLE as if they were somehow the problem. Who cares if Citizen X wants us to be in Iraq or not. Their view point is no less valid than the person who wants to be in Iraq.

I for one would like to have seen us NEVER go to Iraq? Why? The cost. Yep, that's it. The cost. I think it is FAR more important for us to have focused on Afghanistan and do the right thing there than go into Iraq and cost us so much. We have a Space Agency that has had its budget cut. We no longer have massive science grants and push nearly as much research as we did under Reagan and Clinton. We see South Korea beat us in Stem Cell research.

And now we have a President lecture Congress not to spend too much money on preventing/limiting the effects of a pandemic in the U.S. when he had no problems signing the last Highway Omnibus with all that FAT.

Well, the U.S. is not staying on top by invading Iraq. The U.S. stays on top by pumping cash into science and research and patents.

But you guys go on arguing whether or not some dork protesting over a military conflict is patriotic or not or wether a 16 year old who bitches about the same protester IS patriotic.

[moughoun]

Hey sh^tbag>...What the F^ck do you know! Based on Lies?????Thank you for you vast knowledge on the Iraq war you prick..




Patriotism is not that abundant in this world right now....but something our men and women who are serving need so badly...You think what you want about this war...but Do Not piss on ones Patriotism....We are at war...so as a proud American I will stand behind those who are willing to lay down their lives for this fight....

You are an outrage....and by the sound of your post an ignorant asshole.

*edit* I see you changed your post ..ass.*
while I may not agree with him, there is an over abundence of chairbourne patriotism on here.....my philosophy is simple, don't make bull**** Rambo wannabe comment's about war/military/killing people in war, unless you yourself are going to strap on a uniform, that's just me though.

[Futile Talisman]

I think the sad thing about this thread is how its disintegrated into childish banter and claims of patriotism.


But you guys go on arguing whether or not some dork protesting over a military conflict is patriotic or not or wether a 16 year old who bitches about the same protester IS patriotic.

Who questioned the patriotism of Easy 8? I think it was his conclusions, not his evident love of country which is apparent and deserves praise.

FT

[titget]

You have every right to be angry with me. I misread your post, then fixed it to something more suitable but now I realize I should have just left it as it was.

I did not piss on Ea$y-8's patriotism. Just your idea of it.

Do you also stand behind the people who send those soldiers to war?

If you still believe the war on Iraq wasn't founded on lies, fine. It just proves the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Do i stand behind those who sent the soldiers to war???


I stand behind my country, and all those who wear the uniform...You know the ones who re-enlist, the ones who return to the fight even with artificial limbs...the ones who have lost brothers and sisters, and want to continue this fight....The ones who see the good we are doing over there and want to finish what we started, not pack up and run like all the pussies would have us do.

Based on lies? Well we might never know the answer to that....and that's not really my main concern. What's most important to me is supporting those who put their asses on the line everyday in the name of freedom. They are the true heroes, not the pathetic assholes like you do nothing except whine and moan about this war.

I hope I answered your question:)

[Buckeye67]

You remember back in the day?

You are 16.

I'm almost 40, I remember a "back in the day". :p

You want to know what the problem with the United States is? After World War II we decided to build a HUGE military complex

Given the circumstances of the time, I don't know that we had much of a choice. I also don't think that a "HUGE military complex" in and of itself is a "problem".

..we have allowed corporation to rule this country, and we let the government, the people that supposedly work FOR us, to rule and tax us heavily.

That's been going on since this country was founded though.

THAT is what happened to America.

I submit there's a bit more than that.

We no longer teach our children civics so they have absolutely no idea the history of this nation and their part of the puzzle.

This I agree with.

How can we hope to change things when people do not even know who the founding fathers were OR where Ohio is on a U.S. map?

Agree with this sentiment too.

[Slug69]

Do i stand behind those who sent the soldiers to war???

:)

I don't think I have ever seen anyone on this forum put **** on soldiers who are doing duty. You won't see it from me either.

Durandal has posted better than me tonight.

[titget]

while I may not agree with him, there is an over abundence of chairbourne patriotism on here.....my philosophy is simple, don't make bull**** Rambo wannabe comment's about war/military/killing people in war, unless you yourself are going to strap on a uniform, that's just me though.


Allright..I knew this was comming...please tell me how my comment was Rambo like? One can not be patriotic without ever putting on a uniform? Though I may have never served, I support the troops a hell of a lot more than just putting a bumber sticker on my car....I send out lots of care packages, and am working on a fundraiser for our wounded guys at WRMH...so please don't give me the 'you can't speak until you put on a uniform"bullsh^t

Where did I make comments about killing people?? All I said was I support those who serving 100% and I stand behind them...It's very foolish to throw out the "put on a uniform " comment to a person who has love and pride for their country and those who serve.

[Hellfish]

There's nothing wrong with patriotism as long as you know what you're talking about. To some, patriotism is blind faith, to some patriotism is based on the past or tradition and to some patriotism is based on ideals. I think all three aspects (there may be more I haven't mentioned) are abundant, but I think adherents of each tend to kind of infight with each other. I'm patriotic of course, but blind faith in my government/fellow citizens/country has no part of that. I'm patriotic because of the ideals America represents, my own experiences serving in ****hole countries, and because of my family's history of serving the country.

I'm not patriotic because I think the government is above all or that the president is the man in charge and he should be put on a pedastal (Republican or Democrat - or any other politician for that matter). I think we need to question our elected rulers and we need to question our policies and our collective judgement. Natually, I don't get along with those people that hold up infallibility as a cornerstone of their patriotism.

[titget]

I don't think I have ever seen anyone on this forum put **** on soldiers who are doing duty. You won't see it from me either.

Durandal has posted better than me tonight.

YOu're an ass

[Durandal]

Who questioned the patriotism of Easy 8? I think it was his conclusions, not his evident love of country which is apparent and deserves praise.

FT

I never said he had no love for his country. I think he is mistaken in coming to the conclusion that people who want the U.S. to pull out of Iraq are not patriotic and that his vision of what the "past" (the past being the last 16 years *snort*) is somewhat flawed.

We also have a tendency to slip into a Cold War mentality, when in reality, most of our history was spent trying to AVOID situation like Iraq. Yeah, we'll fight a big war if we have to, but there was a point in time when being an American meant focusing on America and not selling out to some 2 bit dictatorship so we could have an airforce base.

Nope...Iraq cost us a lot and for little gain and if saying that makes me somehow less patriotic in some dumb@ss 16 year-old's eyes...well, then he has a LOT to learn...

[Durandal]

Durandal has posted better than me tonight.

Don't drag me into your realm of BS man.

[moughoun]

Allright..I knew this was comming...please tell me how my comment was Rambo like? One can not be patriotic without ever putting on a uniform? Though I may have never served, I support the troops a hell of a lot more than just putting a bumber sticker on my car....I send out lots of care packages, and am working on a fundraiser for our wounded guys at WRMH...so please don't give me the 'you can't speak until you put on a uniform"bullsh^t

Where did I make comments about killing people?? All I said was I support those who serving 100% and I stand behind them...It's very foolish to throw out the "put on a uniform " comment to a person who has love and pride for their country and those who serve.
if you read what I said very very carefully, you'll see it was not directed at youp-).......unless you're a teenage boy who think's that just because he has an M4gery and can shoot well, he could single handedly go to A stan and wipe out what remains of Al'qaida?.

[moughoun]

There's nothing wrong with patriotism as long as you know what you're talking about. To some, patriotism is blind faith, to some patriotism is based on the past or tradition and to some patriotism is based on ideals. I think all three aspects (there may be more I haven't mentioned) are abundant, but I think adherents of each tend to kind of infight with each other. I'm patriotic of course, but blind faith in my government/fellow citizens/country has no part of that. I'm patriotic because of the ideals America represents, my own experiences serving in ****hole countries, and because of my family's history of serving the country.

I'm not patriotic because I think the government is above all or that the president is the man in charge and he should be put on a pedastal (Republican or Democrat - or any other politician for that matter). I think we need to question our elected rulers and we need to question our policies and our collective judgement. Natually, I don't get along with those people that hold up infallibility as a cornerstone of their patriotism.
nicely said, I think some people mix up blind nationalism with Patriotism too much

[titget]

if you read what I said very very carefully, you'll see it was not directed at youp-).......unless you're a teenage boy who think's that just because he has an M4gery and can shoot well, he could single handedly go to A stan and wipe out what remains of Al'qaida?.


Ohh...whoopsy! I saw my quote and then your statement:oops:
Sorry, Slug got me all worked up and pissed off....my apologies to you moughoun.....
I thought I was going to have to kick your ass.:-D

[Luno]

bridget
don`t lower yourself to the level of the one that insults you..
So don't reply to flamebait

[Futile Talisman]

I never said he had no love for his country. I think he is mistaken in coming to the conclusion that people who want the U.S. to pull out of Iraq are not patriotic and that his vision of what the "past" (the past being the last 16 years *snort*) is somewhat flawed.

We also have a tendency to slip into a Cold War mentality, when in reality, most of our history was spent trying to AVOID situation like Iraq. Yeah, we'll fight a big war if we have to, but there was a point in time when being an American meant focusing on America and not selling out to some 2 bit dictatorship so we could have an airforce base.

Nope...Iraq cost us a lot and for little gain and if saying that makes me somehow less patriotic in some dumb@ss 16 year-old's eyes...well, then he has a LOT to learn...

I misunderstood your post Durandal, my bad, good set of points you expressed by the way, don't completely agree with all of it, but well thought out and definetly has given me food for thought.

Regards,

FT

[moughoun]

Ohh...whoopsy! I saw my quote and then your statement:oops:
Sorry, Slug got me all worked up and pissed off....my apologies to you moughoun.....
I thought I was going to have to kick your ass.:-D
Moug will do, no need for formality....kick my ass, promises promisesp-)

[Durandal]

That's been going on since this country was founded though.

Not getting the hell taxed out of us. That started this century and the later half of it to be honest. Federal income tax has allowed more corruption than anything else in this nation. It has also allowed us to frivolously throw money at the military and LOTS of other things...like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame a couple million went of fix stuff in the last highway bill).

Corporations rather than JUST having influence are now influencing tax dollar expenditures, no longer a small trough, but one with a seemingly endless content.

You take away the federal income tax and a guarantee a more fiscally responsible government.

[Slug69]

YOu're an ass

No I'm not.

I never insulted you, and doing so on these forums won't get us far.

I admire what you do, especially sending the care packages to the wounded soldiers. I just don't agree with your politics.

This war is wrong and the soldiers need to be pulled out. For christ sake you have the ridiculous situation of Army engineers being guarded by private security firms who earn ten times what the army does. Does this not strike you as being wrong?

[Buckeye67]

Not getting the hell taxed out of us. That started this century and the later half of it to be honest. Federal income tax has allowed more corruption than anything else in this nation. It has also allowed us to frivolously throw money at the military and LOTS of other things...like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame a couple million went of fix stuff in the last highway bill).

Corporations rather than JUST having influence are now influencing tax dollar expenditures, no longer a small trough, but one with a seemingly endless content.

You take away the federal income tax and a guarantee a more fiscally responsible government.

Fair enough, I agree with ya there.

I'd like to add the notion of "career politicians" as part of the "what's wrong" with the US. Originally, they were farmers, businessmen, teachers who were politicians as well. They went to the capitol during the season(s) when they weren't needed to manage their private affairs.

Now, politicians are rarely seen in the states or communities they represent. Was it John Glenn who didn't even own property in Ohio when he was a senator? It's appalling.

I don't want to say term limits are needed for senators and representatives, but damn if they don't make that position hard for me to justify.

[Slug69]

Don't drag me into your realm of BS man.

So you aren't posting better than me?

Thanks a lot.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. But you just came out and said it, you didn't want the US to invade Iraq because of how much moolah it would cost, not because it was patently wrong, but because of how much money it's costing.

In terms of the percentage of the economy it is a piss ant amount compared to what the commitment was in Vietnam. And while the US was in Vietnam they put people on the moon.

Yeah, my realm of BS is different, that much is true.

[titget]

No I'm not.

I never insulted you, and doing so on these forums won't get us far.

I admire what you do, especially sending the care packages to the wounded soldiers. I just don't agree with your politics.

This war is wrong and the soldiers need to be pulled out. For christ sake you have the ridiculous situation of Army engineers being guarded by private security firms who earn ten times what the army does. Does this not strike you as being wrong?

Well, I will not resort to 2year old name calling anymore....we could argue about these issues all day and get nowhere., so I will just not respond to any of your posts, and save us a lot of effort....Okay?

[Futile Talisman]

Well, I will not resort to 2year old name calling anymore....we could argue about these issues all day and get nowhere., so I will just not respond to any of your posts, and save us a lot of effort....Okay?

I think/thought he was going to bed............

" Patriotism is the last refugee of scoundrel " Now that is a bumper sticker answer if I have ever heard one.

Good night

[Slug69]

I think/thought he was going to bed............

" Patriotism is the last refugee of scoundrel " Now that is a bumper sticker answer if I have ever heard one.

Good night

The point, as I always understood it, is that appealing to loyalty to one's own country is the act of a demagogue, of one who will say and do anything to gain public approval and political power. Primarily, it casts those who disagree as unpatriotic, hostile to the institutions and interests of their own country. Honest disagreement becomes character assassination. Underneath the appeal is the exploitation of bigoted or prejudiced feelings of the masses.

The quote is famous, but I don't know the context in which it was said. I do know that there is nothing wrong with patriotism itself. Your country is, after all, the land you call home. To do what is best for your country is to do what is best for your home.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Dam people, give the kid a break. A couple of you need to look a little deeper into what he’s asking and notice the good intention here. He asks some very good questions with complex answers.

Patriotism is still around; it’s just not in vogue with the media mass marketing folks at the moment or the politicians who really hate being told what to do by the average Joe. Most patriotic civilians are acting subdued being sick and tired of the incessant badgering and hounding of the faithful knee jerk shock troops that go running about verbally bashing our brains in with the popular slogans, half truths, omissions of detail and outright bassackwards analysis of the shiny, happy, utopian, “open your mind” and “do what I say”, social collective group think.

Go out and read some Ann Rand… p-)

[Mastermind]

I am comforted by the post of Easy*...it tells me patritoisim and love of country are not dead in the younger set. I have read other places some similar comments from young people.

Here is my take on the situation in USA: We have developed something of a burgeoning monster of a nation. We have the reigns of an economic engine that is so much larger than anything else in the entire world it scares the bejesus out of people...our own people included.

The new age is the age of information. Every person is empowered by the massive availability of information...any information...it is free and it is in abundance...if information were water it would make Niagra Falls look like a faucet drip in comparison. Thus, people have the ability to see past all the smoke and mirrors the government and "Big Thinkers" like the media moguls put up to control the way of the world. People now understand that almost all wars and international aggression were casued by heads of state bumbling and blundering around in global politics...people had very little to do with all the past international violence. Also, history is avaialbe in that flood of information and people are finding out way too mcuh about things that "used to be" but were never told...Thomas Jefferson owned slaves...George Washington had a mistress...Ben Franklin was a womanizer...The American Indians were shafted...Columbus treated the indigent natives like cattle...In other words...history is filled with ordinary people...they were not great people for the vast majority of their lives...and some how, this has led Americans and other nationalities to find reason to lose their awe of their heritage.

Additionally, we have a kind of "disolving" taking place in the world of humanity. People, well fed and in warm, safe homes in Hoboken can tune in and see scared, starving innocent people in Darfur and suddenly, the comfortable people fell guilty and compassionate for the uncomfortable people...they then energize that compassion, in an attempt to assauge their own displace guilt, with efforts to force their governemnt to "do something about it"...this example is just one of tens of thousands...why Clinton did his famous pass through Africa apologizing for slaver of the early centuries and showering the Africans with 11 billion dollars of US tax payers money...and got away with it! Thus our energy and national resolve and internal compassion is being liquidated in unbelievably huge ways....all ta tthe expense of our own self respect, self relaince, self honor and self protection. for other nations see this and immediately want to get on the band wagon...takeing Zimbabwe and her current troubles as a modern example...Mugabe saw the largess of the United States and deduced that the reason his country was not getting any attention was becasue they were too prosperous...so he destroyed his won nation, threw his own people to the starvation demons in order to deman equal treatment .... the pity is, damn few folks realise the damage they did when they insited on all that "Aid to Africa"....Americans have come to be a kind of "Clubsy Giant" trying to help...but he keeps right on stepping on all the little folks he is trying to help and never even realizing the carnage he leaves in his path...

AS for Americans losing their patriotisim..don't you believe it. Our politicians may have lost it...our media certainly has lost it...and probably our teachers and some civil servants....but, the dirty truth is, folks still understand what it is that makes this nation great and they fight every day to preserve it. Yeah...we may lose that fight...Hell, we almsot certainly will eventually lose it. but, not today, not this year. America has lots of fight left in her and she is in no worse condition today than she was in 1938...don't forget, one of the largest membership populations of Nazis in the world existed right in New York city at that time. Isolationists were able to put a hundred thousand people in the streets in protests at will...the largest parade ever conducted in Washington was conducted by the KuKluxKlan!

Things only look tough....you want to see tough...just wait until another nut case comes to America with a bomb or a gas or a germ....The world has not seen "tough" and "Patriotic" America yet. They better hope they never do.

[XShipRider]

Mastermind - nice rant --- bullseye!

[alex423]

Okay, there a few things I have been wanting to say.


The complete ignorance and lack of patriotism of some Americans around me is shocking to me. It seems they really don't care about the United States of America the country which has given them and myself so much. I hear stuff like "the USA should pull out of Iraq" and "have you seen Michael Moore's movie?" I tell them the about how AQ is in Iraq and we are fighting the same type of people we are in Afghanistan and how Osama Bin Laden wants the US to leave Iraq. And some of them will even say they agree with Osama (!!!!!!!).

What has happened? I remember the days when they would have really inspiring recruiting posters but now they just talk about college money (they are starting to go back to the patriotic theme but you know what I mean...) In ROTC the recruiters come in and all they talk about is college money, benfits and stuff like that.

To all the anti-war people I tell them about Giap and his remarks about the protesters after tet. They still don't care and call and tell me I am going against free speech. I explain to them that the anti-war movement encourages the insurgents we face in Iraq and they still don't care.

Will America ever return to its proud state like it was in the 40s or 50s. Will Americans ever again bond together to defeat a enemy that seaks to destroy us??

What are your thoughts?

Totally agree about rotc, why cant they just teach some patriotism.

There are still, and I pray, always will be good people like you which hold things together.

[alex423]

Things only look tough....you want to see tough...just wait until another nut case comes to America with a bomb or a gas or a germ....The world has not seen "tough" and "Patriotic" America yet. They better hope they never do.[/quote]

right on p-)

[Hellfish]

No offense guys, but patriotism and chest thumping won't give you career skills, food on your table or clothes on your back. The whole reason the armed forces are an all volunteer force is because the benefits can't be beat. Hell, I went to college for free because of it. If we didn't tout the educational benefits, far fewer people would enlist. Why delay college or serious employment for 2-4 years while you serve in the Army for low pay and crappy hours? For patriotism?

[Hellfish]

Things only look tough....you want to see tough...just wait until another nut case comes to America with a bomb or a gas or a germ....The world has not seen "tough" and "Patriotic" America yet. They better hope they never do.
right on p-)[/quote]

Because you're gonna be there right on the frontline, pulling people out of the debris or in some ****hole country hunting down those responsible? No, you're gonna be the one with the flag sticker on your car (which, I note, you're too young to have) and buying "Freedom Fries" for your date with Sally Rottencrotch. Get back to us when you're 18+ and you guys have grown up a bit and you've got actual responsibilities.

[Laworkerbee]

Agreed...with Hellfish and FT

But I will say I'd take a kid (sorry young adult) with your passion and patriotism for this country any day over these pathetic little sh^ts I see that piss on everything our flag stands for...it's nice to see a 16 year old who cares about his country......Your heart is in the right place Ea$y8

Well said Bridget

[HOLLiS]

Well said Bridget


2x............................ Well Said Bridget.

[XxDualityxX]

Easy also man back in WWII to when there was all that patriotism most people had a direct connection with soldiers over in europe and wished them the best through patriotism. The army is volunteer now and people feel that making money is important which it is to some extent but there will never be the patriotism like WWII. No thanks to John Kerry or jane hanoi fonda, who frowned upon pow's yet exerscised praise to men who tortured them.

[CPLHUNTER]

right on p-)

Because you're gonna be there right on the frontline, pulling people out of the debris or in some ****hole country hunting down those responsible? No, you're gonna be the one with the flag sticker on your car (which, I note, you're too young to have) and buying "Freedom Fries" for your date with Sally Rottencrotch. Get back to us when you're 18+ and you guys have grown up a bit and you've got actual responsibilities.[/quote]

I guess my question would be this:

Why the hell does it take a terrorist attack for people to be "patriotic"??? Are we that out of touch?

I remember after 9/11, everyone had flags flying and bumper stickers and was full on "Freedom Fries"

What do you see now? Apathy, negativity and an overall lack of moral.

America is the most impatient nation in the world. We need the answers now the solutions now. We are nation born on instant gratification.

Why is this? The f***ing media! The biggest propoganda tool known to man. Americans see a few news reports about Iraq or the situation in A-Stan and suddenly we need to pull out, we made a mistake...etc...etc.

Has anyone heard of holding the course? Does this whole nation have ADD?

It would be great if there was such as thing as accurate reporting or fair balanced news. But there is not.

I can't trust CNN's report on an issue. I have to go to fox, msnbc and others to try to glean the real truth and strip away the layer of crap that prevades our news. Political goals and means have taken away the truth.

That is sad.

Ea$y-8 makes a good point. Maybe he doesn't have the life experience that you have or me, but he is making a good point and there is no need to trash him over it. I feel his frustration

[Trouble]

Fair enough, I agree with ya there.

I'd like to add the notion of "career politicians" as part of the "what's wrong" with the US. Originally, they were farmers, businessmen, teachers who were politicians as well. They went to the capitol during the season(s) when they weren't needed to manage their private affairs.

Now, politicians are rarely seen in the states or communities they represent. Was it John Glenn who didn't even own property in Ohio when he was a senator? It's appalling.

I don't want to say term limits are needed for senators and representatives, but damn if they don't make that position hard for me to justify.

Very much a large part of the problem.

The root of the problem with the US is that "We The People" have not been doing our part to defend the Constitution.

We have allowed our elected officials to change the Constitution and the inturpretation of the laws in ways that are not favorable to us. We dropped the voting age to 18 allowing people with very little experiance, education, and little at stake or to lose to make decissions that effect those of us who do. We allowed Senators to become elected instead of appointed, Congressmen are allowed to give themselves pay increases, they are also allowed to exempt themselves from the very laws they write to govern us. We refuse to not re-elect the same guy for the rest of his life even if he is worthless and a crook. We refuse to hold our elected officials to the letter of the law, namely the US Constitution. We don't demand the repeal of Temparary laws such as the Federal income tax, which was ment to pay for war expences. We have made them Princes, Dukes and Barons this is not the wawy it was ment to be.

Then we have stopped teaching our childeren history, civics, economics, and citizenship. We have said it is not important for our offspring to know where they come from, what they are entitled to (Bill or rights), and how to preserve there rights and freedoms.

To Easy8:

This is the problem with America. We have lost ourselves by our own choices. We will only find ourselves by our own choices aswell. You fell very strongly about this, that is good, now keep your zeal, temper it with knowledge, gain wisdom, and become a leader and help in the work to find ourselves again.

Your Countrymen need you !

[Hellfish]

I'm all about having a Confederacy. Seriously - the feds should only ensure the safety and well being of the States, not tell the States what they can and can't do. If California votes to legalize medical marijuana, why the hell not? Likewise for Oregon and euthanasia, Kansas and Intelligent Design, etc.

[Ea$y-8]

Why don't you serve as an example big man (Ea$y-8), join and get shipped to Iraq. its very easy to sit in a warm home in front of a computer with a bag of chips and a beer, waving the stars and stripes and complaining about lack of patriotism.

I would join up if I could. I have to wait until I complete HS. So don't call me "armchair operator" or complain about how I am not in the military.

[Hellfish]

But as of right now, you are an armchair operator.

[CPLHUNTER]

I would join up if I could. I have to wait until I complete HS. So don't call me "armchair operator" or complain about how I am not in the military.

I wonder if koutch was or is in the military?

You don't have to be in the millitary to have a point of view on the subject you started

[Hellfish]

Maybe not, but it doesn't hurt to cement your position as non-hypocritical.

[CPLHUNTER]

But as of right now, you are an armchair operator.

I always thought an armchair operator/commando or whatever was someone who had no experience/knowledge in the subject they talked about and was basically full of sh1t and tried to influence decisions even though they have no clue and have no research.

Ea$y-8 is simply voicing an opinion and is not trying to give out tatical military advice or things of that nature

[Hellfish]

No, but it essentially makes the central question of this debate an uninformed one.

[Trouble]

I would join up if I could. I have to wait until I complete HS. So don't call me "armchair operator" or complain about how I am not in the military.


My best advise to you would be this.

First see my previous post.

Obtain a copy of the Declaration of Independance, US Constitution, Federalist Papers, and a copy of the US Constitution prior to any Amendments other than the Bill of rights. Then reseach the indian treaties. Our Country did do some things that were very dishonorable and I am sure still does. Each of us should seek to learn from these wrongs and not to repeat them.

Next Read all of the above.

Then while you have the time. Work in a grocery store, then in a heavy construction job, take college classes, even try and start a small personal business, get involved with your local government, serve in the Armed Forces.

Build your experiance then you will be ready to help this country. .

I am very happy to see that love of ones Nation is not a thing of the past, but let that love be tempered with wisdom and knowledege not blind faith or mindless obediance...... good luck, and God's speed.

[TriggerHappy]

What has happened to the USA?? (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1639339#post1639339)

Well in few words.

What goes Up, goes down.

It happened with the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the French, the British, the Germans,.......... and YES it will happen to America too at some point.

It is just the way it goes.

[Hellfish]

Your avatar makes me very happy.

[CPLHUNTER]

Well in few words.

What goes Up, goes down.

It happened with the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the French, the British, the Germans,.......... and YES it will happen to America too at some point.

It is just the way it goes.

Yes, it will sooner or later. I can only wonder what it will be that brings it down?

[TriggerHappy]

Yes, it will sooner or later. I can only wonder what it will be that brings it down?
We will find out in few decades or may be less.
I am sure I am going to live in my lifetime some great geopolitical changes.

[Laworkerbee]

Your avatar makes me very happy.

I found it seriously distracting, almost as bad as Moug's old one

[TriggerHappy]

I found it seriously distracting, almost as bad as Moug's old one

Seriously now.
I have guys pm me for my avatar.
I know it takes some point from my seriousness but i just can't help it.
I like it and i think i will keep it for some days.

[annihilation]

We will find out in few decades or may be less.
I am sure I am going to live in my lifetime some great geopolitical changes.

True, should be interesting. I do hope the United States comes out well though. As much as I oppose this war in Iraq. I do love my country very much.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I love all the "America as Empire" comments -a supposition which then allows one to predict our downfall. America has never claimed ascendancy, has never asserted it's domination of the globe. Instead, our supposed supremacy is used as an excuse by those who wallow in their own inadequacy to explain away their failure. "The man is keepin' me down"

America is doing just fine, and thanks to our ability to embrace and profit from change, will continue to do so. I would agree that there's somewhat of a lack of patriotic feeling in some segments of society - but that's just because life is so goddamned easy here. What's there to fight about? Is there really a war on? I can go to the store and pick from 50 different kinds, colors, textures and scents of toilet paper - how bad could things be? Why do we need an Army at all? Some people are just very disconnected from reality.

[Laconian]

The feeling, or wanting of the feeling, of "good old patriotism" is in itself somewhat of a misnomer. Even during the American Revolution only about 1/3 of the population supported the war. 1/3 remained loyal to the Crown and the other 1/3 supported who would help them out the most or tried to stay out of the way. Militia troops left the field for non-pay or because their term was up or because they were just fed up.

The American Civil War was not much different, there were draft riots in several cities. Desertions were common (in both armies) and the North and South civilians tired of the war as it drug on. World War I had no racing to arms, Wilson was elected for a 2nd term under "He kept us out of War." Whether or not it was correct, Roosevelt designed US involvement in WWII. Although there was much anger and "patriotism" following Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt did not get a unanimous vote for war, either. There were plenty of draft dodgers for The Big One & Korea, not just Viet Nam. Our involvement in Korea was not all that popular, either.

There have always been those that march to the sound of the guns, just as there have always been those that go when you call them and those that run when you call them. I think the only difference now is that the media has created the hype more now than before.

[MPNFL]

i think my thoughts on this can be best summed up by this quote (i dunno who said it, and sorry if someone has already posted it on this thread):

"It's the soldier not the reporter who gives you the freedom of the press. It's the soldier not the poet who gives you the freedom of speech. It's the soldier not the campus organizer who allows you to demonstrate. It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves the flag, whose coffin is draped with the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag".

if that makes sense? haha maybe i'll reply when i can clear my thoughts more

[Vandervahn]

...
"It's the soldier not the reporter who gives you the freedom of the press. It's the soldier not the poet who gives you the freedom of speech. It's the soldier not the campus organizer who allows you to demonstrate. It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves the flag, whose coffin is draped with the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag". ...
No intention to offend, but I always chuckle when I read these naive assessments of what a "soldier" stands for. It doesnt matter what motivates an individual person to become a soldier. The task of SOLDIERS however is to defend/enforce the interests of the nation (represented by the government) he has pledged allegiance to (or the company, if some PMCs have it their way in the future).

This is all what being a soldier is about, its the hammer of the executive and soldiers are indeed only pawns of their political lead. A soldier per se doesnt protect any freedoms a society has granted itself. "Freedoms" are a compromise in the interest of a stable society, and no soldier has ever set anyone "free". Soldiers can only destabilize a current ruling body so much that a shift in the order of a society, perhaps including more "freedoms", becomes possible.

[Roids]

Agreed...with Hellfish and FT

But I will say I'd take a kid (sorry young adult) with your passion and patriotism for this country any day over these pathetic little sh^ts I see that piss on everything our flag stands for...it's nice to see a 16 year old who cares about his country......Your heart is in the right place Ea$y8

Hey, I say that stuff all the time and I get no credit :p

Mastermind has got a dot on it though, usually when people do not have to fight for their needs and recieve anything they want, they will of course will be idealistic instead of realistic. Part of the reason we more now(some anyways) have a lack of patriotism is because we so successful.

[Roids]

Easy8, your from New York, correct?

[MPNFL]

No intention to offend, but I always chuckle when I read these naive assessments of what a "soldier" stands for. It doesnt matter what motivates an individual person to become a soldier. The task of SOLDIERS however is to defend/enforce the interests of the nation (represented by the government) he has pledged allegiance to (or the company, if some PMCs have it their way in the future).

This is all what being a soldier is about, its the hammer of the executive and soldiers are indeed only pawns of their political lead. A soldier per se doesnt protect any freedoms a society has granted itself. "Freedoms" are a compromise in the interest of a stable society, and no soldier has ever set anyone "free". Soldiers can only destabilize a current ruling body so much that a shift in the order of a society, perhaps including more "freedoms", becomes possible

not that i disagree with ur point, but u don't address what a nation would be like if they didn't have soldiers to "destabilize" a ruling body so that freedoms could be possible

[Ea$y-8]

Easy8, your from New York, correct?
I wish I lived there. I am from Virginia but I live in NC.

[EsoognomEhT]

Will America ever return to its proud state like it was in the 40s or 50s. Will Americans ever again bond together to defeat a enemy that seaks to destroy us??

I take it you aren't black then

[Dalamara]

Will Americans ever again bond together to defeat a enemy that seaks to destroy us??

Probably, if an enemy that can actually hurt us rears its head.

How much damage can terrorists actually inflict on us?

You don't see Americans lined up at the recruiting stations because the threat isn't as dire as you make it out to be. As much as the media would want us to think otherwise most people realize that terrorism and Iraq aren't that big of threats. Even if we had one terrorist bombing a month in the U.S.(which would be a huge number) what actual damage is that doing? Call me morbid, call me cold, but a few people dying doesn't effect things on the grand scale of it. Look at Israel, rockets, mortars, bombs go off on a daily basis and people are living life just fine.

Our way of life is not threatened. Our safety and security is not threatened for the most part. You have a helluvalot higher chance of dying in a car accident then you do from terrorism.

Post this thread when a Muslim army has landed on the beaches of Florida and then I'll give it some merit, but as of now I'd say our country is pretty healthy.

[TheStorm]

I love all the "America as Empire" comments -a supposition which then allows one to predict our downfall. America has never claimed ascendancy, has never asserted it's domination of the globe. Instead, our supposed supremacy is used as an excuse by those who wallow in their own inadequacy to explain away their failure. "The man is keepin' me down"

Exactly.

I take it you aren't black then

WTF is that supposed to mean? Did he ever call for the return of segregation or other forms of discrimination? As a white (I presume) Brit, you don't know jack sh!t about discrimination in America. So why don't you stop making a fool out of yourself?

[Belrick]

Open to debate as this is my opinion.
But from what i've read of history, the likes of George Washington and co would of picked up there muskets and shot at the likes of GWB and any who stand beside his brand of mutant American pride and patriotism.

While that is conjecture on my part what isn't is that my Grandfather fought and killed f**kers that conquer nations under false pretenses for economic gain.
Stick that in ya pipe and smoke it.

[ed316]

The feeling, or wanting of the feeling, of "good old patriotism" is in itself somewhat of a misnomer. Even during the American Revolution only about 1/3 of the population supported the war. 1/3 remained loyal to the Crown and the other 1/3 supported who would help them out the most or tried to stay out of the way. Militia troops left the field for non-pay or because their term was up or because they were just fed up.

The American Civil War was not much different, there were draft riots in several cities. Desertions were common (in both armies) and the North and South civilians tired of the war as it drug on. World War I had no racing to arms, Wilson was elected for a 2nd term under "He kept us out of War." Whether or not it was correct, Roosevelt designed US involvement in WWII. Although there was much anger and "patriotism" following Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt did not get a unanimous vote for war, either. There were plenty of draft dodgers for The Big One & Korea, not just Viet Nam. Our involvement in Korea was not all that popular, either.

There have always been those that march to the sound of the guns, just as there have always been those that go when you call them and those that run when you call them. I think the only difference now is that the media has created the hype more now than before.

x2. Well said Laconian.

There have always been people who were "unpatriotic" and saw it that they must resist want they percieve as a wrong. We are human and humans have free will. Not everyone is going to tow the same line.

[remo williams]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMongoose
I take it you aren't black then






WTF is that supposed to mean? Did he ever call for the return of segregation or other forms of discrimination? As a white (I presume) Brit, you don't know jack sh!t about discrimination in America. So why don't you stop making a fool out of yourself?

It means that the time period (40's-50's) weren't exactly great times for minorities(read Blacks etc) in this country. Even though they too were called upon to serve and defend this nation. While he didn't call for a return to attitudes and practices of that time (which were legal), there are those who would still very much like to see them re-instituted. It's perception my friend, and unfortunately those times while golden to some, were hell for others. It's a stain on our country's record. And maybe one day we'll put some stainmaster to it.p-)
As for what happened to this country well, apathy coupled with a your way yesterday attitude reinforced by advances in technology, reinforced by a quick earlier victory in Iraq 1. Add in a long period of time since we fought in a long highstakes conflict (ww2) and time of healing from one that didn't go so well (Vietnam) and this is what you get. It's unfortunately going to take something awful big and nasty to happen to get people looking out for everyone's interests, and realize that they ARE the same as their own.

[EsoognomEhT]

^ Remo has put it perfectly.

[Ea$y-8]

I take it you aren't black then

No, I am not black what does this have to do with the thread?

[remo williams]

No, I am not black what does this have to do with the thread?
Nothing and everything...read my post.

[TheStorm]

It means that the time period (40's-50's) weren't exactly great times for minorities(read Blacks etc) in this country. Even though they too were called upon to serve and defend this nation. While he didn't call for a return to attitudes and practices of that time (which were legal), there are those who would still very much like to see them re-instituted. It's perception my friend, and unfortunately those times while golden to some, were hell for others. It's a stain on our country's record. And maybe one day we'll put some stainmaster to it.p-)

As someone who is half-Black and half-Hispanic, I'm quite aware of racist policies, including those that prevailed before the Civil Rights movement, thank you very much. The point is, there were good things as well as bad things in the old days.

[EsoognomEhT]

No.
Saying I take it you aren't black then indicates if you were black and alive at that time, it was hardly a proud and great time. Indeed I would find it very hard to describe it as being a 'good' time, no matter how patriotic people were about their country, when something as terrible as segregation existed.

Take away your dislike for me, and think about it, you will clearly see it is not idiotic and inane. And infact it makes perfect sense.


as remo said, myself using his neutral stance to prove my point;
and unfortunately those times while golden to some, were hell for others. It's a stain on our country's record. And maybe one day we'll put some stainmaster to it.p-)

[alex423]

I would join up if I could. I have to wait until I complete HS. So don't call me "armchair operator" or complain about how I am not in the military.

same here, its not my fault to what my age is.

[TheStorm]

No.
Saying I take it you aren't black then indicates if you were black and alive at that time, it was hardly a proud and great time. Indeed I would find it very hard to describe it as being a 'good' time, no matter how patriotic people were about their country, when something as terrible as segregation existed.

Now that you've elaborated, I understand the point you were trying to make.

[ElHombre]

As someone who is half-Black and half-Hispanic, I'm quite aware of racist policies, including those that prevailed before the Civil Rights movement, thank you very much. The point is, there were good things as well as bad things in the old days.

the 'good things' tended to accrue to those who were white and male. all others got to bask in their glow. *sarcasm*

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

the "problem" with America is that there has always been "problems" with America and there always will be. we're just the squeakiest wheel as of yet and we're heard the most. why do you think we generally operate in a constant state of surplus/deficit, thats just the way it is. war, terrorism, illegal immigration, corporate scandal, social security, dying social services, rising cost of health care, the right v. the left, rising gas prices, etc...i see it as a natural part of the ebb and flow, times are hard now but will be caught on the upswing in the future.

the main problem is that America is notorious for letting things go till the brink of collapse before anyone decides to notice/do anything about it. this in turn makes everything seem as if it is so "dire." anyhow just my thoughts and now i will sit back and watch people rip them apart.

[asch]

back to original blue words of Easy, Asch have a phrase to say:

it's evolution, baby. (c)
society always a self-configured mechanism.

[Indianer]

Where do you want to start with the problems in America???

We have two political parties that are more or less dead in the water; but no one seems to be willing to actually admit that the Democrats are non-existent anymore - as are the republicans it seems (at least to me).

The information age has played a big part in America's situation today.

The lack of strong leaders in America is a difficult and serious problem.

We need a strong leader to smack this country around and put it on its feet, ala Teddy Roosevelt and his billy club.

A lack of news in this country. I truely hate to say this, because I am a reporter by profession, but the US's news is owned by 3 very large corporation - that control what is said and heard. Basically...the only difference between US news and Commie news, is that the Communists understood that the garbage they were spoon fed was propaganda.

Then there is the constitution aspect, as you guys already mentioned...
- America was built upon lies unfortunately, as the fore fathers were all rich white individuals that were educated (who wanted education to remain elite).

But... every that was said is BS. "All men are created equal" huh...tell that to the blacks or any other ethnic group in the US.

And then there is the so called seperation of church and state...
The notion that a man must marry a woman is a religious view. Personally I don't care who a man or woman marries...it's there darn choice.

Politicians waste all their time on stupid ****.
One group screams bloody murder about pro-abortion and the other screams the opposite. It's an utter waste of time, and frankly it's UNIMPORTANT.

Giving Money out to people...
Personally...I don't feel the need to hand Israel money anymore. It's not the size of an army that matters...it's the skill. Skill is dependent on motivation (and belief in a cause)...if they can't defend themselves, it's meant to be.
I have a problem with the US spending money on ongoing violence if they lack the will power to end the stupidness (basically it's a waste of our money to support them). The money could go to use in America - fighting real American problems.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY...it's the biggest problem IMHO is American culture itself. I am currently working on a assignment about how the American "melting pot" is a load of S H I T.
For example...ever hear of an American nowadays? I've heard of African-Americans, Native-Americans, Irish-Americans, Asian-Americans...but no Americans. America is tearing its identity apart by choice...because people just have to define themselves by some means other than American.

When somebody asks me what I am...I say American.

And then there's this whole terror garbage.
How come everyone refers to the attacks as 9/11? I mean I don't remember ever hearing from a veteran about 12/7. If they really cared, they'd say remember September 11th; instead of making it sound catchy like, oh say, 7/11.

Besides...Bin Laden is an idiot. If your aim is to bring America to its knees, you can't do it, because nothing in America is centralized. I mean they attacked an economic center, and the Pentagon (which is in itself not a vital target).

Another ongoing problem with America, is the stereotypes it suffers from. Recently while I was in France, I was harassed for not knowing french. I don't mind the harassment - but it wasn't well based, because I explained to the gentleman that I decided to study a more important language called Russian (which got him to can it).
America needs to deal with the way foreigners perceive us; while I didn't feel the need for my harassment - the frenchman's assumption was not exactly poorly founded - Americans tend to feel all high and mighty and our education is something is pathetic. Honestly the man had a good point.

If we had a smarter public...instead of the gimme gimme, we want more public we have now; people might actually understand that the government much get funding (which means taxes) to get stuff done. But that'll never dawn on anyone so who am I kidding.

Then there's the whole immigration thing...don't get me started.

[Indianer]

And...Personally, I think we should pull out of Iraq.
Not because the war is going bad. Not because this war is trying the American patience.

I think we should get out because my memory from school days in history recall that the Brits abused Iraq under Imperialization. If anyone is guilty for the mess in Iraq during the sadam era, it's the brits - and it ought to be almost 3,000 British soldiers; not American ones.

The British are one of our best Allies...and I respect them, I just think Iraq is more their problem than America's (assuming Iraq actually was a problem).

History has shown time and time again that a non-standing army is nearly impossible to defeat. If we left now, and reinstated Sadam Insane...we'd have a very clear enemy with a standing military - which makes them (and him) much easier to dispose of - instead of pampering them.

Besides that...who said civil war was a bad thing? If it weren't for the civil war...there would still be slave owners here in the US more than likely. Unfortunately, the Civil War was necessary because it tested the resolve of the people of the United States.

If Iraq were to have a civil war, without us interferring, they'd solve their problems eventually. I know what I am saying is by no means humane...but it is what is going to happen eventually (the civil war), so why not just get it over with?

On the flip side...I think the large difference between deaths of US and UK servicemen in Iraq has got something to say...and it ain't that the US sent over more troops. It's that the British apparently have better policy, than our American shoot-em-up, and ask questions if they still alive afterwards (since no one can shoot without an optical device nowadays, I doubt there'd be many left to question).

The US military is not learning its mistakes from previous wars. As far as problems with America, with the specific angle of the war in Iraq...that is the main problem.

the Intelligence misinformation is a load of crap. If we had a centralized intelligence Agency here in the US, we would be giving up our rights to something along the lines of the Gestapo.

[Durandal]

Fair enough, I agree with ya there.

I'd like to add the notion of "career politicians" as part of the "what's wrong" with the US. Originally, they were farmers, businessmen, teachers who were politicians as well. They went to the capitol during the season(s) when they weren't needed to manage their private affairs.

Now, politicians are rarely seen in the states or communities they represent. Was it John Glenn who didn't even own property in Ohio when he was a senator? It's appalling.

I don't want to say term limits are needed for senators and representatives, but damn if they don't make that position hard for me to justify.

Couldn't agree more. Especially, when they spend just as little time actually working in D.C..

[Durandal]

No, I am not black what does this have to do with the thread?

The great times of the 40s and 50s were a bit lack luster if you were not white.

A completely valid point.

[Vandervahn]

Originally Posted by Ea$y-8
I would join up if I could. I have to wait until I complete HS. So don't call me "armchair operator" or complain about how I am not in the military.

same here, its not my fault to what my age is.
No, your age is not your fault.

But you both support a concept of unconditional patriotism that is neither sustainable, reasonable nor justified. Apart from that Easy-8 was referring to a shiny image of the "good old days" - but these WERENT good days. These were days of fear, of ideological purges and oppression. Today, the mere possibility that people have no fear in expressing a view that is uncherished by the official line is a sign that these are the best times there have EVER been!

Also, modern volunteer militaries have ALWAYS recruited with the help of post-service benefits, simply because the amount of persons that join the military SOLELY because of a sense of "duty" or "patriotism" is minimal - and rightfully so! Only a limited number of soldiers can become carreer soldiers, and the vast majority WILL have to make a life on the open market after their few months and years of service. In the end, being a soldier is a job like any else.

Rifleman Joe Schmoe might love his job, he might be proud of putting himself in harm´s way for his nation, but in the end it is to a large part only a job that you do to make a living, and thats why the military also has to offer him a perspective for the "afterlife".

[Pvt.Anderson]

...Thus, America is losing its cultural identity, and with that goes any kind of devotion you would have to said nation or identity.
at least thats my thought...

Well , what culture do you mean ?

[HOLLiS]

Interesting how some think "patriotism" is a bad word.

I think narcissism is a bad word

[Greek soldier]

Chauvinism is a bad word. ANd the bad thing is that many tend to consider that patriotism = chauvinism :cantbeli:

[Pvt.Anderson]

I guess my question would be this:

Why the hell does it take a terrorist attack for people to be "patriotic"??? Are we that out of touch?

I remember after 9/11, everyone had flags flying and bumper stickers and was full on "Freedom Fries"

What do you see now? Apathy, negativity and an overall lack of moral.

America is the most impatient nation in the world. We need the answers now the solutions now. We are nation born on instant gratification.

Why is this? The f***ing media! The biggest propoganda tool known to man. Americans see a few news reports about Iraq or the situation in A-Stan and suddenly we need to pull out, we made a mistake...etc...etc.

Has anyone heard of holding the course? Does this whole nation have ADD?

It would be great if there was such as thing as accurate reporting or fair balanced news. But there is not.

I can't trust CNN's report on an issue. I have to go to fox, msnbc and others to try to glean the real truth and strip away the layer of crap that prevades our news. Political goals and means have taken away the truth.

That is sad.

Ea$y-8 makes a good point. Maybe he doesn't have the life experience that you have or me, but he is making a good point and there is no need to trash him over it. I feel his frustration



Well I think u should go and tell this a mother that lost her son / or some children that lost their father , for a war that was fought , appearantly not for the WOMD , and the oh-so dangerous iraq which would be dangerous for the USA ( note : geographical survey of US youth , posted some days ago ) ... BUT maybe gathering strength in the region and oil reserves .
What a nice way to lose a relative , wouldn't you feel used or abused ?

[Weasel]

Interesting how some think "patriotism" is a bad word.

I think narcissism is a bad word

My happyness does not depend on a piece of soil and I don´t feel my home country superior to any other country. So why should I "love" my country?

For me patriotism is a empty phrase.

[Pvt.Anderson]

My happyness does not depend on a piece of soil and I don´t feel my home country superior to any other country. So why should I "love" my country?

For me patriotism is a empty phrase.

Well , being proud of one's country( being patriotic ) is the most important thing to have a nice going state .

You can love your country for what it archived , it's history , the language , the culture , and of course , the beer and 100 more examples ... the most important thing is that it is the country you have grown up , you must feel connected to it .
IMO a nation is hold together by patriotic feeling , cause without it people just wouldn't care about their country and let it fall down ... very dangerous at all

Being patriotic doesn't necessarily mean you think your country is superior to any others

This leads to proposes like " Let's translate our national anthem to turkish and allow it to be sung by turkish imigrants , at a football match for exanmple "
whata ****in joke

[Weasel]

Well , being proud of one's country( being patriotic ) is the most important thing to have a nice going state .

You can love your country for what it archived , it's history , the language , the culture , and of course , the beer and 100 more examples ... the most important thing is that it is the country you have grown up , you must feel connected to it .
IMO a nation is hold together by patriotic feeling , cause without it people just wouldn't care about their country and let it fall down ... very dangerous at all

Being patriotic doesn't necessarily mean you think your country is superior to any others

This leads to proposes like " Let's allow to sing our national anthem in turkish "
whata ****in joke
I have no problem with your point of view but for me it´s different. If today I would move to another country and everybody is nice and gentle I can have these "patriotic" feelings there, too. I did not participate in the achievements of my current country, it´s only a coincidence that I was born here and not 10.000 miles away in another country.

[Adz]

No, your age is not your fault.

But you both support a concept of unconditional patriotism that is neither sustainable, reasonable nor justified. Apart from that Easy-8 was referring to a shiny image of the "good old days" - but these WERENT good days. These were days of fear, of ideological purges and oppression. Today, the mere possibility that people have no fear in expressing a view that is uncherished by the official line is a sign that these are the best times there have EVER been!

Also, modern volunteer militaries have ALWAYS recruited with the help of post-service benefits, simply because the amount of persons that join the military SOLELY because of a sense of "duty" or "patriotism" is minimal - and rightfully so! Only a limited number of soldiers can become carreer soldiers, and the vast majority WILL have to make a life on the open market after their few months and years of service. In the end, being a soldier is a job like any else.

Rifleman Joe Schmoe might love his job, he might be proud of putting himself in harm´s way for his nation, but in the end it is to a large part only a job that you do to make a living, and thats why the military also has to offer him a perspective for the "afterlife".

Forgive me, but I'm tired and tipsy. Whats that got to do with him being too young??

[Vandervahn]

Forgive me, but I'm tired and tipsy. Whats that got to do with him being too young??
Nothing. My post was clearly directed at the romantic views of patriotism, "the good old days" and how recruiting should work these two have presented earlier in this thread, attitudes for which they were criticized by others as "armchair operators".

I am NOT going to say they dont know what they are talking about because of their age, but I guess everyone knows that especially in the phase of adolescene personal views change very easily, and that one is quick with a deterministic evaluation of a situation that doesnt look at the bigger picture.

[Javehn]

My happyness does not depend on a piece of soil and I don´t feel my home country superior to any other country. So why should I "love" my country?

For me patriotism is a empty phrase.


You are a prime example of pussifed person that Eurabia has in stocks now . Being a part of Ethnogenez has become a part of human nature sence the Neolitic age . If you ask why you should love your country - which is not piece of land , mind you - you are nobody .
You deserve exactly what you get right now .
Just as a self note . You are probably on of those persons , who'll get bitchslapped and say it is his own fault rofl .

[HOLLiS]

Old bumper sticker, "American, Love it or Leave"

That has multiple meaning, Blind love is stupid and only exist during the "puppy Love stage"

I read it as, America, love it enough to make it better, or leave.

Blind patriotism is stupid too, the blind belief in anything is stupid. every country needs people to stand up and do what is right, support what is right, help move the country into a better future.. those that just ride along, do nothing for anyone else and suck off what the country has to offer are nothing but parasites.

All of us stand on the shoulders of the great men and women who preceded us. They had the courage, conviction, foresight to drag humanity out of the stone ages.


edited to add, we can substitute the WORLD for country/America

[CSAR]

You are a prime example of pussifed person that Eurabia has in stocks now . Being a part of Ethnogenez has become a part of human nature sence the Neolitic age . If you ask why you should love your country - which is not piece of land , mind you - you are nobody .
You deserve exactly what you get right now .
Just as a self note . You are probably on of those persons , who'll get bitchslapped and say it is his own fault rofl .

lol, MY COUNTRY STRONG!!111eleven!

You are aware, that nationalism has been a big thing only since 18th century? Thank god we are getting rid of it in Europe today, it has propably done more harm than good.

[Weasel]

Old bumper sticker, "American, Love it or Leave"

That has multiple meaning, Blind love is stupid and only exist during the "puppy Love stage"

I read it as, America, love it enough to make it better, or leave.

Blind patriotism is stupid too, the blind belief in anything is stupid. every country needs people to stand up and do what is right, support what is right, help move the country into a better future.. those that just ride along, do nothing for anyone else and suck off what the country has to offer are nothing but parasites.

All of us stand on the shoulders of the great men and women who preceded us. They had the courage, conviction, foresight to drag humanity out of the stone ages.


edited to add, we can substitute the WORLD for country/America
Good post. Especially this sentence:

I read it as, America, love it enough to make it better, or leave.

Btw, a country also needs the obstitutionists. Temporisers are counterproductive.

[Bacilluspolymyxa]

You are a prime example of pussifed person that Eurabia has in stocks now . Being a part of Ethnogenez has become a part of human nature sence the Neolitic age . If you ask why you should love your country - which is not piece of land , mind you - you are nobody .
You deserve exactly what you get right now .
Just as a self note . You are probably on of those persons , who'll get bitchslapped and say it is his own fault rofl .This coming from someone whose government just F**ked over some of its citizens over some land.:)

[Futile Talisman]

Old bumper sticker, "American, Love it or Leave"

All of us stand on the shoulders of the great men and women who preceded us. They had the courage, conviction, foresight to drag humanity out of the stone ages.


edited to add, we can substitute the WORLD for country/America

x2 great post, especially the ideal that we must recognize and never forget that we enjoy today what others bled and died for yesterday.

Certain names come to mind instantly, say Doctor King, still yet any "Patriot" in colonial times, the framers of the Constitution, women suffragets, the list is long.

Of course, anyone who has the worn the uniform of this great nation. We are not perfect, and the Founding Father's knew this, thus our constitution is a living document that can be amended through time.

That is what makes me proud, those great men and women Hollis spoke about knew they might make mistakes and thus we have the freedom to constantly strive to make this nation better.

If you don't want to participate in that process, you are free to leave, alot more people want to get in than want to get out.

FT

[titget]

Nice Posts FT and Hollis...very true:)