SUSAT replacement?

[Yimmy]

According to Jane's Defence the UK is upgrading the SA-80 to have new optics, which I assume by which they mean a SUSAT replacement.

Anyone know any news on it?

[Beer Monster]

Link or article?

[Yimmy]

No link, its a few weeks old and has moved off Jane's front page I think.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Interesting ... ... shame you hadn't asked the same question then and posted a link. If it was only a couple of weeks ago, perhaps your browser history will still have the link.

[Swedish_Marine]

SUSAT is a pice of sh*t. My experience with SUSAT is that you constantly need to zero it on the range even if you treat the weapon like a newborn baby, because the slightest nudge will have it out of place.

[Geezah]

Any rumours of what they might be looking at?

Trijicon??????

[MrScruff]

Something a bit iffy about a sight that instructs you to move upwind of it if it breaks ;)

[bluffcove]

yet vaguely reasuring that should you run out of dangerous things on your rifle, Bullets and bayonets, You can still hurl the sighting unit into the enemys trench and not only concus them with a solid lump of "heavy" but make them infertile at the same time. :D multitool!

[Yimmy]

http://jdw.janes.com/

"UK assault rifle to receive lighter, improved sight
The UK armed forces' L85A2 (SA80A2) assault rifle is to undergo another transformation as the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) starts negotiations to replace the ...
28-Apr-2006"

http://www4.janes.com/subscribe/jdw/doc_view.jsp?K2DocKey=/content1/janesdata/mags/jdw/history/jdw2006/jdw14110.htm@current&Prod_Name=JDW&QueryText=

[Ian H]

The article isn't available, its subscriber only.

Sounds interesting, would you mind posting it in full?

[Yimmy]

If I could afford to subscribe to Jane's, I would be a rich man. Hence my asking here for information on it!

[Spud]

UK assault rifle to receive lighter, improved sight
Andrew White Jane's Land Forces Reporter
London

The UK armed forces' L85A2 (SA80A2) assault rifle is to undergo another transformation as the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) starts negotiations to replace the L9A1 weapon sight.

The UK MoD's Future Infantry Soldier Technology (FIST) programme office wants an "improved and lighter" system to replace the United Scientific Instruments L9A1 Sight Unit Small Arms Trilux (SUSAT), currently in use with the SA80A2.

Industry sources said the UK MoD favours the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight (ACOG) TA31RCO 4 x 32 sight, produced by US aiming systems specialist Trijicon. The deal could have a potential value of up to GBP200 million (USD357.8 million).

In 2000, the SUSAT was exempt from arms specialist Heckler & Koch's (H&K's) GBP92 million revamp of the SA80.

The UK MoD contracted H&K to modify some 200,000 SA80 assault rifles and L86 Light Support weapons, with improvements including a new hammer, cocking handle, gas plug and firing pin. Monthly deliveries to the UK MoD of 4,000 SA80A2s started in December 2001 and the contract is due for completion 2006.

Trijicon's Military Division manager, Shaun Rategan, said: "We cannot comment on quantities or type. The FIST programme has tested and evaluated our ACOG and conveyed an interest in future business."

ACOG is currently favoured by the US Special Operations Command, including Green Berets, US Navy sea, air and land (SEAL) commandos and US Army Rangers as well as the UK's special forces. Designed for use with the M16 series of assault rifles, it is seen as a very robust sight despite being 137 g lighter than the 417 g SUSAT.

Other features include dual illustrated reticle, enhanced adjuster caps and chevron reticle and crosshair. A deal could also include the purchase of simple scissor-action mounts.

Since H&K's improvement programme, the SA80A2 has had "isolated difficulties", according to a UK National Audit Office report in December 2003, although post-operational reports indicated a general acceptance that the SA80A2 is effective and reliable.

In 2005, Trijicon won a USD660 million contract to provide Rifle Combat Optics (RCO), a modified version of the ACOG, for the US Marine Corps' M16 assault rifles.

The deal initially comprised 104,000 scopes, worth USD610 each, with an additional option for the US government to buy a maximum of 800,000 RCO scopes over the five-year contract period.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Thanks Spud.

Well the preference of the ACOG comes as nor surprise, especially as it s already in use on some/most of the L119A1s in service.

[akmarksman]

I bet there's a M1913 rail kit gonna be thrown on those guns..and I bet even some AIMPOINTS will make their way onto a L85

[Little J]

So if adopted, when will we start seeing the troops with these new scopes?

[DeltaWhisky58]

Depends on what work is necessary to fit the ACOGs - will it be a unit level modification, or will they have to go to depot or even manufacturer. If they come up with a mount that is a straight swop with the SUSAT, I guess it'll just be a case of swap and zero plus a bit of training no doubt.

[Geezah]

I wasn't too impressed with the Reflex IIs but the ACOGs are a nice piece of kit.

[Sabre]

ACOGs are nice combat sights, though I find that the reticule's ranged aiming marks are difficult to use. I find it a tad confused to focus on the other aiming marks and tend to use the 100 reticule for all ranges, aiming off as necessary (at least for combat shooting, on a range practice it is easier to use the correct crosshairs). The SUSAT has always been a great range sight, but it is let down by it's weight, problems with maintaining a zero and the fact that the minimum zeroed range is 300m.

[Scrim]

I know everyone has optical sights now. But were the Brits one of the first countries to have an optical sight as standard on an Infantry weapon? SUSATs been around since what 85 or so?
I got out of the USMC in 2002 and the only optical sight I ever saw was the old MkII Eyeball.

[Yimmy]

Before the UK adopted the Sight Unit Small Arms Triulx we had the Sight Unit Infantry Trilux on the SLR, but I don't know how widely it was issued.

Can someone post or point me to a picture of a ACOG's recticle please?

I can't say I have ever found the SUSAT to lose its zero, but most of my shooting has been with iron sights anyway.

[Geezah]

As requested, lots of different reticles;)
Optics, Mounts, and Sights (http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=264481)

[ClydeFrog]

Did I get that right? The Trijicon optics deal (200 million pounds) is worth more than twice as much as the upgrade from A1 to A2 (90 million)?
Wow... those SUSATs better really suck that much as to justify a 200 million expense just for switching from one 4-times optical sight to another... or did I miss something?

I'd also be interested what the "isolated difficulties" of the upgrade program were... does anyone know the details?

[Doug97]

I believe there was a problem with the safety catch, but that's been fixed now.

See here:

http://pages.videotron.com/drhoust/History_of_the_SA80.htm

[kayaker]

And I heard that the SUSAT was almost unbreakable!

[Little J]

Here's a link to the scope mentioned in the article:

http://www.trijicon-inc.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=476&back_row=1&categoryID=3

[marktigger]

hopefully the $200 million is an error and the C8+sight has been mistakenly ordered in suficient quantities to issue it to us all!

[DeltaWhisky58]

That's about as likely as a fish on a bike at present! ;-)

[Hydro]

hopefully the $200 million is an error and the C8+sight has been mistakenly ordered in suficient quantities to issue it to us all!



The day that crateloads of C8 and ACOG's turn up at my unit will be the day I expose myself on national TV :)

[DeltaWhisky58]

Well, I'd say that your big public moment might be a bit in the future, you can put the old man away now! ;-)

[Hydro]

Well, I'd say that your big public moment might be a bit in the future, you can put the old man away now! ;-)



Are you spying on me? Oh God, they can see through the computer screens!

[DeltaWhisky58]

Are you spying on me? Oh God, they can see through the computer screens!

Heck, the secret's out - the new higher level of moderation! ;-)

[Royal]

And I heard that the SUSAT was almost unbreakable!

It is.

Unless it takes a ricochet p-)

[andreen]

What I don't understand are way they din't go for a M1913 rail on the "top" when they did the A2 upgrade.

L85A2 with the new aimpoint comp:M3, :)

[Einsamer Wolf]

I found a *nice* picture

http://www.army.mod.uk/linked_files/Infantry/060321_FIST2_Soldier_w225.JPG

[dacanadianbomb]

It is.

Unless it takes a ricochet p-)

Better the sight than the soldier :-)

[Little J]

I found a *nice* picture

http://www.army.mod.uk/linked_files/Infantry/060321_FIST2_Soldier_w225.JPG

Any chance of a hi-res?

[Jake M]

I don't understand why they are doing this now. Surely the L85's lifespan is now anywhere from 5-10 years- is there really a pressing need for a new optic for this weapon? Why not just wait and put that £200 million towards a new weapon and optic optimised just for it.

I really don't get the need for a new sight for a weapon on the verge of being replaced- what if they get a brand new weapon in five years or so which has an incredibly advanced optic built into it?

[DeltaWhisky58]

They won't be getting a new weapon in five years - more like the middle third of the next decade, that's why.

[Jake M]

So the L85 will be in service for maybe another 10 years. What problem does the SUSAT have that it needs replaced NOW, rather than waiting for the upgrade when they go to a new weapon system?

I'm assuming that it will take a year or two for this deal to through too. So what advantage is gained by upgrading now. Wouldn't it make more sense to see what tech is available when we select a new rifle?

[bluffcove]

The tritium only has a half life or 12.5 years, so most of the sights are only half as bright now as when they were first issued. Why they cant just re-issue a load of new susats I dont know, but the individual pieces on the weapons are becoming redundant as time passes.

They need to put out a tender to trade now in order that a replacement is found by the time the sights are inoperable.

(2p)

[Jake M]

Thanks for the answer.

[I love Rachael Leigh Cook]

AFAIK the SUSAT uses a similar external mounting and adjustment system as our Elcans. I've only fired a few shots through the L85 the mount seems to be somewhat more robust than the Elcan, but if they are half as bad as our Elcans then there's not a moment to lose in replacing them. Of course our leadership have their heads so far up their asses we won't be seeing ACOGs till 2050. We've replaced the Elcan with like 6 different "revisions" since 93 and it's still a POS.

[bluffcove]

The term squaddie proof should only ever be used sparingly. But Ive never even thought about being able to damage a Susat, The way you guys talk about sights breaking and needing sturdier items highlights just how the designers of the Susat got it right. If anything having sights graduated to less than 300 would be nice. but the battle sight and 4xoptic are great to use.

[akmarksman]

ditch the SA80/L85 and get G36s?
I think the ACOG fits better over the SUSAT..less moving parts..

[bluffcove]

Are there moving parts in a susat?

[DeltaWhisky58]

ditch the SA80/L85 and get G36s?
I think the ACOG fits better over the SUSAT..less moving parts..

What planet do you live on? These things take time - the L85 too nearly 20 years or more to reach service!

[Beer Monster]

Never realised the Swedish Army used the SUSAT as well ....

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/FNC/AK5_SusatRightA.jpg

With a pretty heft NV device that fits on top too ...... .....

http://www.soldf.com/images/s_kdn_ak5.jpg

[Resurrection]

Where do you come from? We've used it ever since the AK 5 was introduced. Designated AK 5B.

[Beer Monster]

Where do you come from? We've used it ever since the AK 5 was introduced. Designated AK 5B.

Obviously not Sweden! :) (UK)

I was aware that Oman had bought limited numbers and I was also aware that Spain had a few (although I've never seen photos).

Does Sweden have any plans to replace it?

[Resurrection]

Obviously not Sweden! :) (UK)

I was aware that Oman had bought limited numbers and I was also aware that Spain had a few (although I've never seen photos).

Does Sweden have any plans to replace it?

Yeah there are rumours... no mention of any specific replacement though.

[EsoognomEhT]

I was reading some of the instructions for if a susat breaks in the armoury a while ago, its something along the lines of putting it (quickly!) in a biscuit tin. :|


before you grow another head.
Feel sorry for whoever wants a choccy digestive though..

[kayaker]

close the door and walk away...

[Doug97]

What planet do you live on? These things take time - the L85 too nearly 20 years or more to reach service!
And then another 20 years to fix ;)

[Demigod-17]

I was reading some of the instructions for if a susat breaks in the armoury a while ago, its something along the lines of putting it (quickly!) in a biscuit tin. :|


before you grow another head.
Feel sorry for whoever wants a choccy digestive though..

yeh, thats because its a Radioactive Hydrogen Isotope
shame, i liked SUSAT

[Catch22]

Both SUIT and SUSAT contain small quantities of encapsulated Tritium (or Trilux, as the name Sight Unit Infantry, Trilux, or Sight Unit Small Arms, Trilux implies) for illuminating reticle in night conditions. Many modern scopes, have the same Tritium in them, most versions of ACOG too. Tritium is a low-radioactive component, relatively harmless, unless you swallow it or something. So don't get too excited with all the radioactivity thing, we had the same affair with iron night sights for the Tantal and Beryl - OH MY GOD ITS RADIOACTIVE!!! SECOND CHERNOBYL, PUT IT AWAY!!!11!11!

Learn first, spread the gossip second (whole section on tritium gun sights):
http://physics.isu.edu/radinf/tritium.htm

[Jake M]

I took a fall once and my rifle bore the brunt of it- as I was wheeled into the sickbay one of the pins holding the SUSAT was broken and it was hanging off my weapon. When the medic treating me saw that he had a mild panic attack, thinking that he was in the presence of radioactive material.

Still find it odd that they're going to the trouble of a completely new sight instead of just replacing the tritium.

[Demigod-17]

Still find it odd that they're going to the trouble of a completely new sight instead of just replacing the tritium.

that would seem to be the cheapest thing to do, but after the SUSAT have been drained they need to be treated and sterilised, and this takes time and lots of money(although 200M for some 200K~ Sights), its a shame though, i liked the Reticle on the SUSAT

[EsoognomEhT]

Well, its certainly pretty to look at in the dark

[Kotov]

Has there been any discussion from soldiers using the ACOG? As in soldiers who would have been trained with the SUSAT? Also, because there is a maintenance period for the SUSAT, is the rifle fitted with another scope in the meantime? Does the MOD have to have 2 scopes for every weapon? I know there would always be spares but is there an absolute necessity to have twice the amount?

[muttbutt]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/tangman/DSC00265.jpg

Notice the EOtech fo the AGL.

[Kotov]

christ!

What's going on with that? Excuse my ignorance but that dual sights right?:oops:

[EsoognomEhT]

Madness.......

[Kotov]

The rear sight is a crosshair I take it, and the forward window is red dot sight maybe?

[Ubar]

The rear sight is for aiming the rifle
The forward sight is mounted on a platform to the left hand side, for aiming the UGL

Rocket science in action guys...

[Kotov]

I've never held or a fired a real gun, not to mention an SA80, so excuse me for asking about the fundamentals of this setup.

I bow down to your extensive knowledge and am forever indebted to your god like greatness :fork: